F-104 Starfighter Flight

[justforever96]

So why is it that the ground crew stands next to the plane and waits until the RPM's reach a certain point (40%? 50%?). The pilot signals him, and it looks like he detaches something. I assume it started with compressed air; does the engine not sustain itself until it's running at 50% rpms, or what? I never noticed that before.

[TokioHotelAnti]

The Starfighter was the biggest fail in the german army's history

[justforever96]

@TokioHotelAnti I think I could think of a number of bigger fails in German military history. Stalingrad comes to mind. The Battle of Britain. Etc, etc. Buying the wrong plane is pretty mild in comparison. And they didn't loose a war because of it.

[MsAchmedtheterrorist]

Geile Soundkulisse stellt euch mal auch da ohne Gehörschutz daneben.

[GreenMamba2011]

@MsAchmedtheterrorist

Hab die Dinger als Kind live erlebt wenn die über unser Haus geflogen sind.Da haben die Gläser in den Schränken gewackelt.

[LilaBomber]

that damned thing wasn`t a bad one,it was just used the wrong way.

One of the mainreasons why it crashed simply was because it was overloaded.Its short wings were just not able to carry the load of a bomber.

But it had an increadeble sound.I remember them flying over our house in the 70s ,low level at supersonic speed,and a few seconds later there was the big bang.Good old times.

[justforever96]

Has anyone else ever thought about how odd it is that the pilot enters an F-104 from the RIGHT, rather than the usual left? Ever since before WWI, cockpits have traditionally been entered from the left...supposedly a holdover from the days of the cavalry, when troopers were trained to mount from the left. I always wondered why Kelly Johnson designed it that way. Also, what is that store on the planes centerline pylon? You can see it well at 3:31. Is that practice bombs? A camera pod?

[garyswest]

Great video - looks like RAF Wittering to me.

[powerofthroughts]

it is really a small plane;

[justforever96]

@powerofthroughts It is a really small plane with a really BIG engine! LOL, that's why she's so fast. But it's also the main reason the USAF dropped it so quick (not because it was dangerous). Small size means that there's no room for upgrades or expansion, and fuel and payload are limited. The USAF likes multi-purpose machines, so the Starfighter wasn't ideal. It's amazing that the Italians managed to give it Sparrows...by removing the cannon to fit the avionics! The MiG-21 is even smaller.

[powerofthroughts]

@justforever96 Mig21 is not a small plane.

[justforever96]

@powerofthroughts Uh...yes, actually, the MiG-21 IS a small plane, for a military fighter. That's why it's always had such crappy range...no room for fuel. It's empty weight is only a bit over 10,000lbs, vs 14,000lbs for the F-104. It's loaded weight is about 16,000lbs, vs 21,000lbs for the F-104. A MiG-29 Fulcrum weighs 24,000 empty/37,000lbs loaded. An F-16 weighs 19,000/26,000. An F-15 weighs 28,000/44,500. Are you comparing the MiG-21 to a Cessna? Maybe you're thinking of another plane.

[AmdiT]

Thanks for the upload. WOnderful video.. I put the volume for full throttle:0)) Miss this great jet in the danish skies..

[justforever96]

Okay, so is it me, or is the ground crewman standing in front of the intakes as the jet runs up courting death? I mean, it only hits like 30% RPMS, but still....I'd be nervous as hell. I guess it's not much worse than people standing right next to a spinning prop, but still. Haven't you seen the Navy footage of the guy getting sucked into an A-6's intake? He lives, but barely. Maybe the ground crewmen feel that if the F-104 is going to be a "Widowmaker", why let the pilots get all the credit?LOL

[bobcat188]

Way back when when I was getting my initial training they briefly covered the subject so I'll pass on what I remember. Believe it or not, the danger is not as bad as you think for the rampie in this case due to the configuration of the 104. The intake is high enough that there he can't block it, which is when people get sucked up. The other benefit to the type, is that there is a second intake for the single engine, so it's always getting air. Single engine single intake, is far more deadly.

[justforever96]

@bobcat188- So where you a "rampie" or a pilot? Cool job either way, if you ask me. But that makes sense about having to "cover" the intake to get sucked in. It's like putting your hand near the tip of a vacuum hose...you don't really feel much until your like an inch away, and suddenly...SHHHLUKK! LOL, only a lot more so with a J79. And twin intakes would make things a lot better. Air follows the path of least resistance. I wonder if one covered only 1 intake, the suction would be 1/2 as much?

[bobcat188]

I was a rampie, but not on the 104; left the military and now I'm a pilot. I don't remember the answer to your question though, although I think they may have covered it. Either way, blocking an intake on a J-79 or the F-404 I'm used to, is not conducive to longevity.

[justforever96]

@bobcat188- "Not conducive to longevity"...LOL. I guess there's a lot of things about flying that are potentially not conducive to longevity. And that can apply to the plane OR the person, for that matter! Sucking in little bits of ground crew probably doesn't do a turbine engine much good. In any case, that was just an idle sort of question. I was just thinking that technically, the engine doesn't "suck" you in...the atmosphere's 15psi PUSH you in!

[justforever96]

P.S.- An "F-404" is a turbofan, right? Isn't that from the Hornet? And the Super Hornet is the -414? Or do they use those in other planes too? Of course I may be just remembering things all wrong; I've always been a piston-engine man. I'm trying to change that though. The F404 is a 2-spool, reheating, low-bypass-ratio turbofan, or "leaky turbojet", it's modular, long and narrow, and the accessories mount to the airframe so they aren't "handed". Did I get it all right? It's been a while.

[bobcat188]

It is indeed from the Hornet; other than that I can't help you. Engines weren't my trade so other than where, when, and how to add oil to them and how to check them for damage; I didn't know anything about them

[jensoramy]

@justforever96 Not as bad as it looks. You just don't get to close. I played that game for four years, I was a crew man like that.

[justforever96]

Funny, I never liked the Starfighter much, but it's kind of addictive. It's like an old English MG sports car...kind of dangerous and bad-handling, but still very, very cool and fun to drive. Only the Starfighter is like 200 times faster. Ouch. Maybe the danger is part of the attraction? I can;t help but notice it has this cult following. If you like the F-104, you REALLY like the F-104! LOL, sort of. Anyway, I'd drive a Starfighter to work if I could. That would be cool...

[pierstheoneandonly]

@justforever96

Hmm, nice idea but on balance I think I'd sooner have a MiG-21 to 'drive to work'.

[justforever96]

@pierstheoneandonly Yeah...I hear you. I like the MiG-21 a lot too. Both the F-104 and the MiG-21 were designed to similar specs, and are very much the same in a lot of ways. I guess of the two, the MiG is the better plane, operationally speaking. It's easier to fly (especially land!), more maneuverable, about the same performance. But to me, the Starfighter is a bit more appealing, in looks, and for it's dangerous qualities. Now I just have to figure out how to get a 2-mile runway at my work!

[phileustace]

Excellent video !!!!!!!! 10/10

[ouaquede]

This is some great footage! Thanks for sharing!

[HeidiLandRover]

Fantastic!  Been playing that on full volume :¬)

[giopa79]

bei tempi!a decimomannu venivano spesso.grande f104 GERMANY!

[massimovolpe]

Ricordo una rivista JP4 che parlò di una esercitazione a Decimomannu,F104 Germany e Italiani defender,F16 e F15 agressor beh non ci crederete ma gli abbiamo fatto il culo.

MITICO SPILLONE

[giopa79]

ahah!!si questa storia è vera!ma i duelli per eccellenza son stati tra mig29 e f15 14 16 18!!visita il sito non ufficiale base aerea decimomannu!!ciaoo!!

[blauerdo]

Schade, dass das Video so gestaucht ist. Somit kommt die Schönheit dieses Fighters gar nicht so zur Geltung. Ansosnsten gute Aufnahmen, die manche Erinnerung zurückbrachte as 20 hrs 'Jet Passenger'.

[Pikschwarz]

Ja, schade das das Vid jetzt so gestaucht ist. War mal ganz "normal" über die komplette Breite hier zu sehen. Weis auch nicht was damit los ist!

[aruju01]

For those who are intersted, I have some video footage of a F-104 J79-11A engine being run on my test cell. (One of the "Starighter Group's" engines, out of Florida.) I hope to post the video on here soon, as it really demonstrates the classic "screech" coming off the variable exhaust nozzle. Makes your blood curdle, that god awfull sound. Not nice. BTW, approximately 40 of these engines soldier on in industrial applications worldwide, pumping gas, and generating electricity.

[aruju01]

On the ground, 80% of the "howl" comes from the engine inlet, 20% from the variable exhaust nozzle. In the airframe, 100% from the engine inlet. Check out "S&S Turbines", one of the movie clips has a J79 engine in full A/B, and you can hear the "howl" exactly the same, but a bit more detailed. The airframe does contribute to the noise, nut most of it is a characteristic of the J79 engine. The -11 eleven engines were the loudest. The -19's in the Italian F104s were quieter, & cleaner.

[ravenshire43]

I've heard the F104 was referred to by military types as 'howling howland'. J79 engine have anything to do with the distinct sound? From listening to a few vids with sound of the F104 at speed, almost sounds to my ears like a combination of engine and airframe noise/howling.

[denmalski]

if you moved the inlet cones on the air intakes at a certain rpm this would cause what some would call 'the wounded moose call' pilots were told not to do this but you can't stop someone from having fun, this had to be done on the ground because at flight speed theere would be enough air going through the intakes to cancel this effect.

[justforever96]

@denmalski The F-104 had fixed inlet cones...how could you move them on the ground to make a "moose call"? I figured it must have something to do with hitting a certain RPM/throttle combo at the right time.

[justforever96]

@denmalski That's very interesting. I remember reading the same thing you said about the pilots sliding the intakes back and forth to make the "moose calls" back when I first got into the F-104, but then I read in a number of places that it had "fixed intakes", which makes sense, since the Dassault-type "souris" half-cone intakes supposedly self-regulate the Mach 2 shock waves...I believe the ones on Mirages are fixed, anyway. Perhaps there's more than 1 definition of "fixed intake"?

[tdrelli]

@justforever96 3 words "cool story bro"

[justforever96]

@tdrelli Uh...what?

[justforever96]

@denmalski Anyway, here are a few quotes:

"The F-104 was designed to use the General Electric J79 turbojet engine, fed by side-mounted intakes with fixed inlet cones optimised for supersonic speeds. Unlike some supersonic aircraft, the F-104 does not have variable-geometry inlets."

(the NF-104A) "The air intakes originally designed by Ben Rich were of the same fixed geometry as the F-104A but included extensions to the inlet shock cones for optimum jet engine operation at higher Mach numbers."

[justforever96]

@denmalski And more:

"...the F-104, which is an interceptor requiring less maneuvering than the F-4 or F-15, has a fixed, semi-conical, two-step inlet cone and fixed inlet lip. The F-104 operates from zero velocity up to Mach 2.2 and is probably optimized for a narrow flight profile, being an interceptor. In order to engage an enemy aircraft the F-104 is still required to perform a range of maneuvers at various altitudes, velocities, and angles of attack.

[denmalski]

@denmalski I'm sorry after I went back to double check my sources I found that I made a booboo. it wasn't the shock cone that is moving but the guide inlet veins that move. they shift at 80% rpm and that causes the 104 howl. I thought that was the name of the shock cone. the 104 also an excellent low level one pass haul ass nuclear strike fighter. to this day the 104 holds the fastest low level speed record.

[justforever96]

@ravenshire43 I don't know about military types ever calling the F-104 "Howling Howland", but NASA owns a single F-104 chase plane that has been given that name. And yes, it is indeed because the sound of the J79.

[skisandhorses]

Agree fully that the sound of this beauty has to be heard - not music. My husband flew the CF-104 in Germany (439 sqn. Baden), Canada (417 sqn. Cold Lake) and taught at the FW school at Luke AFB Phoenix, flying the German 104. He also wrote "Starfighter - A Loving Retrospective" after it was retired in Canada. This a/c was his mistress. He is away, but will show him your video when he returns - he'll love it! Thanks for posting it.

[wegfdfhz]

Hi, if your husband is a certain Mr Bashow, then i have the book and haven't been able to put it down in all the years i have had it! Brilliant, a very informative, colourful and humorous book. R.W.

[skisandhorses]

I call him David ;o)

but yes, that's him. I did the editing on the book so know it well. He will be glad you have enjoyed it - thanks!

[denmalski]

Ive got that book as well and I must say it's my favorite book on my favorite plane, my copy is being held together with duct tape. I love the reference of the pilot calling the 104 the aluminum death tube very funny

[hotdog2020]

I have a 30 inch plastic Model of this. German markings, the unit number is different but evrything else is dead on.Very very awesome jet.

[judgegixxer]

Wicked plane in all aspects of the word. My favorite. Anyone know what year they were retired in Canada?

[gnteichrib]

It was retired in 1984. I "won/earned" a ride in one in the summer of 1982 when I was 16. Wicked A/C for sure!

[judgegixxer]

Cool thanks! I envy your ride in one, that must of been awesome. In 85' I got a ride in an old Harvard prop fighter. That was cool too but the 104 would have been ultimate.

[1z1q]

awesome!!! i would have killed for a ride in the "aluminum death tube" always been my favorite plane along w/B 58

[denmalski]

Canada used them for 26 yrs and the last year of operations was 1986. 441 Silver Fox sqn. in Baden west Germany.

[habinder]

1986

[lamancha2]

That thing sounded as if it was going to burst.

[stretchmark8]

thank's for this video of one of my all time favourites.i agree with drushiokan you made the right decision by not putting music on.

[Darushiokan]

Great! You didn't make the error of putting any music^^ The take off was so impressive!

[Sturmwelle]

Sehr schöne Bilder von einem der schönsten Flugzeuge, die je gebaut wurden.

[LOCKHEED2011]

ahh.....what.

[antonweixler]

sehr beeindruckende Bilder aus meinem ehemaligen

Geschwader Jabog34 in Memmingen. Habe es erst jetzt gefunden. Hier kommen alle alten Erinnerungen hoch. War damals im Geschwadergefechtsstand bei der Flugbetriebsstaffel später Stab fliegende Gruppe.

[aluovercast]

Ever so nice. No beat, just original sound. Reminiscing Volkel AB, early eighties. "The sound of freedom" in those days.

[dugystube]

Are these the guys from Memmingen? I partied with that squadron back in the 80's - Great folks!

[DerMessermann]

No this jet is from "JG 31 Boelke" in Nörvenich, near cologne.

[dondylein]

Sorry but these jets are clearly from JBG34. JBG31 had its patch on the tail and not on the intakes as JBG34

[leadsolo]

Ohhhhhhhhhhh Yeah - Love the Sound of this video - THIS the best Music Track !!! :3D

[VL0X]

nice engine sound

[hotdog2020]

finnaly no music love the sound of these jets. i have a 40" model of this plane. really awesome looking plane. has german markings.

[thesungoesdown50]

Great to see a vid without music added. The J79 IS real music to the ears. F104, Gone but never forgotten.

[thiagosbbr]

In the video the ´pilot is taxiing with "remove before flight" or its my impression ?

[cmtecarvalho]

In some countries (like Italy) the "Remove Before Flight" tapes are removed shortly before the takeoff. A ground crew team is placed near each runway threshold for that purpose.

[thiagosbbr]

ah interessante. oq não é o caso do Brasil...

[cmtecarvalho]

É verdade... Da mesma forma, logo após o pouso o piloto dá uma parada após livrar a pista para que as fitas sejam colocadas antes mesmo da aeronave chegar à rampa.

[SenorSpode]

My red rubbers all say "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT". ;-)

[Sphynx25]

They are usually taxing to the so-called "last chance"-position, which is a ramp area near the runway. A ground crew there removes all the tapes and arms the weapons. :)

[cmtecarvalho]

"Technical problems"??? I always heard about human failure, especially during landings (like the german pilots forgot they were flying a "missile" and tryed to get too slow)...

[tritop]

292 senile german pilots ? German version was much to heavy thus difficult to control

[cmtecarvalho]

Oh yeah? The Belgians also used the Golf version and their accident rate was much lower than the one in Luftwaffe.

[tritop]

So 1/3 of of the German pilots where somewhat retarded, we have to inform Lufthansa urgently for gods sake

[justforever96]

@cmtecarvalho I've HEARD that the Luftwaffe had such a poor accident rate compared to some others because the Germans didn't really HAVE much of an airforce after WWII. They had a bunch of old/obsolete jets, and then went straight to a Mach 2 "hot ship" like the F-104...it was hard to adjust. I admit, maybe it was the same for the Belgians; I don't know. I think that training methods and operations played a part...the accident rate varied a lot for different countries. It's not a "racial" thing.

[jensoramy]

@justforever96 Not half off the truth. In all actuality the aircraft was overloaded with computer equipment and became hard to handle and very unforgiving to pilots mistakes. It killed a lot of good guys. I was there from 81 to 85 in the GAF.

[justforever96]

@jensoramy Oh, no doubt that the F-104 was a dangerous machine in all versions, the G especially. I was just saying that it wasn't impossible to fly, and some users managed relatively low loss rates. I don't think that the Luftwaffe lost so many because Germans are inherently bad at flying fast jets though...there must some other variable at work to explain this.

[denmalski]

@justforever96 one main factor in the German losses was they skipped a generation of maintaining and operating an effective air force due to restrictions after WWII, also flying at high speed at low altitude with one pilot with no terrain following radar led to many lawn dart situations. the aircraft was rarely the problem, an overtasked pilot was.

[mailnutzerschmidt]

The German Luftwaffe operated a total of 916 F-104G between 1960 and 1990. 292 of them crashed, mostly due to technical problems, resulting in the deaths of 116 pilots.

This isn't exactly what I would call a "brilliant" record.

[jensoramy]

@mailnutzerschmidt Most crash victims I saw and heard of in the early eighties were in the matter of fact pilot errors.

[orobian]

Rubbish? Yes, now, but consider that its first flight was in the '50s.....it was the best fighter for those times, then the needs changed.

[FlamerK6]

starfighters may look great but technically they are rubbish... nice footage though

[messerman]

Thhese are the F-104 "G" Starfighters. A special Version for the German Luftwaffe. Nice footage.

[royzee]

Anything on the F104 is welcome here! Brilliant, thanks!