I feel the same way, religion was made to keep people in line, but if there is a higher power, and not a complete fucker like the bible depicts him as, then i'll be fine. Christianity is bull SHIT!!!
There may be a higher power, but God doesn't demand praise and warship, to him, living your life respectfully and just-fully should be enough to make him content.
I don't share my idea of a supreme being with any of the three Abrahamic faiths. To me, a truly supreme deity woudn't be vengeful and jealous (Judaic), wouldn't have to sacrifice himself in order forgive people for breaking rules no one can possibly live by (Christianity), and isn't so insecure that he needs to be told how great he is 5 times a day (Islam)
To say that Allah is so much different from YHWH or Jehovah is simply ignorant to be honest. Let's take a look at those prohibitions the Qur'an dictates:
1. Allah is the one true God, you shall have no other Gods beside him.
2. You shall not deny any of the revelations of Qur'an recognized prophets.
3. You shall not feel safe in opposition of Allah.
4. You shall not lose hope in the mercy of Allah.
5. You shall not swear falsely in the name of Allah.
The list goes on and on with stuff like this (and the 10 Hebrew Commandments check in also). The point is not that God (Your God) doesn't do anything for me, he might aswel be responsible for everything good that has ever happened to me. I'd much rather have a dad that's there for me if I need him than one that's always gone and just sends me a 1000 dollar check every month. Why would I praise something that doesn't even take the time to communicate with me directly?
furthermore, the Qur'an repeatedly refers to 'Chastisement in this world and the next', 'Terrible doom' 'Awful doom' 'Cursed in this life and the hereafter' and so forth and so forth... He actually goes one step further than to just doom you if you don't love him. There's a large number of things that you will be doomed for in this list... scandalize people, lying, drink alcohol, not praying 5 times a day, break a promise, eat pork, Not going to Mecca when you are able to.
Why does this God (Your God) send prophets to express his message and will? Why doesn't he communicate with every person individually? Surely a supreme, omnipotent being could, and should, do this? He must see how confusing it would become when there's several thousand 'prophets' saying several thousand different things..
@TheSocraticApproach But if God really did talk to the prophets, and they arnt just full of bullshit, then they'd all have the same fucking story, not all diffrent ones. And if he we're to talk to us, he'd talk to all of us, not just a certain few, he "loves us all" apparently, even rapists...
To bake the three abrahamic faiths together might not reflect good upon yourself as an intellectual.
In Islam we are admonished to be thankful to God for the things that he gave us - not for other things. In this respect, I think your "God/Dad" parallell doesn't give the "abrahamic faiths" (quotation marks because they probably differ somewhat at this point) any justice.
Don't you agree?
Don't superimpose fallacies of Chr. and/or Jd. on Islamic faith without first confirming. No?
I might have to clarify that last comment. You say that we have to be grateful for the things god gave us. But god hasn't given me anything. The things that I have accomplished in life have either been self obtained, or sent anonymously (e.g. luck/chance etc) And isn't god most often referred to as 'the father'?
I think you're taking my feedback as a bit too aggressive, if you did, please accept my apologies --- trying to be constructive. :)
---
I didn't mean to tell you that YOU NEED TO be thankful for what God has given YOU.
(You don't believe in God, so that would be kind of pointless)
What I'm trying to say is that: When you criticize a group of entities you need to have VERIFIED that the points you're addressinging are general to all members of that group.
But to come to my conclusion, I think you are a very moderate, tolerant muslim (you might even be dutch!;) ) and if we were to have any type of religious people in our world, your type would probably be very high on my list.
So I guess this video doesn't really apply all that much to you, it more or less goes out to the fundamentalists out there, and the people that believe everyone MUST bow before god, because... well.. he's god. whatcha gonna do about him being god? nothing, thats what.
You see an absurdity in an obligation to be thankful to God. This is because you see it as God hasn't given you anything.
Notwithstanding that it's impossible to believe that something inexistent ever gave you anything,
you are presenting your personal belief about God not giving you anything as a premise for abrahamic faith! And letting that be the indirect reason for faith to be absurd is not what I'd call a just parable.
No there's actually a logical error on your end in this argument.
If we were to be talking strictly of a personal god you would be right. But we are talking about a god that created everything and anyone, including the nonbelievers, so the same rules apply
I never said he didn't give me anything (as I said: house, sadist cousin and a letter) but that he neglects me. And if he does communicate, he speaks a language that I don't understand. why did he create me so that I wouldn't understand him?
Yes, you mentioned house etc, but I kinda forgot that when you stated "But god hasn't given me anything...".
Anyway, look:
Islamic faith teaches that God is constantly sustaining his creation by controlling factors that give effect of sustenance for us. He also answers prayers.
As you don't believe in that, you didn't include an equivalent of it in your parallell.
Even though the parallell is supposed to reflect what MUSLIMS (etc) believe, not what YOU believe.
My point is that you are superimposing your own view of God on the image that islamic faith has of God.
And as such, that mixed-up impression looks fallacious to you. (To me too, actually)
Also, the point of my point is that it's not fair to accuse a religion for something that it's innocent of, like the fallacy you're describing while Islam is innocent from it (as it doesn't agree with the premises that you mentioned for it --- if it did, I wouldn't be right in writing this)...
I feel the same way, religion was made to keep people in line, but if there is a higher power, and not a complete fucker like the bible depicts him as, then i'll be fine. Christianity is bull SHIT!!!
There may be a higher power, but God doesn't demand praise and warship, to him, living your life respectfully and just-fully should be enough to make him content.
grabster22 1 year ago
To start with, I'd like to ask if you believe in a single first cause? And if that's something you would define as God?
I mean, do you REALLY believe in a single first cause? Or is it just "a theory" in your eyes?
(if not, then discussing about the plausibility of a Koranic God would be futile)
bornemix 2 years ago
I think we are digressing from the subject at hand. shall we continue this in PM?
TheSocraticApproach 2 years ago
Hi TSA :)
You have here argued for and against certain statements in the Koran (the bible aside...).
I'd first like to "back the tape" somewhat to first see if our premises are the same, and if not, begin by discussing those.
This ensures a more healthy and clear-cut discussion, and it would make it easier for us to reach similar conclusions.
bornemix 2 years ago
I'm very interested in what you think of my last comments.
Please tell!
bornemix 2 years ago
Sorry, I've been really busy with school this week. I'll try to give you a response tonight!
TheSocraticApproach 2 years ago
Well here we go (sorry for the late response)..
I don't share my idea of a supreme being with any of the three Abrahamic faiths. To me, a truly supreme deity woudn't be vengeful and jealous (Judaic), wouldn't have to sacrifice himself in order forgive people for breaking rules no one can possibly live by (Christianity), and isn't so insecure that he needs to be told how great he is 5 times a day (Islam)
TheSocraticApproach 2 years ago
To say that Allah is so much different from YHWH or Jehovah is simply ignorant to be honest. Let's take a look at those prohibitions the Qur'an dictates:
1. Allah is the one true God, you shall have no other Gods beside him.
2. You shall not deny any of the revelations of Qur'an recognized prophets.
3. You shall not feel safe in opposition of Allah.
4. You shall not lose hope in the mercy of Allah.
5. You shall not swear falsely in the name of Allah.
TheSocraticApproach 2 years ago
The list goes on and on with stuff like this (and the 10 Hebrew Commandments check in also). The point is not that God (Your God) doesn't do anything for me, he might aswel be responsible for everything good that has ever happened to me. I'd much rather have a dad that's there for me if I need him than one that's always gone and just sends me a 1000 dollar check every month. Why would I praise something that doesn't even take the time to communicate with me directly?
TheSocraticApproach 2 years ago
furthermore, the Qur'an repeatedly refers to 'Chastisement in this world and the next', 'Terrible doom' 'Awful doom' 'Cursed in this life and the hereafter' and so forth and so forth... He actually goes one step further than to just doom you if you don't love him. There's a large number of things that you will be doomed for in this list... scandalize people, lying, drink alcohol, not praying 5 times a day, break a promise, eat pork, Not going to Mecca when you are able to.
TheSocraticApproach 2 years ago
Why does this God (Your God) send prophets to express his message and will? Why doesn't he communicate with every person individually? Surely a supreme, omnipotent being could, and should, do this? He must see how confusing it would become when there's several thousand 'prophets' saying several thousand different things..
TheSocraticApproach 2 years ago
@TheSocraticApproach But if God really did talk to the prophets, and they arnt just full of bullshit, then they'd all have the same fucking story, not all diffrent ones. And if he we're to talk to us, he'd talk to all of us, not just a certain few, he "loves us all" apparently, even rapists...
grabster22 1 year ago
All three religions come from the same origin. Don't think I'm singling your religion out... I think they're all crazy.
TheSocraticApproach 2 years ago
Hi.
To bake the three abrahamic faiths together might not reflect good upon yourself as an intellectual.
In Islam we are admonished to be thankful to God for the things that he gave us - not for other things. In this respect, I think your "God/Dad" parallell doesn't give the "abrahamic faiths" (quotation marks because they probably differ somewhat at this point) any justice.
Don't you agree?
Don't superimpose fallacies of Chr. and/or Jd. on Islamic faith without first confirming. No?
Cheers
bornemix 2 years ago
I might have to clarify that last comment. You say that we have to be grateful for the things god gave us. But god hasn't given me anything. The things that I have accomplished in life have either been self obtained, or sent anonymously (e.g. luck/chance etc) And isn't god most often referred to as 'the father'?
TheSocraticApproach 2 years ago
Hi TSA :)
I think you're taking my feedback as a bit too aggressive, if you did, please accept my apologies --- trying to be constructive. :)
---
I didn't mean to tell you that YOU NEED TO be thankful for what God has given YOU.
(You don't believe in God, so that would be kind of pointless)
What I'm trying to say is that: When you criticize a group of entities you need to have VERIFIED that the points you're addressinging are general to all members of that group.
Fair enough?
bornemix 2 years ago
But to come to my conclusion, I think you are a very moderate, tolerant muslim (you might even be dutch!;) ) and if we were to have any type of religious people in our world, your type would probably be very high on my list.
So I guess this video doesn't really apply all that much to you, it more or less goes out to the fundamentalists out there, and the people that believe everyone MUST bow before god, because... well.. he's god. whatcha gonna do about him being god? nothing, thats what.
TheSocraticApproach 2 years ago
Hi,
(I'm swedish)
Here's the logical error in your parallell:
You see an absurdity in an obligation to be thankful to God. This is because you see it as God hasn't given you anything.
Notwithstanding that it's impossible to believe that something inexistent ever gave you anything,
you are presenting your personal belief about God not giving you anything as a premise for abrahamic faith! And letting that be the indirect reason for faith to be absurd is not what I'd call a just parable.
no?
bornemix 2 years ago
No there's actually a logical error on your end in this argument.
If we were to be talking strictly of a personal god you would be right. But we are talking about a god that created everything and anyone, including the nonbelievers, so the same rules apply
I never said he didn't give me anything (as I said: house, sadist cousin and a letter) but that he neglects me. And if he does communicate, he speaks a language that I don't understand. why did he create me so that I wouldn't understand him?
TheSocraticApproach 2 years ago
Sorry, I made an error there.
Yes, you mentioned house etc, but I kinda forgot that when you stated "But god hasn't given me anything...".
Anyway, look:
Islamic faith teaches that God is constantly sustaining his creation by controlling factors that give effect of sustenance for us. He also answers prayers.
As you don't believe in that, you didn't include an equivalent of it in your parallell.
Even though the parallell is supposed to reflect what MUSLIMS (etc) believe, not what YOU believe.
bornemix 2 years ago
My point is that you are superimposing your own view of God on the image that islamic faith has of God.
And as such, that mixed-up impression looks fallacious to you. (To me too, actually)
Also, the point of my point is that it's not fair to accuse a religion for something that it's innocent of, like the fallacy you're describing while Islam is innocent from it (as it doesn't agree with the premises that you mentioned for it --- if it did, I wouldn't be right in writing this)...
bornemix 2 years ago