@worksequalsalvation The discipline of biblical criticism has been around since the 17th century and never arrived at your Jesus Myth conclusions. Despite using scholarly Methods as Textual , Source & Form criticism, , Rhetorical & Narrative criticism, historical, Psychological &, Socio-scientific & Postmodernist criticism & Feminist exegesis, they seem to have MISSED this point! You should either- 1/ turn academia UPSIDE DOWN with your amazing revelations or- 2/ STOP READING DAN BROWN NOVELS!
I cant wait until 2 thousands years from now. People will say MLK or anyone connected with CRM never existed. And the CRM happen on its own. Or maybe there say Ghandi never existed. Because a religious cant possibly do anything good. Well that is if your glorious atheist boring utopia happens. Which i doubt. Living a boring Atheist Utopia would only be slightly better then death. Not because you dont believe in god. But because you all are dreadfully boring people that talk like robots.
Ἰησοῦς (Gk for Jesus) appears to be a transliteration of Yeshu (ישו in Hebrew and Aramaic) which may be an acronym for Y'mach Sh'mo V'Zichrono (may his name and memory be wholly blotted out). Worse, Philippians 2:6-11 seems to imply that Ἰησοῦς (Jesus) is the NEW name that was granted to the resurrected and ascended god-man. If any of this is relating to Jesus is true, we really are looking into the abyss.
@berrywoke Your right about that, Jesus is definately a myth and this can be proved when one knows who wrote both the old and new testaments, I know who wrote them along with other works of this philosopher and whom the allegoric Jesus represented any why; Easter is the most subversive holiday ever invented which assumes a return which obviously could never take place,
@modernrocks I'll give you a clue; It was one of the greatest persons of all time, First of all the term Christ represents a symbol and the Jesus charachter has no last name; The term christ also represents everyones paternal senses, we all know what paternal feels like which has a great deal to do within how charachter and karma work and is somewhat a chess match. Like the song from Yes, "I've seen all good people" any resistence can and does beget force"
@DrFruedienslip You said you knew who wrote the bible, im quite the bible scholar these days so i called you bluff, obviously you dont know a great deal about this. The bible was written over many thousands of years by ancient hebrew followers(not jew-ish) at least 40 men put pen to 'paper' yes it is inspired by a higher spirit, but its best to have a more in depth understanding than that.
@modernrocks Your simply mistaken here and I have proof; It wouldnt make any sense that fourty persons would use the same linguistical prose, any persons write differently, besides that there are genealogies which obviously were made up because Adam Eve Cain Abel are fables, so there are no historical merits here, so read between the lines on that one because no one could have accounted for 14 generations sequentially or have that sort of transcended insight; Be a good detective,
@DrFruedienslip Why write any book? To exemplify any and all social cause based within any and all paternal senses, its not who but what anything means which would be anything consistent within human nature and especialy competition much as we know of within what has been taking place forever, like Cain measuring his countenance to his invisible deity, he didnt get the assurance from him and he became roth and then slew Abel, and went to any land of Nod, what does this exemplify?
@DrFruedienslip Are you saying you dont believe there was a first man and woman? even if you think you came from apes or chimps you must be aware there was a first man and woman, because thats who all the human race came from.
@modernrocks Well how do you decide what makes a human and what does not, it was a very gradual change. Thus it really is impossible to say there was an single original human being.
PS: evolution is not a beleif, nowadays its a fact.
@DrFruedienslip Ok, whats your proof that 40 people did not write the bible?
Do you really think Christ was a myth? Are you aware 99.9% of scholars even atheists, know for a fact he lived and was crucified in the first century.
@modernrocks No they dont, none of us were there, and most scholars only get what they think they know from what others thought they knew, you will never debunk me Ever" because I know the truth. So what has Jesus Christ ( a myth) done for anyone but screw up the world with stupidity and ignorance? Its obvious that 40 persons couldnt possibly write n the same linguistical style, think about that a little bit more. Your statement is false and pretended information you've made up...
@DrFruedienslip Furthermore, if one reads Paul to the Corinthians II it is easy to note that any charachter of paul exemplified its philosophical statements far more superior than the parables of any Jesus parts in the play, it is easy to note that no one could ever write anything down with accuracy anyones lifes history or day to day experiences, did Jesus have a scribe while giving the sermon on the mount? It was prewritten and never took place because it was all written by the same hand.
It doesn't really matter to an atheist if Jesus existed or didn't. Christians place so much importance on the asserted fact that Jesus was a real historical figure because their entire philosophy depends on it being true. Considering that the world has a majority of Christians and Muslims (who also assert the existence of JC), we have to question this bravely and stare truth in the eyes. I don't think you should feel like a conspiracy theorist if you don't think he existed. Question everything.
@TheWinstonOrwell The calandar was based within this mythical figurehead which is another reason we all have been conditioned to this fake history; when we all likely know that none of the written miracles are even physically possible, Immaculate conception, turning water into wine or stones into bread, or any idea or belief that any man named god is real when science can and should provide physical evidence that evolution is the only reasonable exemplification.
@DrFruedienslip Does anyone truly want to be controlled by stupid persons whom only believe what they are told to believe? Its the stupidest thing in the world to think that anyone is going to be saved by another person, when its just a fact that we dont know where any of this goes other than population growth will eventually lead to our demiwhen there is nothing left of this planets resources; 7 billion and growing exponentially due to all human ignorance, and especially hollywood
I'm not sure how one could conclude that Holding won anything here. He flip flops all over, dismisses things without providing adequate detail, and contradicts his own rationale for why Humphreys is not using an adequate methodology...by using the very methodology being questioned...to question it. I get the impression Holding is just able to confuse people into thinking he's got a point, just by talking in such an inconsistent, pseudo-factual manner.
@preson777 Neither of these men, Humphreys or Holding, are REAL scholars with a Phd from a university and teach at one of the Ivoy league or state universities. They are authors and have websites but both men are AMATURES!! But I am aware that ALL of the Phd level authorities hold that Jesus did exist but the liberal/skeptical ones reject his divinity and hold that about 85 percent of Jesus' words and deeds in the Gospels are myths.
@JDOANY I've been interested in this debate for over 10 years since a friend gave me a copy of "The Jesus Puzzle" by Earl Doherty which REJECTS a historical Jesus and insists that the "TF" and the James passage in Josephus are forgeries etc and has one who is agnostic about the religion in which he was raised I thought Doherty was really on to something big but I was troubled by the fact he is an amature so I turned to the Phd level skeptical/critical NT scholars and found only ONE.
@JDOANY And that ONE was Robert Price, Phd but Price DOUBTS Jesus existed and likes Doherty's book where as several of the Phd scholars I've written don't have any use for amatures such as Doherty, Humphreys, Acharya S etc. Doherty, Humphreys etc REJECT a historical Jesus and insist the TF is a forgery. But many of the top NON Christian scholars dealing with Josephus find it DID come from the hand of Josephus & sometime in the past it suffered a minor interpolation from perhaps a Christian.
@JDOANY I find Dr. Goldberg's website wwwdotjosephusdotorg to resolve the problem along with a book that leading Josephus scholar Louis Feldman, Phd suggested to me (Feldman, a Jew, finds the TF to be mostly from the hand of Josephus) which is by Alice Whealey, Phd who offers the most indepth investigation into the matter I've seen. But Dr. Goldberg is not a Josephus scholar. His Phd is in physics. That is a bit troublesome to me but his research into how the TF originally read is compelling.
@JDOANY I have books by Ehrman, Borg, Edwards, Crosson, Mack, Tabor etc..ALL skeptical agnostics and atheists who have a Phd in New Testament and Christian origins and the Goldberg website wwwdotjosephusdotorg, research into the church fathers, Paul, Tacitus etc has convinced me that there is NO QUESTION Jesus existed and that we know a few words he said in his teaching. But if these Phds are to be believed, most of Jesus words are fabricated and most of the stories are myths.
@boblackey1 So, you have provided evidence that Ehrman, Borg, Edwards, Crosson, Mack, and Tabor feel that there is no question about Jesus' existence. You have not provided evidence that this is the view of all scholars, nor have you really provided any specific quantification for majority opinion. In addition, majority scholarship opinion cannot be used as an absolute qualification for the credibility of an argument. Otherwise, we'd never have progression would we?
@JDOANY If the MAJORITY of critical/doubting scholars who deal with New Testament and Chrisitian origins do NOT believe Jesus did exist as a man and we know a few of his teachings and words, then WHO ARE the experts who do NOT?? I can't find them can YOU?? I find just one, Robert Price, Phd "I tend to reject a historical Jesus" "There may be a man named Jesus behind the last stainglass window stripped away by critical scholarship but we can know little about him". Any others???
@JDOANY I've already read Salm is he is wrong that Nazareth didn't exist in the first century. Several "atheists" who are interested in this subject including Richard Carrier, Phd (Carrier doubts Jesus existed but is not a NT scholar) on his blog and admitted that evidence such as Nazareth being listed as nearby villages on a stone tablet from a first century Jewish house of worship settles the debate.
@JDOANY Only someone like Humphreys who has an agenda to shoot down Christianity because he hates it, religion in general and the view God created the uiniverse would say Jesus never existed. Even Price has a bitterness toward Christianity so talk about bias creeping into to one's work!! There is too much evidence that someone named Jesus had a Jewish "Kingdom of God is at hand" movement that also involved his brother James, Peter and John to take such a radical view. The evidence says Jesus did
@boblackey1 I understand that a large amount of scholars are firmly certain that Jesus existed. However, this being the case is not what one would call "a fact proving Jesus' existence". I hear you say there is "too much evidence" that Jesus existed...but I've yet to hear you provide what it is. There may be evidence that someone named Jesus existed, but there is definitely no evidence that would provide a declaration of certainty to Jesus' existence.
@boblackey1 It also makes no sense to attempt to separate Jesus, as portrayed in the Bible, and Jesus as he might have existed as a historical figure. The two are not separable concepts. The only applicable characteristics we have for THE Jesus is that which is found in the Bible. Remove those characteristics, and you are no longer arguing about whether Jesus existed. You are then simply arguing that some man existed...but who is he?
@JDOANY Well it may make NO sense to you but critical scholars around the world have been doing EXACTLY that for well over 100 years. Actually it is surprising that you make such an odd statement. Seperating the historical Jesus from the Christ of faith found in the gospels is EXACTLY the mission of the Jesus Seminar. Mack's book "Who Wrote the New Testament, the Making of the Christian Myth" was written for that purpose. Indeed non-Christian scholars have a good idea what Jesus said & did.
@boblackey1 The qualifications of Jesus are provided in the Bible. If a person does not possess the characteristics of the figure in question...how are we arguing about the original question? It would be different if the original reference, or "source" for the figure we are discussing came from secular writings...but, it doesn't. That comes later. It seems likely that someone, or rather many people, just may be forcing the "Jesus" persona on non-Jesus persons.
@JDOANY The oldest document that speaks of Jesus I know of is Paul's letter to the Galatains circa 50C.E. In it Paul admits that he fussed with the Jerusalem Christians over doctrine (they knew Jesus in the flesh, Paul did not) and Paul says he met Peter and Jesus' brother James. This letter was NEVER intended to be in the Bible. Paul didn't consider himself to be writing scripture. I've always thought it telling that James & Peter never told Paul Jesus was virgin born or did Paul not report it?
@boblackey1 It might also be important to note that Ehrman was a fundamentalist, and may possibly have a predetermined bias. In fact, it is likely that most people would have this bias, considering that for centuries it's rarely been questioned, although it has been. I find it mysterious that some number of profoundly intelligent men have commented on the fact that Jesus likely did not exist...including Bertrand Russell.
@JDOANY Bertrand Russell in the book "Why I'm not a Christian" that I have says he is not sure Jesus ever lived and if he did he didn't do all the things the gospels say he did. I know of NONE who are certain Jesus never existed except amatures such as Kenneth Humphreys or Earl Doherty or Acharya S. I am aware that a few qualified people question if Jesus ever lived but that is something Humphreys will not do. I've written a good number of NT scholars and ALL laugh at Humphreys or don't know him
@boblackey1 I did not state that Bertrand Russell said that he knew for certain whether Jesus did or did not exist...but he does quite plainly state that he find it unlikely...which is different from just saying "I don't know"...as you've put it. I take the same stance. While I do not know, I find it unlikely. In any intellectual pursuit, I prefer to be concerned with facts. You seem to keep getting into emotional appeals. Goodbye.
@JDOANY Well facts are what I'm dealing with ONLY!! No emotional appeals for me. But how is one to list all the facts and evidence and the people who knew Jesus in the flesh and the people who knew them in this limited space??? Do you have any interest in reading Burton L. Mack, Phd's book "Who Wrote the NT, the Making of the Christian Myth" or the work of Robert Miller, Phd of the Jesus Seminar or Bart Ehrman, Phd's "Forged". Have you visited wwwdotjosephusdotorg? Or only amatures such as Ken H
@JDOANY Had to answer the door. I know of NO quote from Russell that indicates Russell was almost convinced Jesus never existed. My impression from "Why I Am Not A Christian" is that he was a 50/50 and like all skeptics who are not on a HATE mission toward religion, was an "almost" athiest which is actually an agnostic. That is exactly what most athiests are. Actually an agnostic. I'm an agnostic but I'm 70 percent sure God exists. Russell"I wouldn't die for my beliefs. I might be wrong".
@boblackey1 - I'm not interested in engaging in further conversation with you, but thought I'd help you out since you seem to be having trouble: from Bertrand Russell's "Why I am not a Christian" - "Historically it is doubtful that Christ ever existed at all, and if he did we do not know anything about Him..." As I said before, I do not know that Christ did not exist, so your point is moot. I have not taken a stance...I just find it highly doubtful that such a man existed.
@JDOANY Russell was wrong. Skeptical sholars know some of Jesus' teachings such as "The Kingdom of God is within you"," is at hand", the Sermon on the mount. That Jesus was executed by Pointus Pilate and became the leader of a Jewish cult call "Nazarenes" and was likey Baptised by John the Baptist and his brother in the flesh James took over after his execution. That Paul hijacked the movement & introducted new doctrine about Jesus, but not the virgin birth,that came from dreams.
@JDOANY The skeptical scholars are not dogmatic that Jesus was executed between two theives. That may be myth. Generally reject 85 percent of Jesus' quotes in gospels. Virgin birth hatched in the gospels after Paul's death. Other doctrine such as December 25th, Sunday worship day, Trinity etc are post gospels. Skeptical experts hold Jesus thought he was the Messiah but had no divine power, was not the son of God and they reject that he rose from the dead. But amature & NUT Humphrey's knows best.
@JDOANY Yes Ehrman use to be a devout Christian and his work in critical scholarship as a New Testament scholar for over 30 years forced him in to being a "doubting Thomas" and Ehrman rejects most of the doctrines of Christianity as myth. Jesus being divine, virgin birth, Son of God, rising from the dead etc. But not that Jesus lived and that we actually have a few of his words in the gospels. Also it is hard to find a skeptical NT scholar who doubts Jesus was executed by Pilate about 30 CE.
@JDOANY But there are other 30 plus year scholars who NEVER left their faith in Jesus and Christianity. Scholars such as Luke Timothy Johnson and N. T. Wright come to mind. Humphreys is not an educated men in that his has a masters or Phd. Plus he is an athiest which is telling. That means Humphreys has a big ego and can rule out the existence of God and any kind of Jesus existing which the gospel writers spun myths about. Humphreys has NO evidence. Only a desire to trash the experts & the faith
@boblackey1 This post has essentially revealed your "anti-atheist" slant...I've not really got much more interest in debating you...considering you fail to debate facts, and only seem to make assertions and provide vague "lists" of some of the scholars that you probably only know about because they are the easiest to find. The world has many, many people (with Phd's) in it. The lack of research on your part is not my responsibility.
@JDOANY My experience with athiests is that they are either movtivated by a hate for God and religion or that they are actually an angostic like me but much closer to being an athiest than me. And everyone I've met who is certain God is folly and religion is horseshit is an egotistical prick with a chip on their shoulder about religion. Humphreys seems to be one. What facts do you want to debate? Pick one and I'm certain I can sustain a historical Jesus or the likelyhood that Jesus existed!
Am I the only one who finds this "Christ on cross" image insulting? I rather doubt that He looked like a runway model with a scratch on his chest while He died. Who is this Messiah? Did He have stain resistant linen? Cat o nine tail resistant body lotion? What type of shampoo did he use? I'd love to get some, because after being beaten, scourged, hair and beard ripped out, and battered beyond recognition,it looks so silky! He was the Redeemer, not the Seducer. :o/
I think that saying that Holding easily beats Humphreys in this debate is a bit of an overstatement. He made some good points but I found him to be a bit off point with some of his remarks. I still agree with his overall position of course, but it seems to me that he could have done a better job in answering Humphreys' assertions. Thanks for all of the great videos!
@worksequalsalvation The discipline of biblical criticism has been around since the 17th century and never arrived at your Jesus Myth conclusions. Despite using scholarly Methods as Textual , Source & Form criticism, , Rhetorical & Narrative criticism, historical, Psychological &, Socio-scientific & Postmodernist criticism & Feminist exegesis, they seem to have MISSED this point! You should either- 1/ turn academia UPSIDE DOWN with your amazing revelations or- 2/ STOP READING DAN BROWN NOVELS!
MegaFloyd100 1 month ago
I cant wait until 2 thousands years from now. People will say MLK or anyone connected with CRM never existed. And the CRM happen on its own. Or maybe there say Ghandi never existed. Because a religious cant possibly do anything good. Well that is if your glorious atheist boring utopia happens. Which i doubt. Living a boring Atheist Utopia would only be slightly better then death. Not because you dont believe in god. But because you all are dreadfully boring people that talk like robots.
Tuber77 2 months ago
Ἰησοῦς (Gk for Jesus) appears to be a transliteration of Yeshu (ישו in Hebrew and Aramaic) which may be an acronym for Y'mach Sh'mo V'Zichrono (may his name and memory be wholly blotted out). Worse, Philippians 2:6-11 seems to imply that Ἰησοῦς (Jesus) is the NEW name that was granted to the resurrected and ascended god-man. If any of this is relating to Jesus is true, we really are looking into the abyss.
EdM021 4 months ago
These Jeasus debates are so stupid and people who continue to belive in all this christian faith bull are just morons.
berrywoke 4 months ago
@berrywoke Your right about that, Jesus is definately a myth and this can be proved when one knows who wrote both the old and new testaments, I know who wrote them along with other works of this philosopher and whom the allegoric Jesus represented any why; Easter is the most subversive holiday ever invented which assumes a return which obviously could never take place,
DrFruedienslip 4 months ago
@DrFruedienslip Who do you think wrote the old and new testaments?
modernrocks 4 months ago
@DrFruedienslip Also, i want to hear who the "allegoric" Christ represented and why?
modernrocks 4 months ago
@modernrocks I'll give you a clue; It was one of the greatest persons of all time, First of all the term Christ represents a symbol and the Jesus charachter has no last name; The term christ also represents everyones paternal senses, we all know what paternal feels like which has a great deal to do within how charachter and karma work and is somewhat a chess match. Like the song from Yes, "I've seen all good people" any resistence can and does beget force"
DrFruedienslip 4 months ago
@DrFruedienslip You said you knew who wrote the bible, im quite the bible scholar these days so i called you bluff, obviously you dont know a great deal about this. The bible was written over many thousands of years by ancient hebrew followers(not jew-ish) at least 40 men put pen to 'paper' yes it is inspired by a higher spirit, but its best to have a more in depth understanding than that.
modernrocks 4 months ago
@modernrocks Your simply mistaken here and I have proof; It wouldnt make any sense that fourty persons would use the same linguistical prose, any persons write differently, besides that there are genealogies which obviously were made up because Adam Eve Cain Abel are fables, so there are no historical merits here, so read between the lines on that one because no one could have accounted for 14 generations sequentially or have that sort of transcended insight; Be a good detective,
DrFruedienslip 4 months ago
@DrFruedienslip Why write any book? To exemplify any and all social cause based within any and all paternal senses, its not who but what anything means which would be anything consistent within human nature and especialy competition much as we know of within what has been taking place forever, like Cain measuring his countenance to his invisible deity, he didnt get the assurance from him and he became roth and then slew Abel, and went to any land of Nod, what does this exemplify?
DrFruedienslip 4 months ago
@DrFruedienslip Are you saying you dont believe there was a first man and woman? even if you think you came from apes or chimps you must be aware there was a first man and woman, because thats who all the human race came from.
modernrocks 4 months ago
@modernrocks Well how do you decide what makes a human and what does not, it was a very gradual change. Thus it really is impossible to say there was an single original human being.
PS: evolution is not a beleif, nowadays its a fact.
TheISLAMisFAKE 3 months ago
@DrFruedienslip Ok, whats your proof that 40 people did not write the bible?
Do you really think Christ was a myth? Are you aware 99.9% of scholars even atheists, know for a fact he lived and was crucified in the first century.
modernrocks 4 months ago
@modernrocks No they dont, none of us were there, and most scholars only get what they think they know from what others thought they knew, you will never debunk me Ever" because I know the truth. So what has Jesus Christ ( a myth) done for anyone but screw up the world with stupidity and ignorance? Its obvious that 40 persons couldnt possibly write n the same linguistical style, think about that a little bit more. Your statement is false and pretended information you've made up...
DrFruedienslip 4 months ago
@DrFruedienslip Furthermore, if one reads Paul to the Corinthians II it is easy to note that any charachter of paul exemplified its philosophical statements far more superior than the parables of any Jesus parts in the play, it is easy to note that no one could ever write anything down with accuracy anyones lifes history or day to day experiences, did Jesus have a scribe while giving the sermon on the mount? It was prewritten and never took place because it was all written by the same hand.
DrFruedienslip 4 months ago
@modernrocks thye KNOW? really now! how do they know? were they there? was it noted down?
TheISLAMisFAKE 3 months ago
@modernrocks LOL
berrywoke 2 months ago
@berrywoke
"These Jeasus debates are so stupid"
And here you are debating.....I guess that makes you stupid.....right?
Sockpuppet2012 2 months ago
@Sockpuppet2012 Wrong because my statement was in no way a debate. It was only a opinion, sooooo who is stupid now??
berrywoke 2 months ago
click here to skip past the first bits 12:05
ndntakeover24 4 months ago
It takes too long for the debate to start. Who gives a damn about their background, we want to learn something and the time is short.
MushroomedAnymore 4 months ago
It doesn't really matter to an atheist if Jesus existed or didn't. Christians place so much importance on the asserted fact that Jesus was a real historical figure because their entire philosophy depends on it being true. Considering that the world has a majority of Christians and Muslims (who also assert the existence of JC), we have to question this bravely and stare truth in the eyes. I don't think you should feel like a conspiracy theorist if you don't think he existed. Question everything.
TheWinstonOrwell 4 months ago
@TheWinstonOrwell The calandar was based within this mythical figurehead which is another reason we all have been conditioned to this fake history; when we all likely know that none of the written miracles are even physically possible, Immaculate conception, turning water into wine or stones into bread, or any idea or belief that any man named god is real when science can and should provide physical evidence that evolution is the only reasonable exemplification.
DrFruedienslip 4 months ago
@DrFruedienslip Does anyone truly want to be controlled by stupid persons whom only believe what they are told to believe? Its the stupidest thing in the world to think that anyone is going to be saved by another person, when its just a fact that we dont know where any of this goes other than population growth will eventually lead to our demiwhen there is nothing left of this planets resources; 7 billion and growing exponentially due to all human ignorance, and especially hollywood
DrFruedienslip 4 months ago
I'm not sure how one could conclude that Holding won anything here. He flip flops all over, dismisses things without providing adequate detail, and contradicts his own rationale for why Humphreys is not using an adequate methodology...by using the very methodology being questioned...to question it. I get the impression Holding is just able to confuse people into thinking he's got a point, just by talking in such an inconsistent, pseudo-factual manner.
JDOANY 5 months ago
Comment removed
JDOANY 5 months ago
Wow. JPH, that was indeed a solid spanking that you handed out.
preson777 7 months ago
@preson777 Neither of these men, Humphreys or Holding, are REAL scholars with a Phd from a university and teach at one of the Ivoy league or state universities. They are authors and have websites but both men are AMATURES!! But I am aware that ALL of the Phd level authorities hold that Jesus did exist but the liberal/skeptical ones reject his divinity and hold that about 85 percent of Jesus' words and deeds in the Gospels are myths.
boblackey1 5 months ago
@boblackey1 - Hey Bob...kindly provide your source for the claim that "ALL of the Phd level authorities hold that Jesus did exist...". Thanks.
JDOANY 5 months ago
@JDOANY I've been interested in this debate for over 10 years since a friend gave me a copy of "The Jesus Puzzle" by Earl Doherty which REJECTS a historical Jesus and insists that the "TF" and the James passage in Josephus are forgeries etc and has one who is agnostic about the religion in which he was raised I thought Doherty was really on to something big but I was troubled by the fact he is an amature so I turned to the Phd level skeptical/critical NT scholars and found only ONE.
boblackey1 5 months ago
@JDOANY And that ONE was Robert Price, Phd but Price DOUBTS Jesus existed and likes Doherty's book where as several of the Phd scholars I've written don't have any use for amatures such as Doherty, Humphreys, Acharya S etc. Doherty, Humphreys etc REJECT a historical Jesus and insist the TF is a forgery. But many of the top NON Christian scholars dealing with Josephus find it DID come from the hand of Josephus & sometime in the past it suffered a minor interpolation from perhaps a Christian.
boblackey1 5 months ago
@JDOANY I find Dr. Goldberg's website wwwdotjosephusdotorg to resolve the problem along with a book that leading Josephus scholar Louis Feldman, Phd suggested to me (Feldman, a Jew, finds the TF to be mostly from the hand of Josephus) which is by Alice Whealey, Phd who offers the most indepth investigation into the matter I've seen. But Dr. Goldberg is not a Josephus scholar. His Phd is in physics. That is a bit troublesome to me but his research into how the TF originally read is compelling.
boblackey1 5 months ago
@JDOANY I have books by Ehrman, Borg, Edwards, Crosson, Mack, Tabor etc..ALL skeptical agnostics and atheists who have a Phd in New Testament and Christian origins and the Goldberg website wwwdotjosephusdotorg, research into the church fathers, Paul, Tacitus etc has convinced me that there is NO QUESTION Jesus existed and that we know a few words he said in his teaching. But if these Phds are to be believed, most of Jesus words are fabricated and most of the stories are myths.
boblackey1 5 months ago
@boblackey1 So, you have provided evidence that Ehrman, Borg, Edwards, Crosson, Mack, and Tabor feel that there is no question about Jesus' existence. You have not provided evidence that this is the view of all scholars, nor have you really provided any specific quantification for majority opinion. In addition, majority scholarship opinion cannot be used as an absolute qualification for the credibility of an argument. Otherwise, we'd never have progression would we?
JDOANY 5 months ago
@JDOANY If the MAJORITY of critical/doubting scholars who deal with New Testament and Chrisitian origins do NOT believe Jesus did exist as a man and we know a few of his teachings and words, then WHO ARE the experts who do NOT?? I can't find them can YOU?? I find just one, Robert Price, Phd "I tend to reject a historical Jesus" "There may be a man named Jesus behind the last stainglass window stripped away by critical scholarship but we can know little about him". Any others???
boblackey1 5 months ago
@boblackey1 You should check out Rene Salm as well.
JDOANY 5 months ago
@JDOANY I've already read Salm is he is wrong that Nazareth didn't exist in the first century. Several "atheists" who are interested in this subject including Richard Carrier, Phd (Carrier doubts Jesus existed but is not a NT scholar) on his blog and admitted that evidence such as Nazareth being listed as nearby villages on a stone tablet from a first century Jewish house of worship settles the debate.
boblackey1 5 months ago
@JDOANY Only someone like Humphreys who has an agenda to shoot down Christianity because he hates it, religion in general and the view God created the uiniverse would say Jesus never existed. Even Price has a bitterness toward Christianity so talk about bias creeping into to one's work!! There is too much evidence that someone named Jesus had a Jewish "Kingdom of God is at hand" movement that also involved his brother James, Peter and John to take such a radical view. The evidence says Jesus did
boblackey1 5 months ago
@boblackey1 I understand that a large amount of scholars are firmly certain that Jesus existed. However, this being the case is not what one would call "a fact proving Jesus' existence". I hear you say there is "too much evidence" that Jesus existed...but I've yet to hear you provide what it is. There may be evidence that someone named Jesus existed, but there is definitely no evidence that would provide a declaration of certainty to Jesus' existence.
JDOANY 5 months ago
@boblackey1 It also makes no sense to attempt to separate Jesus, as portrayed in the Bible, and Jesus as he might have existed as a historical figure. The two are not separable concepts. The only applicable characteristics we have for THE Jesus is that which is found in the Bible. Remove those characteristics, and you are no longer arguing about whether Jesus existed. You are then simply arguing that some man existed...but who is he?
JDOANY 5 months ago
@JDOANY Well it may make NO sense to you but critical scholars around the world have been doing EXACTLY that for well over 100 years. Actually it is surprising that you make such an odd statement. Seperating the historical Jesus from the Christ of faith found in the gospels is EXACTLY the mission of the Jesus Seminar. Mack's book "Who Wrote the New Testament, the Making of the Christian Myth" was written for that purpose. Indeed non-Christian scholars have a good idea what Jesus said & did.
boblackey1 5 months ago
@boblackey1 The qualifications of Jesus are provided in the Bible. If a person does not possess the characteristics of the figure in question...how are we arguing about the original question? It would be different if the original reference, or "source" for the figure we are discussing came from secular writings...but, it doesn't. That comes later. It seems likely that someone, or rather many people, just may be forcing the "Jesus" persona on non-Jesus persons.
JDOANY 5 months ago
@JDOANY The oldest document that speaks of Jesus I know of is Paul's letter to the Galatains circa 50C.E. In it Paul admits that he fussed with the Jerusalem Christians over doctrine (they knew Jesus in the flesh, Paul did not) and Paul says he met Peter and Jesus' brother James. This letter was NEVER intended to be in the Bible. Paul didn't consider himself to be writing scripture. I've always thought it telling that James & Peter never told Paul Jesus was virgin born or did Paul not report it?
boblackey1 5 months ago
@boblackey1 It might also be important to note that Ehrman was a fundamentalist, and may possibly have a predetermined bias. In fact, it is likely that most people would have this bias, considering that for centuries it's rarely been questioned, although it has been. I find it mysterious that some number of profoundly intelligent men have commented on the fact that Jesus likely did not exist...including Bertrand Russell.
JDOANY 5 months ago
@JDOANY Bertrand Russell in the book "Why I'm not a Christian" that I have says he is not sure Jesus ever lived and if he did he didn't do all the things the gospels say he did. I know of NONE who are certain Jesus never existed except amatures such as Kenneth Humphreys or Earl Doherty or Acharya S. I am aware that a few qualified people question if Jesus ever lived but that is something Humphreys will not do. I've written a good number of NT scholars and ALL laugh at Humphreys or don't know him
boblackey1 5 months ago
@boblackey1 I did not state that Bertrand Russell said that he knew for certain whether Jesus did or did not exist...but he does quite plainly state that he find it unlikely...which is different from just saying "I don't know"...as you've put it. I take the same stance. While I do not know, I find it unlikely. In any intellectual pursuit, I prefer to be concerned with facts. You seem to keep getting into emotional appeals. Goodbye.
JDOANY 5 months ago
@JDOANY Well facts are what I'm dealing with ONLY!! No emotional appeals for me. But how is one to list all the facts and evidence and the people who knew Jesus in the flesh and the people who knew them in this limited space??? Do you have any interest in reading Burton L. Mack, Phd's book "Who Wrote the NT, the Making of the Christian Myth" or the work of Robert Miller, Phd of the Jesus Seminar or Bart Ehrman, Phd's "Forged". Have you visited wwwdotjosephusdotorg? Or only amatures such as Ken H
boblackey1 5 months ago
@JDOANY Had to answer the door. I know of NO quote from Russell that indicates Russell was almost convinced Jesus never existed. My impression from "Why I Am Not A Christian" is that he was a 50/50 and like all skeptics who are not on a HATE mission toward religion, was an "almost" athiest which is actually an agnostic. That is exactly what most athiests are. Actually an agnostic. I'm an agnostic but I'm 70 percent sure God exists. Russell"I wouldn't die for my beliefs. I might be wrong".
boblackey1 5 months ago
@boblackey1 - I'm not interested in engaging in further conversation with you, but thought I'd help you out since you seem to be having trouble: from Bertrand Russell's "Why I am not a Christian" - "Historically it is doubtful that Christ ever existed at all, and if he did we do not know anything about Him..." As I said before, I do not know that Christ did not exist, so your point is moot. I have not taken a stance...I just find it highly doubtful that such a man existed.
JDOANY 5 months ago
@JDOANY Russell was wrong. Skeptical sholars know some of Jesus' teachings such as "The Kingdom of God is within you"," is at hand", the Sermon on the mount. That Jesus was executed by Pointus Pilate and became the leader of a Jewish cult call "Nazarenes" and was likey Baptised by John the Baptist and his brother in the flesh James took over after his execution. That Paul hijacked the movement & introducted new doctrine about Jesus, but not the virgin birth,that came from dreams.
boblackey1 5 months ago
@JDOANY The skeptical scholars are not dogmatic that Jesus was executed between two theives. That may be myth. Generally reject 85 percent of Jesus' quotes in gospels. Virgin birth hatched in the gospels after Paul's death. Other doctrine such as December 25th, Sunday worship day, Trinity etc are post gospels. Skeptical experts hold Jesus thought he was the Messiah but had no divine power, was not the son of God and they reject that he rose from the dead. But amature & NUT Humphrey's knows best.
boblackey1 5 months ago
@JDOANY Yes Ehrman use to be a devout Christian and his work in critical scholarship as a New Testament scholar for over 30 years forced him in to being a "doubting Thomas" and Ehrman rejects most of the doctrines of Christianity as myth. Jesus being divine, virgin birth, Son of God, rising from the dead etc. But not that Jesus lived and that we actually have a few of his words in the gospels. Also it is hard to find a skeptical NT scholar who doubts Jesus was executed by Pilate about 30 CE.
boblackey1 5 months ago
@JDOANY But there are other 30 plus year scholars who NEVER left their faith in Jesus and Christianity. Scholars such as Luke Timothy Johnson and N. T. Wright come to mind. Humphreys is not an educated men in that his has a masters or Phd. Plus he is an athiest which is telling. That means Humphreys has a big ego and can rule out the existence of God and any kind of Jesus existing which the gospel writers spun myths about. Humphreys has NO evidence. Only a desire to trash the experts & the faith
boblackey1 5 months ago
@boblackey1 This post has essentially revealed your "anti-atheist" slant...I've not really got much more interest in debating you...considering you fail to debate facts, and only seem to make assertions and provide vague "lists" of some of the scholars that you probably only know about because they are the easiest to find. The world has many, many people (with Phd's) in it. The lack of research on your part is not my responsibility.
JDOANY 5 months ago
@JDOANY My experience with athiests is that they are either movtivated by a hate for God and religion or that they are actually an angostic like me but much closer to being an athiest than me. And everyone I've met who is certain God is folly and religion is horseshit is an egotistical prick with a chip on their shoulder about religion. Humphreys seems to be one. What facts do you want to debate? Pick one and I'm certain I can sustain a historical Jesus or the likelyhood that Jesus existed!
boblackey1 5 months ago
Am I the only one who finds this "Christ on cross" image insulting? I rather doubt that He looked like a runway model with a scratch on his chest while He died. Who is this Messiah? Did He have stain resistant linen? Cat o nine tail resistant body lotion? What type of shampoo did he use? I'd love to get some, because after being beaten, scourged, hair and beard ripped out, and battered beyond recognition,it looks so silky! He was the Redeemer, not the Seducer. :o/
DontFriendInviteMe 11 months ago
I think that saying that Holding easily beats Humphreys in this debate is a bit of an overstatement. He made some good points but I found him to be a bit off point with some of his remarks. I still agree with his overall position of course, but it seems to me that he could have done a better job in answering Humphreys' assertions. Thanks for all of the great videos!
shizfergus27 11 months ago
Humphrey has been creamed.
leviMichealathan 11 months ago
What is interesting is how effortlessly J.T wins the "debate."
GospelHouseKat 11 months ago
Ken Humphrey is a lunatic.
LittleSn00py 11 months ago
@LittleSn00py and you are a moron
Davincimath 7 months ago
@Davincimath You're off your medication again, Ken.
LittleSn00py 7 months ago
@LittleSn00py yea and all you can say is something dumb like that, you sir are such a jack ass
Davincimath 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Davincimath Just take your pills and go to sleep.
LittleSn00py 7 months ago
Its not an interesting question. No true scholar doubts it.
GospelHouseKat 11 months ago
@GospelHouseKat Tell that to atheists.
LittleSn00py 11 months ago
Comment removed
GospelHouseKat 11 months ago