1.when you die Jesus will present himself to you and you will have a final chance to be save when he offers his hand take it mueslam athiest and all the rest have a chance at glory.john 14'6
2. The rapture is not real there is and never will be such a thing.
3. it is a back door in a sence refer to answer one. such as retarded people or mentally ill doing things that may be a sin to most of us will be considered at Judging
4.We preach because it is our duty we are taught to preach. God wants everyone to love him.Not standing up for what you believe and you might as well stand against it.
5. God has never put anyone in hell.Everyone there has chosen to be there.
6. he is not unaware of their obliviousness refer to answer one.
7. God did or is niether you are blinded. God of the new testament and the old are the same God but he has given us free will and responds different to us now that Jesus was on earth and after the floods he promised to never again cleanse the earth.
Dont just pick verses from the bible that suit your needs you must read and understand the context it was mean
@mattroam77 1.) Whatever happened to Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being "unpardonable"?
2.) That seems to be a major division point amongst Christians.
3.) Finally a coherent answer.
4.) It doesn't make it right. You preach what you take on faith to others even though it very well could lead to their damnation. Refer to first point.
5.) He created hell. He made the rules. He's omniscient. He knows the absolute future. Therefore he's the one sending people there.
@LucasI3434 Blasphamy to the holy spirit is unpardonable. The easiest way I can explain it through what I believe is: if you had a child whom you loved and cared about and told them to look before crossing the road for their safety and they didnt, you would make them atone for what they have done, but you would forgive them. God is the same. Thats were purgatory comes in. be regretful and atone for your sins then you may go to heaven.
@mattroam77 It all depends on how old that child is. If it's a 2 year old, I can't expect him to understand the difference between right and wrong, and until then I'd have to go with him when he crosses the street. If it's a 14 year old, I would explain to him why he has to in order for him to understand why it's important. There's no atonement needed.
You see, now you're contradicting yourself. Every other sin is forgivable, but blasphemy isn't. That's the difference.
@mattroam77 "Unpardonable" is an absolute when comparing it to other sins. You can receive forgiveness for the others, but if you ask for forgiveness for blasphemy, you WON'T be forgiven. Hence UNpardonable.
Satan forced nothing. God created him knowing full well that he would rebel and God knew he would create hell due to his omniscience.
How many times must I say it? Free will is an illusion if your God exists. This is the problem here. Omniscience is absolute and infinite. If God is...
@mattroam77 ...unbeknownst to even the SLIGHTEST detail of anything at all, he isn't all knowing. So in order for him to all knowing, he must know ever last one of our actions, our reactions, and the future outcomes of those actions. Free will implies that we have choices where the futures are undetermined which would contradict this omniscience. Therefore, free will is only an illusion if God exists. Every point I've made thus far cannot be refuted by saying we have a choice, because we don't.
@LucasI3434 if I teach you the word wrong and you believe it you cannot be held accountable on the wrong points I taught. Satan forced the creation of hell and the only people who go there are ones who do not ask for forgiveness and truely mean it. once in hell youll never get out. thats why there is the inbetween because nothing that is ompure can go to heaven but bieng unpure does not mean you deserve hell
@LucasI3434 the reason and the only reason blasphamy is unpardonable is because you cannot be cleansed pure for heaven without the Holy Spirit God Jesus & the holy spirit are one......and why are you so stuck of free will? God is all knowing and I cannot explain what is a mystery of my faith...and since we are splitting hairs you are not an atheist atheism does not exist!
although you may want to believe there is no god you have stated "if he exist" many times admitting a possibility ur agnostic
@mattroam77 "If he exists" is called a hypothetical situation .In order for us to have this conversation certain assumptions must be made for certain arguments. Besides, agnosticism is the belief that there will never be evidence for a deity or deities. It's not the equivalent of "I don't know." The reason people see it as such is because it's ambiguous, i.e. it's possible to be an Agnostic Atheist, or an Agnostic Theist.
I'm "stuck on free will" because it's the only nail needed in...
@mattroam77 ...the Judeo-Christian God's coffin. You keep going on and on about how we choose to do this and have the free will to do that, but in reality your religion is a paradox; based around choices while at the same time your God leads to a form of predestination and determinism due to his knowledge of EVERYTHING.
"...because you cannot be cleansed pure for heaven without the Holy Spirit God..." Then WHY say it's UNpardonable? The prefix "un" is an absolute negative leaving no leeway.
@mattroam77 Atheism doesn't exist? Well seeing as how you're making the negative claim, the burden of proof lies upon me. So I propose this evidence in support of the existence of Atheism. Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, me, AronRa, Thunderf00t, TheLivingDinosaur, and many others hold no belief in God(s). Therefore, atheism does exist and your argument that it doesn't, doesn't hold true.
This is how that works. Not by complaining how the conversation is going and developing your own tangent.
@mattroam77 7.) God can't respond to anything. Since he's omniscient, he knows EVERYTHING including our future actions AND his own future actions. Therefore, free will is only an illusion, and God can't respond to anything because that implies that he has a will which would contradict his omniscience. Therefore, hell is an unjust punishment because we don't really have a choice with our actions. So he KNEW his only son would die, and he KNEW the flood would fail in cleansing.
@LucasI3434 since we have free will and God knows what in our current situation we will do he adds people and things into life that can if we choose have and effect on us.it is our choice he gives us a trillion piece puzzle and we have to put it together or we can ignore whats bieng given us.
@mattroam77 7.) Con't Furthermore, if God is without variance and the only perfect entity, then how could he possibly change himself from the vengeful cruel God, to a loving God? It doesn't matter if Jesus came, because a personality change would contradict his perfection and immutability (Numbers 23:19 I believe).
Oh the classic Christian saying. "You took it out of context." I've read the Bible 4 times, almost 5 and I used to be an Evangelical Lutheran for 16 years. I KNOW the Bible.
people so they could survive as the world grew bigger and his followers became bigger and stronger more influential he allowed them to do his work(spreading the word to those who have an ear) and kick the dust at the feet of those who dont.
knowing the bible and understanding the bible are not the same thing.I believe that God knew how things would be he acted in a different manner due to the people of free will he was dealing with. he has always been a loving God. In the past he protected those who loved him and his chosen
We are not his equals and yet we make ourselves out to be. God's grace works always, even if it doesn't lead to our salvation.
What I mean by that is that we all want to be God, we want to deny His authority and take control of our own lives. God doesn't strap shackles to our hands to drag our unwilling hearts behind his chariot. He let's us try our best to be the sovereign ruler of our lives, but we surely fail, and his grace will see us to the fiery end, or to heaven.
So, god lets us be deny his authority, but we shouldn't and he may or may not punish us for it and since he is perfect no one has the right to complain.
You see, what you are doing is not actually answering his question. All you are doing is basically saying it's one or the other, what happens after you die is just up to him. You could be a great guy but because you were ignorant of god you may or may not be going to heven.
So, you made tons of comments just to say "I dunno lol"
@BeRad117 and you are basically putting words into my mouth. Thanks for that bud. I hope that you will find as much fulfillment in live as you hope for. Whether God is real or not, you are who you are and I am who I am, and life, for me, just isn't worth living without God. It's not sad, it's reality. Life is a short waste of time.
Okay and now that I took exactly what you said and explained what it means to every one and shown how stupid it sounds you are trying to use that against me as a defense mechanism to basically say "Oh you don't understand, I never said that!" even though you did and thats basically what it defines. Now you try to drop out of the conversation whilst sounding smart and trying make yourself look better then you truly are.
Truthfully, it doesn't work that way. Sorry... ):
@BeRad117 What do you expect me to say? "You're right, I'm wrong"? Ok, you're right, I'm wrong... Do you expect me to stutter? Praise BeRad and Lucas13434's name for using arguments that any mindful person has already contemplated.Really guys. Do you think that I haven't considered your reasoning before? I'm sorry for starting something that I clearly can't finish, even though there's no way either us would be swayed by the other.
I may be stupid, I may be wrong. But I know I'm not. Dealwithit
It is a pretty simple argument and it is one that you don't have answer to make your god sound good in, so instead of answering it you give one of two generic answers either A: God will forgive depending on the situation of the person's whereabouts or B: you can never know nor argue with how he fully works.
So technically you're right this whole argument is practically useless. Why bring it up in the first place to waste the time and give him more comment publicity?
God is God. He makes his own game. If you truly want an answer to "why an all-loving, all-powerful God would allow his children to burn in hell", then refer to the origin of the dilemma: the fall of man. Why would God allow sin to entire a perfect world?
God, in his omniscience, has planned everything to be the way it has been and will be, for the ultimate goal of glorifying himself. Why is he so selfish to glorify himself? Because he is the only thing in existence that deserves glory.
@ThomasintheMind That's a cop out and you know it is. Saying "that's just how it is" isn't an answer; it's just a statement of "I don't know but I'm not going to question it.". It's this kind of complacency that makes me detest all religions, but more specifically Christianity.
Omniscience eh? So he has everything planned out; set in stone. How then, can we have free will if our futures are already predetermined? Am I condemned to hell simply because God planned it that way?
@LucasI3434 I'm not complacent. I question this daily and struggle with it.
Free will is an illusion. I could explain it, but it might take a while.
Let me ask you... is God forcing you to reject him? I think not, but he knew from the beginning that you would reject him and he still chose to bring you into creation. Your "free will" is a fulfillment of His TRUE free will.
The fact that you may be denying God with contentment completely justifies your eternal condemnation.
But that would imply that he ISN'T omniscient. If we have free will, that would assume that there are multiple, undetermined pathways in our lives that are dependent upon our decisions that we make in our lives.
Of course he's not dragging us unwillingly. If he exists, he tricks us into believing we have control over things and we have free will, even though, due to his all-knowing characteristic, we don't.
ANY being. that DEMANDS worship doesn't deserve any.
@LucasI3434 We don't have free will in the sense that we have control over own fate, but rather in acknowledgement of our actions and their resulting consequences. To us it is free will, because IT IS US, not God, who, in OUR minds, choose which way to go. God has given us that illusion of free will because we are consciously making our own decisions, but our fate is already decided. It would be different if God was clearly telling us to commit sin.
@ThomasintheMind Quit dancing around the subject. Any amount of conscious control of our own decisions automatically entails that God isn't omniscient.
Of course he demands worship. He wants us to worship him, but then punishes one with eternal spiritual death if they DON'T worship him.
I've actually found life to have much more meaning as an Atheist than it ever had when I was a Christian, because I've realize that life is finite and we only get a single run through things.
@LucasI3434 like I said, this debate it useless, because you can't understand me and I can't understand you. Without writing another 2 pages of content, all I can say to this is.. ok, good for you. What drug are you taking?
@ThomasintheMind But it's God's will that I'm an Atheist. He's condemning me because that's all apart of his divine plan for glory as you put it. In my mind, I freely reject him, but according to your assertions, I never had a choice.
Of course it's useless. Especially since you don't understand how all encompassing and absolute omniscience is.
@LucasI3434 you are not condemed because you are atheist lucas. live a good and honest life treat others how you want to be treated and when you die, Jesus will stand before you and offer his hand, I know you may not believe this now but when he stands before you after death....take his hand and walk. You dont believe in him or love him but he believes in you and loves you.
Since free will is indeed an illusion as you so claim, then God is NOT justified in condemning me for all eternity, because I don't have control over what I'm doing. It's predetermined that I would be an Atheist; predetermined that I would reject him, so yes. He IS forcing me to reject him even though I shouldn't be aware of it.
@LucasI3434 But since you freely reject him, you are therefore convinced that this is all bullshit. You're not looking up at God screaming "Why me? Why are you casting me into Hell?". You don't believe in Hell, you don't believe in God. You are home-bound for hell, because that's home to all who just want to be their own God.
lol, ur funny....thing is, i won't try to answer.......Good luck finding the answer, because i knew the answers myself.....well, after years of searching, but still got the answer myself.....
Further, the Bible explicitly tells us that we SHOULD tell the entire world about Jesus. Telling people about Jesus allows people the FREE WILL to choose or reject God. In my humble opinion, if I was you, I would be less concerned with the fate of the people who have never heard of Jesus, and more concerned with the people who HAVE heard, but have REJECTED Him...of course, I'm talking about you here. :)
@SongOfSiren22 I tend to worry about others instead of myself. Besides, I tend not to worry about Atheists and the non-religious. We have our own reasons to reject not ONLY your god but every other god ever created mankind. You see, we're not at all that different. I just believe in one less god than you do.
One quick question though. If God doesn't want to send people to hell, then why does he? It's not like there's this "How to be God" manual with rules he has to follow no matter what.
I like your video. I think it's articulate and argued well. You pose very good questions. If God saved all the people that have never heard the Word, the best thing the Christian church could do is to keep quiet so that no one has the chance to reject the idea...After all, God doesn't want people to go to hell and made that fully known when he sent his son, Jesus, to die for EVERY single person.
Romans ch 1 or 2 covers that, in that they will be judged by what they knew,
just like when indians worshiped totem poles, there where prolly some rebelious indians up on a hill praying to God saying their tribesmen are nuts & that he maybe wasnt sure who God was but that he wasnt that totum pole !
as for missionaries, well they are out to reach out to the totem polers & let the guy on the hill know who the God he was seaking is, not that complicated if you knew the word
@ncwdane That STILL doesn't answer the question. Let me put it this way:
When one preaches the Gospel, no matter who does it, or how it is done, the people whom you are explaining it to, may still reject this new religion in lieu of their current religion whatever the circumstances or their reasoning may be. So I ask again. Why run the risk?
@LucasI3434 I donjht see how you8 cant see that your questions been answered
But it's Kinda like telling someone their House is on Fire & to get out,
maybe they wont believe you but at least you'll increase their chances of maybe smelling the smoke on time cause you increase awarness, in Lue of leaveing it all up to them & them alone to feel the heat or smell the Smoke & get out all on their own.
@LucasI3434 Hello.... Earth to Lucas, Earth to Lucas,
do you have a copy ???y responses I have made it clear on more than one response that GOD has made provisions for those who havent Directly Heard the Gospel 1st Hand
no wonder your opinions are so far off !
God manefest HIMSELF as a Man & took punishment on the cross for you,
& you shall NOT escape paying for your own sin if you reject such a Great of salvation,
Look to the Cross & pain he took & say he doesnt care ??? thats dumb
@ncwdane No they most certainly have NOT made anything clear.
The analogy you use asserts that the person inside the fire, would somehow figure it out on their own, but their chances would be higher if someone else told them. In REALITY though, your analogy holds as much water as a pasta strainer. Nobody in the past 2000 years has, or will magically know Jesus out of nothing. This is where the discrepancy lies.
Answer yes or no. Nothing more. Does god condemn those who have never heard of Jesus?
@LucasI3434 14 ROMANS 2;14=16(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
@ncwdane How the FUCK could yes or no be "misleading"? It's a very simple question, and requires a very simple answer. Either he condemns those who have never heard of Jesus for eternity due to their inherent sin, or he allows them salvation out of pity because they had no fucking clue what a Jebus is.
YES or NO. If you can't grasp an answer out of the bullshit that was your Romans post, that's your problem. Telling me to interpret the verse myself isn't getting us anywhere.
yes or no w/o an explination could be missleading & just from your response,
That confirms my suspicion, quit being a Dick ,
it's rather Obvious as I said their is a provision for someone who hasn't directly heard !
did you read it, if that doesnt make things clear to you I cant Help you !
But NO it's not about pitty cause they havent heardm certain things are apparently already written on our hearts & they're still as it says, Judged VIA Jesus
@ncwdane So in summation your answer is no. Fina-fucking-ly I get a half decent answer that's relatively clear.
What suspicion? That's I'm intentionally "misleading" you? Bullshit. I'm frustrated that it took this long to get an answer that wasn't incoherent bullshit with extra shit.
So if they follow their own law it's what they're judged on... so answer the second set of questions. Simple answers.
What happened to Jesus being the only way into heaven?
@ncwdane Yes or no isn't always a trap. Sometimes it could be, like the question you posed here, but this is nowhere in the same arena with my question. Both questions assume something; yours assumes that I molest children, mine assumes that God sends people to hell. This is where the questions differ dramatically. My assumption is correct, whereas yours is complete unevidentiary bullshit. My question is fair, yours isn't. You would do well to learn the difference.
@LucasI3434 your arguments w/ God, I posted His explination~ when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges ppls secrets through Jesus Christ.
@ncwdane Answer my other two questions. You can repost your Biblical BS all you want; it isn't going to change anything, namely because it's the same verse over and over again.
@LucasI3434 not the best of analogies, just knowing of Jesus is not enough to save we need to put our faith in him,
he has commanded us to make disciples of all nations, it doesn't matter how many people I save when i go sharing, even if i save one it would be for the glory of God
God works through us, we are the one's that are there to make a difference,
@jonnjoe2 So your god condemns people simply because they've never heard of Jesus and some rib woman ate from a magic tree even though she didn't know any better? Wow. How merciful of God.
@LucasI3434 We were created to have fellowship with God, when Eve ate the Fruit we were separated, by accepting Jesus in to our lives, our relationship is bridged, those without that relationship will be condemned
God's Love is undeserved, we should be condemned due to our sinful nature.
Ephesian -8For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -9 not by works, so that no one can boast. NIV
an analogy of grace, say you hook me in the face, you'd expect me to hit you back right?
instead i get up and give $100. Did you do to deserve to get that money?
i'd like to thank you for challenging me in my walk with Christ, it has strengthened me
@jonnjoe2 I hardly think the "hook to the face" analogy is equal in regards to the whole Garden of Eden incident.
Eve disobeyed God, that's it. There was no harm done, except for the fact that God blew this thing waaayyy out of proportion like the drama queen he is and decided to punish all of humanity for it, even though Eve had no prior knowledge as to what good and evil were, so she didn't know disobedience was "evil".
The god in YOUR mind is a complete and utter dick.
@LucasI3434 Come on thats not fair, she was warned not to eat the fruit from the forbidden magic tree of mystery, she would have been fine if she hadn't listened to that damned talking snake, which thinking about it, suggests she had already eaten some mushrooms of the magic variety, greedy bitch.
& as I said before, in Romans it has a Clause for those w/ proper faith who havent heard,
but you have, & many who havent and many who have are condemend already,
you have a chance still, dont worry about someone you think doesnt & maybe does,
your gonna feel foolish if they did according to there knopwledge get into heaven & you according to your knowledge don't cause you made excuses you didnt cause they might not, silly boy
they can come to the father when there in heaven instead, Its my oppinion but i still remember the parable in luke 8 i think. Besides the gospel just gives people no excuse, you've got conciouse without god, so they dont have a garanteed chance, just if they do right, so think of people who have no morals.
Okay... seriously. The pixels of the very beginning of the intro are bigger than fucking CATS. That's one of the reasons I re-uploaded it to begin with! DAMN YOU YOUTUBE!!
1.when you die Jesus will present himself to you and you will have a final chance to be save when he offers his hand take it mueslam athiest and all the rest have a chance at glory.john 14'6
2. The rapture is not real there is and never will be such a thing.
3. it is a back door in a sence refer to answer one. such as retarded people or mentally ill doing things that may be a sin to most of us will be considered at Judging
mattroam77 7 months ago
4.We preach because it is our duty we are taught to preach. God wants everyone to love him.Not standing up for what you believe and you might as well stand against it.
5. God has never put anyone in hell.Everyone there has chosen to be there.
6. he is not unaware of their obliviousness refer to answer one.
mattroam77 7 months ago
7. God did or is niether you are blinded. God of the new testament and the old are the same God but he has given us free will and responds different to us now that Jesus was on earth and after the floods he promised to never again cleanse the earth.
Dont just pick verses from the bible that suit your needs you must read and understand the context it was mean
mattroam77 7 months ago
@mattroam77 1.) Whatever happened to Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being "unpardonable"?
2.) That seems to be a major division point amongst Christians.
3.) Finally a coherent answer.
4.) It doesn't make it right. You preach what you take on faith to others even though it very well could lead to their damnation. Refer to first point.
5.) He created hell. He made the rules. He's omniscient. He knows the absolute future. Therefore he's the one sending people there.
6.) Refer to 1st point.
Con't
LucasI3434 7 months ago
@LucasI3434 Blasphamy to the holy spirit is unpardonable. The easiest way I can explain it through what I believe is: if you had a child whom you loved and cared about and told them to look before crossing the road for their safety and they didnt, you would make them atone for what they have done, but you would forgive them. God is the same. Thats were purgatory comes in. be regretful and atone for your sins then you may go to heaven.
mattroam77 7 months ago
@mattroam77 It all depends on how old that child is. If it's a 2 year old, I can't expect him to understand the difference between right and wrong, and until then I'd have to go with him when he crosses the street. If it's a 14 year old, I would explain to him why he has to in order for him to understand why it's important. There's no atonement needed.
You see, now you're contradicting yourself. Every other sin is forgivable, but blasphemy isn't. That's the difference.
Con't
LucasI3434 7 months ago
@mattroam77 "Unpardonable" is an absolute when comparing it to other sins. You can receive forgiveness for the others, but if you ask for forgiveness for blasphemy, you WON'T be forgiven. Hence UNpardonable.
Satan forced nothing. God created him knowing full well that he would rebel and God knew he would create hell due to his omniscience.
How many times must I say it? Free will is an illusion if your God exists. This is the problem here. Omniscience is absolute and infinite. If God is...
Con't
LucasI3434 7 months ago
@mattroam77 ...unbeknownst to even the SLIGHTEST detail of anything at all, he isn't all knowing. So in order for him to all knowing, he must know ever last one of our actions, our reactions, and the future outcomes of those actions. Free will implies that we have choices where the futures are undetermined which would contradict this omniscience. Therefore, free will is only an illusion if God exists. Every point I've made thus far cannot be refuted by saying we have a choice, because we don't.
LucasI3434 7 months ago
@LucasI3434 if I teach you the word wrong and you believe it you cannot be held accountable on the wrong points I taught. Satan forced the creation of hell and the only people who go there are ones who do not ask for forgiveness and truely mean it. once in hell youll never get out. thats why there is the inbetween because nothing that is ompure can go to heaven but bieng unpure does not mean you deserve hell
mattroam77 7 months ago
@LucasI3434 the reason and the only reason blasphamy is unpardonable is because you cannot be cleansed pure for heaven without the Holy Spirit God Jesus & the holy spirit are one......and why are you so stuck of free will? God is all knowing and I cannot explain what is a mystery of my faith...and since we are splitting hairs you are not an atheist atheism does not exist!
although you may want to believe there is no god you have stated "if he exist" many times admitting a possibility ur agnostic
mattroam77 7 months ago
@mattroam77 "If he exists" is called a hypothetical situation .In order for us to have this conversation certain assumptions must be made for certain arguments. Besides, agnosticism is the belief that there will never be evidence for a deity or deities. It's not the equivalent of "I don't know." The reason people see it as such is because it's ambiguous, i.e. it's possible to be an Agnostic Atheist, or an Agnostic Theist.
I'm "stuck on free will" because it's the only nail needed in...
Con't
LucasI3434 7 months ago
@mattroam77 ...the Judeo-Christian God's coffin. You keep going on and on about how we choose to do this and have the free will to do that, but in reality your religion is a paradox; based around choices while at the same time your God leads to a form of predestination and determinism due to his knowledge of EVERYTHING.
"...because you cannot be cleansed pure for heaven without the Holy Spirit God..." Then WHY say it's UNpardonable? The prefix "un" is an absolute negative leaving no leeway.
Cont
LucasI3434 7 months ago
@mattroam77 Atheism doesn't exist? Well seeing as how you're making the negative claim, the burden of proof lies upon me. So I propose this evidence in support of the existence of Atheism. Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, me, AronRa, Thunderf00t, TheLivingDinosaur, and many others hold no belief in God(s). Therefore, atheism does exist and your argument that it doesn't, doesn't hold true.
This is how that works. Not by complaining how the conversation is going and developing your own tangent.
LucasI3434 7 months ago
@mattroam77 7.) God can't respond to anything. Since he's omniscient, he knows EVERYTHING including our future actions AND his own future actions. Therefore, free will is only an illusion, and God can't respond to anything because that implies that he has a will which would contradict his omniscience. Therefore, hell is an unjust punishment because we don't really have a choice with our actions. So he KNEW his only son would die, and he KNEW the flood would fail in cleansing.
Con't
LucasI3434 7 months ago
@LucasI3434 since we have free will and God knows what in our current situation we will do he adds people and things into life that can if we choose have and effect on us.it is our choice he gives us a trillion piece puzzle and we have to put it together or we can ignore whats bieng given us.
mattroam77 7 months ago
@mattroam77 7.) Con't Furthermore, if God is without variance and the only perfect entity, then how could he possibly change himself from the vengeful cruel God, to a loving God? It doesn't matter if Jesus came, because a personality change would contradict his perfection and immutability (Numbers 23:19 I believe).
Oh the classic Christian saying. "You took it out of context." I've read the Bible 4 times, almost 5 and I used to be an Evangelical Lutheran for 16 years. I KNOW the Bible.
LucasI3434 7 months ago
people so they could survive as the world grew bigger and his followers became bigger and stronger more influential he allowed them to do his work(spreading the word to those who have an ear) and kick the dust at the feet of those who dont.
mattroam77 7 months ago
knowing the bible and understanding the bible are not the same thing.I believe that God knew how things would be he acted in a different manner due to the people of free will he was dealing with. he has always been a loving God. In the past he protected those who loved him and his chosen
mattroam77 7 months ago
Read first post.
We are not his equals and yet we make ourselves out to be. God's grace works always, even if it doesn't lead to our salvation.
What I mean by that is that we all want to be God, we want to deny His authority and take control of our own lives. God doesn't strap shackles to our hands to drag our unwilling hearts behind his chariot. He let's us try our best to be the sovereign ruler of our lives, but we surely fail, and his grace will see us to the fiery end, or to heaven.
ThomasintheMind 8 months ago
@Thomas
So, god lets us be deny his authority, but we shouldn't and he may or may not punish us for it and since he is perfect no one has the right to complain.
You see, what you are doing is not actually answering his question. All you are doing is basically saying it's one or the other, what happens after you die is just up to him. You could be a great guy but because you were ignorant of god you may or may not be going to heven.
So, you made tons of comments just to say "I dunno lol"
BeRad117 8 months ago
@BeRad117 and you are basically putting words into my mouth. Thanks for that bud. I hope that you will find as much fulfillment in live as you hope for. Whether God is real or not, you are who you are and I am who I am, and life, for me, just isn't worth living without God. It's not sad, it's reality. Life is a short waste of time.
ThomasintheMind 8 months ago
@ThomasintheMind
Okay and now that I took exactly what you said and explained what it means to every one and shown how stupid it sounds you are trying to use that against me as a defense mechanism to basically say "Oh you don't understand, I never said that!" even though you did and thats basically what it defines. Now you try to drop out of the conversation whilst sounding smart and trying make yourself look better then you truly are.
Truthfully, it doesn't work that way. Sorry... ):
BeRad117 8 months ago
@BeRad117 What do you expect me to say? "You're right, I'm wrong"? Ok, you're right, I'm wrong... Do you expect me to stutter? Praise BeRad and Lucas13434's name for using arguments that any mindful person has already contemplated.Really guys. Do you think that I haven't considered your reasoning before? I'm sorry for starting something that I clearly can't finish, even though there's no way either us would be swayed by the other.
I may be stupid, I may be wrong. But I know I'm not. Dealwithit
ThomasintheMind 8 months ago
@ThomasintheMind
It is a pretty simple argument and it is one that you don't have answer to make your god sound good in, so instead of answering it you give one of two generic answers either A: God will forgive depending on the situation of the person's whereabouts or B: you can never know nor argue with how he fully works.
So technically you're right this whole argument is practically useless. Why bring it up in the first place to waste the time and give him more comment publicity?
BeRad117 8 months ago
@BeRad117 PS. It does work that way. I just did it.
ThomasintheMind 8 months ago
God is God. He makes his own game. If you truly want an answer to "why an all-loving, all-powerful God would allow his children to burn in hell", then refer to the origin of the dilemma: the fall of man. Why would God allow sin to entire a perfect world?
God, in his omniscience, has planned everything to be the way it has been and will be, for the ultimate goal of glorifying himself. Why is he so selfish to glorify himself? Because he is the only thing in existence that deserves glory.
ThomasintheMind 8 months ago
@ThomasintheMind That's a cop out and you know it is. Saying "that's just how it is" isn't an answer; it's just a statement of "I don't know but I'm not going to question it.". It's this kind of complacency that makes me detest all religions, but more specifically Christianity.
Omniscience eh? So he has everything planned out; set in stone. How then, can we have free will if our futures are already predetermined? Am I condemned to hell simply because God planned it that way?
What a dick.
LucasI3434 8 months ago
@LucasI3434 I'm not complacent. I question this daily and struggle with it.
Free will is an illusion. I could explain it, but it might take a while.
Let me ask you... is God forcing you to reject him? I think not, but he knew from the beginning that you would reject him and he still chose to bring you into creation. Your "free will" is a fulfillment of His TRUE free will.
The fact that you may be denying God with contentment completely justifies your eternal condemnation.
ThomasintheMind 8 months ago
@ThomasintheMind *Read first post*
But that would imply that he ISN'T omniscient. If we have free will, that would assume that there are multiple, undetermined pathways in our lives that are dependent upon our decisions that we make in our lives.
Of course he's not dragging us unwillingly. If he exists, he tricks us into believing we have control over things and we have free will, even though, due to his all-knowing characteristic, we don't.
ANY being. that DEMANDS worship doesn't deserve any.
LucasI3434 8 months ago
@LucasI3434 We don't have free will in the sense that we have control over own fate, but rather in acknowledgement of our actions and their resulting consequences. To us it is free will, because IT IS US, not God, who, in OUR minds, choose which way to go. God has given us that illusion of free will because we are consciously making our own decisions, but our fate is already decided. It would be different if God was clearly telling us to commit sin.
ThomasintheMind 8 months ago
@ThomasintheMind Quit dancing around the subject. Any amount of conscious control of our own decisions automatically entails that God isn't omniscient.
Of course he demands worship. He wants us to worship him, but then punishes one with eternal spiritual death if they DON'T worship him.
I've actually found life to have much more meaning as an Atheist than it ever had when I was a Christian, because I've realize that life is finite and we only get a single run through things.
LucasI3434 8 months ago
@LucasI3434 like I said, this debate it useless, because you can't understand me and I can't understand you. Without writing another 2 pages of content, all I can say to this is.. ok, good for you. What drug are you taking?
ThomasintheMind 8 months ago
@ThomasintheMind Life.
LucasI3434 8 months ago
@ThomasintheMind But it's God's will that I'm an Atheist. He's condemning me because that's all apart of his divine plan for glory as you put it. In my mind, I freely reject him, but according to your assertions, I never had a choice.
Of course it's useless. Especially since you don't understand how all encompassing and absolute omniscience is.
LucasI3434 8 months ago
@LucasI3434 you are not condemed because you are atheist lucas. live a good and honest life treat others how you want to be treated and when you die, Jesus will stand before you and offer his hand, I know you may not believe this now but when he stands before you after death....take his hand and walk. You dont believe in him or love him but he believes in you and loves you.
mattroam77 7 months ago
@LucasI3434 He doesn't demand worship. You don't have to worship him, and in doing so you choose to be your own god. But life sucks without God.
ThomasintheMind 8 months ago
@ThomasintheMind *I'm not complacent...*
Since free will is indeed an illusion as you so claim, then God is NOT justified in condemning me for all eternity, because I don't have control over what I'm doing. It's predetermined that I would be an Atheist; predetermined that I would reject him, so yes. He IS forcing me to reject him even though I shouldn't be aware of it.
It's like God's playing a giant game of The Sims.
LucasI3434 8 months ago
@LucasI3434 But since you freely reject him, you are therefore convinced that this is all bullshit. You're not looking up at God screaming "Why me? Why are you casting me into Hell?". You don't believe in Hell, you don't believe in God. You are home-bound for hell, because that's home to all who just want to be their own God.
This is a useless debate.
ThomasintheMind 8 months ago
If however your heart was for God and you loved him, but still he sent you to hell, God would be considered unjust.
ThomasintheMind 8 months ago
@MrYoussef001 Thank you. I was Lutheran for 16 years. I HAD to know my Bible. ;) Plus I've read it three times cover to cover.
A thorough understanding of the Bible is one of the major reasons why I left Christianity.
LucasI3434 8 months ago
lol, ur funny....thing is, i won't try to answer.......Good luck finding the answer, because i knew the answers myself.....well, after years of searching, but still got the answer myself.....
XfaCTor94 8 months ago
@XfaCTor94 Then please do share what that answer is. That's the point of this video; I want to hear the opinions of others.
So, if you won't share your answer, then kindly go away.
LucasI3434 8 months ago
Further, the Bible explicitly tells us that we SHOULD tell the entire world about Jesus. Telling people about Jesus allows people the FREE WILL to choose or reject God. In my humble opinion, if I was you, I would be less concerned with the fate of the people who have never heard of Jesus, and more concerned with the people who HAVE heard, but have REJECTED Him...of course, I'm talking about you here. :)
SongOfSiren22 9 months ago
@SongOfSiren22 I tend to worry about others instead of myself. Besides, I tend not to worry about Atheists and the non-religious. We have our own reasons to reject not ONLY your god but every other god ever created mankind. You see, we're not at all that different. I just believe in one less god than you do.
One quick question though. If God doesn't want to send people to hell, then why does he? It's not like there's this "How to be God" manual with rules he has to follow no matter what.
LucasI3434 9 months ago
I like your video. I think it's articulate and argued well. You pose very good questions. If God saved all the people that have never heard the Word, the best thing the Christian church could do is to keep quiet so that no one has the chance to reject the idea...After all, God doesn't want people to go to hell and made that fully known when he sent his son, Jesus, to die for EVERY single person.
SongOfSiren22 9 months ago
Romans ch 1 or 2 covers that, in that they will be judged by what they knew,
just like when indians worshiped totem poles, there where prolly some rebelious indians up on a hill praying to God saying their tribesmen are nuts & that he maybe wasnt sure who God was but that he wasnt that totum pole !
as for missionaries, well they are out to reach out to the totem polers & let the guy on the hill know who the God he was seaking is, not that complicated if you knew the word
ncwdane 9 months ago
@ncwdane You didn't answer the second half. Why jeopardize the guaranteed salvation of the ones who didn't know of God?
LucasI3434 9 months ago
@LucasI3434 Well, it's not that I didnt answer it, But I will explain it to you...
If someone is in the category of the above said scenario also explained in Early Romans Chapters,
they are ready to believe, & Much like the Citizens of "Patmos" I believe it was(spell chk),
Those citizens Had an open heart to believe & Apostle Paul proselytized them where they were at spiritually
using the "unknown God" statue or plaque they had to explain things to them & they believed :-)
ncwdane 9 months ago
@ncwdane That STILL doesn't answer the question. Let me put it this way:
When one preaches the Gospel, no matter who does it, or how it is done, the people whom you are explaining it to, may still reject this new religion in lieu of their current religion whatever the circumstances or their reasoning may be. So I ask again. Why run the risk?
LucasI3434 9 months ago
@LucasI3434 I donjht see how you8 cant see that your questions been answered
But it's Kinda like telling someone their House is on Fire & to get out,
maybe they wont believe you but at least you'll increase their chances of maybe smelling the smoke on time cause you increase awarness, in Lue of leaveing it all up to them & them alone to feel the heat or smell the Smoke & get out all on their own.
ncwdane 9 months ago
@ncwdane So in summation, your god condemns people just because they haven't heard of Jesus. Fantastic. That makes him all the more likable.
In your analogy this time, you THINK his house is on fire, just as he thinks that yours is on fire. No ground is gained either way regardless.
LucasI3434 9 months ago
@LucasI3434 Hello.... Earth to Lucas, Earth to Lucas,
do you have a copy ???y responses I have made it clear on more than one response that GOD has made provisions for those who havent Directly Heard the Gospel 1st Hand
no wonder your opinions are so far off !
God manefest HIMSELF as a Man & took punishment on the cross for you,
& you shall NOT escape paying for your own sin if you reject such a Great of salvation,
Look to the Cross & pain he took & say he doesnt care ??? thats dumb
ncwdane 9 months ago
@ncwdane No they most certainly have NOT made anything clear.
The analogy you use asserts that the person inside the fire, would somehow figure it out on their own, but their chances would be higher if someone else told them. In REALITY though, your analogy holds as much water as a pasta strainer. Nobody in the past 2000 years has, or will magically know Jesus out of nothing. This is where the discrepancy lies.
Answer yes or no. Nothing more. Does god condemn those who have never heard of Jesus?
LucasI3434 9 months ago
@LucasI3434 14 ROMANS 2;14=16(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
ncwdane 9 months ago
@ncwdane I'm sorry do you not comprehend what "nothing more" means? Yes or no. NOTHING MORE. Two to three letters is all that need be said.
LucasI3434 9 months ago
@LucasI3434 A yes or no answer could be missleading,
I Let god speak for himself regarding the Matter
if that aint good enough for ya
I doint know what to tell ya, other than, Gods judgement on you will be just & true
& you will agree, & You do know tha Gospel & you will be accountable for it,
I think it;s safe to say from what gods written above, your arguement doesnt hold water,
& Gods Got it covered, so dont be a fool & stop rejecting Gods love for you & his great salvation
ncwdane 9 months ago
@ncwdane How the FUCK could yes or no be "misleading"? It's a very simple question, and requires a very simple answer. Either he condemns those who have never heard of Jesus for eternity due to their inherent sin, or he allows them salvation out of pity because they had no fucking clue what a Jebus is.
YES or NO. If you can't grasp an answer out of the bullshit that was your Romans post, that's your problem. Telling me to interpret the verse myself isn't getting us anywhere.
YES or NO.
LucasI3434 9 months ago
@LucasI3434 Don't tell me what to do !
yes or no w/o an explination could be missleading & just from your response,
That confirms my suspicion, quit being a Dick ,
it's rather Obvious as I said their is a provision for someone who hasn't directly heard !
did you read it, if that doesnt make things clear to you I cant Help you !
But NO it's not about pitty cause they havent heardm certain things are apparently already written on our hearts & they're still as it says, Judged VIA Jesus
ncwdane 9 months ago
@ncwdane So in summation your answer is no. Fina-fucking-ly I get a half decent answer that's relatively clear.
What suspicion? That's I'm intentionally "misleading" you? Bullshit. I'm frustrated that it took this long to get an answer that wasn't incoherent bullshit with extra shit.
So if they follow their own law it's what they're judged on... so answer the second set of questions. Simple answers.
What happened to Jesus being the only way into heaven?
What's the point of mission work?
Con't
LucasI3434 8 months ago
@ncwdane Yes or no isn't always a trap. Sometimes it could be, like the question you posed here, but this is nowhere in the same arena with my question. Both questions assume something; yours assumes that I molest children, mine assumes that God sends people to hell. This is where the questions differ dramatically. My assumption is correct, whereas yours is complete unevidentiary bullshit. My question is fair, yours isn't. You would do well to learn the difference.
LucasI3434 8 months ago
@LucasI3434 your arguments w/ God, I posted His explination~ when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges ppls secrets through Jesus Christ.
ncwdane 8 months ago
@ncwdane Answer my other two questions. You can repost your Biblical BS all you want; it isn't going to change anything, namely because it's the same verse over and over again.
LucasI3434 8 months ago
@LucasI3434 Ah, but they do Have a clue, & as I said their is a provision for that,(the verse I posted explains that) answering YES or No is a trap,
let me ask you a yes or no question; 1st
do you have an Orgasm everytime you molest underage children ??? Yes or No
common now, just yes or no, whats so hard about that
ncwdane 9 months ago
@LucasI3434 not the best of analogies, just knowing of Jesus is not enough to save we need to put our faith in him,
he has commanded us to make disciples of all nations, it doesn't matter how many people I save when i go sharing, even if i save one it would be for the glory of God
God works through us, we are the one's that are there to make a difference,
jonnjoe2 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
It is true that all cant be saved, we are sinful by nature and are separated from God,
jonnjoe2 9 months ago
@jonnjoe2 So your god condemns people simply because they've never heard of Jesus and some rib woman ate from a magic tree even though she didn't know any better? Wow. How merciful of God.
LucasI3434 9 months ago
@LucasI3434 We were created to have fellowship with God, when Eve ate the Fruit we were separated, by accepting Jesus in to our lives, our relationship is bridged, those without that relationship will be condemned
jonnjoe2 9 months ago
@jonnjoe2 So your answer is that God condemns people, even for ignorance of him? Again, I say "How merciful".
LucasI3434 9 months ago
God's Love is undeserved, we should be condemned due to our sinful nature.
Ephesian -8For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -9 not by works, so that no one can boast. NIV
an analogy of grace, say you hook me in the face, you'd expect me to hit you back right?
instead i get up and give $100. Did you do to deserve to get that money?
i'd like to thank you for challenging me in my walk with Christ, it has strengthened me
jonnjoe2 9 months ago
@jonnjoe2 I hardly think the "hook to the face" analogy is equal in regards to the whole Garden of Eden incident.
Eve disobeyed God, that's it. There was no harm done, except for the fact that God blew this thing waaayyy out of proportion like the drama queen he is and decided to punish all of humanity for it, even though Eve had no prior knowledge as to what good and evil were, so she didn't know disobedience was "evil".
The god in YOUR mind is a complete and utter dick.
LucasI3434 9 months ago
@jonnjoe2 I'd like to thank you for proving how ridiculous and petty your religion is. It has strengthened me.
LucasI3434 9 months ago
@LucasI3434 Come on thats not fair, she was warned not to eat the fruit from the forbidden magic tree of mystery, she would have been fine if she hadn't listened to that damned talking snake, which thinking about it, suggests she had already eaten some mushrooms of the magic variety, greedy bitch.
redjove2000 9 months ago
@LucasI3434 Lucas, You have heard
& as I said before, in Romans it has a Clause for those w/ proper faith who havent heard,
but you have, & many who havent and many who have are condemend already,
you have a chance still, dont worry about someone you think doesnt & maybe does,
your gonna feel foolish if they did according to there knopwledge get into heaven & you according to your knowledge don't cause you made excuses you didnt cause they might not, silly boy
ncwdane 9 months ago
they can come to the father when there in heaven instead, Its my oppinion but i still remember the parable in luke 8 i think. Besides the gospel just gives people no excuse, you've got conciouse without god, so they dont have a garanteed chance, just if they do right, so think of people who have no morals.
majinvi74 9 months ago
@majinvi74 You didn't exactly answer the questions posed here.
LucasI3434 9 months ago
Okay... seriously. The pixels of the very beginning of the intro are bigger than fucking CATS. That's one of the reasons I re-uploaded it to begin with! DAMN YOU YOUTUBE!!
LucasI3434 9 months ago