I don't think you need to spend a lot of time convincing people to do nothing. Following the 1964 murder of Kitty Genovese a term came into common use to explain this well known phenomenon, "diffusion of responsibility". People naturally do nothing, especially if they think others should do something. If you strap on a gun and go out you may be the only one who can do something, there is no diffusion of responsibility, you either choose to act or do not.
I think people who stand in judgment of the bbq owner is an asshole. They weren't there, perhaps there were good and just reasons for him not engaging the gunman. Number 1 being, the gunman had an AK-47 the bbq only had a pistol. Thats a serious disadvantage in both range and firepower.
Its okay to engage, but know your limitations. If I were in the bbq guy's position, I would have done the same exact thing.
Agreed. There was no way to advance under any sort of cover. Advancing in the open against a fully automatic (it was not a semi-automatic as it had been illegally modified) AK47 is suicide. Call me a coward, but I'm in no hurry to die and I know what it feels like to be shot!
Awesome vid. I agree with you except one slight use of verbage. A pistol is a "known" killing weapon as much as a rifle. Even a rifle can have limitations to it's take down power. Like the .223 commonly used in the military. It is more about shot placement. I don't need to tell u this though. Just a statement. I do agree that at 100 yards with a pistol your shot placement is lucky at best. I know I came into posting this late but I am new to your channel but I really enjoy watching and listening
I believe that if you have the ability to protect innocent life, then you have the duty also. However, even though the BBQ owner was armed, did he, with only a handgun, reasonably have the ABILITY to engage a rifleman at 100 yds? In my estimation of what's reasonable, no he did not. Maybe if he were closer, had a clear shot at an effective range and good coverage, or a rifle of his own to use...then maybe we could say he had a duty to act.
This video is 19:11 long, it has (as I watch) 1910 views (plus mine). Also 9 dislikes and 147 likes (9mm 147grain). Damn, calibers and model numbers are so fixed in my head I see them everywhere.
Solution: conceal carry a BFR in .45-70 govt. Or a rifle. Or call Hickok45. Good luck.
Who knows who is "correct" in this situation. The guy is justified in staying and protecting his family/people in the BBQ. I myself wouldn't have thought it out at all and rushed in towards the shooter to engage (at least that's what I would like to think...).Realistically I likely would have failed, perhaps causing more harm. Also I don't have a wife and children to consider, as such I cannot judge this man.
@PistolWhipped2008 Keep in mind that I do not advocate utter inaction. In fact if the opportunity presents itself, I advocate shooting the threat to the ground. My whole goal is to get people thinking.
The biggest, and most useful weapon is the brain so anything that provokes people to use their brains is good value, in my opinion.
If one were to close to engage, vertical displacement (i.e crouching if needed to change the angle) would send those rounds careening into the roof in the event of a miss. Unless there are 2-stroy IHOPs I've never seen.
@PistolWhipped2008 In order to create that high of an angle of attack, you would have to get right on top of the threat, which I do not see as entirely feasible.
I would have to see the layout of the parking lot and cars at the time to determine whether or not it would be feasible. Again, situation dictates action.
@PistolWhipped2008 Check out google maps and use the street view. You can see the layout and see the distances involved (right around 90-100 yards). You can see the backdrop of both sides and the street, and adajacent parking lots pretty well.
Long story short, the man took on 40 train robbers who attempted to rape a young woman. He did so with "only" a knife. By your reasoning, this should have been impossible, or unwise to attempt. But through skill and moral fortitude, he did so.
The "don't be a Hero" message is flawed. While one may not be able to save everyone, finding 20 minutes of excuses not to try is not wisdom or prudence, but cowardice.
@PistolWhipped2008 Using one singular situation and applying is to everything else is flawed. The circumstances between the two situations are completely different, so trying to apply one to the other is a waste of time.
I never advocated inaction or cowardice. Only those afraid of reality will resist studying the entire situation and looking at ALL possible outcomes and consequences.
I do recognize that things can go south an any situation.
An active shooter is already a "worst case" however.
You cannot control everything in every situation, and every minute you spend telling yourself what can't do something is one more minute bodies will be piling up.
In the words of Patton "A good plan implemented today is better than the perfect plan implemented tomorrow." To put it more simply "speed is key." The more you fuck around, the worse it gets.
@PistolWhipped2008 Correct, but we are not in that situation at the moment. We are studying the situation because we have the luxury at the moment to do so. If we do not look at ALL facets right now, we are cheating ourselves in the end.
If you aren't going to look at a scenario 100%, you are wasting time, in my opinion. Weighing risk versus benefit has been the way of the warrior since Sun Tzu.
I do not discount the value of after action reviews. However, my mindset remains the same. I will gladly analyze the situation for tactics I can utilize at a later date, but at the end of the day, standing by while a madman shoots up an IHOP is not kosher. I realize strategies that work (namely swiftness of decision and overwhelming violence of action) and prepare myself to be able to deliver them if I am ever put into that situation.
Live your life in your little bubble, not willing to risk your life for others you've never met. Then you expect beat cops to do what you are unwilling to, for a meager $30k a year salary.
I say this not from a "Hero Complex" nor from the testosterone addled place you have hinted at.
If someone is killing innocent people, and you can stop it, it is your moral duty as a human being to do so.
@PistolWhipped2008 What about the people you are protecting? Do you leave them? What about them. Are the lives across the parking more important then the ones in your shop?
Why are some people so afraid to look at the ENTIRE situation and think of all possible outcomes and situations?
However I see no mention of the other side of the coin.
You have the skill, the equipment, and the ability to intervene. You, for whatever reason, don't. Now, when those men, women, and/or Guardsmen are lowered into the cold ground, their mothers, fathers, wives, and children weeping tears the dead will never see, what will you think then?
"I could have done something."
Now, the other option is living with that all your life.
So Closing to engage is not as impossible as you paint it.
As for stopping power, emptying a burst of handgun fire into the COM vitals, or into an attackers head, has a decidedly more lethal and immediate effect than a single round. So "stopping power" can be overcome with proper technique and tactics.
If you are worried about not being able to handle a situation, the solution isn't find a reason not to. It is to train until you are able to meet the challenge properly.
@PistolWhipped2008 I shoot 100 yards quite a bit with a handgun (I have a couple videos posted of it). You CANNOT ensure a critical COM hit right away at 100 yards. It is beyond the design of a typical self CCW handgun to be able to hit COM right away on a moving target at 100 yards every time. You may hit the target, but you cannot ensure you hit in a critical area. It is what it is. Shooting a relaxed 100 yards on a square range is different than shooting a 100 yard moving live target.
@PistolWhipped2008 Alot of people don't take into account the backstop of the BBQ guy is he closed to engage. Any exchange of fire would have put the BBQ store and the bank behind him in peril. Also any shots missed by the BBQ guy would've have either went possibly into the IHOP or down the street.
One of the most important facets of concealed carry is knowing where those rounds will go.
Keep in mind, the whole goal of this video is to get people thinking.
Secondly, you keep mentioning the active shooter was using a rifle. This is true.
You also mention the BBQ owner had a handgun, which are poor fight stoppers. This is also true.
HOWEVER, I would venture to guess you may have played paintball before. If not, there is a technique often called "tree-walking". One keeps a solid barrier (trees, bunkers, or in this case, cars). It's often simple to approach places unseen from a specific direction when one knows their opponents location.
First off let me start by saying I enjoy your channel.
Now, I do not know the level of training and equipment the BBQ shop owner, nor the shooter, had, therefore I cannot make the assessments you are. Neither can you, honestly.
HOWEVER, I have a few issues with this video. If you have beef with Gabe Suarez and WarriorTalk, then by all means, call them on it. Don't be a pussy about it and throw around vague hints about who you don't agree with.
@PistolWhipped2008 It would seem that Gabe Suarez is the one acting like the pussy around here. I actually tried to be a little respectful in this video. All Mr Suarez and a few if his staff instructors have done so far is call me childish names on their forum. That speaks VOLUMES for their professionalism. Sorry, but Mr Suarez and staff should hold themselves to higher standards because they represent their company.
Miller, On the 9/11 flight over Pennsylvania, the passengers decided that action,fighting back,was preferable than the alternative. All I'm saying generally is "getting involved" is almost always better, for the victims and for the others coming to the rescue. Again, I am not talking of the BBQ guy, because I am not going to second guess anyone. Doing something,anything, is a much better message to put out there, than to have people frightened into inaction.
Miller,it may have been unintentional on your part but it appears to me that you are espousing not to get involved. I think that is the wrong message for viewers to come away with.
@briz1911 Nope, I'm not advocating inaction. I am advocating doing what you can in a situation like that. Look at it this way. You have a responsibility to the people around you. If you are the only one packing the firearm, those people are looking to you for protection. Are you just going to leave them?
People can't protect everyone. That is reality. It sucks, but it's true. You do what you can. You look at the situation and try to pick the best route you can.
Miller, I was not just talking of the BBQ guy. I was saying in a general way, that any individual can at least attempt to put a stop to a catastrophic incident such as this one. Look, I really don't see what the big deal is for someone to decide to get involved. Are there risks and repercussions, sure there are. But so there is in everything else we do every single day. I am sorry that you do not see the whole picture.
@briz1911 I am looking at the whole picture, hence this video. One point of view is "attack attack attack". This point of view is defend defend defend.
@bfgguns It turns out he reopened the thread. I'm sure I have alot of warriortalk hate coming my way. It's cool. If they think I am such a joke, they are free to have a laugh at my expense and move on to bigger better things. I'm just some nut with a camera that posts vids on youtube... :)
Miller, I don't buy into your Hero theory. The RIGHT thing to do in this situation would have been to attempt to stop the shooter. And I am not just talking about the BBQ guy. You are sending a bad message and curling up into the fetal position is wrong.All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
@briz1911 You are assuming that by keeping a watch over those around him, he was curling up and being a puss.
Reality sucks, and it's apparent that some people hate to hear about reality. They want to stay in their "I am warrior!!!" world.
People never want to address consequences for some reason. They never want to look at the WHOLE situation. Looking at the entire situation is what makes you better.
U are great miller usaf love the vids...... I prob would of stayed in the bbq establishment and secured the the people for safety reasons instead of enguaging a guy with a rifle knowing I have a handgun. I WOULD NEVER TAKE A HANDGUN TO A RIFLE FIGHT.
Glad ran into this video, you know exactly what the F*K you are talking about. Sorry about that language but it was necessary. Great case study and very informative. To be honest if I where in this same shoots as the BBQ owner, I would have done the same thing. "The basic fact is he had a handgun and the shooter had a rifle" -You do not go into a gun fight with a knife -You do not go into a rifle fight with a hand gun period!
Sorry Miller,I use the bank next to the BBQ.Its not 100 but 50 yds to the IHOP. The glass windows are on the street side facing away from the restaurant. This goes to the near and far ambush theory. Pistol or rifle it does matter but decent skills and who wants it the most, wins. Don't be surprised by ones strength when defending others. Soon as most suicidal shooters meet an aggressor they choose to take their own life quick to the head,there cowards for pain. Check your intel Gunny Z. USMC
Stray bullets man, stray bullets. This ain't the bench. You're running, shooting, most likely a little panicky. Plus dude had a high-powered rifle. His rounds are going straight through those cars like butter. Goddamn common sense is going down the shitter nowadays with this Hollywood B.S. There's too many variables to say whether or not the bbq guy was in the right, but my call would've been the same as his. This shit isn't a game. If you value your life, defend, not attack.
Y DO COWARDS SHOOT INNOCENT PEOPLE? HE SHOULD HAVE ATLEAST WALKED IN THE WHITEHOUSE AND CLEARED OUT THE LIBERALS INSTEAD THE AMMO WOULD GOTO BETTER USE THAT WAY
I live not far from here and that bbq guy was in the right.. first off you have a van pull up and one guy come out and start shooting.. you don't even know wtf is going on and if there is anymore people in the van..
There is a 3rd option and thats get everyone out the back door of the bbq shop first just in case he does turn and start shooting everywhere. He is not shooting at me or my family THEY are why I carry first and formost to protect my kids and wife.
Not a boring video and not wordy, very much needed in the armchair gunslinger asshat community. Nobody can make the call except the guy in the situation. Thanks for your sane and well thought out contribution to the responsible gun owners.
People crack me up. Especially when it is clear they have never been shot at or in a situation like that. The truth is ANYONE is going to be keenly aware of the complexity of that situation while in it and could never possibly know exactly what they would do. In fact, most would likely be paralyzed with fear and by the time they got control of it the situation over. Those tend to be the same guys who say stuff like 9mm lead is nearly incapable of reliably producing mortal wounds. It's all fun a
People are questioning his decision? That is crazy. He looked at the sitiation and decided the best way he could be helpful was to protect the people around him. I do not understand how someone can question that.
Very well thought out. I read Suarez`s response and I think that him and others are over simplifying the situation. Lots of macho bs too. It would be great to take out the bad guy and save the day but we gotta be realistic about not only our capabilites but the bad guys capability as well, too many variables. It all depends on the situation.
You don't question a decision like that. As long as what they did was fairly reasonable you leave their decision alone. Either choice was a reasonable one.
Wow, what a coincidence, I had stumbled onto the Warrior talk forums a few days ago for AK info, but seeing how Suarez is a massive dick, I'm done with that site.
Shame, he could be a much richer man if he was more polite.
Another thing to consider is that there may a second shooter going towards another area in the strip mall, or even the BBQ joint. By closing to engage you would leave yourself exposed to that second shooter, and leave your family and everyone else in the restaurant unprotected if that second shooter comes.
Miller, I love how you always say you wanna stay away from drama and then you kick a hornet's nest. Let people do what they want. What does it matter to me if stupid people do stupid shit? None!!! That's on them. Its not my or your obligation to teach, instruct or correct anyone. Just do you and if an internet hero's go for it or cowards curl up into a ball that's on them... I would have secured my immediate area, called 911 and stayed put. If he closed in on us then I'd respond accordingly.
@eldogg4life I don't start high school drama, but I will call out a foul if I see one. The fact is tons of people learn everything they know from internet research. It is what it is. A new person to the world of self defense won't know the complexity of attempting to engage a person armed with a rifle while only armed with a handgun. They will get a false sense of security, and that may come back to bite them in the worst way.
what happens when one of the hero wannabes decide to be superman and hit a bystander? what if that bystander is you? the tables will turn and you will be very upset if you survive.
@qikies I'd expect something like that to happen because people naturally panic even those with a CCW. Which is why I would lay low, find cover, stay put and scan 360 degrees and if an immediate threat to ME is presented then I'll handle it. I'm not sworn to protect or defend anyone. Why weren't they armed to defend themselves? If they care so little about their lives/safety then why should I risk my life to save theirs... No matter how many vids we do on this ppl will still be under trained.
Even if you subscribe to the "CCW Hero" idea, and even if this CCW individual was highly-trained, well-practiced, expert shooter with extensive military/police/tactical training... the basic fact is he had a handgun and the shooter had a rifle. The over-match in firepower, combined with the shooter entirely having the initiative and unknown motives, is reason enough to escape or retrograde into a strong defensive position.
@silvermediastudio Well said. Trying to take the initiative away from a well motivated rifle shooter with nothing but a pistol is a tricky and extremely risky endeavor, and the risks do not seem to outweigh the benefits.
that is honestly the the first instinct for me is to rush forward and close the gap a little. i dont realy know all the details of this story. there may or may not have been large parked cars that could have provided adequate cover, how long did it take the cinceal carrier to take action. i may have wanted to wait and stay with the others. but then if he does come over, youre hopped. and now you have no chance of walking up on him
@Duckagee Cars provide little-to-no cover from rifle fire, and minimal cover from service-caliber handgun fire. The best you can hope for from a car or truck is partial concealment.
In one of your probabilities you mentioned hitting and killing a bystander. The CCW holder could and probably would be charged with murder in that situation correct?
After the BBQ owner is dead.... Guess which way the shooters attention is focused... Guess where he's going next... Dead BBQ guy (who is now also possibly an ex-killer of innocents from missed shots), dead customers, dead family. He did well. Hindsight is 20/20.
I carry a breakdown single shot NEF in .300 WinMag in my suitcase and have Level IV Ceramic plates duct taped to my back. I would've moved to cover and assembled the NEF to take a precision shot on the gunman.
If for some reason the NEF broke, I would pull one of my 4 concealed GLOCKs and engaged the gunman by laying down suppressive fire with 5 or 6 of the 33rd magazines I keep strapped to my ankle.
Anyone who wouldn't do that is a coward and not a Sheep Dog.
You are absolutely right. Hitting a possibly moving armed target with a rifle at 100 yards with a pistol and people behind it is just a roll with the dice.
People are talking crap when they say "yeah I would have shot him if I were in this situation". People on the "warrior talk forum" are pathetic. Have you read their comments? I still can't stop laughing... =P
From the news report I found Eduardo Sencion, killed a motorcyclist outside and then walked into the IHOP and began shooting, if this is infact the case I believe the BBQ shop owner made the right decision, he could only have risked more lives including his own going in there.
The guy did what he had to do. People are posers they are wanting a firefight but you know what those are the first people to die or coward out in a firefight...
I see ur points in this vid and u touched base on one of my biggest fears and that is having to draw my weapon but me being mistaken as the threat i think about that scenario all the time and i hope i never have to encounter that
I think one of the best bits of advice I've heard on this subject was in a gun training video I watched once, the instructor said something along the lines of "If you pull into a wal-mart parking lot and you hear gun shots and you have a rifle in the trunk, get back in your car and go to K-Mart they have a Blue Light Special going on."
Also I'm normally not one to say this, but I figure most who are saying they could take him out and probably CoD players =/
A conceal carry permit holder has no obligation to go engage a shooter. They can if they want and are more than welcome, but I don't slate someone for choosing to stay put and protect their shop. You can't judge the guy unless you we're in a similar situation because you have no idea what you would do until you're there. I could go all day about how I would go give the guy two to the chest and one to the head but it means shit sitting here typing it on a computer.
Excellent breakdown Miller. I disagreed with you at first...But after going every aspect of the scenario (considering your family is safe next to you) I do agree with your thoughts here.
I am glad you made this video. You brought forward good info and I do stand corrected on few points. Under the active shooter protocol you will be tagged as an additional shooter and will put down "quickly" even by another sheep dog. IF you are lucky and skilled to get a HEAD shot, unless you hit a CNS point, the shooter will stay active for few minutes. I seen many GSW in the head and will not go down as quickly. The Secret ! Stay calm, find cover, give 911 as much information you can.
In this scenario that man's choice did not cost additional lives or his own. So with that said in my opinion he did the right thing. Like you said at 100 yards a pistol of any kind is no match for any center fire rifle, even if it is a bolt action. So he was a hero by deciding to stay put and keeping the people with him safe.
great video miller....listen guys never engage in a gun fight or any type of fight that you are not trained for. this is not the movies. you will find out real quick how fast thing will go wrong be safe and think clearly again great video miller
Your comment below makes me wonder whether your video is really about an IHOP AAR, or just a vehicle to bash Gabe Suarez.
Regarding Suarez's convictions, you know the answer. In the USA it is illegal for a felon to possess a firearm. The fact that Mr. Suarez can lawfully possess firearms makes it crystal clear to all the world that if he has had any legal trouble, it was only at the misdemeanor level.
Have you ever been in a gunfight sir? Or do you only academically discuss 'em
@JBruckner20001 This is about "hero syndrome" and Mr Suarez is only one of those out there that has it. It runs rampant in the gun community, and it's disappointing to see it in CCW instructor circles.
Am I wrong regarding the points I bring forth in this video? Am I wrong in pointing out the possible consequences?
@millerusaf I agree with many of your points. I think you could have better represented your point by sticking to the facts as you see them, and staying away from the personal.
The Internet is full of trash talking keyboard commandos who would run like bitches if they were suddenly facing danger. I laugh at half the 'I woulda' posts I read.
@millerusaf You are only wrong to the extent that you act as an apologist for surrender. A simple cursory study of active-shooter incidents shows that they generally stop all aggression at the first sign of meaningful resistance .. often turning their guns on themselves. It doesn't require superhuman skill or head-shots at 100 yards ... only the willingness to get in the fight. The facts seem to run contrary to your theoretical "possible consequences". Shouldn't reality be our guide?
@ZombieTactics No study will accurately predict the circumstances of the next active shooter encounter. If you do not look at all the possible consequences/outcomes, you are doing yourself a disservice.
You say I advocate surrender, but you missed the whole point of this video. I do not advocate surrender in the least, but what I do advocate is a hard look at reality.
@millerusaf If this is the case, then why would you put forth raw theory based upon nothing but your surmise of "possible outcomes", rather than simply study what - in REALITY - has happened in almost every known case? There's a disconnect there which you aren't accounting for, but rather studiously avoiding. The "what if" game only makes sens if the "what ifs" are something known to happen. We should not damn the man for his inaction, but neither should we defend/suggest it generally
@ZombieTactics We know what inaction produces in every case ... more death and injury. We know what resistance has produced in most cases ... and end to the aggression. Resistance can be as simple as those who (drawing no weapons themselves) disarmed the nut in Arizona, just as he was attempting a reload. What -- "unarmed against a Glock? What could they do?" They RESISTED, and ended the attack. Given these simple facts, why would you argue for the former than the latter as fitting and proper?
@JBruckner20001 So you defend Suarez, who typed up an article which mounted a personal attack against the guy in the BBQ shop (which basically generated this entire discussion). But you don't support Miller, b/c he questioned Suarez, and you think that's a personal attack. Clearly, your logic is flawless. I'm not questioning Suarez's training, or tactics. But the fact remains, he is a liar and a thief, and he plead guilty to such in a court of law, resulting in almost a year of jail time.
bottom line is people can talk but if your not prepared to do violence on someone your gunna do squat. have you ever even punched someone in the face let alone kill some one? no the man did the practical thing period.
You hit it right on the head with this video . I didn't know GS and his forum were talking about this . The BBQ guy did the right thing . Protected his family and stayed alive . You went through all of the scenarios , the only one that would have made the BBQ guy do something is if the gun man turned his attention to where he was and his family. Its called the Badger mentality . Back me in a hole till I can't go any deeper in it then I have no choice but to fight .
Sure, address the hero syndrome...but what about people like myself the coward complex? I would have not only not confronted the guy with the rifle. I would have turned off the open sign, turned off the lights, and made everyone inside pretend to be sleeping.
I love armchair warriors. These are the idiots that are going to be part of the problem, not the solution. I carry a firearm, ALL the time. Because of this, my criteria are:
1. Protect myself and my loved ones.
2. Contain my immediate area.
3. Assess the situation and continue to defend my immediate area.
Not my job to be a hero. Yes, I'm prepared, but so could anyone in the IHOP. It's not my place to play hero, my place is my family and my immediate safety.
I spend thousands of dollars preparing to defend myself. Nothing is stopping others from doing the same. My job is to make sure I'm here for my loved ones. Everyone has the option to make certain choices whether to do the same or not. I chose to prepare.
Lest we forget, every bullet has an attorney attached to it. Both in civil and criminal court. If I'm in jail, I can't protect my family either.
Others need to take responsibility on their own as well.
@jakkd07 You don't think others need to take their own safety seriously? As an activist, I hear too much of the "gun nut" complex. Here you have a guy that did the exact thing he was supposed to do. Then you get Zamudio in Arizona with the Giffords shooting and how people blasted him for what he did (though he didn't fire a shot). Can't have it both ways.
I agree, not everyone is "gun ready", but too many have the "sheep" mentality that as long as they mind their own business, their OK.
@CTKix Never said I wanted it both ways. I simply don't agree made up nicknames like sheep and sheep dogs etc. Those terms have basically become catch phrases a person uses as part of his business to make money. And the title(s) such as sheep dog only serve to make the bearer feel special, as if he/she is part of some special club. But hey, to each their own.
It's our duty to stand up and protect our fellow man. Don't sit around applauding this guy for being "smart". He could have possibly saved lives, but instead he hid in fear, hoping the bad man would go away. I think you are a good man miller, but to be a great man you must always put others before yourself. Nutnfancy's still the best. Be sheepdogs.
@KiernanMurphy You are talking to a military man, so I know all about "duty". Don't preach to me about putting others before myself, because I know all about that.
Do this for me. Sit down for a minute and really think about this type of scenario and put yourself in his shoes. Forget about what nutnfancy says, or what I say. Look at the facts of the situation and weigh the outcomes. You have a pistol. You have a 100 yard shot. He has a rifle. Your backstop is people. Your target is moving.
@KiernanMurphy It does no good being a "sheepdog" if you just rush into a situation and create more casualties. What about the people in the BBQ that he was protecting (his family included). I will also add that rounds were impacting around the BBQ also. Do you leave your family and the people in your establishment unprotected? What if you die? Your family and establishment is now unprotected.
@KiernanMurphy Playing armchair quarterback does NOTHING at all. It's all too easy to puff up the chest and say "he was a coward", but when you look at the realities of the matter, your eyes open up a little.
Even a fully outfiitted military fireteam wouldn't rush towards one man with a rifle without having a plan set up and weighing the risks/versus rewards.
Like I said, take an honest look at the situation. Use you OWN head. Forget everyone else.
@millerusaf It's all to easy to sit there and say he did the right thing, because you know you wouldn't have had what it takes to step up and do all you can to stop evil. You justify him because you need to justify yourself. I don't know if you believe in God, but I know that if I were in the BBQ guy's place and went out to engage, if God willed for me to stop the gunman, then I would prevail, no matter how slim the chances seem. David and Goliath. Psalms 23. Phillipians 4:13.
@KiernanMurphy Do you hang out on Warriortalk alot? You sound a lot like some of Gabe Suarez's fanboys.
I am a Christian, and I know about sacrifice. You are trying to turn the conversation around to make it out like I am a coward of some sort, but the fact is you seem real hesitant to look at this situation with an impartial mind and with common sense thrown in. You think this BBQ guy was a coward. What makes you think we wasn't protecting those in his store?
@millerusaf Are you a good practicing christian? Do you go to church more than just Christmas and Easter? Do you pray multiple times a day? Do you study the scriptures daily? Have you ever really prayed with a sincere heart to know that God is real and that Jesus is the Christ and that you are going to the right church? Many people call themselves Christian, but few truly are. Do you believe the story of David and Goliath? Can't God make the underdog win against all odds?
The plain cold hard reality is sometime the bad guy wins. If you disagree with that fact, look at the casualties of the current wars, and look at the roster of police officer that were killed in the line of duty.
You said "right church". Please enlighten me to which church is the "right church".
@millerusaf I can't tell you which is the right church. You must find that out for yourself. Don't just go to a church because your parents did, or your friends do (the main reason most people I see go to different churches), they might be wrong.
We've lost about 6000 and killed over 50000. We are winning. We already actually won when we toppled the Taliban Government, and when we got rid of Saddam's government and Iraq had it's elections. Those were the goals. What we are still doing isn't a war. I don't know why people consider it a war. We are just acting as a security force and training the soldiers and police of Iraq and Afghanistan. Terrorist will always remain. All we can do is hit them when they show their heads like whack-a-mole
@KiernanMurphy Before you tell me "no it means this" let me say the meaning of the story has changed over time.
Originally it was about David's brains and creative ability to be a game changing leader who could take the Jewish people forward and enable them to capture a lot of land from powerful neighbours. Once people became less familiar with the power of a sling and religious dogma kicked in it became about "Goliath was big and David was small" which wasn't exactly the original point.
@millerusaf heh apart from all the "right church" garbage you go on with, David and Goliath can be put in some perspective by this discussion...... David had a rifle. Goliath had a pistol. David dropped him at range with a very accurate and effective weapon imparting *massive* blunt force.
Nothing to do with odds being improved by a super-natural being, David just had a kickass weapon and was well practiced. To say David was the underdog in this fight is a misconception.
This is a video that every CCW class should watch. Anyone that is calling the BBQ guy a coward is a fool. The shooter had all the cards and would not worry about the people behind you in the BBQ--he would be dumping mags at you and your family behind you. I bet the people in the BBQ who were hiding behind him don't think he is a coward and are glad he stayed.
Well said man, only training school that goes beyond "shooting" is front sight. they have a class where they de-program you from that "i'm a hero" mentality. i agree, even in a shoot out... just be vigilant, take video if you can and don't make the situation worst.
@jmmurdy It's good that you got worked up. That is what this video is for. I want people to think about things and not just blindly follow other's viewpoints without honestly running over the thoughts/scenarios in their heads.
Think of the scores of people mourning over the loss of loved ones that could have possibly been saved. It doesn't matter that your own life is in danger, all that should matter is getting others lives out of danger. Instead of cowering and hoping he doesn't come over to where you are, man up, put your balls to the walls, close to a good range, and put a bullet in this psycho's head. Evil triumphs when good does nothing. Police take like 10 minutes to arrive to crimes scenes on average.
@KiernanMurphy You are not in reality with this statement. Look at some of the scenarios I put forth in this video and you can see possible outcomes.
Know this..... you are NOT an uber SWAT team hero, you are NOT some tier 1 delta operator, you are NOT some superhero. You ARE a CCW permit holder. Act accordingly and know YOUR ROLE. Sometimes the best thing to do is NOT fire and help get people away from the situation (taking cover or evac). Drawing and firing is your LAST option.
well maybe one of those people in the ihop should have been carring. Then they would not have been dead.
I am all with miller on this one. I carry but sorry i am not gonna be concerned and risk my life for other random people. I care and worry about my family. I would have stayed in doors and protect my family incase the guy comes over to the bbq place.
@dp665 I agree with you that someone in IHOP should be carrying. Everyone should be carrying. ( everyone that can in your family should too) Even though they are random people to you they aren't random to some one else. They are fathers, mothers, daughters, brothers, sons, sisters, wives, husbands, friends, etc. How about this, he gets everyone in his BBQ to go out the back door or go into the secret back room or whatever, then moves to engage.
@KiernanMurphy Here's another complication. Police arrive and see you outdoors with a firearm. Acting under active shooter protocol, they WILL most likely engage you. Also take into consideration that the pistol is not a reliable manstopper. Now add the complication of the 100 yard distance. 100 yards, and you have a pistol caliber going against a 7.62x39mm that will reach out to 650 yards easily. Unstable pistol versus stable rifle.
everyone does carry in my family (from me the youngest at 24 to my grandma the oldest at 86)
but you are right to someone they are mothers, sons, daughters, fathers, ect... but to me. there random people. and i am not going to put my life on the line for some random person. and i do not expect some random person to put there life on the line for me. the only person i have a duty to protect is myself and my loved ones. i would have done the samething as the guy in the bbq store.
I don't care how bad the odds are. If you're to greedy to take the chance to save even just one life, then you deserve rot in Hell. Imagine if your family was at that IHOP. Wouldn't you want someone to at least try and stop the attacker. All you people saying it was smart because he could face big legal problems, YOU MAKE ME SICK. It's better to be go to prison and just your life messed up, then it is for multiple people to die, or have life altering injuries.
@KiernanMurphy In this situation, the BBQ guy's family was in his BBQ, not in the IHOP. Also, let's mention the fact that the shooter also went into the IHOP, which compounded the situation.
It's sad that I make you sick for portraying common sense on this issue. It is what it is, and with a concealed carry permit YOU have an obligation to weight ALL avenues. By rushing into a situation thinking you will be the hero of the day, you stand a high risk of making yourself a casualty. (cont)
@KiernanMurphy ...it's the same concept as when a rescue team first surveys the situation before just running into a burning building. They want to make sure they don't become casualties themselves, and add to the problem.
Reality is just that...it's reality. Things are more complicated than just engaging the threat.
How would you feel if one of your rounds missed your long range target and killed an innocent person?
the fact of the matter is nobody knows what they would do unless your there while its happening id say id get to my truck and grab my scoped rife and throw one between the eyes but who knows if there would have been a clear shot for that or mabe i couldnt get to my truck without him spoting me you just dont know untill your there and have to make the choice yourself
I strongly disagree with the BBQ guy's choice. I'm not saying he's a bad person, but maybe he's just not the right kind of person. I believe when you get a concealed carry permit, you are taking an oath to be a sheepdog that will protect the innocent and defenseless. CCWP holders are supposed to be guardian angels. I hope all you guys out there that carry conceal are more willing to help your fellow man. It's your job to put others lives before your own.(continued)
@KiernanMurphy Do you shoot when the back stop consists of innocent people? Compound that by the fact that you are facing deadly, very capable semi automatic rifle with only a pistol, and the target is out of practical pistol range. Also, compound that with the fact that the target is moving and very aware of his surroundings.
Will running into the fight make things better or worse? It's always a tough call, and there are always consequences to your actions.
I don't think you need to spend a lot of time convincing people to do nothing. Following the 1964 murder of Kitty Genovese a term came into common use to explain this well known phenomenon, "diffusion of responsibility". People naturally do nothing, especially if they think others should do something. If you strap on a gun and go out you may be the only one who can do something, there is no diffusion of responsibility, you either choose to act or do not.
98379SA 2 weeks ago
When a warrior learns to stop the internal dialogue, everything becomes possible; the most far-fetched schemes become attainable. Carlos Castaneda
saari09 1 month ago
Great video
PimpMethod 1 month ago
I think people who stand in judgment of the bbq owner is an asshole. They weren't there, perhaps there were good and just reasons for him not engaging the gunman. Number 1 being, the gunman had an AK-47 the bbq only had a pistol. Thats a serious disadvantage in both range and firepower.
Its okay to engage, but know your limitations. If I were in the bbq guy's position, I would have done the same exact thing.
Alexn1067 2 months ago
Great video! Alot of good points, keep on making them!!
Oneill44 2 months ago
Agreed. There was no way to advance under any sort of cover. Advancing in the open against a fully automatic (it was not a semi-automatic as it had been illegally modified) AK47 is suicide. Call me a coward, but I'm in no hurry to die and I know what it feels like to be shot!
61loneviking 2 months ago
Awesome vid. I agree with you except one slight use of verbage. A pistol is a "known" killing weapon as much as a rifle. Even a rifle can have limitations to it's take down power. Like the .223 commonly used in the military. It is more about shot placement. I don't need to tell u this though. Just a statement. I do agree that at 100 yards with a pistol your shot placement is lucky at best. I know I came into posting this late but I am new to your channel but I really enjoy watching and listening
shtf79 3 months ago
@shtf79 dude a pistol round is far more weaker then a rifle round, and this fact is compounded as the range increases.
Alexn1067 2 months ago
I believe that if you have the ability to protect innocent life, then you have the duty also. However, even though the BBQ owner was armed, did he, with only a handgun, reasonably have the ABILITY to engage a rifleman at 100 yds? In my estimation of what's reasonable, no he did not. Maybe if he were closer, had a clear shot at an effective range and good coverage, or a rifle of his own to use...then maybe we could say he had a duty to act.
hulsey1976 3 months ago
This video is 19:11 long, it has (as I watch) 1910 views (plus mine). Also 9 dislikes and 147 likes (9mm 147grain). Damn, calibers and model numbers are so fixed in my head I see them everywhere.
LifeisGood762 4 months ago
Solution: conceal carry a BFR in .45-70 govt. Or a rifle. Or call Hickok45. Good luck.
Who knows who is "correct" in this situation. The guy is justified in staying and protecting his family/people in the BBQ. I myself wouldn't have thought it out at all and rushed in towards the shooter to engage (at least that's what I would like to think...).Realistically I likely would have failed, perhaps causing more harm. Also I don't have a wife and children to consider, as such I cannot judge this man.
LifeisGood762 4 months ago
Finally, before you get the wrong idea, I am actually a fan of your channel. I do however, have great reservations about this particular video.
I am glad you too the time to discuss your viewpoints with me. Stay safe and shoot straight.
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
@PistolWhipped2008 Keep in mind that I do not advocate utter inaction. In fact if the opportunity presents itself, I advocate shooting the threat to the ground. My whole goal is to get people thinking.
The biggest, and most useful weapon is the brain so anything that provokes people to use their brains is good value, in my opinion.
millerusaf 4 months ago
Backstop is glass windows in an IHOP.
If one were to close to engage, vertical displacement (i.e crouching if needed to change the angle) would send those rounds careening into the roof in the event of a miss. Unless there are 2-stroy IHOPs I've never seen.
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
@PistolWhipped2008 In order to create that high of an angle of attack, you would have to get right on top of the threat, which I do not see as entirely feasible.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@millerusaf
I would have to see the layout of the parking lot and cars at the time to determine whether or not it would be feasible. Again, situation dictates action.
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
@PistolWhipped2008 Check out google maps and use the street view. You can see the layout and see the distances involved (right around 90-100 yards). You can see the backdrop of both sides and the street, and adajacent parking lots pretty well.
millerusaf 4 months ago
Look up Bishnu Shrestha.
Long story short, the man took on 40 train robbers who attempted to rape a young woman. He did so with "only" a knife. By your reasoning, this should have been impossible, or unwise to attempt. But through skill and moral fortitude, he did so.
The "don't be a Hero" message is flawed. While one may not be able to save everyone, finding 20 minutes of excuses not to try is not wisdom or prudence, but cowardice.
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
@PistolWhipped2008 Using one singular situation and applying is to everything else is flawed. The circumstances between the two situations are completely different, so trying to apply one to the other is a waste of time.
I never advocated inaction or cowardice. Only those afraid of reality will resist studying the entire situation and looking at ALL possible outcomes and consequences.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@millerusaf
I do recognize that things can go south an any situation.
An active shooter is already a "worst case" however.
You cannot control everything in every situation, and every minute you spend telling yourself what can't do something is one more minute bodies will be piling up.
In the words of Patton "A good plan implemented today is better than the perfect plan implemented tomorrow." To put it more simply "speed is key." The more you fuck around, the worse it gets.
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
@PistolWhipped2008 Correct, but we are not in that situation at the moment. We are studying the situation because we have the luxury at the moment to do so. If we do not look at ALL facets right now, we are cheating ourselves in the end.
If you aren't going to look at a scenario 100%, you are wasting time, in my opinion. Weighing risk versus benefit has been the way of the warrior since Sun Tzu.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@millerusaf
I do not discount the value of after action reviews. However, my mindset remains the same. I will gladly analyze the situation for tactics I can utilize at a later date, but at the end of the day, standing by while a madman shoots up an IHOP is not kosher. I realize strategies that work (namely swiftness of decision and overwhelming violence of action) and prepare myself to be able to deliver them if I am ever put into that situation.
Qui audet adipiscitur: Who dares, wins.
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
A few thoughts from far greater minds than I.
"A man who has to be convinced to act before he acts is not a man of action. You must act as you breathe."
— Georges Clemmanceau
"Their comes a moment when you have to stop revving up the car and shove it into gear."
— David Mahoney
"I would rather regret the things I have done than the things I have not."
— Lucille Ball
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
@PistolWhipped2008
He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious.
- Sun Tzu
millerusaf 4 months ago
Yes, if you engage the threat, you may die.
Someday, you'll die anyway. No one lives forever.
Live your life in your little bubble, not willing to risk your life for others you've never met. Then you expect beat cops to do what you are unwilling to, for a meager $30k a year salary.
I say this not from a "Hero Complex" nor from the testosterone addled place you have hinted at.
If someone is killing innocent people, and you can stop it, it is your moral duty as a human being to do so.
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
@PistolWhipped2008 What about the people you are protecting? Do you leave them? What about them. Are the lives across the parking more important then the ones in your shop?
Why are some people so afraid to look at the ENTIRE situation and think of all possible outcomes and situations?
millerusaf 4 months ago
Finally, you advocate "avoiding the Hero Compex",
However I see no mention of the other side of the coin.
You have the skill, the equipment, and the ability to intervene. You, for whatever reason, don't. Now, when those men, women, and/or Guardsmen are lowered into the cold ground, their mothers, fathers, wives, and children weeping tears the dead will never see, what will you think then?
"I could have done something."
Now, the other option is living with that all your life.
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
So Closing to engage is not as impossible as you paint it.
As for stopping power, emptying a burst of handgun fire into the COM vitals, or into an attackers head, has a decidedly more lethal and immediate effect than a single round. So "stopping power" can be overcome with proper technique and tactics.
If you are worried about not being able to handle a situation, the solution isn't find a reason not to. It is to train until you are able to meet the challenge properly.
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
@PistolWhipped2008 I shoot 100 yards quite a bit with a handgun (I have a couple videos posted of it). You CANNOT ensure a critical COM hit right away at 100 yards. It is beyond the design of a typical self CCW handgun to be able to hit COM right away on a moving target at 100 yards every time. You may hit the target, but you cannot ensure you hit in a critical area. It is what it is. Shooting a relaxed 100 yards on a square range is different than shooting a 100 yard moving live target.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@millerusaf
I realize 100 yards is a stretch with a handgun. I have shot that range myself, and it is difficult under pressure.
Hence my support of the Close To Engage tactic.
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
@PistolWhipped2008 Alot of people don't take into account the backstop of the BBQ guy is he closed to engage. Any exchange of fire would have put the BBQ store and the bank behind him in peril. Also any shots missed by the BBQ guy would've have either went possibly into the IHOP or down the street.
One of the most important facets of concealed carry is knowing where those rounds will go.
Keep in mind, the whole goal of this video is to get people thinking.
millerusaf 4 months ago
Secondly, you keep mentioning the active shooter was using a rifle. This is true.
You also mention the BBQ owner had a handgun, which are poor fight stoppers. This is also true.
HOWEVER, I would venture to guess you may have played paintball before. If not, there is a technique often called "tree-walking". One keeps a solid barrier (trees, bunkers, or in this case, cars). It's often simple to approach places unseen from a specific direction when one knows their opponents location.
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
What happened to the days of truck guns?
First off let me start by saying I enjoy your channel.
Now, I do not know the level of training and equipment the BBQ shop owner, nor the shooter, had, therefore I cannot make the assessments you are. Neither can you, honestly.
HOWEVER, I have a few issues with this video. If you have beef with Gabe Suarez and WarriorTalk, then by all means, call them on it. Don't be a pussy about it and throw around vague hints about who you don't agree with.
PistolWhipped2008 4 months ago
@PistolWhipped2008 It would seem that Gabe Suarez is the one acting like the pussy around here. I actually tried to be a little respectful in this video. All Mr Suarez and a few if his staff instructors have done so far is call me childish names on their forum. That speaks VOLUMES for their professionalism. Sorry, but Mr Suarez and staff should hold themselves to higher standards because they represent their company.
He has his opinions, I have mine.
millerusaf 4 months ago
Miller, On the 9/11 flight over Pennsylvania, the passengers decided that action,fighting back,was preferable than the alternative. All I'm saying generally is "getting involved" is almost always better, for the victims and for the others coming to the rescue. Again, I am not talking of the BBQ guy, because I am not going to second guess anyone. Doing something,anything, is a much better message to put out there, than to have people frightened into inaction.
briz1911 4 months ago
@briz1911 He did do something. He protected those in his shop.
I don't advocate inaction at all.
millerusaf 4 months ago
Miller,it may have been unintentional on your part but it appears to me that you are espousing not to get involved. I think that is the wrong message for viewers to come away with.
briz1911 4 months ago
@briz1911 Nope, I'm not advocating inaction. I am advocating doing what you can in a situation like that. Look at it this way. You have a responsibility to the people around you. If you are the only one packing the firearm, those people are looking to you for protection. Are you just going to leave them?
People can't protect everyone. That is reality. It sucks, but it's true. You do what you can. You look at the situation and try to pick the best route you can.
millerusaf 4 months ago
Miller, I was not just talking of the BBQ guy. I was saying in a general way, that any individual can at least attempt to put a stop to a catastrophic incident such as this one. Look, I really don't see what the big deal is for someone to decide to get involved. Are there risks and repercussions, sure there are. But so there is in everything else we do every single day. I am sorry that you do not see the whole picture.
briz1911 4 months ago
@briz1911 I am looking at the whole picture, hence this video. One point of view is "attack attack attack". This point of view is defend defend defend.
millerusaf 4 months ago
Miller, you had better trade in your guns for diapers and pacifiers.
336Whiskey 4 months ago
@336Whiskey Thanks for contributing to the discussion. :)
millerusaf 4 months ago
He might be a "professional firarms instructor" but his personality is... well I don't want to talk bad about other people. LOL
bfgguns 4 months ago
@bfgguns It turns out he reopened the thread. I'm sure I have alot of warriortalk hate coming my way. It's cool. If they think I am such a joke, they are free to have a laugh at my expense and move on to bigger better things. I'm just some nut with a camera that posts vids on youtube... :)
millerusaf 4 months ago
Miller, I don't buy into your Hero theory. The RIGHT thing to do in this situation would have been to attempt to stop the shooter. And I am not just talking about the BBQ guy. You are sending a bad message and curling up into the fetal position is wrong.All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
briz1911 4 months ago
@briz1911 You are assuming that by keeping a watch over those around him, he was curling up and being a puss.
Reality sucks, and it's apparent that some people hate to hear about reality. They want to stay in their "I am warrior!!!" world.
People never want to address consequences for some reason. They never want to look at the WHOLE situation. Looking at the entire situation is what makes you better.
millerusaf 4 months ago
New Fav, Miller . Thanks , good buddy !
BrokenTengu99 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
you can what if something to death.
derekgrebner87 4 months ago
U are great miller usaf love the vids...... I prob would of stayed in the bbq establishment and secured the the people for safety reasons instead of enguaging a guy with a rifle knowing I have a handgun. I WOULD NEVER TAKE A HANDGUN TO A RIFLE FIGHT.
shooting0922 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Glad ran into this video, you know exactly what the F*K you are talking about. Sorry about that language but it was necessary. Great case study and very informative. To be honest if I where in this same shoots as the BBQ owner, I would have done the same thing. "The basic fact is he had a handgun and the shooter had a rifle" -You do not go into a gun fight with a knife -You do not go into a rifle fight with a hand gun period!
Darkdragynxi 4 months ago
Sorry Miller,I use the bank next to the BBQ.Its not 100 but 50 yds to the IHOP. The glass windows are on the street side facing away from the restaurant. This goes to the near and far ambush theory. Pistol or rifle it does matter but decent skills and who wants it the most, wins. Don't be surprised by ones strength when defending others. Soon as most suicidal shooters meet an aggressor they choose to take their own life quick to the head,there cowards for pain. Check your intel Gunny Z. USMC
silvereagle1833 4 months ago
@silvereagle1833 I guess google maps is wrong with their measurement scale.
Never assume an active shooter will stop at the first sign of resistance.
millerusaf 4 months ago
Stray bullets man, stray bullets. This ain't the bench. You're running, shooting, most likely a little panicky. Plus dude had a high-powered rifle. His rounds are going straight through those cars like butter. Goddamn common sense is going down the shitter nowadays with this Hollywood B.S. There's too many variables to say whether or not the bbq guy was in the right, but my call would've been the same as his. This shit isn't a game. If you value your life, defend, not attack.
AceofSpad3sking1994 4 months ago
the guy did the right thing staying putt protect your area ect ect
snooch1975 4 months ago
Y DO COWARDS SHOOT INNOCENT PEOPLE? HE SHOULD HAVE ATLEAST WALKED IN THE WHITEHOUSE AND CLEARED OUT THE LIBERALS INSTEAD THE AMMO WOULD GOTO BETTER USE THAT WAY
FirearmsTechnician 4 months ago
I live not far from here and that bbq guy was in the right.. first off you have a van pull up and one guy come out and start shooting.. you don't even know wtf is going on and if there is anymore people in the van..
daddyoca69 4 months ago
There is a 3rd option and thats get everyone out the back door of the bbq shop first just in case he does turn and start shooting everywhere. He is not shooting at me or my family THEY are why I carry first and formost to protect my kids and wife.
snipervictim 4 months ago
the video stops at 1911 :)
BALJIT147 4 months ago
Not a boring video and not wordy, very much needed in the armchair gunslinger asshat community. Nobody can make the call except the guy in the situation. Thanks for your sane and well thought out contribution to the responsible gun owners.
freemutant 4 months ago
People crack me up. Especially when it is clear they have never been shot at or in a situation like that. The truth is ANYONE is going to be keenly aware of the complexity of that situation while in it and could never possibly know exactly what they would do. In fact, most would likely be paralyzed with fear and by the time they got control of it the situation over. Those tend to be the same guys who say stuff like 9mm lead is nearly incapable of reliably producing mortal wounds. It's all fun a
RobbieGTV 4 months ago
People are questioning his decision? That is crazy. He looked at the sitiation and decided the best way he could be helpful was to protect the people around him. I do not understand how someone can question that.
Jesses001 4 months ago
Very well thought out. I read Suarez`s response and I think that him and others are over simplifying the situation. Lots of macho bs too. It would be great to take out the bad guy and save the day but we gotta be realistic about not only our capabilites but the bad guys capability as well, too many variables. It all depends on the situation.
berettaman092 4 months ago
You don't question a decision like that. As long as what they did was fairly reasonable you leave their decision alone. Either choice was a reasonable one.
BillyJoe1305 4 months ago
I see no link...
LUVRoffreedom76 4 months ago
goood points man. Stuff to think about.
monsterman27 4 months ago
Also the rifle guy could be wearing body armor like those guys in the north hollywood shoot out
llib90630 4 months ago
Wow, what a coincidence, I had stumbled onto the Warrior talk forums a few days ago for AK info, but seeing how Suarez is a massive dick, I'm done with that site.
Shame, he could be a much richer man if he was more polite.
Spec0psGrunt 4 months ago
Comment removed
Spec0psGrunt 4 months ago
Another thing to consider is that there may a second shooter going towards another area in the strip mall, or even the BBQ joint. By closing to engage you would leave yourself exposed to that second shooter, and leave your family and everyone else in the restaurant unprotected if that second shooter comes.
sicarii1138 4 months ago
Good advise.
rzracer69 4 months ago
Miller, I love how you always say you wanna stay away from drama and then you kick a hornet's nest. Let people do what they want. What does it matter to me if stupid people do stupid shit? None!!! That's on them. Its not my or your obligation to teach, instruct or correct anyone. Just do you and if an internet hero's go for it or cowards curl up into a ball that's on them... I would have secured my immediate area, called 911 and stayed put. If he closed in on us then I'd respond accordingly.
eldogg4life 4 months ago
@eldogg4life I don't start high school drama, but I will call out a foul if I see one. The fact is tons of people learn everything they know from internet research. It is what it is. A new person to the world of self defense won't know the complexity of attempting to engage a person armed with a rifle while only armed with a handgun. They will get a false sense of security, and that may come back to bite them in the worst way.
millerusaf 4 months ago 7
@eldogg4life
what happens when one of the hero wannabes decide to be superman and hit a bystander? what if that bystander is you? the tables will turn and you will be very upset if you survive.
qikies 4 months ago
@qikies I'd expect something like that to happen because people naturally panic even those with a CCW. Which is why I would lay low, find cover, stay put and scan 360 degrees and if an immediate threat to ME is presented then I'll handle it. I'm not sworn to protect or defend anyone. Why weren't they armed to defend themselves? If they care so little about their lives/safety then why should I risk my life to save theirs... No matter how many vids we do on this ppl will still be under trained.
eldogg4life 4 months ago
Even if you subscribe to the "CCW Hero" idea, and even if this CCW individual was highly-trained, well-practiced, expert shooter with extensive military/police/tactical training... the basic fact is he had a handgun and the shooter had a rifle. The over-match in firepower, combined with the shooter entirely having the initiative and unknown motives, is reason enough to escape or retrograde into a strong defensive position.
silvermediastudio 4 months ago 2
@silvermediastudio Well said. Trying to take the initiative away from a well motivated rifle shooter with nothing but a pistol is a tricky and extremely risky endeavor, and the risks do not seem to outweigh the benefits.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@millerusaf Affirmative. This, and the associated videos, are some of your best brother. Outstanding work.
silvermediastudio 4 months ago
that is honestly the the first instinct for me is to rush forward and close the gap a little. i dont realy know all the details of this story. there may or may not have been large parked cars that could have provided adequate cover, how long did it take the cinceal carrier to take action. i may have wanted to wait and stay with the others. but then if he does come over, youre hopped. and now you have no chance of walking up on him
Duckagee 4 months ago
@Duckagee Cars provide little-to-no cover from rifle fire, and minimal cover from service-caliber handgun fire. The best you can hope for from a car or truck is partial concealment.
silvermediastudio 4 months ago
Sorry @millerusaf, replied to wrong comment.
mryellow123 4 months ago
In one of your probabilities you mentioned hitting and killing a bystander. The CCW holder could and probably would be charged with murder in that situation correct?
parrott15 4 months ago
After the BBQ owner is dead.... Guess which way the shooters attention is focused... Guess where he's going next... Dead BBQ guy (who is now also possibly an ex-killer of innocents from missed shots), dead customers, dead family. He did well. Hindsight is 20/20.
mryellow123 4 months ago
I carry a breakdown single shot NEF in .300 WinMag in my suitcase and have Level IV Ceramic plates duct taped to my back. I would've moved to cover and assembled the NEF to take a precision shot on the gunman.
If for some reason the NEF broke, I would pull one of my 4 concealed GLOCKs and engaged the gunman by laying down suppressive fire with 5 or 6 of the 33rd magazines I keep strapped to my ankle.
Anyone who wouldn't do that is a coward and not a Sheep Dog.
I am a Sheep Dog. Woof Woof.
hydrashok556 4 months ago
You are absolutely right. Hitting a possibly moving armed target with a rifle at 100 yards with a pistol and people behind it is just a roll with the dice.
People are talking crap when they say "yeah I would have shot him if I were in this situation". People on the "warrior talk forum" are pathetic. Have you read their comments? I still can't stop laughing... =P
bfgguns 4 months ago
From the news report I found Eduardo Sencion, killed a motorcyclist outside and then walked into the IHOP and began shooting, if this is infact the case I believe the BBQ shop owner made the right decision, he could only have risked more lives including his own going in there.
GhostDivisionAirsoft 4 months ago 3
Yup!
Buckshotsteve1 4 months ago
Great video.
JustAnotherGuy186 4 months ago
Be the hero if the problem finds you. Dont find the problem.
K1ll3rM4st3r 4 months ago
The guy did what he had to do. People are posers they are wanting a firefight but you know what those are the first people to die or coward out in a firefight...
iowndunoob 4 months ago
Yes thats the truth. Avoid been the heroe!
SRCDLC 4 months ago
I see ur points in this vid and u touched base on one of my biggest fears and that is having to draw my weapon but me being mistaken as the threat i think about that scenario all the time and i hope i never have to encounter that
TacticalGunChannel 4 months ago
I think one of the best bits of advice I've heard on this subject was in a gun training video I watched once, the instructor said something along the lines of "If you pull into a wal-mart parking lot and you hear gun shots and you have a rifle in the trunk, get back in your car and go to K-Mart they have a Blue Light Special going on."
Also I'm normally not one to say this, but I figure most who are saying they could take him out and probably CoD players =/
PhauxTheFox 4 months ago
A conceal carry permit holder has no obligation to go engage a shooter. They can if they want and are more than welcome, but I don't slate someone for choosing to stay put and protect their shop. You can't judge the guy unless you we're in a similar situation because you have no idea what you would do until you're there. I could go all day about how I would go give the guy two to the chest and one to the head but it means shit sitting here typing it on a computer.
Ninety9Soulz 4 months ago
Well said. As for me, it's family first. If I have only a handgun, then get far, far away or sit tight behind as much cover as possible.
scooter17568 4 months ago
Hey, maybe all he had was a kel tec. lol
bonsa100 4 months ago
Excellent breakdown Miller. I disagreed with you at first...But after going every aspect of the scenario (considering your family is safe next to you) I do agree with your thoughts here.
Jeenyus1983 4 months ago
I am glad you made this video. You brought forward good info and I do stand corrected on few points. Under the active shooter protocol you will be tagged as an additional shooter and will put down "quickly" even by another sheep dog. IF you are lucky and skilled to get a HEAD shot, unless you hit a CNS point, the shooter will stay active for few minutes. I seen many GSW in the head and will not go down as quickly. The Secret ! Stay calm, find cover, give 911 as much information you can.
TheTacticalDAD 4 months ago
In this scenario that man's choice did not cost additional lives or his own. So with that said in my opinion he did the right thing. Like you said at 100 yards a pistol of any kind is no match for any center fire rifle, even if it is a bolt action. So he was a hero by deciding to stay put and keeping the people with him safe.
Jaybird616 4 months ago
sureity?
556DOS45 4 months ago
i wouldn't have had to leave the BBQ. Becuz Chuck Norris would have taken care of it!
p.s.
Chuck is almost always with me!
556DOS45 4 months ago
great video miller....listen guys never engage in a gun fight or any type of fight that you are not trained for. this is not the movies. you will find out real quick how fast thing will go wrong be safe and think clearly again great video miller
redmule02 4 months ago
My first thought is get in my car and run his ass over!
luellenjude 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
A thoughtful and intelligent contribution!
81Draco 4 months ago
SGT Miller:
Your comment below makes me wonder whether your video is really about an IHOP AAR, or just a vehicle to bash Gabe Suarez.
Regarding Suarez's convictions, you know the answer. In the USA it is illegal for a felon to possess a firearm. The fact that Mr. Suarez can lawfully possess firearms makes it crystal clear to all the world that if he has had any legal trouble, it was only at the misdemeanor level.
Have you ever been in a gunfight sir? Or do you only academically discuss 'em
JBruckner20001 4 months ago
@JBruckner20001 This is about "hero syndrome" and Mr Suarez is only one of those out there that has it. It runs rampant in the gun community, and it's disappointing to see it in CCW instructor circles.
Am I wrong regarding the points I bring forth in this video? Am I wrong in pointing out the possible consequences?
millerusaf 4 months ago
@millerusaf I agree with many of your points. I think you could have better represented your point by sticking to the facts as you see them, and staying away from the personal.
The Internet is full of trash talking keyboard commandos who would run like bitches if they were suddenly facing danger. I laugh at half the 'I woulda' posts I read.
JBruckner20001 4 months ago
@millerusaf You are only wrong to the extent that you act as an apologist for surrender. A simple cursory study of active-shooter incidents shows that they generally stop all aggression at the first sign of meaningful resistance .. often turning their guns on themselves. It doesn't require superhuman skill or head-shots at 100 yards ... only the willingness to get in the fight. The facts seem to run contrary to your theoretical "possible consequences". Shouldn't reality be our guide?
ZombieTactics 4 months ago
@ZombieTactics No study will accurately predict the circumstances of the next active shooter encounter. If you do not look at all the possible consequences/outcomes, you are doing yourself a disservice.
You say I advocate surrender, but you missed the whole point of this video. I do not advocate surrender in the least, but what I do advocate is a hard look at reality.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@millerusaf If this is the case, then why would you put forth raw theory based upon nothing but your surmise of "possible outcomes", rather than simply study what - in REALITY - has happened in almost every known case? There's a disconnect there which you aren't accounting for, but rather studiously avoiding. The "what if" game only makes sens if the "what ifs" are something known to happen. We should not damn the man for his inaction, but neither should we defend/suggest it generally
ZombieTactics 4 months ago
@ZombieTactics We know what inaction produces in every case ... more death and injury. We know what resistance has produced in most cases ... and end to the aggression. Resistance can be as simple as those who (drawing no weapons themselves) disarmed the nut in Arizona, just as he was attempting a reload. What -- "unarmed against a Glock? What could they do?" They RESISTED, and ended the attack. Given these simple facts, why would you argue for the former than the latter as fitting and proper?
ZombieTactics 4 months ago
@JBruckner20001 So you defend Suarez, who typed up an article which mounted a personal attack against the guy in the BBQ shop (which basically generated this entire discussion). But you don't support Miller, b/c he questioned Suarez, and you think that's a personal attack. Clearly, your logic is flawless. I'm not questioning Suarez's training, or tactics. But the fact remains, he is a liar and a thief, and he plead guilty to such in a court of law, resulting in almost a year of jail time.
jakkd07 4 months ago
bottom line is people can talk but if your not prepared to do violence on someone your gunna do squat. have you ever even punched someone in the face let alone kill some one? no the man did the practical thing period.
fatdan172501 4 months ago
You hit it right on the head with this video . I didn't know GS and his forum were talking about this . The BBQ guy did the right thing . Protected his family and stayed alive . You went through all of the scenarios , the only one that would have made the BBQ guy do something is if the gun man turned his attention to where he was and his family. Its called the Badger mentality . Back me in a hole till I can't go any deeper in it then I have no choice but to fight .
Thumbs up Miller .
jonmorry333 4 months ago
great vid miller, nothing boring about it.. very good points and information..
HellbillyCuntryMusic 4 months ago
A thoughtful and intelligent contribution to the conversation about this incident. Thank you.
axiomaticfish 4 months ago
Well thought out sir! I agree 100% with your logic. Great video, keep up the good work!!!
Recpro89 4 months ago
Sure, address the hero syndrome...but what about people like myself the coward complex? I would have not only not confronted the guy with the rifle. I would have turned off the open sign, turned off the lights, and made everyone inside pretend to be sleeping.
TheYankeeMarshal 4 months ago 2
@TheYankeeMarshal I'm with you :)
timbo749 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheYankeeMarshal I'm with you :)
timbo749 4 months ago
u gota be smart, i believe in protecting others but you gota use ur head.
southerner985 4 months ago
I love armchair warriors. These are the idiots that are going to be part of the problem, not the solution. I carry a firearm, ALL the time. Because of this, my criteria are:
1. Protect myself and my loved ones.
2. Contain my immediate area.
3. Assess the situation and continue to defend my immediate area.
Not my job to be a hero. Yes, I'm prepared, but so could anyone in the IHOP. It's not my place to play hero, my place is my family and my immediate safety.
The sheep need to do the same.
CTKix 4 months ago
@CTKix While I'm at it........
I spend thousands of dollars preparing to defend myself. Nothing is stopping others from doing the same. My job is to make sure I'm here for my loved ones. Everyone has the option to make certain choices whether to do the same or not. I chose to prepare.
Lest we forget, every bullet has an attorney attached to it. Both in civil and criminal court. If I'm in jail, I can't protect my family either.
Others need to take responsibility on their own as well.
CTKix 4 months ago
@CTKix I was pretty much with you up until the "sheep" talk.
jakkd07 4 months ago
@jakkd07 You don't think others need to take their own safety seriously? As an activist, I hear too much of the "gun nut" complex. Here you have a guy that did the exact thing he was supposed to do. Then you get Zamudio in Arizona with the Giffords shooting and how people blasted him for what he did (though he didn't fire a shot). Can't have it both ways.
I agree, not everyone is "gun ready", but too many have the "sheep" mentality that as long as they mind their own business, their OK.
CTKix 4 months ago
@CTKix Never said I wanted it both ways. I simply don't agree made up nicknames like sheep and sheep dogs etc. Those terms have basically become catch phrases a person uses as part of his business to make money. And the title(s) such as sheep dog only serve to make the bearer feel special, as if he/she is part of some special club. But hey, to each their own.
jakkd07 4 months ago
this video is real man you should do more videos like this....justin
1987justinp 4 months ago
Nutnfancy would zap him.
DudeNumberOnePlus 4 months ago
@DudeNumberOnePlus ...not with his Kel Tec or Kahr...not at 100 yards.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@millerusaf Why not? after all Nevada is right next to Utah.
DudeNumberOnePlus 4 months ago
@DudeNumberOnePlus lol
millerusaf 4 months ago
It's our duty to stand up and protect our fellow man. Don't sit around applauding this guy for being "smart". He could have possibly saved lives, but instead he hid in fear, hoping the bad man would go away. I think you are a good man miller, but to be a great man you must always put others before yourself. Nutnfancy's still the best. Be sheepdogs.
KiernanMurphy 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy You are talking to a military man, so I know all about "duty". Don't preach to me about putting others before myself, because I know all about that.
Do this for me. Sit down for a minute and really think about this type of scenario and put yourself in his shoes. Forget about what nutnfancy says, or what I say. Look at the facts of the situation and weigh the outcomes. You have a pistol. You have a 100 yard shot. He has a rifle. Your backstop is people. Your target is moving.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy It does no good being a "sheepdog" if you just rush into a situation and create more casualties. What about the people in the BBQ that he was protecting (his family included). I will also add that rounds were impacting around the BBQ also. Do you leave your family and the people in your establishment unprotected? What if you die? Your family and establishment is now unprotected.
All I ask is to think about things.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy Playing armchair quarterback does NOTHING at all. It's all too easy to puff up the chest and say "he was a coward", but when you look at the realities of the matter, your eyes open up a little.
Even a fully outfiitted military fireteam wouldn't rush towards one man with a rifle without having a plan set up and weighing the risks/versus rewards.
Like I said, take an honest look at the situation. Use you OWN head. Forget everyone else.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@millerusaf It's all to easy to sit there and say he did the right thing, because you know you wouldn't have had what it takes to step up and do all you can to stop evil. You justify him because you need to justify yourself. I don't know if you believe in God, but I know that if I were in the BBQ guy's place and went out to engage, if God willed for me to stop the gunman, then I would prevail, no matter how slim the chances seem. David and Goliath. Psalms 23. Phillipians 4:13.
KiernanMurphy 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy Do you hang out on Warriortalk alot? You sound a lot like some of Gabe Suarez's fanboys.
I am a Christian, and I know about sacrifice. You are trying to turn the conversation around to make it out like I am a coward of some sort, but the fact is you seem real hesitant to look at this situation with an impartial mind and with common sense thrown in. You think this BBQ guy was a coward. What makes you think we wasn't protecting those in his store?
millerusaf 4 months ago
@millerusaf Are you a good practicing christian? Do you go to church more than just Christmas and Easter? Do you pray multiple times a day? Do you study the scriptures daily? Have you ever really prayed with a sincere heart to know that God is real and that Jesus is the Christ and that you are going to the right church? Many people call themselves Christian, but few truly are. Do you believe the story of David and Goliath? Can't God make the underdog win against all odds?
KiernanMurphy 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy Judge not lest ye be judged yourself.
The plain cold hard reality is sometime the bad guy wins. If you disagree with that fact, look at the casualties of the current wars, and look at the roster of police officer that were killed in the line of duty.
You said "right church". Please enlighten me to which church is the "right church".
Yes, I am a Christian.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@millerusaf I can't tell you which is the right church. You must find that out for yourself. Don't just go to a church because your parents did, or your friends do (the main reason most people I see go to different churches), they might be wrong.
KiernanMurphy 4 months ago
We've lost about 6000 and killed over 50000. We are winning. We already actually won when we toppled the Taliban Government, and when we got rid of Saddam's government and Iraq had it's elections. Those were the goals. What we are still doing isn't a war. I don't know why people consider it a war. We are just acting as a security force and training the soldiers and police of Iraq and Afghanistan. Terrorist will always remain. All we can do is hit them when they show their heads like whack-a-mole
KiernanMurphy 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy Before you tell me "no it means this" let me say the meaning of the story has changed over time.
Originally it was about David's brains and creative ability to be a game changing leader who could take the Jewish people forward and enable them to capture a lot of land from powerful neighbours. Once people became less familiar with the power of a sling and religious dogma kicked in it became about "Goliath was big and David was small" which wasn't exactly the original point.
mryellow123 4 months ago
@millerusaf Oh and just by the way, I actually don't even know what Warriortalk is. Maybe I'll look them up and see what their about. =)
KiernanMurphy 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy they're*
KiernanMurphy 4 months ago
@millerusaf heh apart from all the "right church" garbage you go on with, David and Goliath can be put in some perspective by this discussion...... David had a rifle. Goliath had a pistol. David dropped him at range with a very accurate and effective weapon imparting *massive* blunt force.
Nothing to do with odds being improved by a super-natural being, David just had a kickass weapon and was well practiced. To say David was the underdog in this fight is a misconception.
mryellow123 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy
You can't save them all. Why risk even more casualty and give up a tactical advantage for your ego?
HawaiiJuniorCycling 4 months ago
This is a video that every CCW class should watch. Anyone that is calling the BBQ guy a coward is a fool. The shooter had all the cards and would not worry about the people behind you in the BBQ--he would be dumping mags at you and your family behind you. I bet the people in the BBQ who were hiding behind him don't think he is a coward and are glad he stayed.
MrM2hb 4 months ago
Well said man, only training school that goes beyond "shooting" is front sight. they have a class where they de-program you from that "i'm a hero" mentality. i agree, even in a shoot out... just be vigilant, take video if you can and don't make the situation worst.
LosAngelesWeedSmoker 4 months ago
Sorry to everyone I'm done.... damn it miller you just need to post you and your wife shooting.
jmmurdy 4 months ago
@jmmurdy It's good that you got worked up. That is what this video is for. I want people to think about things and not just blindly follow other's viewpoints without honestly running over the thoughts/scenarios in their heads.
There will be more videos like this.
millerusaf 4 months ago
Think of the scores of people mourning over the loss of loved ones that could have possibly been saved. It doesn't matter that your own life is in danger, all that should matter is getting others lives out of danger. Instead of cowering and hoping he doesn't come over to where you are, man up, put your balls to the walls, close to a good range, and put a bullet in this psycho's head. Evil triumphs when good does nothing. Police take like 10 minutes to arrive to crimes scenes on average.
KiernanMurphy 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy You are not in reality with this statement. Look at some of the scenarios I put forth in this video and you can see possible outcomes.
Know this..... you are NOT an uber SWAT team hero, you are NOT some tier 1 delta operator, you are NOT some superhero. You ARE a CCW permit holder. Act accordingly and know YOUR ROLE. Sometimes the best thing to do is NOT fire and help get people away from the situation (taking cover or evac). Drawing and firing is your LAST option.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy
well maybe one of those people in the ihop should have been carring. Then they would not have been dead.
I am all with miller on this one. I carry but sorry i am not gonna be concerned and risk my life for other random people. I care and worry about my family. I would have stayed in doors and protect my family incase the guy comes over to the bbq place.
dp665 4 months ago
@dp665 and it wasn't just his family. There were other patrons in the BBQ.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@dp665 I agree with you that someone in IHOP should be carrying. Everyone should be carrying. ( everyone that can in your family should too) Even though they are random people to you they aren't random to some one else. They are fathers, mothers, daughters, brothers, sons, sisters, wives, husbands, friends, etc. How about this, he gets everyone in his BBQ to go out the back door or go into the secret back room or whatever, then moves to engage.
KiernanMurphy 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy Here's another complication. Police arrive and see you outdoors with a firearm. Acting under active shooter protocol, they WILL most likely engage you. Also take into consideration that the pistol is not a reliable manstopper. Now add the complication of the 100 yard distance. 100 yards, and you have a pistol caliber going against a 7.62x39mm that will reach out to 650 yards easily. Unstable pistol versus stable rifle.
Reality sucks, but it is what it is. God bless.
millerusaf 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy
everyone does carry in my family (from me the youngest at 24 to my grandma the oldest at 86)
but you are right to someone they are mothers, sons, daughters, fathers, ect... but to me. there random people. and i am not going to put my life on the line for some random person. and i do not expect some random person to put there life on the line for me. the only person i have a duty to protect is myself and my loved ones. i would have done the samething as the guy in the bbq store.
dp665 4 months ago
I don't care how bad the odds are. If you're to greedy to take the chance to save even just one life, then you deserve rot in Hell. Imagine if your family was at that IHOP. Wouldn't you want someone to at least try and stop the attacker. All you people saying it was smart because he could face big legal problems, YOU MAKE ME SICK. It's better to be go to prison and just your life messed up, then it is for multiple people to die, or have life altering injuries.
KiernanMurphy 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy In this situation, the BBQ guy's family was in his BBQ, not in the IHOP. Also, let's mention the fact that the shooter also went into the IHOP, which compounded the situation.
It's sad that I make you sick for portraying common sense on this issue. It is what it is, and with a concealed carry permit YOU have an obligation to weight ALL avenues. By rushing into a situation thinking you will be the hero of the day, you stand a high risk of making yourself a casualty. (cont)
millerusaf 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy ...it's the same concept as when a rescue team first surveys the situation before just running into a burning building. They want to make sure they don't become casualties themselves, and add to the problem.
Reality is just that...it's reality. Things are more complicated than just engaging the threat.
How would you feel if one of your rounds missed your long range target and killed an innocent person?
millerusaf 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy
better to go to prison... your so stupid.
dp665 4 months ago
the fact of the matter is nobody knows what they would do unless your there while its happening id say id get to my truck and grab my scoped rife and throw one between the eyes but who knows if there would have been a clear shot for that or mabe i couldnt get to my truck without him spoting me you just dont know untill your there and have to make the choice yourself
roadhog1986 4 months ago
I strongly disagree with the BBQ guy's choice. I'm not saying he's a bad person, but maybe he's just not the right kind of person. I believe when you get a concealed carry permit, you are taking an oath to be a sheepdog that will protect the innocent and defenseless. CCWP holders are supposed to be guardian angels. I hope all you guys out there that carry conceal are more willing to help your fellow man. It's your job to put others lives before your own.(continued)
KiernanMurphy 4 months ago
@KiernanMurphy Do you shoot when the back stop consists of innocent people? Compound that by the fact that you are facing deadly, very capable semi automatic rifle with only a pistol, and the target is out of practical pistol range. Also, compound that with the fact that the target is moving and very aware of his surroundings.
Will running into the fight make things better or worse? It's always a tough call, and there are always consequences to your actions.
millerusaf 4 months ago