Abraham chose god over his family, he was free to do that, that was HIS choice to make and his problem, if I had lived in those times I would have advised him to think about how weak god may perceive him if the test was a little bit sophisticated than he would have thought, just as I am now with you.
We have a God-given sense of what is right and wrong (Rom 2:14-15), but b/c of our flawed sin nature, that sense isnt perfect, and cant be put ahead of the word of God. God cannot lie (Titus 1:2). I suspect we're just going to have to agree to disagree, but you can't just say "God said this but He meant that." That is making up a false religion to satisfy what you think what God should be like.
maybe god does not lie however one way or the other he was happy to deceive Abraham with regard to wanting Isaac slaying so it follows that he would be ok deceiving Abraham and all three nations that he was father to, christians muslims and jews, all as lost as each other.
the blind selfish crulty of Abraham is passed on to us, i wish to be better.
if Abraham passed this test then i will request that god put me back where he got me from as i do not wish to kneel before one so cruel
Our opinions do not affect truth. God is the way He is and that is good and if we don't think it's good that's b/c of A) we don't understand God or B) we don't understand what "good" truly is. Please don't create an idol of what you think God should be and call that "God". That's not true worship. That's not submitting to Christ. A man-made god cannot save you from your sin and their eternal punishment.
Part 3 Christ died for your salvation. Only He can save you from your sin and its eternal punishment. Please don't waste the most precious gift of eternal salvation. You have to trust in God, and not lean on your own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)
I strongly believe it is more likely that the whole point was to leave his creation with no option but to escape the dangers of faith and second hand knowledge through a personal independent fiercely moral drive for truth at all costs despite it being like eating barbed wire proving an authentic self sufficient rise above evil.
I fear that you feel that the difference between good and evil is not ours to judge? However you are part way there in knowing that stoning unruly children is bad
I agree that Abrahams test was possibly not pointless, however if Abraham had passed the test there would have been no need for Jesus or Mohammed as at the Abrahamic nation’s base would have a morality that is driven by love and impervious to evil trickery etc, Satan would have no power over such men, however, Abraham was left to believe that he had done the right thing and this explains to me why the Abrahamic religions are so schizophrenic at times.
I do not wish to complicate things by getting into the transcendental argument unless you insist, it does have its problems however, that aside, it would be unfitting of a perfect god to only allow evidence to those he made with enough IQ to comprehend it and condemn the rest to hell
If god is beyond evil then is it not obvious to you that Abraham should have said no?
@ggcage is it absolutly beyond all doubt that god may one day come down from heaven and say the bible was there to filter out all those who do not have the spine to see what is writen in their own hearts about truth.
and all those whe put love peace and understanding before the word of god showed enough spine and integrity despite the fear of hell are more than worthy of heaven
you never know, it may well be worth a thought or two before the end :)
I see, but in the end no one is worthy of heaven. God’s standard is perfection and we have all failed that standard miserably. God is loving and merciful but He is also holy and just. If God were to forgive us without any kind of sacrifice, then He would be condoning our sin. He would be eternally giving up His holiness. That is why sin must be punished. That is why we deserve hell. Because we have all rebelled against an infinite God, we deserve an infinite punishment.
I know it seems hard, but God is infinitely more holy and more wise than we will ever be. It is better to lean on God’s infinite wisdom than our own finite understanding, which is flawed and tainted with sin. If we put our own feelings ahead of the word of God, then we are essentially saying that we are holier than God. That is basically what Lucifer did when he first rebelled, but we have all rebelled against God and tried to be our own god one way or another with our sin.
But God is so loving and merciful that He was willing to send His Son to die for us. He took on our sin and bore the infinite punishment that we deserved while He was on the cross. He literally went through hell for us. Its only by accepting what Jesus has done for us and giving our lives to Him that we can be forgiven and spend eternity with God in joy. Jesus died for you. Please don't put your knowledge ahead of God's. Please dont waste the most precious gift of eternal life
@ggcage you may well be right but i have a decision that only i can make and it may be the most impotant decision iv ever made so i have to assume that god would give me the faculties to pass this test.
using my god given abilities i will wait until judgement and using my abilities i will have to try my best to see for myself if im being tricked by the devil
my heart seems to always tell me if something is bad
ill stand in front of god and see what my heart says
I see, but God has given you the Bible, which is perfect, unlike your heart. What you have to realize is that your heart is tainted by sin. It is much better to trust in God's infinite wisdom than it is to trust in our own sin-tainted, flawed emotions. If we stand before God with our own hearts, we will go to hell, because our hearts are evil (Jeremiah 17:9). We seek out to rebel against God. Our emotions are wired to not give Him glory, but to seek out our own glory.
It's not a politically correct thing to say, but the Bible's clear about it, and it's much better to trust what God says than what is politically correct. You may feel your heart is right, but that doesn't make it so. Only Jesus can make us fit for God. Jesus died for you, so that you could have eternal joy with God and not eternal punishment.
The heart may seem right but it is not the determining factor of truth. God is. Read the first 5 chapters of Romans. It's a very good summary of how we need Jesus to save us from our sinful hearts. It is clear that our hearts are in rebellion to God and cannot be trusted.
Please don't put your heart ahead of God. True worship is about putting God first. Please don't make your heart an idol. Please don't waste the most precious gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ.
if abraham had said "no i can not and will not slay my son" he would have shown a fearless incorruptible morality that is driven by love and is inperviouse to trickery of any type including the promise of salvation, heaven and the everlasting and in the process risking hell for eterity
a perfect human
dont sell your heart for so small a price as a promise of heaven
when it is your turn with the knife what will you do ?
@Mark777X Abraham did not fail. He showed that he trusted God. If he had not sacrificed Isaac, there is good chance that God would not have sacrificed Jesus, and we would all be doomed to hell. So Abraham did do the right thing.
In all seriousness, what is better to trust: an infinite holy God, or the corruptible and highly impressionable human heart? Which of those can be manipulated and which never changes? Which of those is transcendent and holy and which is corrupted and flawed?
I see what you're saying, but I don't know God because of my heart. I know God b/c God, in His mercy chose to adopt me (Ephesians 1:4-5). Human beings do not initiate salvation. God does. They can't follow God w/out the Holy Spirit b/c their hearts are so corrupted
Where exactly did you get this idea that salvation is based on where we live, and which god we choose? Its nowhere in scripture. I'm not doing evil to get saved. I am following God's will, which there can be no greater good
I see, but every religion other than Christianity teaches that we must earn our salvation; that we must make ourselves fit for God. However, the Bible teaches that we have a fallen sinful nature and are completely unable to save ourselves, and that it is only because Jesus has taken on our punishment that we have any hope to escape hell and get to heaven.
Part II It puts the focus on God instead of man, which is what you'd expect from a religion that is from God and not man. Jesus is the only way to heaven. Please don't waste such a precious gift. It's the greatest gift ever and it would be a great tragedy if it were wasted.
you failed to answer the quesion so i will try to answer it for you
the reason christians dont generaly kill for apostasy despite the bibles instruction to kill for apostasy is, people know in their hearts it is wrong, ergo, some of the bible is at the very least a deceit.
how could i trust you and your road to salvation if you refuse to adress this anomaly you have of picking and chosing the word of god, then refusing to agnowledge that you do it?
Part I I'm sorry I must have misunderstood you. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach Christians to kill for apostasy. There were some very strict commands in the Old Testament, but those commands were directed to the ancient Jews, not Christians. The ancient Jews were a very specific people with a very specific purpose. If the Jewish culture became impure, then Jesus would not have been able to do what He had to do, and w would all be doomed to hell.
So we should in fact be thankful that God would justly execute such strict commands for our salvation. If you're interested, I made a video on this subject called "Old Testament Troubles"
Anyways, Christians are commanded to love. Jesus said "Love your enemies" which even today is considered to be radically peaceful. There is nowhere in scripture where we are commanded to hurt people of other faiths. Such a thing goes against Christ's message of love.
Part III We aren't ignoring the Bible, but realizing what things are and are not written directly to us. I know Christians say "It's out of context" more than they probably should, but context is very important in understanding scripture. I could quote scripture and say "Judas hanged himself", "do likewise" , "and do so quickly". Such is an extreme example, but it shows how important context is.
There are some hard things in the Bible, but context is vastly important. We aren't ignoring scripture, but looking at context. People throw out all kinds of misconceptions, and there are some things that are hard to understand, but you have to trust in God over your own understanding. Please don't let misconceptions like this distract you from the most important gift of salvation from sin and hell and eternal life with God in joy through Jesus Christ.
i guess we going get into spliting hairs on interpritation etc
maybe it is just a little bit to hard for you to understand that abraham may have failed the test
you say context is important,what are you using besided your own understanding to make this destinction ? are you trusting your understanding/interpritation or trusting god ?
the only interpritation that doesnt leave god looking terrible is abraham failed his test along with millions of others
If you read the Bible, not little snippets of it but read the narrative of the Bible itself, then the context is obvious. There is no serious Bible scholar that believes that that verse is written to anyone other than the ancient Jews.
If we do not like the way God does things, that does not negate the fact that He is still God and Lord and King. We ought to worship God b/c He is God not b/c He is God and we like Him. If we worship God only b/c He is the way we believe He ought to be, then are really worshiping our an idea about God that we hold and not God Himself.
You may say that God is terrible, but He is holy. He demands our awe and reverence. He cannot stand sin. If God were to not punish sin, then He would be condoning it, and He would eternally give up His holiness.
You shouldn't be so quick to say that God is evil, b/c He forgave us. Because of our sin and rebellion, and the desire to worship ourselves, God would've been perfectly justified if he sent us all to hell right not. But He is so merciful that He sent His only Son to die on the cross to take on our sin. Jesus literally suffered hell for us while He was on the cross. The physical agony from being crucified was just the tip of the iceberg. Please don't give up such a precious gift
Iv done my share of reading the bible, with all due respect it made me feel ill and I guess that’s the reason I didn’t end my search for salvation there
You say just because I don like what he does that doesn’t stop him being god
I say, just because he is god that doesn’t stop him being bad and if he is bad then that
tiny bit of this universe that’s mine and feels what it feels will make a judgement on him despite any attempts by me to thwart that
So I can either try to lie about it in front of god or try to be honest
If you are right it looks like im going to hell either way so I may as well stand up and be counted and let him know that at least one soul in this universe thinks he’s unworthy
I can only hope that you are wrong about Abraham or that there is no god
Its impossible for God to be evil bc His nature is the absolute standard of what goodness is. It doesn’t make anything arbitrary, bc there's nothing less arbitrary than God. His nature is eternal, holy, unchanging, absolute, and ultimately very good. Think about it. What ground for morality can there be that is less arbitrary than God? I don't see how the human heart, which is flawed, sinful and subject to change can be said to be a better and less arbitrary grounds for morality
Abraham knew God would save Isaac. He trusted God. That is the point. The point is that we ought to trust God and not twist scripture to make it say what we want it to say. Things will work out for good in the end, just like with Abraham. Things will work out for God's glory. Please don't waste the sacrifice of Christ. He is the only way we can be saved from hell and spend eternity in heaven.
If its impossible for god to be evil then Abraham must have failed the test
If Abraham knew god would stop him then the test was pointless.
If Abraham and god where just collaborating to set the moral standard then they where making people who “think” they know god vulnerable to false prophets advocating terrible things (suicide bombers?)
Let me ask you this. What is your definition of evil? What exactly makes something good or evil?
The reason I'm asking this is that if there is no God, if the universe we live in is nothing but matter and energy and their governing forces, then things like good and evil cannot exist but are only inventions of the human mind. In order for transcendental laws to exist, like those of physics, morality, logic ect, then a transcendental mind (God) must exist.
Also, it should be realized that if God exists, then since God is the source and the benchmark by which all good is judged, then what He says is good has a lot more bearing than what we think is good. Since we are fallible creatures, it is possible that what we think is good is actually evil and vice versa, but it is impossible for God to make such an error.
Also, since God does not lie (Hebrews 6:18) it is safe to assume that if God says that something is good, then it really is good. God is not going to require that you do something evil. Such a thing would be against the nature of God. All God requires for salvation is that we follow Jesus, give our lives to Him, and accept what He has done for us.
Abraham's test was not purposeless. It shows how much He trusted God and how important our faith in God is. If Abraham had not had faith, then He would not have received God's promise, and there's a good chance that Jesus would not have been born and we would have no way to be reconciled with God, so it can be seen why faith is so important.
Abraham put God before his family and himself. Is that evil? What is more important than God? If we put something ahead of God, then that is what we are giving our worship. Abraham had faith in God. Yes, it is not a pretty place to be in to make such a decision, but if you think about how God is more important than anything, how can that be evil?
But I really would like an answer to that question, "what is the definition of evil, what makes something good/evil?" It's a big question that people don't think about.
I can not expect a world of peace with a thoughtful calm clear drive towards the best that is possible if I am unwilling to or unable to live up to this myself
My drive to be good is a selfish drive to make my world a better place for me and all else to live in, enjoy and understand
My example of Evil is discovering that something you do is wrong and knowingly continuing with that “something” regardless
How so you know that Jesus died on a cross? How do you know that Jesus lived at all? How do you know that God exist? How do you know that God is good or omniscient or omnipotent? The answer to each of these question is that the bible says it is so. Finally, how do you know that the bible is the true word of God? once again the answer is that it says so in the bible. This is the quintessential example of circular logic. Thankfully we now embrace empiricism. Most of us anyway...
I see, but there is a lot of noncircular evidence that the Bible is the word of God. In fact that's pretty much what my channel is devoted to. The Bible is full of prophecy. There are a couple of links in my channel description that show hundreds of prophecies in the Bible. These are not falsified either. For example, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the prophecies in the book of Isaiah that predict details of Jesus' life were in fact written before Jesus.
Also, the apostles were with Jesus constantly for 3 years. They should have known whether or not they actually saw, heard, and touched Him after He was resurrected. They would have known whether or not Jesus was legitimate. However, they were willing to risk their lives over and over again to share the gospel, knowing that they would most likely be killed, and all of them were killed except maybe John. Either the apostles willingly died for a lie, or Jesus was legitimate
there's no proof that jesus was resurrected. The link you put up was just more bullshit with no facts. I'm so tired of stupid christians who think they are smart and have some sort of proof. Listen you fucking dumb ass. There is no other religion more shady that yours. I mean come on. the bible was translated wrong. This has been proven. Then King james wrote his own version of it. Not from the original version but from the version the was translated wrong. Try a little harder next time.
@SuperMrAtheist I don't understand. Exactly how was the Bible "translated wrong?" Also, King James did not write his won version, and even if he had, there are still many versions today that are translated from the original Greek/Hebrew.
@ggcage well you don't understand because you have not study the bible and the history of the bible as much as I have. If you're going to believe in something or even talk about it. Please don't come to me unless you have done your home work. I don't have time for people like you. Go read some more them come back and then we'll talk.
@GodsArePeopleToo If by "resurrection" you mean the exact moment that Jesus came back to life, then no, nobody witnessed that because He was locked in a tomb. However, people did witness Jesus die and then witnessed Him alive after that, so for all practical purposes, there were many witnesses to Jesus' resurrection.
I would go on further but I'm running out of space. Anyways, if you're really interested I have a couple of videos on the resurrection and the veracity of Jesus' deity.
if you saw someone get shot and don't see them move, paramedics remove the body (and that's all you see) and three days later you see the person walking down the street, you gonna say he was resurrected?
I see, but what you have to realize is that Jesus wasn't shot. He was scourged to the point of mutilation, crucified, stabbed with a spear, and then laid in tomb behind a several-ton boulder. Recovering from a gunshot wound with today's medicine is quite plausible, but even if Jesus did somehow recover from all than and move a huge boulder and sneak past a Roman guard, He would've been so mutilated that there is no way He could have passed for the Son of God with a glorified divine body.
I see what you're saying, but there are a few problems with it. For one thing, if a prophecy was written after the event, then it wasn't really prophecy, and there is no evidence that that ever happened. Also, if someone did edit a prophecy, they would be editing the word of God, which was very, very unlawful, and would've gotten the person stoned, and the edited version would've been lost.
@ggcage Most of what you know as the bible was put together during the Council of Nicaea, where they voted in the stories that made Jesus look like the messiah while filling in the gaps that didn't. Jesus "fulfills" prophecies because they wrote it that way in 325. That's over three hundred years after his supposed death and resurrection (of which there are no writings about him made during the time in which he was supposedly alive).
@jumpmonkey03 The Bible was not written in 325. Nicaea did not vote on stories, but on books. Which books were authentic and which ones weren't was already commonly known, and was quite obvious. All the council did was make everything official, since it was the first time persecution ceased in the Roman Empire, and Christianity could safely come into the light of day. I would go further but I don't have the space. If you're interested, this video is quite informative...
@ggcage I know it wasn't absolutely written at that time, but a lot of the books had name changes, editing changes, and splicing that occurred in that time to make the names fit, and the fact still remains that there are no historical records written about Jesus during the time in which he was supposed to have lived, all we have is hearsay about him from those who claimed to have known him.
@jumpmonkey03 That last part may be true but what you have to realize is this. The earliest biography of Alexander the Great was 400 years after he died. The earliest writing we have from Plato is a copy from 1400 years after he died. This is quite common with ancient figures. Jesus, who has documents on Him written 100 years after His death, is really well recorded. This wasn't the information age. The lack of material we have on Jesus from His lifetime is not a reason to doubt His existence.
@jumpmonkey03 We there is a ancient history by da name of Josephus who wrote about Jesus's teaching, miracles, crucifiction, & resurrection. theres a few others as well. Think about this all ancient manuscripts r recorded by historians dat lived well over 300 years of da event, like Julius Ceasers Galic wars, but da gospels were about 40 years after da event, if one cant trust dat than u cant trust any other ancient manuscriptes of any kind. People only deny this because they dont want God
the bible is a load of lies. there is no true writer who takes credit for it, just a collection of reclusive individuals, who lived in caves, and probably ate mushrooms that had hallucinogenic properties. Therefore, one can conclude also from the content of the book, and things, like touching the sun. that the bible is illogical, and as true as a tall-tale.
Where in the Bible does it mention touching the Sun? Do you have any evidence that these people live in caves or ate mushrooms? Many of the people who wrote the Bible, especially the prophets and the apostles, went out and willingly died for what they preached. The testimonies are about as solid as they can be. Also, a lot of the books are quite prophetic in nature, and accurate too. Not something one would expect from a hallucination.
The touching the sun is a metaphor showing something that is physically impossible. for instance, the bible says a burning bush with "God's voice" talked to Moses. And also it is known from archeology that the people back then suffered health problems from unhealthy diets of the biblical times, and as a result saw and even heard things that were not there.
True, but hallucinations are usually random. Hallucinations don't make multiple prophetic statements that come true. Also, people who have hallucinations don't have the exact same hallucination as they would have in the resurrection and the feeding of the 5,000. Also, there is no evidence that any of this, but there is in fact a good bit of evidence that the Bible is God's word.
Well Horus was ressurected, so was Baldur, and many many other gods and spirits throughout human imaginative history. Also christianity has its roots in various other religions and mythologies from around the world. It tends to absorb others, as recently as the renaissance from celtic beliefs. The story of christ has been told in other religions long before christ. And the bible, old and new testament is rife with contradictions.
One thing I have noticed with Bible "contradictions" is that it is usually done by someone who wants to read the Bible only so they can twist it and justify their disbelief. The thing is that if you seek to misunderstand God, then that's what you'll get.
Also, while I don't have the space to go over it here, I have very recently posted a video series on the subject of Christianity being an imitiation of previous religions. The thing is that this theory really falls apart when its examined
The hebrew religion stems from earlier religions, and even other earlier gods are mentioned in the OT as demons. Some of the stories have existed in the middle east long prior to the Abrahamic religions, such as Gilgamesh. The stories took new forms, new faces, were embellished and evolved. Stories tend to do that.
There is quite a bit of truth in that but that doesn't make them false. For instance, nearly every ancient culture has a myth about the whole world flooding, and a single family being saved. In fact, it shows that all these stories originate from a single event, and for reasons such as prophecy, wisdom, and history it is safe to assume that the Bible's account is most accurate. If you're interested you can see my video on it, Zeitgeist Proven False Part 3. The latter 2 minutes covers the flood.
There is no evidence for a global flood though. There is however evidence for massive flooding in the dead sea area, which is probably where the stories originated. Many cultures indeed have stories of massive floods and global floods. But many cultures have stories about dragons too, and they do not exist.
One thing that should be realized is that dragon myths aren't quite as widespread as flood myths. Also, there are theories that these stories arose because of dinosaur fossils.
But anyways, there is evidence of a global flood. Many fossils are only possible in a 'rapid burial' that would occur in a flood. Also, there is evidence that at one time the Earth's oceans' salinity decreased suddenly, as in a fresh water deluge.
There is no evidence for a global flood. Floods all over the world at various times yes, but not one giant global flood. In fact at one point earth was a giant desert, during Pangea, killing off most life. That's before the dinosaurs.
Well let me ask you this. You claim there is no evidence for a global flood. Exactly what would be convincing evidence of such an event, or any event in the Bible?
For a flood you would have to have consistent evidence throughout the same strata world wide. Some of that evidence would be a mass extinction less than 6000 years ago. You would find salinity dilution like crazy in that same layer all over the world. I'm sure there is a ton of other evidence I can't even think of right now that would be required too . . . all within the same layer, all around the globe, wherever one looked. One pocket lacking evidence would collapse the whole flood idea.
One thing that should be realized is that during the flood, there would've been pockets of fresh and salt water. The terrain would have changed drastically, so to say it has to all be in the same layer doesn't really line up with the flood strory.
There is a lot of evidence of flood. If you're really interested, you can google it. You'll find some pretty interesting stuff. Anyways, one thing you should realize is that if "look" for evidence of these sort of things only to justify your disbelief, then you'll get nowhere. If you truly seek God, then you'll find God, but if you seek only to justify what you've already concluded, then that's what you'll get.
I let the evidence take me where it will. If it shows something that for some reason I wish it didn't, well I have to accept it. To start with pre- drawn conclusions is not science. Creation science maybe, but not real science.
I see, but sometimes I feel like a lot of atheists say that they have "looked" for evidence of God, when really all they've looked for is reasons to disbelieve. The thing is that if you're not searching for something then you're not going to find. There is evidence of God out there, but you can't just shut your mind off to Him. If you truly seek God you'll find God, but if you seek misunderstanding, then you'll get misunderstanding.
I let evidence take me where it will. I have not come across any that suggests a god exists. And even if I did, that doesn't mean it is the god of the old testament. If a god did exist, it is just as likely to be Odin as Yahweh.
God isn't hiding from you. Like any other relationship, a relationship with God requires faith in trust in the person, just b/c thats the nature of a relationship. God has revealed Himself in His word and His creation. Its a matter of trusting Christ to remove our sins so we can have a relationship with God, similar to how trust is required for any relationship. Christ's sacrifice was the greatest gift ever given and it would be a tragedy if wasted.
Difference being when you have a relationship with someone, you can see them, touch them, hear them, smell them, etc. If God is revealed through literature, then so has Spiderman been revealed. One is just as credible as the other.
I see, but there is a big difference between God and Spiderman. There arent certain properties of the universe, including laws, tuned constants, and order that imply Spidermans existence. Also, Spiderman's books arent prophetic, & dont really offer the wisdom that the Bible does. For instance, Jesus said to love your enemies. This completely goes against human nature, yet forgiveness is the only way we can truly move on after we've been hurt, which makes me think its from God and not man
" Also, Spiderman's books arent prophetic, & dont really offer the wisdom that the Bible does. For instance, Jesus said to love your enemies"
The teachings of spiderman hold plenty of wisdom. With great power comes great responsibility. Dont get mixed up in love triangles if youre a clone. Interesting bad guys are impossible to kill. The list is endless.
Its true that "Do to others as you'd have the do to you" is found in every major religion. But "Love your enemies" goes much deeper. The Golden Rule is a basic principle of human society, but "Love your enemies" means to actually have compassion for those who wish you harm.
My Lord! Others have fallen back in showing compassion to their benefactors as you have shown compassion even to your malefactors. All this is unparalleled.
3.Jainism. Vitaragastava 14.5
I should be like the sun, shining universally on all without seeking thanks or reward, able to take care of all sentient beings even if they are bad, never giving up on my vows on this account, not abandoning all sentient beings because one sentient being is evil.
Of the adage, Only a good man knows how to like people, knows how to dislike them, Confucius said, "He whose heart is in the smallest degree set upon Goodness will dislike no one."
And I also treat those who are not good with goodness.
Thus goodness is attained.
I am honest with those who are honest,
And I am also honest with those who are dishonest.
Thus honesty is attained.
-The Tao Te Ching, chapter 49. The Tao Te Ching is the most influential Taoist scripture, written between the 3rd and 6th centuries B.C.E. Indeed, finding this passage makes me want to read it.
Well T1, I have to admit that you got me on that one. However, I believe that most people see it as a fundamental truth as is described in Rm 2:14. I know it can be argued that such a widely held belief could come by evolution, but then that would make morality subjective which would lead to all sorts of problems, but that's a different subject.
It goes much deeper than just the human nature of treating your neighbors decently so that they'll return the favor. In fact it goes completely against human nature, which is evidence that its from God, and Jesus is the only religious figure to ever teach this
The thing is that unlike God, Spiderman doesn't have the science, the history, or the philisophical logic behind him. There is a lot of evidence of Christianity out there, but you can't just shut yourself off to it. If you want to believe that there is no God, than that's your choice, but Jesus died for you. Its the greatest gift ever given and it'd be a tragedy if it were wasted.
There is no science or logic behind god. If there were intellectuals would have little trouble with the idea of a god. Philosophy can be largely debated. And loving your enemies is idiotic regardless. You do not have to love your enemies to forgive them. Just understand them. Which takes compassion--that is a human trait, not a divine trait. Second, the properties of the universe are not so finely tuned as you might think.
An example of the not so fine tuning of the universe are things like black holes. No one knows what exactly they are, or where they go, or why they emit ridiculous amounts of radiation while swallowing everything else. Second, the Milky Way (our galaxy) is on a collision coarse with
Andromeda. Which means not only will earth not be here for ever, but the entire milky way is going to be torn apart. Then there are things like Quazars. Or singularities. The laws are stable, but not fine tuned.
Not all intellectuals have a problem w/ the idea of a God. Some of the most brilliant minds in history have been theists. The word "love" has come to mean a lot of different things, but in this since it can be said to be the same thing as compassion
The universe is not perfectly tuned, but it is far, far more fine tuned then it would be w/out a designer. However, it should be noted that our sin has seperated us from God, corrupted creation, and hence, you don't have a perfectly tuned universe
Compassion is not love, though I suppose related. I think the idea of a loving god punishing all of man kind because of his own mistake (if he knows all did he not know that Eve would have eaten the apple? Or that the snake would encourage her? And if he knew why put the tree of knowledge there to begin with? And if he knew then he owes us heaven for his own blunder.) Would you punish your child for something you did? Really?
"Love" has come to mean many different things. Someone may say they love their wife, and the same day say that they love pizza. Love in the sense I talked about earlier is highly related to compassion in the sense that it means that one cares about another.
The thing is that it wasn't really God's blunder. God created us to love Him, which requires free will. If He had made us so we couldn't sin, then we wouldn't really have free will and that would defeat the whole purpose. But God has been loving through His act on the cross. It may seem odd that God would choose to do things the way He did, but I do go into some of the reasons behind it in this video...
If he wanted us to have free will why make any decision other than to love him a sin and subject to eternal torture? That's not free will, that's an ultimatum. There's a difference. A god that created everything, buggered off and didn't care what man did would value free will more than Yahweh does. Not to mention, that if you want someone to love you, best give them freedom, and respect, not a yoke.
Ok, I can see that. But let me ask you this. What exactly is it in the Bible that causes you to disbelieve? If you are truly critical then you should have a reason for your disbelief.
You don't see any evidence for the Bible's claims. Let me ask you this then. Exactly what is missing? Exactly what would constitue evidence for the Bible, that you say is missing?
Actaually it works both ways to. People twist the bibel to justifiy there beleifs as well. take the westboro baptist church for example. They use the bible to justifiy their view agaist homosexuals
That's very true, and quite sad. There are people who twist the Bible to make it say what they want it to say. Some do so to reject the Bible, and some do so to make themselves believe that their unbiblical doctrine is biblical. However, one should judge Christianity by Christ, and not by Christians, who are imperfect people and may or may not be Christians, but may be fooling themselves.
As usual, this video is nothing but circular logic. While I don't believe or want to believe in the Christian God, I respect people that do. However, all your attempts to argue that Christian beliefs and assertions are "fact" have fallen incredibly flat in these videos.
The question, "Atheism: Fact or False?" is not a answerable question. Atheism is the rejection of a belief in a God/deity/higher power. Atheism has nothing to prove, because Atheists are not making a claim, they are rejecting a claim that God exists. Religion is the thing we should always be questioning, because it is religion that is making the claim that a God exists, and so far, has given no examinable evidence to suggest that it is correct.
Atheism is falsafiable. Since atheism is the rejection of a belief in God, then if God is proven true then atheism is proven false. Also, let me ask you this. What would consider as convincing evidence of God?
I'm not 100% sure what I would see as convincing. Evidence that can be verified through testing/ or unbiased primary evidence of God/ physically being in the presence of God? God is supernatural and therefore would be hard to prove its existance. But you can't really prove it exists by saying you can't prove it doesn't exist. Can you prove there aren't invisible ghost pixies dancing under the sea? Until you can prove it exists, you can't really prove it is real.
Well, what if I told you that the Bible had accurate prophecy, which preidcted historical events, and can be traced back to before said historical events?
Its irrelevant. My old teacher told me that religion would get out of hand, and lead to a major disaster. It did, 911 happened, caused by fanatics who mistook the word of the Quaran. Does that mean my teacher is touched by the almighty one? No, it means it was a coincidence. Prophecies have very little substance when using them as evidence.
The point is that your teacher wasn't being very prophetic. However, the Bible has several specific prophecies. You should see a vid I have called The Bible Fact or False
The problem is that your teacher was not claiming to recieve a message from God, was somewhat vague, and was saying that something that had happened several times before would happen again. People have always twisted all kinds of perfectly good causes (including religion) for their own greed/power. Theyve been doing it forever, and they probably always will, but it doesn't change the original cause.
I was showing prophecies have no substance. Bible prophecies are vague, and can be easily twisted to fit events. There should be a date for the prophecy to be completed, or I could say, place 'A' will be destroyed. In 100yrs time, if place 'A' is destroyed my prophecy is fulfilled, and I have won. Take the book of Ezikeil for example: it states Tyre will be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. However, Tyre was still standing centuries later when Alexander the Great conquered it. Therefore it was false.
In Ezekial 26 it says " O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you"
Later it says "I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar"
It then says a bunch of things that Neb. will do. It says "He will ravage your settlements", "he will set up siege works against you". He this. He that. His etc. Whenver it says 'he' its talking about Neb.
But it suddenly changes the pronoun and says "they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses"
When it says 'they' its not talking about Neb. It's talking about the many nations that will be brought against Tyre in verse 3 (Including Alexander the Great).
The thing is that Neb. did everything the passage said he'd do, and the 'many nations' did everything it said they'd do. And everything happened to Tyre that was said would happen.
But it still does not mean anything. Like I said, a prophecy MUST give a date for completion, or else by your logic I could say that one day the US will wage war against Russia/Korea/Iran. Its likely going to happen, considering they are'nt exactly best of friends, and because I haven't given a date, I can't ever be wrong, because until it happens the prophecy is still truthful. Its obsurd, right? Vague prophecy means nothing, it can't be used as proof as it is too flawed.
There are examples (Like Jesus and the Jewish temple) where its prophesized that a certain person would be born before a certain building is destroyed.
Also, you need to realize that the purpose of prophecy is for God to prove Himself to us. Not for us to know the future. For example, if it was prophesized that a lot of people would loose money in the stock market in October 2008, then before Oct everyone would get out of the stock market, and you'd have a self destructive prophecy
The point is that the reason that prophecy is symbolic because if people could use it to accurately predict the future (like if it had dates) then it would effect the event it was predicting, and hence possibly be self destructive, and not serve the original purpose, which was so that we could see that God knew the future, and hence know that He is God and praise Him.
I see your point, but it sounds like your clutching at straws. The point is that for a prophecy to have substance, it needs several things: a date and author, a specific incident (not some cryptic wording that can be twisted to fit certain situations), and a cause. Also, how do you know they are God's prophecies? Because you were told? Because you "feel" it in your heart? The prophecies can't be taken as evidence because of their flaws. You need solid evidence (like i said before) to prove God.
Let me ask you this. If someone said, in 1850, that in Germany a very evil man would become very powerful, attempt to destroy God's people, cause the entire world to go to war, and be deafeated, would you consider that prophecy?
You'd have to show me that prophecy, I've never seen it (link?). But in any case it was the previous German politicians who signed the Treaty of Versailles that caused Hitler to begin the war, Hitler didn't always have the ambition to cause a war. Those "November Criminals" caused the German people to hate the Allies, and Hitler gave them what they (many people) wanted...revenge. Also, Hitler believed tha he was doing God's work (read his speeches), so in his opinion, he was saving God's people.
You should see the 4th and 5th links in the description. The reason I used Germany as a prophecy example is because that's basically what a lot of Biblical prophecies looked like, in that they described specific people, specific countries, specific wars, ect. As far as Hitler is concerned, people have always twisted good causes for their own power. It isn't limited to religion and it doesnt change the cause. It is even debatable wether Hitler believed in God at all, but that's beside the point.
On that 5th link you sent: are the statements in the prophecies fulfilled column quoted? Because how can "His pre-existance" and "Resurected from the dead" be prophecy fulfilled? Or even taken as fact? Its based on faith.
The church is yet to prove that Jesus was resurrected...
I really don't get it :(
And I also saw that link of the prophecies about the miracles...
Well, not all those prophecies were about miraculous events, but still show the Bible foretold Jesus. Let me ask you this though. What would you consider as sufficient proof of the resurrection?
What I'm getting at is this. You say that reliable witnesses would be considered sufficient proof. How much more reliable can a witness be, than one who would be willing to die for his claim without any means to get worldly benefit out of it? My question is this. Is that sufficient proof of Christ's resurrection, and if not, why not?
A witness cannot be the person themselves. It's like me saying: "I'm the son of God, and I've just walked on water. I don't need witnesses, because I'm ready to die for my claim"
Its laughable.
An empty tomb is proof of an empty tomb - nothing more.
Its not just Jesus that's the witness though. Jesus had apostles that were witnesses. Almost all of them died because of their preaching the gospel. While you could consider Christ to be His own witness, its the aposltes that I'm focusing on. The apostles saw everything Jesus did, and they went out, preached about it, with no hope of worldy gain, didn't stop when they were persecuted and had their lives threatened, and became martyrs. How can they possibly be unreliable testimonies?
Because none of the authors of the texts that were written about Jesus were alive at the time that Jesus was alive, and so none of the authors actually saw Jesus, they are only wrting down what they have heard.
It all hearsay. If you've ever played Chinese Whispers as a child you'll know how quickly oral phrases/statements/stories can become obsurd. This is no different.
The authors of the New Testament were the aposltles and Paul, who all died for what they were preaching. One may argue that we don't have any copies that go back that far, but you have the exact some problem (actually usually much worse) with virtually every other important person from history. My question is, why are you holding Jesus up to such a high standard?
"How much more reliable can a witness be, than one who would be willing to die for his claim without any means to get worldly benefit out of it}?
Of course it isnt. think about it. Sucide bomber are willing to die in the name of Allah. Dose that mean that the Muslims are correct. No it just means they are deluded
Martyrdom does not necessarily prove veracity, but it does prove sincerity. The difference between the apostles and the suicide bombers is that the apostles actually saw Jesus face to face, and were with Him constantly for three years. They should've known wether or not He really was God. The suicide bombers however, died for what they taught. Its a case of primary vs secondary evidence, and there's quite a big difference.
"Let me ask you this. If someone said, in 1850, that in Germany a very evil man would become very powerful, attempt to destroy God's people, cause the entire world to go to war, and be deafeated, would you consider that prophecy"
Of course not- cause a) its kind of a given that he would be a very evil and poweful man to destory Gods people.
If the prophecy said that in 1939 Adolf Hilter would rise to power that is more convicing
The real evidence of what influenced modern religions can be found in UFOs. That is a rabbit hole which actually does provide reliable, undeniable proof. If facts is your game, then you may very well find something divine in the skies above your head, or perhaps in an altered state of mind, or maybe a mix of the two! or, quantum mechanics contains elements which seem to branch out into theories of consciousness, another avenue that may provide a new take on divinity.
What I have put forth is not 'God of the gaps'. It is simply that the universe shows clear indications of a designer. The fine tuned constants, first cause, and transcendent argument all point to a personal God.
lots of people consider christianity less attested than many of the other religions because jesus himself never wrote any of teachings. and actually they have a damn good point i
5
Abraham chose god over his family, he was free to do that, that was HIS choice to make and his problem, if I had lived in those times I would have advised him to think about how weak god may perceive him if the test was a little bit sophisticated than he would have thought, just as I am now with you.
Mark777X 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part 1
We have a God-given sense of what is right and wrong (Rom 2:14-15), but b/c of our flawed sin nature, that sense isnt perfect, and cant be put ahead of the word of God. God cannot lie (Titus 1:2). I suspect we're just going to have to agree to disagree, but you can't just say "God said this but He meant that." That is making up a false religion to satisfy what you think what God should be like.
ggcage 3 weeks ago
@ggcage
maybe god does not lie however one way or the other he was happy to deceive Abraham with regard to wanting Isaac slaying so it follows that he would be ok deceiving Abraham and all three nations that he was father to, christians muslims and jews, all as lost as each other.
the blind selfish crulty of Abraham is passed on to us, i wish to be better.
if Abraham passed this test then i will request that god put me back where he got me from as i do not wish to kneel before one so cruel
Mark777X 3 weeks ago
@ggcage
maybe you are right that we are just going to have to agree to disagree :(
im pretty sure you have spotted how a sceptic can be at the very least as moral as you and may make it to heaven before you
its very easy to be wrong.
you have been shown both doors i will leave the rest to you
good luck on your quest man xxx
Mark777X 3 weeks ago
@Mark777X
Part 2
Our opinions do not affect truth. God is the way He is and that is good and if we don't think it's good that's b/c of A) we don't understand God or B) we don't understand what "good" truly is. Please don't create an idol of what you think God should be and call that "God". That's not true worship. That's not submitting to Christ. A man-made god cannot save you from your sin and their eternal punishment.
ggcage 3 weeks ago
@Mark777X
Part 3 Christ died for your salvation. Only He can save you from your sin and its eternal punishment. Please don't waste the most precious gift of eternal salvation. You have to trust in God, and not lean on your own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)
ggcage 3 weeks ago
4
I strongly believe it is more likely that the whole point was to leave his creation with no option but to escape the dangers of faith and second hand knowledge through a personal independent fiercely moral drive for truth at all costs despite it being like eating barbed wire proving an authentic self sufficient rise above evil.
I fear that you feel that the difference between good and evil is not ours to judge? However you are part way there in knowing that stoning unruly children is bad
Mark777X 1 month ago
3
I agree that Abrahams test was possibly not pointless, however if Abraham had passed the test there would have been no need for Jesus or Mohammed as at the Abrahamic nation’s base would have a morality that is driven by love and impervious to evil trickery etc, Satan would have no power over such men, however, Abraham was left to believe that he had done the right thing and this explains to me why the Abrahamic religions are so schizophrenic at times.
Mark777X 1 month ago
2
I do not wish to complicate things by getting into the transcendental argument unless you insist, it does have its problems however, that aside, it would be unfitting of a perfect god to only allow evidence to those he made with enough IQ to comprehend it and condemn the rest to hell
If god is beyond evil then is it not obvious to you that Abraham should have said no?
Mark777X 1 month ago
@ggcage is it absolutly beyond all doubt that god may one day come down from heaven and say the bible was there to filter out all those who do not have the spine to see what is writen in their own hearts about truth.
and all those whe put love peace and understanding before the word of god showed enough spine and integrity despite the fear of hell are more than worthy of heaven
you never know, it may well be worth a thought or two before the end :)
love love love xxx
Mark777X 2 months ago
@Mark777X
Part 1/3
I see, but in the end no one is worthy of heaven. God’s standard is perfection and we have all failed that standard miserably. God is loving and merciful but He is also holy and just. If God were to forgive us without any kind of sacrifice, then He would be condoning our sin. He would be eternally giving up His holiness. That is why sin must be punished. That is why we deserve hell. Because we have all rebelled against an infinite God, we deserve an infinite punishment.
ggcage 2 months ago
@Mark777X
Part 2/3
I know it seems hard, but God is infinitely more holy and more wise than we will ever be. It is better to lean on God’s infinite wisdom than our own finite understanding, which is flawed and tainted with sin. If we put our own feelings ahead of the word of God, then we are essentially saying that we are holier than God. That is basically what Lucifer did when he first rebelled, but we have all rebelled against God and tried to be our own god one way or another with our sin.
ggcage 2 months ago
@Mark777X
Part 3/3
But God is so loving and merciful that He was willing to send His Son to die for us. He took on our sin and bore the infinite punishment that we deserved while He was on the cross. He literally went through hell for us. Its only by accepting what Jesus has done for us and giving our lives to Him that we can be forgiven and spend eternity with God in joy. Jesus died for you. Please don't put your knowledge ahead of God's. Please dont waste the most precious gift of eternal life
ggcage 2 months ago
@ggcage you may well be right but i have a decision that only i can make and it may be the most impotant decision iv ever made so i have to assume that god would give me the faculties to pass this test.
using my god given abilities i will wait until judgement and using my abilities i will have to try my best to see for myself if im being tricked by the devil
my heart seems to always tell me if something is bad
ill stand in front of god and see what my heart says
its the only way to be sure.
Mark777X 2 months ago
@Mark777X
Part I
I see, but God has given you the Bible, which is perfect, unlike your heart. What you have to realize is that your heart is tainted by sin. It is much better to trust in God's infinite wisdom than it is to trust in our own sin-tainted, flawed emotions. If we stand before God with our own hearts, we will go to hell, because our hearts are evil (Jeremiah 17:9). We seek out to rebel against God. Our emotions are wired to not give Him glory, but to seek out our own glory.
ggcage 2 months ago
@Mark777X
Part II
It's not a politically correct thing to say, but the Bible's clear about it, and it's much better to trust what God says than what is politically correct. You may feel your heart is right, but that doesn't make it so. Only Jesus can make us fit for God. Jesus died for you, so that you could have eternal joy with God and not eternal punishment.
ggcage 2 months ago
@Mark777X
Part III
The heart may seem right but it is not the determining factor of truth. God is. Read the first 5 chapters of Romans. It's a very good summary of how we need Jesus to save us from our sinful hearts. It is clear that our hearts are in rebellion to God and cannot be trusted.
Please don't put your heart ahead of God. True worship is about putting God first. Please don't make your heart an idol. Please don't waste the most precious gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ.
ggcage 2 months ago
@ggcage
blinded by your lust for salvation
abraham failed gods test
if abraham had said "no i can not and will not slay my son" he would have shown a fearless incorruptible morality that is driven by love and is inperviouse to trickery of any type including the promise of salvation, heaven and the everlasting and in the process risking hell for eterity
a perfect human
dont sell your heart for so small a price as a promise of heaven
when it is your turn with the knife what will you do ?
Mark777X 2 months ago
@Mark777X Abraham did not fail. He showed that he trusted God. If he had not sacrificed Isaac, there is good chance that God would not have sacrificed Jesus, and we would all be doomed to hell. So Abraham did do the right thing.
In all seriousness, what is better to trust: an infinite holy God, or the corruptible and highly impressionable human heart? Which of those can be manipulated and which never changes? Which of those is transcendent and holy and which is corrupted and flawed?
ggcage 1 month ago
@ggcage
that heart that you are so swift to reject as falible is the heart you use to choose your god !
you cant have both peices of cake
you will not be judged on which god you chose or what country you were born in !
you will be judged on your ability to turn your back on evil
you have the tools you need to pass this test
athiests, mulims and christians all mankind can pass this test
will you do evil to be saved ?
it is worth some serious thought
take it easy man xxx
Mark777X 1 month ago
@Mark777X
I see what you're saying, but I don't know God because of my heart. I know God b/c God, in His mercy chose to adopt me (Ephesians 1:4-5). Human beings do not initiate salvation. God does. They can't follow God w/out the Holy Spirit b/c their hearts are so corrupted
Where exactly did you get this idea that salvation is based on where we live, and which god we choose? Its nowhere in scripture. I'm not doing evil to get saved. I am following God's will, which there can be no greater good
ggcage 1 month ago
@ggcage
on this planet there is a roar of conflicting ideas on the one true god yes?
Ideas opposing ideas on what it takes to be saved
there is only one possible explanation for this noise
All men are born with the ability to see good from bad and the world is filled with things to lure the weak from seeing the truth.
Christians don’t kill for apostasy, why not ?
So you follow gods will and he asked you to something that your heart tells you is wrong you will fail gods test yes ?
Mark777X 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part I
I see, but every religion other than Christianity teaches that we must earn our salvation; that we must make ourselves fit for God. However, the Bible teaches that we have a fallen sinful nature and are completely unable to save ourselves, and that it is only because Jesus has taken on our punishment that we have any hope to escape hell and get to heaven.
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part II It puts the focus on God instead of man, which is what you'd expect from a religion that is from God and not man. Jesus is the only way to heaven. Please don't waste such a precious gift. It's the greatest gift ever and it would be a great tragedy if it were wasted.
ggcage 1 month ago
@ggcage
you failed to answer the quesion so i will try to answer it for you
the reason christians dont generaly kill for apostasy despite the bibles instruction to kill for apostasy is, people know in their hearts it is wrong, ergo, some of the bible is at the very least a deceit.
how could i trust you and your road to salvation if you refuse to adress this anomaly you have of picking and chosing the word of god, then refusing to agnowledge that you do it?
are you really that special?
Mark777X 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part I I'm sorry I must have misunderstood you. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach Christians to kill for apostasy. There were some very strict commands in the Old Testament, but those commands were directed to the ancient Jews, not Christians. The ancient Jews were a very specific people with a very specific purpose. If the Jewish culture became impure, then Jesus would not have been able to do what He had to do, and w would all be doomed to hell.
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part II
So we should in fact be thankful that God would justly execute such strict commands for our salvation. If you're interested, I made a video on this subject called "Old Testament Troubles"
Anyways, Christians are commanded to love. Jesus said "Love your enemies" which even today is considered to be radically peaceful. There is nowhere in scripture where we are commanded to hurt people of other faiths. Such a thing goes against Christ's message of love.
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part III We aren't ignoring the Bible, but realizing what things are and are not written directly to us. I know Christians say "It's out of context" more than they probably should, but context is very important in understanding scripture. I could quote scripture and say "Judas hanged himself", "do likewise" , "and do so quickly". Such is an extreme example, but it shows how important context is.
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part IV
There are some hard things in the Bible, but context is vastly important. We aren't ignoring scripture, but looking at context. People throw out all kinds of misconceptions, and there are some things that are hard to understand, but you have to trust in God over your own understanding. Please don't let misconceptions like this distract you from the most important gift of salvation from sin and hell and eternal life with God in joy through Jesus Christ.
ggcage 1 month ago
@ggcage
Deuteronomy 13: 6-9
i guess we going get into spliting hairs on interpritation etc
maybe it is just a little bit to hard for you to understand that abraham may have failed the test
you say context is important,what are you using besided your own understanding to make this destinction ? are you trusting your understanding/interpritation or trusting god ?
the only interpritation that doesnt leave god looking terrible is abraham failed his test along with millions of others
Mark777X 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part I
If you read the Bible, not little snippets of it but read the narrative of the Bible itself, then the context is obvious. There is no serious Bible scholar that believes that that verse is written to anyone other than the ancient Jews.
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part II
If we do not like the way God does things, that does not negate the fact that He is still God and Lord and King. We ought to worship God b/c He is God not b/c He is God and we like Him. If we worship God only b/c He is the way we believe He ought to be, then are really worshiping our an idea about God that we hold and not God Himself.
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part III
You may say that God is terrible, but He is holy. He demands our awe and reverence. He cannot stand sin. If God were to not punish sin, then He would be condoning it, and He would eternally give up His holiness.
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part IV
You shouldn't be so quick to say that God is evil, b/c He forgave us. Because of our sin and rebellion, and the desire to worship ourselves, God would've been perfectly justified if he sent us all to hell right not. But He is so merciful that He sent His only Son to die on the cross to take on our sin. Jesus literally suffered hell for us while He was on the cross. The physical agony from being crucified was just the tip of the iceberg. Please don't give up such a precious gift
ggcage 1 month ago
@ggcage
Iv done my share of reading the bible, with all due respect it made me feel ill and I guess that’s the reason I didn’t end my search for salvation there
You say just because I don like what he does that doesn’t stop him being god
I say, just because he is god that doesn’t stop him being bad and if he is bad then that
tiny bit of this universe that’s mine and feels what it feels will make a judgement on him despite any attempts by me to thwart that
Mark777X 1 month ago
@ggcage
So I can either try to lie about it in front of god or try to be honest
If you are right it looks like im going to hell either way so I may as well stand up and be counted and let him know that at least one soul in this universe thinks he’s unworthy
I can only hope that you are wrong about Abraham or that there is no god
Mark777X 1 month ago
@ggcage It would help if you understood that its beyond my ability to arbitrarily choose how I feel about evil even if its god doing the evil
Life may be different for you
Maybe you have an ability that I lack?
Maybe you are the lost sheep? maybe maybe maybe ? there are lots of maybe’s
Maybe Abraham did fail the test and you are the one on the cusp of damnation and im on the cusp of passing the test?
I would sooner fail this test by being me than pass it pretending to be someone else
Mark777X 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part I
Its impossible for God to be evil bc His nature is the absolute standard of what goodness is. It doesn’t make anything arbitrary, bc there's nothing less arbitrary than God. His nature is eternal, holy, unchanging, absolute, and ultimately very good. Think about it. What ground for morality can there be that is less arbitrary than God? I don't see how the human heart, which is flawed, sinful and subject to change can be said to be a better and less arbitrary grounds for morality
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part II
Abraham knew God would save Isaac. He trusted God. That is the point. The point is that we ought to trust God and not twist scripture to make it say what we want it to say. Things will work out for good in the end, just like with Abraham. Things will work out for God's glory. Please don't waste the sacrifice of Christ. He is the only way we can be saved from hell and spend eternity in heaven.
ggcage 1 month ago
1
If its impossible for god to be evil then Abraham must have failed the test
If Abraham knew god would stop him then the test was pointless.
If Abraham and god where just collaborating to set the moral standard then they where making people who “think” they know god vulnerable to false prophets advocating terrible things (suicide bombers?)
Mark777X 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part I
Let me ask you this. What is your definition of evil? What exactly makes something good or evil?
The reason I'm asking this is that if there is no God, if the universe we live in is nothing but matter and energy and their governing forces, then things like good and evil cannot exist but are only inventions of the human mind. In order for transcendental laws to exist, like those of physics, morality, logic ect, then a transcendental mind (God) must exist.
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part II
Also, it should be realized that if God exists, then since God is the source and the benchmark by which all good is judged, then what He says is good has a lot more bearing than what we think is good. Since we are fallible creatures, it is possible that what we think is good is actually evil and vice versa, but it is impossible for God to make such an error.
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part III
Also, since God does not lie (Hebrews 6:18) it is safe to assume that if God says that something is good, then it really is good. God is not going to require that you do something evil. Such a thing would be against the nature of God. All God requires for salvation is that we follow Jesus, give our lives to Him, and accept what He has done for us.
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part IV
Abraham's test was not purposeless. It shows how much He trusted God and how important our faith in God is. If Abraham had not had faith, then He would not have received God's promise, and there's a good chance that Jesus would not have been born and we would have no way to be reconciled with God, so it can be seen why faith is so important.
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part V
Abraham put God before his family and himself. Is that evil? What is more important than God? If we put something ahead of God, then that is what we are giving our worship. Abraham had faith in God. Yes, it is not a pretty place to be in to make such a decision, but if you think about how God is more important than anything, how can that be evil?
ggcage 1 month ago
@Mark777X
Part VI
But I really would like an answer to that question, "what is the definition of evil, what makes something good/evil?" It's a big question that people don't think about.
ggcage 1 month ago
@ggcage
1
I can not expect a world of peace with a thoughtful calm clear drive towards the best that is possible if I am unwilling to or unable to live up to this myself
My drive to be good is a selfish drive to make my world a better place for me and all else to live in, enjoy and understand
My example of Evil is discovering that something you do is wrong and knowingly continuing with that “something” regardless
Mark777X 1 month ago
@ggcage
2
Your whole motivation is about YOUR salvation!
You make yourself sound like you would do anything as long as it ended in YOUR salvation
My soul does not sell so easily and cheaply (I will not do evil for god)
If god comes to you and asks you to kill someone you love (or anyone else) please put your salvation aside, trust your heart and say “NO!”
Mark777X 1 month ago
How so you know that Jesus died on a cross? How do you know that Jesus lived at all? How do you know that God exist? How do you know that God is good or omniscient or omnipotent? The answer to each of these question is that the bible says it is so. Finally, how do you know that the bible is the true word of God? once again the answer is that it says so in the bible. This is the quintessential example of circular logic. Thankfully we now embrace empiricism. Most of us anyway...
danielstruve 4 months ago
@danielstruve
Part I
I see, but there is a lot of noncircular evidence that the Bible is the word of God. In fact that's pretty much what my channel is devoted to. The Bible is full of prophecy. There are a couple of links in my channel description that show hundreds of prophecies in the Bible. These are not falsified either. For example, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the prophecies in the book of Isaiah that predict details of Jesus' life were in fact written before Jesus.
ggcage 4 months ago
@danielstruve
Part II
Also, the apostles were with Jesus constantly for 3 years. They should have known whether or not they actually saw, heard, and touched Him after He was resurrected. They would have known whether or not Jesus was legitimate. However, they were willing to risk their lives over and over again to share the gospel, knowing that they would most likely be killed, and all of them were killed except maybe John. Either the apostles willingly died for a lie, or Jesus was legitimate
ggcage 4 months ago
there's no proof that jesus was resurrected. The link you put up was just more bullshit with no facts. I'm so tired of stupid christians who think they are smart and have some sort of proof. Listen you fucking dumb ass. There is no other religion more shady that yours. I mean come on. the bible was translated wrong. This has been proven. Then King james wrote his own version of it. Not from the original version but from the version the was translated wrong. Try a little harder next time.
SuperMrAtheist 7 months ago
@SuperMrAtheist I don't understand. Exactly how was the Bible "translated wrong?" Also, King James did not write his won version, and even if he had, there are still many versions today that are translated from the original Greek/Hebrew.
ggcage 7 months ago
@ggcage well you don't understand because you have not study the bible and the history of the bible as much as I have. If you're going to believe in something or even talk about it. Please don't come to me unless you have done your home work. I don't have time for people like you. Go read some more them come back and then we'll talk.
SuperMrAtheist 7 months ago
GREAT VIDEO! Turn to Jesus before its too late...
sararudd92 8 months ago
that's so sady
ou can't even look t your own advice and apply
ever hear that 'practice what you preach' line?
you do know there weren't even any witnesses to a resurrection, right?
GodsArePeopleToo 9 months ago
@GodsArePeopleToo If by "resurrection" you mean the exact moment that Jesus came back to life, then no, nobody witnessed that because He was locked in a tomb. However, people did witness Jesus die and then witnessed Him alive after that, so for all practical purposes, there were many witnesses to Jesus' resurrection.
I would go on further but I'm running out of space. Anyways, if you're really interested I have a couple of videos on the resurrection and the veracity of Jesus' deity.
ggcage 8 months ago
@ggcage - they witnessed someone on a cross.
if you saw someone get shot and don't see them move, paramedics remove the body (and that's all you see) and three days later you see the person walking down the street, you gonna say he was resurrected?
AngelOfDeath9010 8 months ago
I see, but what you have to realize is that Jesus wasn't shot. He was scourged to the point of mutilation, crucified, stabbed with a spear, and then laid in tomb behind a several-ton boulder. Recovering from a gunshot wound with today's medicine is quite plausible, but even if Jesus did somehow recover from all than and move a huge boulder and sneak past a Roman guard, He would've been so mutilated that there is no way He could have passed for the Son of God with a glorified divine body.
ggcage 8 months ago
wow, deluded. you are just another zeitgeist guy
qtzlctl2012 1 year ago
Wow u theists are so delusional and can't prove that there is a god. I'm ready for a challenge for I have defeated many theists!
jonboy1028 1 year ago
1: your claim that jesus was resurrected are not valid. yes, i watched the vid and posted a comment go read it.
2:you just destroyed your own argument with this line:
"if a beleif is made up, then either its origins will be shady or it can be traced to a group of people or a single person"
ever heard of a guy named jesus? he's pretty much the icon of christianity
3: i looked at your link and said prophesies haven't happened yet. i would post but i'm out of charachters
promotecheese2010 1 year ago
lol fail. just fail. Im surprised the comments aren't disabled. Or have I spoke too soon.
AlphaHorizon 1 year ago
Just a point you made on 2:10
If the bible was edited that would explain why so many prophecy were true.
because it would mean they edited the bible after the event happend
badpanda84 2 years ago
I see what you're saying, but there are a few problems with it. For one thing, if a prophecy was written after the event, then it wasn't really prophecy, and there is no evidence that that ever happened. Also, if someone did edit a prophecy, they would be editing the word of God, which was very, very unlawful, and would've gotten the person stoned, and the edited version would've been lost.
ggcage 2 years ago
@ggcage
You are aware of the considerable differences between the Codex Siniaticus, the Codex Vaticanus, and the Textus Receptus, are you not?
tifforo1 1 year ago
@ggcage Most of what you know as the bible was put together during the Council of Nicaea, where they voted in the stories that made Jesus look like the messiah while filling in the gaps that didn't. Jesus "fulfills" prophecies because they wrote it that way in 325. That's over three hundred years after his supposed death and resurrection (of which there are no writings about him made during the time in which he was supposedly alive).
jumpmonkey03 1 year ago
@jumpmonkey03 The Bible was not written in 325. Nicaea did not vote on stories, but on books. Which books were authentic and which ones weren't was already commonly known, and was quite obvious. All the council did was make everything official, since it was the first time persecution ceased in the Roman Empire, and Christianity could safely come into the light of day. I would go further but I don't have the space. If you're interested, this video is quite informative...
watch?v=mh4OoIseGGs
ggcage 1 year ago
@ggcage I know it wasn't absolutely written at that time, but a lot of the books had name changes, editing changes, and splicing that occurred in that time to make the names fit, and the fact still remains that there are no historical records written about Jesus during the time in which he was supposed to have lived, all we have is hearsay about him from those who claimed to have known him.
jumpmonkey03 1 year ago
@jumpmonkey03 That last part may be true but what you have to realize is this. The earliest biography of Alexander the Great was 400 years after he died. The earliest writing we have from Plato is a copy from 1400 years after he died. This is quite common with ancient figures. Jesus, who has documents on Him written 100 years after His death, is really well recorded. This wasn't the information age. The lack of material we have on Jesus from His lifetime is not a reason to doubt His existence.
ggcage 1 year ago
@jumpmonkey03 We there is a ancient history by da name of Josephus who wrote about Jesus's teaching, miracles, crucifiction, & resurrection. theres a few others as well. Think about this all ancient manuscripts r recorded by historians dat lived well over 300 years of da event, like Julius Ceasers Galic wars, but da gospels were about 40 years after da event, if one cant trust dat than u cant trust any other ancient manuscriptes of any kind. People only deny this because they dont want God
jermainekg6 1 year ago
@badpanda84
Well said! That's the point I think that is forgotten here...
danielstruve 4 months ago
the bible is a load of lies. there is no true writer who takes credit for it, just a collection of reclusive individuals, who lived in caves, and probably ate mushrooms that had hallucinogenic properties. Therefore, one can conclude also from the content of the book, and things, like touching the sun. that the bible is illogical, and as true as a tall-tale.
AkatsukiDalek 2 years ago
Where in the Bible does it mention touching the Sun? Do you have any evidence that these people live in caves or ate mushrooms? Many of the people who wrote the Bible, especially the prophets and the apostles, went out and willingly died for what they preached. The testimonies are about as solid as they can be. Also, a lot of the books are quite prophetic in nature, and accurate too. Not something one would expect from a hallucination.
ggcage 2 years ago
The touching the sun is a metaphor showing something that is physically impossible. for instance, the bible says a burning bush with "God's voice" talked to Moses. And also it is known from archeology that the people back then suffered health problems from unhealthy diets of the biblical times, and as a result saw and even heard things that were not there.
AkatsukiDalek 1 year ago
True, but hallucinations are usually random. Hallucinations don't make multiple prophetic statements that come true. Also, people who have hallucinations don't have the exact same hallucination as they would have in the resurrection and the feeding of the 5,000. Also, there is no evidence that any of this, but there is in fact a good bit of evidence that the Bible is God's word.
ggcage 1 year ago
Well Horus was ressurected, so was Baldur, and many many other gods and spirits throughout human imaginative history. Also christianity has its roots in various other religions and mythologies from around the world. It tends to absorb others, as recently as the renaissance from celtic beliefs. The story of christ has been told in other religions long before christ. And the bible, old and new testament is rife with contradictions.
Swidhelm 2 years ago
One thing I have noticed with Bible "contradictions" is that it is usually done by someone who wants to read the Bible only so they can twist it and justify their disbelief. The thing is that if you seek to misunderstand God, then that's what you'll get.
Also, while I don't have the space to go over it here, I have very recently posted a video series on the subject of Christianity being an imitiation of previous religions. The thing is that this theory really falls apart when its examined
ggcage 2 years ago
The hebrew religion stems from earlier religions, and even other earlier gods are mentioned in the OT as demons. Some of the stories have existed in the middle east long prior to the Abrahamic religions, such as Gilgamesh. The stories took new forms, new faces, were embellished and evolved. Stories tend to do that.
Swidhelm 2 years ago
There is quite a bit of truth in that but that doesn't make them false. For instance, nearly every ancient culture has a myth about the whole world flooding, and a single family being saved. In fact, it shows that all these stories originate from a single event, and for reasons such as prophecy, wisdom, and history it is safe to assume that the Bible's account is most accurate. If you're interested you can see my video on it, Zeitgeist Proven False Part 3. The latter 2 minutes covers the flood.
ggcage 2 years ago
There is no evidence for a global flood though. There is however evidence for massive flooding in the dead sea area, which is probably where the stories originated. Many cultures indeed have stories of massive floods and global floods. But many cultures have stories about dragons too, and they do not exist.
Swidhelm 2 years ago
One thing that should be realized is that dragon myths aren't quite as widespread as flood myths. Also, there are theories that these stories arose because of dinosaur fossils.
But anyways, there is evidence of a global flood. Many fossils are only possible in a 'rapid burial' that would occur in a flood. Also, there is evidence that at one time the Earth's oceans' salinity decreased suddenly, as in a fresh water deluge.
ggcage 2 years ago
There is no evidence for a global flood. Floods all over the world at various times yes, but not one giant global flood. In fact at one point earth was a giant desert, during Pangea, killing off most life. That's before the dinosaurs.
Swidhelm 2 years ago
Well let me ask you this. You claim there is no evidence for a global flood. Exactly what would be convincing evidence of such an event, or any event in the Bible?
ggcage 2 years ago
For a flood you would have to have consistent evidence throughout the same strata world wide. Some of that evidence would be a mass extinction less than 6000 years ago. You would find salinity dilution like crazy in that same layer all over the world. I'm sure there is a ton of other evidence I can't even think of right now that would be required too . . . all within the same layer, all around the globe, wherever one looked. One pocket lacking evidence would collapse the whole flood idea.
Swidhelm 2 years ago
Part I
One thing that should be realized is that during the flood, there would've been pockets of fresh and salt water. The terrain would have changed drastically, so to say it has to all be in the same layer doesn't really line up with the flood strory.
ggcage 2 years ago
Part II
There is a lot of evidence of flood. If you're really interested, you can google it. You'll find some pretty interesting stuff. Anyways, one thing you should realize is that if "look" for evidence of these sort of things only to justify your disbelief, then you'll get nowhere. If you truly seek God, then you'll find God, but if you seek only to justify what you've already concluded, then that's what you'll get.
ggcage 2 years ago
I let the evidence take me where it will. If it shows something that for some reason I wish it didn't, well I have to accept it. To start with pre- drawn conclusions is not science. Creation science maybe, but not real science.
Swidhelm 2 years ago
I see, but sometimes I feel like a lot of atheists say that they have "looked" for evidence of God, when really all they've looked for is reasons to disbelieve. The thing is that if you're not searching for something then you're not going to find. There is evidence of God out there, but you can't just shut your mind off to Him. If you truly seek God you'll find God, but if you seek misunderstanding, then you'll get misunderstanding.
ggcage 2 years ago
I let evidence take me where it will. I have not come across any that suggests a god exists. And even if I did, that doesn't mean it is the god of the old testament. If a god did exist, it is just as likely to be Odin as Yahweh.
Swidhelm 2 years ago
Well, let me ask you this. What would you consider as evidence of God? What would you expect a true religion to have that would make it stick out?
ggcage 2 years ago
Well for starters a god that doesn't hide and demand blind faith. One that shows itself.
Swidhelm 2 years ago
God isn't hiding from you. Like any other relationship, a relationship with God requires faith in trust in the person, just b/c thats the nature of a relationship. God has revealed Himself in His word and His creation. Its a matter of trusting Christ to remove our sins so we can have a relationship with God, similar to how trust is required for any relationship. Christ's sacrifice was the greatest gift ever given and it would be a tragedy if wasted.
ggcage 2 years ago
Difference being when you have a relationship with someone, you can see them, touch them, hear them, smell them, etc. If God is revealed through literature, then so has Spiderman been revealed. One is just as credible as the other.
Swidhelm 2 years ago
Part I
I see, but there is a big difference between God and Spiderman. There arent certain properties of the universe, including laws, tuned constants, and order that imply Spidermans existence. Also, Spiderman's books arent prophetic, & dont really offer the wisdom that the Bible does. For instance, Jesus said to love your enemies. This completely goes against human nature, yet forgiveness is the only way we can truly move on after we've been hurt, which makes me think its from God and not man
ggcage 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
" Also, Spiderman's books arent prophetic, & dont really offer the wisdom that the Bible does. For instance, Jesus said to love your enemies"
The teachings of spiderman hold plenty of wisdom. With great power comes great responsibility. Dont get mixed up in love triangles if youre a clone. Interesting bad guys are impossible to kill. The list is endless.
SidewaysGts 2 years ago
" For instance, Jesus said to love your enemies. This completely goes against human nature"
So what buddah said to love you enemies as well. Jesus isnt the only one going saying love thy neighbour.
badpanda84 2 years ago
Part I
Its true that "Do to others as you'd have the do to you" is found in every major religion. But "Love your enemies" goes much deeper. The Golden Rule is a basic principle of human society, but "Love your enemies" means to actually have compassion for those who wish you harm.
ggcage 2 years ago
@ggcage
"Its true that "Do to others as you'd have the do to you" is found in every major religion. But "Love your enemies" goes much deeper."
"In fact it goes completely against human nature, which is evidence that its from God, and Jesus is the only religious figure to ever teach this"
You should probably fact-check before you make this incorrect claim.
If you go to unification net: world scripture: theme 144, you will find lots of religious leaders saying this.
tifforo1 1 year ago
@tifforo1
My Lord! Others have fallen back in showing compassion to their benefactors as you have shown compassion even to your malefactors. All this is unparalleled.
3.Jainism. Vitaragastava 14.5
I should be like the sun, shining universally on all without seeking thanks or reward, able to take care of all sentient beings even if they are bad, never giving up on my vows on this account, not abandoning all sentient beings because one sentient being is evil.
5.Buddhism. Garland Sutra 23
tifforo1 1 year ago
@tifforo1
Of the adage, Only a good man knows how to like people, knows how to dislike them, Confucius said, "He whose heart is in the smallest degree set upon Goodness will dislike no one."
tifforo1 1 year ago
@ggcage
Here's the best one of all:
I treat those who are good with goodness,
And I also treat those who are not good with goodness.
Thus goodness is attained.
I am honest with those who are honest,
And I am also honest with those who are dishonest.
Thus honesty is attained.
-The Tao Te Ching, chapter 49. The Tao Te Ching is the most influential Taoist scripture, written between the 3rd and 6th centuries B.C.E. Indeed, finding this passage makes me want to read it.
tifforo1 1 year ago
@tifforo1
I found all of this within a few minutes on that world scripture page.
Do good to him who has done you an injury.
10.Taoism. Tao Te Ching 63
Conquer anger by love. Conquer evil by good. Conquer the stingy by giving. Conquer the liar by truth.
13.Buddhism. Dhammapada 223
Man should subvert anger by forgiveness, subdue pride by modesty, overcome hypocrisy with simplicity, and greed by contentment.
14.Jainism. Samanasuttam 136
tifforo1 1 year ago
Well T1, I have to admit that you got me on that one. However, I believe that most people see it as a fundamental truth as is described in Rm 2:14. I know it can be argued that such a widely held belief could come by evolution, but then that would make morality subjective which would lead to all sorts of problems, but that's a different subject.
ggcage 1 year ago
Part II
It goes much deeper than just the human nature of treating your neighbors decently so that they'll return the favor. In fact it goes completely against human nature, which is evidence that its from God, and Jesus is the only religious figure to ever teach this
ggcage 2 years ago
Part II
The thing is that unlike God, Spiderman doesn't have the science, the history, or the philisophical logic behind him. There is a lot of evidence of Christianity out there, but you can't just shut yourself off to it. If you want to believe that there is no God, than that's your choice, but Jesus died for you. Its the greatest gift ever given and it'd be a tragedy if it were wasted.
ggcage 2 years ago
There is no science or logic behind god. If there were intellectuals would have little trouble with the idea of a god. Philosophy can be largely debated. And loving your enemies is idiotic regardless. You do not have to love your enemies to forgive them. Just understand them. Which takes compassion--that is a human trait, not a divine trait. Second, the properties of the universe are not so finely tuned as you might think.
Swidhelm 2 years ago
An example of the not so fine tuning of the universe are things like black holes. No one knows what exactly they are, or where they go, or why they emit ridiculous amounts of radiation while swallowing everything else. Second, the Milky Way (our galaxy) is on a collision coarse with
Andromeda. Which means not only will earth not be here for ever, but the entire milky way is going to be torn apart. Then there are things like Quazars. Or singularities. The laws are stable, but not fine tuned.
Swidhelm 2 years ago
Not all intellectuals have a problem w/ the idea of a God. Some of the most brilliant minds in history have been theists. The word "love" has come to mean a lot of different things, but in this since it can be said to be the same thing as compassion
The universe is not perfectly tuned, but it is far, far more fine tuned then it would be w/out a designer. However, it should be noted that our sin has seperated us from God, corrupted creation, and hence, you don't have a perfectly tuned universe
ggcage 2 years ago
Compassion is not love, though I suppose related. I think the idea of a loving god punishing all of man kind because of his own mistake (if he knows all did he not know that Eve would have eaten the apple? Or that the snake would encourage her? And if he knew why put the tree of knowledge there to begin with? And if he knew then he owes us heaven for his own blunder.) Would you punish your child for something you did? Really?
Swidhelm 2 years ago
Part I
"Love" has come to mean many different things. Someone may say they love their wife, and the same day say that they love pizza. Love in the sense I talked about earlier is highly related to compassion in the sense that it means that one cares about another.
ggcage 2 years ago
The thing is that it wasn't really God's blunder. God created us to love Him, which requires free will. If He had made us so we couldn't sin, then we wouldn't really have free will and that would defeat the whole purpose. But God has been loving through His act on the cross. It may seem odd that God would choose to do things the way He did, but I do go into some of the reasons behind it in this video...
watch?v=DeyVOjUIrz4
ggcage 2 years ago
If he wanted us to have free will why make any decision other than to love him a sin and subject to eternal torture? That's not free will, that's an ultimatum. There's a difference. A god that created everything, buggered off and didn't care what man did would value free will more than Yahweh does. Not to mention, that if you want someone to love you, best give them freedom, and respect, not a yoke.
Swidhelm 2 years ago
Yeah but beliving in a personal God that performs miricales , forgives sin and sends people to hell. Now that is another story
badpanda84 2 years ago
" is that it is usually done by someone who wants to read the Bible only so they can twist it and justify their disbelief"
Really? I find its usually done by people who are simply critical of information fed to them.
SidewaysGts 2 years ago
Ok, I can see that. But let me ask you this. What exactly is it in the Bible that causes you to disbelieve? If you are truly critical then you should have a reason for your disbelief.
ggcage 2 years ago
"What exactly is it in the Bible that causes you to disbelieve? "
The lack of evidence.
SidewaysGts 2 years ago
You don't see any evidence for the Bible's claims. Let me ask you this then. Exactly what is missing? Exactly what would constitue evidence for the Bible, that you say is missing?
ggcage 2 years ago
Actaually it works both ways to. People twist the bibel to justifiy there beleifs as well. take the westboro baptist church for example. They use the bible to justifiy their view agaist homosexuals
badpanda84 2 years ago
That's very true, and quite sad. There are people who twist the Bible to make it say what they want it to say. Some do so to reject the Bible, and some do so to make themselves believe that their unbiblical doctrine is biblical. However, one should judge Christianity by Christ, and not by Christians, who are imperfect people and may or may not be Christians, but may be fooling themselves.
ggcage 2 years ago
Here is the problem though. Who wrote the bible - Did Jesus write the bible or was it written by man who as you correctly pointed out are imperfect.
badpanda84 2 years ago
As usual, this video is nothing but circular logic. While I don't believe or want to believe in the Christian God, I respect people that do. However, all your attempts to argue that Christian beliefs and assertions are "fact" have fallen incredibly flat in these videos.
TRexAndTheRaceCar 2 years ago
Well, let me ask you this. Why don't you want to believe in the Chritian God, and what would you consider as 'noncircular' solid evidence?
ggcage 2 years ago
The question, "Atheism: Fact or False?" is not a answerable question. Atheism is the rejection of a belief in a God/deity/higher power. Atheism has nothing to prove, because Atheists are not making a claim, they are rejecting a claim that God exists. Religion is the thing we should always be questioning, because it is religion that is making the claim that a God exists, and so far, has given no examinable evidence to suggest that it is correct.
VermilionUK 2 years ago
Atheism is falsafiable. Since atheism is the rejection of a belief in God, then if God is proven true then atheism is proven false. Also, let me ask you this. What would consider as convincing evidence of God?
ggcage 2 years ago
I'm not 100% sure what I would see as convincing. Evidence that can be verified through testing/ or unbiased primary evidence of God/ physically being in the presence of God? God is supernatural and therefore would be hard to prove its existance. But you can't really prove it exists by saying you can't prove it doesn't exist. Can you prove there aren't invisible ghost pixies dancing under the sea? Until you can prove it exists, you can't really prove it is real.
VermilionUK 2 years ago
Well, what if I told you that the Bible had accurate prophecy, which preidcted historical events, and can be traced back to before said historical events?
ggcage 2 years ago
Its irrelevant. My old teacher told me that religion would get out of hand, and lead to a major disaster. It did, 911 happened, caused by fanatics who mistook the word of the Quaran. Does that mean my teacher is touched by the almighty one? No, it means it was a coincidence. Prophecies have very little substance when using them as evidence.
VermilionUK 2 years ago
Part 2
The point is that your teacher wasn't being very prophetic. However, the Bible has several specific prophecies. You should see a vid I have called The Bible Fact or False
ggcage 2 years ago
Part 1
The problem is that your teacher was not claiming to recieve a message from God, was somewhat vague, and was saying that something that had happened several times before would happen again. People have always twisted all kinds of perfectly good causes (including religion) for their own greed/power. Theyve been doing it forever, and they probably always will, but it doesn't change the original cause.
ggcage 2 years ago
I was showing prophecies have no substance. Bible prophecies are vague, and can be easily twisted to fit events. There should be a date for the prophecy to be completed, or I could say, place 'A' will be destroyed. In 100yrs time, if place 'A' is destroyed my prophecy is fulfilled, and I have won. Take the book of Ezikeil for example: it states Tyre will be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. However, Tyre was still standing centuries later when Alexander the Great conquered it. Therefore it was false.
VermilionUK 2 years ago
Part I
In Ezekial 26 it says " O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you"
Later it says "I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar"
It then says a bunch of things that Neb. will do. It says "He will ravage your settlements", "he will set up siege works against you". He this. He that. His etc. Whenver it says 'he' its talking about Neb.
ggcage 2 years ago
Part II
But it suddenly changes the pronoun and says "they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses"
When it says 'they' its not talking about Neb. It's talking about the many nations that will be brought against Tyre in verse 3 (Including Alexander the Great).
The thing is that Neb. did everything the passage said he'd do, and the 'many nations' did everything it said they'd do. And everything happened to Tyre that was said would happen.
ggcage 2 years ago
But it still does not mean anything. Like I said, a prophecy MUST give a date for completion, or else by your logic I could say that one day the US will wage war against Russia/Korea/Iran. Its likely going to happen, considering they are'nt exactly best of friends, and because I haven't given a date, I can't ever be wrong, because until it happens the prophecy is still truthful. Its obsurd, right? Vague prophecy means nothing, it can't be used as proof as it is too flawed.
VermilionUK 2 years ago
PART I
There are examples (Like Jesus and the Jewish temple) where its prophesized that a certain person would be born before a certain building is destroyed.
Also, you need to realize that the purpose of prophecy is for God to prove Himself to us. Not for us to know the future. For example, if it was prophesized that a lot of people would loose money in the stock market in October 2008, then before Oct everyone would get out of the stock market, and you'd have a self destructive prophecy
ggcage 2 years ago
PART II
The point is that the reason that prophecy is symbolic because if people could use it to accurately predict the future (like if it had dates) then it would effect the event it was predicting, and hence possibly be self destructive, and not serve the original purpose, which was so that we could see that God knew the future, and hence know that He is God and praise Him.
ggcage 2 years ago
I see your point, but it sounds like your clutching at straws. The point is that for a prophecy to have substance, it needs several things: a date and author, a specific incident (not some cryptic wording that can be twisted to fit certain situations), and a cause. Also, how do you know they are God's prophecies? Because you were told? Because you "feel" it in your heart? The prophecies can't be taken as evidence because of their flaws. You need solid evidence (like i said before) to prove God.
VermilionUK 2 years ago
Let me ask you this. If someone said, in 1850, that in Germany a very evil man would become very powerful, attempt to destroy God's people, cause the entire world to go to war, and be deafeated, would you consider that prophecy?
ggcage 2 years ago
You'd have to show me that prophecy, I've never seen it (link?). But in any case it was the previous German politicians who signed the Treaty of Versailles that caused Hitler to begin the war, Hitler didn't always have the ambition to cause a war. Those "November Criminals" caused the German people to hate the Allies, and Hitler gave them what they (many people) wanted...revenge. Also, Hitler believed tha he was doing God's work (read his speeches), so in his opinion, he was saving God's people.
VermilionUK 2 years ago
You should see the 4th and 5th links in the description. The reason I used Germany as a prophecy example is because that's basically what a lot of Biblical prophecies looked like, in that they described specific people, specific countries, specific wars, ect. As far as Hitler is concerned, people have always twisted good causes for their own power. It isn't limited to religion and it doesnt change the cause. It is even debatable wether Hitler believed in God at all, but that's beside the point.
ggcage 2 years ago
On that 5th link you sent: are the statements in the prophecies fulfilled column quoted? Because how can "His pre-existance" and "Resurected from the dead" be prophecy fulfilled? Or even taken as fact? Its based on faith.
The church is yet to prove that Jesus was resurrected...
I really don't get it :(
And I also saw that link of the prophecies about the miracles...
*rolls eyes*
VermilionUK 2 years ago
Well, not all those prophecies were about miraculous events, but still show the Bible foretold Jesus. Let me ask you this though. What would you consider as sufficient proof of the resurrection?
ggcage 2 years ago
A way of proving that it can be done? Reliable eye witness accounts of him "waking from the dead"?
Some form of testable evidence to show that he was in the cave (do we know where the cave is?), and proof that his hands moved the stone?
Something/pr something similar of the above I suppose.
But what are you getting at when you asked that question?
VermilionUK 2 years ago
What I'm getting at is this. You say that reliable witnesses would be considered sufficient proof. How much more reliable can a witness be, than one who would be willing to die for his claim without any means to get worldly benefit out of it? My question is this. Is that sufficient proof of Christ's resurrection, and if not, why not?
ggcage 2 years ago
A witness cannot be the person themselves. It's like me saying: "I'm the son of God, and I've just walked on water. I don't need witnesses, because I'm ready to die for my claim"
Its laughable.
An empty tomb is proof of an empty tomb - nothing more.
VermilionUK 2 years ago
Its not just Jesus that's the witness though. Jesus had apostles that were witnesses. Almost all of them died because of their preaching the gospel. While you could consider Christ to be His own witness, its the aposltes that I'm focusing on. The apostles saw everything Jesus did, and they went out, preached about it, with no hope of worldy gain, didn't stop when they were persecuted and had their lives threatened, and became martyrs. How can they possibly be unreliable testimonies?
ggcage 2 years ago
Because none of the authors of the texts that were written about Jesus were alive at the time that Jesus was alive, and so none of the authors actually saw Jesus, they are only wrting down what they have heard.
It all hearsay. If you've ever played Chinese Whispers as a child you'll know how quickly oral phrases/statements/stories can become obsurd. This is no different.
VermilionUK 2 years ago
The authors of the New Testament were the aposltles and Paul, who all died for what they were preaching. One may argue that we don't have any copies that go back that far, but you have the exact some problem (actually usually much worse) with virtually every other important person from history. My question is, why are you holding Jesus up to such a high standard?
ggcage 2 years ago
"How much more reliable can a witness be, than one who would be willing to die for his claim without any means to get worldly benefit out of it}?
Of course it isnt. think about it. Sucide bomber are willing to die in the name of Allah. Dose that mean that the Muslims are correct. No it just means they are deluded
badpanda84 2 years ago
Martyrdom does not necessarily prove veracity, but it does prove sincerity. The difference between the apostles and the suicide bombers is that the apostles actually saw Jesus face to face, and were with Him constantly for three years. They should've known wether or not He really was God. The suicide bombers however, died for what they taught. Its a case of primary vs secondary evidence, and there's quite a big difference.
ggcage 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Let me ask you this. If someone said, in 1850, that in Germany a very evil man would become very powerful, attempt to destroy God's people, cause the entire world to go to war, and be deafeated, would you consider that prophecy"
Of course not- cause a) its kind of a given that he would be a very evil and poweful man to destory Gods people.
If the prophecy said that in 1939 Adolf Hilter would rise to power that is more convicing
badpanda84 2 years ago
The real evidence of what influenced modern religions can be found in UFOs. That is a rabbit hole which actually does provide reliable, undeniable proof. If facts is your game, then you may very well find something divine in the skies above your head, or perhaps in an altered state of mind, or maybe a mix of the two! or, quantum mechanics contains elements which seem to branch out into theories of consciousness, another avenue that may provide a new take on divinity.
cheers
zapproowsdower 2 years ago
What is this reliable, undeniable proof?
ggcage 2 years ago
What would you consider to be convincing evidence of God?
ggcage 2 years ago
What I have put forth is not 'God of the gaps'. It is simply that the universe shows clear indications of a designer. The fine tuned constants, first cause, and transcendent argument all point to a personal God.
ggcage 2 years ago
How do you get a lack of evidence? You'd be shocked at how much evidence there is of God.
ggcage 2 years ago
Think what you want, but your not doing anyone any favours. You're just trying to prove people wrong for your own self enjoyment.
cyx77 2 years ago
i'll make my video called religion: true or false to parody this.
adrenacrumb 2 years ago
too*
adrenacrumb 2 years ago
tenets*
screwed that one all up lol.
adrenacrumb 2 years ago
lots of people consider christianity less attested than many of the other religions because jesus himself never wrote any of teachings. and actually they have a damn good point i