Erdogan said,we started to allow air transportation to armenia in a level, we are giving back some of their properties, we close eyes to tens of thousands illegal armenians working amd living in turkey and we rennovated and allowed prayers at Akdamar Church.
We are doing these as signs of our desire to normalize relations and waiting some steps from armenians in return.
Now it became a threat in Hitchen's mouthhuh.? He is interpreting the words in a negatve way.
"There are currently 170,000 Armenians living in our country. Only 70,000 of them are Turkish citizens, but we are tolerating the remaining 100,000."
He then said "I may have to tell these 100,000 to go back to their country because they are not my citizens. I don't have to keep them in my country."
> hitchens is again wrong. erdogan said he would expell the illegal
> immigrant armenians ,not the citizens.
According to Reuters Erdogan said that he would expel 100,000 Armenians living in Turkey who are not Turkish citizens, after US and Swedish lawmakers have officially defined the Armenian genocide as, well, a genocide.
Erdogan said "I don't have to keep them in my country".
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just to be fair with erdoğan, He did not say he would get rid of all the remaining Armenians in turkey. I mean belonging to Armenian minority in turkey, but rather he made negative comments on the Armenian immigrants from Armenia who illigelly migrated to turkey. I dont like erdogan, but hitchens is abit over simplfying.
just to be fair with erdoğan, He did not say he would get rid of all the remaining armenians in turkey. I mean belonging to Armenian minority in turkey, but rather he made negative comments on the armenian immigrants from armenia who illigelly migrated to turkey. I dont like erdogan, but hitchens is abit over simplfying.
just to be fair with erdoğan, He did not say he would get rid of all the remaining armenians in turkey. I mean belonging to Armenian minority in turkey, but rather he made negative comments on the armenian immigrants from armenia who illigelly migrated to turkey. I dont like erdogan, but hitchens is abit over simplfying.
haidaraven, you couldnt be more wrong, if americans wanted to give Israel to the Pallies, then they should be willing to give america back to the indians, neither will ever happen
If Americans think Israel has a right to exist as a country,then a whole bunch if Indian nations in America would be happy to escort you off their land....as they have the same right as Israel
@HAIDARAVEN the fundamental stupidity of being a Jew is that Jewish is both a religion and a Nationality, and people will hate you if you are a Jew regardless of your belief (ex.- Holocaust) and that is why Jews do need a country, however I agree that Israel is a dumb choice for a Jewish country as it is surrounded by enemies.
@TheTexanCanadian you are quite obviously a white guy and view Indians (as I am one) a conquered people who should just STFU and take it,,,,is your view wthat the land is originally Jewish land and therefore should be returned to them??? so why dismiss the Indian rights to THEIR land?
@HAIDARAVEN both have a right to exist now, you can be against the creation back in the 1940's but now, as Hitchens says you can't just dismantle entire states
@HAIDARAVEN They're not exactly the same scenarios. Based on this logic, you can say that the Jews were in Israel thousands of years ago and were forced out by various ancient armies and, much like today's Palestinians, were nomads for a very long time. Personally, I'm not sure if I had lived in 1948 that I would have been in support of creating the state of Israel. I don't know. However, the country exists today and for us to try to dismantle it would be more destructive in the end.
I do not understand the analogy at all. Since Palestinians and Indians are the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine and North America respectively, and since the Jews and the immigrants from Europe are the foreign invaders, how can an analogy exist between the Israeli Jewish population and the American Indians?
@Jtoksa2 100,000 Arabs moved into "Palestine" durng the time of the British mandate. The land of Israel was given to the Jews since the time of Abraham.
> Jews murdered the original inhabitants of the land and took over
Did you sleep during the history class?
The number of Arabs who lost their lives in the 47-49 wars was miniscule compared to the number who fled to neighboring countries, e.g. Lebanon and the East Bank.
When the Palestinians left their homes, all of them expected to return very shortly, after their heroic Arab armies had driven the Jews into the sea.
I was actually referring to the Jews migrating to Canaan, killing everyone and then spending the next several thousand years maintaining the pretense that intermittently occupying stolen land demonstrates entitlement.
It is what it is, this is the unfortunate reality of how nations begin. However, there are still plenty of dishonest people attempting to claim the Jewish occupation is a matter of rights or morality rather than military power/money.
Also one might add that Israel has a sizable Arab minority which comprises about 20% of Israel's population.
They are the Arabs who did not leave their homes in 47-49 and become refugees, and their descendants.
Unlike the Arabs in the the territories which were occupied by Israel in the '67 war (the six day war, which the Arabs call the June war) the Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens.
> The cause is one peoples illegitimate claim to land that's already occupied.
I believe Palestine was "already occupied" by Jews before they were driven out by the Romans during the first century. At what time did their claim lose its validity?
If you think that the Jewish people's claim to the land if Israel is illegitimate, then you must believe that the PLO as well as most Arab governments were wrong when they implicitly acknowledged Israel's right to exist, for example with the Fez proposal and many, many other occasions.
For example the PLO was quite willing to recognize Israel already in the 80's, when Arafat said that the original PLO charter which calls for the destruction of Israel is "null and void".
Again, you're discussing effects and not causes. All of the political nonsense bred from this conflict is a result of one peoples claim that God gave them the land and permission to murder the indigenous population.
Such a claim is obviously ridiculous and puts them on par with any other immigrant in the region in terms of factual rights.
I did not know Zionists murdered *the* indigenous Palestinian population.
I thought that the vast majority fled (to Transjordan, Lebanon) or remained where they were. And I thought that only a small fraction of Palestinians (or Jews) were murdered.
I know Deir Yassin where Irgun are said to have killed 100-300 Palestinians.
Would you like to tell me more about how Zionists murdered *the* Palestinian population?
"The Jewish People" is a fundamental fallacy. There is no 'The Christian People' or 'The Muslim People'. Judaism is a religion adopted by various tribes and groups through out history. In 'Ancient Israel' which we don't know much about, except for Biblical accounts which should not be and are not considered historically or scientifically accurate or contextual. Humans have moved around the Globe for hundreds of thousands of years. Virtually any minority large enough could claim to be
@Jtoksa2 'returning to their ancestral homeland' if it was convenient to them and if they were articulate enough about it. The bottom line issue is that eviction and occupation of natives in the name of a fake religion and identity is totally heinous and at the very least should not be sponsored by American tax payers in any way, if for no other reason than the first amendment: 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion'
Lose? Never. Their claim was never legitimate. The Jews themselves claim they were commanded by God to attack the lands of Canaan, kill the indigenous inhabitants and occupy the land.
At best, they're on equal terms with the Arabs. They're both immigrants.
Do you think that is what Arafat thought when he declared that the original PLO charter, which called for Israel's destruction, was "null and void"?
What then do you make of the fact that Hamas, after winning the '06 election, explicitly stated that they would *not* honor any agreements made by the previous (Fatah/PLO) administration, and that they would be satisfied with nothing less that Israel's destruction?
I'm talking about causality. The (relatively) recent conflicts stem from the Jewish believe they have a divine right to occupy land that is already occupied.
Neither side has an irrefutable claim. The obvious solution is to compromise. Various versions of the two state solution have been mediated and rejected dozens of times. It's obvious that both parties are more interested in promoting the rights of their invisible friend them than a real solution.
Not the way I'd put it, but the sentiment is the same. I think neither of them has a legitimate claim, but as long as they're both occupying the land they need to figure it out.
> as long as they're both occupying the land they need to figure it out
I think the best opportunity would have been the '47 partition resolution, which would have given Israel much less than 50% of its current land area, and all the rest would have gone to the Arabs.
Unfortunately the Arabs started an all out war one day (yes, one day!) after the resolution was published, whereas the Zionists would have accepted it.
> as long as they're both occupying the land they need to figure it out
I think the best opportunity would have been the '47 partition resolution, which would have given Israel much less than 50% of its current land area, and all the rest would have gone to the Arabs.
Unfortunately the Arabs started an all out war one day (yes, one day!) after the resolution was published, whereas the Zionists would have accepted it.
Nonsense probably wasn't the right term. Obviously the attempts to resolve the problem aren't nonsense. I used that term out of frustration for the idiocy involved in causing this conflict to begin with.
I'm referring to the Jewish account of their claim to the land, as documented in the Torah. This is where their claim comes from and what caused the current incarnation of the conflict.
It's also a large part of why the problem remains unresolved. When you have Rabbi's in the Israeli army claiming that the current occupants of Palestine are descendants of Amalek and other such nonsense. All of the political and military conflict that we see are the result of these kinds of nonsensical beliefs.
I do not think that religion has played a huge part in Israel's politics.
Begin and Sharon, for example, had policies starting from 1977 to invest heavily to the West Bank, whose sole purpose was to make sure that no future Israeli government could relinquish it even if they wanted to :-)
Those men were not religious fanatics (or Orthodox Jews even), they were 100% pragmatists.
> Rabbi's in the Israeli army claiming that the current occupants of
> Palestine are descendants of Amalek and other such nonsense
Israel's biggest religious party (Sephardic Torah Guardians, what a funny name) has 11 Knesset seats at this time, and the second biggest has 5, out of a total of 120 seats.
For comparison, Hamas's popularity in the West Bank and Gaza is probably at least 50%, and they truly *are* religious fanatics.
@Jtoksa2 The UN has no right to devide someone's land in to two and give it to someone else. Even if they did, the Zionists had no intentions of living on only half. They wanted the whole thing from the beginning. If you know anything about Zionism, you'd know that. Not only did they want more than Palestine, they wanted all of Jordan as well. They eventually gave up on in it in the 70s when it seemed unrealistic. Now they have their eyes on the West Bank.
> Even if they did, the Zionists had no intentions of living on only half
Here you are accusing the Zionists of something they "would have done" if the Arabs had not started the '47-'49 war.
Unfortunately Israel did not have an opportunity to show whether they would have been content with living in peace with the Arabs after '47 because the Arabs made that option unavailable to them by starting the war.
This occurred one (!) day after the '47 UN plan was made public.
@Jtoksa2 I'm from Israel, (4th generation, mind you) and I don't believe Jewish people have an ethnic or racial identity. It is all religious. Of course co-coreligionists intermingle and inter-breed, but the fact that they created an identity in Europe over 1000 years with Judaism as the base gives them no right to evict already established communities in some kind of biblical messianic complex.
What do you think about the proposals of territorial division between Israel and the Palestinians which the PLO made and/or backed during the 80's and 90's?
For example the Fez proposal, the Oslo peace process?
What makes you think that I "believe them"? Maybe you misunderstood my comment?
As to believing the Arabs, it will suffice to say that when Hamas won the '06 election, one of their first actions was to announce that they would not honor any agreements made the previous (Fatah/PLO) administration.
The Arabs are great negotiation partners, aren't they?
it is the treaty between mohamad and the kurraish tribe (some say a jewish tribe) where he offered peace, when in effect when he was later capable he raided and anihalated that tribe.
in short, an agreement that is not worth the paper it's signed on.
@Jtoksa2 Also, I don't care how you identify yourself, however if what you believe in factually untrue: I.E. White Jews from Russia are the ancient Israelites, then I can tell you that you are wrong. If you want to believe that, that's fine - but to evict people in order to create that and then impose that identity on generations of children (like me) is heinous and I reject it. Also, you haven't posted any facts or historical insight, just typical Zionist propaganda and rhetoric
> White Jews from Russia are the ancient Israelites, then I
> can tell you that you are wrong
According to Wikipedia there are genetic studies which show that most Jews have genetic traits which are not only common to other Jews but which can be traced to the middle east.
They also claim to have shown that intermarriage has occurred much less frequently in Jewish populations than among other ethnic groups.
We have so far established that you do not agree with the notion that only a people themselves can ultimately decide whether they have a genuine identity or not (your reference to the "fake Israeli identity").
Let us therefore talk about the Palestinian identity.
Do you know what were the goals of Arab nationalists in Palestine in late 19th and early 20th centuries? Do you know how and when Palestinian national identity came to exist in the first place?
@AntitheistPOV Why can't it ever be considered that the Jews could have been, at one point in history, an indigenous population? Why are the Jews always referred to as the invaders? Honestly, none of this matters because there's no true way of knowing what happened so long ago. We can only accept the world as it is now. Israel exists. A Palestinian state needs to exist. Can we just get on with it already? There's no need to dismantle anything. Why can't we all just build together? Enough.
I'm only going by what the Jews themselves believe.
As for the reality of the situation (which is what I was getting at by bringing up the illegitimacy of their religious claims) - I agree. However, for that to happen, the Israeli's need to abandon their moral high horse and recognize that the Palestinians have as much right to be there as they do.
@AntitheistPOV It's not just the Jews who believe that. It's in many history books. Even Egyptian. No one will ever truly know. As for the other point, that's more placing blame. Many Israelis protest against their own government. Just as there are many Palestinians who have not protested against suicide bombings. Each side is to blame for various things. I wish we could all just call it a draw and move on and stop with the "Yeah, but Israel..." "Yeah, but the Palestinians..." Enough.
I'm sorry, but could you refer me to these "history books" that you claim record God granting land titles to Jews? I've never seen nor heard of one.
Forgive me if I fail to empathies as much with the Jewish state with their US military funding and vastly superior firepower. Give the Palestinians siege weapons, ballistic missiles and US funding and I'm sure they'll be happy to employ more civil means of killing people.
@RThornhill69 You love the suicide bombings. It gives you an easy excuse and helps you rationalize all the fucked up bullshit Israel does. When Begin bombed the King David Hotel dressed like an Arab, and then attempted to blame the Arabs was later rewarded by being elected Prime Minister.
@yobouysway I'm sorry I even said anything here. This is why this stalemate still exists. Both sides angry for bullshit reasons while both sides are wrong. You might think I'm pro-Israel but I'm not. Nothing I said here was defending Israel's government's actions. Yes, Israel has done some truly fucked up things. But you have to admit that the Palestinians have as well. Until both sides can accept blame for this mess, nothing will change. And by the way, both sides get U.S. funding. Both.
Why do you keep bringing up the Bible? I don't care what the Bible has to say, we're discussing reality. If you want to talk to discuss your imaginary friend, this is not the place to do it.
@AntitheistPOV The Bible is a book of prophecy. The two exiles were foretold in the Old Testament and by Jesus Himself. Also the return from the four corners of the earth and the founding a state in one day was foretold. Jesus is not imaginary. He existed on this earth and is sitting at the right hand of the Father. When the tribulation begins you have a chance to repent from your unbelief.
If you choose to believe that, that's up to you. If you want to have a discussion about reality or the video topic, let me know. I didn't come here to discuss magic and hobgoblins.
@AntitheistPOV Stop being such a eejit. Jesus existed.Even pagan Roman historians attested to His life and death. People didn't die horrible deaths in the amphitheatres for a myth.
Truly? That must mean Islam and Buddhism are also accurate. Nobody would spend 18 years being tortured in a Chinese jail cell or blow themselves up for a myth.
Now that you mention it, you must be right. Anything that anyone beliefs is obviously true by default. All I have to do now is figure out a way to convince myself I'm a billionaire and start spending!
@Jtoksa2 Why do you reject Suetonius, Josephus Tacitus and others? People did not go to their deaths in the Roman amphitheatres because they believed a myth. They believed by the witness of the apostles and the people who knew Jesus in His ministry. Christianity did not beccome well established religion until the emperor Constatine who made it an official religion of the Roman Empire...........
@Jtoksa2 While it is possible that jesus lived at some point, there is significantly less evidence for his existence than for socrate's. The important part of jesus isn't whether he existed or not, it is whether he had divine powers. There is not a single credible or substantially corroborated source to say that he was possessed of such abilities. Even if he did exist, it still means nothing,
One of the 1st century Roman emperors, Vespasian, is known to have personally performed numerous miracles, which were naturally witnessed by masses of reliable witnesses :-)
Compared to Jesus, Vespasian has the added advantage that he actually existed, whereas Jesus only may have existed.
I wonder if we should celebrate him as the true god incarnate instead of Jesus? And why aren't we? :-)
The bible is a collection of Jewish and Christian writings which teaches us that the Earth is 6000 years old, that snakes can talk, and that people can live inside whales :-)
Have you read ancient books *other* than the bible? The Epic of Gilgamesh fir example, which is probably as old as, if not older, than the oldest books in the bible?
> 100,000 Arabs moved into "Palestine" durng the time of the British mandate
Why do you place the word Palestine in quotes? Is Palestine as a geographic area somehow ambiguous? In what way?
I believe that Palestine's Jewish population numbered a little bit under one million at the end of the mandate (?) but only a fraction of that number at its beginning.
Therefore many hundreds of thousands of Jews had moved into Palestine during the mandate.
I am an Israeli and I must say that, while I don't agree with Hitchens on everything, he was honest in his criticism of Israel and didn't see the criticism as part of a plot to de-legitimize or destroy it.
@Uncle99B U got some effing nerve 2 b babbling bout dishonesty.INCREDIBLE! U r the ultimate hypocrite.All the lies U tell.All the prevarications U disseminate.& U go on and on and on and on.Don't know damn thing about any of it.Totally ignant.I said it b4 & I'm saying it again.With jackasses like U out here the Zionists have nothing 2 worry about.Ur like a man in a rowboat throwing rocks at a battleship - U have no chance.U just want 2 feel like Ur doing something when Ur just looking stupid.
by the way, Erdogan said "we could expel 40.000 armenians instantly if we wanted, but this would not be a humane approach to the issue".. what a clueless fat tard. It's like with ahmedinejad, you just play the words to your favour cause the average idiot watching FOXTV doesnt know any language except his own, which he probably cant speak any well either.
@stesta90 in his memoirs he talks about the Iraq war. He supported it for the removal of the Hussein regime. He knew what Saddam and his sadist sons were doing to the Iraqi people.
@rwm89 it does not justify the killing of 100 000 civilians.... war= collateral dameg, and that is often the civilians.. you cant justify the war on terror/irak war in any way. thats my opinion. if you have another, I dont care.
Here's what I don't get: if Judaism has rejected Christian theology, why are Christians so pro-Israel? Also, after having gone through all of the horrors of the holocaust, how can the Israeli settlers start treating people exactly how they had been treated under the Nazis? Why can't Israelis just treat the Palestinians as neighbors? "Love thy neighbor as thyself" is a maxim they claim to live by, but they don't count non-Jews as neighbors.
@giaofnature Its because thier god is amongst other imagined things an estate agent who promised them a "land flowing with milk and honey" and then "led" them to the only part in the middle east ...without oil lol. With god on your side we can love and kill without impunity. Warms the heart...but until we all evolve they will be fighting over Harry Potter for a while yet I fear.
I'm not wrong. If you do not agree that Israel's relative wealth has arised as a consequence of the economic backing its lord protector USA and others in Europe have given to it, furthermore, if you cannot see that the democratic system it is built upon has been imported by the U.S political ideology it is modelled on, then you my friend are blind. No matter how much they have suffered and overcome the jews are not the chosen people, they are not special and should not be treated as such.
Joh 4:22 "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." So much intellect; so little understanding! "Man that is in honour and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish." Psa 49:20 Was it not a Jewish woman who was chosen to provide the Messiah for the salvation of a seed?
Christopher went to far by saying that the activists were friends of Hamas. There were canadians, americains, spanish and french on those boats. And to say, Turkey is no friend whit Hamas...
Sorry if my english could sound incorrect as it is not my first language.
@vide0gameCaster How does that matter? The London bombers were all born in the UK. Where you are born doesn't necessarily govern your political views. Sure Turkey is no friend of Hamas, to believe so would just be ignorant, but to think that ment that not a single person in Turkey could have sympathies for them is naive.
@S2Cents If you go to buy a beamer and there's an excellent salesman, does that mean the car is just a pile of zionist lies?
@interwebcrusader Of course that there is a possibility that some of them could mentally support the ideology of Hamas. But how could Hitchens be so sure on that, did he interview each of them? He totaly go on a generalisation and said that the activists are friend of Hamas. And after an inspection of ONU to check if there are some dangerous materials that Hamas could find an use, they find none. I'm a great fan of Hitchens but I can sure disagree on some points that he say.
@SkullKing11841 We can say the samething about Turkey, just because they are muslims do not mean that they are friend whit hamas. My question is, how can Hitchens be sure about their motivation? Did he interview each of them and ask if they sympathize whit Hamas? Or is it a prejudice to say that those who are propalestinian are necessarily friend whit Hamas?
@vide0gameCaster I would like to know to, but i know he has most of his life sympathized with the Palestinians and thinks the idea and creation of Israel was a stupid, he also support the Kurdish.
There are no final solutions , there is no absolute truth, there is no supreme leader, there is no totalitarian solution, that says that if you will just give up your freedom of inquiry, if you simply abandon your critical faculties, the world of idiotic bliss can be yours. You may lose the faculties, you may not know as a result, that the idiotic bliss is even more idiotic than it looks.
Humans are part of the great ape family. We are creatures that can't seem to coexist peacefully. We're jealous, greedy, territorial animals. And these factions of ape fight over ownership of dirt. They defend their "holy" books which is ape made superstitious nonsense. Read the Bible and Quran and become the atheist you already are. Grow up, or lose everything. forever.
@esraretin It's a human instinct to say: "Don't foul your own nest". And the Turkish state made the heinous events of 1915 a taboo and lied to their population for 80 years now, fearing the general shame and Armenian reparation claims. Go to Wikipedia, type "Armenian Genocide", read all or at least the chapter
"Contemporaneous reports and reactions": Reports from various foreign diplomats and witnesses of that time (i.e from America and Germany (Turkey's ally in WW I ) - it's very obvious.
notice how many people died because of bad health ,food situation in Turkey.
it wasnt genocide ,historians like Mc Carthy,Bernard Lewis say it
its not very obvious its about definition because genocide has no exact definition, ok then wht Armenians did to Turks before 1915 was genocide too!? and search for massacre of HOCALI .its not that old .they killed Azeri kids,women in Hocalı.believe wht u want believe i dont care
@esraretin Citing Wikipedia: "Law professor Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term "genocide" in 1943, [did so] with the fate of the Armenians in mind ... Several international organizations [said] the term "genocide" aptly describes "the Ottoman massacre of Armenians in 1915–16." Among [them] the International Center for Transitional Justice, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, and the United Nations' Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities"
im from turkey.it wasnt genocide it was forced-migration.even people who killed armenians during migration were sentenced to death by ottoman laws.please investigate the situation which turkey was in at that time.armenian tachnak organization killed turkish villagers in ww1 (there was no enough army inside ),to found big Armenia in the lands which Armenians and Turks lived together for 1000 years. massacres made two nation so seperate that they couldnt live together anymore.
If Hitler still lived he would say that the extermination of Jews wasn't a 'Holocaust', he would excuse himself by saying he merely forced the Jews to migrate out of Nazi territory.
What I pity the most about you and nationalists in general, is your hate for your own nation and it's history. Come to terms with your nations history and there may still be hope for you and the Turkish people.
Over a million Armenians were murdered under your feet, it's a historical fact.
@UncleFourFinger ''Over a million Armenians were murdered under your feet'' IM FED UP WITH THIS ! if u investigate numbers 200.000 Armians lost during migration and this number close to Turks that being killed by FUCKIN ARMENIANS (I GOT ANGRY YES) u fuckin investigate history our FUCKIN ARCHIEVES ARE OPEN AND RUSSIANS' ARE SO ONLY ARMENIANS DONT OPEN THEIR ARCHIEVES BECAUSE THIS LIE KEEPS THEM UNITED! I DONT FUCKIN APOLOGISE FOR ANYTHING IF ARMENIANS DO ,I WILL DO TOO.OVER!
What I like about him is that he doesn't have an agenda for israel nor palestinians, but he states what is disingenuous and flawed about all the sides involved.
@ThePopsheep Yes, Hitchens had a very independent mind, and was not monopolized by any partisan factions. His witty intelligence is very entertaining.
While his negative focus on religion is too one-sided for me: It were semi-religious Nazism (Hitler), officially-atheist Communism (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot) and hateful ethnical nationalism (Osman Empire 1915, Ruanda 1994) that committed the most heinous crimes in the 20th century - after all main power control mechanisms were destroyed.
@ThePopsheep All due respect, it is nonsense to believe Hitch didnt have an agenda. Of course he did. 1) Self promotion, media stardom. 2) Hawk on US Foreign Policy, huge drum beater for the War on Terror so-called w/ strong bias against Muslims and sympathy for the Israeli state.
@S2Cents "War on Terror so-called"? If orginized killing civillians isn't terrorism, what is? But you fail to understand is that he thinks all religions are bullshit, not Islam in particular. but he does have an agenda against extremist religious people, and extremists in genera, and any sane person would think the same of the matter.
@ThePopsheep The War on Terror is a stupid propaganda slogan like "war on drugs". You can't wage war on a tactic or strategy (@ least not using the word "war" the way it is normally used/defined).
Anyway I dont "fail to understand" the Hitch on Islam. I know what he'd claim and frankly Im glad his loud fat ass spewed against religion before he died.
@S2Cents The war on terror is actuall war, though. It is the usage of weapons against other armed forces, in an effort to erradicate or minimize the threat of terrorism. If you claim terrorism doesnt exist, than you are in some serious trouble. Hitchens was against extremism and violence, which happen to be accepted and welcomed by Islam, and this violent form of Islam dominates Pals. in Gaza, so obviously Hitchens will oppose their violent or stupid acts, just like he does with Israel.
@ThePopsheep But you're biggest mistake is in your understanding of my words. I said that Hitchens hasn't got an agenda for either side, Israeli or Palestinian, and he said things as they are about the matter at hand.
@ThePopsheep Of course terrorism exists like when the US bombs civilians, that's a form of terrorism. And the US has increased the terrorist threat against American civilians now for it's crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Africa, the Middle East in general.
@S2Cents Hitchens didn't have the agenda you think he did. He was extremely critical of both Christianity and Judaism. He didn't care for any religion and came down hard on Islam because it's the most extreme of the 3 major religions. As a secularist, he understands ALL nations have a right to exist and since Israel is surrounded by enemies, he stands by their right to exist.
@tonydorsett33 Hitchens was overly critical of critics of Israel and activists in general that supported the Palestinians as well as anybody opposed to hawkish US policy in the region. I understand that Americans think supporting the brutally oppressed Palestinians means being against "Israel's right to exist" but fuck it, some realize the Palestinians have a right to exist especially after losing their country.
@S2Cents As a citizen of Israel, I completely agree that the Palestinians have a right to exist as do all human beings. With that said, I simply can't ignore your statement about "the Palestinians losing their country", there has never been a Palestinian country.
@lolkvadim The territorial region that now comprises Israel was throughout much of history called by different names included Palestine and the people there were mostly called and identified as Palestinian. They're reduced to fenced in ghettos and have been systematically robbed of their land. But glad to hear you're against a holocaust.
@S2Cents Because Hitchens understands Democracy and believes in it. Religion is bullshit and is used to brainwash people. Israel is the only democracy in the region and is an example of how prosperous you can be even in that part of the world surrounded by enemies. Hitchens is against extremism, Islam is stuck in the 16th century. Sorry but it's true and it has nothing to do with supporting or not supporting Israel of the Palestinian people.
@tonydorsett33 the only reason israel is so prosperous is as a consequence of the billions of dollars in aid it has received from the U.S and its allies in order to successfully perpetuate their ultimately doomed zionist experiment of putting a bunch of jews in the middle of the muslim world. If Islam is stuck in the 16th century then let them be untill they realise themselves the course they should take to progress
@patagonic903 Wrong, the Israeli people have prospered because they are smart, hard working and take care of their own. They have taken barren land and made it the example of what democracy can do even in that region of the world where religion dominates the landscape. Jews are as zealous as muslims, yet you don't see the same extremism because of what you just said. We DON'T have time to wait for Islam to mature, it's the 21st century!!
Shame...
Erdogan said,we started to allow air transportation to armenia in a level, we are giving back some of their properties, we close eyes to tens of thousands illegal armenians working amd living in turkey and we rennovated and allowed prayers at Akdamar Church.
We are doing these as signs of our desire to normalize relations and waiting some steps from armenians in return.
Now it became a threat in Hitchen's mouthhuh.? He is interpreting the words in a negatve way.
vakasim 1 day ago
@vakasim
According to Reuters Erdogan said:
"There are currently 170,000 Armenians living in our country. Only 70,000 of them are Turkish citizens, but we are tolerating the remaining 100,000."
He then said "I may have to tell these 100,000 to go back to their country because they are not my citizens. I don't have to keep them in my country."
Jtoksa2 1 day ago
@Jtoksa2
According to same source , he also said ;
"Erdogan said Armenian immigrants had been allowed to work in Turkey as a "display of our peaceful approach, but we have to get something in return."
My sentence ;
"We are doing these as signs of our desire to normalize relations and waiting some steps from armenians in return."
Check the link (Link can not be pasted, type;
"Turkish PM threatens to expel Armenians Reuters"
vakasim 1 day ago
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Hitchens = DISGUSTING PRO-WAR NEOCON AND ISRAEL-FIRST ZIONIST
halcyon0830 2 days ago
hitchens is again wrong. erdogan said he would expell the illegal immigrant armenians ,not the citizens.
traderseneca 4 days ago
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@traderseneca
> hitchens is again wrong. erdogan said he would expell the illegal
> immigrant armenians ,not the citizens.
According to Reuters Erdogan said that he would expel 100,000 Armenians living in Turkey who are not Turkish citizens, after US and Swedish lawmakers have officially defined the Armenian genocide as, well, a genocide.
Erdogan said "I don't have to keep them in my country".
That makes it all right, I guess :-)
Jtoksa2 3 days ago
Only a REAL FOOL would claim there is no God! Man creates awesome skyscrapers, fake hearts, tunnels, vehicles etc.. If we are very imperfect then what more can God create THE UNIVERSE! You must accept Jesus Christ as your Savior to receive eternal rest in heaven! Simple! John 3:16 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him! Repent & accept Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ or HELL?!? Visit cbn. com
tigersforchrist 1 week ago
@tigersforchrist
Man creates awesome skyscrapers. fake hearts, tunnels, vehicles, gods...
BlizBob 1 week ago
@tigersforchrist You are the fool who is scared of fairy tales.
Ragnarockalypse 1 week ago
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just to be fair with erdoğan, He did not say he would get rid of all the remaining Armenians in turkey. I mean belonging to Armenian minority in turkey, but rather he made negative comments on the Armenian immigrants from Armenia who illigelly migrated to turkey. I dont like erdogan, but hitchens is abit over simplfying.
baristhealienated 2 weeks ago
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just to be fair with erdoğan, He did not say he would get rid of all the remaining armenians in turkey. I mean belonging to Armenian minority in turkey, but rather he made negative comments on the armenian immigrants from armenia who illigelly migrated to turkey. I dont like erdogan, but hitchens is abit over simplfying.
baristhealienated 2 weeks ago
just to be fair with erdoğan, He did not say he would get rid of all the remaining armenians in turkey. I mean belonging to Armenian minority in turkey, but rather he made negative comments on the armenian immigrants from armenia who illigelly migrated to turkey. I dont like erdogan, but hitchens is abit over simplfying.
baristhealienated 2 weeks ago
haidaraven, you couldnt be more wrong, if americans wanted to give Israel to the Pallies, then they should be willing to give america back to the indians, neither will ever happen
kingryan69 2 weeks ago
@kingryan69 so how do you explain giving land to Israel?,,,,and that was my point ,giving land by to the original inhabitants is never gonna happen
HAIDARAVEN 1 week ago
Christopher Hitchens was gay)
cursetogod 2 weeks ago
@cursetogod Surely you jest. Otherwise, you've risen the bar for stupid comments on Youtube.
rherbert57 1 week ago
@cursetogod No. His friend, Stephen Fry, was gay.
DarknerdMMO 1 week ago
@cursetogod That's going to be a shock to his two wives ! What a puerile comment.
bakersteven3 1 week ago
If Americans think Israel has a right to exist as a country,then a whole bunch if Indian nations in America would be happy to escort you off their land....as they have the same right as Israel
HAIDARAVEN 2 weeks ago 2
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dbananaO 2 weeks ago
@HAIDARAVEN the fundamental stupidity of being a Jew is that Jewish is both a religion and a Nationality, and people will hate you if you are a Jew regardless of your belief (ex.- Holocaust) and that is why Jews do need a country, however I agree that Israel is a dumb choice for a Jewish country as it is surrounded by enemies.
dbananaO 2 weeks ago
@HAIDARAVEN
Ahhhhh logic it HURTSSS
TheTexanCanadian 1 week ago
@TheTexanCanadian you are quite obviously a white guy and view Indians (as I am one) a conquered people who should just STFU and take it,,,,is your view wthat the land is originally Jewish land and therefore should be returned to them??? so why dismiss the Indian rights to THEIR land?
HAIDARAVEN 1 week ago
@TheTexanCanadian
I was being sarcastic and agreeing with you, making fun of people who DISagree.
TheTexanCanadian 1 week ago
@HAIDARAVEN both have a right to exist now, you can be against the creation back in the 1940's but now, as Hitchens says you can't just dismantle entire states
jakebenjaminsk7ss 1 week ago
@HAIDARAVEN They're not exactly the same scenarios. Based on this logic, you can say that the Jews were in Israel thousands of years ago and were forced out by various ancient armies and, much like today's Palestinians, were nomads for a very long time. Personally, I'm not sure if I had lived in 1948 that I would have been in support of creating the state of Israel. I don't know. However, the country exists today and for us to try to dismantle it would be more destructive in the end.
RThornhill69 1 week ago
@HAIDARAVEN
I do not understand the analogy at all. Since Palestinians and Indians are the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine and North America respectively, and since the Jews and the immigrants from Europe are the foreign invaders, how can an analogy exist between the Israeli Jewish population and the American Indians?
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2 100,000 Arabs moved into "Palestine" durng the time of the British mandate. The land of Israel was given to the Jews since the time of Abraham.
irishxxkelt 1 week ago
@irishxxkelt
Given by whom? You mean to say the Jews murdered the original inhabitants of the land and took over.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV
> Jews murdered the original inhabitants of the land and took over
Did you sleep during the history class?
The number of Arabs who lost their lives in the 47-49 wars was miniscule compared to the number who fled to neighboring countries, e.g. Lebanon and the East Bank.
When the Palestinians left their homes, all of them expected to return very shortly, after their heroic Arab armies had driven the Jews into the sea.
But that did not quite happen, did it? :-)
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2
I was actually referring to the Jews migrating to Canaan, killing everyone and then spending the next several thousand years maintaining the pretense that intermittently occupying stolen land demonstrates entitlement.
It is what it is, this is the unfortunate reality of how nations begin. However, there are still plenty of dishonest people attempting to claim the Jewish occupation is a matter of rights or morality rather than military power/money.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV
Also one might add that Israel has a sizable Arab minority which comprises about 20% of Israel's population.
They are the Arabs who did not leave their homes in 47-49 and become refugees, and their descendants.
Unlike the Arabs in the the territories which were occupied by Israel in the '67 war (the six day war, which the Arabs call the June war) the Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens.
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2
Those are all effects, not causes. The cause is one peoples illegitimate claim to land that's already occupied.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
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@AntitheistPOV
> The cause is one peoples illegitimate claim to land that's already occupied.
I believe Palestine was "already occupied" by Jews before they were driven out by the Romans during the first century. At what time did their claim lose its validity?
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2
If you think that the Jewish people's claim to the land if Israel is illegitimate, then you must believe that the PLO as well as most Arab governments were wrong when they implicitly acknowledged Israel's right to exist, for example with the Fez proposal and many, many other occasions.
For example the PLO was quite willing to recognize Israel already in the 80's, when Arafat said that the original PLO charter which calls for the destruction of Israel is "null and void".
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2
Again, you're discussing effects and not causes. All of the political nonsense bred from this conflict is a result of one peoples claim that God gave them the land and permission to murder the indigenous population.
Such a claim is obviously ridiculous and puts them on par with any other immigrant in the region in terms of factual rights.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV So God is ridiculous, is He?
irishxxkelt 1 week ago
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@irishxxkelt
> So God is ridiculous, is He?
Some gods are more ridiculous than others, but all are nonetheless fairly ridiculous.
My favorite ridiculous god is Nut (an Egyptian sky goddess) because her name reminds me of certain present day religions and their adherents :-)
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV
> murder the indigenous population
I did not know Zionists murdered *the* indigenous Palestinian population.
I thought that the vast majority fled (to Transjordan, Lebanon) or remained where they were. And I thought that only a small fraction of Palestinians (or Jews) were murdered.
I know Deir Yassin where Irgun are said to have killed 100-300 Palestinians.
Would you like to tell me more about how Zionists murdered *the* Palestinian population?
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2 You show your ignorance, but at least you use appropriate language: "I did not know" and "I thought that"
yobouysway 1 week ago
@yobouysway
> You show your ignorance
Actually, I know quite a bit about the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Would you like to point out some factual errors in anything that I've written?
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV
> All of the political nonsense
UN 242, the Camp David accords, the Oslo peace process, the Reagan and the Fez initiatives etc, were all nothing but nonsense? Wow.
No wonder Arafat was depressed during his last days, having spent his life's work on nonsense.
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV
You did not answer my earlier question where I asked at what time did the Jewish people's claim to Palestine lose its legitimacy, and why?
The Jews were driven out during 1st century by the Romans. At least at that time the claim must have been legitimate? Right?
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
"The Jewish People" is a fundamental fallacy. There is no 'The Christian People' or 'The Muslim People'. Judaism is a religion adopted by various tribes and groups through out history. In 'Ancient Israel' which we don't know much about, except for Biblical accounts which should not be and are not considered historically or scientifically accurate or contextual. Humans have moved around the Globe for hundreds of thousands of years. Virtually any minority large enough could claim to be
yobouysway 1 week ago
@yobouysway
> There is no 'The Christian People' or 'The Muslim People
That is because Christians and Muslims are adherents of a religion, whereas Jews are an ethnoreligious group, i.e. a people.
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2 'returning to their ancestral homeland' if it was convenient to them and if they were articulate enough about it. The bottom line issue is that eviction and occupation of natives in the name of a fake religion and identity is totally heinous and at the very least should not be sponsored by American tax payers in any way, if for no other reason than the first amendment: 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion'
yobouysway 1 week ago
@yobouysway
> eviction and occupation of natives in the name of a fake religion and identity
What do you think about the UN 1947 partition resolution which would have given Palestinians half of the pre-1967 Israeli territory?
Do you believe that the Jewish people do not have a genuine identity?
Do you think that the Palestinians have an identity?
Who gets to decide whether a people have an identity?
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2
Lose? Never. Their claim was never legitimate. The Jews themselves claim they were commanded by God to attack the lands of Canaan, kill the indigenous inhabitants and occupy the land.
At best, they're on equal terms with the Arabs. They're both immigrants.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV
> they're on equal terms with the Arabs.
Agreed.
Do you think that is what Arafat thought when he declared that the original PLO charter, which called for Israel's destruction, was "null and void"?
What then do you make of the fact that Hamas, after winning the '06 election, explicitly stated that they would *not* honor any agreements made by the previous (Fatah/PLO) administration, and that they would be satisfied with nothing less that Israel's destruction?
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV
> Their claim was never legitimate. The Jews themselves claim they
> were commanded by God to attack the lands of Canaan
I argued that the Jewish claim is legitimate because the Romans made them leave during the first century (of which there is no dispute).
You now argue that their claim is illegitimate because they (supposedly) forced the previous inhabitants to leave perhaps a thousand years earlier?
Did I understand you correctly?
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2
I'm talking about causality. The (relatively) recent conflicts stem from the Jewish believe they have a divine right to occupy land that is already occupied.
Neither side has an irrefutable claim. The obvious solution is to compromise. Various versions of the two state solution have been mediated and rejected dozens of times. It's obvious that both parties are more interested in promoting the rights of their invisible friend them than a real solution.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV
> The obvious solution is to compromise.
Looks like we don't have much of a disagreement here.
I recognize that both the Palestinians and the Jews both have a legitimate claim to Palestine. Do you?
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2
Not the way I'd put it, but the sentiment is the same. I think neither of them has a legitimate claim, but as long as they're both occupying the land they need to figure it out.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
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Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV
> as long as they're both occupying the land they need to figure it out
I think the best opportunity would have been the '47 partition resolution, which would have given Israel much less than 50% of its current land area, and all the rest would have gone to the Arabs.
Unfortunately the Arabs started an all out war one day (yes, one day!) after the resolution was published, whereas the Zionists would have accepted it.
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
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@AntitheistPOV
> as long as they're both occupying the land they need to figure it out
I think the best opportunity would have been the '47 partition resolution, which would have given Israel much less than 50% of its current land area, and all the rest would have gone to the Arabs.
Unfortunately the Arabs started an all out war one day (yes, one day!) after the resolution was published, whereas the Zionists would have accepted it.
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV Go and read the Bible. It is all there. God commanded them to enter the land and when attacked God was with them.
irishxxkelt 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV
> All of the political nonsense bred from this conflict
Do you believe that UN 242, the Camp David accords, the Oslo peace process, the Reagan and the Fez initiatives etc, were all nothing but nonsense?
When you wrote that the Jews killed the indigenous people, were you referring to modern (1947 onwards) events or to biblical times?
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2
Nonsense probably wasn't the right term. Obviously the attempts to resolve the problem aren't nonsense. I used that term out of frustration for the idiocy involved in causing this conflict to begin with.
I'm referring to the Jewish account of their claim to the land, as documented in the Torah. This is where their claim comes from and what caused the current incarnation of the conflict.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2
It's also a large part of why the problem remains unresolved. When you have Rabbi's in the Israeli army claiming that the current occupants of Palestine are descendants of Amalek and other such nonsense. All of the political and military conflict that we see are the result of these kinds of nonsensical beliefs.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV
> conflict that we see are the result of these
> kinds of nonsensical beliefs
I do not think that religion has played a huge part in Israel's politics.
Begin and Sharon, for example, had policies starting from 1977 to invest heavily to the West Bank, whose sole purpose was to make sure that no future Israeli government could relinquish it even if they wanted to :-)
Those men were not religious fanatics (or Orthodox Jews even), they were 100% pragmatists.
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV
> Rabbi's in the Israeli army claiming that the current occupants of
> Palestine are descendants of Amalek and other such nonsense
Israel's biggest religious party (Sephardic Torah Guardians, what a funny name) has 11 Knesset seats at this time, and the second biggest has 5, out of a total of 120 seats.
For comparison, Hamas's popularity in the West Bank and Gaza is probably at least 50%, and they truly *are* religious fanatics.
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
@Jtoksa2 The UN has no right to devide someone's land in to two and give it to someone else. Even if they did, the Zionists had no intentions of living on only half. They wanted the whole thing from the beginning. If you know anything about Zionism, you'd know that. Not only did they want more than Palestine, they wanted all of Jordan as well. They eventually gave up on in it in the 70s when it seemed unrealistic. Now they have their eyes on the West Bank.
yobouysway 1 week ago
@yobouysway
> Even if they did, the Zionists had no intentions of living on only half
Here you are accusing the Zionists of something they "would have done" if the Arabs had not started the '47-'49 war.
Unfortunately Israel did not have an opportunity to show whether they would have been content with living in peace with the Arabs after '47 because the Arabs made that option unavailable to them by starting the war.
This occurred one (!) day after the '47 UN plan was made public.
Jtoksa2 4 days ago
@Jtoksa2 I'm from Israel, (4th generation, mind you) and I don't believe Jewish people have an ethnic or racial identity. It is all religious. Of course co-coreligionists intermingle and inter-breed, but the fact that they created an identity in Europe over 1000 years with Judaism as the base gives them no right to evict already established communities in some kind of biblical messianic complex.
yobouysway 1 week ago
@yobouysway
What do you think about the proposals of territorial division between Israel and the Palestinians which the PLO made and/or backed during the 80's and 90's?
For example the Fez proposal, the Oslo peace process?
Jtoksa2 4 days ago
@Jtoksa2 what do you know about arafat's speech in yohanesburg in 94 where he said the oslo accords are to him like the huddieba agreement ?
why would arafat sign a peace treaty in which he recognizes israel and then say this ?
because it's a lie !
the arabs are lying through their teeth when they speak about peace.
sadly, naive people like you believe them, cause it sounds good.
haroos 4 days ago
@haroos
What makes you think that I "believe them"? Maybe you misunderstood my comment?
As to believing the Arabs, it will suffice to say that when Hamas won the '06 election, one of their first actions was to announce that they would not honor any agreements made the previous (Fatah/PLO) administration.
The Arabs are great negotiation partners, aren't they?
Jtoksa2 3 days ago
@haroos
I am totally ignorant about "the huddieba agreement"? What is it?
Jtoksa2 3 days ago
@Jtoksa2 maybe i mispelled.
it is the treaty between mohamad and the kurraish tribe (some say a jewish tribe) where he offered peace, when in effect when he was later capable he raided and anihalated that tribe.
in short, an agreement that is not worth the paper it's signed on.
haroos 3 days ago
@Jtoksa2 Also, I don't care how you identify yourself, however if what you believe in factually untrue: I.E. White Jews from Russia are the ancient Israelites, then I can tell you that you are wrong. If you want to believe that, that's fine - but to evict people in order to create that and then impose that identity on generations of children (like me) is heinous and I reject it. Also, you haven't posted any facts or historical insight, just typical Zionist propaganda and rhetoric
yobouysway 1 week ago
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@yobouysway
> White Jews from Russia are the ancient Israelites, then I
> can tell you that you are wrong
According to Wikipedia there are genetic studies which show that most Jews have genetic traits which are not only common to other Jews but which can be traced to the middle east.
They also claim to have shown that intermarriage has occurred much less frequently in Jewish populations than among other ethnic groups.
Jtoksa2 4 days ago
@yobouysway
We have so far established that you do not agree with the notion that only a people themselves can ultimately decide whether they have a genuine identity or not (your reference to the "fake Israeli identity").
Let us therefore talk about the Palestinian identity.
Do you know what were the goals of Arab nationalists in Palestine in late 19th and early 20th centuries? Do you know how and when Palestinian national identity came to exist in the first place?
Jtoksa2 4 days ago
@AntitheistPOV No. Go and read the Bible.
irishxxkelt 1 week ago
@irishxxkelt
We're discussing reality. The Bible has nothing to say on this subject.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV The Bible has plenty to say about Israel. Do you even know what the Bible is?
irishxxkelt 1 week ago
@irishxxkelt
You're right, I should more correctly have said nothing "relevant" to say.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV Why can't it ever be considered that the Jews could have been, at one point in history, an indigenous population? Why are the Jews always referred to as the invaders? Honestly, none of this matters because there's no true way of knowing what happened so long ago. We can only accept the world as it is now. Israel exists. A Palestinian state needs to exist. Can we just get on with it already? There's no need to dismantle anything. Why can't we all just build together? Enough.
RThornhill69 1 week ago
@RThornhill69
I'm only going by what the Jews themselves believe.
As for the reality of the situation (which is what I was getting at by bringing up the illegitimacy of their religious claims) - I agree. However, for that to happen, the Israeli's need to abandon their moral high horse and recognize that the Palestinians have as much right to be there as they do.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV It's not just the Jews who believe that. It's in many history books. Even Egyptian. No one will ever truly know. As for the other point, that's more placing blame. Many Israelis protest against their own government. Just as there are many Palestinians who have not protested against suicide bombings. Each side is to blame for various things. I wish we could all just call it a draw and move on and stop with the "Yeah, but Israel..." "Yeah, but the Palestinians..." Enough.
RThornhill69 1 week ago
@RThornhill69
I'm sorry, but could you refer me to these "history books" that you claim record God granting land titles to Jews? I've never seen nor heard of one.
Forgive me if I fail to empathies as much with the Jewish state with their US military funding and vastly superior firepower. Give the Palestinians siege weapons, ballistic missiles and US funding and I'm sure they'll be happy to employ more civil means of killing people.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@RThornhill69 You love the suicide bombings. It gives you an easy excuse and helps you rationalize all the fucked up bullshit Israel does. When Begin bombed the King David Hotel dressed like an Arab, and then attempted to blame the Arabs was later rewarded by being elected Prime Minister.
yobouysway 1 week ago
@yobouysway I'm sorry I even said anything here. This is why this stalemate still exists. Both sides angry for bullshit reasons while both sides are wrong. You might think I'm pro-Israel but I'm not. Nothing I said here was defending Israel's government's actions. Yes, Israel has done some truly fucked up things. But you have to admit that the Palestinians have as well. Until both sides can accept blame for this mess, nothing will change. And by the way, both sides get U.S. funding. Both.
RThornhill69 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV Obviously you haven't the slightest clue about the Bible. Are you a heathen?
irishxxkelt 1 week ago
@irishxxkelt
Why do you keep bringing up the Bible? I don't care what the Bible has to say, we're discussing reality. If you want to talk to discuss your imaginary friend, this is not the place to do it.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV The Bible is a book of prophecy. The two exiles were foretold in the Old Testament and by Jesus Himself. Also the return from the four corners of the earth and the founding a state in one day was foretold. Jesus is not imaginary. He existed on this earth and is sitting at the right hand of the Father. When the tribulation begins you have a chance to repent from your unbelief.
irishxxkelt 1 week ago
@irishxxkelt
If you choose to believe that, that's up to you. If you want to have a discussion about reality or the video topic, let me know. I didn't come here to discuss magic and hobgoblins.
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV So the Abraham, Moses, the Old Testament prophets, Jesus, the apostles and Paul were hobgoblins? Who told you that?
irishxxkelt 1 week ago
@irishxxkelt
I don't generally require people to tell me that invisible friends aren't real.
Paul was the one they dropped the house on, before Dorothy took his slippers, right?
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@AntitheistPOV Stop being such a eejit. Jesus existed.Even pagan Roman historians attested to His life and death. People didn't die horrible deaths in the amphitheatres for a myth.
irishxxkelt 1 week ago
@irishxxkelt
Truly? That must mean Islam and Buddhism are also accurate. Nobody would spend 18 years being tortured in a Chinese jail cell or blow themselves up for a myth.
Now that you mention it, you must be right. Anything that anyone beliefs is obviously true by default. All I have to do now is figure out a way to convince myself I'm a billionaire and start spending!
AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
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AntitheistPOV 1 week ago
@irishxxkelt
> Even pagan Roman historians attested to His life and death.
I would like you to name some Roman historians who wrote about Jesus during the time when people who could have witnessed Jesus were still alive.
Earlier than one human lifetime after Jesus had supposedly lived and died, and before Christianity was already a well established religion.
I am eagerly waiting for your answer.
Jtoksa2 3 days ago
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@Jtoksa2 Why do you reject Suetonius, Josephus Tacitus and others? People did not go to their deaths in the Roman amphitheatres because they believed a myth. They believed by the witness of the apostles and the people who knew Jesus in His ministry. Christianity did not beccome well established religion until the emperor Constatine who made it an official religion of the Roman Empire...........
irishxxkelt 2 days ago
@Jtoksa2 While it is possible that jesus lived at some point, there is significantly less evidence for his existence than for socrate's. The important part of jesus isn't whether he existed or not, it is whether he had divine powers. There is not a single credible or substantially corroborated source to say that he was possessed of such abilities. Even if he did exist, it still means nothing,
xfalc0npunchx 2 days ago
@xfalc0npunchx
One of the 1st century Roman emperors, Vespasian, is known to have personally performed numerous miracles, which were naturally witnessed by masses of reliable witnesses :-)
Compared to Jesus, Vespasian has the added advantage that he actually existed, whereas Jesus only may have existed.
I wonder if we should celebrate him as the true god incarnate instead of Jesus? And why aren't we? :-)
Jtoksa2 1 day ago
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@irishxxkelt
> Do you even know what the Bible is?
The bible is a collection of Jewish and Christian writings which teaches us that the Earth is 6000 years old, that snakes can talk, and that people can live inside whales :-)
Have you read ancient books *other* than the bible? The Epic of Gilgamesh fir example, which is probably as old as, if not older, than the oldest books in the bible?
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
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@irishxxkelt
> The land of Israel was given to the Jews since the time of Abraham.
Given by whom? Oh, I forgot. It was an invisible super being in the sky :-)
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
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@irishxxkelt
> 100,000 Arabs moved into "Palestine" durng the time of the British mandate
Why do you place the word Palestine in quotes? Is Palestine as a geographic area somehow ambiguous? In what way?
I believe that Palestine's Jewish population numbered a little bit under one million at the end of the mandate (?) but only a fraction of that number at its beginning.
Therefore many hundreds of thousands of Jews had moved into Palestine during the mandate.
What's your point?
Jtoksa2 1 week ago
Appel just opened its first & ONLY research and development center outside of the states
IN ISRAEL
MrJapaneseboy1111 2 weeks ago
militant humanist, we should all strive for this.
Xwowplaya 2 weeks ago
I am an Israeli and I must say that, while I don't agree with Hitchens on everything, he was honest in his criticism of Israel and didn't see the criticism as part of a plot to de-legitimize or destroy it.
PilpelAvital 3 weeks ago
Israel got attacked on the flotilla?
Where the eff do they get the sack to pose such dishonest questions?
Uncle99B 3 weeks ago
@Uncle99B U got some effing nerve 2 b babbling bout dishonesty.INCREDIBLE! U r the ultimate hypocrite.All the lies U tell.All the prevarications U disseminate.& U go on and on and on and on.Don't know damn thing about any of it.Totally ignant.I said it b4 & I'm saying it again.With jackasses like U out here the Zionists have nothing 2 worry about.Ur like a man in a rowboat throwing rocks at a battleship - U have no chance.U just want 2 feel like Ur doing something when Ur just looking stupid.
Goldstein305 3 weeks ago
by the way, Erdogan said "we could expel 40.000 armenians instantly if we wanted, but this would not be a humane approach to the issue".. what a clueless fat tard. It's like with ahmedinejad, you just play the words to your favour cause the average idiot watching FOXTV doesnt know any language except his own, which he probably cant speak any well either.
wretchedyo 3 weeks ago
lol, calling Erdogans regime thuggish. The real thugs are america and israel here, not Turkey..
Ilegally invading other countries justifying it with pure lies, stealing land, killing women and children.. who the fuck is thuggish
wretchedyo 3 weeks ago
he at least speaks with an objective eye :)
misstune1 1 month ago
thank god he is dead, pun intended.
gledalac1979 1 month ago in playlist Liked videos
@gledalac1979 ah rejoicing in the death of another. Classy, very classy
heyriggs84 4 weeks ago
Hitch - I man I agree with on issues of religion and non-religion....and disagree with so much politically.
CryptSphinx 1 month ago
ahh, i love hitchens.. I dont get why he was an supporter of the irak war tho... but I agree with him on almost everything else!
stesta90 1 month ago
@stesta90 in his memoirs he talks about the Iraq war. He supported it for the removal of the Hussein regime. He knew what Saddam and his sadist sons were doing to the Iraqi people.
rwm89 1 month ago
@rwm89 it does not justify the killing of 100 000 civilians.... war= collateral dameg, and that is often the civilians.. you cant justify the war on terror/irak war in any way. thats my opinion. if you have another, I dont care.
stesta90 1 month ago
Here's what I don't get: if Judaism has rejected Christian theology, why are Christians so pro-Israel? Also, after having gone through all of the horrors of the holocaust, how can the Israeli settlers start treating people exactly how they had been treated under the Nazis? Why can't Israelis just treat the Palestinians as neighbors? "Love thy neighbor as thyself" is a maxim they claim to live by, but they don't count non-Jews as neighbors.
giaofnature 1 month ago
@giaofnature Its because thier god is amongst other imagined things an estate agent who promised them a "land flowing with milk and honey" and then "led" them to the only part in the middle east ...without oil lol. With god on your side we can love and kill without impunity. Warms the heart...but until we all evolve they will be fighting over Harry Potter for a while yet I fear.
arniemazmax 1 month ago
I'm not wrong. If you do not agree that Israel's relative wealth has arised as a consequence of the economic backing its lord protector USA and others in Europe have given to it, furthermore, if you cannot see that the democratic system it is built upon has been imported by the U.S political ideology it is modelled on, then you my friend are blind. No matter how much they have suffered and overcome the jews are not the chosen people, they are not special and should not be treated as such.
patagonic903 1 month ago
Joh 4:22 "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." So much intellect; so little understanding! "Man that is in honour and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish." Psa 49:20 Was it not a Jewish woman who was chosen to provide the Messiah for the salvation of a seed?
apache16789 1 month ago
@lolkvadim Indeed there was a Palestinian state, although mandated by the British, with a plan towards eventual independence.
theeffinone 1 month ago
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Slandering human rights activists trying to bring aid to a captive population is what Hitch came to in his last days. Pathetic neocon.
ReasonTriumphant 1 month ago
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ReasonTriumphant 1 month ago
Christopher went to far by saying that the activists were friends of Hamas. There were canadians, americains, spanish and french on those boats. And to say, Turkey is no friend whit Hamas...
Sorry if my english could sound incorrect as it is not my first language.
vide0gameCaster 1 month ago
@vide0gameCaster How does that matter? The London bombers were all born in the UK. Where you are born doesn't necessarily govern your political views. Sure Turkey is no friend of Hamas, to believe so would just be ignorant, but to think that ment that not a single person in Turkey could have sympathies for them is naive.
@S2Cents If you go to buy a beamer and there's an excellent salesman, does that mean the car is just a pile of zionist lies?
interwebcrusader 1 month ago
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vide0gameCaster 1 month ago
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@interwebcrusader Of course that there is a possibility that some of them could mentally support the ideology of Hamas. But how could Hitchens be so sure on that, did he interview each of them? He totaly go on a generalisation and said that the activists are friend of Hamas. And after an inspection of ONU to check if there are some dangerous materials that Hamas could find an use, they find none. I'm a great fan of Hitchens but I can sure disagree on some points that he say.
vide0gameCaster 1 month ago 2
@vide0gameCaster Just because they were the nationalities you stated doesn't mean that they are not friends of Hamas.
SkullKing11841 1 month ago
@SkullKing11841 We can say the samething about Turkey, just because they are muslims do not mean that they are friend whit hamas. My question is, how can Hitchens be sure about their motivation? Did he interview each of them and ask if they sympathize whit Hamas? Or is it a prejudice to say that those who are propalestinian are necessarily friend whit Hamas?
vide0gameCaster 1 month ago
@vide0gameCaster I would like to know to, but i know he has most of his life sympathized with the Palestinians and thinks the idea and creation of Israel was a stupid, he also support the Kurdish.
SkullKing11841 1 month ago
I'm glad he's dead.
joel1923 1 month ago
@tonydorsett33 He was an anti-zionist.
Yoggsathoth 1 month ago
erdogan did not say the remianing ones. he meant 100k+ illegal immigrants. which was not a good idea anyways, but hitchens is wrong here
nabecaydim 1 month ago
He really does look quite sick here. Makes me sad.
iamthe1337est 1 month ago
There are no final solutions , there is no absolute truth, there is no supreme leader, there is no totalitarian solution, that says that if you will just give up your freedom of inquiry, if you simply abandon your critical faculties, the world of idiotic bliss can be yours. You may lose the faculties, you may not know as a result, that the idiotic bliss is even more idiotic than it looks.
nigelsenchez 1 month ago
Humans are part of the great ape family. We are creatures that can't seem to coexist peacefully. We're jealous, greedy, territorial animals. And these factions of ape fight over ownership of dirt. They defend their "holy" books which is ape made superstitious nonsense. Read the Bible and Quran and become the atheist you already are. Grow up, or lose everything. forever.
mouthyweasel 1 month ago
Hitchens has got really fat since he was invited to the table !
stiffex 1 month ago
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S2Cents 1 month ago
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@stiffex He looks pig-like. Alcoholism and smoking are OK if you're willing to die from them. Seems he was and I for one respect that shit.
S2Cents 1 month ago
watch?v=qG70UWESfu4
This may give u A FUCKIN WILL TO INVESTIGATE THE SITUATION!
esraretin 1 month ago
@esraretin It's a human instinct to say: "Don't foul your own nest". And the Turkish state made the heinous events of 1915 a taboo and lied to their population for 80 years now, fearing the general shame and Armenian reparation claims. Go to Wikipedia, type "Armenian Genocide", read all or at least the chapter
"Contemporaneous reports and reactions": Reports from various foreign diplomats and witnesses of that time (i.e from America and Germany (Turkey's ally in WW I ) - it's very obvious.
eltamin1966 1 month ago
@eltamin1966 watch?v=-7JtJx8uwqk
watch?v=3zBqDkdktjk&feature=related
notice how many people died because of bad health ,food situation in Turkey.
it wasnt genocide ,historians like Mc Carthy,Bernard Lewis say it
its not very obvious its about definition because genocide has no exact definition, ok then wht Armenians did to Turks before 1915 was genocide too!? and search for massacre of HOCALI .its not that old .they killed Azeri kids,women in Hocalı.believe wht u want believe i dont care
esraretin 1 month ago
@esraretin Citing Wikipedia: "Law professor Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term "genocide" in 1943, [did so] with the fate of the Armenians in mind ... Several international organizations [said] the term "genocide" aptly describes "the Ottoman massacre of Armenians in 1915–16." Among [them] the International Center for Transitional Justice, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, and the United Nations' Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities"
eltamin1966 1 month ago
R.I.P Hitchens
im from turkey.it wasnt genocide it was forced-migration.even people who killed armenians during migration were sentenced to death by ottoman laws.please investigate the situation which turkey was in at that time.armenian tachnak organization killed turkish villagers in ww1 (there was no enough army inside ),to found big Armenia in the lands which Armenians and Turks lived together for 1000 years. massacres made two nation so seperate that they couldnt live together anymore.
esraretin 1 month ago
@esraretin
If Hitler still lived he would say that the extermination of Jews wasn't a 'Holocaust', he would excuse himself by saying he merely forced the Jews to migrate out of Nazi territory.
What I pity the most about you and nationalists in general, is your hate for your own nation and it's history. Come to terms with your nations history and there may still be hope for you and the Turkish people.
Over a million Armenians were murdered under your feet, it's a historical fact.
Fuck off.
UncleFourFinger 1 month ago
@UncleFourFinger ''Over a million Armenians were murdered under your feet'' IM FED UP WITH THIS ! if u investigate numbers 200.000 Armians lost during migration and this number close to Turks that being killed by FUCKIN ARMENIANS (I GOT ANGRY YES) u fuckin investigate history our FUCKIN ARCHIEVES ARE OPEN AND RUSSIANS' ARE SO ONLY ARMENIANS DONT OPEN THEIR ARCHIEVES BECAUSE THIS LIE KEEPS THEM UNITED! I DONT FUCKIN APOLOGISE FOR ANYTHING IF ARMENIANS DO ,I WILL DO TOO.OVER!
esraretin 1 month ago
Hitchens rates his own opinion higher than that of either truth or justice.
TheChutzpahGirl 1 month ago
@TheChutzpahGirl How do you support that statement?
MrArtstacks 1 month ago
'an out of control thug posing as a defender of the right of the peoples' much like the british then eh chris?
jaddajn1 1 month ago
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What I like about him is that he doesn't have an agenda for israel nor palestinians, but he states what is disingenuous and flawed about all the sides involved.
ThePopsheep 1 month ago 9
@ThePopsheep Yes, Hitchens had a very independent mind, and was not monopolized by any partisan factions. His witty intelligence is very entertaining.
While his negative focus on religion is too one-sided for me: It were semi-religious Nazism (Hitler), officially-atheist Communism (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot) and hateful ethnical nationalism (Osman Empire 1915, Ruanda 1994) that committed the most heinous crimes in the 20th century - after all main power control mechanisms were destroyed.
eltamin1966 1 month ago
@ThePopsheep All due respect, it is nonsense to believe Hitch didnt have an agenda. Of course he did. 1) Self promotion, media stardom. 2) Hawk on US Foreign Policy, huge drum beater for the War on Terror so-called w/ strong bias against Muslims and sympathy for the Israeli state.
S2Cents 1 month ago 5
@S2Cents "War on Terror so-called"? If orginized killing civillians isn't terrorism, what is? But you fail to understand is that he thinks all religions are bullshit, not Islam in particular. but he does have an agenda against extremist religious people, and extremists in genera, and any sane person would think the same of the matter.
ThePopsheep 1 month ago
@ThePopsheep The War on Terror is a stupid propaganda slogan like "war on drugs". You can't wage war on a tactic or strategy (@ least not using the word "war" the way it is normally used/defined).
Anyway I dont "fail to understand" the Hitch on Islam. I know what he'd claim and frankly Im glad his loud fat ass spewed against religion before he died.
S2Cents 1 month ago
@S2Cents The war on terror is actuall war, though. It is the usage of weapons against other armed forces, in an effort to erradicate or minimize the threat of terrorism. If you claim terrorism doesnt exist, than you are in some serious trouble. Hitchens was against extremism and violence, which happen to be accepted and welcomed by Islam, and this violent form of Islam dominates Pals. in Gaza, so obviously Hitchens will oppose their violent or stupid acts, just like he does with Israel.
ThePopsheep 1 month ago
@ThePopsheep But you're biggest mistake is in your understanding of my words. I said that Hitchens hasn't got an agenda for either side, Israeli or Palestinian, and he said things as they are about the matter at hand.
ThePopsheep 1 month ago
@ThePopsheep Of course terrorism exists like when the US bombs civilians, that's a form of terrorism. And the US has increased the terrorist threat against American civilians now for it's crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Africa, the Middle East in general.
S2Cents 1 month ago
@S2Cents Hitchens didn't have the agenda you think he did. He was extremely critical of both Christianity and Judaism. He didn't care for any religion and came down hard on Islam because it's the most extreme of the 3 major religions. As a secularist, he understands ALL nations have a right to exist and since Israel is surrounded by enemies, he stands by their right to exist.
tonydorsett33 1 month ago
@tonydorsett33 Hitchens was overly critical of critics of Israel and activists in general that supported the Palestinians as well as anybody opposed to hawkish US policy in the region. I understand that Americans think supporting the brutally oppressed Palestinians means being against "Israel's right to exist" but fuck it, some realize the Palestinians have a right to exist especially after losing their country.
S2Cents 1 month ago
@S2Cents As a citizen of Israel, I completely agree that the Palestinians have a right to exist as do all human beings. With that said, I simply can't ignore your statement about "the Palestinians losing their country", there has never been a Palestinian country.
lolkvadim 1 month ago
@lolkvadim The territorial region that now comprises Israel was throughout much of history called by different names included Palestine and the people there were mostly called and identified as Palestinian. They're reduced to fenced in ghettos and have been systematically robbed of their land. But glad to hear you're against a holocaust.
S2Cents 1 month ago
@S2Cents Because Hitchens understands Democracy and believes in it. Religion is bullshit and is used to brainwash people. Israel is the only democracy in the region and is an example of how prosperous you can be even in that part of the world surrounded by enemies. Hitchens is against extremism, Islam is stuck in the 16th century. Sorry but it's true and it has nothing to do with supporting or not supporting Israel of the Palestinian people.
tonydorsett33 1 month ago
@tonydorsett33 the only reason israel is so prosperous is as a consequence of the billions of dollars in aid it has received from the U.S and its allies in order to successfully perpetuate their ultimately doomed zionist experiment of putting a bunch of jews in the middle of the muslim world. If Islam is stuck in the 16th century then let them be untill they realise themselves the course they should take to progress
patagonic903 1 month ago
@patagonic903 Wrong, the Israeli people have prospered because they are smart, hard working and take care of their own. They have taken barren land and made it the example of what democracy can do even in that region of the world where religion dominates the landscape. Jews are as zealous as muslims, yet you don't see the same extremism because of what you just said. We DON'T have time to wait for Islam to mature, it's the 21st century!!
tonydorsett33 1 month ago