Silly Irish girl. What is so difficult about thinking for yourself and finding your own meaning? If anything, it's unoriginal going for a religion that's a rip-off of a rip-off. Maybe she just said it for the argument but my point still stands... good video anyway.
@Psychonaut1992 and ireland is full of them. she proves dawkins point though cos i bet her daddy was religious and her believing got her treats and rewards.
i met richard yesterday and showed him my theory. he was very impressed and said it was mindblowing. i have posted what happened on you-tube site "un human rights chief highlights australian".
Dawkins summed his attitude perfectly with the answer to the architecture there. hopefully i dont need to explain why so its obvious but my god the man just spews common sense all round. Narrowminded? actually possibly the most open minded and reasonable person ive ever seen
just because you can't prove god doesn't exist doesn't mean the chances are 50/50.. i can't prove purple rape goblins don't exist but they probably don't
agnosticism is a pointless concept. I'm agnostic about Spiderman. there's no evidence to suggest he exists, and there's none to suggest he doesn't. why bother saying you're on the fence?
@odinssverd You can't disprove the existence of beings. That's the problem with atheism. That is why I'm deist. Why sit on the fence? Well, so you don't look like a idiot jumping to conclusions when you have no evidence. Atheism CAN disprove the judeo Christian god and that's why I disbelieve in it. However it cannot disprove the existence of a diety, lack of evidence means I don't support it. I'm deist.
@Water4Jeremiah Oh wait...they ARE having drinks. (HAHA) :D You can't do that on American television! Leave it to the British to teach us responsible alcoholism! Thanks Christopher! :D
The child being atheist or not is a really philosophic and language question. I mean sure a child should not have any labels when it is born into this world as it must decide himself. Then again if atheism means no religious outlooks then a child is a atheist at it has no religion but then again "no religion" is a label....vicious circle. Still we label children by their sex (logical) height, weight and a lot of other stuff so atheist should be a ok label as no child has any knowledge of god.
A new born should not be classified either way. A child should not even be introduced to even the possibility of religion until it possesses the cognitive prowess to understand what is being preached to it.
That was brilliant what that guy said!! "it's ironic that we are at the top of the evolutionary food chain, yet we're the only species that denies evolution". Lmao
Dead-to-the-spirit deluded "God Delusion" author & blithering fool scientist goon Richard Dawkins another "leader" given 2 the profane masses is another useful idiot 4 Jesuit machinations
Jesuitical; pertaining to the Jesuits or their principals; designing; cunning; deceitful; prevaricating
The Jesuit Order completely altered the education system 2 suit their Evo-Hoax Agenda to discredit the Bible
Papal Rome cant have their Counter Reformation 2nd Dark Age DESPOTISM until Bible is destroyed
oh dear the clown sitting next to dawkins was really cringy to listen to. ''come into the light richard'' attention seeking egotistical arrogant christian?. . think i need to look at the evolutionary chain to find a place for such a being. very embarressing.
@dugges Yeah, I don't want to sound like a dickhole but again, technically all persons are forced by logic to hold either theism on atheism. Apatheism is not a belief, its just a relationship to a belief. Even if you are an Apatheist, you must still be an atheist or theist.
@FrozenPetrolPie We can say the child is agnostic...' doesn't know whether there is a god or not'... and calling him agnostic would not be child abuse as it means he doesn't know, and a child doesn't know anything about the world anyway....
Me: But what do you believe about the existence of god? I'm not asking for your knowledge now kid, I'm asking you what you believe. Do you believe in god yes/no.
The child's answer will then tell us what he/she really is. Theist or Atheist.
@FrozenPetrolPie the kid would also say that there is a tooth fairy and a santa claus. are you going to label them with a religion because of those answers?
@jessybubblz Not that it matters, but I will answer haha. Since no religion contains a tooth fairy or Santa Claus as a part of its dogma, I would say no. Technically, the kid can believe in Santa and be an atheist at the same time as I'm sure you know.
@FrozenPetrolPie I'd say children are all agnostic, not atheist. The difference being that an atheist has to look at the evidence and reason of the believing theory to dismiss it for various evidential reasons. An agnostic cannot have a view of something that is true or false until he/she has that information or theory. That, in my opinion, also applies to adults as well.
@raptor6600gt You don't actually need any evidence for not believing in god. Atheism is just a lack of belief, the default position. Agnosticism deals with knowledge, while atheism deals with belief.
An agnostic person can be an atheist as well. In fact most atheists are also agnostic.
@FrozenPetrolPie Technically, no? It's just a label, they don't NEED that label. Why must they have a religious position? Religion isn't inherent to the world, it's just a social construct. In a world with no religion a religious position would not be required, so if the child knows nothing of religion then obviously he doesn't own any religious position. That's just projecting by other people. I didn't know anything about religion until i was ten, I wasn't an atheist or anything else.
@cl1mbat1ze I understand what you mean and I agree. Nobody should label children, atheist or theist. But technically, logically and by necessity all persons must own a religious position.
If the child has never heard the god claim or never even thought about it, then that child cant believe in god, right? Well that's the definition of an atheist.
@FrozenPetrolPie Hmm, I guess children go under weak atheism, whereas someone with an expressed belief in the absence of any god goes under strong atheism. I think you're right on this one :)
I just get a bad taste in my mouth when someone is being labeled without knowledge of it themselves. If anyone were to label me anything as a child I know I would have been very angry and completely rejected the notion that anyone could tell me what I was, you know?
@FrozenPetrolPie Oh that reminds me of when i told my little brother (he's 3) that when referring to his mom he had to say "She" instead of "He". In norwegian "She" sounds like the word for dog (hun=she, hund=dog) and he was completely baffled. It took a while before I found out what his problem was xD
@FrozenPetrolPie Well at the same time, I would say that all people shouldn't have to own a religious position. It would be better if it hadn't existed in the first place, so we wouldn't have to say we were Athiests just to show that we don't believe in a higher deity. It would be a better world if beliefs in higher deities or an afterlife didn't exist at all, therefore people wouldn't have to be labelled as anything.
@FrozenPetrolPie That's about as meaningful as saying my cat doesn't believe in god because it has no concept of it. To be an atheist you have to be able to be able to understand some fairly complex concepts.
@Phild3v1ll3 That's why I used the word "technically", because the label atheist actually requires nothing except the disbelief in god or gods. You don't have to understand something in order to not believe in it. But I agree that its not meaningful to use the label atheist on all that actually are atheist.
@FrozenPetrolPie Exactly. I'd rather believe in nothing, than believe in something that can and will send me to hell, a horrible burning place made strictly for torturing the evil and the non believers; for committing sins.
@JdL1495 Look, it does not matter what you want to believe. You believe what you believe, whether you want to or not. I cant believe in god or heaven, if I want to believe in it is irrelevant.
@JdL1495 Look, it does not matter what you want to believe. You believe what you believe, whether you want to or not. I cant believe in god or heaven, if I want to believe in it is irrelevant.
@JdL1495 Look, it does not matter what you want to believe. You believe what you believe, whether you want to or not. I cant believe in god or heaven, if I want to believe in it is irrelevant.
@tjbayliss That's not accurate. Knowledge and belief are two different things, if you had said that "anybody who claims to know anything, based on faith, is being an idiot" then I would agree. But that's sadly not what you said.
Atheism is not a claim to knowledge, its just the lack of belief in god. Atheism requires no justification.
@JdL1495 Nobody really chooses what to believe. If I tell you that I have a talking tomato in my refrigerator, you cant simply choose to believe me. Even if you say the words "I believe you, you have a talking tomato" you really don't believe me. In fact you cant believe me, no matter how hard you try and no matter how much you may want to trust me.
So, I agree that the idea of hell is repulsive, but that's not why I don't believe in it.
@FrozenPetrolPie But that's later on in life. As a child, you are very naive, and you believe anything your parents tell you. So if I was to go back in time, I would rather my parents tell me to believe in nothing, than believe in hell. I'm given a much better chance of making up my mind about the subject later on when I have the ability to look at religion with a more rational mind. Thankfully, I escaped religion, but many people haven't, and that stems from their childhood.
@JdL1495 So you would rather that your parents never put the idea of hell into your head. I certainly can understand that. My point is just that nobody can chooses what to believe.
I went from believer to less of a believer. Then I became an "agnostic" I told my self and after that I finally realized that I am an atheist. During that whole process I made no choice to be this or that.
@FrozenPetrolPie Well it depends. If they tell me, "if you don't believe in God, you will go to this horrible burning place where everyone is tortured." Then no I would not want them to tell me that. If they told me something that was neutral, just explained what hell was like for example saying "hell is place that religious people believe in that is burning and people are tortured." Then it wouldn't be as bad. Only babies can truly be agnostic, as they don't have any knowledge of religion.
@FrozenPetrolPie That's the thing though, in the great religious debate, and agnostic is truly atheist. If you do not have the knowledge of whether there is a God or not, then you have a lack of faith in said God, and thus you are atheist.
@JdL1495 Yes I agree. I think people who tell themselves that they are agnostics are really atheists as well. I'm an agnostic atheist, but I don't say that to people because its confusing to many. I just say I'm an atheist.
@FrozenPetrolPie no not necessarily they don't have to hold a position at all religious or otherwise? the label is given by others and not the person themselves so it is irrelevant
@afertyus1000 Frankly, I don't think you understand the points I have been making. I don't want to sound rude, but you make no sense sir. You don't seem to understand the concepts we are discussing here. I'm afraid my last few comments were made in vain.
look, to say that you don't know if god is real and refuse to "hold a position", that still means that you don't believe. So, you dont actively believe in god - that's atheism. You are not just agnostic, you are also atheist.
@FrozenPetrolPie i do but disagree is there a problem or have you 'extra' knowledge than everyone else? we can agree to disagree and end this futile discussion, why should people 'hold positions'? that to me is ridiculous and conceited, also the terms you use for agnostic and atheist to me are not interchangeable a person is either one or the other therefore i will bow out of this discussion gracefully
@FrozenPetrolPie ok thanks i don't see why we have to hold positions especially about this subject because we don't know do we? i say we are all agnostics regardless of what label we give ourselves or others because ipso facto it is unknown, i am not cowardly just honest
@FrozenPetrolPie No atheism is being sure of gods nonexistance 100% sure. Whereas theism is being 100% of gods existance. Agnosticism is not sure about the existence of God. Agnostics don't believe in God, yet at the same time they don't reject him >_<
@earthfrenzy so wrong. under these definitions, no one would claim to be atheist or theist. fortunately for actual atheists and theists, you are just attacking straw men. think about this: is it possible to believe that gods exist without claiming to know that they do? if this is possible, then what would a person who does that be labeled as?
@AlwaysSunni Yeah that's like me it's a form of deist. Deists claim that they accept that some super natural supreme being or power may exist, however the deities doesn't intervene directly with our life even though it may have somehow influenced it along the way. This definition is very vague because deism is extremely varied. But that person would be a deist.
@earthfrenzy That's incorrect. The Atheist doesn't have to be "sure" in order to lack belief in god. Nor does he carry the burden of proof. It not his job to disprove the unproven claims of theists, because the atheist is not making any claims.
What the words mean: Theism is about belief, its not about being sure. Gnosticism is about knowledge, what we know and what we can know.
Send me a PM if you wish to talk more. I don't want to type more comments here.
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
It's not someone who doesn't have belief in God. It's someone who outright denies his existence. Again you are confusing atheism with agnosticism. A theist is 100% sure about the existence of God (hence why they worship and pray) even with a lack of evidence, this is faith.
And I cba pming you while I'm here. Might as well get last say ;)
@PUBalanceTeam I see where I went wrong. I misunderstood deism. Consequently I was assuming false ideas about agnosticism. I'm actually agnostic atheist.
@earthfrenzy hi it's difficult over yt arguing with frozenpetrolpie he has his views concreted and finds it impossible to change i can see where you are coming from and have given up trying to educate him, good luck lol
@afertyus1000 Look son, I know for a fact that you are stupid. But that's probably just because you are young, so I don't hold that against you. I was a dumb kid once to.
Haha, that IQ comment. You are obviously embarrassed because I dressed you down, don't be. Many people misunderstand what knowledge, belief, atheism and agnosticism means and how to use the terms, you are not alone. Take this "earthfrenzy" guy for example. So, don't feel so bad chief.
@FrozenPetrolPie i am so mad at these kids arguing against you right now. @afertyus1000, @earthfrenzy, wow. it's a little hard to handle, when they're so wrong yet so adamant.
@AlwaysSunni Yes, its frustrating. They can't tell shit from shinola. They think agnosticism is a neutral position wedged in between atheism and theism. But as you and I know, it isn't. But its sort of difficult to explain that to some "know it all" kid who wants to be right more then he is willing to learn.
@Hulkamania4eva When I'm asking you if you believe in god, I'm not asking for your knowledge or certainty. I already know that you don't know, I'm sure nobody KNOWS, I'm asking what you believe. Do you believe in god? Its a yes/no question.
If you say Yes, then you're a theist, any other answer (including I don't know) and you're an atheist.
@FrozenPetrolPie That is dumb logic sir. How can you believe in something and base a belief system on that without knowing if it is true or not? Using Mr. Dawkins own words, do you believe in the giant, flying spaghetti monster? It isn't a yes or no question at all. If you believe in something based on on very little facts, in this case no facts you are a stupid person, end of story. Commit to an idea or belief when you know it is the truth.
@Hulkamania4eva No it isn't. I don't believe in "something", I just lack belief in god and that's not a belief.
There are plenty of facts that make me Atheist. But It matters not. I cant help that I lack belief in god, its out of my hands. Can you decide what you believe? ;-)
Prove to me that you don't live in the matrix right now. You see philosophically, we cant "know the truth", so by your logic we cant have any ideas or beliefs. Now who is stupid?
@FrozenPetrolPie Your philosophy is we cannot know the truth, well that is pretty silly sir. Off course we can find out the truth. Now ideas and beliefs are too different things. Without an idea it is so much harder to find out the truth because that is where all ideas come from. Again how can you believe in something without an evidence, otherwise it is just a guess.
@Hulkamania4eva Its not silly, you just don't understand what I'm telling you. Ok, how do you know you are not in a dream right now? I'm not saying you are or that that is likely, I'm just saying that you cant disprove it, so you don't know for sure.
I don't believe in anything without evidence. I'm an agnostic atheist. I just say atheist for short.
@FrozenPetrolPie I know exactly what you are saying and it is silly. You raise interesting points about our existence and I have pondered them many times. I have no evidence to them up, so they are ideas and thoughts, not something you can believe in. Believing in something based on no evidence is silly.
@Hulkamania4eva I agree, to believe in something (like god) based on no evidence is "silly" since it requires faith. To lack belief in something that has no supporting evidence is only natural and requires no faith. That's the default position. And THAT is also what atheism is. The simple lack of belief in god.
@FrozenPetrolPie We put the idea of God in the same boat as other unproven theories and ideas. People through the word faith around, but let's be honest here. If you think something is true WITH NO EVIDENCE to support it, you are an idiot, end of story. Having an idea and then going out and trying to prove or disprove it is rational, but saying you know before finding the evidence to support it is just dumb.
@FrozenPetrolPie lol 'dressed me down' ? you backed out of the argument not me, i made salient points which were unanswered, never mind, i read earthfrenzys comments they are accurate, i did some lateral thinking which took you unawares, age has nothing to do with it,just take it on the chin and move on, i still respect your logic but it's in error
@FrozenPetrolPie atheists are either in the strong or weak camp some deny existence of god altogether and some don't know, whereas agnostics dont deny
No, because atheism is not an active position, it is a lack of a position. It's silly we even require a word for it, we don't have a word for people who don't actively believe in astrology. Theists seem to never understand this is in every example I've seen. Theists see a lack of belief as an opposing belief, and relegate it to a strawman religion of selfish close minded people who replace god with humanity. Opposition to theism is known as anti-theism, to label a child WOULD be wrong.
We are all atheists in regard to many gods, atheists who identify themselves as such merely see no evidence for one more god than you do. A fine quote. Christians are atheists against the Roman pantheon. Children are born atheists, unless you count their reverence for their parents, which shows our wiring for religion right there.
Agnostics mistakenly are said to be neutral, but this is not so. Agnostics technically hold the position there is a god, but this god is unknowable by human means.
@Finnbar01 well technically everyone is born atheist i dont think it is right to teach/preach religion to children .i would also like to point out that as soon as an individual is ready to explore religion they should be shown science as well , simply because religion gets to people at a young age and can make people ignorant of science and other religions , where as if an individual was to chose a religion at a suitable age they would be more tolerant , my case in point being southern america
@AntiHomogeneous as atheism is a non belief in the existance of a god, you cannot be born as such until you yourself have decided this, and you cannot make a proper decision until you understand religion. People are not born as pertaining any single belief/theory system until that system is known to them. To say someone is born an atheist is to not understand what Dawkins has been trying to say.
@guyfromdubai No you don't understand what he's saying, or what atheism is. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god. It's phenomemal that people do not see that this includes those that understand and do not understand the concept of atheism or religion. There is no getting around that.
@Finnbar01 I think there is a big difference between telling children something or telling them nothing. Labeling a child an atheist wouldn't be the case if the parents told it nothing. My parents didn't tell me anything and I made up my own mind when I was 12-13. Atheism seemed beyond doubt the most logical one for me
@Finnbar01 Not at all. It's the same as labeling a child ''not a smoker'' they havent made the conscious decision to become a religous person or a 'smoker'.
I suppose it would be if you introduced them to people with,"This is Jimmy, my atheist son", but in reality all children are born atheists. Keep in mind that atheism is an ABSENCE of belief. If you never spoke about atheism within the home, the child might continue to be an atheist into adulthood, but it would be child abuse if you told your child, "You're an atheist, and don't you forget it!"
@Finnbar01 Absolutely! I was raised in a home with no religious background. Quite literally. There wasn't a cross in the whole house, BUT my parents never told me god didn't exist, they even sent me to a catholic high school because it was a great high school, but never forced their beliefs unto me.
Long story short, I'm an atheist and my brother is a christian, and we all celebrate christmas together :D
@Finnbar01 it's not, a child is an agnostic atheist. Although they don't have a set of beliefs, they lack the belief in any god or deity and hence are agnostic atheists.
@nickosharp Not really. Agnostic means you believe there could be a god but don't know. Holding that position requires you to have considered the possibility. You can be an agnostic of some religion, because you're considering the possibility that a specific god might exist, but agnostic atheist doesn't really have meaning, it's just a self-identification for people in a dilemma about whether they're atheist or agnostic.
@Finnbar01 Atheist just means not believing in God, if the child is too young to know what the idea of God is then it cannot believe in God. It is therefore an atheist - albeit through ignorance.
@Finnbar01 By not labeling it christian or muslim or whatever religion you want to use as an example you don't actually label it an atheist. And that's the point.
YOU don't label it, the child labels ITSELF when ready.
@Finnbar01 - Atheism isnt a label. Atheism isn't a thing, it is not a specific view. Atheism doesn't say anything about what you believe, it only says something about what you don't believe. Your question therefore makes no sense. Your question might as well be "Isn't labelling a child a non-truckdriver also wrong?".
@facepalmization yes but according to wiki atheism is a rejection in belief of deities so it must be a 'thing'? it depends on the childs age obviously a 3 year old has no concept whatsoever religious or otherwise so labelling is fruitless and wrong
@afertyus1000 Also, according to wiki, it is an absence of belief. And it comes from the greek word Atheos which means without god. Quote mining is not good my friend.
@JdL1495 mining? that is what you are doing also ? without mining nothing is known, personally we are all agnostics meaning we don't know how can we as we are only humans and know only a tiny fracton of the mysteries of the universe? and i doubt if we will ever know we cannot state categorically anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@afertyus1000 Quote mining is taking something something from a book or article out of context, and using it to support your purpose, you quote mined, and thus I quote mined from the same article to prove a point. Furthermore, by calling yourself agnostic, you are calling yourself atheist. Agnosticism refuses to believe in religion because there is no way to prove it. Simple as that.
@JdL1495 i kow what it means! it was not out of context and whether an idea is changed to your own wrds or not it makes no difference, also atheist is stronger than agnostic
an atheist doesn't believe in ny higher deity whereas an agnostic is unsure don't answer back unless you agree otherwise you are wrong
@afertyus1000 A lack of belief in God. An agnostic does not believe in God, thus agnostics are atheists. By the way, "don't answer back unless you agree otherwise you are wrong" I suggest you never enter into an academic debate with such reasoning, you will be chewed up and spit out.
@JdL1495 an agnostic is UNSURE of the existence of a god, an atheist is sure there isn't a god please reread definitions!
i have entered academic debates but unfortunately this doesn't seem like one because generally both sides have to have a certain knowledge of the subject matter and it appears you don't
@JdL1495 no he is sitting on the proverbial fence, and agreeing to 'not know' whereas an atheist has a position - OED atheism Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god. so the position is DENIAL keep it going mate
@afertyus1000 It seem that it is you who lacks a certain "knowledge of the subject matter". Atheism has nothing to to with being sure. Its just a lack of belief in god.
Agnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis = knowledge. Its about what we know.
Atheism is totally different, its about what you believe, not what you know. So, its perfectly fine to say that you are both and agnostic and an atheist at the same time.
@FrozenPetrolPie Hi JDL mate!!! [or same] a hypothetical question- if a pea were in a box then would you be SURE it was? if a pea wasn't in a box would you be SURE it wasn't? we don't know or believe/disbelieve anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! can you recognise the importance of that statement?
@afertyus1000 What a bogus paradox, just open the damn box. How does this have anything to do with religion? Where there is no way to prove God's existence?
@afertyus1000 I can prove that I am Colombian, my birth certificate proves this. I can prove that I live in the United States, my passport proves this. It is bad to make such a sweeping statement, it can be easily turned against you. The fact that you are forming a definition from opinion rather than fact speaks loads about you. I weep to think of what would happen if you were to give a lecture to a group of impressionable people.
@JdL1495 and you do! poor people, you haven't turned anything against me, and what is proof? define it ? a piece of paper proves nothing authority gave you that, you have no free will [look it up] what is a fact? it is after all a general consensus
@afertyus1000 What? I'm sorry, where was your point in all this? I must have missed it with that incredible jumble of words. I can't decipher code, so how about you respond with something people can understand.
@FrozenPetrolPie wright? i thought it might be a little complicated for your grey matter to comprehend i see i am wasting my time trying to teach these mere mortals lol
@afertyus1000 Fine, go. Retreat from this. I'm sorry to say that you don't know what atheism means. Its clear from your comments here. You made a very common mistake, you think that atheism is a position that is claiming something and that it therefore requires justification for itself, but it isn't.
@FrozenPetrolPie i sir am retreating from nothing, if one wants to listen then by all means carry on but -atheist: one who denies or disbelieves in the existence of God. the definition has changed over the years but by actively disbelieving it is to me a 'stance' none of us know for sure anything of the subject but to my rational senses at this time [that is if they are not deceiving me] cont
@afertyus1000 If you say you that there is no way to prove, or disprove God, then you do not believe in God. You either believe in God(theist) or don't believe in God(atheist). Agnosticism is an atheist position that says that there is no way to prove God exists. The etymology of the word "atheist" comes from the greek word Atheos, which means without God.
@afertyus1000 Sigh, its not about knowledge. Its about belief. I don't know if there is a god or not, I just don't believe there is one. To disbelieve a unproven claim of this sort is the natural default position. Atheism is just the lack of belief in god and is therefore not a stance. The lack of accepting a claim is not a claim in and of itself.
@FrozenPetrolPie i agree and know rationalization doesn't work it takes a leap of faith from the believers and in most cases indoctrination,the label atheist is used only by the religious describing a person with an opposite view than themselves
@afertyus1000 I am technically also agnostic like you. I'm also an atheist at the same time. Agnostic atheist here.
If I ask you this simple question: "do you believe in god"? Then you cant answer "I don't know" because I'm not asking you what you know, I'm asking you what you believe. The "I don't know" reply is also invalid because it must be a "no" - since its not a "yes."
@FrozenPetrolPie i can understand your reasoning here and would like to discuss it further i believe when i turn my pc on it will come on as you do, but we don't know for certain? an atheist has come to a rational decision not to believe because on balance of probablilities he comes to the conclusion it is nonsense cont
@afertyus1000 Forget the notion of certainty. I'm not claiming certainty! I'm simply telling you that I don't believe in the the theistic god claim, because it lacks all supporting evidence and seems to me to be made up by humans. I don't BELIEVE in it. I'm not making a claim to knowledge, I'm just stating what I do not believe.
So, atheism is not about "knowing for sure" or for "certain" and its not about a "leap of faith".
@FrozenPetrolPie i never said its about a leap of faith that is for the followers of a religion! i am agnositc meaning 'i don't know' an atheist says 'i don't believe' whereas an agnostic says 'i am not sure' i can see a difference between the two statements can't you? i am not sure about aliens, other life forms etc but i am more sure of there being these things than a pink elephant in my bathroom surely the default position is agnostic
@afertyus1000 "I'm not sure" works together with "I don't believe". They are compatible and do not contradict each other. Do you understand?
The default position about your pink elephant and everything else is to disbelieve in it until its proven to at least be likely to be true. Sure you have to admit that the pink elephant might exist, but you don't believe it does. Agnosticism is intellectual cowardice, you refuse to be honest and say the words "I don't believe in pink elephants".
@FrozenPetrolPie so an atheist is still unsure? well in that case an atheist doesn't exist as we are all agnostics because we can never be sure, it is just a matter of being a strong or weak agnostic,that old argument of intellectual cowardice is therefore irrelevant
@FrozenPetrolPie i have come to the conclusion the word atheist to another atheist is nonsensical, as it means without a god because you can't be without something that never existed only in the minds of others is like saying a person is an agreenbanana! absolutely ridiculous word
@afertyus1000 Even if religion hadn't existed atheism would still be a valid word. Atheism is the rejection of the existence of supreme powers - deities. Even without religion the concept of a deity would still exist in human literature.
@FrozenPetrolPie i can but it is nonsensical, an atheist is unsure without knowledge and an agnostic is unsure with knowledge you can't be both, it seems an atheist is a new born without any concept of anything [but only a label applied by others knowledgeable about religion] and an agnostic is unsure [with knowledge of religion]
@FrozenPetrolPie You are seeing the flaw in atheism. How can someone disprove the existence of God? It's nearly impossible. Evidentially it is infact. However, if I were to say that the bible is the word of God assuming it is of course and God does exist... I could then use that along with jesus' teaching to cause contradictions and then disprove God. Still disproving a deities existence is impossible, thus I am a deist who hates religion.
@FrozenPetrolPie it just seems more plausible for there to be other life forms than ours although i have no prooof there are and never seen them, whereas a pink elephant is to me illogocal and unrealisitic sitting in the bathroom but i can only be highly skeptical never sure of anything
Dawkins is eloquent and clever, the guy on the left was not.
ElMufro 2 days ago 2
Silly Irish girl. What is so difficult about thinking for yourself and finding your own meaning? If anything, it's unoriginal going for a religion that's a rip-off of a rip-off. Maybe she just said it for the argument but my point still stands... good video anyway.
Psychonaut1992 3 days ago
@Psychonaut1992 and ireland is full of them. she proves dawkins point though cos i bet her daddy was religious and her believing got her treats and rewards.
lawndog6794 1 day ago
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i met richard yesterday and showed him my theory. he was very impressed and said it was mindblowing. i have posted what happened on you-tube site "un human rights chief highlights australian".
figbat1 4 days ago
Richard Dawkins is brilliant!
Licki4256 6 days ago 5
Neil is a prick and the reason i hated the panel for so long.
Floppy2Blueray 1 week ago 3
richards dawkins ownes anyone who brings religion into a conversation. i love him
juren669 1 week ago 11
A true humanitarian with a sense of humour.
nathan0dts 2 weeks ago 2
2:00 LOL richard just destroyed that man
thats really all we need to tell religious fundamentalists
if they listened then that would solve so much in the world
FarhanC99 2 weeks ago in playlist More videos from dugges
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Dawkins sucks
bini012 2 weeks ago
Dawkins is taking it too far. He doesn't know if there's something else out there. Agnostic all the way!
ecp73 2 weeks ago
@ecp73
Yes and nobody knows for sure if unicorns exist, so if he claimed that they don't he'd be taking it too far.
jurijzrim 2 weeks ago
God doesn't exist, get over it!!!
TheDrunkSpunk 2 weeks ago 2
Dawkins summed his attitude perfectly with the answer to the architecture there. hopefully i dont need to explain why so its obvious but my god the man just spews common sense all round. Narrowminded? actually possibly the most open minded and reasonable person ive ever seen
rossomaguire17 2 weeks ago
just because you can't prove god doesn't exist doesn't mean the chances are 50/50.. i can't prove purple rape goblins don't exist but they probably don't
dopeasfuckk 3 weeks ago
agnosticism is a pointless concept. I'm agnostic about Spiderman. there's no evidence to suggest he exists, and there's none to suggest he doesn't. why bother saying you're on the fence?
odinssverd 3 weeks ago
@odinssverd You can't disprove the existence of beings. That's the problem with atheism. That is why I'm deist. Why sit on the fence? Well, so you don't look like a idiot jumping to conclusions when you have no evidence. Atheism CAN disprove the judeo Christian god and that's why I disbelieve in it. However it cannot disprove the existence of a diety, lack of evidence means I don't support it. I'm deist.
earthfrenzy 3 weeks ago
Over 2000+ gods and faiths in the world, good luck picking the right one retards.
PS Its doesn't matter :P
Jamflip81 3 weeks ago
@Jamflip81 gamble
maxsound80 3 weeks ago
hahha dawkins wasnt a bit amused by the antics of that guy to his left
SuperWonderface 3 weeks ago
1:05 I'd tap that
hyperstone6 4 weeks ago
Get a life..LOL
MissPraecipua 1 month ago
Is this show still around? It's like they are sitting at a bar having a drink.
Water4Jeremiah 1 month ago
@Water4Jeremiah Oh wait...they ARE having drinks. (HAHA) :D You can't do that on American television! Leave it to the British to teach us responsible alcoholism! Thanks Christopher! :D
Water4Jeremiah 1 month ago
its wonderful to see some sensible irish people in the public eye
pepcozpepcoz 1 month ago
The best part was when he told that shit comedian to get a life
Supaduck0 1 month ago
If you never heard of religion and turned 20 and they explained ANY of them to you, you'd tell them to get fucked.
Supaduck0 1 month ago 5
2:00 Last of the Meheecans.
vincentpol 1 month ago
The child being atheist or not is a really philosophic and language question. I mean sure a child should not have any labels when it is born into this world as it must decide himself. Then again if atheism means no religious outlooks then a child is a atheist at it has no religion but then again "no religion" is a label....vicious circle. Still we label children by their sex (logical) height, weight and a lot of other stuff so atheist should be a ok label as no child has any knowledge of god.
scrap222666 2 months ago
Dawkins is the man.
LambdaQuarks 2 months ago
Butthurt douchefag with a superiority complex
NANSYPANSY123 2 months ago
We need to remember that Atheism IS NOT a belief...it is a suspension of all beliefs of deities.
sutton513 2 months ago
A new born should not be classified either way. A child should not even be introduced to even the possibility of religion until it possesses the cognitive prowess to understand what is being preached to it.
tmaxwell8383 2 months ago
irregardless of the religious chat, is it just me or did they mention irony wayyy too much in this interview?
Chocstarfish 2 months ago
@Chocstarfish It's not just you.
EamonOregan 2 months ago
That was brilliant what that guy said!! "it's ironic that we are at the top of the evolutionary food chain, yet we're the only species that denies evolution". Lmao
trashbash2001 3 months ago
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Dead-to-the-spirit deluded "God Delusion" author & blithering fool scientist goon Richard Dawkins another "leader" given 2 the profane masses is another useful idiot 4 Jesuit machinations
Jesuitical; pertaining to the Jesuits or their principals; designing; cunning; deceitful; prevaricating
The Jesuit Order completely altered the education system 2 suit their Evo-Hoax Agenda to discredit the Bible
Papal Rome cant have their Counter Reformation 2nd Dark Age DESPOTISM until Bible is destroyed
SpencerBenedict2nd 3 months ago
oh dear the clown sitting next to dawkins was really cringy to listen to. ''come into the light richard'' attention seeking egotistical arrogant christian?. . think i need to look at the evolutionary chain to find a place for such a being. very embarressing.
kram83au 5 months ago
@kram83au
He's a COMEDIAN you gobshite.
Primordialfan1 5 months ago
@Primordialfan1 you dont say sherlock.. deary me.
kram83au 5 months ago
Isn't labelling a child an aethist child also wrong?
Finnbar01 5 months ago
@Finnbar01 Yes. I agree. The child is too young to have a position on Theology, as well as economics and politics etc.... that's the point.
dugges 5 months ago 23
@dugges True, but at not one point did Dawkins say to labe children athiests either.
dumfries93 5 months ago
@dugges Well technically all persons must own a religious position. Either they believe in god or they don't.
Lets say you're a child and you have never heard about god or you don't care or whatever. That makes you an atheist child by default.
FrozenPetrolPie 2 months ago 20
@FrozenPetrolPie or an "apatheist"
dugges 2 months ago 2
@dugges Yeah, I don't want to sound like a dickhole but again, technically all persons are forced by logic to hold either theism on atheism. Apatheism is not a belief, its just a relationship to a belief. Even if you are an Apatheist, you must still be an atheist or theist.
FrozenPetrolPie 2 months ago
@FrozenPetrolPie We can say the child is agnostic...' doesn't know whether there is a god or not'... and calling him agnostic would not be child abuse as it means he doesn't know, and a child doesn't know anything about the world anyway....
JibranSial 2 months ago
@JibranSial Me: Do you know there is a god?
Child: No, i don't know that.
Me: So you are agnostic then?
Child: Yes
Me: But what do you believe about the existence of god? I'm not asking for your knowledge now kid, I'm asking you what you believe. Do you believe in god yes/no.
The child's answer will then tell us what he/she really is. Theist or Atheist.
FrozenPetrolPie 2 months ago
@FrozenPetrolPie the kid would also say that there is a tooth fairy and a santa claus. are you going to label them with a religion because of those answers?
jessybubblz 1 month ago
@jessybubblz Not that it matters, but I will answer haha. Since no religion contains a tooth fairy or Santa Claus as a part of its dogma, I would say no. Technically, the kid can believe in Santa and be an atheist at the same time as I'm sure you know.
FrozenPetrolPie 1 month ago
@FrozenPetrolPie I'd say children are all agnostic, not atheist. The difference being that an atheist has to look at the evidence and reason of the believing theory to dismiss it for various evidential reasons. An agnostic cannot have a view of something that is true or false until he/she has that information or theory. That, in my opinion, also applies to adults as well.
raptor6600gt 1 month ago
@raptor6600gt You don't actually need any evidence for not believing in god. Atheism is just a lack of belief, the default position. Agnosticism deals with knowledge, while atheism deals with belief.
An agnostic person can be an atheist as well. In fact most atheists are also agnostic.
FrozenPetrolPie 1 month ago
@FrozenPetrolPie what about agnosticism?
sellout87 1 month ago
@sellout87 Gnosticism deals with knowledge while theism deals with belief. Most atheist are also technically agnostics.
I don't know if there is a god, I just don't believe there is one. I'm an agnostic atheist.
FrozenPetrolPie 1 month ago
@FrozenPetrolPie Technically, no? It's just a label, they don't NEED that label. Why must they have a religious position? Religion isn't inherent to the world, it's just a social construct. In a world with no religion a religious position would not be required, so if the child knows nothing of religion then obviously he doesn't own any religious position. That's just projecting by other people. I didn't know anything about religion until i was ten, I wasn't an atheist or anything else.
cl1mbat1ze 1 month ago
@cl1mbat1ze I understand what you mean and I agree. Nobody should label children, atheist or theist. But technically, logically and by necessity all persons must own a religious position.
If the child has never heard the god claim or never even thought about it, then that child cant believe in god, right? Well that's the definition of an atheist.
FrozenPetrolPie 1 month ago
@FrozenPetrolPie Hmm, I guess children go under weak atheism, whereas someone with an expressed belief in the absence of any god goes under strong atheism. I think you're right on this one :)
I just get a bad taste in my mouth when someone is being labeled without knowledge of it themselves. If anyone were to label me anything as a child I know I would have been very angry and completely rejected the notion that anyone could tell me what I was, you know?
cl1mbat1ze 1 month ago
@cl1mbat1ze Yeah, its like telling a child that he/she is an animal. Even though it 100% true, its just confusing to the kid.
FrozenPetrolPie 1 month ago
@FrozenPetrolPie Oh that reminds me of when i told my little brother (he's 3) that when referring to his mom he had to say "She" instead of "He". In norwegian "She" sounds like the word for dog (hun=she, hund=dog) and he was completely baffled. It took a while before I found out what his problem was xD
cl1mbat1ze 1 month ago
@cl1mbat1ze i agree your point is valid but some are too stubborn to understand
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie Well at the same time, I would say that all people shouldn't have to own a religious position. It would be better if it hadn't existed in the first place, so we wouldn't have to say we were Athiests just to show that we don't believe in a higher deity. It would be a better world if beliefs in higher deities or an afterlife didn't exist at all, therefore people wouldn't have to be labelled as anything.
JaTochNietDan 1 month ago
@JaTochNietDan Yes, its a sad state of affairs that beliefs in deities exists at all IMO.
FrozenPetrolPie 1 month ago
@FrozenPetrolPie That's about as meaningful as saying my cat doesn't believe in god because it has no concept of it. To be an atheist you have to be able to be able to understand some fairly complex concepts.
Phild3v1ll3 1 month ago
@Phild3v1ll3 That's why I used the word "technically", because the label atheist actually requires nothing except the disbelief in god or gods. You don't have to understand something in order to not believe in it. But I agree that its not meaningful to use the label atheist on all that actually are atheist.
FrozenPetrolPie 1 month ago
@FrozenPetrolPie Exactly. I'd rather believe in nothing, than believe in something that can and will send me to hell, a horrible burning place made strictly for torturing the evil and the non believers; for committing sins.
JdL1495 1 month ago
@JdL1495 Look, it does not matter what you want to believe. You believe what you believe, whether you want to or not. I cant believe in god or heaven, if I want to believe in it is irrelevant.
FrozenPetrolPie 1 month ago
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@JdL1495 Look, it does not matter what you want to believe. You believe what you believe, whether you want to or not. I cant believe in god or heaven, if I want to believe in it is irrelevant.
FrozenPetrolPie 1 month ago
@JdL1495 Look, it does not matter what you want to believe. You believe what you believe, whether you want to or not. I cant believe in god or heaven, if I want to believe in it is irrelevant.
FrozenPetrolPie 1 month ago
@JdL1495 And yes, anybody who believes anything, based on faith, is being an idiot.
Either you have evidence and facts to prove your reality, or see for yourself...
...Or you don't live in reality, you live in a psychopathic dream world where facts are ignored - like most religious people.
tjbayliss 1 month ago
@tjbayliss That's not accurate. Knowledge and belief are two different things, if you had said that "anybody who claims to know anything, based on faith, is being an idiot" then I would agree. But that's sadly not what you said.
Atheism is not a claim to knowledge, its just the lack of belief in god. Atheism requires no justification.
FrozenPetrolPie 1 month ago
@JdL1495 Nobody really chooses what to believe. If I tell you that I have a talking tomato in my refrigerator, you cant simply choose to believe me. Even if you say the words "I believe you, you have a talking tomato" you really don't believe me. In fact you cant believe me, no matter how hard you try and no matter how much you may want to trust me.
So, I agree that the idea of hell is repulsive, but that's not why I don't believe in it.
FrozenPetrolPie 1 month ago
@FrozenPetrolPie But that's later on in life. As a child, you are very naive, and you believe anything your parents tell you. So if I was to go back in time, I would rather my parents tell me to believe in nothing, than believe in hell. I'm given a much better chance of making up my mind about the subject later on when I have the ability to look at religion with a more rational mind. Thankfully, I escaped religion, but many people haven't, and that stems from their childhood.
JdL1495 1 month ago
@JdL1495 So you would rather that your parents never put the idea of hell into your head. I certainly can understand that. My point is just that nobody can chooses what to believe.
I went from believer to less of a believer. Then I became an "agnostic" I told my self and after that I finally realized that I am an atheist. During that whole process I made no choice to be this or that.
FrozenPetrolPie 4 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie Well it depends. If they tell me, "if you don't believe in God, you will go to this horrible burning place where everyone is tortured." Then no I would not want them to tell me that. If they told me something that was neutral, just explained what hell was like for example saying "hell is place that religious people believe in that is burning and people are tortured." Then it wouldn't be as bad. Only babies can truly be agnostic, as they don't have any knowledge of religion.
JdL1495 4 weeks ago
@JdL1495 The honest and opened mind must be agnostic. But that does not rule out atheism. Babies must be agnostic AND atheistic.
FrozenPetrolPie 4 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie That's the thing though, in the great religious debate, and agnostic is truly atheist. If you do not have the knowledge of whether there is a God or not, then you have a lack of faith in said God, and thus you are atheist.
JdL1495 4 weeks ago
@JdL1495 Yes I agree. I think people who tell themselves that they are agnostics are really atheists as well. I'm an agnostic atheist, but I don't say that to people because its confusing to many. I just say I'm an atheist.
For religion faith requires no knowledge
FrozenPetrolPie 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie no not necessarily they don't have to hold a position at all religious or otherwise? the label is given by others and not the person themselves so it is irrelevant
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 Frankly, I don't think you understand the points I have been making. I don't want to sound rude, but you make no sense sir. You don't seem to understand the concepts we are discussing here. I'm afraid my last few comments were made in vain.
look, to say that you don't know if god is real and refuse to "hold a position", that still means that you don't believe. So, you dont actively believe in god - that's atheism. You are not just agnostic, you are also atheist.
FrozenPetrolPie 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie i do but disagree is there a problem or have you 'extra' knowledge than everyone else? we can agree to disagree and end this futile discussion, why should people 'hold positions'? that to me is ridiculous and conceited, also the terms you use for agnostic and atheist to me are not interchangeable a person is either one or the other therefore i will bow out of this discussion gracefully
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 This is my last comment: I never said or implied that the terms agnostic and atheist are interchangeable, but that they are compatible.
"why should people 'hold positions'?" Because we cant help not to, and we cant control what we believe.
These videos might help you understand.
watch?v=mot7_MVlpaI&feature=related
watch?v=fkEJtQJ5tz4
FrozenPetrolPie 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie ok thanks i don't see why we have to hold positions especially about this subject because we don't know do we? i say we are all agnostics regardless of what label we give ourselves or others because ipso facto it is unknown, i am not cowardly just honest
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie No atheism is being sure of gods nonexistance 100% sure. Whereas theism is being 100% of gods existance. Agnosticism is not sure about the existence of God. Agnostics don't believe in God, yet at the same time they don't reject him >_<
earthfrenzy 3 weeks ago
@earthfrenzy so wrong. under these definitions, no one would claim to be atheist or theist. fortunately for actual atheists and theists, you are just attacking straw men. think about this: is it possible to believe that gods exist without claiming to know that they do? if this is possible, then what would a person who does that be labeled as?
AlwaysSunni 3 weeks ago
@AlwaysSunni Yeah that's like me it's a form of deist. Deists claim that they accept that some super natural supreme being or power may exist, however the deities doesn't intervene directly with our life even though it may have somehow influenced it along the way. This definition is very vague because deism is extremely varied. But that person would be a deist.
earthfrenzy 3 weeks ago
@earthfrenzy That's incorrect. The Atheist doesn't have to be "sure" in order to lack belief in god. Nor does he carry the burden of proof. It not his job to disprove the unproven claims of theists, because the atheist is not making any claims.
What the words mean: Theism is about belief, its not about being sure. Gnosticism is about knowledge, what we know and what we can know.
Send me a PM if you wish to talk more. I don't want to type more comments here.
FrozenPetrolPie 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie athiest noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
It's not someone who doesn't have belief in God. It's someone who outright denies his existence. Again you are confusing atheism with agnosticism. A theist is 100% sure about the existence of God (hence why they worship and pray) even with a lack of evidence, this is faith.
And I cba pming you while I'm here. Might as well get last say ;)
earthfrenzy 3 weeks ago
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@earthfrenzy You don't know what the fuck you're talking about son. Atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
What you don't understand is that you don't have to be 100% sure of gods nonexistence in order to lack belief in god.
FrozenPetrolPie 3 weeks ago
@earthfrenzy
disbelieve
verb (used with object)
1. to have no belief in; refuse or reject belief in
edd259 3 weeks ago
@earthfrenzy Agnosticism is not on the same scale as atheism.
You can be an agnostic atheist or a gnostic atheist.
What you're saying is akin to: you can be tall (theist), short (atheist), or fat (agnostic).
When really, you can be tall and fat, short and fat, tall and thin (gnostic), or short and thin.
PUBalanceTeam 2 weeks ago
@PUBalanceTeam I see where I went wrong. I misunderstood deism. Consequently I was assuming false ideas about agnosticism. I'm actually agnostic atheist.
earthfrenzy 2 weeks ago
@earthfrenzy hi it's difficult over yt arguing with frozenpetrolpie he has his views concreted and finds it impossible to change i can see where you are coming from and have given up trying to educate him, good luck lol
afertyus1000 2 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie and btw your comments are ridiculous even if you think they make sense they don't take it from a higher IQ
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 Look son, I know for a fact that you are stupid. But that's probably just because you are young, so I don't hold that against you. I was a dumb kid once to.
Haha, that IQ comment. You are obviously embarrassed because I dressed you down, don't be. Many people misunderstand what knowledge, belief, atheism and agnosticism means and how to use the terms, you are not alone. Take this "earthfrenzy" guy for example. So, don't feel so bad chief.
FrozenPetrolPie 2 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie i am so mad at these kids arguing against you right now. @afertyus1000, @earthfrenzy, wow. it's a little hard to handle, when they're so wrong yet so adamant.
AlwaysSunni 2 weeks ago
@AlwaysSunni Yes, its frustrating. They can't tell shit from shinola. They think agnosticism is a neutral position wedged in between atheism and theism. But as you and I know, it isn't. But its sort of difficult to explain that to some "know it all" kid who wants to be right more then he is willing to learn.
FrozenPetrolPie 2 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie Being an agnostic is summed up in these words, 'I don't know' or 'I'm not sure'
Hulkamania4eva 2 weeks ago
@Hulkamania4eva When I'm asking you if you believe in god, I'm not asking for your knowledge or certainty. I already know that you don't know, I'm sure nobody KNOWS, I'm asking what you believe. Do you believe in god? Its a yes/no question.
If you say Yes, then you're a theist, any other answer (including I don't know) and you're an atheist.
FrozenPetrolPie 2 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie That is dumb logic sir. How can you believe in something and base a belief system on that without knowing if it is true or not? Using Mr. Dawkins own words, do you believe in the giant, flying spaghetti monster? It isn't a yes or no question at all. If you believe in something based on on very little facts, in this case no facts you are a stupid person, end of story. Commit to an idea or belief when you know it is the truth.
Hulkamania4eva 2 weeks ago
@Hulkamania4eva No it isn't. I don't believe in "something", I just lack belief in god and that's not a belief.
There are plenty of facts that make me Atheist. But It matters not. I cant help that I lack belief in god, its out of my hands. Can you decide what you believe? ;-)
Prove to me that you don't live in the matrix right now. You see philosophically, we cant "know the truth", so by your logic we cant have any ideas or beliefs. Now who is stupid?
FrozenPetrolPie 2 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie Your philosophy is we cannot know the truth, well that is pretty silly sir. Off course we can find out the truth. Now ideas and beliefs are too different things. Without an idea it is so much harder to find out the truth because that is where all ideas come from. Again how can you believe in something without an evidence, otherwise it is just a guess.
Hulkamania4eva 2 weeks ago
@Hulkamania4eva Its not silly, you just don't understand what I'm telling you. Ok, how do you know you are not in a dream right now? I'm not saying you are or that that is likely, I'm just saying that you cant disprove it, so you don't know for sure.
I don't believe in anything without evidence. I'm an agnostic atheist. I just say atheist for short.
FrozenPetrolPie 2 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie I know exactly what you are saying and it is silly. You raise interesting points about our existence and I have pondered them many times. I have no evidence to them up, so they are ideas and thoughts, not something you can believe in. Believing in something based on no evidence is silly.
Hulkamania4eva 2 weeks ago
@Hulkamania4eva I agree, to believe in something (like god) based on no evidence is "silly" since it requires faith. To lack belief in something that has no supporting evidence is only natural and requires no faith. That's the default position. And THAT is also what atheism is. The simple lack of belief in god.
FrozenPetrolPie 2 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie We put the idea of God in the same boat as other unproven theories and ideas. People through the word faith around, but let's be honest here. If you think something is true WITH NO EVIDENCE to support it, you are an idiot, end of story. Having an idea and then going out and trying to prove or disprove it is rational, but saying you know before finding the evidence to support it is just dumb.
Hulkamania4eva 2 weeks ago
@Hulkamania4eva Wait, are you agreeing with me now? It sure seems like it. I have never said anything that goes against your latest comment buddy.
Do you understand that agnosticism is compatible with theism and atheism?
FrozenPetrolPie 2 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie lol 'dressed me down' ? you backed out of the argument not me, i made salient points which were unanswered, never mind, i read earthfrenzys comments they are accurate, i did some lateral thinking which took you unawares, age has nothing to do with it,just take it on the chin and move on, i still respect your logic but it's in error
afertyus1000 2 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie atheists are either in the strong or weak camp some deny existence of god altogether and some don't know, whereas agnostics dont deny
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@dugges So who decide what a child should be taught? The parents or the state?
Finnbar01 2 months ago
@Finnbar01
ALL children are atheists at birth.
Primordialfan1 5 months ago
@Finnbar01 I disagee. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god.
mark200 5 months ago
No, because atheism is not an active position, it is a lack of a position. It's silly we even require a word for it, we don't have a word for people who don't actively believe in astrology. Theists seem to never understand this is in every example I've seen. Theists see a lack of belief as an opposing belief, and relegate it to a strawman religion of selfish close minded people who replace god with humanity. Opposition to theism is known as anti-theism, to label a child WOULD be wrong.
evilyig 5 months ago
We are all atheists in regard to many gods, atheists who identify themselves as such merely see no evidence for one more god than you do. A fine quote. Christians are atheists against the Roman pantheon. Children are born atheists, unless you count their reverence for their parents, which shows our wiring for religion right there.
Agnostics mistakenly are said to be neutral, but this is not so. Agnostics technically hold the position there is a god, but this god is unknowable by human means.
evilyig 5 months ago
@Finnbar01 No, Atheist means 'no belief' no child is born with any belief system so this is correct
yunged 4 months ago
@Finnbar01 well technically everyone is born atheist i dont think it is right to teach/preach religion to children .i would also like to point out that as soon as an individual is ready to explore religion they should be shown science as well , simply because religion gets to people at a young age and can make people ignorant of science and other religions , where as if an individual was to chose a religion at a suitable age they would be more tolerant , my case in point being southern america
AntiHomogeneous 4 months ago 15
@AntiHomogeneous as atheism is a non belief in the existance of a god, you cannot be born as such until you yourself have decided this, and you cannot make a proper decision until you understand religion. People are not born as pertaining any single belief/theory system until that system is known to them. To say someone is born an atheist is to not understand what Dawkins has been trying to say.
guyfromdubai 1 month ago
@guyfromdubai No you don't understand what he's saying, or what atheism is. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god. It's phenomemal that people do not see that this includes those that understand and do not understand the concept of atheism or religion. There is no getting around that.
KonijNx2 1 month ago
@Finnbar01 I think there is a big difference between telling children something or telling them nothing. Labeling a child an atheist wouldn't be the case if the parents told it nothing. My parents didn't tell me anything and I made up my own mind when I was 12-13. Atheism seemed beyond doubt the most logical one for me
Hurplepaze 3 months ago
@Finnbar01 Not at all. It's the same as labeling a child ''not a smoker'' they havent made the conscious decision to become a religous person or a 'smoker'.
Aodanful 3 months ago
@Finnbar01
I suppose it would be if you introduced them to people with,"This is Jimmy, my atheist son", but in reality all children are born atheists. Keep in mind that atheism is an ABSENCE of belief. If you never spoke about atheism within the home, the child might continue to be an atheist into adulthood, but it would be child abuse if you told your child, "You're an atheist, and don't you forget it!"
nosleeze 3 months ago
@Finnbar01 Absolutely! I was raised in a home with no religious background. Quite literally. There wasn't a cross in the whole house, BUT my parents never told me god didn't exist, they even sent me to a catholic high school because it was a great high school, but never forced their beliefs unto me.
Long story short, I'm an atheist and my brother is a christian, and we all celebrate christmas together :D
marco7centurion 2 months ago
@Finnbar01 it's not, a child is an agnostic atheist. Although they don't have a set of beliefs, they lack the belief in any god or deity and hence are agnostic atheists.
nickosharp 2 months ago
@nickosharp Not really. Agnostic means you believe there could be a god but don't know. Holding that position requires you to have considered the possibility. You can be an agnostic of some religion, because you're considering the possibility that a specific god might exist, but agnostic atheist doesn't really have meaning, it's just a self-identification for people in a dilemma about whether they're atheist or agnostic.
LokiClock 2 months ago
have to clarify, a newborn baby would be an agnostic atheist
nickosharp 2 months ago
@Finnbar01 No. Atheist should be the default position.
horsefd 2 months ago
@Finnbar01
I think it's wrong to label a child an atheist, yes.
But then, the child probably is an atheist. I don't know.
Ask the child. :)
HoneyIEducatedTheWeb 2 months ago
@HoneyIEducatedTheWeb Should the stae dictate what a child believes or should we allow that up to the parents?
Finnbar01 2 months ago
@Finnbar01
Neither, really.
But then again, is it really damaging to say the child believes in a god?
HoneyIEducatedTheWeb 2 months ago
@Finnbar01 Atheist just means not believing in God, if the child is too young to know what the idea of God is then it cannot believe in God. It is therefore an atheist - albeit through ignorance.
benjaspc123 2 months ago
@Finnbar01 By not labeling it christian or muslim or whatever religion you want to use as an example you don't actually label it an atheist. And that's the point.
YOU don't label it, the child labels ITSELF when ready.
Viruzzz 1 month ago
@Finnbar01 - Atheism isnt a label. Atheism isn't a thing, it is not a specific view. Atheism doesn't say anything about what you believe, it only says something about what you don't believe. Your question therefore makes no sense. Your question might as well be "Isn't labelling a child a non-truckdriver also wrong?".
facepalmization 1 month ago
@facepalmization yes but according to wiki atheism is a rejection in belief of deities so it must be a 'thing'? it depends on the childs age obviously a 3 year old has no concept whatsoever religious or otherwise so labelling is fruitless and wrong
afertyus1000 1 month ago
@afertyus1000 Also, according to wiki, it is an absence of belief. And it comes from the greek word Atheos which means without god. Quote mining is not good my friend.
JdL1495 1 month ago
@JdL1495 mining? that is what you are doing also ? without mining nothing is known, personally we are all agnostics meaning we don't know how can we as we are only humans and know only a tiny fracton of the mysteries of the universe? and i doubt if we will ever know we cannot state categorically anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
afertyus1000 1 month ago
@afertyus1000 Quote mining is taking something something from a book or article out of context, and using it to support your purpose, you quote mined, and thus I quote mined from the same article to prove a point. Furthermore, by calling yourself agnostic, you are calling yourself atheist. Agnosticism refuses to believe in religion because there is no way to prove it. Simple as that.
JdL1495 1 month ago
@JdL1495 i kow what it means! it was not out of context and whether an idea is changed to your own wrds or not it makes no difference, also atheist is stronger than agnostic
an atheist doesn't believe in ny higher deity whereas an agnostic is unsure don't answer back unless you agree otherwise you are wrong
afertyus1000 4 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 A lack of belief in God. An agnostic does not believe in God, thus agnostics are atheists. By the way, "don't answer back unless you agree otherwise you are wrong" I suggest you never enter into an academic debate with such reasoning, you will be chewed up and spit out.
JdL1495 4 weeks ago
@JdL1495 an agnostic is UNSURE of the existence of a god, an atheist is sure there isn't a god please reread definitions!
i have entered academic debates but unfortunately this doesn't seem like one because generally both sides have to have a certain knowledge of the subject matter and it appears you don't
afertyus1000 4 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 If he is unsure, then he has a lack of faith, in other words atheist.
You can keep this going if you like, but the semantics of the definition are there.
JdL1495 4 weeks ago
@JdL1495 no he is sitting on the proverbial fence, and agreeing to 'not know' whereas an atheist has a position - OED atheism Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god. so the position is DENIAL keep it going mate
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 It seem that it is you who lacks a certain "knowledge of the subject matter". Atheism has nothing to to with being sure. Its just a lack of belief in god.
Agnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis = knowledge. Its about what we know.
Atheism is totally different, its about what you believe, not what you know. So, its perfectly fine to say that you are both and agnostic and an atheist at the same time.
FrozenPetrolPie 4 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie Hi JDL mate!!! [or same] a hypothetical question- if a pea were in a box then would you be SURE it was? if a pea wasn't in a box would you be SURE it wasn't? we don't know or believe/disbelieve anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! can you recognise the importance of that statement?
afertyus1000 4 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 What a bogus paradox, just open the damn box. How does this have anything to do with religion? Where there is no way to prove God's existence?
JdL1495 4 weeks ago
@JdL1495 i am talking to someone else there is no way to prove anything! or is that too philosophical for you?
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 I can prove that I am Colombian, my birth certificate proves this. I can prove that I live in the United States, my passport proves this. It is bad to make such a sweeping statement, it can be easily turned against you. The fact that you are forming a definition from opinion rather than fact speaks loads about you. I weep to think of what would happen if you were to give a lecture to a group of impressionable people.
JdL1495 3 weeks ago
@JdL1495 and you do! poor people, you haven't turned anything against me, and what is proof? define it ? a piece of paper proves nothing authority gave you that, you have no free will [look it up] what is a fact? it is after all a general consensus
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 What? I'm sorry, where was your point in all this? I must have missed it with that incredible jumble of words. I can't decipher code, so how about you respond with something people can understand.
JdL1495 3 weeks ago
@JdL1495 people can understand with higher IQs maybe than you but it seems you are doomed to forever dither in your comprehension
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 Did you wright that comment while you were drunk or something? It makes no sense and seems to contain some 20 exclamation marks.
FrozenPetrolPie 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie wright? i thought it might be a little complicated for your grey matter to comprehend i see i am wasting my time trying to teach these mere mortals lol
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 Fine, go. Retreat from this. I'm sorry to say that you don't know what atheism means. Its clear from your comments here. You made a very common mistake, you think that atheism is a position that is claiming something and that it therefore requires justification for itself, but it isn't.
FrozenPetrolPie 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie i sir am retreating from nothing, if one wants to listen then by all means carry on but -atheist: one who denies or disbelieves in the existence of God. the definition has changed over the years but by actively disbelieving it is to me a 'stance' none of us know for sure anything of the subject but to my rational senses at this time [that is if they are not deceiving me] cont
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 If you say you that there is no way to prove, or disprove God, then you do not believe in God. You either believe in God(theist) or don't believe in God(atheist). Agnosticism is an atheist position that says that there is no way to prove God exists. The etymology of the word "atheist" comes from the greek word Atheos, which means without God.
JdL1495 3 weeks ago
@JdL1495 what? there are millions of devout religious people who don't profess to be able to 'prove' there is a god? they just take a leap of faith
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 Sigh, its not about knowledge. Its about belief. I don't know if there is a god or not, I just don't believe there is one. To disbelieve a unproven claim of this sort is the natural default position. Atheism is just the lack of belief in god and is therefore not a stance. The lack of accepting a claim is not a claim in and of itself.
FrozenPetrolPie 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie i agree and know rationalization doesn't work it takes a leap of faith from the believers and in most cases indoctrination,the label atheist is used only by the religious describing a person with an opposite view than themselves
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie choose to discount a god which is an atheist viewpoint but i am agnostic [which to me means i can never be certain]
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 I am technically also agnostic like you. I'm also an atheist at the same time. Agnostic atheist here.
If I ask you this simple question: "do you believe in god"? Then you cant answer "I don't know" because I'm not asking you what you know, I'm asking you what you believe. The "I don't know" reply is also invalid because it must be a "no" - since its not a "yes."
come out of your closet, my atheist brother.
FrozenPetrolPie 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie i can understand your reasoning here and would like to discuss it further i believe when i turn my pc on it will come on as you do, but we don't know for certain? an atheist has come to a rational decision not to believe because on balance of probablilities he comes to the conclusion it is nonsense cont
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 Forget the notion of certainty. I'm not claiming certainty! I'm simply telling you that I don't believe in the the theistic god claim, because it lacks all supporting evidence and seems to me to be made up by humans. I don't BELIEVE in it. I'm not making a claim to knowledge, I'm just stating what I do not believe.
So, atheism is not about "knowing for sure" or for "certain" and its not about a "leap of faith".
That's about as simple as I can make it.
FrozenPetrolPie 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie i never said its about a leap of faith that is for the followers of a religion! i am agnositc meaning 'i don't know' an atheist says 'i don't believe' whereas an agnostic says 'i am not sure' i can see a difference between the two statements can't you? i am not sure about aliens, other life forms etc but i am more sure of there being these things than a pink elephant in my bathroom surely the default position is agnostic
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 "I'm not sure" works together with "I don't believe". They are compatible and do not contradict each other. Do you understand?
The default position about your pink elephant and everything else is to disbelieve in it until its proven to at least be likely to be true. Sure you have to admit that the pink elephant might exist, but you don't believe it does. Agnosticism is intellectual cowardice, you refuse to be honest and say the words "I don't believe in pink elephants".
FrozenPetrolPie 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie so an atheist is still unsure? well in that case an atheist doesn't exist as we are all agnostics because we can never be sure, it is just a matter of being a strong or weak agnostic,that old argument of intellectual cowardice is therefore irrelevant
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 No. Why cant you understand this? You don't have to be sure in order to believe or disbelieve in something.
FrozenPetrolPie 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie i have come to the conclusion the word atheist to another atheist is nonsensical, as it means without a god because you can't be without something that never existed only in the minds of others is like saying a person is an agreenbanana! absolutely ridiculous word
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 Even if religion hadn't existed atheism would still be a valid word. Atheism is the rejection of the existence of supreme powers - deities. Even without religion the concept of a deity would still exist in human literature.
earthfrenzy 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie i can but it is nonsensical, an atheist is unsure without knowledge and an agnostic is unsure with knowledge you can't be both, it seems an atheist is a new born without any concept of anything [but only a label applied by others knowledgeable about religion] and an agnostic is unsure [with knowledge of religion]
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
@afertyus1000 everyone believe in the world of 1 and 0. so just gamble
maxsound80 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie You are seeing the flaw in atheism. How can someone disprove the existence of God? It's nearly impossible. Evidentially it is infact. However, if I were to say that the bible is the word of God assuming it is of course and God does exist... I could then use that along with jesus' teaching to cause contradictions and then disprove God. Still disproving a deities existence is impossible, thus I am a deist who hates religion.
earthfrenzy 3 weeks ago
@FrozenPetrolPie it just seems more plausible for there to be other life forms than ours although i have no prooof there are and never seen them, whereas a pink elephant is to me illogocal and unrealisitic sitting in the bathroom but i can only be highly skeptical never sure of anything
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago