PZL Junior Sailplane - North Plains, OR, Oct 11, 2006

[DaltonArgue]

I live in north plains

[glallee]

@DaltonArgue - so have you ever taken a ride? We are open days that start with W -- Wednesdays & Weekends :)

[gregmos1994]

polish gliders is best

[love2mine4]

nice but small town i live there

[sbb53199]

TCK8....I agree,that was the fastest preflight check in a glider I have ever seen.

Base turn and the final were very ill defined...just ended up as a giant u turn.

I probably would have trimmed the plane for the circuit speed.....one less thing to worry about.

half dive brakes on the base turn seemed a bit automatic doing this most surely left him low on final.

Also..I would not have touched the divebrakes until I was absolutely sure that I was going to be in an overshoot position.

cheers s

[CarsonMcCullers0]

The "pipe organ" sound you hear throughput the video is characteristic of the PZL Junior aircraft; I'm not sure if it is the tail lifting handle (which I usually push into the fuselage) or the area where the elevator linkage is located (which we usually have taped over). The sound is a bit eerie but you get used to if after a while.

[TheCryptKeeper8]

Bad points. dont mind a read check at the beginning but seemed rushed.You kept adjusting your shoulder strap; should B part of initial check.Reading check on circuit is really bad-need a good lookout in the circuit. Testing your spoilers seemed surplus to requirment. You only lose valuable height and you will know if they work or not in a few secods as you turn base/final anyway. I could be wrong but it looked like you flew it onto the ground instead of letting it settle. Thanks for post

[TheCryptKeeper8]

Good points first.excellent vid .good detail. good co-ordination. nice captions and explanations. Good RT.  Nice, clear and with pauses.

[huginhoinyoin]

nice

[LeveLageLanden]

i'm not sure, but i think it is the noise of a machine that declares hot air is rising in the area where the flier is flying, so that he knows he can go up.

[hrford]

Sailplanes are simple beasts. Surely it's better to know the checklist and be looking OUT of the cockpit rather than have it written out anywhere? If you have the tendancy to 'forget' the checks perhaps you shouldn't be flying? Here in the UK there are only 3 major checklists. Launch CBSIFTCBE, acro HASSLL and Landing FUSTALL. It's part of the training and quite straight forward. The letters are normally labelled on the instrument panel.

[glallee]

Of course its better to be looking out. Of course, if memorized checklists were reliable, folks wouldn't continue to land wheels up. And its just hubris to think that sailplanes are some special exception; they are the ONLY category of aircraft not REQUIRED to use printed checklists. As noted earlier, the checklist needs to be on the dash or a kneebooard, not handheld, so you can keep up the 16 seconds out / 4 seconds inside scan.

[Conan1ts]

You fly this nice plane different like we do here in Germany. We don't have a paper-checklist, we have to know it by heart.

Then we have an extra checklist to think through right before takeoff for avoiding crashes due to cable breaks. The next thing I recognized was that you went through the paper-checklist before APP, what we don't. During APP and touchdown, we use our spoilers, which you did only after TD. We also don't touch down with our main wheel but which our skid-wheel.

But nice video!!

[bertjuhh16]

He did use spoilers from baseleg on (also in the final-turn, not the procedure in holland)

[bertjuhh16]

And by the way, the best attitude to TD in the Junior is two-point (so skid & mainwheel at the same time).

wie viel starts hast du jezt gemacht? und wie lang bist du eine segelflieger?

grussen aus holland

[Conan1ts]

I prefer my kind of landing with the skid-wheel. Why? Because there are 50% of our FIs, who see the two-point landing and say, it's a great landing. But there are also 50% of those, who say it was a main wheel landing.

It's a thing of how they interpret the landing.

And with the skid-wheel, you're avoiding some bad misunderstandings. ;o)

I just hate that every FI has another opinion as his college next to him.

I have now 142 TOs, but I guess only 30 on my favorite plane, the Junior. :o)

[bertjuhh16]

Nice,

in deed the first FI says it was a from the book landing while the next says it was a main wheel landing.

200 t/o's 130 Junior

even 1 time an open canopy on short final, luckily we had bars in front of the canopy (for the wires when you land out) so i could grab them and close the canope. The canopy-lock mechanism was too short or so. New one is ordered now, but now i always doublecheck the canopy locked!

Greetings

[Conan1ts]

Holy shit. It can kill a man because of the shock. :oO

We had about 3 very rough Junior-landings on our airfield, the last one broke one of ours. It's now getting repaired.

[LeveLageLanden]

ik ben ook nl

[wiacaceti]

In midwest USA, no flying until checklists are memorized. Somewhat disconcerting to see a paper checklist read in the landing pattern! Thank you for the video ride.

[twoaxis]

da haste recht, die check liste fürn junior hat man doch im kopf, die paar sachen, bei nem motorsegler oder nem turbo isses ja was anderes,....

[vsolaris]

enjoyed your video. I have taken a ride from North Plains a few years back. Nice view of St. Helens and Rainier. Someday I'll get back into sailplane gliding. I solo'd a long time ago at Dillingham on Oahu but have only flown the schweizer 232. Not exactly high performance.

[Pik20b]

Glallee,

Is it my imagination or was your turn to final at barely 40 ft. AGL??? If so, hope your circuits are better now and you aren't mowing grass any longer. Good video, by the way.

[glallee]

Started the turn at 250 ft AGL (450 MSL on altimeter) and finished at 150 ft AGL. Club safety guidance is no turns to final below 200 ft AGL, and when reviewing this with my instructor he clarified the 200 ft AGL should really be the *end* of the turn (not the start). Of course this was two seasons and 50 flights ago, too. (As I said below, this flight was a deliberate exercise to land at the threshold.)

[eaglesdood16]

thats so cool. how long were you in the air?

[glallee]

Answered, below: 19 minutes.

[diaspar77]

oh yeah, and on the landing, you flew it on - I counted *two* bounces. Just try to hold it a few inches off the deck for as long as you can, and it'll land itself when it's ready.

[glallee]

Thanks for the advice. I'll try it in April after we start flying again. (Too rainy in western Oregon to use the field mid October thru March). (BTW, I count 3.)

[diaspar77]

Just a quick thought from another junior flyer ... don't you want to keep your left hand on the release during at least the early part of the ground roll?

[chrisrobsoar]

When attaching the cable let the handle go suddenly so that it closes fully, do not ease it in. This ensures that the over-center levers are in the correct position. Letting it go slowly can allow friction in the circuit to hold the hook partly open and cause an early release. This is particuarly important for winch launching.

[swfrx]

Having watched it all through I found myself wondering just how low you are prepared to do a final turn... Then I found myself remembering that where I fly (in the UK) there are *always* instructors watching landings, and if I turned finals that low I would find a reception committee waiting expecting me to have a *very* good explaination.

[glallee]

Funny you should mention it. My having filmed this lead directly to that conversation with several instructors and fellow club members, and trust me, in very thorough detail. I don't believe the depth of the conversation nor the learning would have happened without it.

[swfrx]

I'm surprised you are having to film things to get the feedback you need. I guess things are different where you fly - we always have instructors around, we always have a Duty Instructor who keeps an eye on what is going on, who is doing what (and how) and briefs most pilots before launch. It feels to me that that level of watching isn't going on at your club. Until we have silver we have to be briefed before all flights.

[swfrx]

I find seeing the take-off with the pilot's left hand on the trimmer instead of the release deeply worrying. If the wing drops the last thing he needs to be doing is finding the release.

[glallee]

Yep. That is the main reason I started filming -- to find, and fix, these things. My instructor pointed that out that I need to guard the release.

[swfrx]

What surprises me is that your instructor didn't brief you to do this when you were flying dual, and didn't look to see if you were doing this. In the Junior it's also easy to observe, unlike the Dicus and Pegase where the release is by the stick, between your kneew.

[glallee]

Yeah, I can't explain this either. I'm sure we covered it in training, but somewhere over time I must have stopped doing it.

[aceman4533]

that was hot,but landing in that thing looks like it sucks

[swfrx]

Juniors can be landed perfectly well, but the one in the video looked to be more of an arrival than a landing.

[glallee]

Good one. Just looking to get better, so appreciate the constructive feedback.

[Mav1843]

Your club seems very reckless! I've been in gliders for a long time and see some very bad mistakes. Like the crossed rope, the speedy checklist, the 15 degree turns in your pattern! Poor Flying!

[gallan674]

I absolutly agree. whats the point in the check lists. if you need them then you dont really know what you are doing and potential hazard because not enough lookout. and there were no positive turns in the circuit. it seemed very haphazard... well i've said my bit

[glallee]

See earlier comment on check lists: memorized are inherently unsafe and no other category of aircraft are allowed to use memorized checklists. The landing technique is called a Piggott corner, and it was recommended by the Soaring Safety Foundation when they presented to our club the month previous to this flight. They didn't really say anything about the appropriate angle of bank; I was just flying the ground path it suggested and making sure the turns were well coordinated.

[swfrx]

Hopefully you know why they advocate a Piggott Corner - presumably named after Derek Piggott. And I also was amazed to see the pilot looking at a bit of paper rather than the circuit and other traffic....

[glallee]

You must be pretty young to be so judgemental: A whole club damned on the basis of one example. As it turns out the guy doing the hookup was just learning, and I watched the rope play out. Had it knotted, I would have simply pulled the release. This was my 2nd flight that day, and the checklist was not rushed. The pattern was a learning exercise in 1) short field landing (at the threshold) and 2) the 55-5 / Piggett corner that the Soaring Safety Association is advocating.

[gallan674]

well i guess it is just the different ways we all do things. if it works for you then ok but remember to keep a good lookout when using checklist in air. thanks for the reply

[Tarjuton]

Thanks for talking your way though the flight. Help us that have little experience. Great Vid.

[stormbreaker11992288]

Awesome!!!! Thank for uploading this! Check out my sailplane vid.

[Perovitch]

Fantastic! Thank You Very Much.

Great Video. Reminds me of my summer best moments.

Thanks again!

[DrainExpress]

Veeeery nice,thank you!

[FastDash9]

Very nice. I love sailplanes! Thanks for that. How long was the flight, from the time you cut off from the plane?

[glallee]

19 minutes from release to landing.

[Tongetamo]

Thanks for the Video. In mi opinion, this is a very good video description of how a real flight is arround here. May I assume that you were in a hurry at take off? I have been instructed to go throught the checks much slowly.

[UKmatt89]

HOW DO YOU FIT A CAMERA IN THERE? as Im taking my first gliding flight soon, and want a camera there.

[glallee]

Its a very small (1.5"w x 3.5"h x2.8"d) and light (4.8 oz + 4 AAA batteries) camera (DXG 506V) that is velcro'ed to the deck just behind the seat. An alternative that I have considered, but never tried, is a PDA suction-cup mount to the canopy. At any rate, do make sure its secure.

[PunkRockJimmy]

i like that pzl in front ... ^^ pretty nice aircraft made in gdr

[Pilnowac]

that doot doot song is from the variometer ...that instrument shows you visuell and with a doot doot voice how you climb or you decent.

[djgregbrowne]

talking to yourself is the first sign of madness! ha ha

nice video!

[glallee]

Thanks. I'd call it the second sign. Trying to sustain flight without an engine is probably the first. (The running commentary is just to help me with flight analysis afterwards.)

[euromarkus]

Do you wear a chutte?

[glallee]

Not yet. It is required for contests and when you do aerobatics (>60 degrees of bank or >30 degrees of pitch) which I'm not ready for, yet.

[swfrx]

I don't fit without a parachute - and in the UK we almost always wear them. The only guy I've seen fly without was because he is so tall it was the only way he fitted in. Our club has enough chutes for all the seats in the club gliders plus a spare to allow for one being away being repacked. They live in a parachute room which is slightly heated, to keep it dry.

[glallee]

For now, parachutes are personal, not club equipment. That may change when the FAA completes its review of packing inspection frequency and the cost gets cut in half in the US. When you work up to contest flying, the parachute is mandatory, so most club members already own their own.

[princo85]

i'm from Poland and i'm flying at Junior to. Your landing was bad! jou landing to one point

[glallee]

Certainly could have been better. Was practicing touchdown at the edge of the field ("Short Landing" at 7:54) on purpose. The turn to final was completed 50' low and then had to trade speed for descent rate to make it (pulled nose up and dropped to 50 knots on final). Touch down was ~ 100'down the field from the threshold. Like it says above, the point of filming is to critique them and get better.

[euromarkus]

What is that doot-doot-doot-doot sound -- stall alarm?

[glallee]

Its from the vertical speed indicator (total energy probe, Vario). It beeps when its positive (up) and the pitch of the beep is in proportion to the amount of lift. You don't hear it on tow, because I had it turned off until after the end of the tow.

[hrc1966]

Even though he has check lists, things could be safer. He corrects the belts

several times indicating that they are way too loose. And then he checks the

rudders after OK to tow. That was brilliant!

I could do the same kind of flying (in OY-land: "6 power plant"-day). Boring.

I don't need to confirm landing procedure with a check list. Procedure's on my

spine and doable in sleep. And he is low on the final turn. Good thing there are no

trees to add wind gradient to the decent.

[glallee]

Most of your observations are spot on, which is why I started filming. Was unaware of the belts; now I cinch them up. Low on purpose to work that kind of landing. After review, changed to more spoiler & steeper approach. Memorized checklists are a known hazard & Gliders are the only category of aircraft where its still in common use.

Finally, the rudder wag is not a check; it IS the visual signal to tow.

[hrc1966]

Then I apology. The reason I wrote was the illogical rudder check that sprang into my eyes. It's a vital part of our procedure as we much oftener assembly the planes.

In Denmark thermal winds is a luxury so landing out is quite normal.

[sosapilot]

Yay, go juniors, that's what I fly at the moment!

[Northside777]

Thanks for the ride! Gliders are the essence or real flying skill.