I actually have a very low opinion of many private schools (Elementary-High School). My first teaching job was at the Redland Christian Academy down near Homestead, FL. Only reason I went there first was because many private schools there did not require a state teacher's certificate and mostly hired people fresh from the universities...some teachers there didn't even have BA degrees! What you say about the FCAT is very true...the private schools represent something of an unknown quantity.
California is broke! You shouldn't be surprised by their lack of road signs and quality education. I escaped that God forsaken place. They will fall into the ocean financially.
Florida may be screwed up.But if all goes well we will be taking our first step at dismantaling the compulsery education system here in our state with a universal voucher program.Ya i know,another program,But this would take 85%of what it woudl have cost to educate a child and give it to the parnts to spend on prvte school.Hopefully prvt schools will spring up and compete and we can be free from the socialist school system forever.
"I dont trust the Gov.. to do anything but raise my kids" pth
Public School's do not even teach, and the teachers are setting the students up for failure by giving them more and more homework creating left brain prisoners.
Moreover, I first worked in the private school because I was waiting on the state to send me my certification. That's right, many private schools are filled with inexperienced (or incompetent) teachers without state certifications. I am much more comfortable sending my kids to public schools...where at least I know what kind of education they are actually receiving.
But try to get the public to hear this. At least the public schools not only have standards, but they have standardized standards.
So, yes, there are hideously bad union-mob teachers out there who use social and psychological coercion to get their way and avoid having to actually do their jobs, but the fault lies in the cowards who will not remove these teachers, and the rat-bag union bosses who protect them.
I was a teacher in Miami-Dade for 5 years (1 year in a private school and 4 years in the public system). Your question about why private schools aren't made to prove their quality through FCATs, as the publics do, is a very good one. The private school I worked at (Redland Christian Academy) was populated mostly by kids kicked out of the public system. The assumption is that if you pay more for something, it is necessarily better (no proof needed).
Public Schools never taught me crap, but ZERO--nothing, nada, nothing. Everything I've learned was self-taught, or learned from someone else without assistance from a classroom.
Teacher "X" teaches 5 classes. He teaches 3 Algebra classes, 1 Advanced Algebra class, and 1 remedial class. His first four classes are okay, but his last class is utter chaos!
Why?
Is it because the class has 43 students instead of 35?
Or maybe because the majority of the students don't speak English?
Could it be that it's late in the day and the kids are tired?
Or maybe, just maybe, the kids are DOWN-RIGHT LAZY?
Stop blaming the hard-working, dedicated teachers!
The purpose of K-12 education is not to create good citizens, or created good people, or to develop the skills needed to live a fulfilling life. Nope...the purpose of education is to create OBEDIENT WORKERS and SOLDIERS. They want people to be just smart enough to push the paper and operate the machines, but not smart enough to change the status quo - or even realize that anything needs to be changed. In this respect, public K-12 education is better than ever.
This is very interesting, on a related topic stopzenith(com) further expands on the idea that a small group of corrupt men control what we think and even how we feel. There you can join and post on the forum which has launched some interesting topics.
You'd think so, but, actually, I'm convinced a donkey could get admitted to Duke (or any elite ivy-league school) if it carried a hispanic last name, and had reasonable high school stats. It's humiliating, but true.
good for the university because they know he or she will flunk out anyway so they could suck more money and blood out of them before they graduate(if they are lucky enough to). the word exploitation is one of the words I learned first I stepped in to college.
Well, have you looked at the test itself? The actual tests from prior years are online for everyone to look at -- I don't think there can be much question that they're very fair and objective. Do a google search, and have a look at them.
I mean, yes, they are multiple choice questions, but that means that at least there's an answer that you must be given credit for if you bubble in the "right" answer, regardless of what family you're from, or your race, gender, or any of that other stuff.
Other methods beside scan-tron are wide-open giant hangar doors for demographic bias and other immature, petty horse-shit like that. With "ever-so-wonderful" essay tests, they can play all sorts of games with your grade, depending on if they like your style of handwriting, if your last name is some ethnicity they dislike, or if you're a perfect blonde and blue specimen of Aryan perfection.
So let's clear our heads on this matter of standardized testing, because standardization is critical.
I respect your insistence upon empirical evidence for the success of private schools. However, my question is are you a fan of the public school system? Are you a capitalist, socialist, or what? The idea behind school vouchers is that it empowers parents, promotes competition, gives choice, and forces teacher to be innovative and perform well.
I am a fan of anything that works, when it works, and I strongly believe in having no partisan loyalty to any one approach or party platform, in pursuit of that goal.
So, to answer your question, I am in favor of any school system that works. And since a "system" is usually a logical conjunction of many sub-systems, if the overall system is observed to not work, then I believe it should be conceptually broken up into sub-systems, until we find one that actually DOES work...
...until we find one that actually DOES work, and focus on what is going right THERE, cultivate THAT, and promote THAT, rather than rashly throwing it out, along with everything else that isn't working.
So, for example, let's say we have a public school district that is doing things right. Or, in a worse scenario, let's say we have just one school that's doing things right, under a school principal who's get his/her head on straight. Then we should preserving and cultivating that oasis.
PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION is not notorious for its success. On the contrary, School vouchers have been in the table for 30 plus years. We are not talking about a radical new experiment here.
I really don't get how a common sense approach to the problem of empowering parents is seen in such a negative light.
But when you say "PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION", that's lumping ALL public schools together. And there are some that have not only been doing things right, but doing things outstandingly well.
I will grant you that there are a lot of schools -- and, by "schools", of course we mean the employees of those schools -- who are just plain horrible. And there are also awful administrators who run things.
So, since things very often DO run well, I don't agree that the problem is "public schools" per se.
In other words, I'm not jumping on some "lynch all public schools" bandwagon, because the problem is corrupt people and practices within that industry, not the industry in its entirety.
On the other hand, what I think really DOES need to be dragged out into the light and CONDEMNED is the COLLEGE industry, which happens AFTER public school. Now THAT is an 800-pound gorilla crossed with a sacred cow, if ever there was one!
Yeah, that's true. But at least you've eliminated the problem of grading validity -- is the grading honest -- and gotten down to the more worthwhile question of content validity: are the questions themselves fair assessments of important knowledge, AND are the questions testing for only what was taught in the class, and not other extraneous, unfair things, such as special clique knowledge about the proper length of a polo club and prissy shit like that.
I want the public school system to die a slow and agonizing painful death. Getting a public education is not about learning , it is about sorting out the bad kids. There isn't really any really discussion of the subject matter being taught, just lecture following by memorizing a bunch of facts for a test. Same goes with the sciences, not really talk how Newton's laws are derived and what approach Newton applied to formulate his equations .... we just memorize his equations.
Study the writings of John Taylor Gatto, John Holt and Alfie Kohn.
Public Comulsory schools are desigend to dumb down people. If you want your children to have a good education look into unschooling and Sudbury type schools.
...are not , that private school would have to closed. Whereas with a public school, because of the teachers union, even though the public school might be failing the kids, it will not closed because our public education is a monopoly and will not improve the quality of its education because it doesn't have to compete with anyone other than private schools and there are only a small percentage of american school children attending private schools.
I would like to someday have an opportunity to really do a full financial tracing of just where well-established private schools get their funding... somehow I have a feeling that they might actually be receiving public funds, but through some kind of "private" corporate foundation, which itself operates heavily on government grants and subsidies.
...But I could be wrong about that. It just seems to jibe with a lot of my experience.
I think private schools and homeschools are generally better than public schools because 9 times out of ten the faculty or your private tutor in case you are homeschool can pinpoint the problems the child is having with a subject or private schools create school curriculum that is very restricted to there particular interest like learning to build computers and program or just honing your musical skills. Besides , the education at a private school has to be of high quality because if they ...
School should be run in the same fashion it was years ago, along with some business practices of past (which needs to come back to the business world!) The bottom 10% gets booted out, and for schools, held back (and when needed, given a different teacher) until they master the skills. Teachers don't have control of the classrooms anymore, and they need that authority restored. I agree that reconceptualization to be exclusive is key...and those who need extra help should get it too.
I'm not sure that the bottom 10% should get booted out, so long as they're showing proper behavior and are still trying... I've seen extreme remediation solve a huge number of these kinds of problems, largely because some students were not able to acquire core skills early on, and that early failure snowballed into more failure later on.
However, the students who are being demonic monsters and the parents who back them up? Suspend, then expel. Let the police and prisons teach them instead.
Like everything else in our world today, you have to be friends with the right people who pull the strings... there is no "will of the people". Where the "people" are not obedient sheep, they're completely impotent and completely ignored.
Democracy is bad comedy, a cheap parlour trick. Nepotism is everything.
continue.... In fact, homeschooling is having a very sharp rise in numbers. Many parents are realizing that their children aren't learning what they should be, and there is a safety factor too. My kids are in K & 3rd. Last year a girl was chased into the bathroom by a boy who was threatening to rape her...in SECOND grade! I wasn't about to send my daughter there. The system needs serious work before I will send my children back. Also, colleges are recruiting HSers, they have higher scores! WSY?
Well, thanks for posting your comments... I will say that I do agree that public schools today are too often hellholes ruled by administrative political correctness; a major part of that, I think, is the requirement that schools have to bend over backwards to keep kids in school, which I think is exactly the wrong attitude to have.
...Schools should be completely reconceptualized to be exclusive, not inclusive. They should be hard to get into, and have the right to expel as needed.
You could still publicly fund them so that they're still available to the public, BUT the big caveat would be that they are now stringent with their admissions and who they allow to stay.
Most people don't value what is easy to get, because they're too cocky and want a challenge. The average person is a total pain-in-the-ass, motivated by reverse psychology and covetous envy. If you tell them that they probably can't go to school, they'll want it more than ever, and stop causing trouble.
So I guess I'm saying that, in essence, you're seeing all these problems in school largely because they're not exclusive and elusive.
...Also, studies have shown that students of year-round schools perform significantly better on assessment tests as well. So if you had public schools that were exclusive and year-round, all these monstrous kids and their parents would either have to shape up or ship out... immediately. But, either way, what would be left in your school would be good kids.
Unfortunately, even in the working world skill means little. If you can bulls^it the boss, you've got the job, whether you can actually produce results or not. The school system isn't helping this. A high school diploma is just about worthless nowadays. I used to work with some ladies from Croatia & Bosnia and convos with them were enlightening. Their high school education was the equivalent of us having 2 years of college. Sad really...our kids deserve better.
Well, then, the thing for people of merit to do in a system that runs on childishness, is to leave the system, go where they're shown true appreciation, and build that system up instead.
When good people finally release that the only way to defeat evil is to withdraw their support of it (rather than try to "motivate" it or "love it" into goodness), then the world will be a better place.
continue again... I am not convinced that private school is "better" than public, however I am convinced that in the public schools, too often they teach the test, else the teachers could lose their jobs. This does no good for the students as they don't master anything...however, their scores look good. It's a complete farce in many cases. I just want my children to have a quality education and right now the public system is not offering that. Continue again....
I don't understand this criticism of "teaching the test". What else would you teach to?
Life is nothing but a constant series of tests... every moment of your life, you're being tested; even when you parallel park in front downtown or have to deal with a petty lunatic coworker or brush your teeth... every single thing is calls upon demonstrating that a skill has been mastered.
...And that's a test! So I fail to see how "teaching to the test" is bad, when tests are a huge part of life!
The problem is that they are teaching only to the state standards, and don't worry about how well the actual concepts are mastered. If they can pass the test, good enough. They also teach all styles of learning, in a "skim over" fashion, which just confused my son. The state "standards" are a big problem. Such as, in 2nd grade, ds didn't write stories, this year they shove it down their throats. Then 4th g is a "breather" and 5th a rat race. This is just too much and too confusing for elementary
I have to agree that vouchers should not be given just to attend a private school. However, what I do think would work is to have the "vouchers" attached to the children. Such as, we live in X school district. As it is now, they have to attend that school to be in Public school. Now, the voucher would allow us to send our children to Y school a county over, they are safer and have a more fitting curriculum to my children's learning style. Running out of space, will continue...
If you mean RadicalforLiberty's, for some reason my responses to his post somehow didn't get posted after his... they got posted all in a clump on a separate page.
I did approve all his comments... but for some reason, my responses didn't post interweavingly(sp?) with his.
There is a glitch or conflict between Youtube and modzilla fire fox browser, It keeps crashing everytime i visit youtube, also my bulletines are not going through,,,,guess I will have to use Internet Explora for youtube.
The primary purpose of government schools is not to educate children, but to create obediant citizens. Straight from the horses mouth. No wonder why you see illiterate elementary school graduates in this country.
And considering this "easy access to quality education", listen to what Justice H. Walter Croskey has to say on public education, "A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation.." on his somewhat recent california ruling, "parents do not have a constitutional right to homeschool their children.."
Well, that man sounds like a fascist lunatic, quite frankly. It never ceases to horrify me just how many little tin god judges there are out there who arbitrarily declare into existence what is "constitutional".
...If there's any constitutional clause that assigns who has the right to educate children, I'd love to see that, because the very notion is deranged.
The "excellent job" Florida is doing educating children probably has a whole lot to do with their educational policies, don't ya think? Subjecting the state monopoly to competition has likely improved the quality of the service, which is why, according to you, Florda is outperforming most other states.
Let's be very thorough here, and make no mistakes: Almost certainly, the one-sided performance accountability system that is Florida's voucher system HAS perhaps frightened it out of monopolistic complacency... there are most certainly corrupt and underperforming schools which have been shut down because of it.
...However, this is not to say that the one-sided system has had any effect whatsoever on any improvement on PRIVATE school educations, because they're not held FCAT accountable.
The reason why the private service model is considered supreme to the state service model boils down to very simple economics, market monopolies do not have the necessary incentive to provide a quality and efficient service and are not subject to fair market price. Voluntary service models outperform monopolistic service models because voluntary service models are subject to competition and consumer demand. Market monopolies are not.
You have, of course, a supremely powerful point there, and I won't attempt to argue against it for that reason. I concede completely.
...What I will argue, however, is a tangential thing: how much of what we have touted to us as paragons of "private enterprise" -- such as certain omnipresent "private" corporations -- are really not private at all, and really subsist on the nepotistic fraternity dole of the highest levels of government protection and subsidization?
You claim that there is an implicit notion that private schools outperform public schools, but you fail to ask, "why is this the case?", or, "Could these popular notions and preferances be represented in a realistic interpretation of facts?" That is what a "logic junkie" would do, but you clearly did not.
Well, just because I didn't overtly examine my rationales from statement to statement, doesn't mean I don't have an underlying logic to them... I don't think I'm just sitting here rolling dice or something.
So, since you bring it up, yes: the common notion that "private" equals "better" could be based in fact. However, it could also be based in the logical fallacy that tends to naively equate exclusivity, scarcity, and pompous posturing with superior quality.
So, yes, as I see it, those are two divergent explanations for the common conceptualization of the automatic superiority of private education, or private anything, for that matter.
Mind you, public is not necessarily better, either. I'm saying, however, that only better is better, and benchmarks are only as valid as the last time they were really verified through uncompromising scrutiny.
"There is a concerted effort to destroy easy access to quality educaton in this country." A minute later you state outright how shitty your public school education was. What "easy access" to "quality education" could you possibly be referring to other than that within the state whos policies you are criticizing but quality you are maintaining to be "excellent"? You ought to stop arguing with your own self and instead shoot for some degree of logical consistency in your videos.
I'm starting to see your point. I guess that does look like a contradiction; you're right. But did I really say that Florida's education system is amazing? I can't remember the precise train of thought I was on from moment to moment, in this video.
I will say this, because it's what I think: I think that, when I compare my experiences in private education with my experiences in public education, the latter has actually been much, much worse in quality.
You said so many contradictory stupid things in this video that I have to post several comments to appropriately respond. First of all, "Flordia's education system... does an amazing job. It is amazingly efficient." If you are going to dedicate ten minutes of video time criticizing Florida's educational policies, then perhaps this is not the best way to begin your critique. Some people might be of the persuasion that policies which do an "excellent job" in educating children should be pursued.
I live in FLA and know kids who attended private schools through 8th grade but then chose to go to public high schools for various reasons (larger social environment, sports, etc). Well, they showed up thinking they would coast b/c of their private school foundation, but wound up getting their asses kicked on the FCAT and then transfered back to the private school so they could have a normal graduation.
Private schools not being held accountable damages the integrity of the system.
Wow; I hadn't heard that before from anyone. So, you're someone who testifies that the private school education doesn't prepare them for the FCAT, yet the entire voucher system is, in fact, operating on the unproven premise that the private school education is, in fact, automatically a better education.
Well, in all honesty, isn't something like math, math wherever you go? That is to say, perhaps people don't value public education precisely because it's free.
...If you used reverse psychology and made it very difficult to get into a public school, I have a very good feeling that you could teach exactly the same way in the classrooms, but the students and families would suddenly respect it more, because most people tend to want what they fear they can't have.
"isn't something like math, math wherever you go?"
No. You wouldn't believe the mess they make out of something so basic as math. If you knew what they are teaching in the grade schools today, you'd pull your hair out and run screaming off a cliff.
So imagine the mess they're making of more complex subjects, like history.
Good point, and I concur. But I've been in private schools, too, both pre-college and college, and I can tell you from actual experience that the private school education is most certainly not "automatically superior" to what you will find in public school.
I grant you, public school education is certainly rife with cognitive nightmare but, on the topic of standardized tests like the FCAT, the only way to ensure quality is to require ALL schools to give them... including the private schools.
Yes, yes and yes. But you missed one thing. Notice all the religious folk are pro-voucher? It's because so many private schools are religious and do not have the same standards for freedom of religion as public schools. They gotta get them while they're young, ya know. ;) (I need a special "Palin" wink)
I'm against vouchers because it brings in so much government control.
There isn't a "conspiracy" - rather, there is an all-out assault on the prison system for kids known as public schools. The sooner all public schools close down, the better.
i agree with what your saying. in jersy. i fund it unfair that the public school gets the credit all residents, even the ones like me in private school.
and even now my tow is beng hardheaded and not letting me into a school they kicked me out of on false claims. supposedly they were short half a kid.... however that happened.
You can also look at this from another point of view. The schools are so bad the kids who go there need to be tested to make sure they still work. Or still another, that the kids are learning exactly what 'they' want them to learn.
When the state gets involved in education it can cause a conflict of interest. If your not teaching them what your supposed to think/learn then it can cut off funding. Just like when an advertiser pulls its ads off a program because it doesn't like the content.
Oh, I agree completely... the teachers' unions can definitely tend to be a force for evil in education... However, let's not kid ourselves about the fact that unions may often be necessary at times.
Because of this tendency for corruption, I do wholeheartedly support the importance of standardized testing... however, I maintain that private schools should not be exempt from it, too, so long as they want to receive public voucher money for potential voucher students.
Another thing that may be destroying our education system is that some schools have allowed the implementation of "Ebonics" to educate students. This is how the torch gets passed on. I really believe that Ebonics was primarily used to separate themselves (blacks) from white people. What kills me the most is that people in general, who live under this culture of Ebonics, seem to rebel against someone who is formal, or even just normal, and then perceive it as "acting white"
Your conclusions are perfect. In many ways I can see the positives to voucher systems, but all schools, private and public, must be graded by the same standards to ensure parents know what quality of school they are sending their child to. But I also go one step further; no religious school should be allowed to accept government money through vouchers. Wanna teach humans and dinosaurs lived together in piece? Do it without public money.
Oh, absolutely. Most private schools are religious schools... and if private schools want to receive public voucher money, they should be required to submit to the same exact performance standards as public schools are.
...If they don't want to submit to the testing, fine. But that means they can't possibly qualify for voucher money in any way.
Not familiar with the education system here in the state of Washington, but I saw some crazy "new math" they were teaching because regular math is "too hard". Schools are a mixed lot. There were a few teachers for me that made the difference, but as whole, the system is still "classing' people(is that a word?), especially those who can afford good education. Studying for tests can be good, but teachers also "teach the test" and put limits on childrens achievements.
When I was in school we didnt have the FCAT until deep into high school. you used to still be able to be passed to the next grade if the teachers knew you werent stupid and didnt want to put up with you another year like in my case. now there's so many children repeating grades it is horrifying. I thought the idea was to give out as many high school diplomas as easily as possible as to mabye hopefully allow this monster pieces of crap to get a job and not kill us when they got out of school.
I was born in California, moved away as a baby to Florida and raised in FLA, spending summers in NY NJ PA tri state area , occasionally visiting NYC through the years. the roads are shitty up north compared to FL. anyway yeah I got kicked out of public school my junior year, I got my diploma through one of those reject schools all the criminals go to when they get expelled, and turned into somewhat of a criminal myself. no felony convictions though WOOT !
Home education is the best way to go. Education of the whole child,like the Finnish do.
reptilia5 3 weeks ago
The best education is when you teach yourself. Check Jacque Fresco.
GhostraceKillah 1 month ago 2
I actually have a very low opinion of many private schools (Elementary-High School). My first teaching job was at the Redland Christian Academy down near Homestead, FL. Only reason I went there first was because many private schools there did not require a state teacher's certificate and mostly hired people fresh from the universities...some teachers there didn't even have BA degrees! What you say about the FCAT is very true...the private schools represent something of an unknown quantity.
saintgauden 3 months ago
California is broke! You shouldn't be surprised by their lack of road signs and quality education. I escaped that God forsaken place. They will fall into the ocean financially.
trewells 7 months ago
Florida may be screwed up.But if all goes well we will be taking our first step at dismantaling the compulsery education system here in our state with a universal voucher program.Ya i know,another program,But this would take 85%of what it woudl have cost to educate a child and give it to the parnts to spend on prvte school.Hopefully prvt schools will spring up and compete and we can be free from the socialist school system forever.
"I dont trust the Gov.. to do anything but raise my kids" pth
Felhaven 11 months ago
Public School's do not even teach, and the teachers are setting the students up for failure by giving them more and more homework creating left brain prisoners.
EricSchwin22 1 year ago
Moreover, I first worked in the private school because I was waiting on the state to send me my certification. That's right, many private schools are filled with inexperienced (or incompetent) teachers without state certifications. I am much more comfortable sending my kids to public schools...where at least I know what kind of education they are actually receiving.
saintgauden 1 year ago
But try to get the public to hear this. At least the public schools not only have standards, but they have standardized standards.
So, yes, there are hideously bad union-mob teachers out there who use social and psychological coercion to get their way and avoid having to actually do their jobs, but the fault lies in the cowards who will not remove these teachers, and the rat-bag union bosses who protect them.
TheLogicJunkie 1 year ago
I was a teacher in Miami-Dade for 5 years (1 year in a private school and 4 years in the public system). Your question about why private schools aren't made to prove their quality through FCATs, as the publics do, is a very good one. The private school I worked at (Redland Christian Academy) was populated mostly by kids kicked out of the public system. The assumption is that if you pay more for something, it is necessarily better (no proof needed).
saintgauden 1 year ago
Yes, that's exactly it. The automatic assumption of superior quality is so incredibly destructive and dangerous -- not merely naive.
TheLogicJunkie 1 year ago
Public Schools never taught me crap, but ZERO--nothing, nada, nothing. Everything I've learned was self-taught, or learned from someone else without assistance from a classroom.
visionimagify 1 year ago
Teacher "X" teaches 5 classes. He teaches 3 Algebra classes, 1 Advanced Algebra class, and 1 remedial class. His first four classes are okay, but his last class is utter chaos!
Why?
Is it because the class has 43 students instead of 35?
Or maybe because the majority of the students don't speak English?
Could it be that it's late in the day and the kids are tired?
Or maybe, just maybe, the kids are DOWN-RIGHT LAZY?
Stop blaming the hard-working, dedicated teachers!
MsJanetWood 1 year ago
The purpose of K-12 education is not to create good citizens, or created good people, or to develop the skills needed to live a fulfilling life. Nope...the purpose of education is to create OBEDIENT WORKERS and SOLDIERS. They want people to be just smart enough to push the paper and operate the machines, but not smart enough to change the status quo - or even realize that anything needs to be changed. In this respect, public K-12 education is better than ever.
minitrueful 1 year ago
This is very interesting, on a related topic stopzenith(com) further expands on the idea that a small group of corrupt men control what we think and even how we feel. There you can join and post on the forum which has launched some interesting topics.
alismith73 1 year ago
You ARE pretty smart to have graduated from Duke University.
wjwildcat 1 year ago
You'd think so, but, actually, I'm convinced a donkey could get admitted to Duke (or any elite ivy-league school) if it carried a hispanic last name, and had reasonable high school stats. It's humiliating, but true.
TheLogicJunkie 1 year ago
@TheLogicJunkie
good for the university because they know he or she will flunk out anyway so they could suck more money and blood out of them before they graduate(if they are lucky enough to). the word exploitation is one of the words I learned first I stepped in to college.
wjwildcat 1 year ago
What law magically makes FCAT so accurate?
philnoll 2 years ago
Well, have you looked at the test itself? The actual tests from prior years are online for everyone to look at -- I don't think there can be much question that they're very fair and objective. Do a google search, and have a look at them.
I mean, yes, they are multiple choice questions, but that means that at least there's an answer that you must be given credit for if you bubble in the "right" answer, regardless of what family you're from, or your race, gender, or any of that other stuff.
TheLogicJunkie 2 years ago
Other methods beside scan-tron are wide-open giant hangar doors for demographic bias and other immature, petty horse-shit like that. With "ever-so-wonderful" essay tests, they can play all sorts of games with your grade, depending on if they like your style of handwriting, if your last name is some ethnicity they dislike, or if you're a perfect blonde and blue specimen of Aryan perfection.
So let's clear our heads on this matter of standardized testing, because standardization is critical.
TheLogicJunkie 2 years ago
Logical Junkie,
I respect your insistence upon empirical evidence for the success of private schools. However, my question is are you a fan of the public school system? Are you a capitalist, socialist, or what? The idea behind school vouchers is that it empowers parents, promotes competition, gives choice, and forces teacher to be innovative and perform well.
hypermonkey24 1 year ago
I am a fan of anything that works, when it works, and I strongly believe in having no partisan loyalty to any one approach or party platform, in pursuit of that goal.
So, to answer your question, I am in favor of any school system that works. And since a "system" is usually a logical conjunction of many sub-systems, if the overall system is observed to not work, then I believe it should be conceptually broken up into sub-systems, until we find one that actually DOES work...
TheLogicJunkie 1 year ago
...until we find one that actually DOES work, and focus on what is going right THERE, cultivate THAT, and promote THAT, rather than rashly throwing it out, along with everything else that isn't working.
So, for example, let's say we have a public school district that is doing things right. Or, in a worse scenario, let's say we have just one school that's doing things right, under a school principal who's get his/her head on straight. Then we should preserving and cultivating that oasis.
TheLogicJunkie 1 year ago
PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION is not notorious for its success. On the contrary, School vouchers have been in the table for 30 plus years. We are not talking about a radical new experiment here.
I really don't get how a common sense approach to the problem of empowering parents is seen in such a negative light.
hypermonkey24 1 year ago
But when you say "PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION", that's lumping ALL public schools together. And there are some that have not only been doing things right, but doing things outstandingly well.
I will grant you that there are a lot of schools -- and, by "schools", of course we mean the employees of those schools -- who are just plain horrible. And there are also awful administrators who run things.
So, since things very often DO run well, I don't agree that the problem is "public schools" per se.
TheLogicJunkie 1 year ago
In other words, I'm not jumping on some "lynch all public schools" bandwagon, because the problem is corrupt people and practices within that industry, not the industry in its entirety.
On the other hand, what I think really DOES need to be dragged out into the light and CONDEMNED is the COLLEGE industry, which happens AFTER public school. Now THAT is an 800-pound gorilla crossed with a sacred cow, if ever there was one!
TheLogicJunkie 1 year ago
Well multiple choice doesn't automatically make it unbiased, but it sure is better than the essay tests.
philnoll 2 years ago
Yeah, that's true. But at least you've eliminated the problem of grading validity -- is the grading honest -- and gotten down to the more worthwhile question of content validity: are the questions themselves fair assessments of important knowledge, AND are the questions testing for only what was taught in the class, and not other extraneous, unfair things, such as special clique knowledge about the proper length of a polo club and prissy shit like that.
TheLogicJunkie 2 years ago
3 feet? Ohhh, Polo. Yeah, I had no idea.
Good point.
philnoll 2 years ago
...Actually, I've just been informed that it's a polo MALLET, not a polo CLUB. We must be correct about these sorts of things, after all.
*rolls eyes*
TheLogicJunkie 2 years ago
Right right. That's just as bad as the golf stick, or the tennis paddle.
philnoll 2 years ago
I want the public school system to die a slow and agonizing painful death. Getting a public education is not about learning , it is about sorting out the bad kids. There isn't really any really discussion of the subject matter being taught, just lecture following by memorizing a bunch of facts for a test. Same goes with the sciences, not really talk how Newton's laws are derived and what approach Newton applied to formulate his equations .... we just memorize his equations.
Pentazoid111 2 years ago
Study the writings of John Taylor Gatto, John Holt and Alfie Kohn.
Public Comulsory schools are desigend to dumb down people. If you want your children to have a good education look into unschooling and Sudbury type schools.
Starhenge1 2 years ago
I read alfie kohn, too bad teachers and principals dont believe in what he says...
hbsegura 2 years ago
I find odd that people think that kids don't just guess the answers. Does anybody factor that in?
WolfNinjaLevi 3 years ago
...are not , that private school would have to closed. Whereas with a public school, because of the teachers union, even though the public school might be failing the kids, it will not closed because our public education is a monopoly and will not improve the quality of its education because it doesn't have to compete with anyone other than private schools and there are only a small percentage of american school children attending private schools.
suboreo 3 years ago
I would like to someday have an opportunity to really do a full financial tracing of just where well-established private schools get their funding... somehow I have a feeling that they might actually be receiving public funds, but through some kind of "private" corporate foundation, which itself operates heavily on government grants and subsidies.
...But I could be wrong about that. It just seems to jibe with a lot of my experience.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
I think private schools and homeschools are generally better than public schools because 9 times out of ten the faculty or your private tutor in case you are homeschool can pinpoint the problems the child is having with a subject or private schools create school curriculum that is very restricted to there particular interest like learning to build computers and program or just honing your musical skills. Besides , the education at a private school has to be of high quality because if they ...
suboreo 3 years ago 4
School should be run in the same fashion it was years ago, along with some business practices of past (which needs to come back to the business world!) The bottom 10% gets booted out, and for schools, held back (and when needed, given a different teacher) until they master the skills. Teachers don't have control of the classrooms anymore, and they need that authority restored. I agree that reconceptualization to be exclusive is key...and those who need extra help should get it too.
essentialmama 3 years ago
I'm not sure that the bottom 10% should get booted out, so long as they're showing proper behavior and are still trying... I've seen extreme remediation solve a huge number of these kinds of problems, largely because some students were not able to acquire core skills early on, and that early failure snowballed into more failure later on.
However, the students who are being demonic monsters and the parents who back them up? Suspend, then expel. Let the police and prisons teach them instead.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
Makes perfect sense to me....so how do we make it happen??
essentialmama 3 years ago
Like everything else in our world today, you have to be friends with the right people who pull the strings... there is no "will of the people". Where the "people" are not obedient sheep, they're completely impotent and completely ignored.
Democracy is bad comedy, a cheap parlour trick. Nepotism is everything.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
continue.... In fact, homeschooling is having a very sharp rise in numbers. Many parents are realizing that their children aren't learning what they should be, and there is a safety factor too. My kids are in K & 3rd. Last year a girl was chased into the bathroom by a boy who was threatening to rape her...in SECOND grade! I wasn't about to send my daughter there. The system needs serious work before I will send my children back. Also, colleges are recruiting HSers, they have higher scores! WSY?
essentialmama 3 years ago
Well, thanks for posting your comments... I will say that I do agree that public schools today are too often hellholes ruled by administrative political correctness; a major part of that, I think, is the requirement that schools have to bend over backwards to keep kids in school, which I think is exactly the wrong attitude to have.
...Schools should be completely reconceptualized to be exclusive, not inclusive. They should be hard to get into, and have the right to expel as needed.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
You could still publicly fund them so that they're still available to the public, BUT the big caveat would be that they are now stringent with their admissions and who they allow to stay.
Most people don't value what is easy to get, because they're too cocky and want a challenge. The average person is a total pain-in-the-ass, motivated by reverse psychology and covetous envy. If you tell them that they probably can't go to school, they'll want it more than ever, and stop causing trouble.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
So I guess I'm saying that, in essence, you're seeing all these problems in school largely because they're not exclusive and elusive.
...Also, studies have shown that students of year-round schools perform significantly better on assessment tests as well. So if you had public schools that were exclusive and year-round, all these monstrous kids and their parents would either have to shape up or ship out... immediately. But, either way, what would be left in your school would be good kids.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
Unfortunately, even in the working world skill means little. If you can bulls^it the boss, you've got the job, whether you can actually produce results or not. The school system isn't helping this. A high school diploma is just about worthless nowadays. I used to work with some ladies from Croatia & Bosnia and convos with them were enlightening. Their high school education was the equivalent of us having 2 years of college. Sad really...our kids deserve better.
essentialmama 3 years ago
Well, then, the thing for people of merit to do in a system that runs on childishness, is to leave the system, go where they're shown true appreciation, and build that system up instead.
When good people finally release that the only way to defeat evil is to withdraw their support of it (rather than try to "motivate" it or "love it" into goodness), then the world will be a better place.
Strategic apathy is an incredible tool.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
continue again... I am not convinced that private school is "better" than public, however I am convinced that in the public schools, too often they teach the test, else the teachers could lose their jobs. This does no good for the students as they don't master anything...however, their scores look good. It's a complete farce in many cases. I just want my children to have a quality education and right now the public system is not offering that. Continue again....
essentialmama 3 years ago
I don't understand this criticism of "teaching the test". What else would you teach to?
Life is nothing but a constant series of tests... every moment of your life, you're being tested; even when you parallel park in front downtown or have to deal with a petty lunatic coworker or brush your teeth... every single thing is calls upon demonstrating that a skill has been mastered.
...And that's a test! So I fail to see how "teaching to the test" is bad, when tests are a huge part of life!
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
The problem is that they are teaching only to the state standards, and don't worry about how well the actual concepts are mastered. If they can pass the test, good enough. They also teach all styles of learning, in a "skim over" fashion, which just confused my son. The state "standards" are a big problem. Such as, in 2nd grade, ds didn't write stories, this year they shove it down their throats. Then 4th g is a "breather" and 5th a rat race. This is just too much and too confusing for elementary
essentialmama 3 years ago
I have to agree that vouchers should not be given just to attend a private school. However, what I do think would work is to have the "vouchers" attached to the children. Such as, we live in X school district. As it is now, they have to attend that school to be in Public school. Now, the voucher would allow us to send our children to Y school a county over, they are safer and have a more fitting curriculum to my children's learning style. Running out of space, will continue...
essentialmama 3 years ago
I guess some people's views will never get posted?
Starhenge1 3 years ago
Whose?
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
If you mean RadicalforLiberty's, for some reason my responses to his post somehow didn't get posted after his... they got posted all in a clump on a separate page.
I did approve all his comments... but for some reason, my responses didn't post interweavingly(sp?) with his.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
There is a glitch or conflict between Youtube and modzilla fire fox browser, It keeps crashing everytime i visit youtube, also my bulletines are not going through,,,,guess I will have to use Internet Explora for youtube.
Starhenge1 3 years ago
The primary purpose of government schools is not to educate children, but to create obediant citizens. Straight from the horses mouth. No wonder why you see illiterate elementary school graduates in this country.
RadicalForLiberty 3 years ago 2
I just got home and got your message, and saw these waiting here. Now they're up, and I can go back and read them...
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
And considering this "easy access to quality education", listen to what Justice H. Walter Croskey has to say on public education, "A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation.." on his somewhat recent california ruling, "parents do not have a constitutional right to homeschool their children.."
RadicalForLiberty 3 years ago
Well, that man sounds like a fascist lunatic, quite frankly. It never ceases to horrify me just how many little tin god judges there are out there who arbitrarily declare into existence what is "constitutional".
...If there's any constitutional clause that assigns who has the right to educate children, I'd love to see that, because the very notion is deranged.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
The "excellent job" Florida is doing educating children probably has a whole lot to do with their educational policies, don't ya think? Subjecting the state monopoly to competition has likely improved the quality of the service, which is why, according to you, Florda is outperforming most other states.
RadicalForLiberty 3 years ago
Let's be very thorough here, and make no mistakes: Almost certainly, the one-sided performance accountability system that is Florida's voucher system HAS perhaps frightened it out of monopolistic complacency... there are most certainly corrupt and underperforming schools which have been shut down because of it.
...However, this is not to say that the one-sided system has had any effect whatsoever on any improvement on PRIVATE school educations, because they're not held FCAT accountable.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
The reason why the private service model is considered supreme to the state service model boils down to very simple economics, market monopolies do not have the necessary incentive to provide a quality and efficient service and are not subject to fair market price. Voluntary service models outperform monopolistic service models because voluntary service models are subject to competition and consumer demand. Market monopolies are not.
RadicalForLiberty 3 years ago
You have, of course, a supremely powerful point there, and I won't attempt to argue against it for that reason. I concede completely.
...What I will argue, however, is a tangential thing: how much of what we have touted to us as paragons of "private enterprise" -- such as certain omnipresent "private" corporations -- are really not private at all, and really subsist on the nepotistic fraternity dole of the highest levels of government protection and subsidization?
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
You claim that there is an implicit notion that private schools outperform public schools, but you fail to ask, "why is this the case?", or, "Could these popular notions and preferances be represented in a realistic interpretation of facts?" That is what a "logic junkie" would do, but you clearly did not.
RadicalForLiberty 3 years ago
Well, just because I didn't overtly examine my rationales from statement to statement, doesn't mean I don't have an underlying logic to them... I don't think I'm just sitting here rolling dice or something.
So, since you bring it up, yes: the common notion that "private" equals "better" could be based in fact. However, it could also be based in the logical fallacy that tends to naively equate exclusivity, scarcity, and pompous posturing with superior quality.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
So, yes, as I see it, those are two divergent explanations for the common conceptualization of the automatic superiority of private education, or private anything, for that matter.
Mind you, public is not necessarily better, either. I'm saying, however, that only better is better, and benchmarks are only as valid as the last time they were really verified through uncompromising scrutiny.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
"There is a concerted effort to destroy easy access to quality educaton in this country." A minute later you state outright how shitty your public school education was. What "easy access" to "quality education" could you possibly be referring to other than that within the state whos policies you are criticizing but quality you are maintaining to be "excellent"? You ought to stop arguing with your own self and instead shoot for some degree of logical consistency in your videos.
RadicalForLiberty 3 years ago
I'm starting to see your point. I guess that does look like a contradiction; you're right. But did I really say that Florida's education system is amazing? I can't remember the precise train of thought I was on from moment to moment, in this video.
I will say this, because it's what I think: I think that, when I compare my experiences in private education with my experiences in public education, the latter has actually been much, much worse in quality.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
You said so many contradictory stupid things in this video that I have to post several comments to appropriately respond. First of all, "Flordia's education system... does an amazing job. It is amazingly efficient." If you are going to dedicate ten minutes of video time criticizing Florida's educational policies, then perhaps this is not the best way to begin your critique. Some people might be of the persuasion that policies which do an "excellent job" in educating children should be pursued.
RadicalForLiberty 3 years ago
Did I say that Florida's education system does an amazing job?
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
I live in FLA and know kids who attended private schools through 8th grade but then chose to go to public high schools for various reasons (larger social environment, sports, etc). Well, they showed up thinking they would coast b/c of their private school foundation, but wound up getting their asses kicked on the FCAT and then transfered back to the private school so they could have a normal graduation.
Private schools not being held accountable damages the integrity of the system.
Logicist42 3 years ago
Wow; I hadn't heard that before from anyone. So, you're someone who testifies that the private school education doesn't prepare them for the FCAT, yet the entire voucher system is, in fact, operating on the unproven premise that the private school education is, in fact, automatically a better education.
Thanks for posting that.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
Right now this is almost no access to quality primary education in this country. The public schools are a joke. They need to be abolished.
Beethovens7th 3 years ago 11
Well, in all honesty, isn't something like math, math wherever you go? That is to say, perhaps people don't value public education precisely because it's free.
...If you used reverse psychology and made it very difficult to get into a public school, I have a very good feeling that you could teach exactly the same way in the classrooms, but the students and families would suddenly respect it more, because most people tend to want what they fear they can't have.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
"isn't something like math, math wherever you go?"
No. You wouldn't believe the mess they make out of something so basic as math. If you knew what they are teaching in the grade schools today, you'd pull your hair out and run screaming off a cliff.
So imagine the mess they're making of more complex subjects, like history.
MrCropper 3 years ago 2
Good point, and I concur. But I've been in private schools, too, both pre-college and college, and I can tell you from actual experience that the private school education is most certainly not "automatically superior" to what you will find in public school.
I grant you, public school education is certainly rife with cognitive nightmare but, on the topic of standardized tests like the FCAT, the only way to ensure quality is to require ALL schools to give them... including the private schools.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
@Beethovens7th AGREED!!!!!!!!!
k5lta 1 month ago in playlist More videos from TheLogicJunkie
Yes, yes and yes. But you missed one thing. Notice all the religious folk are pro-voucher? It's because so many private schools are religious and do not have the same standards for freedom of religion as public schools. They gotta get them while they're young, ya know. ;) (I need a special "Palin" wink)
hurricanerae 3 years ago
Yeah, you're right. They always seem to want to work the religious angle in there somehow and, all too often, private school = religious school.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
You should watch MrCropper's just posted video on unobtainable ideals.
grantsinmypants2 3 years ago 4
Okay, I will.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
I'm against vouchers because it brings in so much government control.
There isn't a "conspiracy" - rather, there is an all-out assault on the prison system for kids known as public schools. The sooner all public schools close down, the better.
MrCropper 3 years ago 2
someone get a haircut?
ericstephen123 3 years ago
dont forget that some people are just inherently stupid.
jannonymous 3 years ago
Touche.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
i agree with what your saying. in jersy. i fund it unfair that the public school gets the credit all residents, even the ones like me in private school.
and even now my tow is beng hardheaded and not letting me into a school they kicked me out of on false claims. supposedly they were short half a kid.... however that happened.
KorruSama 3 years ago
You can also look at this from another point of view. The schools are so bad the kids who go there need to be tested to make sure they still work. Or still another, that the kids are learning exactly what 'they' want them to learn.
When the state gets involved in education it can cause a conflict of interest. If your not teaching them what your supposed to think/learn then it can cut off funding. Just like when an advertiser pulls its ads off a program because it doesn't like the content.
Simpateeko 3 years ago
Oh, I agree completely... the teachers' unions can definitely tend to be a force for evil in education... However, let's not kid ourselves about the fact that unions may often be necessary at times.
Because of this tendency for corruption, I do wholeheartedly support the importance of standardized testing... however, I maintain that private schools should not be exempt from it, too, so long as they want to receive public voucher money for potential voucher students.
...It's only fair.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
Another thing that may be destroying our education system is that some schools have allowed the implementation of "Ebonics" to educate students. This is how the torch gets passed on. I really believe that Ebonics was primarily used to separate themselves (blacks) from white people. What kills me the most is that people in general, who live under this culture of Ebonics, seem to rebel against someone who is formal, or even just normal, and then perceive it as "acting white"
DigitalCoins 3 years ago 3
Your conclusions are perfect. In many ways I can see the positives to voucher systems, but all schools, private and public, must be graded by the same standards to ensure parents know what quality of school they are sending their child to. But I also go one step further; no religious school should be allowed to accept government money through vouchers. Wanna teach humans and dinosaurs lived together in piece? Do it without public money.
hurricanerae 3 years ago
Oh, absolutely. Most private schools are religious schools... and if private schools want to receive public voucher money, they should be required to submit to the same exact performance standards as public schools are.
...If they don't want to submit to the testing, fine. But that means they can't possibly qualify for voucher money in any way.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
By the way, how's your health doing?
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
Public school are a terrible mess. Most private schools are better because they compete for paying students.
montaramike 3 years ago
That seems logical, but how can you be sure?
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
What can you really be sure of in life?
montaramike 3 years ago
Well, I can be fairly sure that I'll never see Queen Elizabeth II giving a lap dance to Snoop Dogg.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
Not familiar with the education system here in the state of Washington, but I saw some crazy "new math" they were teaching because regular math is "too hard". Schools are a mixed lot. There were a few teachers for me that made the difference, but as whole, the system is still "classing' people(is that a word?), especially those who can afford good education. Studying for tests can be good, but teachers also "teach the test" and put limits on childrens achievements.
ozjthomas 3 years ago
The schools educate us less than good parents, books, television, the internet, and plain curiosity in my opinion.
Donkeyhawk 3 years ago 2
Probably true to a great degree, but I do know that, for many kids, the right teachers can be pivotal in changing their lives for the better.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
When I was in school we didnt have the FCAT until deep into high school. you used to still be able to be passed to the next grade if the teachers knew you werent stupid and didnt want to put up with you another year like in my case. now there's so many children repeating grades it is horrifying. I thought the idea was to give out as many high school diplomas as easily as possible as to mabye hopefully allow this monster pieces of crap to get a job and not kill us when they got out of school.
Donkeyhawk 3 years ago
I was born in California, moved away as a baby to Florida and raised in FLA, spending summers in NY NJ PA tri state area , occasionally visiting NYC through the years. the roads are shitty up north compared to FL. anyway yeah I got kicked out of public school my junior year, I got my diploma through one of those reject schools all the criminals go to when they get expelled, and turned into somewhat of a criminal myself. no felony convictions though WOOT !
Donkeyhawk 3 years ago
Yeah, it sucks when you have to move around all the time like that... you don't get to set down good, solid roots and center yourself as much.
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago
In Holland we've got highway indicators and matrix signs every 100 meter.
cynicaster 3 years ago
Now that's how you do it!
TheLogicJunkie 3 years ago