Foreign nationals should not be able to come to the US simply to give birth unless a legitimate medical necessity. The practice is so popular that travel agents offer birth tourism vacation packages so that the newborns of foreign mothers can become U.S. citizens. Obviously, this outlandish practice must stop.
We americans must put a stop to this practice by supporting legislation that would end the practice of birthright citizenship.
"sputter sputter...babies? Low income BABIES? What you talkin' bout babies. We could give a crap about living babies. If they die they die, they're poor after all, who cares. What we care about is making sure they are BORN! After that, who gives a crap."
This is the big heart of conservative christian activism. They love you but only before you're born and after you're dead.
MissyBelle would rather live in the US with murdering Islamo fascists like Hasan, she must be excited that Obama is bringing the four 9/11 killers to New York. The right wing religious nutjobs are the last thing standing between Obama and the surrender of our country to people like MyssyBelle and the Muslim fanatics.
She actually makes a good point. The more of these shits that give birth, the worse it will be for Americans. Abortion has statistically affected the crime rate -- studied it in my criminal law class.
As history has shown us time and time again, you don't reduce something by restricting it- you reduce it with open dialogue and education. You see, pro-choice people and pro-life people want the same thing: less abortions. Everyone wants less abortions. The way to achieve that is not to make abortion more difficult; the way to achieve this is to educate the public: abstinence, few partners, birth control. Making it more difficult to get an abortion would be counterproductive.
I have to disagree. Pro-choice people want more abortions not less. They fight to the death to make sure even a minor female has the right to go and kill her child without her parent's knowledge. You have fallen prey to the myth that the typical abortion is a scare teenager. Abortion is being used as a form of birth control by many women.
I got bad news for you: government $ is already used for abortions. A senior citizen could give their social security money to their grandkid to pay for an abortion. A government employee can get an abortion. Someone on welfare can get an abortion. You can't mandate what federal money is (legally) spent on. It's an invasion of privacy and is unconstitutional. I know that probably irks the shit out of you, but it's the truth, and 60 Senators will never vote to change this.
Using government funds to DIRECTLY support abortion is the problem. What people do with the money they get is up to them. Not federally funding abortions has been the law and it is constitutional.
The government $ wouldn't go DIRECTLY to fund abortions. The money would go to insurance plans that may/may not cover abortions. This is in accordance with current law.
The premiums. You can't get an abortion voucher from the government. I don't know anyone who would want that (except the Chinese). That's why this whole abortion debate is foolish. It's just an attempt by conservatives to reignite the culture wars, to bring abortion to the forefront of the debate, thereby derailing the debate and killing reform.
I agree. A workable health care system with easily assessable family planing would go a long way towards protecting the unborn and the born. Republicans seems to care little for the life of a child once it's born and only use abortion as a political wedge to win elections. How sad for the children.
No, it is quite the opposite. Liberals have tried to slip in abortion funding to get around current restrictions. This is why they are fighting among themselves on this issue.
The Democrats PUT into the BILL specific language to get abortion covered by ALL plans in America. They got caught by Republicans. This amendment passed by the House was to prove to everyone that abortion was NOT going to be funded.
Why would I make things up? I know it must be a difficult position to be in. You know, supporting the murder of unborn children. Don't blame me if you cannot defend it because it is indefensible.
Sorry, the whole "murder of unborn children" argument doesn't work on me. I tend to think the rights of people who have been born should come before the rights of those that haven't. You see, I don't have to defend a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body. The supreme court already did that for me in 1973.
Actually, that is not what they did. They robbed the unborn of their right to life. No woman who has ever lost a child prior to birth would agree with you or the Supreme Court, or the majority of Americans.
No woman has the absolute right to her own body to do as she pleases. She cannot legally kill herself but she can kill an unborn child.
No, it's not. No government money can currently go towards paying for any abortion unless it's being done because of incest, rape or in instances to protect the mother's health.
Who fights the wars? the middle class kids, the working class kids, and the poor kids, thats why the neo - con politcians dont like abortion they need to have somebody to fight the wars. Cant have no rich kids dying.
how about we exercise a little thing called "personal responsibility" so we dont have to have abortions? Dont punish the kid for your mistakes. But liberals dont believe in personal responsibility.
what republicans really mean when they say "low income babies" is minority children. if any republican knew that the most poor part of the country (appalachia mountain region) is mostly white, then republicans wouldnt have a problem passing entitlement programs.
Search FALL OF THE REPUBLIC on youtube. The globalist agenda is set but we have to stop the New World Order. As far as left or right is concerned, there is no right or left only right or wrong. 9/11 was an inside job. Wake up and realize the economic collapse was planned. This isn't conspiracy theory, its a matter of control in the hands of a few wealthy people. Know the truth, infowars . com
Obama wants the entire USA to be like the Chicago slums he came from. Nice going Democrats.............you really know how to pick losers for presidents.
haha faux news.. wow. Yeah, human rights really suck. Maybe you should go to China. They are really conservative over there. What really bothers me about dumbpublicans is that they bitch about personal responsibility, yet they outlaw drugs and prostitution, and play moral police. They don't believe in killing someone...until they are out of the womb, then fry `em! They think that everybody in the world will be saved by "donations". Please. When's the last time YOU gave money to a bum??
Are you drinking and posting- or is it SuperWorldwideTypo?
I believe a woman has the right to do as she wishes with her body- regardless of what that may be.
Not sure where government forced abortions came from-- not me.
The religious-right /social conservatives want to force unwanted pregnancies. While fighting tooth and nail to offer these mothers as little federal assistance as possible raising the child.
WRONG. Even your science finds that a baby ( you demean it as a fetus) can live now outside a womb after a month or so given the right environment. Isnt it ironic, that science has now proven a fetus IS a live citizen. Yall have LOST the argument. Soon roe v wade will be just another lost liberal idea...
Obama will have at least 2 more SCOTUS picks in his first term. The Stupak Amendment was tossed out of health care reform yesterday.
The argument is NOT lost- it's over- you simply lost the ability to make that tiny Evangelical brain function. Soap suds have a firmer grasp on reality than you do.
You have it all wrong. She was only saying more children would be born into poverty. Fox isnt for abortions neither is Republicans. But if you check your facts, there are lots on the Obama Administration that are for forced abortions on the poor, and there is one guy on Obamas staff that thinks there should be forced abortions for women who aren't married. Check the facts, why do you think Obama and staff think so highly of Mao Tse tung and the Chinese?
If you would like to rephrase you comment in the context of this video I'd be happy to discus it with you, kiddo. Simply put- yes. Their are millions of American that have NO business having children. The reasons are endless.
each time you post you prove your ignorance. Whatever the liberal talking point of the day is, you parrot it out like a lemming. I dont expect much more from a liberal, after all, you believe in killing babies...so why should anyone expect logic form yall?
Wow. I never said I believe in killing babies. That's YOU parroting the (oxycontin) Rush's of the world by turning apples into dildos. And I am quite well read, actually. My myriad vocabulary would leave you reeling in mental anguish if I unleashed the plethora of words I know but I stick to words you people can understand like these: (dictionary def's): liberal- open-minded or tolerant; conservative-cautiously moderate or purposefully low; stingy. That's from dictionary dawt com!
Then who will be selecting the upcoming SCOTUS over the next 3 year? Do you honestly think Justice Ginsburg will continue until 2012? And what part of the Stupak Amendment being tossed out of heath care reform don't you understand?
I doubt you even know what the Stupak Amendment contained. .
With anti-choice "victories" like these, who needs losses?lol. R v W will never be overruled. Nice try, sport.
I agree. We should start by ending this illegal immigrant manhunt, which is nothing more than attempts by SOCIALIST freaks to regulate the last FREE MARKET humans on this land!
Lack of availability to abortion leads to more "low income babies" Look no further than red states. PEOPLE LIVING BELOW THE POVERTY LEVEL BY STATE # 1 Mississippi - 21.6% # 2 Louisiana - 19.4% # 3 New Mexico - 19.3% # 4 District of Columbia - 18.9% # 5 Arkansas - 17.9% # 6 West Virginia - 17.9% # 7 Kentucky - 17.4% # 8 Texas - 16.6% # 9 Alabama - 16.1% #10 South Carolina - 15.7% statemaster(DOT)com/graph/eco_per_bel_pov_lev-economy-percent-below-poverty-level
Those that Proliferate Abortion will have to be Damned by GOD !
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Before the Reagen years- people like you were institutionalized. You don't know which end of a fork to use- and should never be allowed to use one unsupervised.
Banning abortion (which will never happen, by the way) would be incredibly stupid and counterproductive. All it would do is force women who are seeking abortion to get one from someone who is unlicensed and unregulated, creating an entire subculture of illegality that would be a drain on law enforcement, courts, jails, and, ultimately, our citizens- much like the damage that the criminalization of marijuana has done over the past 5 decades.
Or, better yet, just keep the status quo and not create an entire subculture of criminalilty. Abortion was made legal for a reason. You're obviously too young to know what I'm talking about.
Uh....execution is no deterrent. The murder rate in the U.S. (the only westernized, industrial country to still have capital punishment) is higher than that of other countries with similar GDP. Plus, the prospect of spending 50-60 years in prison until death is far worse than 5 years (the average) on death row until dying a painless death. Also, imprisonment is cheaper than execution. It's really a no-brainer, no offense.
Maybe as it is currently practiced. However if it was quick and public, I think a person would think twice before performing an abortion. However, you would have no repeat offenders.
It was illegal. Things can change. I doubt that it will ever be illegal again. However we can regulate and make more difficult to get one so that there will be fewer.
I think government subsidized insurance should cover abortions. After all, it's poor, young, unwed women who need abortions the most. Am I missing something? Sure, abortion may be "immoral" (whatever that means), but it shouldn't be the government's job to compell us to act "morally." You'd think conservatives would agree. Guess not.
It's amazing how right wing religious fanatics have infiltrated the government and have as much power as they do. What a shame.
Good post dougmanjones. Few people realize that abortion is not a moral issue, it is an education issue and a public health issue. Women who feel they must have an abortion will find a way whether or not it is legal. Prior to the legalization of abortion the second leading cause of death directly or indirectly of women aged 15 to 25 was complication due to illegal abortion.
Prior to the legalization of abortion the second leading cause of death directly or indirectly of women aged 15 to 25 was complication due to illegal abortion.
~~~
The above is a bold faced lie. I'd love to know where you got that information from.
I agree with you. I'm more libertarian than conservative though. Religious fanatics will be the end of us whether they be christian, muslim, or neopagan (ie AGW zealots).
Uh - why would there be a surge in low income pregnancies? It's like she's not aware that these uninsured low income mothers-to-be are CURRENTLY UNINSURED. O_o
The woman on the right's reaction to the question was spot on, even if i dont agree with her view. Also - she reminds me of the Character Ansley Hayes from West Wing.
The woman's reaction at 0:18 - 0:20 says it all...
Unbelievable.... To be so stupid to even ask a question like that. Wow. I'm from the city and have never heard of government funded abortions. I've never heard of any of my friends getting a government funded abortion. You pay out of pocket. And before you say anything stupid no, I do not have any personal past with abortion.
I was a low income baby when I was born. I come from a family of 10, parents included. I am now a small business owner and my daughter is now a Chiropractor and she has her own business too. People overcome and continue to strive for a better life because we can.
Wow. This far right lady, on which this topic I agree with her, was uttlerly befuddeld by this strange and erie question. That question is one of the oddest by Faux I ever seen..... Disgusting and evil at the same time...
Yes, they should be smart about having sex. The funny thing is that the same party that is against meaningful sex education is also against a woman's right to make her own health decisions and tend to be against nearly every form of welfare, and now are against meaningful health reform.
The Repug's only care about the fetus, they don't give a hoot in hell about anyone once they're born.
if you are smart about having sex be smart enough to pay for your own abortion. Another point, read your history and you would'nt make such irresponsible comments. look at who founded planned parenthood or even look up every other point you made.
you don't have to be very smart to have sex. I know. You can be stupid and still have sex. You can get raped. You can be 12. Or you can simply not be ready to have the lifelong commitment of having a child. You can be any age or intelligence for that to happen.
Christians don't want people to have abortions because they want people to be punished for having sex. This is because they are oppressed by the sexual guilt imposed on them by their religion.
I'm a christian, and I don't hold that view in any way whatsoever. Thanks for attempting to put words in millions of people's mouths, but I'll make the burden a bit less heavy for you by saying that isn't true for even most christians I know. It has nothing to do with punishment of the mother/father and everything to do with the sanctity of life of the child...and as far as this stemming from an oppression by religion? Get real.
Well, I can't speak for others, but as for myself and speaking out...in the political field I believe activism and protests are dead if their agenda is anything other than to have their views demonized, criticized, and immediately dismissed. However, I don't think that "christian-bashing" was necessary in HoochieKoochie's comment. There are many misguided individuals but I don't believe it is due to their being christian...
Life isn't fully manifested until the child has developed in life. If you care so much about life, why do you not care about the oppression of non-whites, genocides in other countries and war, homelessness and poverty? Champion these causes to become truly pro-life.
One of the most pro-life thing you could do is have awesome sex since this is a celebration of life. Wouldn't you agree since we are both absolutely guilt-free about our sexuality, really I am horny right now. YES!
Dude, you missed the entire point of my post. I agree that people should be smart about having sex. People have to be taught to be smart about sex. The GOP opposes meaningful sex education. One result of that is increased unwanted pregnancies. The GOP opposes abortion. The GOP also opposes most forms of welfare. Do you see the hypocrisy now in the GOP on this issue?
Totally and completely untrue. Meaningful sex education is what we need, but not what we are getting. Instead of informing teenagers about the risks and dangers of sexual activity at an early age, they are told it is just fine as long as you are "safe".
Describes your post to a tee (no)CommonSenseJoe. Once again you flaunt your willful ignorance like it's something to be proud of. Do you EVER research anything before you post?
Here's the deal you ignorant twit: BushCo pushed abstinence only sex ed and guess what we got: increased rates of unwed teen mothers and increased rates of STD's among teens.
Do you wingnuts score points each time you repeat the lies and deceptions foisted upon society by the GOP?
Did I say "abstinence only"? I am all for meaningful sexual education that lays things out honestly to kids. Your assumption that the rates increased because of what was taught is flawed. There are lots of factors that affect these rates. But what do you care as long as there are unborn children to be sacrificed on the altar of feminism.
Jeez, those folks at ClusterFox sure spend a lot of time talking about sex and bedroom activities.
How about this; stay out of peoples bedrooms and wombs.
As for the abortion controversy......not to worry. Healthcare will cover it. Any government sponsored healthcare plan cannot discriminate. Private insurance can but not subsidized healthcare.
It is also morally wrong to attempt to control someone elses reproductive system. Women have not been property for a very long time now, and its not going back that way. The vast majority of anti-abortion proponents are old men who are peeved they can't control their daughters vaginas any more.
If you want control of your own reproductive system, then pay for it YOURSELF!
I would talk about who makes up the ranks of those opposed to abortion. It is a majority of the American people. If you doubt me, then put the issue to a vote.
Most women DO pay for it themselves. Those that can't are minors or the poor who are served by places like Planned Parenthood, who connects them to clinics. The only money going directly to such things is the funding for PP, thanks to Bush's overfanatical restrictions.
The Supreme Court took on the right of abortion strictly because it *shouldn't* be up to a vote, as they often strip away civil rights from minorities & the poor.
Abortion access is part of womens health care. Deal.
Pregnancy is not a 'condition' and in the great majority of cases the 'lives of young girls and women' are not put at risk by it, so that's a very dishonest assertion.
Also, you'll have to explain to me what an 'underdeveloped fetus' is. I know what a premature child looks like: there are more and more who survive at 22 weeks; but 'underdeveloped'? Maybe the
Actually, every sentient human being should have the right to decide about their own lives without anyone butting in, whether it be me, or you or their mummy, or the sperm dispenser.
And just to shut you up, I'll let you know I'm an atheist who thinks, as a rule, women (and men) should have sex whenever and with whoever they like.
Only I'm not hypocritical enough to deny a sentient unborn life its humanity for the sake of an outdated crusade.
It is an unborn child. Semantics does not change the immorality or horror of abortion. This is not about protecting the life of the mother, only her convenience.
I'm not sure why you mention semantics and I understand your belief that a "unborn" fetus should be protected above all other life but I disagree with your view. Respecting the rights young girls and women is not about convenience, it's about dignity, morals, and the rights of individuals to control their lives as they see fit.
Because you seems to think that if you call an unborn child something else that changes the morality of murdering them. Women have the right to do whatever they want as long as it does not lead the death of another person. Worse, is asking me to foot the bill for their lack of responsibility.
A legal abortion is a perfectly responsible and moral choice for many people. If you want control of other people's reproductive system, you should take responsibility for what comes out. Health care, education, housing, etc for the "born" child. Don't ask me to foot the bill.
That is a flawed argument. There are thousands of couples who would love to adopt and care for an infant today. The fact is you are supporting the murdering of an unborn child for the sole purpose of not inconveniencing the woman. It is immoral.
If I believe that it's morally acceptable for me to kill my two-year old child, should I be able to do so? And should you only be able to stop me if you want to take care of my two-year old child?
The answer to both those questions is a resounding "no", but the the logic behind the your argument and the PC position would dictate that you answer "yes".
It's not a straw man nor is it asinine. You can't play the "Well, abortion is a moral and perfectly acceptable choice for some!" card, but then turn around and denounce said logic when applied elsewhere. If I see nothing morally wrong with killing my two-year old, then why shouldn't I be allowed to do so? It is, after all, my business and none of yours, right?
Oh, and what's the difference between the two? I hate it when people try to treat their propositions as self-evident. It annoys me.
Not only is it asinine, it's dangerous. It's the kind of hyperbolic rhetoric and disconnect from reality that gets women and doctors killed.
BTW, I'm not saying abortion is moral or immoral. I'm saying it's not for me to judge. And if you can't see the difference between murder and abortion, I don't you making decisions for me or my family. Double Yikes!
Hyperbolic rhetoric? You mean like people talking about "coat hanger" and "back alley abortions"? But, I digress.
It's not hyperbolic rhetoric. If people should "mind their own business", then why shouldn't I be allowed to do to my child whatever I please? It, after all, doesn't affect you. So why would you care?
And why isn't abortion murder? Both involve the taking of a human life without just cause (Because someone wants to isn't a good reason). Self-evident statements are bad.
I might be 25, but luckily for me I do know how to look things up. And if you looked things up you'd know that "back alley" and "coat hanger abortions" have been grossly overstated and are a lie. Mary Calderon stated in 1960 that "abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure".
Second of all, the unborn, just like the born, are humans. Why shouldn't all humans be given basic protections under the law?
1.) If, tomorrow, abortion in the U.S. were made illegal, it would still be "safe".
2.) How does killing the unborn solve overpopulation and it's effects on the environment? Shouldn't we be investing in alternative energies and working on better sustainable practices so that everyone can have a better life instead of simply killing the unborn?
3.) Being PL means two people live; being PC means one lives and one dies. Being PC isn't the same as being PL.
I disagree with you intellectually and morally. And to claim abortion would be safe if made illegal is just freaking bizarre and weird. Sorry. We will have to agree to disagree.
1.) It's not weird. Abortion was "safe" long before it was legal, and if it was made illegal it would still be "safe". The only reason illegal abortions aren't safe are because the countries they're primarily performed in don't have access to modern medicine like you would find in any industrialized country.
2.) You can disagree all you. But you're still wrong. There's no reason that we can't take care of both the born and unborn without harming the environment. None.
Any thing done outside the law has an element of danger. Having a medical operation without any legal safe guards would be very dangerous and could lead to death. That's why pro life is pro keeping abortion safe and legal.
Take care of the unborn and the born? WTF? Health care, food, housing, education for all? Good luck what that comrade.
1.) You're ignoring the fact that abortions were safe before they were legal. Legalizing abortion didn't make them safe, and criminalizing abortion wouldn't make them unsafe. This is where your argument fails. There's no stat you can find which shows that making abortions legal in the U.S. made them safe. This is because advancements in medical technology made abortions safe, not legalization.
2.) Yes, take care of the born and the unborn. Not wanting to do it is no excuse. It's a cop-out.
I can't tell if you're being purposely obtuse or you really believe your own BS. Your claim is embarrassingly lame and ill informed. Even a 25 year old should know better. Sorry you don't.
So, let me make sure I understand this correctly. I explain to you that abortions have been "safe" long before they were legal, showing you that the number of deaths resulting from an illegal abortion fell precipitously between 1940 and 1985, the biggest drop coming before any kind of legal abortion (In addition to a quote from the director of Planned Parenthood in 1960 who stated that all abortions were "safe").
Yet I'm being obtuse and am ill-informed? How does that work?
The above is not what I said. What I said was that, in the U.S., if abortions were made illegal, they wouldn't become "unsafe", as abortions in the U.S. aren't "safe" because they're legal-- Rather, they're "safe" because of advancements in medical technology.
Ignoring this point isn't going to make it untrue. Say what you will about my statement. At least, unlike you, I've got the stats and medical testimonies to back my claim up. You, on the other hand, have nothing.
I didn't ignore your point. I said it was lame and ill informed. Back alley operations aren't known for their medical advancements or for their safety record. It's like claiming moonshine is just as safe as Jack Daniels.
BTW - There are tons of medical testimonials to back up that for the protection of the mother, abortion should always be a legal option.
1.) Please, stop talking about "back alley abortions". It's annoying. But, you know, let's play a game. What percentage of "illegal abortions" do you think were done in back alleys? Just take a guess. 10%? 20%? 50%?
2.) Moonshine made by Jack Daniels would still be safe.
3.) You won't find any such stat for the U.S., and you're welcome to check. You can only find it for poor countries which don't have access to modern medicine, which is something I've pointed out about a bajillion times now.
The problem is that you calling my arguments "lame and ill-formed" don't make them so.
You seem to willfully ignore the fact that the overwhelming majority of abortions have always been performed by medical professionals; that the abortion death rate was going down long before abortion's legalization (Look at the numbers for 1940 - 1966); and that the reason the illegal abortion death rate went down is because of advancements in medicine, NOT legalization.
Moonshine is illegal and can cause blindness and death. Back alley abortions are illegal and can cause irreversible harm and death also. I'm not sure what you don't understand about that simply fact but it is a fact.
Keeping abortion safe and legal is pro life. Play games with your own life if you like but don't gamble with the life of my mother, wife, or daughter.
Once again, stop talking about "back alley abortions". They didn't happen. 90% of all illegal abortions were done by a licensed physician; 8% were self-induced; and the remaining 2% were done by someone else. I also like how you don't acknowledge how the majority of abortion deaths in the U.S. prior to RvW were caused by a doctor (Via saline abortions or the like), not by a "back alley abortionist" or via coat hangers.
...And abortions have been safe for decades-- Long before they were legal.
Sorry. Making up stuff doesn't save one life from a butcher out to make a buck or a self inflected death with a coat hanger. There are no records of illegal abortions or of the thousands of wrecked lives they cause. People breaking the law don't keep records and only the few and the brave come forward to report the crime.
There is a reason people fight for their Rights. Don't one should have to go back to the dark ages of fear and shame. Keep abortion safe and legal. Pro-choice is pro-life.
Before you tell me how I'm making up stuff, perhaps you should look up and read the writing of either Mary Calderon or Nancy Howell Lee. You might learn something. The internet is a wonderful thing. It really is.
...Oh, and if there are no records of illegal abortions or the thousands of wrecked lives they cause, then how the hell can you speak of "back alley abortions" since, admittedly, there are no records of them? That would mean that you're just making stuff up.
Thousand of safe legal abortions would be thousand of unsafe illegal abortions if you won. It's best to allow people make their own choice. That way everyone wins.
Let me ask you a simple question: In the U.S., are abortions safe because they're legal, or are they safe for another reason? If they're safe because they're legal, then why did the number of deaths via an illegal abortion fall precipitously before Roe v. Wade or the first state legalized abortion?
Also, people shouldn't be allowed to make their own choices when that "choice" involves killing another out of convenience.
Things done legally and in the light of day will be safer than the same thing done in a back alley with no oversight. Duh.
As to "killing" for our convenience: If life was so precious, we'd all be vegan monks but we are not. Again. I prefer the freedom of choice over non choice. You can conveniently over look the greater good of family planning and population control for your choice to never abort. But your choice is not right for everyone.
1.) Yeah... No. See, this is where you're struggling. If something is safe before being legalized, then it'll still be safe if it's made illegal again, since legalization has no effect o it's safety. This isn't rocket science.
2.) Funny. I haven't, nor will I ever, kill another. Secondly, there's nothing "good" about population control. Notice how Europe, Japan, Aussie, Canada and Russia all have population problems? And, no, it's not an exploding population (:
You're struggling because you're ignoring a point which you cannot refute. Abortions were safe before they were legal due to strides being made in medical technology. This is why you see the biggest drop in the number of deaths via an illegal abortion BEFORE, not AFTER, abortions were made legal.
Repeating this whole "abortions need to be legal to be safe" rhetoric, even after you were given evidence that shows otherwise, is nothing short of intellectual dishonesty.
Repeating the truth in the face of ignorance is necessary. Abortion should be kept legal for the safety of all involved. It's not only the right thing to do, it's the moral thing to do.
Repeating a lie two, three, four or even a million times isn't going to transform it into the truth. Sorry.
Abortions in the U.S. are safe not because they're legal, but because of strides made in medical technology post WWII. This is a well-known and easily researched fact.
Calling me a lair doesn't change any fact I've stated or does it make your opinion right. Hopefully we will never go back to the dark ages before abortion was a legal choice. There's lots of evidence and first hand accounts of how bad it was. Do some research yourself if you like. The choice is yours...as it should be.
I've already done the research. And I've posted it here. You, oddly enough, have just ignored it.
So, once again I have to ask you, when were these "dark ages" that supposedly occurred pre-legalization? Are the NCHS and the CDC falsifying stats? Was Mary Calderon, the director of PP in 1960, lying when she abortion was no longer a dangerous procedure? Was the American Journal of O&G lying when it said that legalization of abortion had no major effect on the number of abortion related deaths?
Probably yes they falsify stats, refer to swine flu scare of 1970's 60minutes episode. At one point it was legal in some states and not others. But the big positive was the lower overall birth rate of teenage pregnancy. Either they were more careful or more scared which made them more careful.
Would you drive 65mph into a brick wall just because you have airbags? Now go ask a 17 year old that question. I'll bet you get a different answer. Give young people an excuse to risk their life..
The only thing worse than ignorance, is willful ignorance. And you, my good sir or madam, are being willfully ignorant.
But, how about this. How about you post some evidence of your claims. Go ahead. Humor me. The fact of the matter is that said evidence doesn't exist, and many of the people who helped to perpetrate said lies have come forth and publicly stated that they were lies. But, like I said, humor me.
No one given the choice would trust an illegal operation over a legal. If you can't admit it obvious, there little we can agree on. Just for the record, I disagree with your opinion and your logic.
You can google Abortion before Roe v Wade or you can call me a lair.
Sorry if I find your comments illogical and your opinions wrong. Yet I still believe the choice for a safe and legal abortion
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Foreign nationals should not be able to come to the US simply to give birth unless a legitimate medical necessity. The practice is so popular that travel agents offer birth tourism vacation packages so that the newborns of foreign mothers can become U.S. citizens. Obviously, this outlandish practice must stop.
We americans must put a stop to this practice by supporting legislation that would end the practice of birthright citizenship.
onstageagain 1 year ago
poor people never ask for abortion, only the racists rich, ask for it for them.
kemetkush 2 years ago
Haha yeah, im guessing you based that statement off of something you read from mediamatters.
turok4lyfe 2 years ago
never in the history of black-american, have they riot, becaues they want it the right to have abortion.
kemetkush 2 years ago
"sputter sputter...babies? Low income BABIES? What you talkin' bout babies. We could give a crap about living babies. If they die they die, they're poor after all, who cares. What we care about is making sure they are BORN! After that, who gives a crap."
This is the big heart of conservative christian activism. They love you but only before you're born and after you're dead.
GretchenDawntreader 2 years ago
Wow, u know u went to far when even the Republican commentator is at a loss for words!!!!
Thkmra 2 years ago
Great example how Fox News thinks for people that don't.
MendingMedia 2 years ago 2
MissyBelle would rather live in the US with murdering Islamo fascists like Hasan, she must be excited that Obama is bringing the four 9/11 killers to New York. The right wing religious nutjobs are the last thing standing between Obama and the surrender of our country to people like MyssyBelle and the Muslim fanatics.
MrJesseblakebarton 2 years ago
this is just ridiculous....who would ever want to live in the US with all these crazy right wing religious nut jobs,,,
MissyBelleSYD 2 years ago
She actually makes a good point. The more of these shits that give birth, the worse it will be for Americans. Abortion has statistically affected the crime rate -- studied it in my criminal law class.
MrJesseblakebarton 2 years ago
There is no way to prove abortion has affected the crime rate. The whole abortion issue was sold on a lie that "every child would be a wanted child".
You do not value children by killed them before they are born. It devalues them.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
As history has shown us time and time again, you don't reduce something by restricting it- you reduce it with open dialogue and education. You see, pro-choice people and pro-life people want the same thing: less abortions. Everyone wants less abortions. The way to achieve that is not to make abortion more difficult; the way to achieve this is to educate the public: abstinence, few partners, birth control. Making it more difficult to get an abortion would be counterproductive.
dougmanjones 2 years ago 2
I have to disagree. Pro-choice people want more abortions not less. They fight to the death to make sure even a minor female has the right to go and kill her child without her parent's knowledge. You have fallen prey to the myth that the typical abortion is a scare teenager. Abortion is being used as a form of birth control by many women.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
I got bad news for you: government $ is already used for abortions. A senior citizen could give their social security money to their grandkid to pay for an abortion. A government employee can get an abortion. Someone on welfare can get an abortion. You can't mandate what federal money is (legally) spent on. It's an invasion of privacy and is unconstitutional. I know that probably irks the shit out of you, but it's the truth, and 60 Senators will never vote to change this.
dougmanjones 2 years ago
Using government funds to DIRECTLY support abortion is the problem. What people do with the money they get is up to them. Not federally funding abortions has been the law and it is constitutional.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
The government $ wouldn't go DIRECTLY to fund abortions. The money would go to insurance plans that may/may not cover abortions. This is in accordance with current law.
dougmanjones 2 years ago
I believe that is the issue. Are the funds going directly to pay for abortions if they are paying the premium for a plan that does.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
The premiums. You can't get an abortion voucher from the government. I don't know anyone who would want that (except the Chinese). That's why this whole abortion debate is foolish. It's just an attempt by conservatives to reignite the culture wars, to bring abortion to the forefront of the debate, thereby derailing the debate and killing reform.
dougmanjones 2 years ago
I agree. A workable health care system with easily assessable family planing would go a long way towards protecting the unborn and the born. Republicans seems to care little for the life of a child once it's born and only use abortion as a political wedge to win elections. How sad for the children.
eelzen 2 years ago
Both Stupak and Nelson are D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T-S!
Jesus, people.
Bei1052 2 years ago
Totally untrue.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
No, it is quite the opposite. Liberals have tried to slip in abortion funding to get around current restrictions. This is why they are fighting among themselves on this issue.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
"Liberals have tried to slip in abortion funding to get around current restrictions."
Really? When? In which legislation? And by "liberals" do you mean Democrats in congress or Planned Parenthood?
dougmanjones 2 years ago
The current healthcare bill. When they were caught do it, they just passed it off. That is why the amendment was put in to start with.
Democrats and/or whoever you want to consider a liberal.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
What?
dougmanjones 2 years ago
The Democrats PUT into the BILL specific language to get abortion covered by ALL plans in America. They got caught by Republicans. This amendment passed by the House was to prove to everyone that abortion was NOT going to be funded.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
I'm pretty sure you're making that up. Even if you're not, this debate has become tiresome. I'm done.
dougmanjones 2 years ago
That's right. Democrats never do anything like that.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
Maybe so, but that doesn't mean you're not making things up.
dougmanjones 2 years ago
Why would I make things up? I know it must be a difficult position to be in. You know, supporting the murder of unborn children. Don't blame me if you cannot defend it because it is indefensible.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
Sorry, the whole "murder of unborn children" argument doesn't work on me. I tend to think the rights of people who have been born should come before the rights of those that haven't. You see, I don't have to defend a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body. The supreme court already did that for me in 1973.
dougmanjones 2 years ago
Actually, that is not what they did. They robbed the unborn of their right to life. No woman who has ever lost a child prior to birth would agree with you or the Supreme Court, or the majority of Americans.
No woman has the absolute right to her own body to do as she pleases. She cannot legally kill herself but she can kill an unborn child.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
You say tomato, I say tomotto. Wanna argue semantics? Find someone else.
I'll see you in church. Not really.
dougmanjones 2 years ago
It is not semantics. It is real life.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
No, it's not. No government money can currently go towards paying for any abortion unless it's being done because of incest, rape or in instances to protect the mother's health.
The Hyde Amendment-- Read it.
Bei1052 2 years ago
Uh....you read it. It only applies to funds allocted by the Health and Human Services.
dougmanjones 2 years ago
The Hyde Amendment? I already have. You, apparently, have read neither the Hyde Amendment nor the current bill being rammed through Congress.
Bei1052 2 years ago
Haliburton needs these babies!
jag10 2 years ago
Who fights the wars? the middle class kids, the working class kids, and the poor kids, thats why the neo - con politcians dont like abortion they need to have somebody to fight the wars. Cant have no rich kids dying.
disturbed341 2 years ago 2
Where did you get these statistics? What study?
BriansVideoHobby 2 years ago
how about we exercise a little thing called "personal responsibility" so we dont have to have abortions? Dont punish the kid for your mistakes. But liberals dont believe in personal responsibility.
CollegeLyfe23 2 years ago
"Annoy a liberal; take personal responsibility."
Bei1052 2 years ago
abortion is great. stupid welfare skanks should be shot. plus most of these low income woman are black
cxvh 2 years ago
what republicans really mean when they say "low income babies" is minority children. if any republican knew that the most poor part of the country (appalachia mountain region) is mostly white, then republicans wouldnt have a problem passing entitlement programs.
volt9999 2 years ago
Search FALL OF THE REPUBLIC on youtube. The globalist agenda is set but we have to stop the New World Order. As far as left or right is concerned, there is no right or left only right or wrong. 9/11 was an inside job. Wake up and realize the economic collapse was planned. This isn't conspiracy theory, its a matter of control in the hands of a few wealthy people. Know the truth, infowars . com
ohkeepa2012 2 years ago
Obama wants the entire USA to be like the Chicago slums he came from. Nice going Democrats.............you really know how to pick losers for presidents.
thirdcoastguy 2 years ago
He grew up in Hawaii, idiot. He didn't move to Chicago till after he graduated law school. Try again.
dougmanjones 2 years ago 3
Get real loser
MJP1502 2 years ago
haha faux news.. wow. Yeah, human rights really suck. Maybe you should go to China. They are really conservative over there. What really bothers me about dumbpublicans is that they bitch about personal responsibility, yet they outlaw drugs and prostitution, and play moral police. They don't believe in killing someone...until they are out of the womb, then fry `em! They think that everybody in the world will be saved by "donations". Please. When's the last time YOU gave money to a bum??
deadheadlooser 2 years ago
@SuperWorldwide23
Are you drinking and posting- or is it SuperWorldwideTypo?
I believe a woman has the right to do as she wishes with her body- regardless of what that may be.
Not sure where government forced abortions came from-- not me.
The religious-right /social conservatives want to force unwanted pregnancies. While fighting tooth and nail to offer these mothers as little federal assistance as possible raising the child.
It's the womans body- and a womans choice. Period
mintvagoo 2 years ago
WRONG. Even your science finds that a baby ( you demean it as a fetus) can live now outside a womb after a month or so given the right environment. Isnt it ironic, that science has now proven a fetus IS a live citizen. Yall have LOST the argument. Soon roe v wade will be just another lost liberal idea...
compassionrepublican 2 years ago
Comment removed
mintvagoo 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@compassionrepublican
Are you drinking and posting?
Obama will have at least 2 more SCOTUS picks in his first term. The Stupak Amendment was tossed out of health care reform yesterday.
The argument is NOT lost- it's over- you simply lost the ability to make that tiny Evangelical brain function. Soap suds have a firmer grasp on reality than you do.
mintvagoo 2 years ago
You have it all wrong. She was only saying more children would be born into poverty. Fox isnt for abortions neither is Republicans. But if you check your facts, there are lots on the Obama Administration that are for forced abortions on the poor, and there is one guy on Obamas staff that thinks there should be forced abortions for women who aren't married. Check the facts, why do you think Obama and staff think so highly of Mao Tse tung and the Chinese?
bigdogsdontbark 2 years ago
@SuperWorldwide23
If you would like to rephrase you comment in the context of this video I'd be happy to discus it with you, kiddo. Simply put- yes. Their are millions of American that have NO business having children. The reasons are endless.
Ignorance is Right-Wing erotica.
mintvagoo 2 years ago
so, that means you KILL THEM??? The liberal mind is a mystery...or is it just ignorant??
compassionrepublican 2 years ago
Fox News thinks for people that don't.
This is a good example.
MendingMedia 2 years ago
oh please. Fox is less politially correct, but as far as hard news, its the only channel without a liberal bias.
compassionrepublican 2 years ago
@compassionrepublican
Fox is new for the beholden.
mintvagoo 2 years ago
each time you post you prove your ignorance. Whatever the liberal talking point of the day is, you parrot it out like a lemming. I dont expect much more from a liberal, after all, you believe in killing babies...so why should anyone expect logic form yall?
compassionrepublican 2 years ago
Wow. I never said I believe in killing babies. That's YOU parroting the (oxycontin) Rush's of the world by turning apples into dildos. And I am quite well read, actually. My myriad vocabulary would leave you reeling in mental anguish if I unleashed the plethora of words I know but I stick to words you people can understand like these: (dictionary def's): liberal- open-minded or tolerant; conservative-cautiously moderate or purposefully low; stingy. That's from dictionary dawt com!
deadheadlooser 2 years ago
@compassionrepublican
Then who will be selecting the upcoming SCOTUS over the next 3 year? Do you honestly think Justice Ginsburg will continue until 2012? And what part of the Stupak Amendment being tossed out of heath care reform don't you understand?
I doubt you even know what the Stupak Amendment contained. .
With anti-choice "victories" like these, who needs losses?lol. R v W will never be overruled. Nice try, sport.
Ignorance is Right-Wing erotica.
mintvagoo 2 years ago
Low-Income babies aka BROWN PEOPLE
Joe402 2 years ago
Actually, there are more whites in poverty than any other group.
BriansVideoHobby 2 years ago
In conservative fantasy land only godless minorities are poor and that is because they chose to be poor.
Joe402 2 years ago
FOX NEWS is the truth. Time 2 KILL socialism.
5tallcoolone 2 years ago
I agree. We should start by ending this illegal immigrant manhunt, which is nothing more than attempts by SOCIALIST freaks to regulate the last FREE MARKET humans on this land!
eueui 2 years ago
mintvagoo 2 years ago
Bill Nye is on the CNN right now, PWNING these Climategate morons.
MEpianist 2 years ago
Abortion is against God's law !
Abortion should not be done in the US !
Those that Proliferate Abortion will have to be Damned by GOD !
ZZTWP :
zztwp 2 years ago
Well, your god is going to have to get over it.
That nonsensical abortion amendment was just tossed out of the Senate.
It's dead.
172677 2 years ago
Number of times the word abortion is mentioned in the bible: 0
Last words of the bible (not verbatim): "Whoever shall add to the Word of God shall be cursed"
MachShot1337 2 years ago
Thou shalt not kill. It's pretty straight forward.
BriansVideoHobby 2 years ago
If you believe that, then it follows that you do not support war or soldiers. Is that true?
eueui 2 years ago
Those that Proliferate Abortion will have to be Damned by GOD !
-------------------------
Before the Reagen years- people like you were institutionalized. You don't know which end of a fork to use- and should never be allowed to use one unsupervised.
mintvagoo 2 years ago
Banning abortion (which will never happen, by the way) would be incredibly stupid and counterproductive. All it would do is force women who are seeking abortion to get one from someone who is unlicensed and unregulated, creating an entire subculture of illegality that would be a drain on law enforcement, courts, jails, and, ultimately, our citizens- much like the damage that the criminalization of marijuana has done over the past 5 decades.
dougmanjones 2 years ago
Maybe that is true, but banning abortions would result in more soldiers to send to war 18 years from now.
eueui 2 years ago
Not if you executed those who perform abortions illegally.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
Or, better yet, just keep the status quo and not create an entire subculture of criminalilty. Abortion was made legal for a reason. You're obviously too young to know what I'm talking about.
dougmanjones 2 years ago
Abortion was made "legal" for political purposes. It was a bad decision then and it is still a bad decision. I am older than you think.
My point was that if you are serious about stopping an illegal activity, nothing works better than execution.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
Uh....execution is no deterrent. The murder rate in the U.S. (the only westernized, industrial country to still have capital punishment) is higher than that of other countries with similar GDP. Plus, the prospect of spending 50-60 years in prison until death is far worse than 5 years (the average) on death row until dying a painless death. Also, imprisonment is cheaper than execution. It's really a no-brainer, no offense.
dougmanjones 2 years ago
Maybe as it is currently practiced. However if it was quick and public, I think a person would think twice before performing an abortion. However, you would have no repeat offenders.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
Except that abortion is perfectly legal. The whole point is kind of moot, don't you think?
dougmanjones 2 years ago
It was illegal. Things can change. I doubt that it will ever be illegal again. However we can regulate and make more difficult to get one so that there will be fewer.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
Shit did a fox news anchor make a logical argument FOR abortion? *twilight zone music plays*
MachShot1337 2 years ago 2
I think government subsidized insurance should cover abortions. After all, it's poor, young, unwed women who need abortions the most. Am I missing something? Sure, abortion may be "immoral" (whatever that means), but it shouldn't be the government's job to compell us to act "morally." You'd think conservatives would agree. Guess not.
It's amazing how right wing religious fanatics have infiltrated the government and have as much power as they do. What a shame.
dougmanjones 2 years ago 3
Good post dougmanjones. Few people realize that abortion is not a moral issue, it is an education issue and a public health issue. Women who feel they must have an abortion will find a way whether or not it is legal. Prior to the legalization of abortion the second leading cause of death directly or indirectly of women aged 15 to 25 was complication due to illegal abortion.
kaysandesses 2 years ago 3
Prior to the legalization of abortion the second leading cause of death directly or indirectly of women aged 15 to 25 was complication due to illegal abortion.
~~~
The above is a bold faced lie. I'd love to know where you got that information from.
Bei1052 2 years ago
I agree with you. I'm more libertarian than conservative though. Religious fanatics will be the end of us whether they be christian, muslim, or neopagan (ie AGW zealots).
452A4E454 2 years ago
WTF
richardmulroy 2 years ago
sadly for her, she looked totally flustered and cornered with that question.
porkramen21 2 years ago
What a stupid question, even by Fox News standards.
Ha, I just said, "Fox News standards!" Sometimes I say crazy things.
dougmanjones 2 years ago 3
This has been flagged as spam show
yes, yes you do.
JckMun 2 years ago
More low-income babies?
Uh - why would there be a surge in low income pregnancies? It's like she's not aware that these uninsured low income mothers-to-be are CURRENTLY UNINSURED. O_o
The woman on the right's reaction to the question was spot on, even if i dont agree with her view. Also - she reminds me of the Character Ansley Hayes from West Wing.
-Qes
QuasiEvilScott 2 years ago
The woman's reaction at 0:18 - 0:20 says it all...
Unbelievable.... To be so stupid to even ask a question like that. Wow. I'm from the city and have never heard of government funded abortions. I've never heard of any of my friends getting a government funded abortion. You pay out of pocket. And before you say anything stupid no, I do not have any personal past with abortion.
Peace
benbur69 2 years ago
I was a low income baby when I was born. I come from a family of 10, parents included. I am now a small business owner and my daughter is now a Chiropractor and she has her own business too. People overcome and continue to strive for a better life because we can.
spareaxe 2 years ago
Fuck- what a worthless channel.
AnneOnAMoose 2 years ago
Bush
Cheney 012
CynthiaSwallows 2 years ago
Wow. This far right lady, on which this topic I agree with her, was uttlerly befuddeld by this strange and erie question. That question is one of the oddest by Faux I ever seen..... Disgusting and evil at the same time...
1962thunderbird 2 years ago
Abortions for all. There is way to many people on this planet.
The people pro-creating the fastest are poor people. Not to sound cold hearted but this means more criminals and welfare addicts.
cgord31 2 years ago
If you can't feed them don't breed them.
gchand7 2 years ago
people should be smart about having sex.
goodatbasebal 2 years ago
Yes, they should be smart about having sex. The funny thing is that the same party that is against meaningful sex education is also against a woman's right to make her own health decisions and tend to be against nearly every form of welfare, and now are against meaningful health reform.
The Repug's only care about the fetus, they don't give a hoot in hell about anyone once they're born.
kaysandesses 2 years ago
if you are smart about having sex be smart enough to pay for your own abortion. Another point, read your history and you would'nt make such irresponsible comments. look at who founded planned parenthood or even look up every other point you made.
goodatbasebal 2 years ago
@goodatbasebal
you don't have to be very smart to have sex. I know. You can be stupid and still have sex. You can get raped. You can be 12. Or you can simply not be ready to have the lifelong commitment of having a child. You can be any age or intelligence for that to happen.
Christians don't want people to have abortions because they want people to be punished for having sex. This is because they are oppressed by the sexual guilt imposed on them by their religion.
Margaret Sanger.
HoochieKoochie 2 years ago
I'm a christian, and I don't hold that view in any way whatsoever. Thanks for attempting to put words in millions of people's mouths, but I'll make the burden a bit less heavy for you by saying that isn't true for even most christians I know. It has nothing to do with punishment of the mother/father and everything to do with the sanctity of life of the child...and as far as this stemming from an oppression by religion? Get real.
michahsimmons 2 years ago
unfortunately ... your kind of Christians don't speak up...
JamaicanMon 2 years ago
Well, I can't speak for others, but as for myself and speaking out...in the political field I believe activism and protests are dead if their agenda is anything other than to have their views demonized, criticized, and immediately dismissed. However, I don't think that "christian-bashing" was necessary in HoochieKoochie's comment. There are many misguided individuals but I don't believe it is due to their being christian...
michahsimmons 2 years ago
@michahsimmons
Life isn't fully manifested until the child has developed in life. If you care so much about life, why do you not care about the oppression of non-whites, genocides in other countries and war, homelessness and poverty? Champion these causes to become truly pro-life.
One of the most pro-life thing you could do is have awesome sex since this is a celebration of life. Wouldn't you agree since we are both absolutely guilt-free about our sexuality, really I am horny right now. YES!
HoochieKoochie 1 year ago
Dude, you missed the entire point of my post. I agree that people should be smart about having sex. People have to be taught to be smart about sex. The GOP opposes meaningful sex education. One result of that is increased unwanted pregnancies. The GOP opposes abortion. The GOP also opposes most forms of welfare. Do you see the hypocrisy now in the GOP on this issue?
kaysandesses 2 years ago
Totally and completely untrue. Meaningful sex education is what we need, but not what we are getting. Instead of informing teenagers about the risks and dangers of sexual activity at an early age, they are told it is just fine as long as you are "safe".
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
"Totally and completely untrue"
Describes your post to a tee (no)CommonSenseJoe. Once again you flaunt your willful ignorance like it's something to be proud of. Do you EVER research anything before you post?
Here's the deal you ignorant twit: BushCo pushed abstinence only sex ed and guess what we got: increased rates of unwed teen mothers and increased rates of STD's among teens.
Do you wingnuts score points each time you repeat the lies and deceptions foisted upon society by the GOP?
kaysandesses 2 years ago
Did I say "abstinence only"? I am all for meaningful sexual education that lays things out honestly to kids. Your assumption that the rates increased because of what was taught is flawed. There are lots of factors that affect these rates. But what do you care as long as there are unborn children to be sacrificed on the altar of feminism.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
Jeez, those folks at ClusterFox sure spend a lot of time talking about sex and bedroom activities.
How about this; stay out of peoples bedrooms and wombs.
As for the abortion controversy......not to worry. Healthcare will cover it. Any government sponsored healthcare plan cannot discriminate. Private insurance can but not subsidized healthcare.
It would never pass a Supreme Court challenge.
172677 2 years ago
God, Fox News has some fucked up anchors.
doomsoth 2 years ago
Freedom = Safe and legal Abortion.
eelzen 2 years ago
Not if you are an unborn child. Abortion = murder.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
Your opinion is not the law. Sorry. Respect life and women. Keep abortion safe and legal. Coat hangers are for closets.
Don't like abortion? You are free not to have one and teach your children it's wrong.
eelzen 2 years ago
Why should I have to pay for one then? Respect for life? How is killing a life "respect"?
It is not a question of not liking it. It is morally wrong to kill an unborn child for the convenience of a woman.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
It is also morally wrong to attempt to control someone elses reproductive system. Women have not been property for a very long time now, and its not going back that way. The vast majority of anti-abortion proponents are old men who are peeved they can't control their daughters vaginas any more.
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
If you want control of your own reproductive system, then pay for it YOURSELF!
I would talk about who makes up the ranks of those opposed to abortion. It is a majority of the American people. If you doubt me, then put the issue to a vote.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
"It is a majority of the American people."
Proof? How about something from a non-biased polling agency.
kaysandesses 2 years ago
Most women DO pay for it themselves. Those that can't are minors or the poor who are served by places like Planned Parenthood, who connects them to clinics. The only money going directly to such things is the funding for PP, thanks to Bush's overfanatical restrictions.
The Supreme Court took on the right of abortion strictly because it *shouldn't* be up to a vote, as they often strip away civil rights from minorities & the poor.
Abortion access is part of womens health care. Deal.
DeadlyChinchilla 2 years ago
I disagree with you morally and logically.
Pro-life is pro safe and legal abortion.
eelzen 2 years ago
For who? Certainly not the unborn child!
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
There is no morality in putting an undeveloped fetus over the lives of young girls and women. None.
Pro-life is keeping abortion safe and legal.
eelzen 2 years ago
Pregnancy is not a 'condition' and in the great majority of cases the 'lives of young girls and women' are not put at risk by it, so that's a very dishonest assertion.
Also, you'll have to explain to me what an 'underdeveloped fetus' is. I know what a premature child looks like: there are more and more who survive at 22 weeks; but 'underdeveloped'? Maybe the
24 week olds who still get aborted every day.
MarquisdeBarrabas 2 years ago
I prefer women and their families have the right to decide about their own lives without you butting in.
Abortion should be safe and legal and up to the individual and their doctor.
eelzen 2 years ago
Actually, every sentient human being should have the right to decide about their own lives without anyone butting in, whether it be me, or you or their mummy, or the sperm dispenser.
And just to shut you up, I'll let you know I'm an atheist who thinks, as a rule, women (and men) should have sex whenever and with whoever they like.
Only I'm not hypocritical enough to deny a sentient unborn life its humanity for the sake of an outdated crusade.
MarquisdeBarrabas 2 years ago
It is an unborn child. Semantics does not change the immorality or horror of abortion. This is not about protecting the life of the mother, only her convenience.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
I'm not sure why you mention semantics and I understand your belief that a "unborn" fetus should be protected above all other life but I disagree with your view. Respecting the rights young girls and women is not about convenience, it's about dignity, morals, and the rights of individuals to control their lives as they see fit.
eelzen 2 years ago
Because you seems to think that if you call an unborn child something else that changes the morality of murdering them. Women have the right to do whatever they want as long as it does not lead the death of another person. Worse, is asking me to foot the bill for their lack of responsibility.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
A legal abortion is a perfectly responsible and moral choice for many people. If you want control of other people's reproductive system, you should take responsibility for what comes out. Health care, education, housing, etc for the "born" child. Don't ask me to foot the bill.
eelzen 2 years ago
That is a flawed argument. There are thousands of couples who would love to adopt and care for an infant today. The fact is you are supporting the murdering of an unborn child for the sole purpose of not inconveniencing the woman. It is immoral.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
If I believe that it's morally acceptable for me to kill my two-year old child, should I be able to do so? And should you only be able to stop me if you want to take care of my two-year old child?
The answer to both those questions is a resounding "no", but the the logic behind the your argument and the PC position would dictate that you answer "yes".
Bei1052 2 years ago
I'm pro choice and also pro you staying away from two year old kids. Yikes!
eelzen 2 years ago
Way to not answer the question. It's not terribly surprising, though.
If it's my two year-old child, then what's the problem?
Bei1052 2 years ago
Comparing killing a two-year old to an abortion goes beyond the typical straw man argument into fantasy land for the totally asinine.
eelzen 2 years ago
Not at all. They are both living persons.
CommonSenseJoe 2 years ago
It's not a straw man nor is it asinine. You can't play the "Well, abortion is a moral and perfectly acceptable choice for some!" card, but then turn around and denounce said logic when applied elsewhere. If I see nothing morally wrong with killing my two-year old, then why shouldn't I be allowed to do so? It is, after all, my business and none of yours, right?
Oh, and what's the difference between the two? I hate it when people try to treat their propositions as self-evident. It annoys me.
Bei1052 2 years ago
Not only is it asinine, it's dangerous. It's the kind of hyperbolic rhetoric and disconnect from reality that gets women and doctors killed.
BTW, I'm not saying abortion is moral or immoral. I'm saying it's not for me to judge. And if you can't see the difference between murder and abortion, I don't you making decisions for me or my family. Double Yikes!
eelzen 2 years ago
Hyperbolic rhetoric? You mean like people talking about "coat hanger" and "back alley abortions"? But, I digress.
It's not hyperbolic rhetoric. If people should "mind their own business", then why shouldn't I be allowed to do to my child whatever I please? It, after all, doesn't affect you. So why would you care?
And why isn't abortion murder? Both involve the taking of a human life without just cause (Because someone wants to isn't a good reason). Self-evident statements are bad.
Bei1052 2 years ago
Maybe you're to young to know coat hangers and back alleys were a reality before abortion was a legal option.
Your view that a fetus and a child are the same is no more self-evident as abortion being the same as murder. Sorry.
I'm happy to respect your opinion, but I don't agree with it and think abortion should be keep legal and safe in a free society such as ours.
eelzen 2 years ago
I might be 25, but luckily for me I do know how to look things up. And if you looked things up you'd know that "back alley" and "coat hanger abortions" have been grossly overstated and are a lie. Mary Calderon stated in 1960 that "abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure".
Second of all, the unborn, just like the born, are humans. Why shouldn't all humans be given basic protections under the law?
Bei1052 2 years ago
Abortion is safe when it's legal. That's a fact.
The value you place on a fetus is grossly over stated considering over population and its effect on the environment and life in general.
Pro-life is pro-choice.
eelzen 2 years ago
1.) If, tomorrow, abortion in the U.S. were made illegal, it would still be "safe".
2.) How does killing the unborn solve overpopulation and it's effects on the environment? Shouldn't we be investing in alternative energies and working on better sustainable practices so that everyone can have a better life instead of simply killing the unborn?
3.) Being PL means two people live; being PC means one lives and one dies. Being PC isn't the same as being PL.
Bei1052 2 years ago
I disagree with you intellectually and morally. And to claim abortion would be safe if made illegal is just freaking bizarre and weird. Sorry. We will have to agree to disagree.
eelzen 2 years ago
1.) It's not weird. Abortion was "safe" long before it was legal, and if it was made illegal it would still be "safe". The only reason illegal abortions aren't safe are because the countries they're primarily performed in don't have access to modern medicine like you would find in any industrialized country.
2.) You can disagree all you. But you're still wrong. There's no reason that we can't take care of both the born and unborn without harming the environment. None.
Bei1052 2 years ago
Any thing done outside the law has an element of danger. Having a medical operation without any legal safe guards would be very dangerous and could lead to death. That's why pro life is pro keeping abortion safe and legal.
Take care of the unborn and the born? WTF? Health care, food, housing, education for all? Good luck what that comrade.
eelzen 2 years ago
1.) You're ignoring the fact that abortions were safe before they were legal. Legalizing abortion didn't make them safe, and criminalizing abortion wouldn't make them unsafe. This is where your argument fails. There's no stat you can find which shows that making abortions legal in the U.S. made them safe. This is because advancements in medical technology made abortions safe, not legalization.
2.) Yes, take care of the born and the unborn. Not wanting to do it is no excuse. It's a cop-out.
Bei1052 2 years ago
I can't tell if you're being purposely obtuse or you really believe your own BS. Your claim is embarrassingly lame and ill informed. Even a 25 year old should know better. Sorry you don't.
eelzen 2 years ago
So, let me make sure I understand this correctly. I explain to you that abortions have been "safe" long before they were legal, showing you that the number of deaths resulting from an illegal abortion fell precipitously between 1940 and 1985, the biggest drop coming before any kind of legal abortion (In addition to a quote from the director of Planned Parenthood in 1960 who stated that all abortions were "safe").
Yet I'm being obtuse and am ill-informed? How does that work?
Bei1052 2 years ago
Your belief that an illegal abortion is as safe as a legal one is embarrassingly lame and ill inform. Repeating it doesn't change that fact.
eelzen 2 years ago
The above is not what I said. What I said was that, in the U.S., if abortions were made illegal, they wouldn't become "unsafe", as abortions in the U.S. aren't "safe" because they're legal-- Rather, they're "safe" because of advancements in medical technology.
Ignoring this point isn't going to make it untrue. Say what you will about my statement. At least, unlike you, I've got the stats and medical testimonies to back my claim up. You, on the other hand, have nothing.
Bei1052 2 years ago
I didn't ignore your point. I said it was lame and ill informed. Back alley operations aren't known for their medical advancements or for their safety record. It's like claiming moonshine is just as safe as Jack Daniels.
BTW - There are tons of medical testimonials to back up that for the protection of the mother, abortion should always be a legal option.
eelzen 2 years ago
1.) Please, stop talking about "back alley abortions". It's annoying. But, you know, let's play a game. What percentage of "illegal abortions" do you think were done in back alleys? Just take a guess. 10%? 20%? 50%?
2.) Moonshine made by Jack Daniels would still be safe.
3.) You won't find any such stat for the U.S., and you're welcome to check. You can only find it for poor countries which don't have access to modern medicine, which is something I've pointed out about a bajillion times now.
Bei1052 2 years ago
The problem is that you calling my arguments "lame and ill-formed" don't make them so.
You seem to willfully ignore the fact that the overwhelming majority of abortions have always been performed by medical professionals; that the abortion death rate was going down long before abortion's legalization (Look at the numbers for 1940 - 1966); and that the reason the illegal abortion death rate went down is because of advancements in medicine, NOT legalization.
Bei1052 2 years ago
Moonshine is illegal and can cause blindness and death. Back alley abortions are illegal and can cause irreversible harm and death also. I'm not sure what you don't understand about that simply fact but it is a fact.
Keeping abortion safe and legal is pro life. Play games with your own life if you like but don't gamble with the life of my mother, wife, or daughter.
eelzen 2 years ago
Once again, stop talking about "back alley abortions". They didn't happen. 90% of all illegal abortions were done by a licensed physician; 8% were self-induced; and the remaining 2% were done by someone else. I also like how you don't acknowledge how the majority of abortion deaths in the U.S. prior to RvW were caused by a doctor (Via saline abortions or the like), not by a "back alley abortionist" or via coat hangers.
...And abortions have been safe for decades-- Long before they were legal.
Bei1052 2 years ago
Sorry. Making up stuff doesn't save one life from a butcher out to make a buck or a self inflected death with a coat hanger. There are no records of illegal abortions or of the thousands of wrecked lives they cause. People breaking the law don't keep records and only the few and the brave come forward to report the crime.
There is a reason people fight for their Rights. Don't one should have to go back to the dark ages of fear and shame. Keep abortion safe and legal. Pro-choice is pro-life.
eelzen 2 years ago
Before you tell me how I'm making up stuff, perhaps you should look up and read the writing of either Mary Calderon or Nancy Howell Lee. You might learn something. The internet is a wonderful thing. It really is.
...Oh, and if there are no records of illegal abortions or the thousands of wrecked lives they cause, then how the hell can you speak of "back alley abortions" since, admittedly, there are no records of them? That would mean that you're just making stuff up.
Game. Set. Match. Me.
Bei1052 2 years ago
Thousand of safe legal abortions would be thousand of unsafe illegal abortions if you won. It's best to allow people make their own choice. That way everyone wins.
eelzen 2 years ago
Let me ask you a simple question: In the U.S., are abortions safe because they're legal, or are they safe for another reason? If they're safe because they're legal, then why did the number of deaths via an illegal abortion fall precipitously before Roe v. Wade or the first state legalized abortion?
Also, people shouldn't be allowed to make their own choices when that "choice" involves killing another out of convenience.
Bei1052 2 years ago
Things done legally and in the light of day will be safer than the same thing done in a back alley with no oversight. Duh.
As to "killing" for our convenience: If life was so precious, we'd all be vegan monks but we are not. Again. I prefer the freedom of choice over non choice. You can conveniently over look the greater good of family planning and population control for your choice to never abort. But your choice is not right for everyone.
eelzen 2 years ago
1.) Yeah... No. See, this is where you're struggling. If something is safe before being legalized, then it'll still be safe if it's made illegal again, since legalization has no effect o it's safety. This isn't rocket science.
2.) Funny. I haven't, nor will I ever, kill another. Secondly, there's nothing "good" about population control. Notice how Europe, Japan, Aussie, Canada and Russia all have population problems? And, no, it's not an exploding population (:
Bei1052 2 years ago
Funny how you assume disagreeing with you is struggling. I disagree with your comments and don't understand your logic but struggling? Not really.
And yes. For the "good" of life, abortion should be keep safe and legal. Nothing you've said changes that fact.
eelzen 2 years ago
You're struggling because you're ignoring a point which you cannot refute. Abortions were safe before they were legal due to strides being made in medical technology. This is why you see the biggest drop in the number of deaths via an illegal abortion BEFORE, not AFTER, abortions were made legal.
Repeating this whole "abortions need to be legal to be safe" rhetoric, even after you were given evidence that shows otherwise, is nothing short of intellectual dishonesty.
Bei1052 2 years ago
Repeating the truth in the face of ignorance is necessary. Abortion should be kept legal for the safety of all involved. It's not only the right thing to do, it's the moral thing to do.
eelzen 2 years ago
Repeating a lie two, three, four or even a million times isn't going to transform it into the truth. Sorry.
Abortions in the U.S. are safe not because they're legal, but because of strides made in medical technology post WWII. This is a well-known and easily researched fact.
The intrawebz. Learn to use it :-P
Bei1052 2 years ago
Calling me a lair doesn't change any fact I've stated or does it make your opinion right. Hopefully we will never go back to the dark ages before abortion was a legal choice. There's lots of evidence and first hand accounts of how bad it was. Do some research yourself if you like. The choice is yours...as it should be.
eelzen 2 years ago
I've already done the research. And I've posted it here. You, oddly enough, have just ignored it.
So, once again I have to ask you, when were these "dark ages" that supposedly occurred pre-legalization? Are the NCHS and the CDC falsifying stats? Was Mary Calderon, the director of PP in 1960, lying when she abortion was no longer a dangerous procedure? Was the American Journal of O&G lying when it said that legalization of abortion had no major effect on the number of abortion related deaths?
Bei1052 2 years ago
Probably yes they falsify stats, refer to swine flu scare of 1970's 60minutes episode. At one point it was legal in some states and not others. But the big positive was the lower overall birth rate of teenage pregnancy. Either they were more careful or more scared which made them more careful.
Would you drive 65mph into a brick wall just because you have airbags? Now go ask a 17 year old that question. I'll bet you get a different answer. Give young people an excuse to risk their life..
jimprjayp 2 years ago
The only thing worse than ignorance, is willful ignorance. And you, my good sir or madam, are being willfully ignorant.
But, how about this. How about you post some evidence of your claims. Go ahead. Humor me. The fact of the matter is that said evidence doesn't exist, and many of the people who helped to perpetrate said lies have come forth and publicly stated that they were lies. But, like I said, humor me.
Bei1052 2 years ago
No one given the choice would trust an illegal operation over a legal. If you can't admit it obvious, there little we can agree on. Just for the record, I disagree with your opinion and your logic.
You can google Abortion before Roe v Wade or you can call me a lair.
Sorry if I find your comments illogical and your opinions wrong. Yet I still believe the choice for a safe and legal abortion