By saying that the universe is founded on basic principles that know nothing of morality, Dawkin's was making no statement about the actions of people and their personal choices. You don't understand his words.
@alexander74511 Your argument has NO weight. Is it wrong to murder? Yes! Is it wrong to rape? Yes! Is it wrong to steel? Yes? Does society have murderers, rapists & thieves? Yes! Just because people choose to live immoraly doesn't make the morals relative.
@Sgtrev97 No problem and yes I know. Although I think your reasoning to what makes it wrong is different to mine. You probably think an eternal God is the reason, I see it as a social construct. Under certain conditions even stealing would be good for example I would definitely steal a murderers gun,knife or any other weapon if I knew he or she used it to hurt people and I would get away without him or her noticing it. God on the other hand would sentence me to hell for that.
@scrap222666 Yes, you are correct. The same creator who gave us the law of time, gravity, etc etc also gave us moral law. You hit the nail on the head. But, if I use your reason (social construct) as to why it is wrong. It is still wrong, because society also thinks it is wrong to steal. Society does not think it is wrong to take away from a murderer a gun, knife or any other weapon. Neither does God. If man has a sense of justice, how much higher is God's?
@Sgtrev97 Then my man you are going against your own scripture that has "Thou shall not steal" in it. Or if I am wrong point me to the verse in the Bible that states that certain stealing is ok.
You don't have the mind to understand the subject you're tackling. "I don't understand the platform he's running on" - no kidding. Keep your dime store philosophy kid, you're not anywhere near as wise as you are pompous.
If he really believes this bullshit (he doesn't, actually...), and nothing really matters at all, he could do all of us a great favor: promoting his cause by shutting his big mouth and preventing his selfish genes to express what he is... In a purposeless world, what is the difference, right?
I came across riseofatheism's post who addresses my last post. Well said riseofatheism...my next question would be how is it that the universe is pitiless and indifferent. How do you arrive at this? I see purpose and design as intuitive.
Great post and great philosophical point. Frederick Nietzsche was faced with the same dilemma when he came up with his übermensch. He acknowledged that to create the übermensch was counter intuitive to his philosophical view. Even though he acknowledged there was no purpose in life he came up with one any way. This is self defeating. Man has an innate awareness of purpose and morality.
Its not a campaign its just truth.Why would you lie to people?The purpose is what you make it.I think its allot better than being created to be a Gods pet.I mean if Christianity is correct our purpose is to love a God.That is why we exist, because a God is so insecure that he needed to create a group of stupid meat bags to worship him.If you don't you are tortured forever without mercy.But he still loves you.Unconditional love,with some severe conditions.
If evolution is true and the atheists are right that there is no God, then who cares what Christians think. But if Christianity is true and the atheists are wrong, watch out!
Why would you spam this video out? Who the fuck cares about Religion! If you need false hope to get by in life, you aren't worthy of being any sort of speaker. You're just another crazy sheep that thinks Christianity is supreme and talk trash about any other Religion. Go quote some scriptures and act like it makes you a perfectly well informed Christian. You're just another mouth puppet controlled by your own self pity. Grow up and fight for something worth fighting for.
@dankish "you need false hope to get by in life" Hey buddy, I bet you believe that faith is a crutch to prop people up, When was the last time you believed in something so strongly that you were willing to stand "on the box" in public and declare it to the world? My faith is not my crutch it is my enabler! Galatians 2:20 KJV
I think there's an equivalency fallacy happening here and this may help clear it up.
The universe is pitiless and indifferent.
Richard Dawkins is not pitiless and indifferent.
Notice that just because the universe itself has no rhyme or reason, no pity or justice, nor mercy, no ultimate goals or desires, doesn't mean an individual cannot. The equivocation fallacy is that just because the universe is these things, doesn't mean that person X is also all these things.
I never understand why they(atheists) get all worked up. If they feel we are wrong about God and his existence why fight? Does it really matter to spend so much time trying to prove a Christian wrong?Does it make them at peace with themselves? Truth is, I think they are afraid. Atheist that spend so much time fighting us Christians are worried, and should be.
PS.
Tooooooo funny about you wife comin in bro. God bless.
he is right. the universe we live in has no consciousness and itself but the laws that govern it so graciously allow us to exist. your question of "why care?" is ultimately the morality one, yes? we always want our lives to e the best, most fruitful and longest as possble correct? if we speak out against injustices and promote that which will ultimately benefit society, our lives, and the lives of others, will obey that description. to care for others is to care for self, and even beyond that.
@sorry8140 Or it might be shackling your from opening new possibilities such as new definitions of injustice, new definitions of life, new and different societies.
After watching this video, it's plainly obvious that people can't accept the truth that Richard Dawkins is spreading... They would rather believe in some make-believe God that never existed,
Mr. Dawkins lives in reality and people of religion can't handle it.
It is his version of "Why bad things happen to good people." The universe isn't caring or just. That is the space we have always lived in and flourish. It is not a bad thing to realize this. You fly into a star and there is no forgiveness. I'm reminded of a line is use regularly, but don't know the author, "The ultimate punishment for stupidity is death." Don't blame the universe if you didn't mean to fall from a 20 story building. It is a contrast to explain why bad things happen.
@steveoho The universe doesn't care of someone dies or harmed. Our local star and our planet don't are also not concerned. It is just you and I that can empathize with another's pain. Things happen, you and I decide if it is good or bad, and then usually from our own perspective. I see the killing of Osama as a good thing, I doubt if everyone agrees with me. A lady walks away with joy after identifying a body she had believed was her son. She is glad the dead body was someone else.All subjective
@matthewtaylorbrown You recognize that irrespective of culture how a person in their right mind would feel, you live as if you believe moral truth is real, but you deny it with your words. Whats so wrong with the idea that there might be a universal morality?
@steveoho I'm not sure what a 'moral truth' could be. We have agreed upon normal behavior. We don't always agree on the moral issues. I'm an atheist and think that abortion is disturbing, good luck putting that genie back in the bottle. I used to believe that capital punishment was justified, in my 40s I determined otherwise. I've seen other go through similar changes. I don't see the absolute morals for which you infer, not in society, within individuals, and certainly not from Christianity.
@matthewtaylorbrown Does it bother you that all men being born equal and with inalienable rights might not actually be true? That regardless of what is agreed upon, it would be arbitrary?
@steveoho Equality is a man-made idea. The Bible does not depict equality. If equality exists, it is because we make it happen. We see to failures at our efforts of equality, but in general we are doing much better then in the past. After all, if we were born into slavery, there isn't much equality. I agree arbitrary, indeed. I wouldn't not argue that subjective = arbitrary in this case.
Both men and women are created in the image of God. You can't get a higher value for mankind and this would display equality well as God does not show partiality.
"we are doing much better then in the past"
To even say that there is a standard for equality, that one form of equality is better than another, seems to import morality into something where it wasn't before.
@steveoho The simple mention of slavery is in the Bible is not a sample of equality, especially since it is used as a good example of serving instead of speaking out against it or no mention of a commandment that slavery is evil. It is not enough to declare equality at the moment of birth when that moment also means being born in to slavery. The books of the Bible were depicted in the context where slavery was a fact of life. Yet it is evil and inequality.
@matthewtaylorbrown While my saying slavery in the Bible was considerably better among the Jews that doesn't mean that it was right under any circumstance. One of the laws permitted in the OT was a certificate of divorce. Jesus explained that although God hated divorce he allowed it because of their hard hearts. In the same way God hates inequality. We see this in the NT - use your Bible to look up Colossians 3:11 or Galatians 3:28 and see for yourself.
@steveoho Ever use the bible.cc website? I love the different versions and translations, it gives me a better idea of the intent and mutations of a verse over time/version. I have read the Bible, but a refresher on the specifics verses is always a good idea before responding. Col3:11 seems inclusive from a textual perspective, but how equal are a slave compared to a free man? It is lip-service. Just like our Declaration from a slave's perspective. Ask the slave about equality. A kinder slavery?
@matthewtaylorbrown >>it gives me a better idea of the intent and mutations of a verse over time/version
You do realize that they translate from the same source documents right? Most of the differences are based on exact literal vs a smoother 'meaning of the passage' translation. Also, the change of usage in the English language (biggest example - KJV). There is also a growing understanding of the meaning of older language and how to properly understand them.
@steveoho Most of them come from the same sources, but not all. You can read evidence into mutations of mutations and some of the verses have dissimilar objectives. Matthew itself is a great example of a flowery story line that mutated over time. It is more fantastic and exaggerated that the other three gospels. That is not proof that the other three are false. I just don't believe the miracles. I've lived in 4 countries, translations don't usually work if they are literal translations. Ufda!
The science of this is able to look at all the copies, make judgments of the sources, and come to a very close understanding of the original book. The Church father's sometimes even copied whole books in their letters to each other... enough for the whole bible. Also no major doctrines are affected
>>don't believe the miracles
how do you account that they, the eye-witnesses, did and died believing it?
@steveoho Philippines, Germany, Turkey, and the U.S.
Yes, the best look into the gospels is to look at all the translations of each event to get a great idea of the intend of the content. If one looks at a story of a miracle they usually start off with an acceptance or rejection of the notion before the story starts. If you listen with disbelief, you get the opposite than if you listened with belief. The same can be said of Qur'an and other holy books. How could I be compelled to differentiate?
@steveoho Many Christians have been rejecting the new translations from the scrolls and Greek texts. It would seem that a periodic readdress of the sources would be a good idea, but tradition is usually pretty firm.
Only for KJV only people do they say one set of the original documents are divinely inspired (I don't buy it as no major doctrine is affected)
Some translators do come with an agenda... like the new NIV and a couple others change words that say he to they or men to brothers and sisters... and some other small changes.
Most see danger in getting to far away from the literal (the Message or NLT... some even don't like NIV)
@matthewtaylorbrown >>It would be better if the original texts still existed.
Most modern Bible's have footnotes whenever there is even an ounce of question regarding a passage's authenticity. No major doctrine is threatened. Check out the book "The Case for Christ".
@steveoho This concept, in and of itself, requires faith. The believers don't question it in the first place. The believers assure themselves that the fact that the text exists, in any form, indicates or is proof that the texts of today are inerrant. The quality of the contents of Qur'an are viewed as the same. A Christian say that the facts within that that text can be questioned from the very beginning. Why would I give more credibility to one over the other?
No more than any other science. The evidence is examined - texts of the same document, from different locations, where they couldn't be compared to eachother, are brought back together in the present to examine deviations. The vast majority of errors are simple copyist errors. Not really a problem there...
@steveoho But you wouldn't consider the Qur'an to be correct and it has gone through the same scrutiny. Do you see why this is an issue from my perspective? All the holy books and their claims of miracles are similar to me.
@matthewtaylorbrown >>But you wouldn't consider the Qur'an to be correct and it has gone through the same scrutiny.
The Bible has gone through more scrutiny and been found more reliable. An example... the Qur'an has stories of Jesus that were taken from 3rd century writers that were known falsehoods.
>>All the holy books and their claims of miracles are similar to me.
The Qur'an does not depict any miracle. As I said, the religion spread by the sword/conquest/coercion.
@steveoho I understand that you see the Qur'an as false. It is easily dismissed as a mythology. It doesn't have to be true, but you have to understand that all holy books are the same to us. That is where we are coming from. This should be obvious as we are not believers. I understand why you see the Bible as truth, I too saw it as truth. What I believe now doesn't change its validity in the slightest. And it certainly has no affect on your belief.
That position is more one of an assumption of falsehood rather than one based on examination. It does not account for the fact that mass amounts of people believed they had actually seen Christ perform miracles, die and rise from the dead. Couple that with them suffering and dying proclaiming/defending this, doing miracles themselves, and suffering/dying all with no monetary gain and you have a conundrum for atheists.
@matthewtaylorbrown >>The quality of the contents of Qur'an are viewed as the same.
The Qur'an burned much of its early copies after one man gathered bits and pieces after Muhammad's death. Other evidence suggests other lost versions.
Christianity spread amongst those who'd least accept it, making outrageous claims without being rebuffed, the closest disciples going to their grim deaths believing the same. Qur'an spread by the sword... Christianity by truth. Take your pick
@steveoho Now, take that same contempt and distrust of Qur'an. It should be easy to understand someone's perspective when they distrust Qur'an and the Bible. Still, I understand the appeal of both to their followers. We don't trust the miracles within the texts and the actions of Muslims and Christians throughout the centuries. I see modern Christians as much better people than what is expected of them within the Bible.
@steveoho I don't see anyone stoning or burning anyone. I don't see slavery. I see Christians, in part, that are more moderate when it comes to interpreting the texts. I see gays being embraced. I see atheists being tolerated. I see pluralism at almost ever corner. Even witches are suffered. Christians are considering broader interpretations of the verses. They are more forgiving than in the past and within the texts. It's a pleasure living with Christians as our neighbors.
@matthewtaylorbrown Christians who embrace pluralism are not Christians. And the question shouldn't be what interpretation benefits us today, but what was intended when it was wrote.
Are you sure that you were ever truly a Christian? And I don't mean just called yourself a Christian and did/believed some of the same things as Christians, but had repented of your sins and put your trust in Christ's sacrifice on your behalf?
@matthewtaylorbrown >>how equal are a slave compared to a free man? It is lip-service.
Jesus said that everyone who sins is a slave to sin. That catchy phrase that "the truth shall set you free"? Well its from Jesus and he adds "my word is truth".
We're all slaves to sin. In bondage to our fears, our cravings of sinful man, the lust of our eyes and the boasting of what we have. Once we're free then our world begins to resemble what God's made us on the inside - free.
@steveoho I'm not one for taking slave out of context, like slave to sin. There are more direct examples referring to slavery. You trust the words of Jesus, I am not a believer that Jesus was divine, so it means something to you. I do like the truth phrase. Still, the freedom depicted are from the perspective of believers and their gods. If the gods don't exist, then it is just a perception. I'm not sure the slave would see it that way while being smacked by an sanctioned stick.
@matthewtaylorbrown Would you rather they go back to the OT where every man's sin was accounted against them and have them slaughter slave masters and anyone who does evil?
"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so." 1 Cor 7:21
Jesus didn't come to have an armed insurrection. The Jews thought to make them their king, but he rejected this and instead went to the cross by his choice.
@steveoho The OT and NT have no affect on me unless it affects the behaviors of the followers. Where does it say that slavery was evil? The best outcome of the rise of the church if Jesus has been the more humane treatment of animals. We went from sacrificing animal blood to our gods to sacrificing the blood of a man that some considered to be the Christ. The need for flood and drinking blood is unsettling to the outsider.
@steveoho After reading up on these two verses and the context around them, I think it is safe to consider that the comment describes a 'looked upon' or 'loved' perspective of Jesus. I don't see how this makes the people mentioned equal to each other. Man attempts to, and usually fails, at practicing equality. The Bible does not appear to command man to treat each other as equals. 'Thy neighbor' may not be inclusive if you read the commands about slavery, sinners, and enemies.
@matthewtaylorbrown >>Man attempts to, and usually fails, at practicing equality.
Yup, but as they become more Christ-like they get closer... because they begin to see people as God sees them.
>>'Thy neighbor' may not be inclusive
We're called to love your neighbor as well as our enemies. If taking a right view we should consider others better than ourselves. God changes the people on the inside and then the societies change naturally.
@matthewtaylorbrown Subjective = arbitrary... give a reason why you chose a criteria... why is that better? Somewhere down the line you'd have to admit it was arbitrary or at least say "I could never do that, but I can't explain why".
Looks arbitrary... the moral law is interesting in though we know it, we can (and often do) go against it. I'm curious... do you consider yourself to be a good person? Why?
Also, if you're willing to share, what religious background are you
@steveoho But I agree with you, it is arbitrary. My criteria is expressed as a norm or normal behavior in our society. Maybe it is more normal than better. We operate within the norms of society. When I was in Turkey, Germany, and the Philippines, I had to operate within their norms. I consider myself as good as I rarely go against the norms. I was raised (MD, NY, FL) as Southern Baptist. Then later in FL & WA as United Methodist. I lost faith in WA as a teen. I read the Bible on my own.
@matthewtaylorbrown Thank you for sharing that with me (btw, if you'd prefer you can pm me). Was there something in particular that convinced you that your faith was in vain? Also, can you tell me the gospel message as you understood/believed it?
@steveoho If I think about it, I'd have to say unanswered prayers got me started. They were in desperate times, I was seeking compassion and mercy. But that just raised the question of my worthiness or if I was just being ignored. Later it led to my wondering if there was anyone to listen to my pleas. There was a short phase when I considered God a burden. That later led to hate. There were a few fingers to the sky. The more I did it, the less I shook in fear. It seems so silly now.
>>There was a short phase when I considered God a burden.
I've been through that too... I didn't like the feelings that I felt and didn't know how to escape them and so I blamed God or those around me for them. Tell me, have you found peace? What do you think was the source of your anxiety?
@steveoho Than you might consider that I failed the test of faith. To me, I blamed my god (but not Jesus for some reason) for all the horrors in my life. I have found peace, I ran away to the military and saw the world. I consider myself enlightened and at peace. I wouldn't go back and change anything for fear that I would end up less than I am today.It was distress, not anxiety, everybody has their own horror stories.
Its not a test. God offers you this "free gift"... you can turn away from your broken, polluted, cisterns and pig pods and find real life in Christ.
>>I consider myself enlightened and at peace
To the belief that there is no truth except that there is no truth? Or that the horrors that came in your life weren't actually wrong? Jesus came that you might see life as it really is and not be blind any more. Open your eyes
@steveoho The 'test of faith' was for you. I just don't believe there is anything out there. I have no broken, polluted, cisterns and pig pods. That sounds like the pagans; worshipers of other gods. I've learned that truth is a matter of perspective. The Muslims and Christians both provide their truth when I already have my own. My eyes are wide open. Ironic, how two can see the same thing completely different.
I was referring to "My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water."
And the prodigal son's wasting of his inheritance resulting in him satisfying himself with pig pods to get by. They're both pictures of a lesser life when God offers sooooo much more.
@steveoho My perspective is true to me until I have reason to question it. As a skeptic I do question myself.
I still have my truth, without gods it can be only subjective. If one were to believe that a god existed and issued an absolute truth, that would be different and a fair view.
We see relative truth in our every day life. You need look no further than the compared truths of me, you, and the Muslim. Each has their truth.
Do you believe in the laws of logic... such as non-contradiction?
Also, if I believe that I can walk in front of a fast moving bus and not be hurt... am I right? Or does that bus have a more enlightened perspective than me?
@steveoho I've watched as others have gone in circles with non-contradictions. Opposing sides of issues don't recognize the other side's contradictions. If you walk in front of a bus, it might be a fatal decision. I don't believe a bus can be enlightened. Now actually being enlightened, who has actually ever been enlightened and everyone recognized it?
@matthewtaylorbrown The law of non-contradiction states that 'A' and 'not A' cannot both be true at the same time. If you don't hold to this as true then everything loses its meaning as a person can understand what you said whatever way they want.
@steveoho That is a popular site in debate with Christians. It will come as no surprise to you that I see zero proof that the Christian Jewish god exists. As I said, many polarized sides to an issue find it difficult to recognize the truths or facts provided by the other side. The majority of people on Earth do not recognize Jesus as divine. Your law of non-contradiction can only be valid when people see eye to eye on a matter. I'll have to listen to "Choosing Hats", new to me.
What is? The laws of logic? To do so would be to embrace absurdity.
>>I see zero proof
What did you see before that you thought you were a Christian then?
I'd suggest checking out Romans 1:18-32 (the whole book is good for that matter)... the ultimate evidence is revealed in the universe around us, our conscience (that good and evil exist), and God's interference with mankind (The Bible depicts this)
@steveoho I think all atheists should share their deconversion. I have always considered the gospels (the four books) to be the story of Jesus. That was until I read them myself. They were the first books I read, of course as a Matthew, that was my first. It is more colorful that the others. I've most familiar with Genesis (OT) and Matthew (NT). They contain much more than I had perceived from sermons. They are testimonies about man's path to salvation; God's gift. They are no longer real to me.
@matthewtaylorbrown "All subjective"??? Someone rapes and your mother, don't you want to see the criminal be brought to justice? Now move yourself to a nation that doesn't care about the rape and of women (something akin to Germany prior to WW2 and the "Jewish problem") the laws don't punish those who rape, what do you say to your mother now? "Hey mom, stop crying, rape is no big deal" Sorry, right and wrong is not subjective, it is objective! If there is law,then there must be a Law Giver!
@Sgtrev97 You just explained the subjectivity nature of morals very well. If morals were objective these things wouldn't happen. In your examples, I'm pretty sure they knew they were doing wrong and felt like they could get away with it. That doesn't mean they thought they were doing good. Jews and Christians used to own slaves, Pres. Washington used to own more slaves than any other in America. Modern Christian society now accommodate gays, atheists, and wicca. No stonings or burnings.
@matthewtaylorbrown You missed my point all together. Just because man says its "OK" or "their right" doesn't mean it is. Morals are absolute, regardless of what society says. Society has no morals other than what they think is ok in the moment, or what furthers the popular agenda. Morals are like math, 2+2 always equals 4 no matter what country you live in. True morals are the same, they span across borders, language, and culture. Just look at the timeless nature of Exodus Chapter 20.
@Sgtrev97 I agree, just because we say it is right or wrong does not make it so. I have to ask. If Adam and Eve in Genesis ate of the fruit of Knowledge and you believe we are decedents, wouldn't we have inherited the knowledge of good and evil from them?
What is the realized value of moral absolutes if they are not being followed? The Christians say that their morals are absolute, but our behaviors are similar. Shouldn't the behavior of the body-Christianity appear to be a moral people?
He's describing the Universe's attitude towards us. That doesn't mean we can't help fight against the indifference and improve society. In fact, instead of shoving your Bible down the throats of the miserable populations of the destitute regions of the world, work for the betterment of their condition in the name of humanism and without unnecessary superstitious nonsense.
Eternal life is God's gift to us. Our life here is our gift to God. He made us for his pleasure. He loves all of us and desires a relationship with us. We have free will to refuse his gift and deny his existence if we so wish it. He has given us all the proof we need to believe in him. It is our own selfish and sinful nature that chooses to defy and "crucify" him. Despite all of our imperfections and sins, he will still forgive us. All we need do is repent and believe on his son.
All have sinned and greatly offended the holy God of the bible. The just punishment is death then hell. That's not Gods will. He suffered and died on the cross paying for the law you broke in His life's blood so He could legally dismiss your case. You must repent turn from your sin and trust alone in Jesus Christ for your salvation.
@messakg123 God does not send anyone to Hell. People choose Hell through their unrepentant sin. It is not his will for anyone to go to Hell, but he loves us so he has given us free will. Love is free will. If you force someone to love you, then it is not truly love.
@austincwhitaker well, given the fact that god made the rules and the criteria by which souls are judged, created hell and is the ultimate judge of who goes where after we die I would say he's pretty much responsible for it. But ignoring that for a second, what youre saying is that a person going to hell is against the will of god, but i can still do it? So i ask again, is your god really omnipotent??
@messakg123 That is like blaming a judge for sending you to jail for a crime that you committed. You are guilty of the crime, so a truly righteous judge would give you what you deserve. It is not God's will that we live in sin, yet he gives us the choice to freely choose to accept him. It is a philosophical rule that true love is free will, there is no argument about that. As for omnipotence, that is a term created by man used to define God.
@austincwhitaker im not talking about living in sin, im talking about literally being sent to hell. God sends us to hell just like the judge sends the criminal to prison. Im not *blaming* god for my sin, im saying he's the one who sends people to hell.. And yes, i know omnipotence is term..? I'm asking if it's truely accurate in describing god given the argument you're making.
@messakg123 Although God may punish these people, they are in fact held responsible for their actions, and deserve Hell. This is justice. As for God's omnipotence in this argument, this is not a matter of can or can't, but a matter of will or won't. God is a righteous judge, and will carry out his judgement fairly on the just and the unjust.
@austincwhitaker Yes ppl are responsible for their actions, but im saying is the actual HELL part of it is god's doing. He runs the show. he made hell and if he wanted to get rid of it he could. If he thinks someone should go to hell, he'll send them there. It was HIS idea to punish people that way. Btw, do you actually think it's just that whether im a baby rapist or a non-believer, we get the same punishment? Or that i get eternal torture for demanding evidence for the things i believe?
@messakg123 If a loving father sees his child do something wrong, it is his job to correct the child. A true loving father will correct his child. Hell's flames were created by God's love. As for this extreme punishment being rational, or equal, all people have sinned at one point or another and therefore equally deserve punishment for their actions. It is not wrong to demand evidence of God, in fact I have questioned my beliefs many times, only to have them strengthened, and reassured.
@austincwhitaker right but to have a just system, you need t have graduated punishment- lesser crime => lesser punishment. Having it any other way is impractical. Imagine if that was our legal system. Someone rapes someone, they may as well kill them since this lowers their chance of getting caught and the punishment stays the same. It's a flawed system. What have you seen to reaffirm your faith, if I may be so curious?
@messakg123 I agree with you that it makes logical sense in our society, but according to God, if you have broken one commandment, then you have broken all of them. As for the Hell having separate levels of punishment, there are a few verses that have led some to believe this could be possible. However, the Bible clearly states that the unsaved will not inherit The Kingdom of God. Everything in our lives has a creator, and to me it does not make logical sense that we created ourselves over time.
@austincwhitaker Which verses show the possibility for graduated punishment in hell? And can you justify your assertion that everything has a creator? No one says anything creates itself. I didnt create myself. I came from my parents who came from their parents etc. etc. all the way back to the origins of life and ultimately to the origin of the universe which are, at this stage, unknown. But by the definition of causality, a thing cannot create itself and no-one holds this position
@messakg123 Haven't you read Dante's Inferno? jk haha. How about? Mat 10:15, Luk 10:13-14, Mat 23:14, Jon 19:11. If I show you a building, and ask you to prove to me that there is a builder, there is no way you will be able to prove to me there is a builder. But any reasonable mind can safely assume that someone had to have built this building, and to assume otherwise is just absurd. You said yourself that nothing can create itself, so then where did the universe come from if not created?
@austincwhitaker Yeah, i've read the whole bible. But in order for me to take those verses seriously i would have to accept the bible as true but if i did that you wouldnt even need to send me bible verses to convince me because id already believe it! :p We only know buildings have builders experientially. There are things that look designed that aren't (at least not by man) so it cant be due to any design features. We dont know how universes come into existence if at all so cant make judgement
@messakg123 Congratulations. You asked me for the verses so I gave them to you, and whether or not you choose to believe them is your choice. Well since there is no proof of abiogenesis, or speciation, and since the 2nd Law of thermo-dynamics shows how things decay over time, I am suggesting that an intelligent designer had something to do with this. Not to mention causality. The universe had to have a cause, so what was it?
@austincwhitaker Apologies, I was having a conversation with someone else asking what made them believe in God and got the two of you mixed up so when you started quoting Bible verses I was naturally inclined to point out the circularity of appealing to the bible to validate christianity. Sorry. And as for the rest of your comment, abiogenesis have both been observed under lab conditions, 2nd law of thermodynamics relates to energy not biological complexity, and argument from ignorance fallacy
Dawkins believes that the universe doesn't care about us, so we need to care about ourselves and take responsibility. Nowhere is it suggested that we should be as pitiless as the universe obviously is. If there is a loving creator, then his hands-off nature is quite paradoxical. It's depraved indifference.
It's sad that you think you need God to cajole you into being a good person. I don't need the threat of hell or the promise of heaven to make me a decent person.
@FactsBeforeFaith I would have to agree that we don't need the threat of hell or promise of heaven to make someone a "decent" person. Here's the thing, you are judging yourself by your standard rather than God's. So what is decent to us is not to him. To us, our "decentness" is to him, or more straightfoward "righteousness" or right standing, is nothing but filthy rags. And what precisely is paradoxical about the Creator's nature? Please reply back. Would love to chat.
@XLR8Street Hi, XL8Stree. What is paradoxical is that the Bible shows God at one moment as requiring the Israelites to commit atrocities. Duet 2, especially vs 34 has them killing every man, woman and child. He caused the flood which killed 99.999% of the population, etc. Then he's supposedly good for sending Jesus to die. He invented hell, and will burn us eternally for nothing more than not believing what can't be tested or proven. Then it tells us that he's loving and good.
@XLR8Street Every time I answer anyone's questions in any forum their response is to ignore my response and move on to another question. Can I kindly request that you give me some feedback on my last response before changing the subject. I'm not trying to evade, but it gets so "all-over-the place" otherwise.
@FactsBeforeFaith I am actually not ignoring your response but trying to get on a same level as you so I can understand where you are coming from. There is a reason I asked that question, not to rabbit trail you but to follow you along the same path. I just want to know what you define as good in your previous response.
@FactsBeforeFaith Okay, now I understand where you are coming from. I really thank you for that. I believe the dictionary definition of good which is to be morally excellent and righteous. And like the Bible says, only God is good, then therefore by logic, He must be morally excellent and righteous, correct? Especially if He created the moral law and everything good. Again this is following simple logic, nothing straying from the path that we are going down together.
@XLR8Street As a software engineer, I have no problem following your logic. But you actually have strayed from the path on your very first step, which was to make a whopper of an assumption, that the Bible is completely true and accurate.
I know with certainty that it is not 100% accurate, because of the numerous errors and contradictions within it. And because there are countless versions of the Bible, one is left asking which Bible? Catholic? KJV? Adventist? Mormon? Witness?
@FactsBeforeFaith I didn't know you were a software engineer, but awesome! I do believe that the Bible is 100% accurate because it is 100% supernatural and inspired by God. As far as which version, I go with the version that has countless antiquated manuscripts (Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.) to back it up and that meets the tests of canonicity and the latter half of the above statement. If you have a bible at home, read Isaiah 53 and tell me to whom it refers to if you would.
@XLR8Street I understand that you're using to Socratic Method to ask as many questions as you can, while answering as few as possible. There's nothing wrong with that. But if I were to use the same method, our discussion would be nothing but a bunch of questions and no answers. Which might be more productive since I believe it's good to question everything.
You did answer my question about which Bible. Thanks. But I don't have any good reason to believe it and many reasons not to.
@XLR8Street Now, the original topic was basically can we be good without belief in the Christian God? I proposed that it's illogical to believe we get our morality from him, when your sacred texts prove that he is not moral, and he has required his follower to be immoral on a number of occasions.
You keep trying to funnel me down some other path. Haven't your heard that trying to organize Atheists is like trying to herd cats? As a freethinker I guess I'm resistant to being herded.
@FactsBeforeFaith Didn't know it was a method. I am just curious. As far as the original question goes, I believe we can be "good" by the our definition of "good" without God. Doesn't mean its a right viewpoint. If it is illogical to believe we get morality from Him, then where did it come from? Chemicals, time, chance, and matter, cannot create morals. Why? Morals are immaterial. They are coded deep down inside us that says this is right and wrong.
@XLR8Street I don't have all of the answers. Science doesn't have all the answers. But not having all the answers doesn't suggest God. I think there's some pretty compelling evidence that we evolved in a way that led to us realizing that it's not best to destroy ourselves. Obviously it's not perfect, because we continue to self destruct so some degree. Now, if God made us, it doesn't change the fact that some of us are decent, some of us are psycho, some of us are self destructive.
@FactsBeforeFaith And neither do I my friend. I come from a science/math background and know it doesn't have all the answers. I have to take things on faith. Even as a Christian, I don't have all the answers because I am human, I am not God. I don't know why God does some things the way He does in reference to the scripture you brought out, but I know deep down He exists because of faith and experience. He has given us a moral standard to follow, which we can't by a long shot.
@XLR8Street I'm glad that you admit that you don't have all of the answers. I respect your right to have faith. Unfortunately it seems to me that with many theists today that respect is not reciprocal. We all have a right to believe or not believe.
@FactsBeforeFaith I respect your honesty and your opinion. Indeed we all have a right to choose what to believe or not. But when you believe something that is more than life itself, wouldn't you want to share? I plead with you, as a fellow human, to look again at the Bible, God, Jesus, and your position with Him right now. You can take it or leave it. Read Romans if you have your Bible. And if you want to continue chatting with me, I can give you my email on different subjects.
@FactsBeforeFaith It's because of sin. A going against God and the image we are created in (Imago Dei). And if God is good, then if we derivate off the standard, we are evil and not good, which entails that justice must be done to those who go against it. The Bible says, "my actions are not your actions, and my thoughts not your thougts". Doesn't that in some way resonate? I thank you for your honesty in say you don't know everything.
@XLR8Street "my actions are not your actions, and my thoughts not your thougts" I know it resonates for some. But to me God's actions are men's actions and vic versa. When in the violent desert, the Israelites were violent and God was violent. When under Roman rule they were more subservient and so was God/Jesus. We can see in the Bible an evolution of God as times & environment changed. Christians claim that God never changes, but he clearly does.
@FactsBeforeFaith I just recorded a podcast talking about how Christians claim that we should strive to be more like God, but there are places in the Bible that contradict this.
Gen 3:22+ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
@FactsBeforeFaith Based on the Eden story it seems that God damned the world because people became to much like him. He took steps to keep them from being more like him.
Notice that they were doomed for gaining too much knowledge. We're to believe that they were damned for disobedience? What is disobedience or sin to the mind of someone with no knowledge of good or evil?
Regardless, I can't take a story about talking snakes and men made of clay and breath too seriously.
@FactsBeforeFaith Let me pose this to you, those who follow/trust God mimic God's character because of an indwelling Spirit. If God wants justice to be done, He leads people according to His word to institute justice (His hands and feet). If God became a servant in Christ, would He also not expect the same (which He does talk about in the Gospels). God has always shown love, mercy, grace, justice and retribution towards His creation and His people.
@XLR8Street You're welcome to make any proposition that you like. All I can do to weight the likelihood of the proposition is:
1. Examine the claimant.
2. Examine the sources cited.
3. Examine the logic used, if any.
4. Test to see if their proposition actually works.
The problem, and it's one I doubt we'll overcome, is that you put your trust in an a book that I have many reasons not to trust. A book that doesn't pass the above tests. Even if God exists the Bible shows he's evil.
@FactsBeforeFaith Then I will propose this...Taste and see that the Lord is good. Repent and trust in Jesus my friend. Reexamine the evidence, and even if you don't believe in God, remember that all that has been said here will be played on Judgment Day. Which side you are on determines your outcome. I am not willing you should die in sin and go to a place of eternal punishment...but that like God in love, you would repent and be given life anew in Christ Jesus. Repent/Trust.
@XLR8Street I have to say that was the nicest way anyone's ever told me that I'm going straight to hell :) I got a bit of a chuckle although I know you're dead serious. Well, at least I'll see Jesus when I'm there. Rev 14:10 says he'll be there watching, "...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" And most Christians think the devil presides over hell. Nope, It's peaceful loving Jesus. Rather sadistic.
@FactsBeforeFaith Since you're obviously not going to address any of the aforementioned concerns that I've raised and have used the time to preach instead... Since we're on the topic of hell, you know how the Bible says that God's not willing that any should perish and that Jesus was coming back soon? Isn't it odd, that 2000 years later, around 77% of the population is non-Christian (damned). If Christ had returned "soon" how many fewer damned would there have been be?
@FactsBeforeFaith God is willing that none should perish, thats why Christ died for me and you. He doesn't want to see His creation be damned but because of His goodness, He must carry out justice or He would not be the righteous judge of us all. As far as when Jesus is coming back, as the book of Matthew states, no one knows the hour in which the Son of Man comes, not the angels, nor the Son but the Father only. And how do you know that that 77% is correct?
@FactsBeforeFaith Yet you don't have to. That's what I am saying and pleading with you. Jesus is not just a peaceful and loving but He is also just and must see the punishment carried out. Matthew 7 and Revelations show some of how justice will be carried out by Christ. And yes God presides over Hell and the devil because God is greater than them. Jesus has the keys to life and death (the second death), since we all have one day in which we will die.
@FactsBeforeFaith I have one more question to ask...did you come from a "christian" background were someone said, say this little prayer and all will be well, you will be saved, and once one trial hit, you thought God was evil or unjust to let it happen? Please answer honestly.
@XLR8Street Hehe, far from it. Raised SDA, 8 years of church school. Read the Bible at 16. Then read the NT a second time because it didn't matchwhat I'd been taught. Left the SDA church at 17, was persecuted to some extent, but actually increased in my faith. Remained basically Wesleyan for the past 20 years. But after the SDA church I refused to allow any denomination to interpret the Bible for me. My leaving Christianity had to do with rational thought, not due to any life event.
@XLR8Street I've read Isaiah 53 many times. I read the Bible cover-to-cover at 16 and the New Testament more than once. Your attempt to prove Jesus through the use of your own sacred texts holds no more weight than a Muslim using the Quran to prove whatever they want to. Do you need to prove to every Muslim out there that you don't need to believe in the Quran or the Hadith?
I've already pointed out that there are serious problems with the Bible. Why would I give credence to it?
yeah you're absolutely right. It makes no sense to say things like that and then live a life which contradicts that belief. If he believes that, the only reason or motivation he should have for doing what he is doing, is that he doesn't give a stuff about anyone else and wants to grab whatever he can for himself in a loveless existence to keep his head above water while standing on the corpses of those beneath him. Wise up Dawkins and get off your soap box, you have nothing to offer
Who's R Dawkins anyway? Some kinda know-it-all professor? And just because he has Ph.D he must be right? Whoever he is, he is a huge HYPOCRITE, because he doesn't live according to his "beliefs".
I'm convinced that the worst punishment God can do to a person is to let him believe his own favorite lies. Those people will be a subject to the funniest ever divine joke when they die.
Exactly,except that logic breaksdown with the fact he just said words that are used to describe things,in other words meanings to things,actions,Intentionality.
Also good work on that logic fail, with it being wrong to teach Christianity while at the same time saying nothing is wrong...
I find the Biblical explication of the nature of things reasonable and inspired. Those who have been given to be inspired and informed by a transcendent and immanent God have done well to allow the best humanly possible to emerge from the product of this relationship; Holy Scripture is definitely inspired by God. Great humility has been the result of this relationship, and is also the spirit required to understand the messages and the meanings of the texts. Any other attitude is valueless.
By saying that the universe is founded on basic principles that know nothing of morality, Dawkin's was making no statement about the actions of people and their personal choices. You don't understand his words.
unifiedreality 1 week ago
because religion is dangerous to science. richard dawkins is a scientist
xenoman4421 1 week ago
@alexander74511 Your argument has NO weight. Is it wrong to murder? Yes! Is it wrong to rape? Yes! Is it wrong to steel? Yes? Does society have murderers, rapists & thieves? Yes! Just because people choose to live immoraly doesn't make the morals relative.
Sgtrev97 2 weeks ago
@Sgtrev97 Why is it wrong to steel?
scrap222666 1 week ago
@scrap222666 Sorry about the typo, steal. And you know it is wrong to steal.
Sgtrev97 1 week ago
@Sgtrev97 No problem and yes I know. Although I think your reasoning to what makes it wrong is different to mine. You probably think an eternal God is the reason, I see it as a social construct. Under certain conditions even stealing would be good for example I would definitely steal a murderers gun,knife or any other weapon if I knew he or she used it to hurt people and I would get away without him or her noticing it. God on the other hand would sentence me to hell for that.
scrap222666 1 week ago
@scrap222666 Yes, you are correct. The same creator who gave us the law of time, gravity, etc etc also gave us moral law. You hit the nail on the head. But, if I use your reason (social construct) as to why it is wrong. It is still wrong, because society also thinks it is wrong to steal. Society does not think it is wrong to take away from a murderer a gun, knife or any other weapon. Neither does God. If man has a sense of justice, how much higher is God's?
Sgtrev97 1 week ago
@Sgtrev97 Then my man you are going against your own scripture that has "Thou shall not steal" in it. Or if I am wrong point me to the verse in the Bible that states that certain stealing is ok.
scrap222666 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
You don't have the mind to understand the subject you're tackling. "I don't understand the platform he's running on" - no kidding. Keep your dime store philosophy kid, you're not anywhere near as wise as you are pompous.
mrtannercampbell 4 weeks ago
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mrtannercampbell 4 weeks ago
Excellent point, friend... excellent point.
If he really believes this bullshit (he doesn't, actually...), and nothing really matters at all, he could do all of us a great favor: promoting his cause by shutting his big mouth and preventing his selfish genes to express what he is... In a purposeless world, what is the difference, right?
feanando 4 weeks ago
I came across riseofatheism's post who addresses my last post. Well said riseofatheism...my next question would be how is it that the universe is pitiless and indifferent. How do you arrive at this? I see purpose and design as intuitive.
BATRPRO 4 weeks ago
Great post and great philosophical point. Frederick Nietzsche was faced with the same dilemma when he came up with his übermensch. He acknowledged that to create the übermensch was counter intuitive to his philosophical view. Even though he acknowledged there was no purpose in life he came up with one any way. This is self defeating. Man has an innate awareness of purpose and morality.
BATRPRO 4 weeks ago
Its not a campaign its just truth.Why would you lie to people?The purpose is what you make it.I think its allot better than being created to be a Gods pet.I mean if Christianity is correct our purpose is to love a God.That is why we exist, because a God is so insecure that he needed to create a group of stupid meat bags to worship him.If you don't you are tortured forever without mercy.But he still loves you.Unconditional love,with some severe conditions.
FR0STY0115 4 weeks ago
If evolution is true and the atheists are right that there is no God, then who cares what Christians think. But if Christianity is true and the atheists are wrong, watch out!
Sgtrev97 4 weeks ago
WOW...... let me google a shit to FUCKING GIVE.... now thanks for your time
TheeSuperJazzer 4 weeks ago
Richard is so emotional over this, I wonder why respectful circles tolerate him?
yewles1 4 weeks ago
Why would you spam this video out? Who the fuck cares about Religion! If you need false hope to get by in life, you aren't worthy of being any sort of speaker. You're just another crazy sheep that thinks Christianity is supreme and talk trash about any other Religion. Go quote some scriptures and act like it makes you a perfectly well informed Christian. You're just another mouth puppet controlled by your own self pity. Grow up and fight for something worth fighting for.
dankish 4 weeks ago
@dankish "you need false hope to get by in life" Hey buddy, I bet you believe that faith is a crutch to prop people up, When was the last time you believed in something so strongly that you were willing to stand "on the box" in public and declare it to the world? My faith is not my crutch it is my enabler! Galatians 2:20 KJV
Sgtrev97 4 weeks ago
That was informative!!!
MnRProdMariolaur 1 month ago
none of these comments below answer the question posed in the video.
BenPeckover 1 month ago
It shouldn't be taught in schools, and if it is, *EVERY SINGLE* other religion should be taught as well, along with atheist beliefs.
I'm glad I escaped the ignorance of Christianity.
AlexWerkmeister712 1 month ago
I think there's an equivalency fallacy happening here and this may help clear it up.
The universe is pitiless and indifferent.
Richard Dawkins is not pitiless and indifferent.
Notice that just because the universe itself has no rhyme or reason, no pity or justice, nor mercy, no ultimate goals or desires, doesn't mean an individual cannot. The equivocation fallacy is that just because the universe is these things, doesn't mean that person X is also all these things.
riseofatheism 1 month ago
Hey Chad, love your vids man.
Do you have a testimony vid of how you got saved?? If so would love to see it.
Thanks
kingdmculture 1 month ago
This guy is a moron.
globalchaos1984 1 month ago
@globalchaos1984 Actually, he's probably smarter than you
RasheemH 1 month ago in playlist More videos from rationalresponder
@RasheemH lol @ theists trying to be witty.
globalchaos1984 1 month ago
I never understand why they(atheists) get all worked up. If they feel we are wrong about God and his existence why fight? Does it really matter to spend so much time trying to prove a Christian wrong?Does it make them at peace with themselves? Truth is, I think they are afraid. Atheist that spend so much time fighting us Christians are worried, and should be.
PS.
Tooooooo funny about you wife comin in bro. God bless.
nailed2thecr0ss 1 month ago
he is right. the universe we live in has no consciousness and itself but the laws that govern it so graciously allow us to exist. your question of "why care?" is ultimately the morality one, yes? we always want our lives to e the best, most fruitful and longest as possble correct? if we speak out against injustices and promote that which will ultimately benefit society, our lives, and the lives of others, will obey that description. to care for others is to care for self, and even beyond that.
sorry8140 1 month ago
@sorry8140 Or it might be shackling your from opening new possibilities such as new definitions of injustice, new definitions of life, new and different societies.
steveoho 1 month ago
After watching this video, it's plainly obvious that people can't accept the truth that Richard Dawkins is spreading... They would rather believe in some make-believe God that never existed,
Mr. Dawkins lives in reality and people of religion can't handle it.
ryantheatheist22 1 month ago
I believe these things are true... I just cannot live as if they are :( Wretched man that I am.
steveoho 1 month ago
It is his version of "Why bad things happen to good people." The universe isn't caring or just. That is the space we have always lived in and flourish. It is not a bad thing to realize this. You fly into a star and there is no forgiveness. I'm reminded of a line is use regularly, but don't know the author, "The ultimate punishment for stupidity is death." Don't blame the universe if you didn't mean to fall from a 20 story building. It is a contrast to explain why bad things happen.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown What does that mean if everyone dies... :P
Also, under the logical outpourings of Dawkins belief... the guy who fell to his death... its not bad, it just is.
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho The universe doesn't care of someone dies or harmed. Our local star and our planet don't are also not concerned. It is just you and I that can empathize with another's pain. Things happen, you and I decide if it is good or bad, and then usually from our own perspective. I see the killing of Osama as a good thing, I doubt if everyone agrees with me. A lady walks away with joy after identifying a body she had believed was her son. She is glad the dead body was someone else.All subjective
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown You recognize that irrespective of culture how a person in their right mind would feel, you live as if you believe moral truth is real, but you deny it with your words. Whats so wrong with the idea that there might be a universal morality?
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho I'm not sure what a 'moral truth' could be. We have agreed upon normal behavior. We don't always agree on the moral issues. I'm an atheist and think that abortion is disturbing, good luck putting that genie back in the bottle. I used to believe that capital punishment was justified, in my 40s I determined otherwise. I've seen other go through similar changes. I don't see the absolute morals for which you infer, not in society, within individuals, and certainly not from Christianity.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown Does it bother you that all men being born equal and with inalienable rights might not actually be true? That regardless of what is agreed upon, it would be arbitrary?
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho Equality is a man-made idea. The Bible does not depict equality. If equality exists, it is because we make it happen. We see to failures at our efforts of equality, but in general we are doing much better then in the past. After all, if we were born into slavery, there isn't much equality. I agree arbitrary, indeed. I wouldn't not argue that subjective = arbitrary in this case.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown "The Bible does not depict equality"
Both men and women are created in the image of God. You can't get a higher value for mankind and this would display equality well as God does not show partiality.
"we are doing much better then in the past"
To even say that there is a standard for equality, that one form of equality is better than another, seems to import morality into something where it wasn't before.
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho The simple mention of slavery is in the Bible is not a sample of equality, especially since it is used as a good example of serving instead of speaking out against it or no mention of a commandment that slavery is evil. It is not enough to declare equality at the moment of birth when that moment also means being born in to slavery. The books of the Bible were depicted in the context where slavery was a fact of life. Yet it is evil and inequality.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown While my saying slavery in the Bible was considerably better among the Jews that doesn't mean that it was right under any circumstance. One of the laws permitted in the OT was a certificate of divorce. Jesus explained that although God hated divorce he allowed it because of their hard hearts. In the same way God hates inequality. We see this in the NT - use your Bible to look up Colossians 3:11 or Galatians 3:28 and see for yourself.
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho Ever use the bible.cc website? I love the different versions and translations, it gives me a better idea of the intent and mutations of a verse over time/version. I have read the Bible, but a refresher on the specifics verses is always a good idea before responding. Col3:11 seems inclusive from a textual perspective, but how equal are a slave compared to a free man? It is lip-service. Just like our Declaration from a slave's perspective. Ask the slave about equality. A kinder slavery?
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >>it gives me a better idea of the intent and mutations of a verse over time/version
You do realize that they translate from the same source documents right? Most of the differences are based on exact literal vs a smoother 'meaning of the passage' translation. Also, the change of usage in the English language (biggest example - KJV). There is also a growing understanding of the meaning of older language and how to properly understand them.
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho Most of them come from the same sources, but not all. You can read evidence into mutations of mutations and some of the verses have dissimilar objectives. Matthew itself is a great example of a flowery story line that mutated over time. It is more fantastic and exaggerated that the other three gospels. That is not proof that the other three are false. I just don't believe the miracles. I've lived in 4 countries, translations don't usually work if they are literal translations. Ufda!
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >>4 countries
Which ones?
>>mutations of mutations
The science of this is able to look at all the copies, make judgments of the sources, and come to a very close understanding of the original book. The Church father's sometimes even copied whole books in their letters to each other... enough for the whole bible. Also no major doctrines are affected
>>don't believe the miracles
how do you account that they, the eye-witnesses, did and died believing it?
steveoho 1 month ago
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matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@steveoho Philippines, Germany, Turkey, and the U.S.
Yes, the best look into the gospels is to look at all the translations of each event to get a great idea of the intend of the content. If one looks at a story of a miracle they usually start off with an acceptance or rejection of the notion before the story starts. If you listen with disbelief, you get the opposite than if you listened with belief. The same can be said of Qur'an and other holy books. How could I be compelled to differentiate?
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@matthewtaylorbrown >>How could I be compelled to differentiate?
The people who wrote the Bible saw these miracles, lived in light of them, and suffered and died believing them to be true.
The Qur'an has no miracles. His group was very small for years until they started raiding caravans... then more came because it was lucrative.
Another reason to differentiate is because if what they're saying is true... then you're on your way to hell by both of their accounts.
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho Many Christians have been rejecting the new translations from the scrolls and Greek texts. It would seem that a periodic readdress of the sources would be a good idea, but tradition is usually pretty firm.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >>rejecting the new translations
Only for KJV only people do they say one set of the original documents are divinely inspired (I don't buy it as no major doctrine is affected)
Some translators do come with an agenda... like the new NIV and a couple others change words that say he to they or men to brothers and sisters... and some other small changes.
Most see danger in getting to far away from the literal (the Message or NLT... some even don't like NIV)
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho It would be better if the original texts still existed.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >>It would be better if the original texts still existed.
Most modern Bible's have footnotes whenever there is even an ounce of question regarding a passage's authenticity. No major doctrine is threatened. Check out the book "The Case for Christ".
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho This concept, in and of itself, requires faith. The believers don't question it in the first place. The believers assure themselves that the fact that the text exists, in any form, indicates or is proof that the texts of today are inerrant. The quality of the contents of Qur'an are viewed as the same. A Christian say that the facts within that that text can be questioned from the very beginning. Why would I give more credibility to one over the other?
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >>This concept, in and of itself, requires faith.
No more than any other science. The evidence is examined - texts of the same document, from different locations, where they couldn't be compared to eachother, are brought back together in the present to examine deviations. The vast majority of errors are simple copyist errors. Not really a problem there...
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho But you wouldn't consider the Qur'an to be correct and it has gone through the same scrutiny. Do you see why this is an issue from my perspective? All the holy books and their claims of miracles are similar to me.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >>But you wouldn't consider the Qur'an to be correct and it has gone through the same scrutiny.
The Bible has gone through more scrutiny and been found more reliable. An example... the Qur'an has stories of Jesus that were taken from 3rd century writers that were known falsehoods.
>>All the holy books and their claims of miracles are similar to me.
The Qur'an does not depict any miracle. As I said, the religion spread by the sword/conquest/coercion.
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho I understand that you see the Qur'an as false. It is easily dismissed as a mythology. It doesn't have to be true, but you have to understand that all holy books are the same to us. That is where we are coming from. This should be obvious as we are not believers. I understand why you see the Bible as truth, I too saw it as truth. What I believe now doesn't change its validity in the slightest. And it certainly has no affect on your belief.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
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@matthewtaylorbrown >>all holy books are the same to us
That position is more one of an assumption of falsehood rather than one based on examination. It does not account for the fact that mass amounts of people believed they had actually seen Christ perform miracles, die and rise from the dead. Couple that with them suffering and dying proclaiming/defending this, doing miracles themselves, and suffering/dying all with no monetary gain and you have a conundrum for atheists.
steveoho 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >>The quality of the contents of Qur'an are viewed as the same.
The Qur'an burned much of its early copies after one man gathered bits and pieces after Muhammad's death. Other evidence suggests other lost versions.
Christianity spread amongst those who'd least accept it, making outrageous claims without being rebuffed, the closest disciples going to their grim deaths believing the same. Qur'an spread by the sword... Christianity by truth. Take your pick
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho Now, take that same contempt and distrust of Qur'an. It should be easy to understand someone's perspective when they distrust Qur'an and the Bible. Still, I understand the appeal of both to their followers. We don't trust the miracles within the texts and the actions of Muslims and Christians throughout the centuries. I see modern Christians as much better people than what is expected of them within the Bible.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >>I see modern Christians as much better people than what is expected of them within the Bible.
God's standard is perfection in our actions, thoughts, and words... I'm not sure how you can get better than that.
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho I don't see anyone stoning or burning anyone. I don't see slavery. I see Christians, in part, that are more moderate when it comes to interpreting the texts. I see gays being embraced. I see atheists being tolerated. I see pluralism at almost ever corner. Even witches are suffered. Christians are considering broader interpretations of the verses. They are more forgiving than in the past and within the texts. It's a pleasure living with Christians as our neighbors.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown Christians who embrace pluralism are not Christians. And the question shouldn't be what interpretation benefits us today, but what was intended when it was wrote.
Are you sure that you were ever truly a Christian? And I don't mean just called yourself a Christian and did/believed some of the same things as Christians, but had repented of your sins and put your trust in Christ's sacrifice on your behalf?
steveoho 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >>how equal are a slave compared to a free man? It is lip-service.
Jesus said that everyone who sins is a slave to sin. That catchy phrase that "the truth shall set you free"? Well its from Jesus and he adds "my word is truth".
We're all slaves to sin. In bondage to our fears, our cravings of sinful man, the lust of our eyes and the boasting of what we have. Once we're free then our world begins to resemble what God's made us on the inside - free.
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho I'm not one for taking slave out of context, like slave to sin. There are more direct examples referring to slavery. You trust the words of Jesus, I am not a believer that Jesus was divine, so it means something to you. I do like the truth phrase. Still, the freedom depicted are from the perspective of believers and their gods. If the gods don't exist, then it is just a perception. I'm not sure the slave would see it that way while being smacked by an sanctioned stick.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown Would you rather they go back to the OT where every man's sin was accounted against them and have them slaughter slave masters and anyone who does evil?
"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so." 1 Cor 7:21
Jesus didn't come to have an armed insurrection. The Jews thought to make them their king, but he rejected this and instead went to the cross by his choice.
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho The OT and NT have no affect on me unless it affects the behaviors of the followers. Where does it say that slavery was evil? The best outcome of the rise of the church if Jesus has been the more humane treatment of animals. We went from sacrificing animal blood to our gods to sacrificing the blood of a man that some considered to be the Christ. The need for flood and drinking blood is unsettling to the outsider.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@steveoho After reading up on these two verses and the context around them, I think it is safe to consider that the comment describes a 'looked upon' or 'loved' perspective of Jesus. I don't see how this makes the people mentioned equal to each other. Man attempts to, and usually fails, at practicing equality. The Bible does not appear to command man to treat each other as equals. 'Thy neighbor' may not be inclusive if you read the commands about slavery, sinners, and enemies.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
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@matthewtaylorbrown >>Man attempts to, and usually fails, at practicing equality.
Yup, but as they become more Christ-like they get closer... because they begin to see people as God sees them.
>>'Thy neighbor' may not be inclusive
We're called to love your neighbor as well as our enemies. If taking a right view we should consider others better than ourselves. God changes the people on the inside and then the societies change naturally.
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho There are at least two way of looking at this:
1. A god-creator dictated or built-in Christian/Jewish moral values.
2. Man has developed moral values.
A Christian might be more inclined to select option 1, as there is a god.
An atheist might be more inclined to select option 2, as there are no gods.
Arbitrary?
After examining the moral values and actions of people in written history, it sure looks arbitrary.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown Subjective = arbitrary... give a reason why you chose a criteria... why is that better? Somewhere down the line you'd have to admit it was arbitrary or at least say "I could never do that, but I can't explain why".
Looks arbitrary... the moral law is interesting in though we know it, we can (and often do) go against it. I'm curious... do you consider yourself to be a good person? Why?
Also, if you're willing to share, what religious background are you
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho But I agree with you, it is arbitrary. My criteria is expressed as a norm or normal behavior in our society. Maybe it is more normal than better. We operate within the norms of society. When I was in Turkey, Germany, and the Philippines, I had to operate within their norms. I consider myself as good as I rarely go against the norms. I was raised (MD, NY, FL) as Southern Baptist. Then later in FL & WA as United Methodist. I lost faith in WA as a teen. I read the Bible on my own.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown Thank you for sharing that with me (btw, if you'd prefer you can pm me). Was there something in particular that convinced you that your faith was in vain? Also, can you tell me the gospel message as you understood/believed it?
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho If I think about it, I'd have to say unanswered prayers got me started. They were in desperate times, I was seeking compassion and mercy. But that just raised the question of my worthiness or if I was just being ignored. Later it led to my wondering if there was anyone to listen to my pleas. There was a short phase when I considered God a burden. That later led to hate. There were a few fingers to the sky. The more I did it, the less I shook in fear. It seems so silly now.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >>I was seeking compassion and mercy.
How did/do you think God views you?
>>There was a short phase when I considered God a burden.
I've been through that too... I didn't like the feelings that I felt and didn't know how to escape them and so I blamed God or those around me for them. Tell me, have you found peace? What do you think was the source of your anxiety?
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho Than you might consider that I failed the test of faith. To me, I blamed my god (but not Jesus for some reason) for all the horrors in my life. I have found peace, I ran away to the military and saw the world. I consider myself enlightened and at peace. I wouldn't go back and change anything for fear that I would end up less than I am today.It was distress, not anxiety, everybody has their own horror stories.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown "I failed the test of faith"
Its not a test. God offers you this "free gift"... you can turn away from your broken, polluted, cisterns and pig pods and find real life in Christ.
>>I consider myself enlightened and at peace
To the belief that there is no truth except that there is no truth? Or that the horrors that came in your life weren't actually wrong? Jesus came that you might see life as it really is and not be blind any more. Open your eyes
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho The 'test of faith' was for you. I just don't believe there is anything out there. I have no broken, polluted, cisterns and pig pods. That sounds like the pagans; worshipers of other gods. I've learned that truth is a matter of perspective. The Muslims and Christians both provide their truth when I already have my own. My eyes are wide open. Ironic, how two can see the same thing completely different.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
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@matthewtaylorbrown >>I have no broken, polluted, cisterns and pig pods.
I was referring to "My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water."
And the prodigal son's wasting of his inheritance resulting in him satisfying himself with pig pods to get by. They're both pictures of a lesser life when God offers sooooo much more.
steveoho 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >>I've learned that truth is a matter of perspective
Is that a perspective or is that true?
proofthatgodexistsdotorg
>>I already have my own [truth]
You have an answer maybe, but by your own admission you cannot say or know that its true.
>>My eyes are wide open
By saying that truth is relative you're denying that truth even exists. You're denying that anything is knowable. How can you "see" with those eyes?
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho My perspective is true to me until I have reason to question it. As a skeptic I do question myself.
I still have my truth, without gods it can be only subjective. If one were to believe that a god existed and issued an absolute truth, that would be different and a fair view.
We see relative truth in our every day life. You need look no further than the compared truths of me, you, and the Muslim. Each has their truth.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >> My perspective is true to me
Do you believe in the laws of logic... such as non-contradiction?
Also, if I believe that I can walk in front of a fast moving bus and not be hurt... am I right? Or does that bus have a more enlightened perspective than me?
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho I've watched as others have gone in circles with non-contradictions. Opposing sides of issues don't recognize the other side's contradictions. If you walk in front of a bus, it might be a fatal decision. I don't believe a bus can be enlightened. Now actually being enlightened, who has actually ever been enlightened and everyone recognized it?
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown The law of non-contradiction states that 'A' and 'not A' cannot both be true at the same time. If you don't hold to this as true then everything loses its meaning as a person can understand what you said whatever way they want.
check out proofthatgodexists dotorg
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho That is a popular site in debate with Christians. It will come as no surprise to you that I see zero proof that the Christian Jewish god exists. As I said, many polarized sides to an issue find it difficult to recognize the truths or facts provided by the other side. The majority of people on Earth do not recognize Jesus as divine. Your law of non-contradiction can only be valid when people see eye to eye on a matter. I'll have to listen to "Choosing Hats", new to me.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown >>That is a popular site in debate with Christians.
What is? The laws of logic? To do so would be to embrace absurdity.
>>I see zero proof
What did you see before that you thought you were a Christian then?
I'd suggest checking out Romans 1:18-32 (the whole book is good for that matter)... the ultimate evidence is revealed in the universe around us, our conscience (that good and evil exist), and God's interference with mankind (The Bible depicts this)
steveoho 1 month ago
@steveoho I think all atheists should share their deconversion. I have always considered the gospels (the four books) to be the story of Jesus. That was until I read them myself. They were the first books I read, of course as a Matthew, that was my first. It is more colorful that the others. I've most familiar with Genesis (OT) and Matthew (NT). They contain much more than I had perceived from sermons. They are testimonies about man's path to salvation; God's gift. They are no longer real to me.
matthewtaylorbrown 1 month ago
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@matthewtaylorbrown >>I think all atheists should share their deconversion.
What would you say the gospel (good news) message is? How does one attain salvation? I'm asking to understand what it meant to be a Christian to you.
steveoho 1 month ago
@matthewtaylorbrown "All subjective"??? Someone rapes and your mother, don't you want to see the criminal be brought to justice? Now move yourself to a nation that doesn't care about the rape and of women (something akin to Germany prior to WW2 and the "Jewish problem") the laws don't punish those who rape, what do you say to your mother now? "Hey mom, stop crying, rape is no big deal" Sorry, right and wrong is not subjective, it is objective! If there is law,then there must be a Law Giver!
Sgtrev97 4 weeks ago
@Sgtrev97 You just explained the subjectivity nature of morals very well. If morals were objective these things wouldn't happen. In your examples, I'm pretty sure they knew they were doing wrong and felt like they could get away with it. That doesn't mean they thought they were doing good. Jews and Christians used to own slaves, Pres. Washington used to own more slaves than any other in America. Modern Christian society now accommodate gays, atheists, and wicca. No stonings or burnings.
matthewtaylorbrown 4 weeks ago
@matthewtaylorbrown You missed my point all together. Just because man says its "OK" or "their right" doesn't mean it is. Morals are absolute, regardless of what society says. Society has no morals other than what they think is ok in the moment, or what furthers the popular agenda. Morals are like math, 2+2 always equals 4 no matter what country you live in. True morals are the same, they span across borders, language, and culture. Just look at the timeless nature of Exodus Chapter 20.
Sgtrev97 3 weeks ago
@Sgtrev97 I agree, just because we say it is right or wrong does not make it so. I have to ask. If Adam and Eve in Genesis ate of the fruit of Knowledge and you believe we are decedents, wouldn't we have inherited the knowledge of good and evil from them?
What is the realized value of moral absolutes if they are not being followed? The Christians say that their morals are absolute, but our behaviors are similar. Shouldn't the behavior of the body-Christianity appear to be a moral people?
matthewtaylorbrown 3 weeks ago
He's describing the Universe's attitude towards us. That doesn't mean we can't help fight against the indifference and improve society. In fact, instead of shoving your Bible down the throats of the miserable populations of the destitute regions of the world, work for the betterment of their condition in the name of humanism and without unnecessary superstitious nonsense.
creationcenterTV 2 months ago
Eternal life is God's gift to us. Our life here is our gift to God. He made us for his pleasure. He loves all of us and desires a relationship with us. We have free will to refuse his gift and deny his existence if we so wish it. He has given us all the proof we need to believe in him. It is our own selfish and sinful nature that chooses to defy and "crucify" him. Despite all of our imperfections and sins, he will still forgive us. All we need do is repent and believe on his son.
jimkirktrek 2 months ago
@jimkirktrek proof?
messakg123 2 months ago
he says the *universe* is indifferent. People can still care about things..
messakg123 2 months ago
woah man, this is an Atheists view NOT an Agnostics. Get your facts right before you slander people.
magnetica2288 2 months ago
Dawkins explains values like kindness in evolutionary terms. The point is that values are an emergent phenomena of the fundamental natural laws.
audience2 2 months ago
All have sinned and greatly offended the holy God of the bible. The just punishment is death then hell. That's not Gods will. He suffered and died on the cross paying for the law you broke in His life's blood so He could legally dismiss your case. You must repent turn from your sin and trust alone in Jesus Christ for your salvation.
mamainmancj 2 months ago
@mamainmancj if it's not god's will for us to go to hell, why does he send us there? Is he not omnipotent?
messakg123 2 months ago
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austincwhitaker 2 months ago
@messakg123 God does not send anyone to Hell. People choose Hell through their unrepentant sin. It is not his will for anyone to go to Hell, but he loves us so he has given us free will. Love is free will. If you force someone to love you, then it is not truly love.
austincwhitaker 2 months ago
@austincwhitaker well, given the fact that god made the rules and the criteria by which souls are judged, created hell and is the ultimate judge of who goes where after we die I would say he's pretty much responsible for it. But ignoring that for a second, what youre saying is that a person going to hell is against the will of god, but i can still do it? So i ask again, is your god really omnipotent??
messakg123 2 months ago
@messakg123 That is like blaming a judge for sending you to jail for a crime that you committed. You are guilty of the crime, so a truly righteous judge would give you what you deserve. It is not God's will that we live in sin, yet he gives us the choice to freely choose to accept him. It is a philosophical rule that true love is free will, there is no argument about that. As for omnipotence, that is a term created by man used to define God.
austincwhitaker 2 months ago
@austincwhitaker im not talking about living in sin, im talking about literally being sent to hell. God sends us to hell just like the judge sends the criminal to prison. Im not *blaming* god for my sin, im saying he's the one who sends people to hell.. And yes, i know omnipotence is term..? I'm asking if it's truely accurate in describing god given the argument you're making.
messakg123 2 months ago
@messakg123 Although God may punish these people, they are in fact held responsible for their actions, and deserve Hell. This is justice. As for God's omnipotence in this argument, this is not a matter of can or can't, but a matter of will or won't. God is a righteous judge, and will carry out his judgement fairly on the just and the unjust.
austincwhitaker 2 months ago
@austincwhitaker Yes ppl are responsible for their actions, but im saying is the actual HELL part of it is god's doing. He runs the show. he made hell and if he wanted to get rid of it he could. If he thinks someone should go to hell, he'll send them there. It was HIS idea to punish people that way. Btw, do you actually think it's just that whether im a baby rapist or a non-believer, we get the same punishment? Or that i get eternal torture for demanding evidence for the things i believe?
messakg123 2 months ago
@messakg123 If a loving father sees his child do something wrong, it is his job to correct the child. A true loving father will correct his child. Hell's flames were created by God's love. As for this extreme punishment being rational, or equal, all people have sinned at one point or another and therefore equally deserve punishment for their actions. It is not wrong to demand evidence of God, in fact I have questioned my beliefs many times, only to have them strengthened, and reassured.
austincwhitaker 1 month ago
@austincwhitaker right but to have a just system, you need t have graduated punishment- lesser crime => lesser punishment. Having it any other way is impractical. Imagine if that was our legal system. Someone rapes someone, they may as well kill them since this lowers their chance of getting caught and the punishment stays the same. It's a flawed system. What have you seen to reaffirm your faith, if I may be so curious?
messakg123 1 month ago
@messakg123 I agree with you that it makes logical sense in our society, but according to God, if you have broken one commandment, then you have broken all of them. As for the Hell having separate levels of punishment, there are a few verses that have led some to believe this could be possible. However, the Bible clearly states that the unsaved will not inherit The Kingdom of God. Everything in our lives has a creator, and to me it does not make logical sense that we created ourselves over time.
austincwhitaker 1 month ago
@austincwhitaker Which verses show the possibility for graduated punishment in hell? And can you justify your assertion that everything has a creator? No one says anything creates itself. I didnt create myself. I came from my parents who came from their parents etc. etc. all the way back to the origins of life and ultimately to the origin of the universe which are, at this stage, unknown. But by the definition of causality, a thing cannot create itself and no-one holds this position
messakg123 1 month ago
@messakg123 Haven't you read Dante's Inferno? jk haha. How about? Mat 10:15, Luk 10:13-14, Mat 23:14, Jon 19:11. If I show you a building, and ask you to prove to me that there is a builder, there is no way you will be able to prove to me there is a builder. But any reasonable mind can safely assume that someone had to have built this building, and to assume otherwise is just absurd. You said yourself that nothing can create itself, so then where did the universe come from if not created?
austincwhitaker 1 month ago
@austincwhitaker Yeah, i've read the whole bible. But in order for me to take those verses seriously i would have to accept the bible as true but if i did that you wouldnt even need to send me bible verses to convince me because id already believe it! :p We only know buildings have builders experientially. There are things that look designed that aren't (at least not by man) so it cant be due to any design features. We dont know how universes come into existence if at all so cant make judgement
messakg123 1 month ago
@messakg123 Congratulations. You asked me for the verses so I gave them to you, and whether or not you choose to believe them is your choice. Well since there is no proof of abiogenesis, or speciation, and since the 2nd Law of thermo-dynamics shows how things decay over time, I am suggesting that an intelligent designer had something to do with this. Not to mention causality. The universe had to have a cause, so what was it?
austincwhitaker 1 month ago
@austincwhitaker Apologies, I was having a conversation with someone else asking what made them believe in God and got the two of you mixed up so when you started quoting Bible verses I was naturally inclined to point out the circularity of appealing to the bible to validate christianity. Sorry. And as for the rest of your comment, abiogenesis have both been observed under lab conditions, 2nd law of thermodynamics relates to energy not biological complexity, and argument from ignorance fallacy
messakg123 1 month ago
@messakg123 (EDIT TO PREVIOUS COMMENT- 2/2)
I meant to say "abiogenesis and speciation have both been observed under lab conditions"
messakg123 1 month ago
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@austincwhitaker (EDIT TO PREVIOUS COMMENT- 2/2)
I meant to say "abiogenesis and speciation have both been observed under lab conditions"
messakg123 1 month ago
Dawkins believes that the universe doesn't care about us, so we need to care about ourselves and take responsibility. Nowhere is it suggested that we should be as pitiless as the universe obviously is. If there is a loving creator, then his hands-off nature is quite paradoxical. It's depraved indifference.
It's sad that you think you need God to cajole you into being a good person. I don't need the threat of hell or the promise of heaven to make me a decent person.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith I would have to agree that we don't need the threat of hell or promise of heaven to make someone a "decent" person. Here's the thing, you are judging yourself by your standard rather than God's. So what is decent to us is not to him. To us, our "decentness" is to him, or more straightfoward "righteousness" or right standing, is nothing but filthy rags. And what precisely is paradoxical about the Creator's nature? Please reply back. Would love to chat.
XLR8Street 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@XLR8Street Hi, XL8Stree. What is paradoxical is that the Bible shows God at one moment as requiring the Israelites to commit atrocities. Duet 2, especially vs 34 has them killing every man, woman and child. He caused the flood which killed 99.999% of the population, etc. Then he's supposedly good for sending Jesus to die. He invented hell, and will burn us eternally for nothing more than not believing what can't be tested or proven. Then it tells us that he's loving and good.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith Well what do you believe good is? Let me word it differently. Define good.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@XLR8Street Every time I answer anyone's questions in any forum their response is to ignore my response and move on to another question. Can I kindly request that you give me some feedback on my last response before changing the subject. I'm not trying to evade, but it gets so "all-over-the place" otherwise.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith I am actually not ignoring your response but trying to get on a same level as you so I can understand where you are coming from. There is a reason I asked that question, not to rabbit trail you but to follow you along the same path. I just want to know what you define as good in your previous response.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@XLR8Street I suppose I would say it's the earnest attempt to bring about the most happiness among mankind and minimize suffering.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith Okay, now I understand where you are coming from. I really thank you for that. I believe the dictionary definition of good which is to be morally excellent and righteous. And like the Bible says, only God is good, then therefore by logic, He must be morally excellent and righteous, correct? Especially if He created the moral law and everything good. Again this is following simple logic, nothing straying from the path that we are going down together.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@XLR8Street As a software engineer, I have no problem following your logic. But you actually have strayed from the path on your very first step, which was to make a whopper of an assumption, that the Bible is completely true and accurate.
I know with certainty that it is not 100% accurate, because of the numerous errors and contradictions within it. And because there are countless versions of the Bible, one is left asking which Bible? Catholic? KJV? Adventist? Mormon? Witness?
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith I didn't know you were a software engineer, but awesome! I do believe that the Bible is 100% accurate because it is 100% supernatural and inspired by God. As far as which version, I go with the version that has countless antiquated manuscripts (Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.) to back it up and that meets the tests of canonicity and the latter half of the above statement. If you have a bible at home, read Isaiah 53 and tell me to whom it refers to if you would.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@XLR8Street I understand that you're using to Socratic Method to ask as many questions as you can, while answering as few as possible. There's nothing wrong with that. But if I were to use the same method, our discussion would be nothing but a bunch of questions and no answers. Which might be more productive since I believe it's good to question everything.
You did answer my question about which Bible. Thanks. But I don't have any good reason to believe it and many reasons not to.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@XLR8Street Now, the original topic was basically can we be good without belief in the Christian God? I proposed that it's illogical to believe we get our morality from him, when your sacred texts prove that he is not moral, and he has required his follower to be immoral on a number of occasions.
You keep trying to funnel me down some other path. Haven't your heard that trying to organize Atheists is like trying to herd cats? As a freethinker I guess I'm resistant to being herded.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith Didn't know it was a method. I am just curious. As far as the original question goes, I believe we can be "good" by the our definition of "good" without God. Doesn't mean its a right viewpoint. If it is illogical to believe we get morality from Him, then where did it come from? Chemicals, time, chance, and matter, cannot create morals. Why? Morals are immaterial. They are coded deep down inside us that says this is right and wrong.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@XLR8Street I don't have all of the answers. Science doesn't have all the answers. But not having all the answers doesn't suggest God. I think there's some pretty compelling evidence that we evolved in a way that led to us realizing that it's not best to destroy ourselves. Obviously it's not perfect, because we continue to self destruct so some degree. Now, if God made us, it doesn't change the fact that some of us are decent, some of us are psycho, some of us are self destructive.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith And neither do I my friend. I come from a science/math background and know it doesn't have all the answers. I have to take things on faith. Even as a Christian, I don't have all the answers because I am human, I am not God. I don't know why God does some things the way He does in reference to the scripture you brought out, but I know deep down He exists because of faith and experience. He has given us a moral standard to follow, which we can't by a long shot.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@XLR8Street I'm glad that you admit that you don't have all of the answers. I respect your right to have faith. Unfortunately it seems to me that with many theists today that respect is not reciprocal. We all have a right to believe or not believe.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith I respect your honesty and your opinion. Indeed we all have a right to choose what to believe or not. But when you believe something that is more than life itself, wouldn't you want to share? I plead with you, as a fellow human, to look again at the Bible, God, Jesus, and your position with Him right now. You can take it or leave it. Read Romans if you have your Bible. And if you want to continue chatting with me, I can give you my email on different subjects.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith It's because of sin. A going against God and the image we are created in (Imago Dei). And if God is good, then if we derivate off the standard, we are evil and not good, which entails that justice must be done to those who go against it. The Bible says, "my actions are not your actions, and my thoughts not your thougts". Doesn't that in some way resonate? I thank you for your honesty in say you don't know everything.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@XLR8Street "my actions are not your actions, and my thoughts not your thougts" I know it resonates for some. But to me God's actions are men's actions and vic versa. When in the violent desert, the Israelites were violent and God was violent. When under Roman rule they were more subservient and so was God/Jesus. We can see in the Bible an evolution of God as times & environment changed. Christians claim that God never changes, but he clearly does.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith I just recorded a podcast talking about how Christians claim that we should strive to be more like God, but there are places in the Bible that contradict this.
Gen 3:22+ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith Based on the Eden story it seems that God damned the world because people became to much like him. He took steps to keep them from being more like him.
Notice that they were doomed for gaining too much knowledge. We're to believe that they were damned for disobedience? What is disobedience or sin to the mind of someone with no knowledge of good or evil?
Regardless, I can't take a story about talking snakes and men made of clay and breath too seriously.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith Let me pose this to you, those who follow/trust God mimic God's character because of an indwelling Spirit. If God wants justice to be done, He leads people according to His word to institute justice (His hands and feet). If God became a servant in Christ, would He also not expect the same (which He does talk about in the Gospels). God has always shown love, mercy, grace, justice and retribution towards His creation and His people.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@XLR8Street You're welcome to make any proposition that you like. All I can do to weight the likelihood of the proposition is:
1. Examine the claimant.
2. Examine the sources cited.
3. Examine the logic used, if any.
4. Test to see if their proposition actually works.
The problem, and it's one I doubt we'll overcome, is that you put your trust in an a book that I have many reasons not to trust. A book that doesn't pass the above tests. Even if God exists the Bible shows he's evil.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith Then I will propose this...Taste and see that the Lord is good. Repent and trust in Jesus my friend. Reexamine the evidence, and even if you don't believe in God, remember that all that has been said here will be played on Judgment Day. Which side you are on determines your outcome. I am not willing you should die in sin and go to a place of eternal punishment...but that like God in love, you would repent and be given life anew in Christ Jesus. Repent/Trust.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@XLR8Street I have to say that was the nicest way anyone's ever told me that I'm going straight to hell :) I got a bit of a chuckle although I know you're dead serious. Well, at least I'll see Jesus when I'm there. Rev 14:10 says he'll be there watching, "...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" And most Christians think the devil presides over hell. Nope, It's peaceful loving Jesus. Rather sadistic.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith Since you're obviously not going to address any of the aforementioned concerns that I've raised and have used the time to preach instead... Since we're on the topic of hell, you know how the Bible says that God's not willing that any should perish and that Jesus was coming back soon? Isn't it odd, that 2000 years later, around 77% of the population is non-Christian (damned). If Christ had returned "soon" how many fewer damned would there have been be?
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith God is willing that none should perish, thats why Christ died for me and you. He doesn't want to see His creation be damned but because of His goodness, He must carry out justice or He would not be the righteous judge of us all. As far as when Jesus is coming back, as the book of Matthew states, no one knows the hour in which the Son of Man comes, not the angels, nor the Son but the Father only. And how do you know that that 77% is correct?
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith Yet you don't have to. That's what I am saying and pleading with you. Jesus is not just a peaceful and loving but He is also just and must see the punishment carried out. Matthew 7 and Revelations show some of how justice will be carried out by Christ. And yes God presides over Hell and the devil because God is greater than them. Jesus has the keys to life and death (the second death), since we all have one day in which we will die.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith I have one more question to ask...did you come from a "christian" background were someone said, say this little prayer and all will be well, you will be saved, and once one trial hit, you thought God was evil or unjust to let it happen? Please answer honestly.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
@XLR8Street Hehe, far from it. Raised SDA, 8 years of church school. Read the Bible at 16. Then read the NT a second time because it didn't matchwhat I'd been taught. Left the SDA church at 17, was persecuted to some extent, but actually increased in my faith. Remained basically Wesleyan for the past 20 years. But after the SDA church I refused to allow any denomination to interpret the Bible for me. My leaving Christianity had to do with rational thought, not due to any life event.
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@XLR8Street I've read Isaiah 53 many times. I read the Bible cover-to-cover at 16 and the New Testament more than once. Your attempt to prove Jesus through the use of your own sacred texts holds no more weight than a Muslim using the Quran to prove whatever they want to. Do you need to prove to every Muslim out there that you don't need to believe in the Quran or the Hadith?
I've already pointed out that there are serious problems with the Bible. Why would I give credence to it?
FactsBeforeFaith 2 months ago
@FactsBeforeFaith I was not trying to prove Jesus, I was trying to prove supernatural origin.
XLR8Street 2 months ago
yeah you're absolutely right. It makes no sense to say things like that and then live a life which contradicts that belief. If he believes that, the only reason or motivation he should have for doing what he is doing, is that he doesn't give a stuff about anyone else and wants to grab whatever he can for himself in a loveless existence to keep his head above water while standing on the corpses of those beneath him. Wise up Dawkins and get off your soap box, you have nothing to offer
BenPeckover 3 months ago
Dawkin's sort of rationality is totally irrational. He needs to evolve.
BT3701 3 months ago
How could he say that there is evil without a standard of good to compare it to?
RepresentingTruth 3 months ago
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Who's R Dawkins anyway? Some kinda know-it-all professor? And just because he has Ph.D he must be right? Whoever he is, he is a huge HYPOCRITE, because he doesn't live according to his "beliefs".
I'm convinced that the worst punishment God can do to a person is to let him believe his own favorite lies. Those people will be a subject to the funniest ever divine joke when they die.
SerJahPhoto 3 months ago
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SerJahPhoto 3 months ago
Exactly,except that logic breaksdown with the fact he just said words that are used to describe things,in other words meanings to things,actions,Intentionality.
Also good work on that logic fail, with it being wrong to teach Christianity while at the same time saying nothing is wrong...
That yer ma cleaning?
iwanttocrashmybike 3 months ago
I find the Biblical explication of the nature of things reasonable and inspired. Those who have been given to be inspired and informed by a transcendent and immanent God have done well to allow the best humanly possible to emerge from the product of this relationship; Holy Scripture is definitely inspired by God. Great humility has been the result of this relationship, and is also the spirit required to understand the messages and the meanings of the texts. Any other attitude is valueless.
finishstrongdoc 3 months ago
Atheism is the ultimate delusion.
memast5 3 months ago