Singapores health system saves money and lives

[kmgilroy89]

Best model in world. It erases almost all of the problems of both the US and Europeans models.

[Thetruthishere11]

The USA needs more doctors. Remove AMA cartel. Open up pricing with transparency.

That's the only solution. Free market works but we don't try it.

[ch1kusoo]

this is the system that the U.S. or even Canada should look at because it provides a fair compromise to consevatives and liberals.

Ron Paul have been preaching for health care savings account for a long time. Also, he supports a high deductible insurance plan to compliment the savings account. Singapore's system is basically that.

[goodjmate]

I'm from Singapore. It works for us coz we have just about everything that is structured and regulated hence HC success is achievable.

I can say that it won't ever work for the US for the 2 reasons it doesn't have as i've said earlier.

Americans generally never like regulation. So without regulation, you can't ever have a reliable structure in place to support .... just about anything like... financial & security stability or even a proper healthcare system.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

Yes, America should be more like Singapore; All we have to do is shed 295 million citizens and the Constitution.

Good luck with that. Let us know how it works out for you...

[uche007us]

you miss the point. We dont need to shrink our population to 4m, all we need to do is take our blueprint from the system instead of bring up Canada and Britian systems like thats what we are aiming for

It has everything going for it, cover everyone, comes with a co-pay, run by private companies, single payer and subsidized by the govt.

how can you not like it?

[VerbotenDingleberry]

In a word, Force.

I'm just not happy when someone, who happens to need votes, puts a gun to my head, takes my money and tells me he can spend it better than I can, on his constituents.

Call me a skeptic.

[wildpeachatl737]

But here's the thing, it isn't simply just about you. Your representative has to think about not just you, but his entire constituency.

The Constitution says, "we the people", not I. All religious teachings talk about charity and helping one's fellow man, but when I see the discussion threads by those who uphold and follow such teachings, I don't hear it in the conversations. All I hear is me.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

Do you own you or do I own you? (And if No One owns you then how does anyone have a "Right" to your time and property?)

It is clear that you do not understand the concept of Rights or the difference between Charity and Armed Robbery for Charitable Causes.

Read "The Law" by Frederick Bastiat and get back to me.

[wildpeachatl737]

I never said it was a right, but as a member of a nation it is a responsibility and that sometimes means taking the 'I' out of the conversation and placing the 'we' in it.

I may take your suggestion and read that book, but I doubt I'll ever be getting back to you on that. You appear to be a bit too condescending for me to have a conversation with, but thanks for the offer.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

If it's not a right then how can you justify the use of Law (essentially the use of Force) to make me do it?

That's the point.

Look, I don't mean to be condescending; I just can't imagine how anyone over 30 can not understand the basic concept of Rights and their relationship to Law.

Try this;

If you can force me by Law to pay for your back surgery then why not your food, home, car, internet porn, etc?

The Collectivist end-game is a giant, moderately comfortable, secure Prison.

[wildpeachatl737]

I can't argue the point with you as we are coming from two different POV's. What you are calling force, I see as responsibility.

The health of the nation speaks to the strength of that nation. I much rather pay for you being healthy so that you can avoid back surgery, as it saves me money in the long-run vs. paying for your surgery because of your neglect.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

If I refuse to be "responsible" (by your definition with which I may disagree) and you put a gun to my head to make me be "responsible" that is the line between responsibility and force.

Responsibility can not be legislated. Only Force can.

Call them what you will...

[wildpeachatl737]

But in other aspects of life, you are subject to laws, controls and others that do restrict what you can do and yet you don't rail at that. Does this particular legislation prevent you from living your life or infringe on your right to be?

There are cultural customs that some may feel they have the right to practice, but we have laws that say they cannot. Is that not using force to subvert? Is that then wrong?

[VerbotenDingleberry]

Once again, it's the nature of the specific law that matters. If the law is used to preserve the rights of an individual then it is just. If it acts to violate the rights of an individual then it is unjust.

Now, to the core of the matter; What are your Rights? There are just three; Life, Liberty, Property.

If the Law does not serve only to protect those individual rights then it has no place in a society that professes to value Freedom.

Are we Slaves to the State or Free Men?

[wildpeachatl737]

I probably wouldn't be the best person to answer that last questioned posed, as I'm Black and it's a bit abstract for me to refer to a document that initially excluded my ancestors. Many of us minorities are still fighting for this even now. I'm just getting used to the concept, I suppose.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

" Does this particular legislation prevent you from living your life or infringe on your right to be?"

To be very specific, here is how it harms me; it takes money from me by force and hands it to another. When done by an individual that is often referred to as "theft".

We have a limited time on earth. We own that time. We spend that time to gain wealth through effort. We therefore own that wealth as an extention of our very life force. Taking my money = taking (some) of my life.

[wildpeachatl737]

I would interpret that to mean that you don't wish to pay any taxes on anything as that would fall under your classification as theft.

I just don't see it that way because although you are having something technically 'taken away', you're also given something of benefit back in return in regards to the health care issue.

Oh dear, you don't own time - it's given to you to do the best you can with it, as it can be taken away as quickly as it's given.

[wildpeachatl737]

We seem to have a different belief system as well as I don't subscribed to the notion that man's purpose and design is to simply create wealth. Wealth has no bearing on who I am nor was it ever an essential element for me to live on Earth. All we ever needed for that was provided when it was created. If you equate money with a part of your life force, then I'm sorry - I really can't relate.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

And if I never get sick? Or pay taxes for decades and die suddenly before I need any elderly care?

Etc...

It just won't fly. Roads, Military, FBI, CIA, Trade agreements and a few other basics. That's all they have any Constitutional or moral right to do with confiscated money...

[wildpeachatl737]

No one can anticipate such events. if we could, we'd be having a totally different discussion. Like I said, it's not about the 'I', it's about the 'we'.

If you feel that taking money from you is force in the matter of health care, then it should also apply to the same examples you provided. You can't pick and choose or straddle the fence and remain consistent in your belief.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

I've made it painfully clear how some functions of government are legitimate and others, clearly, are not. If Healthcare should be supplied by the federal government under force of law then why not Food? Housing? Internet Porn?

That's the problem with Collectivist thought; eventually the State *will* supply those things. Nothing would please your Masters more than total control. And you're walking right into it.

[FriedDaisy]

VerbotenDingleberry: how is it that you can't see the dangers of allowing corporations to attain more wealth and power than our own government (unless you do see it and are pretending not to for political reasons)? Have you never heard of Corporatism, Crony Capitalism, Oligarchies, etc? If we don't do something to stop Corporate America's agenda it will eventually squeeze our government, The Constitution, and our freedom out of existence.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

Anyone who trusts the men with Laws and Guns over the men with Goods and Services is hopelessly blind.

Corporations use a powerful government to rig the game. Without Congressmen to bribe they have no more power than you or I. And they can't use Guns and Laws to force their will on you; only Government can do that.

Sadly, the Government has convinced the weak minded people that Freedom is the Enemy and Security is the only thing that matters.

Prisons are quite secure. Enjoy yours...

[FriedDaisy]

VerbotenDingleberry: a wise man always flips his own argument around & asks himself which side of the argument is most likely to be true.

Look at what's been happening in our nation in the last 18 months and what we've learned about it. Ever heard of corporatism?

If you don't think the corporate crash & Bush's Bailout Bonanza for his buddies in banking & on Wall St. weren't strategically planned to occur right when Obama was to be elected (they knew who'd win) then you're hopelessly blind.

[FriedDaisy]

Actually it's Corporate America's representatives in government-- in the guise of the people's representatives-- that are trying to convince us to throw away The Constitution & government / governance described within its passages & Bill of Rights in favor of a corporate employee handbook.

Corporations have been rigging the game for 100yrs. Starting with the corporate owned FED and it's friend, the IRS; and the slow but steady privatization of all government programs & services.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

You just proved that Government is in bed with Coproprations and you still want to give them control of your health?

The answer is Less Government, not more. If you must repeat history to relearn that lesson again, go for it....

[FriedDaisy]

VerbotenDingleberry: The answer is booting corporatists, lobbyists & their lawyers out of gov, unprivatizing government programs / services, & tearing down "too big to fail" monopolies; and reinstating Glass Steagall, the Fairness Doctrine, & the consumer protections revoked under prior admins; and enacting the Employees Free Choice Act, single payer health insurance, real campaign / election reform, & fixing immigration laws; and overturning the War Commissions Act, Patriot Act, FISA, etc . . .

[VerbotenDingleberry]

ROFLMAO.

Good luck with that. Let us know how that works out for you. What a nice little Communist you'd make. Fairness Doctrine indeed, lol....

[FriedDaisy]

VerbotenDingleberry, if I'm a communist (you probably meant socialist) then you must be a fascist corporatist. You know there is a sliding scale between the extreme ends of the political spectrum.

The Fairness Doctrine held accountable and curbed viscous hate & fear mongers like the GOP's backdoor Swift Boaters, Limbaugh, Coulter, O'Reilly, Savage and others from blatantly spreading lies as truth on the PUBLIC AIRWAVES which frighten Americans into voting against their own self interest.

[FriedDaisy]

The Fairness Doctrine wasn't even officially revoked or phased out. The FCC simply chose not to enforce it; and when Congress tried to prop it back up, Reagan vetoed their efforts. Then Bush Sr did the same. Under Clinton a bill to reinstate was passed in the House but vetoed in the Senate. Of course with Bush Jr who brought us the joys of the Patriot Act & FISA not a word was heard about reinstating the Fairness Doctrine. You're a fool if you don't think we need truth on our airwaves.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

You are the kind of person willing to use force on your fellow man to make him behave as you wish. I am only willing to use force to prevent the violation of civil rights. We will never agree and people like me will always oppose the use of force to for moralistic ends.

You are worse than any Religious Zelot.

People like you make people like Hitler, Mao and Stalin possible for these mass murderers initially gained their power from the people. People like you.

[FriedDaisy]

You're what's wrong with the Rabid Right. When a pseudo-conservative w/ a fascist corporatist agenda is confronted with facts and debate you all resort to personal attacks & baseless accusations in order to derail the conversation.

If you're all about civil rights, where were you when the Bill of Rights revoking Patriot Act was being passed? How 'bout the war based on lies where Bush & Co USED FORCE ON YOUR FELLOW MAN to make him behave as he, his corporate buddies, & apparently you wished?

[FriedDaisy]

We no longer exist in a world where characters like Hitler, Mao, & Stalin are able to seize power by pure force of will, indoctrination, and emotionally driven ideas.

This is the world where leviathans like the EXXON/Mobile, J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., Walmart, General Electric, and the rest of the Fortune 500 who are in cahoots with the central bankers topple & consume whole economies, nations, and the measly life savings of individuals as if we were all pawns in a world sized chess game.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

Again, Corporations take their power from the (always and forever corrupt) Government you wish to grow.

And it you believe the days of Hilter are over then you clearly have not been paying attention (or simply find it inconvenient to your ideas to do so).

Government has killed more than 100 million of it's OWN citizens in the past century. How many people did Corporations murder? How many wars did they start?

Go ahead, trust the men with the Laws and Guns. I side with the Citizens...

[FriedDaisy]

Again, Corporations have infiltrated our government & are attempting to deconstruct The Constitution & Bill of Rights so they'll have free reign to conduct "business" as they wish. This crap about "soft fascism" is to mollycoddle people like you into exchanging your citizenship for a contract less, employee at will status which can be withdrawn without cause or notice.

Do yourself a favor & replace the word government with corporation in all your arguments & you'll be on to the truth.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

If a corporation "infiltrates" (read Bribes) a powerful government they get powerful help. If they have only a weak government then they can't use it as a weapon against their citizens.

The Government is the only entity here that can make Laws or grant favors to the Companies.

You, incredibly, wish to give more power to the real enemy.

No one is this dense. It's an act. And if it's not there is no reason to continue the discussion.

We're done.

[FriedDaisy]

VerbotenDingleberry: yes, we are done; but while we still have a viable constitution it would behoove us both to pursue with due diligence its enforcement; so that we might derail the fascist Government take over you fear and/or the fascist Corporate take over I fear.

We still have some public servants and Attorneys General with enough conviction and wherewithal to pursue the matter through proper channels. They just need enough public outrage to give them a shove in the right direction.

[VerbotenDingleberry]

We agree then; give the bastards a hard time, whoever they are.

That works.

[FriedDaisy]

It's people like you who are marching us straight into fascist corporatism.

Right now we are citizens of a nation with laws based on a constitution which affords us the right to challenge our government & governance. The problem is the United Corporate States have been using their wealth & influence to unconstitutionally obstruct us from demanding our rights be recognized.

With the way you & your ilk want to steer things we'll soon be nothing but corporate employees with no rights at all.

[FriedDaisy]

VerbotenDingleberry: Corporate America's manipulation of the markets-- strategic control of supply & demand, marking up & marking down commodities at whim, insider trading, stacking the deck in their ponzi investment schemes-- allows them to pillage & plunder the private & public wealth of the citizenry; and it is a hostile act in that it harms more of us then it benefits. The Federal Government is required to respond to & act against such aggressive acts-- not BAILOUT the criminals!

[FriedDaisy]

VerbotenDingleberry: Perhaps there should be three programs: public, private, or none. Whichever program is chosen determines how it gets paid for. If you choose private, no taxes will be deducted from your paycheck. If you choose public, taxes will be deducted from your paycheck. If you choose none you'll carry a medical credit card making it clear you've agreed to get no care w/o guaranteeing repayment-- including emergencies-- with wages garnished or savings / property seized if necessary.

[wildpeachatl737]

That is an excellent idea and compromise, FriedDaisy.

[sculptor1965]

Didn't fool me.

I lived in Singapore! I have used the medical services there. Spent 9 days in hospital because of a miss diagnoses.

Even if we leave out my experience, Singapore is a small island with 3 million people, not the United States. Name one program here the US government runs well.

Singapore is a police state with a managed population. National health care here will ruin the health industry here. We will pay more and more for less and less service. Look at the postal service!

[wildpeachatl737]

Well, if you ask most seniors, they seem to be hapy with their Medicare. Try taking that away and see how they holler.

As for the post office, since you lived in Singapore, how much did it cost for you to mail a letter or package and compare that cost to what you'd pay in America. You can't mail anything in any country for less that 50 cents.

[Bigwheels161616]

I dont care what people say, I really think the US should employ a version of this system as our Universal Healthcare system.

Any other system will be a /fail

[liquidreven]

poor people work alot harder, than rich people do. i hate that crap they say there lazy.

[rayyf69]

Thats a generalization.

[sculptor1965]

That is the Singapore/Asian mentality. You work and live or you are ostracized from society. The Singapore model works well if you all do as you are told. No chance for independent thinking there. If you happening to be young with poor health you will use up your health savings fast. This must be because you are lazy and must be removed from the drain you are causing on the system!

[eliseannville]

Not the system for the US where we have such extremes of income! I had very expensive brain surgery that would not have been possible on a tiny medisave account I might have been able to accumulate and would have died at 35. We would be much better off with a European or Canadian system that equalizes benefits no matter what your income.