@DavidForthoffer actually, the newscast specifically said that it probably won't hold up in court. And they are correct in that. In fact I'd be highly surprised if they DA even filed charges.
@DavidForthoffer and in fact a little googling finds that yes, the DA did not file charges, stating it was a civil matter, not criminal. This isn't theft. It's contract issue.
@theistus: You must be reading different stories than I just read. I read that the POLICE decided to drop charges, saying it should be handled civilly, not criminally. That's not the same as saying it WAS a civil matter. More likely, the police thought they'd get too much bad publicity.
It IS a crime in Pennsylvania to leave without fully paying for your food in a restaurant—Pennsylvania statute 18-3926.
@DavidForthoffer a, but see they DID pay for the food. They just didn't tip. A tip is a gratuity. And the statute you mentioned is silent in such cases. If you can offer case law that expands the statute to cover gratuities, feel free. The entire purpose of tipping is to help ensure good service. If service is poor, there's no point in tipping. District Attorney John Morganelli said Pope and her friend were right and recommended to Bethlehem police that the charges against the couple be dropped,
@theistus: YOU cite a source that says "District Attorney John Morganelli said Pope and her friend were right". You can't find it. It didn't happen.
Part of the reason the POLICE decided to drop the charges was because it seems the restaurant charged the couple with MORE THAN 18% mandatory gratuity.
@DavidForthoffer I would post the link to the article, but youtube doesn't allow external links. But rest assured, the article I quoted from is on nbcphiladelphia website. regardless, it's academic anyway. Police can send the case to the DA or not. The DA can choose to pursue the case, or not. (Source: I used to be a DA, and am a criminal law attorney). Either way charges were dropped because it was deemed not to be a criminal matter. Which is the point.
@theistus: No, the article you "quoted" is NOT on the nbcphiladelphia web site. THAT site has exactly one article on this topic. Here is a quote: “It would not be the kind of case that should be processed criminally, Morganelli told the paper. “It was one of those matters that should be processed civilly.”
There is a vast difference betwen "it was a civil matter" and "should be processed civilly".
@DavidForthoffer Go to the bottom of the article, click the link for the update to the article. Seriously I'm not making this up. it's on their website. The quote I gave is in the update.
@theistus: Concerning your mis-quotes, I tried to post to your channel with URLs, but I cannot tell whether it took.
Summary: I WAS looking at the updated page. It did NOT say "it was a civil matter". It did NOT say "District Attorney John Morganelli said Pope and her friend were right".
@DavidForthoffer I've also taken the liberty of looking up the statute you mentioned on Lexis Nexis, and can find no case law regarding the applicability of the statute to gratuities, or even restaurants in general. In fact, almost all of it regards diverting public or private utilities (gas, electric, cable, etc,).
@theistus: Considering the relatively miniscule dollar amounts at stake in restaurant bill disputes, I'd be surprised if ANY dispute made it to the appellate level in ANY state. I'll bet the dollar amounts in all of the cases you found far exceeded $100.
On the other hand, Googling "theft of services" with "restaurant" gets about 481,000 hits. THAT seems to be a lot hotter topic than theft of services at a restaurant at the appellate court level.
@DavidForthoffer "hits" do not equal proof. Show me proof that the courts would consider this a criminal matter. All you have done so far is argue in conclusory fashion. The statute you gave does not address gratuities, and no court has interpreted as applying to same in any published decision (hint: not only appellate courts publish decisions). This would make a good moot court case, I may even suggest it, though. But in the mean time this is all just academics. The DA/Cops dropped the charges.
@DavidForthoffer That section 18-3296(a)(4), is talking about the presumption of mens rea. It does not mention gratuities. Courts that have addressed similar issues in other states have said that by definition a gratuity or tip is a gift, and not mandatory. However, if the words "service charge" are used it may well be a very different matter. However, when it is listed as a "service charge" the restaurant also has no obligation to give it to the server, as it is no longer a gratuity or tip.
@DavidForthoffer If you are going to make legal arguments, you have to read the entire statute, in context. You can't just see the word "restaurant" and start making conclusion about what it means. Actually, your better bet would be 3296(a)(1) to make your argument on. But as I explained below, courts that have addressed it found that a "gratuity" by it's definition, could not be enforceable in these circumstances, but that "service charges" could be. Even so, the intent and scienter must be met
@theistus: You're going off-topic by saying that courts that have addressed it found that a "gratuity" by it's definition, could not be enforceable in these circumstances. What matters is not "gratuity", but "mandatory gratuity". One could just as well say that "mandatory" by its definition is required.
You have not found influential courts addressing mandatory gratuities in restaurants.
And why do you think intent and scienter are an issue here?
@DavidForthoffer Intent is an issue in ALL theft cases. Intent is also specifically invoked by the statute. Scienter is an issue because the statute specifically mentions the word "knowingly." 3296(a)(1). The accused's state of mind and perception of facts are thus critical elements the prosecution must meet. And how courts have defined the word "mandatory gratuity" is directly on point, because they found that by using the "gratuity" it could not then be "mandatory" in NY, CA, and many states.
@theistus: Right. But how is scienter an ISSUE in this case?
The couple knowingly left without paying the mandatory gratuity. There's no dispute about scienter. Scienter is an element in this case, not an issue.
Please mail me the cites to those many cases where the courts found that by using the "gratuity" it could not be "mandatory". Since I'm a photographer it should be easy to find me.
@DavidForthoffer Courts will often go to the dictionary (regular or Black's Legal) for definitions if a word is not defined by statute, and it is extremely hard to get a court to adopt a definition that is not either defined by statute or the dictionary. It was for that very reason that courts in CA, NY, etc., found that a "mandatory gratuity" was in fact not mandatory. Penn courts have not addressed this issue, but it is the case in every state it has been considered, afaik.
@theistus: If you use Google Scholar to search all text for "mandatory gratuity" among all legal opinions and journals, you will find 19 hits where the courts ruled that restaurants must pay sales tax on mandatory gratuity (as well as income tax), because mandatory gratuities are part of the sales price. Ordinary gratuities are subject only to personal income tax. The courts seem to be unanimous on this. This is soooo not an issue to the courts.
@theistus: The point of the 19 hits for "mandatory gratuity" is that mandatory gratuities are not tips at all. They are part of the sales price of the food.
That means that if a restaurant customer does not pay the "mandatory gratuity", then that customer has violated Pennsylvania Statute 18-3926, and may properly be charged as criminal behavior.
@DavidForthoffer Interesting argument, but you are still making a leap from tax law to criminal law. to be sure failure to pay taxes can lead to criminal charges in some circumstances. But it is not at all clear from either the statute or the case law that failure to pay a gratuity (which is by definition a gift) is covered. Certainly failure to pay for food would be, however. I can tell you with certainty that in New York and California, "mandatory" gratuities are NOT covered criminally. Con't
@DavidForthoffer The reason that is so is because regardless of whether the menu or bill says "mandatory" the law does not recognize a property ownership interest in the gratuity, because it is a gift. No property interest may accrue until a gift is actually made. Rather, the courts have said that there may (or may not) be a contract formed once you have ordered. Contracts are not pursued criminally, they are a matter for civil courts.
I won't pay tips, If bad service. Pay the dang people real wages . I have produced more food for a hungry world than 95% of people in world . No tips . Low wages in food processing industry . No really good mom and pop dining left to speak of . So screw paying TIPS . Diner owners pay better wages . charge higher pricies . I will not pay TIPs anymore . It cost me and wife $15 to eat at fast food . Who give better service and NO TIPS.
People dont seem to understand that servers make $2.00 an hour, which is usually taxed based on your overall SALES (Not Tips). Most servers get $0.00 checks and rely solely off tips. You have to give a part of your tips to the busser, bartender, and sometimes hosts. When people dont tip, you honestly are making someone pay to be your slave for an hour. If you dont want tip then get fast food, or carry out.
@lyniseloveschipper: Although I sympathize with much of what you say, people who don't tip do NOT honestly make someone pay to be your slave for an hour. That's like saying that failing to pay a kidnapper's demands causes the hostage's death. No, it is the KIDNAPPER who causes the hostage's death. Similarly, it is the RESTAURANT (etc.) that bears the ultimate responsibility for low pay for waitresses.
As a former waitress I can't stand people who don't tip. People don't seem to get that waitstaff are paid LESS than minimum wage because they are EXPECTED to make up the rest of their income in TIPS. I worked for $2 an hour as a cocktail waitress. I had to split my tips with the bus boy and give 10% of my liquor sales to the bartender. I walked out after a 10 hour shift with $20 sometimes because of idiots who thinking tipping is voluntary. I tip 15% for ok service & 20%+ for great service.
@Gabosity: My sympathies. I think waiters/waitresses are cheated in that way. Instead of paying $2 an hour, they ought to pay minimum wage and make up the difference in anticipated tips. For example, if minimum wage were $8.50 an hour, then the first $6.50 in tips would go to the establishment, and the rest would go to you and the busboy. That would encourage them to run a quality establishment, too.
It's the entitlement mentality. They feel they are entitled to the tip just because they were there. Gratuity is used to give servers the incentive to give good service. If I were that couple, after I won that court case, I would sue the living hell out of the establishment for false arrest, harrassment, or whatever else my lawyer could come up with. A gratuity is voluntary, and I tend to be a big tipper, always have been, because it's a hard job, that pays under the normal minimum wage,
@179178: No. They feel they are entitled to the tip because the customers AGREED in advance to pay the 18% tip for parties of six or more. Such a "tip" is effectively part of the price. If they thought the price was too high, they should have gone elsewhere.
If you had sued, you would have lost. The law is on the restaurant's side.
Save your arguments for restaurants that do not have a "mandatory gratuity".
@PwnStar1991 because there are plenty of reasons besides ur meal being on ur head to not tip... If the service is complete shit or if ur server is being a smartass, or if in this case they try to fuck you out of money
Wow!! I tip, but if you service sucks, I will not tip a penny. This isn't even going to holdup in court. Some cops are pretty stupid and uneducated, most don't even know the law and think they are the law because they are a cop. That officer probably don't even know the meaning of gratuity. Gratuity means something given without claim or demand. The freaking restaurant is demanding them to pay. Do they not understand what the word GRATUITY means!!
What a load of crap. Everyone has been served by rude a server before or gotten terrible service. The restaurants are paying staff less counting these tips. The business is earning more here, not servers.
What the fuck, if you are going to make tipping mandatory, you might as well increase the price of the food and pay the employees more accordingly. Otherwise it undermines the entire concept of a tip.
This sounds stupid. This restaurant is full of crooks. Gratuity is based on service. You cannot put a gun on a customer. I would sue the department and the restaurant. If I am offered a second glass of water or coffee and I am given the " good morning " or " hello " salute, if I feel I am welcome and the service is prompt and clean of course I will tip.
I knew this person who worked at a restaurant as a waiter. one night he served a table of 30 porch monkey big lipped niggers. he served them for two hours took up most of his night. they falsely complained to the manager that he did something he did not. he did not get any money for serving those darkies. if you were a waiter you would change your tunes. I agree with the waiter and the police 100%
@scrambledpenis If he behaved like you, he probably did not deserve to get tipped. Your friend needs to accept that he is a waiter and nothing more. The idea of serving those that he "feels superior to" probably hurts his ego. It was probably written all over his face while he was serving them. That's tough. Maybe he should change careers.
Theonlybandever1000. No waitresses do not get a paycheck they get a piece of paper that says this not a check attatched to a paystub. Most places, the place I work included, require the server to claim 15/20% of the total check regardless of the actual amount of the tip. This is how taxes are paid by the server. Therefore, the server in this situation would have had to pay around five dollars to uncle sam for these customers arrogance. If you actually believe that the waiter/waitress is the onl
I hate the people that try to pretend this is the Police's fault. You clearly know nothing about government, because a Police officer is a job, that responds to government law.
Blaming this on a police officer is like blaming a McDonalds worker for the prices being too high.
Learn your facts before you bother the rest of the competant minded beings.
The newscaster on the far left is the only competent one in that room... The other guy is a fucking idiot saying that "they would have to pour my meal on my head for me to not tip" what a jackass
The USA is a freaking police state. When are you people going to wake up ? I don't "eat out" anymore, just the thought of what some nasty chefs put in the food in revenge...lol.
You can't demand that a person give something of their own free will. If it's demanded; then it's not gratuitous. That's like forcing someone to volunteer. If they're forced then it's not volunteering.
1st, I would not pay a fine for this "infraction". 2nd and most important, I would quit eating at that restaurant. In a capitalist society your spending ability is your authority. Last but not least, if it's mandatory it shouldn't be called a gratuity. ATTENTION: This is only an opinion.
Please watch my story "TIFFANY LEBOUEF SEEKS JUSTICE" They hid my only evidence and lied about it then they made me "TAKE THE DEAL" or go to Prison for 9 + yrs. This is crazy shit. They have given me 2 strikes and one more brush with the law of any kind will send me to "PRISON FOR LIFE"..... HELP MEEEEEEEE
IF you can't or won't tip then don't eat out. If the services is so bad that you think you don't have to tip then leave and/or tell the manager. But the server has nothing to do with things like how the food tastes or how long it takes or if there are clean dishes to give you.
No! You greedy bastards. I will tip what is earned, if you incorporate mandatory gratuity... Then screw you, and if you didnt earn it, i'm not paying it.
@huntingtonbeachify Fire the police for doing his job??? Its not police officers fault, hes told by the government to take that action... Get it together you idiot...
@FenerbahceSK7584 A city policeman taking orders from the government? Do you understand that defeats the purpose of having states? I guess you like the one world government?
The charge will never stick. A required payment isn't a gratuity. A required payment to a waitperson should be called a service charge. The couple should have walked out without paying anything. A business that calls itself a restaurant is implicitly claiming that customers will get both good food and good service. The couple just didn't get what the restaurant offered to provide and was trying to charge them for, and so should have paid nothing.
Wow... What have society gone to? A tip is basically an appreciation for excellent service. People need to understand that they need to go beyond their normal service. Why do they even need to have a GOOD REASON not to tip? If they felt that the waiter did not go over and beyond their job expectation: (Example) getting customer order and relaying to cook and carrying out the order.
This society is becoming pathetic. Mandatory tip? Tip is something you EARN! its not automatic.
@F3rgo666 In that case you may want to put visiting America forward in your schedule a bit. I've been to around 30 different countries, and practically everywhere I've been, tipping percentages are not only ridiculously higher, they're also more readily enforced.
More importantly, this isn't exactly a tip per se. If nothing else, they've raised the price of service and slapped a "this is sorta gratuity" charge on the bill. A bit deceptive, but it isn't gratituity really, it's a charge.
@FenerbahceSK7584 Sir the menu is not law and nor can it be held as such in any State. Gratuity is just that in itself...I am happy with whatever the service is....If Iam unhappy I can actually refuse the entire meal because it was not what I ordered or was led to believe as per the advertisement provided by the resturant. This can then be construed false advertesment. Above all I could give a rats ass on your position in life...if I am paying for it then I get what I asked for
@MrBRITBRIGHT well then when you receive your meal and its not what u wanted, then u can leave the food on the table and refuse to pay and leave. Once you sit there and down the entire meal then you cant refuse shit... If the owner says, theres mandatory gratuity and your cheap ass dont feel like paying for it then take your fat ass to mcdonalds, they dont take tips there..
I would say they won't be going back, or anyone else watching this. Lehigh Pub, 4 E 4th St, Bethlehem, PA. According to what I found on the net, it's now closed anyway.
@wayneogden The fact that they are out of business demonstrates what the public thought of their mandatory gratuity and the rest of their shitty restaurant. The only thing "mandatory" about this restaurant is FAIL!!
I got chased out of a restaurant in Times Square because my $15 tip only worked out about 10% of the bill; they were looking for 20% and I told the waiter and manager to fuck off or I would take the 15 bucks back as well. Good old NYC.
I hate the way American women whine and speak from their nose when they complain. As an American, I never noticed this when I lived in the U.S. As an American who works around other nationalities in another country, and after watching this video and listening to the way that woman complains, yeah. My Scottish friend pointed this out, so true. Whine, nasal tone of voice, whatever. Hate me for it.
If the service was that bad I wouldn't have tipped, with money. But i would draw a funny picture on a napkin with a note saying "This tip is equal to your service"
funny seeing a few people on here say "well it was part of the bill". shut the fuck up, getting arrested for not paying a tip is a fucking joke. I could care what the law is, most people have enough common sense not to ever do something so egregious. What the hell were the cops smoking?!
This is a joke! USA please take note from the rest of the world...pay the full minimum wage so people dont have to tip. Im from England and im always in the US, the whole tip thing is a scam. When you get in a Luxury black taxi in London you pay the driver to drive by the meter and thats it. When you get a scabby New york cab you pay the driver to drive by the meter and then you tip him for?...driving well?... huh? how do i know hes drove well? london cab drivers also drive well im sure....CON!
STUPID F-ing cops. Don't they have real crimes to solve and criminals to arrest???!!! I know some wait persons who say if they know there is a required gratuity they slack off on the service because they know they are getting a required tip.
why are people so dumb? They were arrested for not paying the full bill. They said in this video the 18% was added to the bill. The couple deducted the 18%. That is the issue
@aescbrya The full bill included an optional portion called the gratuity. If it wasn't optional it shouldn't be called "gratuity." Even by claiming it was a "mandatory gratuity" it still was optional by the mere fact that it was a called a gratuity. The original of gratuity: French gratuité, from Old French gratuite, from Medieval Latin grtuts, probably from Latin grtutus, voluntary; see gratuitous.
So clearly the police have no idea about what the law is. Good News. You can now become a police officer by filling out a coupon on your supermarket receipt.
This will be laughed out of court. A gratuity, by definition, is optional. You cannot make it mandatory and still call it a gratuity. By calling it that, the restaurant told the customers that if they were unsatisfied with the service, they could leave it out of the bill. If they had called it something other than gratuity, for example, a "service fee," then that's different. This has gone to court already in the past, and the court supported the customer.
@Ericwvb2: The English meaning of words sometimes differ from the legal meaning. If a menu says that a "mandatory gratuity" will be added to all bills for parties of at least six, then the menu is defining "mandatory gratuity". If a customer accepts the proffered contract (by ordering food), then the customer is bound by the terms of the contract, with consequences as may be enforced by state law, such as California Penal Code 537.
@Ericwvb2: Without a cite to the court case, your claim of "the court determined" is no more authoritative than "I said".
For all we know, you may have left out critical details such as whether the "mandatory gratuity" was on the menu (versus just the bill), or what state law said, or whether one side screwed up.
The origin of "mandatory": "of the nature of a mandate". "Mandate": c.1500 from Latin mandatum, "commission, order".
Two conflicting words does not imply YOUR meaning.
@DavidForthoffer Google "A Mandatory Gratuity Is Just a Tip, and Thus Not Mandatory, a Prosecutor Says" I didn't make it up. This was in New York, and the DA determined that a MANDATORY GRATUITY is still a gratuity and optional. It was the EXACT same case as this one -- There was a mandatory 18% gratuity and they left less -- they were arrested and the DA dropped the charges when it came to court and declined to prosecute.
@Ericwvb2: What is your point? That a D.A. establishes law, along with newscasters?
That is not the way our judicial system works. The COURT interprets law as applied to particular facts (as possibly assessed by a jury), subject to review by higher courts. The D.A. could have had any of many reasons for not prosecuting, including the desire to expend precious D.A. resources on bigger crimes. That's why LOOKING AT THE COURT OPINION is so important. Your news story is meaningless.
@DavidForthoffer Note that the charges have been DROPPED in this case, just like the New York case I was talking about. Just like the New York case, the DA dropped the charges because they knew they did not have a case. If this was so clear, you'd think at least one DA would take it to trial. Gratuity means optional and mandatory means the opposite, therefore it is not clear contract law when you write "mandatory gratuity" a bill.
@DavidForthoffer And you are absolutely correct, the courts have not (as far as I know) ruled on this yet. However, the reluctance of two DAs in two different states to prosecute shows that they aren't thrilled at their chances of winning a case like this.
@Ericwvb2: The reluctance of two DAs in two different states to prosecute shows that typicall-understaffed District Attorney offices are more inclined to put their scarce resources where it takes a bigger bite out of crime.
The 18 hits in Google Scholar for "mandatory gratuity" among all legal opinions and journals wherein it was generally included with the price shows that the concept is well-known and settled in our judicial system.
Im torn on this one. As a server I feel for those who get stiffed because most of us work very hard for that money. Where I work and quite a few other states, I only make $2.13/hr so my tips ARE my check. When I get stiffed it really makes a difference. On the other hand, getting horrible service sucks too. But unless the server is rude or something, most of the problems (long wait to be seated, long wait for food, dirty dinning room, poor food quality, etc.) is not the servers fault.
@TheLostComments servers dont get paid minimum wage dude, the tips are considered part of their pay, and so a exception is made and employers dont have to pay the employees that are servers minimum wage. $2.13 sounds right for what servers get paid per hour, which is why u should always tip.
@MrSpukinator This is a joke! USA please take note from the rest of the world...pay the full minimum wage so people dont have to tip. Im from England and im always in the US, the whole tip thing is a scam. When you get in a Luxury black taxi in London you pay the driver to drive by the meter and thats it. When you get a scabby New york cab you pay the driver to drive by the meter and then you tip him for?..driving well?..huh? how do i know hes drove well? london cab drivers also drive well CON!
I’m not American. But technically speaking, if the so-called gratuity, tips, or anything else to that effect, is required to be met by laws, then that’s the way it is. BUT, personally speaking, whether it is not (quoting) “mandatory” by customs (?) [as opposed to the laws(?)], if you are reasonably unhappy with the service, then, IMO, you don’t need to tip. And from a customer’s POV, at the end of the day; EITHER way, the restaurant might lose more than gain (for not willing to let go).
@jaketribb43 well i guess thats a new slick way of bypassing laws and norms, by listing gratuity as a "item".. well i still dont think gratuity is an "item" and if there is no clear law there needs to be that says you cannot do this. either way, gratuity is clear enough that its not an "item" like a door charge for example. grautity is definted as discretionary payment for services and cannot be treated as an "item" legally.
banking and corporate CEOs have been doing this with "bonuses" for many decades. the business of forced "gratuities" begs the question of whether or not these numbers are added to the day's gross receipts and used for tax purposes. a tip is for good service alone.
gratuity is optional, if a restaurant adds it to a bill, im sorry but thats not appropriate nor legal. if the police are stupid enough to charge someone for this, it will be dismissed. just dont eat at places with automatic gratuity.
I called the police once because someone broke into my apartment and stole everything and you know what they told me? "Theft is a civil matter. There's nothing we can do."
Municipal law enforcement is a broken system full of broken people. Maybe they'd have come and taken a report for my insurance company (that's right - renter's insurance doesn't pay if you can't get a police report, so the police make that useless) if I'd offered them the opportunity to rape me or something.
What an epic battle between these two extremely experienced court veterans! Veterans of charity, I'd say.
Zulanus 2 hours ago
WOW somewhere along the line people forgot what T.I.P.S. stand for !!!! FYI it's meaning in
To Insure Prompt Service... just saying
rowbot99 1 week ago
That would be a contract claim, not a criminal violation.
theistus 1 week ago
@theistus: This state made that behavior a crime. MANY states make it a crime to leave a restaurant without paying the entire bill.
DavidForthoffer 1 week ago
@DavidForthoffer actually, the newscast specifically said that it probably won't hold up in court. And they are correct in that. In fact I'd be highly surprised if they DA even filed charges.
theistus 3 days ago
@DavidForthoffer and in fact a little googling finds that yes, the DA did not file charges, stating it was a civil matter, not criminal. This isn't theft. It's contract issue.
theistus 3 days ago
@theistus: You must be reading different stories than I just read. I read that the POLICE decided to drop charges, saying it should be handled civilly, not criminally. That's not the same as saying it WAS a civil matter. More likely, the police thought they'd get too much bad publicity.
It IS a crime in Pennsylvania to leave without fully paying for your food in a restaurant—Pennsylvania statute 18-3926.
DavidForthoffer 3 days ago
@DavidForthoffer a, but see they DID pay for the food. They just didn't tip. A tip is a gratuity. And the statute you mentioned is silent in such cases. If you can offer case law that expands the statute to cover gratuities, feel free. The entire purpose of tipping is to help ensure good service. If service is poor, there's no point in tipping. District Attorney John Morganelli said Pope and her friend were right and recommended to Bethlehem police that the charges against the couple be dropped,
theistus 1 day ago
@theistus: YOU cite a source that says "District Attorney John Morganelli said Pope and her friend were right". You can't find it. It didn't happen.
Part of the reason the POLICE decided to drop the charges was because it seems the restaurant charged the couple with MORE THAN 18% mandatory gratuity.
DavidForthoffer 1 day ago
@DavidForthoffer I would post the link to the article, but youtube doesn't allow external links. But rest assured, the article I quoted from is on nbcphiladelphia website. regardless, it's academic anyway. Police can send the case to the DA or not. The DA can choose to pursue the case, or not. (Source: I used to be a DA, and am a criminal law attorney). Either way charges were dropped because it was deemed not to be a criminal matter. Which is the point.
theistus 1 day ago
@theistus: No, the article you "quoted" is NOT on the nbcphiladelphia web site. THAT site has exactly one article on this topic. Here is a quote: “It would not be the kind of case that should be processed criminally, Morganelli told the paper. “It was one of those matters that should be processed civilly.”
There is a vast difference betwen "it was a civil matter" and "should be processed civilly".
DavidForthoffer 1 day ago
@DavidForthoffer Go to the bottom of the article, click the link for the update to the article. Seriously I'm not making this up. it's on their website. The quote I gave is in the update.
theistus 1 day ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@theistus: Concerning your mis-quotes, I tried to post to your channel with URLs, but I cannot tell whether it took.
Summary: I WAS looking at the updated page. It did NOT say "it was a civil matter". It did NOT say "District Attorney John Morganelli said Pope and her friend were right".
DavidForthoffer 23 hours ago
@DavidForthoffer I've also taken the liberty of looking up the statute you mentioned on Lexis Nexis, and can find no case law regarding the applicability of the statute to gratuities, or even restaurants in general. In fact, almost all of it regards diverting public or private utilities (gas, electric, cable, etc,).
theistus 1 day ago
@theistus: Considering the relatively miniscule dollar amounts at stake in restaurant bill disputes, I'd be surprised if ANY dispute made it to the appellate level in ANY state. I'll bet the dollar amounts in all of the cases you found far exceeded $100.
On the other hand, Googling "theft of services" with "restaurant" gets about 481,000 hits. THAT seems to be a lot hotter topic than theft of services at a restaurant at the appellate court level.
DavidForthoffer 1 day ago
@DavidForthoffer "hits" do not equal proof. Show me proof that the courts would consider this a criminal matter. All you have done so far is argue in conclusory fashion. The statute you gave does not address gratuities, and no court has interpreted as applying to same in any published decision (hint: not only appellate courts publish decisions). This would make a good moot court case, I may even suggest it, though. But in the mean time this is all just academics. The DA/Cops dropped the charges.
theistus 1 day ago
@theistus: You said you can find no case law regarding the applicability of Pennsylvania Statute 18-3926 to restaurants in general.
Well, since the plain language of 18-3926(a)(4) SAYS "restaurants", why would that ever be in issue in court?
DavidForthoffer 23 hours ago
@DavidForthoffer That section 18-3296(a)(4), is talking about the presumption of mens rea. It does not mention gratuities. Courts that have addressed similar issues in other states have said that by definition a gratuity or tip is a gift, and not mandatory. However, if the words "service charge" are used it may well be a very different matter. However, when it is listed as a "service charge" the restaurant also has no obligation to give it to the server, as it is no longer a gratuity or tip.
theistus 23 hours ago
@DavidForthoffer If you are going to make legal arguments, you have to read the entire statute, in context. You can't just see the word "restaurant" and start making conclusion about what it means. Actually, your better bet would be 3296(a)(1) to make your argument on. But as I explained below, courts that have addressed it found that a "gratuity" by it's definition, could not be enforceable in these circumstances, but that "service charges" could be. Even so, the intent and scienter must be met
theistus 23 hours ago
@theistus: You're going off-topic by saying that courts that have addressed it found that a "gratuity" by it's definition, could not be enforceable in these circumstances. What matters is not "gratuity", but "mandatory gratuity". One could just as well say that "mandatory" by its definition is required.
You have not found influential courts addressing mandatory gratuities in restaurants.
And why do you think intent and scienter are an issue here?
DavidForthoffer 23 hours ago
@DavidForthoffer Intent is an issue in ALL theft cases. Intent is also specifically invoked by the statute. Scienter is an issue because the statute specifically mentions the word "knowingly." 3296(a)(1). The accused's state of mind and perception of facts are thus critical elements the prosecution must meet. And how courts have defined the word "mandatory gratuity" is directly on point, because they found that by using the "gratuity" it could not then be "mandatory" in NY, CA, and many states.
theistus 23 hours ago
@theistus: Right. But how is scienter an ISSUE in this case?
The couple knowingly left without paying the mandatory gratuity. There's no dispute about scienter. Scienter is an element in this case, not an issue.
Please mail me the cites to those many cases where the courts found that by using the "gratuity" it could not be "mandatory". Since I'm a photographer it should be easy to find me.
DavidForthoffer 22 hours ago
@DavidForthoffer Courts will often go to the dictionary (regular or Black's Legal) for definitions if a word is not defined by statute, and it is extremely hard to get a court to adopt a definition that is not either defined by statute or the dictionary. It was for that very reason that courts in CA, NY, etc., found that a "mandatory gratuity" was in fact not mandatory. Penn courts have not addressed this issue, but it is the case in every state it has been considered, afaik.
theistus 22 hours ago
@theistus: If you use Google Scholar to search all text for "mandatory gratuity" among all legal opinions and journals, you will find 19 hits where the courts ruled that restaurants must pay sales tax on mandatory gratuity (as well as income tax), because mandatory gratuities are part of the sales price. Ordinary gratuities are subject only to personal income tax. The courts seem to be unanimous on this. This is soooo not an issue to the courts.
DavidForthoffer 1 day ago
@DavidForthoffer interesting, but entirely off topic as to whether failure to tip may properly be charged as criminal behavior.
theistus 1 day ago
@theistus: The point of the 19 hits for "mandatory gratuity" is that mandatory gratuities are not tips at all. They are part of the sales price of the food.
That means that if a restaurant customer does not pay the "mandatory gratuity", then that customer has violated Pennsylvania Statute 18-3926, and may properly be charged as criminal behavior.
DavidForthoffer 1 day ago
@DavidForthoffer Interesting argument, but you are still making a leap from tax law to criminal law. to be sure failure to pay taxes can lead to criminal charges in some circumstances. But it is not at all clear from either the statute or the case law that failure to pay a gratuity (which is by definition a gift) is covered. Certainly failure to pay for food would be, however. I can tell you with certainty that in New York and California, "mandatory" gratuities are NOT covered criminally. Con't
theistus 1 day ago
@DavidForthoffer The reason that is so is because regardless of whether the menu or bill says "mandatory" the law does not recognize a property ownership interest in the gratuity, because it is a gift. No property interest may accrue until a gift is actually made. Rather, the courts have said that there may (or may not) be a contract formed once you have ordered. Contracts are not pursued criminally, they are a matter for civil courts.
theistus 1 day ago
I won't pay tips, If bad service. Pay the dang people real wages . I have produced more food for a hungry world than 95% of people in world . No tips . Low wages in food processing industry . No really good mom and pop dining left to speak of . So screw paying TIPS . Diner owners pay better wages . charge higher pricies . I will not pay TIPs anymore . It cost me and wife $15 to eat at fast food . Who give better service and NO TIPS.
Nemesis1ism 1 week ago
People dont seem to understand that servers make $2.00 an hour, which is usually taxed based on your overall SALES (Not Tips). Most servers get $0.00 checks and rely solely off tips. You have to give a part of your tips to the busser, bartender, and sometimes hosts. When people dont tip, you honestly are making someone pay to be your slave for an hour. If you dont want tip then get fast food, or carry out.
lyniseloveschipper 2 weeks ago
@lyniseloveschipper: Although I sympathize with much of what you say, people who don't tip do NOT honestly make someone pay to be your slave for an hour. That's like saying that failing to pay a kidnapper's demands causes the hostage's death. No, it is the KIDNAPPER who causes the hostage's death. Similarly, it is the RESTAURANT (etc.) that bears the ultimate responsibility for low pay for waitresses.
DavidForthoffer 2 weeks ago
As a former waitress I can't stand people who don't tip. People don't seem to get that waitstaff are paid LESS than minimum wage because they are EXPECTED to make up the rest of their income in TIPS. I worked for $2 an hour as a cocktail waitress. I had to split my tips with the bus boy and give 10% of my liquor sales to the bartender. I walked out after a 10 hour shift with $20 sometimes because of idiots who thinking tipping is voluntary. I tip 15% for ok service & 20%+ for great service.
Gabosity 3 weeks ago
@Gabosity: My sympathies. I think waiters/waitresses are cheated in that way. Instead of paying $2 an hour, they ought to pay minimum wage and make up the difference in anticipated tips. For example, if minimum wage were $8.50 an hour, then the first $6.50 in tips would go to the establishment, and the rest would go to you and the busboy. That would encourage them to run a quality establishment, too.
DavidForthoffer 3 weeks ago
It's the entitlement mentality. They feel they are entitled to the tip just because they were there. Gratuity is used to give servers the incentive to give good service. If I were that couple, after I won that court case, I would sue the living hell out of the establishment for false arrest, harrassment, or whatever else my lawyer could come up with. A gratuity is voluntary, and I tend to be a big tipper, always have been, because it's a hard job, that pays under the normal minimum wage,
179178 1 month ago
@179178: No. They feel they are entitled to the tip because the customers AGREED in advance to pay the 18% tip for parties of six or more. Such a "tip" is effectively part of the price. If they thought the price was too high, they should have gone elsewhere.
If you had sued, you would have lost. The law is on the restaurant's side.
Save your arguments for restaurants that do not have a "mandatory gratuity".
DavidForthoffer 1 month ago
1 hour wait ...
fl3162 1 month ago
I never tip! even if its great service!!
BestYogscastMoments 1 month ago
@PwnStar1991 because there are plenty of reasons besides ur meal being on ur head to not tip... If the service is complete shit or if ur server is being a smartass, or if in this case they try to fuck you out of money
HoookahMick 1 month ago
I thought the bus boy cleaned up the table not the waitress? Well, I guess in some places the waitress will clean up.
Gratuity should not be mandatory either. that's a joke.
gullabulldeath 1 month ago
It was part of the bill, gratuity will never be part of a bill!! BS!!
ant813 1 month ago
Oh one more thing. This restaurant can go to hell!!
ant813 1 month ago
Wow!! I tip, but if you service sucks, I will not tip a penny. This isn't even going to holdup in court. Some cops are pretty stupid and uneducated, most don't even know the law and think they are the law because they are a cop. That officer probably don't even know the meaning of gratuity. Gratuity means something given without claim or demand. The freaking restaurant is demanding them to pay. Do they not understand what the word GRATUITY means!!
ant813 1 month ago
Here's a restaurant that really understands well how to grow their business.
How much business are they going to lose over that $16?
Geniuses.
Koldkut09 1 month ago
putting tip to bill is fucking retarded gay faggotry and people should be burned like witches for that, my 2 cents :)
ShitCrap 1 month ago
and it ALL will get worse if you dont get Ron Paul elected , wake up America
buzzbox2nd 1 month ago
What a load of crap. Everyone has been served by rude a server before or gotten terrible service. The restaurants are paying staff less counting these tips. The business is earning more here, not servers.
gtechie 1 month ago
Sounds like legalized extortion to me. The cops probably will start asking for tips too.
BADDOOKUS 1 month ago 5
What the fuck, if you are going to make tipping mandatory, you might as well increase the price of the food and pay the employees more accordingly. Otherwise it undermines the entire concept of a tip.
turquoiseguy 1 month ago
I love how they have like a little stoner conversation after the interviews are over lol.
mydaddyatemyeyes 1 month ago
@whereeaglesfly100 Go kill yourself, redneck filth. You're stinking up the world.
JimboUSofA 1 month ago
@whereeaglesfly100 Go fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw, trailer park filth.
JimboUSofA 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@whereeaglesfly100 nope never worked at a restaurant in my entire life but try again...
FenerbahceSK7584 1 month ago
Comment removed
FenerbahceSK7584 1 month ago
Only In America
paul1967uk 1 month ago
This sounds stupid. This restaurant is full of crooks. Gratuity is based on service. You cannot put a gun on a customer. I would sue the department and the restaurant. If I am offered a second glass of water or coffee and I am given the " good morning " or " hello " salute, if I feel I am welcome and the service is prompt and clean of course I will tip.
11MRKARL 1 month ago
@whereeaglesfly100 Take your racist anti-Semitic comments and fuck off youtube you racist bigot.
It appears you rednecks have succeeded in inter-breeding more low iq white supremacist racist pieces of shit in your trailer park homes.
GTH.
MrFredGoldstein 1 month ago
@whereeaglesfly100 Whatever you say redneck!
MrFredGoldstein 1 month ago
@whereeaglesfly100 Learn to spell asshole.
MrFredGoldstein 1 month ago
Hello 240p. We meet again :(
WhuckMeMofos 1 month ago
Think that's bad? Obama passed the NDAA... watch?v=EIjijsmpdIU
TheQuibert 2 months ago
I knew this person who worked at a restaurant as a waiter. one night he served a table of 30 porch monkey big lipped niggers. he served them for two hours took up most of his night. they falsely complained to the manager that he did something he did not. he did not get any money for serving those darkies. if you were a waiter you would change your tunes. I agree with the waiter and the police 100%
scrambledpenis 2 months ago
@scrambledpenis If he behaved like you, he probably did not deserve to get tipped. Your friend needs to accept that he is a waiter and nothing more. The idea of serving those that he "feels superior to" probably hurts his ego. It was probably written all over his face while he was serving them. That's tough. Maybe he should change careers.
PiousXVII 1 month ago
mandatory gratuity????? WTF???????
crazybaby74 2 months ago
Are we in America, how could they be arrested it can't be true. Tip it's a choice .......
BOROZ28 2 months ago
very stupidddddddd
tommygirl20247 2 months ago
lol. Bethlehem, PA
immasecksee 2 months ago
The very culture of tipping is wrong. Period.
iringa77 2 months ago 2
it is police faul,he shouldnt by that retarded,he should less think,but police just dont think that is why is so many jokes about stupid police.
TheBlazen001 2 months ago
The restaurant changed name. Their website is mollysbethlehembDOTCOM. I don't know if these are the same owners, though.
Gentilseulement 2 months ago
Comment removed
Gentilseulement 2 months ago
Theonlybandever1000. No waitresses do not get a paycheck they get a piece of paper that says this not a check attatched to a paystub. Most places, the place I work included, require the server to claim 15/20% of the total check regardless of the actual amount of the tip. This is how taxes are paid by the server. Therefore, the server in this situation would have had to pay around five dollars to uncle sam for these customers arrogance. If you actually believe that the waiter/waitress is the onl
SuperBen1027 2 months ago
I hate the people that try to pretend this is the Police's fault. You clearly know nothing about government, because a Police officer is a job, that responds to government law.
Blaming this on a police officer is like blaming a McDonalds worker for the prices being too high.
Learn your facts before you bother the rest of the competant minded beings.
TheConservativeLiber 2 months ago
The newscaster on the far left is the only competent one in that room... The other guy is a fucking idiot saying that "they would have to pour my meal on my head for me to not tip" what a jackass
HoookahMick 2 months ago 7
@HoookahMick so how is he a jackass if he said he would tip no matter what other then the food on head thing
PwnStar1991 1 month ago
The USA is a freaking police state. When are you people going to wake up ? I don't "eat out" anymore, just the thought of what some nasty chefs put in the food in revenge...lol.
MrRedPajamas 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Dont worry everybody its all Gay everything is homosexual around here no fighting just peace and love!! No war just Anus
MultiMikey300 2 months ago
A mandatory gratuity is an oxymoron.
You can't demand that a person give something of their own free will. If it's demanded; then it's not gratuitous. That's like forcing someone to volunteer. If they're forced then it's not volunteering.
CratessetarC 2 months ago
1st, I would not pay a fine for this "infraction". 2nd and most important, I would quit eating at that restaurant. In a capitalist society your spending ability is your authority. Last but not least, if it's mandatory it shouldn't be called a gratuity. ATTENTION: This is only an opinion.
woodyrimshotrealized 2 months ago
He always wondered about this??? LOOOL
samanmm 2 months ago
what don't they understand about a "mandatory tip" if you don't like it don't eat there
Theethruth 2 months ago
@Theethruth Do you get a fucking paycheck? THEN SHUT UP!
theonlybandever1000 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Please watch my story "TIFFANY LEBOUEF SEEKS JUSTICE" They hid my only evidence and lied about it then they made me "TAKE THE DEAL" or go to Prison for 9 + yrs. This is crazy shit. They have given me 2 strikes and one more brush with the law of any kind will send me to "PRISON FOR LIFE"..... HELP MEEEEEEEE
joanarc1111 2 months ago
The definition of gratuity
1.a gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter or bellhop; tip.
2.something given without claim or demand.
You cannot REQUIRE some one to give a GIFT. If is is required it is not a gift.
citris1 2 months ago
@citris1: Now look up the definition "mandatory".
The courts DO rule that "mandatory gratuities" are part of the price.
DavidForthoffer 2 months ago
urban warfare is a rightwing neo nazi propaganda distributor
don't be fooled again
millerlois23 2 months ago
FUCK YOU
ismeti777 2 months ago
IF you can't or won't tip then don't eat out. If the services is so bad that you think you don't have to tip then leave and/or tell the manager. But the server has nothing to do with things like how the food tastes or how long it takes or if there are clean dishes to give you.
texxs01 2 months ago
Freedom... wow only in Iraq!!! oh wait this in the U.S.
davejsmith 2 months ago
this is where the term F*** the police comes into place! idiots follow orders like brain-DEAD zombies!
faheemthedream2007 2 months ago 22
@faheemthedream2007 No its where the term " WHO THE FUCK DOESNT TIP " comes from you fool
SonDimz 2 months ago
@faheemthedream2007 That's what you get with a dumbed down, brainwashed population.
Bawbster1 2 months ago
No! You greedy bastards. I will tip what is earned, if you incorporate mandatory gratuity... Then screw you, and if you didnt earn it, i'm not paying it.
disarmedalarm 2 months ago
Fire the piece of crap police chief that would arrest! Quit now you douche bag!
huntingtonbeachify 2 months ago
@huntingtonbeachify Fire the police for doing his job??? Its not police officers fault, hes told by the government to take that action... Get it together you idiot...
FenerbahceSK7584 2 months ago
@FenerbahceSK7584 A city policeman taking orders from the government? Do you understand that defeats the purpose of having states? I guess you like the one world government?
Sad
huntingtonbeachify 2 months ago
@huntingtonbeachify hes just fallowing the law... He doesnt make the rules he just enforces them so its not his fault for doing his job.
FenerbahceSK7584 2 months ago
@FenerbahceSK7584 That is exactly what the SS officers told us before we hung them.
Thats history.
ONE LOVE
huntingtonbeachify 2 months ago
@huntingtonbeachify You're an idiot...
FenerbahceSK7584 2 months ago
A tip is something you earn ...where the hell is America going?
brokenbones199 2 months ago
The charge will never stick. A required payment isn't a gratuity. A required payment to a waitperson should be called a service charge. The couple should have walked out without paying anything. A business that calls itself a restaurant is implicitly claiming that customers will get both good food and good service. The couple just didn't get what the restaurant offered to provide and was trying to charge them for, and so should have paid nothing.
novidtoday 2 months ago
Wow... What have society gone to? A tip is basically an appreciation for excellent service. People need to understand that they need to go beyond their normal service. Why do they even need to have a GOOD REASON not to tip? If they felt that the waiter did not go over and beyond their job expectation: (Example) getting customer order and relaying to cook and carrying out the order.
This society is becoming pathetic. Mandatory tip? Tip is something you EARN! its not automatic.
ReverseVortex 2 months ago
To Deathlyhurtt, what do you do for a living???
buddie623 2 months ago
The root word of gratuity is gratitude. Gratitude is a response to good service.
carp1844 2 months ago
I never tip to me its begging ....don't like making 2.13$ an hour get a real job!
DeathlyHurtt 2 months ago
@DeathlyHurtt What do you do for a living ???
buddie623 2 months ago
@F3rgo666 In that case you may want to put visiting America forward in your schedule a bit. I've been to around 30 different countries, and practically everywhere I've been, tipping percentages are not only ridiculously higher, they're also more readily enforced.
More importantly, this isn't exactly a tip per se. If nothing else, they've raised the price of service and slapped a "this is sorta gratuity" charge on the bill. A bit deceptive, but it isn't gratituity really, it's a charge.
Mulinaster 2 months ago
How about gratuity with harsh critiquing allowed? Hmm?
hartistry1957 2 months ago
@FenerbahceSK7584 Sir the menu is not law and nor can it be held as such in any State. Gratuity is just that in itself...I am happy with whatever the service is....If Iam unhappy I can actually refuse the entire meal because it was not what I ordered or was led to believe as per the advertisement provided by the resturant. This can then be construed false advertesment. Above all I could give a rats ass on your position in life...if I am paying for it then I get what I asked for
MrBRITBRIGHT 2 months ago
@MrBRITBRIGHT well then when you receive your meal and its not what u wanted, then u can leave the food on the table and refuse to pay and leave. Once you sit there and down the entire meal then you cant refuse shit... If the owner says, theres mandatory gratuity and your cheap ass dont feel like paying for it then take your fat ass to mcdonalds, they dont take tips there..
FenerbahceSK7584 2 months ago
I would say they won't be going back, or anyone else watching this. Lehigh Pub, 4 E 4th St, Bethlehem, PA. According to what I found on the net, it's now closed anyway.
wayneogden 2 months ago 23
@wayneogden The fact that they are out of business demonstrates what the public thought of their mandatory gratuity and the rest of their shitty restaurant. The only thing "mandatory" about this restaurant is FAIL!!
MattFoleyMotivation 2 months ago
@wayneogden Hopefully, the closed because of this stupid incident.
Gentilseulement 2 months ago
I got chased out of a restaurant in Times Square because my $15 tip only worked out about 10% of the bill; they were looking for 20% and I told the waiter and manager to fuck off or I would take the 15 bucks back as well. Good old NYC.
anbreatnach 2 months ago
I hate the way American women whine and speak from their nose when they complain. As an American, I never noticed this when I lived in the U.S. As an American who works around other nationalities in another country, and after watching this video and listening to the way that woman complains, yeah. My Scottish friend pointed this out, so true. Whine, nasal tone of voice, whatever. Hate me for it.
jacob7207 2 months ago
did she say 80%? gratuity?
jr2nd 2 months ago
Friggin ridiculous.
SonicTheFrenchHorn 2 months ago
If the service was that bad I wouldn't have tipped, with money. But i would draw a funny picture on a napkin with a note saying "This tip is equal to your service"
TheSolitaryTraveller 2 months ago
this is gay!!!
Amardeep504 2 months ago
I don't believe in tipping, unless the service is absolutely fucking outstanding. But other than that, its their job to do that.
bennoblack21 2 months ago
hitler is alive and well what,s next land of the free>
mossberg55 2 months ago
But officer, she didn't even smile while she does the lap dance on me and so i wasn't gratified, err, i mean satified
caloy2x 2 months ago
funny seeing a few people on here say "well it was part of the bill". shut the fuck up, getting arrested for not paying a tip is a fucking joke. I could care what the law is, most people have enough common sense not to ever do something so egregious. What the hell were the cops smoking?!
bayfader 2 months ago
Why in the hell do we tip cab/taxi drivers anyway? They don't even get out of the damn car!
joanm06 2 months ago
For God sake, let the wait staff work for the minimum wage and get rid of the entire 'tip' thing. No one should tell me how much to tip.
joanm06 2 months ago
This is a joke! USA please take note from the rest of the world...pay the full minimum wage so people dont have to tip. Im from England and im always in the US, the whole tip thing is a scam. When you get in a Luxury black taxi in London you pay the driver to drive by the meter and thats it. When you get a scabby New york cab you pay the driver to drive by the meter and then you tip him for?...driving well?... huh? how do i know hes drove well? london cab drivers also drive well im sure....CON!
MsBigbang29 2 months ago
STUPID F-ing cops. Don't they have real crimes to solve and criminals to arrest???!!! I know some wait persons who say if they know there is a required gratuity they slack off on the service because they know they are getting a required tip.
Alienwordz 2 months ago
why are people so dumb? They were arrested for not paying the full bill. They said in this video the 18% was added to the bill. The couple deducted the 18%. That is the issue
aescbrya 2 months ago
@aescbrya The full bill included an optional portion called the gratuity. If it wasn't optional it shouldn't be called "gratuity." Even by claiming it was a "mandatory gratuity" it still was optional by the mere fact that it was a called a gratuity. The original of gratuity: French gratuité, from Old French gratuite, from Medieval Latin grtuts, probably from Latin grtutus, voluntary; see gratuitous.
Ericwvb2 2 months ago
So clearly the police have no idea about what the law is. Good News. You can now become a police officer by filling out a coupon on your supermarket receipt.
livewiremjk 2 months ago
This will be laughed out of court. A gratuity, by definition, is optional. You cannot make it mandatory and still call it a gratuity. By calling it that, the restaurant told the customers that if they were unsatisfied with the service, they could leave it out of the bill. If they had called it something other than gratuity, for example, a "service fee," then that's different. This has gone to court already in the past, and the court supported the customer.
Ericwvb2 2 months ago
@Ericwvb2: The English meaning of words sometimes differ from the legal meaning. If a menu says that a "mandatory gratuity" will be added to all bills for parties of at least six, then the menu is defining "mandatory gratuity". If a customer accepts the proffered contract (by ordering food), then the customer is bound by the terms of the contract, with consequences as may be enforced by state law, such as California Penal Code 537.
DavidForthoffer 2 months ago
@DavidForthoffer Like I said this has been throught the courts already. The court determined that a gratuity was just that, optional.
Ericwvb2 2 months ago
@Ericwvb2: Without a cite to the court case, your claim of "the court determined" is no more authoritative than "I said".
For all we know, you may have left out critical details such as whether the "mandatory gratuity" was on the menu (versus just the bill), or what state law said, or whether one side screwed up.
The origin of "mandatory": "of the nature of a mandate". "Mandate": c.1500 from Latin mandatum, "commission, order".
Two conflicting words does not imply YOUR meaning.
DavidForthoffer 2 months ago
@DavidForthoffer Google "A Mandatory Gratuity Is Just a Tip, and Thus Not Mandatory, a Prosecutor Says" I didn't make it up. This was in New York, and the DA determined that a MANDATORY GRATUITY is still a gratuity and optional. It was the EXACT same case as this one -- There was a mandatory 18% gratuity and they left less -- they were arrested and the DA dropped the charges when it came to court and declined to prosecute.
Ericwvb2 2 months ago
@Ericwvb2: What is your point? That a D.A. establishes law, along with newscasters?
That is not the way our judicial system works. The COURT interprets law as applied to particular facts (as possibly assessed by a jury), subject to review by higher courts. The D.A. could have had any of many reasons for not prosecuting, including the desire to expend precious D.A. resources on bigger crimes. That's why LOOKING AT THE COURT OPINION is so important. Your news story is meaningless.
DavidForthoffer 2 months ago
@DavidForthoffer Note that the charges have been DROPPED in this case, just like the New York case I was talking about. Just like the New York case, the DA dropped the charges because they knew they did not have a case. If this was so clear, you'd think at least one DA would take it to trial. Gratuity means optional and mandatory means the opposite, therefore it is not clear contract law when you write "mandatory gratuity" a bill.
Ericwvb2 2 months ago
@DavidForthoffer And you are absolutely correct, the courts have not (as far as I know) ruled on this yet. However, the reluctance of two DAs in two different states to prosecute shows that they aren't thrilled at their chances of winning a case like this.
Ericwvb2 2 months ago
@Ericwvb2: The reluctance of two DAs in two different states to prosecute shows that typicall-understaffed District Attorney offices are more inclined to put their scarce resources where it takes a bigger bite out of crime.
The 18 hits in Google Scholar for "mandatory gratuity" among all legal opinions and journals wherein it was generally included with the price shows that the concept is well-known and settled in our judicial system.
DavidForthoffer 2 months ago
@Ericwvb2: Did you look at the case I cited? There, "mandatory gratuity" was treated as part of the price, in contrast to "gratuity".
DavidForthoffer 2 months ago
thats why canada is better that type of shit doesnt happen here.
RuneScapeMMO 2 months ago
its not mandatory otherwise it would be part of the bill
psp785 2 months ago
Im torn on this one. As a server I feel for those who get stiffed because most of us work very hard for that money. Where I work and quite a few other states, I only make $2.13/hr so my tips ARE my check. When I get stiffed it really makes a difference. On the other hand, getting horrible service sucks too. But unless the server is rude or something, most of the problems (long wait to be seated, long wait for food, dirty dinning room, poor food quality, etc.) is not the servers fault.
SmayfieldPhx 2 months ago
@SmayfieldPhx $2.13 is'nt even minninum wage dude.
TheLostComments 2 months ago
@TheLostComments Servers don't get min wage they get paid less because they get tips. Know your facts dude.
VforVendetta1105 2 months ago
@TheLostComments servers dont get paid minimum wage dude, the tips are considered part of their pay, and so a exception is made and employers dont have to pay the employees that are servers minimum wage. $2.13 sounds right for what servers get paid per hour, which is why u should always tip.
MrSpukinator 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@MrSpukinator This is a joke! USA please take note from the rest of the world...pay the full minimum wage so people dont have to tip. Im from England and im always in the US, the whole tip thing is a scam. When you get in a Luxury black taxi in London you pay the driver to drive by the meter and thats it. When you get a scabby New york cab you pay the driver to drive by the meter and then you tip him for?..driving well?..huh? how do i know hes drove well? london cab drivers also drive well CON!
MsBigbang29 2 months ago
if mandatory gratuity it should be called a service fee, right? why tip someone for doing their job.
gagerdemon 2 months ago
hahaha america
MrProset 2 months ago
Darn tip-skipping terrorists. (lol)
imRyRy 2 months ago
I’m not American. But technically speaking, if the so-called gratuity, tips, or anything else to that effect, is required to be met by laws, then that’s the way it is. BUT, personally speaking, whether it is not (quoting) “mandatory” by customs (?) [as opposed to the laws(?)], if you are reasonably unhappy with the service, then, IMO, you don’t need to tip. And from a customer’s POV, at the end of the day; EITHER way, the restaurant might lose more than gain (for not willing to let go).
MoteYAMATOSHI 2 months ago
@jarthurs1981 it is added, but I believe it is noted as an additional "item" on the receipt, but don't quote me on that.
jaketribb43 2 months ago
@jaketribb43 well i guess thats a new slick way of bypassing laws and norms, by listing gratuity as a "item".. well i still dont think gratuity is an "item" and if there is no clear law there needs to be that says you cannot do this. either way, gratuity is clear enough that its not an "item" like a door charge for example. grautity is definted as discretionary payment for services and cannot be treated as an "item" legally.
gboy1441 2 months ago
banking and corporate CEOs have been doing this with "bonuses" for many decades. the business of forced "gratuities" begs the question of whether or not these numbers are added to the day's gross receipts and used for tax purposes. a tip is for good service alone.
N321MM 2 months ago
gratuity is optional, if a restaurant adds it to a bill, im sorry but thats not appropriate nor legal. if the police are stupid enough to charge someone for this, it will be dismissed. just dont eat at places with automatic gratuity.
gboy1441 2 months ago
This restaurant will lose so much more money because of this bad publicity! If I get bad service I won't tip, that's why it's called a gratuity!!
cresidue 2 months ago
TIPS - To Insure Prompt Service
When I was a waiter if I had a table that had forced gratuity I never served them, My TIP was guaranteed thus defeating the purpose of a TIPS.
Gratuity by definition can not be forced.
RianRain83 2 months ago 16
Brave officers! they did this while ignoring the crack dealer just 2 blocks away!!! perhaps the crack dealer WORKS FOR THEM!
whitemanik1 2 months ago
I called the police once because someone broke into my apartment and stole everything and you know what they told me? "Theft is a civil matter. There's nothing we can do."
Municipal law enforcement is a broken system full of broken people. Maybe they'd have come and taken a report for my insurance company (that's right - renter's insurance doesn't pay if you can't get a police report, so the police make that useless) if I'd offered them the opportunity to rape me or something.
zEropoint68 2 months ago
HA HA
BOSS320KB 2 months ago
that news lady said "their were day where i didnt get tits" lol
sercanfreak1 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
That's bullshit to arrest somebody just because they didn't tip the waitress because the service sucked ass!
darthjacobmaak 2 months ago
Comment removed
darthjacobmaak 2 months ago
I FUCKING HATE FAGS THEY ALWAYS GRAB MY DICK IN THE SHOWER!!!!!
livelikeamanshould 2 months ago
How would they like a tip at the end of my boot ??
cheeriosinabowl 2 months ago
@cheeriosinabowl if they were fags they would of got killed.
livelikeamanshould 2 months ago
i work at waffle house
tippiing is CUSTOMARY not MANDATORY.
a 10% gratuity is indeed added to to go orders as a SERVICE FEE.
QuintonGsProfile 2 months ago