How dare a mere man put the character and motives of God on trial, using nothing more than sin tainted human emotions and logic as the ruling authority for his argument.
READ ROMANS CHAPTER 8 & 9!
Why did God not spare the Egyptians as well as the Jews?
@R1K2G3 Yes, if we obscure our meanings enough in confusing language, we can justify whatever we want.
Perhaps your definition of responsibility means something to you, but it doesn't seem to capture anything for me. Let's start over:
Responsibility is the requirement that one act in a certain manner.
What sense does it make to require something if it is categorically impossible? I might as well hold my computer monitor responsible for making me a sandwich (and then damn it to Hell).
@cda1117 Was the definition of responsibility that I provided too confusing for you?
Your definition: "Responsibility is the requirement that one act in a certain manner."
Yep, God requires His creatures 'act in a certain manner', and this with regard to His Law.
You asked, "What sense does it make to require something if it is categorically impossible?" Impossible commands (imperatives) are given by God so that we may recognize our own impotence to please God.
Brother Walls doesn't understand that all men are not sheep, but he's spot on about the inconsistency of the ersatz sovereign grace theology of D A Carson. These Neo-Cals like Carson and Piper want to tell men that God loves them but without the candor of telling them that, in their theology, God sends a lot of people he loves straight to hell. The truth is God does not love all men as is manifest by Rom 9:13, Ps 10:3, Ps 11:5, etc. Walls, Carson and Piper all get this wrong.
The Good Shepherd finds his sheep (John 10:11) and some are not his sheep (John 10:26). Brother Walls seems to think that the whole world are sheep. Until he gets rid of that false doctrine his theology will the be train wreck he demonstrates it to be. Moreover, John Piper's theology is equally bad - perhaps the most inconsistent and unstable form of "Calvinism" that I have encountered - and that's saying something.
For some reason, Arminians think that we have to have free will to be responsible to God - This is not the case at all; for we are his creation and he is our creator, we are always responsible to him no matter what, he is never answerable to anyone. No matter what God does, it is permissible, because he himself defines what is permissible; nothing is above God.
"No matter what God does, it is permissible, because he himself defines what is permissible; nothing is above God."
Well said.
The most frustrating thing about discussion theology with Arminians is their common practice of judging God's actions by their own standards of justice and fairness.
I'm assuming this preacher has never read Romans 8:28-35??
Or for that matter the book of Genesis where God chooses Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, passes over the Israelites and does not save the Egyptians etc etc.
This guy seems very happy to question and ridicule ideas that are Bible based and therefore ends up questioning God. Piper is right, at the end of the day God is always just. Believing that to be true with all its implications is what FAITH is.
It seems to me that the Calvinist does not understand the propisition of free will as the Arminian does not understand the points of tulip, making a twisted, and tangled mess of debate, hurling scriptures around like a soldier would a lance at the enemy. I was raised to believe that the bible was a message of hope to a lost and dieing world. Where is this blessed hope for the sinsick soul? Where is the beackon of light in a dark world? Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
"Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
We must repent, or turn from our sin in submission to Christ and place our faith in His completed work on the cross as payment in full for our sin.
BTW - these are not things we can muster up on our own, but gifts from God.
The problem these Arminians have is believing that everyone ever born on Earth is a "Child of God"...
Rom 8:14 Paul says that those that are lead by the spirit of God are the children of God.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Obviously meaning that those who aren't lead by the spirit of God, or those who haven't received Jesus, ARE NOT the children of God they're God-hating sinners in rebellion.
"“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."
Suppose Mr. Walls were to arrive in heaven and learn that John Calvin's teachings were actually true and his children weren't elect, would he curse God?
So our understanding of God must pass through the filter of wether we deem His actions as acceptable or not?
WRONG ANSWER!
Jer. 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
Isa. 55:8-9
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
"“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!"
If it is read in COTEXT it is easily understood as some of the closing remarks in a long rebuke against the Jewish leaders of Christ's day.
A completely different meaning than this guy gives it.
@Bill244888 Amen Bill, good answer. The Jewish leaders of Jerusalem weren't more powerful than Christ, and certainly couldn't overcome Him in "trying" to save anyone. The Lord was condemning those stiff-necked hypocrites who couldn't see or know God because of all their religion.
ITS FUNNY HOW HE KKEPS SAYING THAT GOD PASSES OVER HIS CHILDREN FOR DAMNATION HAHAHA. I WONDER WHAT MAKES HIM THINK THAT EVERYONE IS HIS CHILDREN AND THEN HE USES THAT GOD LEAVES THE 99 SHEEP FOR 1 SHEEP THAT GOT LOST HAHA THAT SHEEP WAS PART OF THAT FLOCK AND THERE FOR THE FATHER WENT TO GET IT BACK
Sure God elects, has the right to choose whom he will but the bible tells us who God has chosen. "Whosoever will" are the chosen. Not "whosoever won't". Now when all stand before the judgment and Nero says well, why are you forgiving Peter there who is admittingly a sinner? God says, I will have mercy on whom I will.
@tiredoldcrow Whosoever will believe... that's just it... no one will believe, not on their own anyway, because man's heart is wicked and in love with his evil deeds. The natural man is at enmity with God (which means he is God's ENEMY) sinners hate God and His Law.
It's not whosoever will decide, or whosoever will choose to better his estate here on earth or hereafter. Think about it why would a sinner who loves his sin "choose" to leave it and Love a God that he hates???
@EverydayRevival Yes, all should agree to the sinful nature of man but at the hearing of the gospel some will turn to the Lord, an act of the will. Gospel, Holy spirit travel togeather convincing man of sin, man is inclined to sin untill the day he dies but after the light of the word may choose conformation to the will of God, or not. Thanks for response and hope that you and yours had a fine thanksgiving day.
@Bill244888 Exactly!!! God is glorified by every sinner's repentance because it is something that no man could or would do on his own. Every time someone repents and believes the Gospel it is a miracle akin to that of raising someone from the dead, a spiritual resurrection and the angels rejoice in Heaven because it is God that conquers the sinful nature of man and changes his heart so that he can know and love the God that created him.
"Exactly!!! God is glorified by every sinner's repentance because it is something that no man could or would do on his own."
It's really not that I enjoy arguing, it's just that Arminianism improperly elevates man in both importance and ability and robs God of the proper glory He is due in saving men.
BTW - I haven't seen you posting in a while. Good to hear from you again!
How dare a mere man put the character and motives of God on trial, using nothing more than sin tainted human emotions and logic as the ruling authority for his argument.
READ ROMANS CHAPTER 8 & 9!
Why did God not spare the Egyptians as well as the Jews?
Jajaja, how funny this preacher is!!, instead of using John Piper to make a message he should use the bible to preach Arminianism. He call him self a Christian but doesn't accept calvinist as John Wesley once did. He preaches a God of love but insults and ridicules his christian brother just to justify his own believes instead of appointing the bible. He doesn't know who God is. The issue is not what man is worth is who God is. He is the center of the universe, not man.
So you are you saying man should be the center of the universe? or maybe that it is ok for christians to attack one another? or is it ok to preach something not using the bible?
I am a calvinist attending to a arminian church, and i love my brothers even if i don't always agree with some preaching. It is not about calvinism or arminianism, it is all about the glory of God. So... yup, very serious. Please tell me what you think.
@jorgemacsparrow Dude, this is a debate. Get over your self-righteousness and, um, repent. If you're a Calvinist, you might need to look the word "repent" up.
Just take out the doctrine of eternal damnation and insert universal reconciliation and the compatibilist position becomes unassailable in its consistency.
my only issue with this is he keeps saying "freedom"... No man is absolutely free. God is the only, totally free one. We are in bondage to a will. Either a will of sin, or a will of the Spirit.
To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. LK 15:7
Wall concluded at 4:56 "He doesn't leave the one."
@446165 Indeed, the fallacious assertion of the "universal Fatherhood of God" is common among synergists. They don't seem to recognize that only believers are children...and that by adoption. In other words, we as believers were not born children of God, but children of wrath (and, one might say, children of the wicked one). To be adopted as children by the Father, one must be born again [from above] (Jn.3:3).
Indeed, Dr. Walls makes a number of errors in his presentation.
this dude is taking Piper totally out of context...in Piper's book "Christian Hedonism" he is not saying that all men (and women) glorify God when they are most satisfied in Him, but rather HIS CHILDREN...the lecturer is not being precise at all!!
Apparently this guy Walls has never read Romans 9. God left Esau to his sins. He chose Jacob and He DID passover Esau. Why did Walls mention this when it totally destroys the point he was making?
7:01 "Why does He need to do that?" WHO ARE YOU O MAN THAT REPLIES AGAINST GOD? Why don't you, puny MAN Walls, complain to God that His Angel of death passed over Israel but NOT the Egyptians! Complain to God that He let the Amorites ripen themselves for judgment while sending no prophet!! (Gen 15:16)
@patrckhh20 You've completely wretched Romans 9 out of context. The issue that Paul is addressing concerns HOW there could even be a division within Israel, when God made promises to the seed of Abraham. He is not addressing WHY there is a division. God has the right to choose for service anyone HE pleases (Isaac, Jacob, etc.), without promising salvation. Salvation is only obtained through faith. Friend, you need to take off your Calvinist glasses and approach the Scripture objectively.
@ThePristineFaith Seems that you made my case for me. Some are only physical descendants of Israel, and some are the true spiritual people of God. And Paul explains this division by nothing else than God's free choice. Before they were born, not having done any good or evil, that GOD'S PURPOSE according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM THAT CALLS. THAT is why they are not all Israel that are of Israel.
Take off your Arminian glasses and realize GOD has free will, not us.
@ThePristineFaith I am just curious how you came to the conclusion that Romans 9 is about service as opposed to salvation? Paul clearly speaks of the salvation of the Jews in the beginning which gives us the context of this chapter?
@patrckhh20 god is choosing the line from which christ will come. jacob and esau is speaking of the nations that spring forth from each. next your gen 15:14-16 quote is out of context where god's judgement on egypt is fulfilling the prophecy of 14-16. to avoid condemnation all a nation has to do is abide by noah's covenant. next those killed in egypt/amorites will be individually judged, for it is by faith that you can please god, everybody dies, some sooner than others.
@RedLetterChristian How is God choosing a nation explaining the fact that "they are not all Israel which of Israel?" And why isn't the whole seed of Abraham counted as his children?
My point remains, God said their iniquity was not yet full, and He let them fill it up for 400yrs without sending any prophet. (cf Mat 23:32, Rom 9:22).
Gen 15:14 "that NATION will I judge." Amazing, when God says He judges a nation, you make it personal, and when He chooses individuals, you make it national!
Jacob was loved and Esau was hated, before any of them had done anything, good or bad... that is, Unconditional Election.
This means (according to Calvin's understanding of Romans 9) that Esau was proactively condemned by God (he was thus "hated"), without regard to his sin or goodness.
Calvinism (and Calvin himself) says that both Election to Salvation and Election to Reprobation are an Unchanging, Unconditional, Eternal Decree.
People of themselves are nothing but sin and evil. They have no ability of themselves to be Christians. The only man who is a Christian is the man whom God has made a Christian. And those whom God has made Christians will remain Christians for a regenerate man cannot become an unregenerate man.
The problem with this Arminians argument is,not all people are God's children.God would never send His child to Hell,but He would send Satan's child to Hell.
@CBALLEN Is55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
If God wanted everyone saved then this scripture is a lie,but if God wanted His word to save His elect and damn the goats,then it is 100% true.
But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (Luke 12:48)
see also how Jesus explains The Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13:10-15 “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given."
it seems to me that many calvinists identify arminiansim with pelagianism. these two are not the same at all.
that faith preceedes regeneration does not remove the initiative from God, for what preceeded faith? the personal encounter with the Holy Spirit. it is THIS whereby we have the means to respond or not. but this the calvinsts ignore
How can one read John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."Look at the word "even" & look at the word "nor of the will of man". Regeneration is done by God not us! Then we believe and repent (which is our conversion experience). I was an Arminian, not any more! I am saved by his grace& not from anythg insde me
The debate comes down to this in my opinion: A number of verses can be used as a starting point for Calvinism and a lot of the verses can be used for a starting point for Arminianism. It comes down to which doctrine better explains the verses that do not seem to support their point of view, and I believe that Calvin failed to to do this especially when it comes to limited atonement, but Calvinists do not, but I will still see them in glory.
@ArminianMorningTea Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any free copies of this debate. I know that Lane Chaplin has a ten minute video of Bruce Ware speaking (same debate). You might want to check ebay or amazon, as the debate isn't very expensive from what I recall.
@ArminianMorningTea If you look under the summary of the video you can see the link to the apologetics group. It should still be on their website. Let me know if you have any problems.
@geico1975 You are correct. God first determined that Judas accept Jesus and the call to discipleship. Then God pulled a 180 and determined that Judas betray His Son. These are the cold hard facts of determinism.
I suspect, it is impossible for one to know whether or not they are predestined to be saved? For instance, if I wanted to be saved, but I am determined; by God, not to be saved, then it would be in vain to attempt salvation? Therefore, if this is true, then the notion that Jesus died for ALL person's salvation is false. The truth would be, that Jesus died for all persons CHOOSEN for salvation, correct?
@geico1975 Yes, the logical outworking of Calvinism is that Jesus died only for those whom he chose in eternity past for salvation. If one was not chosen, then Jesus didn't die for them. No one can possibly no if they are of the elect (well, maybe if they persevere all the way to the end of their lives can they know). For all they know God chose to enlighten them for a season (and one would believe they are saved), but afterwards God chose to strike them with greater blindness.
@ThePristineFaith Actually we do know if we are of the elect because we believe, repent, and have a change of heart. All of these are the signs that we have received the Holy spirit and are born again, as Jesus said we must be to see the kingdom of Heaven. Arminians are the ones who talk about worrying that they'll lose their salvation, especially roman Catholics. We Calvinists know if we are saved that no one can snatch us away from Christ, never!
@geico1975 you are not going to want to follow Jesus or believe the gospel if you do not have the Holy spirit. Only those chosen by the Father and given to the Son are going to hear and believe the gospel. As Jesus told the unbelieving Jews in John chap.8, verses 41 thru 47. Only those saved by the blood of Christ hear His voice. Jesus calls the others the devil's children. Believing is a result of God converting you at your appointed time. You know you are saved when you believe.
@DougCameraMan You keep on insisting that people are given the Holy Spirit before they have believed the Holy Spirit is given AFTER they believe. This is clear from scripture. I quoted you those two verses. Should you just ignore them? “Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or BY BELIEVING”, “Having BELIEVED, you were marked …with….the promised Holy Spirit”
The Calvinist has Jesus saving some sinners for all of their sins; past, present and future, there is no possibility that those for whom Christ died could ever be lost according to the doctrine of grace. The Arminian has a problem in that he says Christ died for everyone but only those who actually believe in him get the benefit of christ's death and eternal life. So for the Arminian, the one sin that Christ did not die for on the cross is unbelief, since unbelief leads one to Hell.
@DougCameraMan Believing is the means by which we are saved. "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned..."Jn3
If Christ died only for the elect and paid for every single one of their sins (including unbelief) then according to your logic there would be no need for the elect to believe anything. They would automatically be saved because all their sins are paid for, regardless of if they believe or not. We both know, only those who believe are saved.
@shteve77 stands condemned already, as in from the foundation of the world. The difference is you believe the saved are saved because they make a good decision to believe that Christ saved them. I believe we are saved because God has chosen us, the elect, and given us to the Son who paid for our sins at the cross. You think we're saved because we believe. I think we' believe because we're saved and given the gift of faith.
@DougCameraMan You're wrong to say that we believe because we are saved. Scripture says we have life as a result of believing. "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that BY BELIEVING WE MAY HAVE LIFE in his name."Jn20:31
If Christ paid for all the sins of the elect on the cross and that automatically made them saved then there would be no need for them to believe, but they must believe to have life and are dead in their sins until they believe
@shteve77 You would not believe if you did not have the Holy Spirit and have been reborn. That is the difference between believers and those who don't. We are all dead, not just merely sick, until the Holy Spirit comes into us and convicts us of our sins and gives us the gift of faith. If God didn't come into us to change our stone hearts to flesh then we never would.
"To all who were appointed to eternal life believed". It's cause and effect. God causes our faith.
@DougCameraMan You don't actually believe what the Bible says. We are dead until we believe. We have life only after we believe. John20:31 says so. There is no such thing as a regenerated, born again person who hasn't believed and is still dead in their sins.
@shteve77 We have eternal life because the Father chose us and gave us to Christ to save. Only those given to Christ and saved at the cross will believe. Believing is a result of our being chosen and receiving the Holy Spirit and saved. It all gets down to who chose who. Did God choose the saved, or do we choose ourselves? Some people in error think that Jesus only made salvation POSSIBLE, that we must do something additional (believe) to what he did at the cross to complete it. That's wrong
@DougCameraMan You are saying that we are in fact saved before we believe. John20:31 says "that by believing you may have life in His Name". We are dead in our sins until we believe. Life is given AFTER we believe, not before. If what you teach is true, there would be no need for the elect to hear the gospel or believe it, they would simply be saved regardless.
@shteve77 You said "that by believing...". John 20:31 doesn't say "by believing". If it said "by believing" it would support what your idea that by believing we are saved. But it doesn't say BY believing. "These are written that you may believe..." By believing we can know that we are saved. It is the evidence. It is our proof, but it is not what causes our salvation. Our salvation is accomplished by the Father, Son and Holy spirit, all working together.
@DougCameraMan Here it is, I copied and pasted it directly from the NIV online Bible. "and that BY BELIEVING you may have life". Or the ESV "and that BY BELIEVING you may have life".
As you can see it DOES say BY BELIEVING, so I am glad you now concede that we only have life as a result of believing and not before.
@shteve77 It doesn't say "by believing" in my Bible. If it did, it would help make your case but still, believing is not the cause, it is the result of being chosen and receiving the Holy spirit. I think we agree on the main thing, that Christ died for our eternal life.... we just disagree on who chose who. So lets agree to disagree on the technicalities which the truth will be revealed in time. I enjoyed our little debate but I must move on now.
@DougCameraMan I'm pretty sure that if your Bible doesn't use the exact words "by believing" it says something that means the same. I quoted you from 2 main stream translations that do say "BY BELIEVING" NIV & ESV.
It is BY BELIEVING we have life. We are dead until we believe. "these are written that you may believe....and that BY BELIEVING you may have life". It's written in black and white.
@shteve77 my Bible says "...and that believing you may have life in his name". But these are just various translations, they can vary between them. Our difference is not a word or two, it's that you believe people are saved because they choose by their own free will to believe and that saves them. We believe that believing is a result of the Holy Spirit coming to live in us as Christ's people. His sheep; the many that He died to save.
@DougCameraMan What do you actually think "and that believing you may have life" actually means? It means exactly the same thing that the NIV & ESV say. It means that believing gives you life.
It's quite clear from scripture. "Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that BY BELIEVING you may have LIFE in his name."Jn20:31
@shteve77 Believing is for us the evidence, well part of the evidence, that we are changed people, born of the Holy Spirit and have a new heart of flesh instead of one of stone. Confessing christ as Lord and savior is how we know we are saved. But it is not why we are saved. Do you understand?
@DougCameraMan The Philippian jailer asked "What must I do to be saved. Paul and Silas didn't say "nothing, maybe God has elected you". They said "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved". We cross over from death to life WHEN we believe. Not before. What you are saying mean that a person can be saved even if they haven't believed the Gospel yet. It is when we believe we have life.
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who BELIEVES in me will LIVE"Jn11:25. Believing results in life.
@DougCameraMan It is God who makes men born again, and who does He do this for? Scripture tells us. "Yet to all who RECEIVED him, to those who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"Jn1:12
God promises that all who believe on Him, He will do something for them. He will make them born again. Scripture is quite clear we have life as a result of believing. There is no such thing as a born again, regenerated person who hasn't believed.
@shteve77 You're wrong. When Nicodemus wondered how he could see the kingdom of Heaven Jesus didn't tell him he needed to believe; no, he told him one cannot see the kingdom of Heaven unless one is born again. Then he spoke of it being like the wind, no one knows from where it comes or goes, like with the Spirit. God chose those who would receive the Holy Spirit before the foundation of the world, in eternity, and it is at our appointed times that we receive him and THEN believe and repent.
@DougCameraMan Of course Jesus told Nicodemus he had to believe. Nicodemus asked "how can this be" and then Jesus still talking to Nicodemus said "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone WHO BELIEVES in him may have eternal life.
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
@shteve77 Nicodemus asked Jesus but how can a man be born again, can he re-enter his mother's womb? Jesus told him it was a spiritual birth. We agree that we are saved if we believe, we just differ on why they believe. You say it's their free will choice, I say it's when we're born again and receive the Holy spirit that we believe, have faith in Christ, and repent.
@DougCameraMan You are clearly wrong. Scripture is very clear that we receieve the Holy Spirit AFTER we believe. Please explain what those two verse I quoted are actually saying if I am wrong. "Having BELIEVED, you were marked in him with a seal....Holy Spirit"Ephesians1:13 ,"Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or BY BELIEVING what you heard?"Galations3:2
@shteve77 You assume the words to fit your belief. Jesus said that no man can come to him unless the Father draws him to Jesus. It's the Holy Spirit that in the person that draws him to Christ. People without the Holy Spirit are not drawn to Christ. Speaking of Ephesians, Paul wrote: "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus to himself, according to HIS will".
@DougCameraMan Jesus also said "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself."Jn12:32, and The Holy Spirit "will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment"Jn16:8.
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It is clear from those two verses I quoted that the Holy Spirit is given AFTER someone believes. (Ep1:13,Gal3:2) If they don't teach that then please explain to me what those two verses are actually saying?
@shteve77 my Bible says "will draw all peoples to me".... people from all nations. We know that not all people are drawn to Christ, in fact, more people are not drawn than are, so if he meant 'All people" then it hasn't happened. I don't think he meant all people, if he did he meant all of HIS people; his flock, his sheep, his bride, fellow heirs of the kingdom. He didn't mean those people he called "the devil's children" - John 8;44.
@DougCameraMan The KJV and the ESV say "all people", the NIV says "all men". Actually the original simply say "pas". "All". It doesn't say men or people or peoples. The original literally says "and I if I be lifted up from the Earth, ALL will draw to myself."
The problem is that you assume if someone is drawn they will come. They could not have come unless they were drawn, but the drawing doesn't mean they will definitley come.
@DougCameraMan The fact remains that no-one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit until they believe, and no who has no believed has life. There are many, many scriptures that say the same thing.
@shteve77 Acts 2:38 Peter does say repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost. The Father has already made the chosen elect willing to come to Christ and to receive the Holy ghost. However you want to look at it, it's God who has done the choosing and brings Christ's people to repentance and faith.
@DougCameraMan You previously said that it was the Holy Spirit inside the person that makes them believe. What I have been saying is that a person receives the Holy Spirit as a result of believing. That is what scripture says. Yes, God choose men to be saved but what I dispute is that He only wants some to be saved. There are many verses that indicate He wants all to be saved. If God does the choosing then He must change men against their will and therefore grace must be Irresistible, but..cont.
@DougCameraMan Eze18:23 says "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?"
If Irresistible Grace is true and God really would prefer the wicked repent and live then He would make them repent and live. The fact that most of them perish in their sins shows that either, Grace is not Irresistible, or that God lied when He says that He would prefer the wicked to repent and live.
@DougCameraMan Or Acts7:51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"
The Holy Spirit wanted the people to believe the gospel but they resisted and persecuted God's messengers as their Fathers had done. Irresistible grace is not true.
@DougCameraMan Clearly the people resisted the Holy Spirit. That's what scripture says. Obviously the Holy Spirit wanted the people to do something but they wouldn't. If the Holy Spirit didn't want these people to believe the message that the apostles were bringing then the people weren't restisting the Holy Spirit at all but doing exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted. The Holy Spirit wanted them to obey the message the apostles were telling them, the people resisted.
@shteve77 or it may have appeared that the non-believers were resisting the Holy Spirit by their behavior, the writer's perception of what he saw. I don't know, but the elect receive irresistible grace and "at their appointed time they believed".
@DougCameraMan If grace was Irresistible then the people that Jesus wept for in Mat23:37, saying "How often I have longed to gather you", would have come. He says they were not willing. If Irresistible Grace is true then Christ lied, becuase He didn't really want to gather the people to Him at all.
@shteve77 I've heard that one before from Arminians. That and John 3:16 seem to be favorites. I don't think Jesus ever lied, first off. True, they were not willing, as all non-believers are not willing, only the chosen are willing. That the Father chose some, and not all, to be saved doesn't lessen Jesus' pity for those who perish in their sins, right? No one is saying men don't have free will, Calvinists just say men are slaves to the natures, whether evil or righteous.
@DougCameraMan Have you ever read the verse? Jesus says "how often I have LONGED to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."
But you actually believe Jesus didn't want them to come. The only reason in the mind of the Calvinist as to why Jesus didn't get what He says He LONGED for was because Jesus choice not to irresistibly draw them. How could anyone really believe Jesus longed for them when He doesn't want them to come?
@shteve77 I believe it can be viewed as consistent with the doctrine of grace; unconditional election & limited atonement. You remember, the Father gave the elect to the Son to save? Perhaps the Father reveals things to the Son as time passes while he preached on Earth. Jesus may not have known exactly who was chosen when he said this, just as you and I don't. He preached to all as he saw them. Some believed, repented their sins, had faith but their believing was predestined.
@DougCameraMan You are completely missing the point. You believe that those that God wants to be saved will be saved, He will make them come to His Son. Here Jesus says He has LONGED for these people to come to Him. Clearly Jesus expresses that He wants these people saved, He has longed for them to be saved, but they aren't. Do you really believe that Jesus wanted these people to come to Him, but chose not to save them when He could have?
@shteve77 The Father chose the saved. Jesus saves all that the Father gives him. It sounds like Jesus preached as if he didn't know who was chosen to come to him, at least not at the time he said this.
@DougCameraMan Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus and God want the same thing. Jesus says that He longed to save these people. Are you seriously telling me that Jesus longed to save them but chose not too?
@shteve77 We are chosen for salvation before we believe, yes. We receive eternal life when the Holy spirit comes to live in us, at our appointed time. God has provided the means for his elect to hear the gospel and to believe it.
Okay, I think I'm getting this, when you say, "Only those who believe are saved." Then, only the believers are determined to be saved? Well, I know this is impossible, but what would happen if all people started to believe? That means all people are predestained to be saved, right?
I don't mind saying this, while I think it is really an interesting topic, it can indeeed get confusing. I'm taking a class in college and weve been talking about free will v. predestination.
@geico1975 Sorry friend, could you re-state your question? I'm not sure what you are asking me?
By they way, for what it's worth I don't believe Judas was predestined to betray Christ at all. The fact that God knew what Judas would choose to do doesn't mean Judas had no choice.
Yeah, I was basically concluding that if all people decided to believe and turn to Jesus, then all people would have been predestained to believe and be saved.
However, I understand that for all people to believe would be far-fetched.
@geico1975 God certainly knows who will believe the Gospel but I don't believe that means they were Pre-Destined by God to believe. Actually Rom8:29 makes it clear that for those that God knew would believe the Gospel. These God has pre-destined to become like Christ in character. "For those God foreknew he also predestined TO BE CONFORMED to the likeness of his Son".
@shteve77 romans 8:29 desn't say that those God knew who would believe and chose on that basis. It says God foreknew us and predestined us. God knew us, which is another way of saying that God loved us....not that he based his choice on anything good or bad about us because we were all sinners he chose to save. Paul makes it clear in Romans that we are chosen in spite of being bad.
@DougCameraMan It says those who God foreknew. Why would God need to use His foreknowledge to know that He already had elected us? "Those that God foreknew He has predestined.." But you didn't finish the verse. Predestined to salvation? It doesn't say that it says "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son"!
Calvinism has to be confronted. It is splitting healthy churches all around. I am too busy doing THE WORK to get pulled into this rathole debate. But when it rears it's head at my church I feel I have to stand against it.
the Arminian's problem with the gospel is that they believe that "fairness"is based on their view of it, not God's view. They want doctrine that fits in with their humanistic thinking and so they twist verses saying that Jesus saved all men, the whole world, etc. They can't comprehend that a righteous and fair God would actually choose to save some but not everyone. But Jesus made it clear that not all people were his sheep. Only his sheep hear his voice and follow him. The others can't.
@DougCameraMan That's pretty funny, a Calvinist saying that non Calvinists 'twist' scripture and try to say Jesus came to save all men or the whole world...... Let's see what scripture says without 'twisting' anything.
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for EVERYONE." Hebrews 2:9
@DougCameraMan...."(and for this we labour and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior OF ALL MEN, and especially of those WHO BELIEVE." 1 Tim 4:10
"This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men." 1 Timothy 2:1-5
@DougCameraMan "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Saviour of the world" 1 John 4:14
"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to ALL MEN, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN, resulting in justification of life." Romans5:18
@DougCameraMan Acts7:51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"
The Holy Spirit wanted the people to believe the gospel but they resisted and persecuted God's messengers as their Fathers had done. Irresistible grace is a false doctrine.
@shteve77 Sure, the Devil's children (John 8:44) resist the Holy Spirit. But God's children don't. Christ Jesus speaking to those Jews who mocked him and didn't believe said: "But you do not believe, why? Because you are NOT MY Sheep. MY sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me, and I give them eternal life. .." - John 10: 25 - 30. His sheep follow him, the Devil's children don't. Not all people are God's children. Jesus said it and I believe it!
@DougCameraMan "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." If they did belong to Christ they would have listened and followed Him and believed. They don't. The Bible doesn't contradict itself and I quoted 6 verses showing that Christ died for all men. You didn't comment on any of them???
So the Holy Spirit wanted them people to do something but they wouldn't, what was it? If the Holy Spirit didn't want them to believe then they were doing what He wanted and not resisting.
@shteve77 so you agree that there are Christ's sheep and those who are not his sheep, correct? We both agree to that, yet you say that Christ died for "all men" so that would mean he died for some that are not his sheep, correct? That would contradict the majority of other verses in the scriptures that say otherwise, including the words spoken by Jesus himself. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep" - John 10:11. Why did he say "sheep" instead of everyone?
@DougCameraMan You will notice that Christ says He laid for His life for "the sheep". There is a specific group of people that He calls "His sheep". They are the ones who hear His voice and follow Him. The others are also sheep, just not "His sheep" which is consistent with the other verses that I quoted.
As for Acts7 it is clear that the Holy Spirit wanted the people to do something but they resisted.
@shteve77 The other sheep are also his, but "not of this fold". They also hear his voice...and there will be one flock and one shepherd. - John 10:14 - 16. But that is not to say that ALL people are his sheep... that he saves. Jesus clearly says in the gospel of John that some of the people he was speaking to were "children of the devil", not his sheep, and they could NOT hear him. He never says that he is dying for the children of the devil he was reprimanding in John 8:44.
@DougCameraMan There are those that He says are "His sheep". The include all the ones who will come to believe. They are described as "His sheep". But it doesn't say He lay down His life for "His sheep", it says "The sheep".
You only seem to want to discuss the one verse from John10. What about those 6 verses I quoted, ie, Christ "tasted death for everyone", or Act7:51?
@shteve77 you're right, John chap. 10, verse 15 says "the sheep" not "my sheep", but the next verse clarifies whose sheep they are when Jesus continues, "and other sheep I Have...." So the sheep he is speaking of in verse 15 are part of the other sheep that HE HAS in verse 16, and then in verse 17 he says "I lay down my life". For who? His sheep! He says in another verse that he prays for those the Father has given to him, but NOT for the world. Would he die for those he wouldn't pray for?
@DougCameraMan Nowhere does Jesus say He lays down His life for "His sheep". He says "The sheep". The ones who hear His voice and follow Him, He identifies as "His sheep". He also says "I have other sheep", but these too are identified as "His sheep".
Those other 6 verses I gave (which you haven't commented on) show that Jesus did in fact give His life for "all men". You haven't commented on any of them. You only seem to discuss John 10?
@shteve77 "MY sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me, and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand". - John10:27 & 28. Sounds very clear to me that Jesus said HIS sheep, he sure wasn't talking about the Devil's sheep that he gives eternal life to. Why does anyone have eternal life? Because Jesus gave his life on the cross to save us. He said clearly that he was giving his life for HIS sheep in John 10: 27 & 28.
@DougCameraMan Show me anywhere that Jesus says He laid down His life for "His sheep"? He says "The sheep". Clearly there are some sheep who are His sheep but He said He died for "The sheep".
"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."
Was it only the elect under condemnation? It was all men and the gift is for all men.
@shteve77 "MY sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me, and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand". - John10:27 & 28. Sounds very clear to me that Jesus said HIS sheep, he sure wasn't talking about the Devil's sheep that he gives eternal life to.
@DougCameraMan It is clear in Jn12:47 that many of the world that Christ came to save will be judged for rejecting Him. Is the "world" in this verse (that Jesus says He came to save) only the elect?
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words...."
@shteve77 That's a good one. Jesus was saying he did not come to judge the world, not anyone in the world, believer or non-believer. He said the judgment is the Father's, his mission was to save his people in the world...but not to save the entire world otherwise the entire world would be saved. Jesus never failed to accomplish anything he wanted to do. However, Arminians like to give him credit for offering salvation to the non-believers but he just couldn't convince them to accept it!
@DougCameraMan He didn't say He came to "save His people in the world". You have changed the verse. It is quite clear from the context if the verse that the word 'world' includes those who will be judged for rejecting Christ, and Christ says He came to save it [the world]. Why won't you comment on those 6 verses I gave you? Christ "tasted death for everyone", He "wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth:, He "is the saviour of all men, especially those who believe"......
@shteve77 - the following verse: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience many will be made righteous." Who hears his words? The saved, believers. He was saying he did not come to judge believers who hear his words, but he says there is a judge for those who do not hear his words
@DougCameraMan The next verse doesn't change the preceeding verse. Clearly the 'many' who were made sinners through Adam's sin is the same group as the "all men" in the preceeding verse. It includes all men without exception. This is this same group that the free gift of salvation through Christ is for.
.
No He says He didn't come to judge the world but to save it, and it is clear that there are those who are part of the world He says He came to save, who will be judged for rejecting Christ.
@shteve77 Not neccessarily the same group. You're reading that into it but it doesn't say that. Also, the word "many" could mean "all" or it could just mean "many" but not all. But you did pick a good verse to try to stretch. :) Unfortunately, there is so much of the rest of the scripture including the words of Christ himself that refute the idea that he died for all people instead of just the chosen. I suggest you read books by Gordon Clark, Loraine Boettner, R.C. Sproul, James White, AW Pink
@DougCameraMan You are ignoring what the verse actually says. The "many" who were made sinners by Adam's sin are the 'many' who can be made righteous through Christ. 5:18 says just as "ALL" are under condemnation because of Adam's sin, the gift of righteousness through Christ is for "ALL". Actually there is so much of the rest of scripture that also supports this, and I quoted some other verses but you never responded to them.
@DougCameraMan...•...."(and for this we labour and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior OF ALL MEN, and especially of those WHO BELIEVE." 1 Tim 4:10
•..."This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men." 1 Timothy 2:1-5
@DougCameraMan One verse trumps another? Really. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. Clearly, the "many" in Rom5:19 are all men without exception, unless you believe not all men are under condemnation because
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This video is the essence of pride and arrogance!
How dare a mere man put the character and motives of God on trial, using nothing more than sin tainted human emotions and logic as the ruling authority for his argument.
READ ROMANS CHAPTER 8 & 9!
Why did God not spare the Egyptians as well as the Jews?
Bill244888 1 month ago
Dr. Walls' assertion: "Free will (the power of contrary choice) is the prerequisite for responsibility."
Definition of responsibility:
1) The giving of a response (or, the rendering of an account).
2) Implies an higher authority to whom, or to which, one is obligated to give a response.
Conclusion:
The ONLY prerequisite for responsibility is a Lawgiver and His Law. Free will (in the synergistic sense) has NOTHING to do with responsibility.
Simple enough?
R1K2G3 1 month ago
@R1K2G3 Yes, if we obscure our meanings enough in confusing language, we can justify whatever we want.
Perhaps your definition of responsibility means something to you, but it doesn't seem to capture anything for me. Let's start over:
Responsibility is the requirement that one act in a certain manner.
What sense does it make to require something if it is categorically impossible? I might as well hold my computer monitor responsible for making me a sandwich (and then damn it to Hell).
cda1117 1 month ago
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@cda1117 Was the definition of responsibility that I provided too confusing for you?
Your definition: "Responsibility is the requirement that one act in a certain manner."
Yep, God requires His creatures 'act in a certain manner', and this with regard to His Law.
You asked, "What sense does it make to require something if it is categorically impossible?" Impossible commands (imperatives) are given by God so that we may recognize our own impotence to please God.
Simple enough?
R1K2G3 1 month ago
Brother Walls doesn't understand that all men are not sheep, but he's spot on about the inconsistency of the ersatz sovereign grace theology of D A Carson. These Neo-Cals like Carson and Piper want to tell men that God loves them but without the candor of telling them that, in their theology, God sends a lot of people he loves straight to hell. The truth is God does not love all men as is manifest by Rom 9:13, Ps 10:3, Ps 11:5, etc. Walls, Carson and Piper all get this wrong.
theearstohear 2 months ago
The Good Shepherd finds his sheep (John 10:11) and some are not his sheep (John 10:26). Brother Walls seems to think that the whole world are sheep. Until he gets rid of that false doctrine his theology will the be train wreck he demonstrates it to be. Moreover, John Piper's theology is equally bad - perhaps the most inconsistent and unstable form of "Calvinism" that I have encountered - and that's saying something.
theearstohear 2 months ago
For some reason, Arminians think that we have to have free will to be responsible to God - This is not the case at all; for we are his creation and he is our creator, we are always responsible to him no matter what, he is never answerable to anyone. No matter what God does, it is permissible, because he himself defines what is permissible; nothing is above God.
CentaurusEditing 3 months ago
@CentaurusEditing
"No matter what God does, it is permissible, because he himself defines what is permissible; nothing is above God."
Well said.
The most frustrating thing about discussion theology with Arminians is their common practice of judging God's actions by their own standards of justice and fairness.
Bill244888 2 months ago
I'm assuming this preacher has never read Romans 8:28-35??
Or for that matter the book of Genesis where God chooses Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, passes over the Israelites and does not save the Egyptians etc etc.
This guy seems very happy to question and ridicule ideas that are Bible based and therefore ends up questioning God. Piper is right, at the end of the day God is always just. Believing that to be true with all its implications is what FAITH is.
MillionToOne2011 3 months ago
@MillionToOne2011 burn :) also ..... CHEESE!!! :)
Pstreetify 3 months ago
It seems to me that the Calvinist does not understand the propisition of free will as the Arminian does not understand the points of tulip, making a twisted, and tangled mess of debate, hurling scriptures around like a soldier would a lance at the enemy. I was raised to believe that the bible was a message of hope to a lost and dieing world. Where is this blessed hope for the sinsick soul? Where is the beackon of light in a dark world? Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
tiredoldcrow 3 months ago
@tiredoldcrow
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Mark 1:14-15
"Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
We must repent, or turn from our sin in submission to Christ and place our faith in His completed work on the cross as payment in full for our sin.
BTW - these are not things we can muster up on our own, but gifts from God.
Bill244888 3 months ago
The problem these Arminians have is believing that everyone ever born on Earth is a "Child of God"...
Rom 8:14 Paul says that those that are lead by the spirit of God are the children of God.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Obviously meaning that those who aren't lead by the spirit of God, or those who haven't received Jesus, ARE NOT the children of God they're God-hating sinners in rebellion.
EverydayRevival 3 months ago
While I am not a big fan of John Piper, what he describes concerning his sons is the same thing Jesus calls for in
Luke 14:26
"“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."
Suppose Mr. Walls were to arrive in heaven and learn that John Calvin's teachings were actually true and his children weren't elect, would he curse God?
Bill244888 3 months ago
So our understanding of God must pass through the filter of wether we deem His actions as acceptable or not?
WRONG ANSWER!
Jer. 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
Isa. 55:8-9
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Bill244888 3 months ago
Matt. 23:37
"“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!"
If it is read in COTEXT it is easily understood as some of the closing remarks in a long rebuke against the Jewish leaders of Christ's day.
A completely different meaning than this guy gives it.
Bill244888 3 months ago
@Bill244888 Amen Bill, good answer. The Jewish leaders of Jerusalem weren't more powerful than Christ, and certainly couldn't overcome Him in "trying" to save anyone. The Lord was condemning those stiff-necked hypocrites who couldn't see or know God because of all their religion.
EverydayRevival 3 months ago
@EverydayRevival
This is another example of why cherry picking verses and lazy interpretation is so harmful
Bill244888 3 months ago
ITS FUNNY HOW HE KKEPS SAYING THAT GOD PASSES OVER HIS CHILDREN FOR DAMNATION HAHAHA. I WONDER WHAT MAKES HIM THINK THAT EVERYONE IS HIS CHILDREN AND THEN HE USES THAT GOD LEAVES THE 99 SHEEP FOR 1 SHEEP THAT GOT LOST HAHA THAT SHEEP WAS PART OF THAT FLOCK AND THERE FOR THE FATHER WENT TO GET IT BACK
gtxss 4 months ago
Sure God elects, has the right to choose whom he will but the bible tells us who God has chosen. "Whosoever will" are the chosen. Not "whosoever won't". Now when all stand before the judgment and Nero says well, why are you forgiving Peter there who is admittingly a sinner? God says, I will have mercy on whom I will.
tiredoldcrow 4 months ago
@tiredoldcrow Whosoever will believe... that's just it... no one will believe, not on their own anyway, because man's heart is wicked and in love with his evil deeds. The natural man is at enmity with God (which means he is God's ENEMY) sinners hate God and His Law.
It's not whosoever will decide, or whosoever will choose to better his estate here on earth or hereafter. Think about it why would a sinner who loves his sin "choose" to leave it and Love a God that he hates???
Faith is a gift.
EverydayRevival 3 months ago
@EverydayRevival Yes, all should agree to the sinful nature of man but at the hearing of the gospel some will turn to the Lord, an act of the will. Gospel, Holy spirit travel togeather convincing man of sin, man is inclined to sin untill the day he dies but after the light of the word may choose conformation to the will of God, or not. Thanks for response and hope that you and yours had a fine thanksgiving day.
tiredoldcrow 3 months ago
"There is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents"
Do you really believe that they are rejoicing over a man's decision?
They are rejoicing and glorifying God for His mighty work in saving spiritually dead sinners!
Bill244888 4 months ago
@Bill244888 Exactly!!! God is glorified by every sinner's repentance because it is something that no man could or would do on his own. Every time someone repents and believes the Gospel it is a miracle akin to that of raising someone from the dead, a spiritual resurrection and the angels rejoice in Heaven because it is God that conquers the sinful nature of man and changes his heart so that he can know and love the God that created him.
EverydayRevival 3 months ago
@EverydayRevival
"Exactly!!! God is glorified by every sinner's repentance because it is something that no man could or would do on his own."
It's really not that I enjoy arguing, it's just that Arminianism improperly elevates man in both importance and ability and robs God of the proper glory He is due in saving men.
BTW - I haven't seen you posting in a while. Good to hear from you again!
Bill244888 3 months ago
This video is the essence of pride and arrogance!
How dare a mere man put the character and motives of God on trial, using nothing more than sin tainted human emotions and logic as the ruling authority for his argument.
READ ROMANS CHAPTER 8 & 9!
Why did God not spare the Egyptians as well as the Jews?
Bill244888 4 months ago
Jajaja, true. it is. My mistake. Even so using another person to speak is wrong, even on debate it should read the bible. not John Pipers books.
jorgemacsparrow 5 months ago
Jajaja, how funny this preacher is!!, instead of using John Piper to make a message he should use the bible to preach Arminianism. He call him self a Christian but doesn't accept calvinist as John Wesley once did. He preaches a God of love but insults and ridicules his christian brother just to justify his own believes instead of appointing the bible. He doesn't know who God is. The issue is not what man is worth is who God is. He is the center of the universe, not man.
jorgemacsparrow 5 months ago
@jorgemacsparrow Are you serious?
ThePristineFaith 5 months ago
@ThePristineFaith
So you are you saying man should be the center of the universe? or maybe that it is ok for christians to attack one another? or is it ok to preach something not using the bible?
I am a calvinist attending to a arminian church, and i love my brothers even if i don't always agree with some preaching. It is not about calvinism or arminianism, it is all about the glory of God. So... yup, very serious. Please tell me what you think.
jorgemacsparrow 5 months ago
@jorgemacsparrow Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this video of a debate, not a sermon?
Kenjuu 5 months ago
@jorgemacsparrow Dude, this is a debate. Get over your self-righteousness and, um, repent. If you're a Calvinist, you might need to look the word "repent" up.
TeaPartier22 1 month ago 2
Just take out the doctrine of eternal damnation and insert universal reconciliation and the compatibilist position becomes unassailable in its consistency.
jacksta111 5 months ago
my only issue with this is he keeps saying "freedom"... No man is absolutely free. God is the only, totally free one. We are in bondage to a will. Either a will of sin, or a will of the Spirit.
dsullfbc 6 months ago
Wow, I would have loved to see the rebuttal on this diatribe! That was a total dawgs breakfast. LOL.
Haukman66 6 months ago
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To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
motibi 6 months ago
Unlike Piper, Walls has power whether his sons will go to heaven or not.
Of course, GOD has no power to change the hearts of Walls' sons. That would not be Gentleman-like on the part of God. But Walls can.
RomansGalatians 6 months ago
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. LK 15:7
Wall concluded at 4:56 "He doesn't leave the one."
No, Jesus leaves the 99!
RomansGalatians 6 months ago
@446165 Indeed, the fallacious assertion of the "universal Fatherhood of God" is common among synergists. They don't seem to recognize that only believers are children...and that by adoption. In other words, we as believers were not born children of God, but children of wrath (and, one might say, children of the wicked one). To be adopted as children by the Father, one must be born again [from above] (Jn.3:3).
Indeed, Dr. Walls makes a number of errors in his presentation.
rkg62976 6 months ago
this dude is taking Piper totally out of context...in Piper's book "Christian Hedonism" he is not saying that all men (and women) glorify God when they are most satisfied in Him, but rather HIS CHILDREN...the lecturer is not being precise at all!!
bull1504 7 months ago
Apparently this guy Walls has never read Romans 9. God left Esau to his sins. He chose Jacob and He DID passover Esau. Why did Walls mention this when it totally destroys the point he was making?
7:01 "Why does He need to do that?" WHO ARE YOU O MAN THAT REPLIES AGAINST GOD? Why don't you, puny MAN Walls, complain to God that His Angel of death passed over Israel but NOT the Egyptians! Complain to God that He let the Amorites ripen themselves for judgment while sending no prophet!! (Gen 15:16)
patrckhh20 7 months ago
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patrckhh20 7 months ago
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@patrckhh20 I mean why did he NOT mention that.
patrckhh20 7 months ago
@patrckhh20 You've completely wretched Romans 9 out of context. The issue that Paul is addressing concerns HOW there could even be a division within Israel, when God made promises to the seed of Abraham. He is not addressing WHY there is a division. God has the right to choose for service anyone HE pleases (Isaac, Jacob, etc.), without promising salvation. Salvation is only obtained through faith. Friend, you need to take off your Calvinist glasses and approach the Scripture objectively.
ThePristineFaith 7 months ago
@ThePristineFaith Seems that you made my case for me. Some are only physical descendants of Israel, and some are the true spiritual people of God. And Paul explains this division by nothing else than God's free choice. Before they were born, not having done any good or evil, that GOD'S PURPOSE according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM THAT CALLS. THAT is why they are not all Israel that are of Israel.
Take off your Arminian glasses and realize GOD has free will, not us.
patrckhh20 7 months ago 3
@patrckhh20 Yes, God has free will to choose whom He wants (His Election) for his service without an accompanying promise of salvation.
ThePristineFaith 7 months ago
@ThePristineFaith I am just curious how you came to the conclusion that Romans 9 is about service as opposed to salvation? Paul clearly speaks of the salvation of the Jews in the beginning which gives us the context of this chapter?
daboomerang319 6 months ago
@patrckhh20 god is choosing the line from which christ will come. jacob and esau is speaking of the nations that spring forth from each. next your gen 15:14-16 quote is out of context where god's judgement on egypt is fulfilling the prophecy of 14-16. to avoid condemnation all a nation has to do is abide by noah's covenant. next those killed in egypt/amorites will be individually judged, for it is by faith that you can please god, everybody dies, some sooner than others.
RedLetterChristian 5 months ago
@RedLetterChristian How is God choosing a nation explaining the fact that "they are not all Israel which of Israel?" And why isn't the whole seed of Abraham counted as his children?
My point remains, God said their iniquity was not yet full, and He let them fill it up for 400yrs without sending any prophet. (cf Mat 23:32, Rom 9:22).
Gen 15:14 "that NATION will I judge." Amazing, when God says He judges a nation, you make it personal, and when He chooses individuals, you make it national!
patrckhh20 5 months ago
@patrckhh20 You misread both Calvin and Romans 9.
Jacob was loved and Esau was hated, before any of them had done anything, good or bad... that is, Unconditional Election.
This means (according to Calvin's understanding of Romans 9) that Esau was proactively condemned by God (he was thus "hated"), without regard to his sin or goodness.
Calvinism (and Calvin himself) says that both Election to Salvation and Election to Reprobation are an Unchanging, Unconditional, Eternal Decree.
sketchbook1 4 months ago
@patrckhh20 Ever hear of this thing called "Romans 10 and 11"?
TeaPartier22 1 week ago
People of themselves are nothing but sin and evil. They have no ability of themselves to be Christians. The only man who is a Christian is the man whom God has made a Christian. And those whom God has made Christians will remain Christians for a regenerate man cannot become an unregenerate man.
rbaxter119 7 months ago
Free will !!
vermeer991 8 months ago
The problem with this Arminians argument is,not all people are God's children.God would never send His child to Hell,but He would send Satan's child to Hell.
CBALLEN 8 months ago
@CBALLEN Is55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
If God wanted everyone saved then this scripture is a lie,but if God wanted His word to save His elect and damn the goats,then it is 100% true.
CBALLEN 8 months ago
8:00 - 8:44
"Now explain that to me on Calvinist terms.."
But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (Luke 12:48)
see also how Jesus explains The Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13:10-15 “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given."
TheTribeChief 9 months ago
it seems to me that many calvinists identify arminiansim with pelagianism. these two are not the same at all.
that faith preceedes regeneration does not remove the initiative from God, for what preceeded faith? the personal encounter with the Holy Spirit. it is THIS whereby we have the means to respond or not. but this the calvinsts ignore
Strefanasha 9 months ago
this first point i take as absolutely axiomatic. when i denied free will i was an atheist. i am convinced these two go together. i am now an arminian
piper a calvinist? how utterly vicious that he would adore god who refused to save people just for the hell of it, even piper's own sons.
such a being is satan.
i regard pipers talk about glorifying god in satisfaction as empty flummery. notbecause it is false but because of piper's own preaching
Strefanasha 9 months ago
How can one read John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."Look at the word "even" & look at the word "nor of the will of man". Regeneration is done by God not us! Then we believe and repent (which is our conversion experience). I was an Arminian, not any more! I am saved by his grace& not from anythg insde me
davidanful 9 months ago
The debate comes down to this in my opinion: A number of verses can be used as a starting point for Calvinism and a lot of the verses can be used for a starting point for Arminianism. It comes down to which doctrine better explains the verses that do not seem to support their point of view, and I believe that Calvin failed to to do this especially when it comes to limited atonement, but Calvinists do not, but I will still see them in glory.
Mostatekid12 10 months ago
I'm sorry His first comment shows He's not been reading His Bible. Romans 9...
FadeakaTheo 10 months ago
"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" Romans 9:21
nameless007 10 months ago
@ArminianMorningTea Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any free copies of this debate. I know that Lane Chaplin has a ten minute video of Bruce Ware speaking (same debate). You might want to check ebay or amazon, as the debate isn't very expensive from what I recall.
ThePristineFaith 11 months ago
@ArminianMorningTea If you look under the summary of the video you can see the link to the apologetics group. It should still be on their website. Let me know if you have any problems.
ThePristineFaith 11 months ago
Is this assumption correct, Judas was predestined to betray Jesus? Those that believe in predestaination, have to believe that, correct?
geico1975 11 months ago
@geico1975 You are correct. God first determined that Judas accept Jesus and the call to discipleship. Then God pulled a 180 and determined that Judas betray His Son. These are the cold hard facts of determinism.
ThePristineFaith 11 months ago
@ThePristineFaith
I suspect, it is impossible for one to know whether or not they are predestined to be saved? For instance, if I wanted to be saved, but I am determined; by God, not to be saved, then it would be in vain to attempt salvation? Therefore, if this is true, then the notion that Jesus died for ALL person's salvation is false. The truth would be, that Jesus died for all persons CHOOSEN for salvation, correct?
geico1975 11 months ago
@geico1975 Yes, the logical outworking of Calvinism is that Jesus died only for those whom he chose in eternity past for salvation. If one was not chosen, then Jesus didn't die for them. No one can possibly no if they are of the elect (well, maybe if they persevere all the way to the end of their lives can they know). For all they know God chose to enlighten them for a season (and one would believe they are saved), but afterwards God chose to strike them with greater blindness.
ThePristineFaith 11 months ago
@ThePristineFaith Correction: No one can possible *know*.... not *no*...
ThePristineFaith 11 months ago
@ThePristineFaith Actually we do know if we are of the elect because we believe, repent, and have a change of heart. All of these are the signs that we have received the Holy spirit and are born again, as Jesus said we must be to see the kingdom of Heaven. Arminians are the ones who talk about worrying that they'll lose their salvation, especially roman Catholics. We Calvinists know if we are saved that no one can snatch us away from Christ, never!
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
Respond to this video... See my correction above...
ThePristineFaith 11 months ago
@geico1975 you are not going to want to follow Jesus or believe the gospel if you do not have the Holy spirit. Only those chosen by the Father and given to the Son are going to hear and believe the gospel. As Jesus told the unbelieving Jews in John chap.8, verses 41 thru 47. Only those saved by the blood of Christ hear His voice. Jesus calls the others the devil's children. Believing is a result of God converting you at your appointed time. You know you are saved when you believe.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
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shteve77 11 months ago
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shteve77 11 months ago
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shteve77 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@DougCameraMan You keep on insisting that people are given the Holy Spirit before they have believed the Holy Spirit is given AFTER they believe. This is clear from scripture. I quoted you those two verses. Should you just ignore them? “Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or BY BELIEVING”, “Having BELIEVED, you were marked …with….the promised Holy Spirit”
shteve77 11 months ago
@geico1975 false assumptions much?
tercelkisor 11 months ago
@geico1975 yes, the scripture says Christ knew ahead of time that Judas Iscariot was going to betray him.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
The Calvinist has Jesus saving some sinners for all of their sins; past, present and future, there is no possibility that those for whom Christ died could ever be lost according to the doctrine of grace. The Arminian has a problem in that he says Christ died for everyone but only those who actually believe in him get the benefit of christ's death and eternal life. So for the Arminian, the one sin that Christ did not die for on the cross is unbelief, since unbelief leads one to Hell.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Believing is the means by which we are saved. "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned..."Jn3
If Christ died only for the elect and paid for every single one of their sins (including unbelief) then according to your logic there would be no need for the elect to believe anything. They would automatically be saved because all their sins are paid for, regardless of if they believe or not. We both know, only those who believe are saved.
shteve77 11 months ago
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DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@shteve77 stands condemned already, as in from the foundation of the world. The difference is you believe the saved are saved because they make a good decision to believe that Christ saved them. I believe we are saved because God has chosen us, the elect, and given us to the Son who paid for our sins at the cross. You think we're saved because we believe. I think we' believe because we're saved and given the gift of faith.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan You're wrong to say that we believe because we are saved. Scripture says we have life as a result of believing. "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that BY BELIEVING WE MAY HAVE LIFE in his name."Jn20:31
If Christ paid for all the sins of the elect on the cross and that automatically made them saved then there would be no need for them to believe, but they must believe to have life and are dead in their sins until they believe
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 You would not believe if you did not have the Holy Spirit and have been reborn. That is the difference between believers and those who don't. We are all dead, not just merely sick, until the Holy Spirit comes into us and convicts us of our sins and gives us the gift of faith. If God didn't come into us to change our stone hearts to flesh then we never would.
"To all who were appointed to eternal life believed". It's cause and effect. God causes our faith.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan You don't actually believe what the Bible says. We are dead until we believe. We have life only after we believe. John20:31 says so. There is no such thing as a regenerated, born again person who hasn't believed and is still dead in their sins.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 We have eternal life because the Father chose us and gave us to Christ to save. Only those given to Christ and saved at the cross will believe. Believing is a result of our being chosen and receiving the Holy Spirit and saved. It all gets down to who chose who. Did God choose the saved, or do we choose ourselves? Some people in error think that Jesus only made salvation POSSIBLE, that we must do something additional (believe) to what he did at the cross to complete it. That's wrong
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan You are saying that we are in fact saved before we believe. John20:31 says "that by believing you may have life in His Name". We are dead in our sins until we believe. Life is given AFTER we believe, not before. If what you teach is true, there would be no need for the elect to hear the gospel or believe it, they would simply be saved regardless.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 You said "that by believing...". John 20:31 doesn't say "by believing". If it said "by believing" it would support what your idea that by believing we are saved. But it doesn't say BY believing. "These are written that you may believe..." By believing we can know that we are saved. It is the evidence. It is our proof, but it is not what causes our salvation. Our salvation is accomplished by the Father, Son and Holy spirit, all working together.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Here it is, I copied and pasted it directly from the NIV online Bible. "and that BY BELIEVING you may have life". Or the ESV "and that BY BELIEVING you may have life".
As you can see it DOES say BY BELIEVING, so I am glad you now concede that we only have life as a result of believing and not before.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 It doesn't say "by believing" in my Bible. If it did, it would help make your case but still, believing is not the cause, it is the result of being chosen and receiving the Holy spirit. I think we agree on the main thing, that Christ died for our eternal life.... we just disagree on who chose who. So lets agree to disagree on the technicalities which the truth will be revealed in time. I enjoyed our little debate but I must move on now.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan I'm pretty sure that if your Bible doesn't use the exact words "by believing" it says something that means the same. I quoted you from 2 main stream translations that do say "BY BELIEVING" NIV & ESV.
It is BY BELIEVING we have life. We are dead until we believe. "these are written that you may believe....and that BY BELIEVING you may have life". It's written in black and white.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 my Bible says "...and that believing you may have life in his name". But these are just various translations, they can vary between them. Our difference is not a word or two, it's that you believe people are saved because they choose by their own free will to believe and that saves them. We believe that believing is a result of the Holy Spirit coming to live in us as Christ's people. His sheep; the many that He died to save.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan What do you actually think "and that believing you may have life" actually means? It means exactly the same thing that the NIV & ESV say. It means that believing gives you life.
It's quite clear from scripture. "Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that BY BELIEVING you may have LIFE in his name."Jn20:31
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 Believing is for us the evidence, well part of the evidence, that we are changed people, born of the Holy Spirit and have a new heart of flesh instead of one of stone. Confessing christ as Lord and savior is how we know we are saved. But it is not why we are saved. Do you understand?
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan No one has the Holy Spirit living in them until they believe.
"Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or BY BELIEVING what you heard?"Gal3:2
"Having BELIEVED, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit"Eph1:13
shteve77 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan The Philippian jailer asked "What must I do to be saved. Paul and Silas didn't say "nothing, maybe God has elected you". They said "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved". We cross over from death to life WHEN we believe. Not before. What you are saying mean that a person can be saved even if they haven't believed the Gospel yet. It is when we believe we have life.
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who BELIEVES in me will LIVE"Jn11:25. Believing results in life.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 Jesus told Nicodemus that one cannot see the kingdom of Heaven unless he is born again.- John chapter 3.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan It is God who makes men born again, and who does He do this for? Scripture tells us. "Yet to all who RECEIVED him, to those who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become children of God"Jn1:12
God promises that all who believe on Him, He will do something for them. He will make them born again. Scripture is quite clear we have life as a result of believing. There is no such thing as a born again, regenerated person who hasn't believed.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 You're wrong. When Nicodemus wondered how he could see the kingdom of Heaven Jesus didn't tell him he needed to believe; no, he told him one cannot see the kingdom of Heaven unless one is born again. Then he spoke of it being like the wind, no one knows from where it comes or goes, like with the Spirit. God chose those who would receive the Holy Spirit before the foundation of the world, in eternity, and it is at our appointed times that we receive him and THEN believe and repent.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Of course Jesus told Nicodemus he had to believe. Nicodemus asked "how can this be" and then Jesus still talking to Nicodemus said "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone WHO BELIEVES in him may have eternal life.
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 Nicodemus asked Jesus but how can a man be born again, can he re-enter his mother's womb? Jesus told him it was a spiritual birth. We agree that we are saved if we believe, we just differ on why they believe. You say it's their free will choice, I say it's when we're born again and receive the Holy spirit that we believe, have faith in Christ, and repent.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan You are clearly wrong. Scripture is very clear that we receieve the Holy Spirit AFTER we believe. Please explain what those two verse I quoted are actually saying if I am wrong. "Having BELIEVED, you were marked in him with a seal....Holy Spirit"Ephesians1:13 ,"Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or BY BELIEVING what you heard?"Galations3:2
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 You assume the words to fit your belief. Jesus said that no man can come to him unless the Father draws him to Jesus. It's the Holy Spirit that in the person that draws him to Christ. People without the Holy Spirit are not drawn to Christ. Speaking of Ephesians, Paul wrote: "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus to himself, according to HIS will".
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Jesus also said "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself."Jn12:32, and The Holy Spirit "will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment"Jn16:8.
.
It is clear from those two verses I quoted that the Holy Spirit is given AFTER someone believes. (Ep1:13,Gal3:2) If they don't teach that then please explain to me what those two verses are actually saying?
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 my Bible says "will draw all peoples to me".... people from all nations. We know that not all people are drawn to Christ, in fact, more people are not drawn than are, so if he meant 'All people" then it hasn't happened. I don't think he meant all people, if he did he meant all of HIS people; his flock, his sheep, his bride, fellow heirs of the kingdom. He didn't mean those people he called "the devil's children" - John 8;44.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan The KJV and the ESV say "all people", the NIV says "all men". Actually the original simply say "pas". "All". It doesn't say men or people or peoples. The original literally says "and I if I be lifted up from the Earth, ALL will draw to myself."
The problem is that you assume if someone is drawn they will come. They could not have come unless they were drawn, but the drawing doesn't mean they will definitley come.
shteve77 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan The fact remains that no-one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit until they believe, and no who has no believed has life. There are many, many scriptures that say the same thing.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 Acts 2:38 Peter does say repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost. The Father has already made the chosen elect willing to come to Christ and to receive the Holy ghost. However you want to look at it, it's God who has done the choosing and brings Christ's people to repentance and faith.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan You previously said that it was the Holy Spirit inside the person that makes them believe. What I have been saying is that a person receives the Holy Spirit as a result of believing. That is what scripture says. Yes, God choose men to be saved but what I dispute is that He only wants some to be saved. There are many verses that indicate He wants all to be saved. If God does the choosing then He must change men against their will and therefore grace must be Irresistible, but..cont.
shteve77 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Eze18:23 says "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?"
If Irresistible Grace is true and God really would prefer the wicked repent and live then He would make them repent and live. The fact that most of them perish in their sins shows that either, Grace is not Irresistible, or that God lied when He says that He would prefer the wicked to repent and live.
shteve77 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Or Acts7:51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"
The Holy Spirit wanted the people to believe the gospel but they resisted and persecuted God's messengers as their Fathers had done. Irresistible grace is not true.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 the elect children of God do not resist; the non-elect children of Satan always resist.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Clearly the people resisted the Holy Spirit. That's what scripture says. Obviously the Holy Spirit wanted the people to do something but they wouldn't. If the Holy Spirit didn't want these people to believe the message that the apostles were bringing then the people weren't restisting the Holy Spirit at all but doing exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted. The Holy Spirit wanted them to obey the message the apostles were telling them, the people resisted.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 or it may have appeared that the non-believers were resisting the Holy Spirit by their behavior, the writer's perception of what he saw. I don't know, but the elect receive irresistible grace and "at their appointed time they believed".
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan If grace was Irresistible then the people that Jesus wept for in Mat23:37, saying "How often I have longed to gather you", would have come. He says they were not willing. If Irresistible Grace is true then Christ lied, becuase He didn't really want to gather the people to Him at all.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 I've heard that one before from Arminians. That and John 3:16 seem to be favorites. I don't think Jesus ever lied, first off. True, they were not willing, as all non-believers are not willing, only the chosen are willing. That the Father chose some, and not all, to be saved doesn't lessen Jesus' pity for those who perish in their sins, right? No one is saying men don't have free will, Calvinists just say men are slaves to the natures, whether evil or righteous.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Have you ever read the verse? Jesus says "how often I have LONGED to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."
But you actually believe Jesus didn't want them to come. The only reason in the mind of the Calvinist as to why Jesus didn't get what He says He LONGED for was because Jesus choice not to irresistibly draw them. How could anyone really believe Jesus longed for them when He doesn't want them to come?
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 I believe it can be viewed as consistent with the doctrine of grace; unconditional election & limited atonement. You remember, the Father gave the elect to the Son to save? Perhaps the Father reveals things to the Son as time passes while he preached on Earth. Jesus may not have known exactly who was chosen when he said this, just as you and I don't. He preached to all as he saw them. Some believed, repented their sins, had faith but their believing was predestined.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan You are completely missing the point. You believe that those that God wants to be saved will be saved, He will make them come to His Son. Here Jesus says He has LONGED for these people to come to Him. Clearly Jesus expresses that He wants these people saved, He has longed for them to be saved, but they aren't. Do you really believe that Jesus wanted these people to come to Him, but chose not to save them when He could have?
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 The Father chose the saved. Jesus saves all that the Father gives him. It sounds like Jesus preached as if he didn't know who was chosen to come to him, at least not at the time he said this.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus and God want the same thing. Jesus says that He longed to save these people. Are you seriously telling me that Jesus longed to save them but chose not too?
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 We are chosen for salvation before we believe, yes. We receive eternal life when the Holy spirit comes to live in us, at our appointed time. God has provided the means for his elect to hear the gospel and to believe it.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@shteve77
Okay, I think I'm getting this, when you say, "Only those who believe are saved." Then, only the believers are determined to be saved? Well, I know this is impossible, but what would happen if all people started to believe? That means all people are predestained to be saved, right?
I don't mind saying this, while I think it is really an interesting topic, it can indeeed get confusing. I'm taking a class in college and weve been talking about free will v. predestination.
geico1975 11 months ago
@geico1975 Sorry friend, could you re-state your question? I'm not sure what you are asking me?
By they way, for what it's worth I don't believe Judas was predestined to betray Christ at all. The fact that God knew what Judas would choose to do doesn't mean Judas had no choice.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77
Yeah, I was basically concluding that if all people decided to believe and turn to Jesus, then all people would have been predestained to believe and be saved.
However, I understand that for all people to believe would be far-fetched.
geico1975 11 months ago
@geico1975 God certainly knows who will believe the Gospel but I don't believe that means they were Pre-Destined by God to believe. Actually Rom8:29 makes it clear that for those that God knew would believe the Gospel. These God has pre-destined to become like Christ in character. "For those God foreknew he also predestined TO BE CONFORMED to the likeness of his Son".
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 romans 8:29 desn't say that those God knew who would believe and chose on that basis. It says God foreknew us and predestined us. God knew us, which is another way of saying that God loved us....not that he based his choice on anything good or bad about us because we were all sinners he chose to save. Paul makes it clear in Romans that we are chosen in spite of being bad.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan It says those who God foreknew. Why would God need to use His foreknowledge to know that He already had elected us? "Those that God foreknew He has predestined.." But you didn't finish the verse. Predestined to salvation? It doesn't say that it says "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son"!
shteve77 11 months ago
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shteve77 11 months ago
Calvinism has to be confronted. It is splitting healthy churches all around. I am too busy doing THE WORK to get pulled into this rathole debate. But when it rears it's head at my church I feel I have to stand against it.
wheelkick 11 months ago
the Arminian's problem with the gospel is that they believe that "fairness"is based on their view of it, not God's view. They want doctrine that fits in with their humanistic thinking and so they twist verses saying that Jesus saved all men, the whole world, etc. They can't comprehend that a righteous and fair God would actually choose to save some but not everyone. But Jesus made it clear that not all people were his sheep. Only his sheep hear his voice and follow him. The others can't.
DougCameraMan 1 year ago
@DougCameraMan That's pretty funny, a Calvinist saying that non Calvinists 'twist' scripture and try to say Jesus came to save all men or the whole world...... Let's see what scripture says without 'twisting' anything.
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for EVERYONE." Hebrews 2:9
shteve77 11 months ago
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shteve77 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan...."(and for this we labour and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior OF ALL MEN, and especially of those WHO BELIEVE." 1 Tim 4:10
"This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men." 1 Timothy 2:1-5
shteve77 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Saviour of the world" 1 John 4:14
"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to ALL MEN, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN, resulting in justification of life." Romans5:18
shteve77 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Acts7:51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"
The Holy Spirit wanted the people to believe the gospel but they resisted and persecuted God's messengers as their Fathers had done. Irresistible grace is a false doctrine.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 Sure, the Devil's children (John 8:44) resist the Holy Spirit. But God's children don't. Christ Jesus speaking to those Jews who mocked him and didn't believe said: "But you do not believe, why? Because you are NOT MY Sheep. MY sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me, and I give them eternal life. .." - John 10: 25 - 30. His sheep follow him, the Devil's children don't. Not all people are God's children. Jesus said it and I believe it!
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." If they did belong to Christ they would have listened and followed Him and believed. They don't. The Bible doesn't contradict itself and I quoted 6 verses showing that Christ died for all men. You didn't comment on any of them???
So the Holy Spirit wanted them people to do something but they wouldn't, what was it? If the Holy Spirit didn't want them to believe then they were doing what He wanted and not resisting.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 so you agree that there are Christ's sheep and those who are not his sheep, correct? We both agree to that, yet you say that Christ died for "all men" so that would mean he died for some that are not his sheep, correct? That would contradict the majority of other verses in the scriptures that say otherwise, including the words spoken by Jesus himself. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives his life for the sheep" - John 10:11. Why did he say "sheep" instead of everyone?
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan You will notice that Christ says He laid for His life for "the sheep". There is a specific group of people that He calls "His sheep". They are the ones who hear His voice and follow Him. The others are also sheep, just not "His sheep" which is consistent with the other verses that I quoted.
As for Acts7 it is clear that the Holy Spirit wanted the people to do something but they resisted.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 The other sheep are also his, but "not of this fold". They also hear his voice...and there will be one flock and one shepherd. - John 10:14 - 16. But that is not to say that ALL people are his sheep... that he saves. Jesus clearly says in the gospel of John that some of the people he was speaking to were "children of the devil", not his sheep, and they could NOT hear him. He never says that he is dying for the children of the devil he was reprimanding in John 8:44.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan There are those that He says are "His sheep". The include all the ones who will come to believe. They are described as "His sheep". But it doesn't say He lay down His life for "His sheep", it says "The sheep".
You only seem to want to discuss the one verse from John10. What about those 6 verses I quoted, ie, Christ "tasted death for everyone", or Act7:51?
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 you're right, John chap. 10, verse 15 says "the sheep" not "my sheep", but the next verse clarifies whose sheep they are when Jesus continues, "and other sheep I Have...." So the sheep he is speaking of in verse 15 are part of the other sheep that HE HAS in verse 16, and then in verse 17 he says "I lay down my life". For who? His sheep! He says in another verse that he prays for those the Father has given to him, but NOT for the world. Would he die for those he wouldn't pray for?
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Nowhere does Jesus say He lays down His life for "His sheep". He says "The sheep". The ones who hear His voice and follow Him, He identifies as "His sheep". He also says "I have other sheep", but these too are identified as "His sheep".
Those other 6 verses I gave (which you haven't commented on) show that Jesus did in fact give His life for "all men". You haven't commented on any of them. You only seem to discuss John 10?
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 "MY sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me, and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand". - John10:27 & 28. Sounds very clear to me that Jesus said HIS sheep, he sure wasn't talking about the Devil's sheep that he gives eternal life to. Why does anyone have eternal life? Because Jesus gave his life on the cross to save us. He said clearly that he was giving his life for HIS sheep in John 10: 27 & 28.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan Show me anywhere that Jesus says He laid down His life for "His sheep"? He says "The sheep". Clearly there are some sheep who are His sheep but He said He died for "The sheep".
"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."
Was it only the elect under condemnation? It was all men and the gift is for all men.
shteve77 11 months ago
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@shteve77 "MY sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me, and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand". - John10:27 & 28. Sounds very clear to me that Jesus said HIS sheep, he sure wasn't talking about the Devil's sheep that he gives eternal life to.
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan It is clear in Jn12:47 that many of the world that Christ came to save will be judged for rejecting Him. Is the "world" in this verse (that Jesus says He came to save) only the elect?
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words...."
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 That's a good one. Jesus was saying he did not come to judge the world, not anyone in the world, believer or non-believer. He said the judgment is the Father's, his mission was to save his people in the world...but not to save the entire world otherwise the entire world would be saved. Jesus never failed to accomplish anything he wanted to do. However, Arminians like to give him credit for offering salvation to the non-believers but he just couldn't convince them to accept it!
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan He didn't say He came to "save His people in the world". You have changed the verse. It is quite clear from the context if the verse that the word 'world' includes those who will be judged for rejecting Christ, and Christ says He came to save it [the world]. Why won't you comment on those 6 verses I gave you? Christ "tasted death for everyone", He "wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth:, He "is the saviour of all men, especially those who believe"......
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 - the following verse: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience many will be made righteous." Who hears his words? The saved, believers. He was saying he did not come to judge believers who hear his words, but he says there is a judge for those who do not hear his words
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan The next verse doesn't change the preceeding verse. Clearly the 'many' who were made sinners through Adam's sin is the same group as the "all men" in the preceeding verse. It includes all men without exception. This is this same group that the free gift of salvation through Christ is for.
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No He says He didn't come to judge the world but to save it, and it is clear that there are those who are part of the world He says He came to save, who will be judged for rejecting Christ.
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 Not neccessarily the same group. You're reading that into it but it doesn't say that. Also, the word "many" could mean "all" or it could just mean "many" but not all. But you did pick a good verse to try to stretch. :) Unfortunately, there is so much of the rest of the scripture including the words of Christ himself that refute the idea that he died for all people instead of just the chosen. I suggest you read books by Gordon Clark, Loraine Boettner, R.C. Sproul, James White, AW Pink
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan You are ignoring what the verse actually says. The "many" who were made sinners by Adam's sin are the 'many' who can be made righteous through Christ. 5:18 says just as "ALL" are under condemnation because of Adam's sin, the gift of righteousness through Christ is for "ALL". Actually there is so much of the rest of scripture that also supports this, and I quoted some other verses but you never responded to them.
shteve77 11 months ago
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shteve77 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan...•...."(and for this we labour and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior OF ALL MEN, and especially of those WHO BELIEVE." 1 Tim 4:10
•..."This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men." 1 Timothy 2:1-5
shteve77 11 months ago
@shteve77 Timothy's "ransom for all" gets trumped by Matthew and Mark's "ransom for many".
DougCameraMan 11 months ago
@DougCameraMan One verse trumps another? Really. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. Clearly, the "many" in Rom5:19 are all men without exception, unless you believe not all men are under condemnation because