wiki shaolin monestery - patron saint - at the bottom it talks about the indian monk, and what martial arts historians think of him bringing kung fu to China
End of the day, Boddidharma was the first patriarch of the Shaloin school of Kung Fu as he encouraged Marital arts as a way to increase concentration and focus in meditation.
@jensonpais ...At the end of the day, there's no factual credible proof that Bodhi taught Kung Fu or any other martial arts, period. Therefore, this bullshit false claim, lie, made up story, or whatever else you can call it, is simply no true.
These guys won through strength. Indian guys, especially those involved in traditional fighting are usually strict vegetarians. They also do no weight training at all. You could see the total strength dominance here.
@thesku11s ...Those simple take downs is not about strength, it's all in the technique. Especially in this episode when both Indian guys were much bigger & heavier. You don't have to be really strong to be fast, and clearly both Doug & Jimmy were much faster and had much better techniques. If you can't execute a basic strike or a basic kick to be specific, like that retarded "flying kick" at 7:15, at the level of this kalari practitioners, proves that this art has nothing to do with Kung Fu.
@gbb357 I do think that Kung Fu is not related to Kalari at all. BUt you can't belittle it as it is. I love how Americans tend to love talking about martial arts and stuff like that. Just because they learn stuff at martial arts school they think they are masters at it.
@jensonpais ...As i have stated many times, i respect all form of martial arts. I do no respect Kalaripayatu's claim that they're the "MOTHER OF ALL MARTIAL ARTS", & that Kung Fu came from them. That's just an outright lie & it's a disgusting one. And i certainly don't have respect for the ones that back up this LIE without any credible factual proof. Not only do they back up this LIE, some of them actually claim that it's better. You have to be in denial or lying to say such BULLSHIT, or both.
@jensonpais ...Never did i claim that i'm a master, not even close. But i'm knowledgeable enough to know that the attempt of a flying kick on 7:15 on this video was retarded & that guy have no clue how to execute that kick nor does he know what he's doing, at all. And i also know enough that these Kalari guys were completely outclassed by Doug & Jimmy with simple take downs & simple strikes.
@gbb357 India has been generally a peace loving nation from the ancient times. But there were rulers in South India especially from the region where Kalari originated have been maritime invaders of other South East Asian countries a long time ago. The Cambodian temples have Hindu architecture. SO clearly this art was actually a very effective martial arts. I am more of a Muay Thai fan but respect other martial art forms.
@jensonpais ..In regards to my criticism, go watch this video, "Fighting without weapons, Kalarippayattu, Martial art, Kerala", watch the moves on 0:24 & 1:56. Those kicks on 1:56 are retarded, & that attempt of grappling on 0:24 is even more retarded. Even a beginner in Karate are not taught with those kicks, no Martial Arts teaches those kicks. Having architectural or even religion influences does not equate to martial arts.
wiki shaolin monestery - patron saint - at the bottom it talks about the indian monk, and what martial arts historians think of him bringing kung fu to China
@angryaznman you need to give up being an internet troll. Clearly I can see the hatred for Indians, almost makes me suspect that you are from Pakistan :P
@angryaznman there is no mention about Boddhidharma teaching martial arts to the Chinese monks. But there is a high possibility that whatever he thought was perfected in technique by the Chinese proponents of Kung Fu.
Maybe they practiced Kung Fu long before Boddhi arrived at the Shaolin monastery. But the use of the long stick as a weapon intrigues and clearly shows there is a link.
A Shaloin monk came to India and named the Himalayas on his cross over. come on Bruce Lee or. Exactly give it a break we own America food on every corner and goods in every Walmart. Welcome to New China.
Phillip Zarrilli, a professor at the University of Exeter and one of the few Western authorities on kalari payat, estimates that the art dates back to at least the 12th century CE. The historian Elamkulam Kunjan Pillai attributes the birth of kalari payat to an extended period of warfare between the Cheras and the Cholas in the 11th century CE.
In Sangam, Kalari was not used as a martial act according to Dick Luijendijk, a researcher at the university of Nijmegen. "Kalari" is a centre of learning in Kerala. they taught language, math etc. later on, there were fight schools, thats what "payattu kalari" means.
Qing Scholars of the same time as the preface denounced the author of the preface as "an ignorant village master" because there are MANY historical errors in the preface, including getting who was emperor at the time WRONG. that is like saying Bush is still president.
google this
"A Venerated Forgery: The Daoist Origins of Shaolin’s Famous Yijin Jing Manual By Jim R. McClanahan"
There is ONE source for this bodhi myth. 1800s PREFACE of the yi jin jing has the story of him staring at a rock wall for years then disappearing into thin air leaving behind 2 books. 1 being the yi jin jing, which doesnt teach any fighting. it only teaches stretches and breathing exercises. even the MYTH doesnt say bodhi taught shaolin monks anything.
historians (like Tang Hao, Xu Zhen and Matsuda Ryuchi) have discredited the myth and the preface altogether.
Hold up - I'm confused about this entire argument. Bodhidharma was a Buddhist monk (basically a variant of Hinduism, but essentially the same religion) who went from India to China and exported the martial art form to China, along with Buddhism. Despite what people think, India exported a million things to other parts of Asia. For example, Feng Shui is just another version of Vastu Shastra (is that how you spell it?). I don't understand what the big deal is. Why are people arguing?
@MsM220 nope, historians discredit that myth a long time ago. there is arguments because indians are too desperate to steal credit for something they dont even have the ability to create.
It is very interesting, similar exercises we practice our fighting system is called chun Wing and is highly recognized internationally, I invite you to see my channel, best regards
@TheConlele ...Thanks for joining the club, now you can be the fucking president of useless shithead trolling motherfuckers. Now if you can only add some substance to your post, it'll be more interesting, otherwise, go fuck yourself.
who is regurgitating? me or you? why can not you hit your caPS lock? caps are considered as yelling in the absence of verbal chat.I am off to bed.. time 1.20am..i am sorry if i cant reply.. speak to you after..i guess day after tomorrow..
@shobyms...YOU'RE REGURGITATING THE SAME BULLSHIT STORY OF HOW THE BODHI SAW THE MONKS WERE OUT OF SHAPE SO HE TAUGHT THEM HOW TO EXERCISE AND TAUGHT THEM A RELIGION, AND SOMEHOW FROM THOSE TEACHINGS, KUNG FU MAGICALLY CAME ABOUT BECAUSE TEACHING EXERCISE & RELIGION YOU'LL LEARN KUNG FU. NEXT ONE YOU'RE GOING TO REGURGITATE IS HOW BODHI CAME FROM INDIA & TAUGHT THE MONKS MARTIAL ARTS, BECAUSE BODHI IS THE INVENTOR OF MARTIAL ARTS, HENCE KALARI IS THE "MOTHER OF ALL MARTIAL ARTS"....LMFAO!!!
oh as if I have claimed like you said.. why are you manipulating? you have even argued that it has no relation in the beginning. you have shown no records that shows the relation of chinese wrestling to kung fu.. but you showed something existed before only.It doesnt mean you established something..
@shobyms ..I TOLD YOU BEFORE, AND I'M TELLING YOU AGAIN, I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING OR ESTABLISH ANYTHING, I'M NOT THE ONE MAKING ANY RIDICULOUS CLAIM OR LIE THAT HAS NO CREDIBLE FACTUAL PROOF. I'VE ALREADY DEBUNKED YOUR BULLSHIT LIE, WHAT DON'T YOU PROVE ME WRONG OR PROVE YOUR LIE WITH CREDIBLE FACTUAL PROOFS, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. YOU DON'T HAVE ANY PROOF OR FACTS TO BACK IT UP WITH, PERIOD.
you need to tell me the origin of 18 arhat hands after reading wiki. do not copy paste it to me.prove me that arhat 18 has no relation to India at all. good bye until you come up with a plausible explanation.
@shobyms ..WHEN DID I EVER SAID THAT YOUR 18 ASSHAT HANDS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INDIA, PLEASE SHOW ME I NEVER SAID THAT, BUT YOU CAN'T FUCKING READ AND HAS NO COMPREHENSION ABILITY. UNTIL YOU LEARN HOW TO READ & COMPREHEND, DON'T BOTHER RESPONDING.
so both of you take a rest gbb357 and broulys1729. do your research without bias.I can see you were very biased and mugged some websites or your master( CHinese).... Now you can not even say CHINESE because it is an Indian SANSKRIT word.
By the bye, I would like add an endnote SANSKRIT is the real language of INDIA not HINDI ( a persian mix).However, there are many Indian racists these days like we see in every other countries.watch out..
So, how did they use the term "arhat" and figure 18 ? out of nowhere ? If you agree with this , then you will fail this argument.So i will leave this up to you. get over with your pride..
Do you wanna hear me out ? the word CHINA is even from INDIA..lol
check this out then ---> en.wikipedia*org /wiki/China#Etymology
As I said before, Chana,jhyana or dhyana ( sanskrit word) so CHANese..eventually it evoluted into CHINese.. China belongs to India in one sense..lol..
So, how did they use the term "arhat" and figure 18 ? out of nowhere ? If you agree with this , then you will fail this argument.So i will leave this up to you. get over with your pride..
Do you wanna hear me out ? the word CHINA is even from INDIA..lol
check this out then ---> en.wikipedia*org/wiki/China#Etymology
As I said before, Chana,jhyana or dhyana ( sanskrit word) so CHANese..eventually it evoluted into CHINese.. China belongs to India in one sense..lol..
@shobyms ..SO THE WORD CHINA IS FROM INDIA, SO IN YOUR DELUSIONAL CONCLUSION, THE CHINESE ARE ACTUALLY INDIANS AND EVERYTHING FROM CHINA CAME FROM INDIA. WOW, THIS DESERVES NOT JUST LOL, BUT LMFAO.
@gbb357 it aint my conclusion,yours. i said the word china is an Indian word ..look up wikipedia and etymology. I think your educational standard is below average to understand critically.I havent seen your answer for 18 arhats after. I think you are just a troll for China..sorry I do not waste my time with you anymore. quit responding.over and out.
@shobyms ..OKAY, I DIDN'T DISAGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THE WORD CHINA BEING AN INDIAN WORD AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING WITH OUR DISCUSSION. SO EXACTLY WHAT IS YOUR POINT WITH THAT AND WHY DOES IT MATTER. YOU OBVIOUSLY CANNOT COMPREHEND BECAUSE I ALREADY GAVE YOU AN ANSWER ABOUT YOUR ASSHAT. IT CAME FROM INDIA, SO WHAT, ASSHAT IS NOT THE BASIS OF KUNG FU, BUT YOUR TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND THAT.
@shobyms ..AND WHAT'S UP WITH YOU INSISTING I'M CHINESE,I'M FROM NYC, USA BORN & RAISED & YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE A PERSONAL ISSUE WITH CHINA OR CHINESE PEOPLE. THAT'S FINE WITH ME, I COULD CARE LESS. I TOLD YOU I'M GERMAN DESCENT AND PROUD OF IT BUT I'M AMERICAN FIRST & FOREMOST. MY ONLY MAIN OBJECTIVE IS TO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT KUNG FU & SPREAD THE WORD ABOUT THIS BULLSHIT LIE FROM THE KALARIPAIYATU COMMUNITY. DON'T WANT TO RESPOND, THAT'S FINE WITH ME, MISSION ACCOMPLISH, I WIN. :)
Buddhism started around 5th cen BC.I think China accepted Buddhism after 5th cen AD ( figures may not be accurate but generally accepted). The word CHAN started because of Buddhism in China.Indian word is Chyana/jyana/dhyana..Japan borrowed it from China and made it as ZEN ( from CHAN ), a possible linguistic evolution.thats all. Because CHAN did not exist in any Chinese scripts before Budhism.
secondly, If arhats are not from India or buddhism,then it can be China ( continued)
I guess your previous posts were showing the description of 18 arhat hands but you lied or hid the origin where wikipedia clearly shows it. It may be because you copy pasted it from your supporting website so i guess it brainwashed you to believe so. As a result, you copied the same and acted as if you know about18 lohan or arhat hands. I assume that you have no idea about 18 arhat hands and you are not practising.( i guess)
if 18 arhats are based upon buddhism,how could it exists before buddhism? lol.. no way.. atleast you have to agree that 18 arhat styles started because of buddhism and buddhism is from India.So no India,and then no Buddhism.If no buddhism and then no 18 arhat styles in China.lol.. According to Chinese supporters, 18 arhats are from China but they do not have any proof to establish that point,neither you. do a deductive reading.. only chance according to available history is Bodhi.he taught them
@shobyms ..THERE'S ALREADY MARTIAL ARTS BEFORE 18 ASSHATS & BUDDHISM, THAT'S A FACT. LOL TO YOU TOO. DID THE 18 LOHAN FIST/HANDS DERIVED FROM 18 ASSHATS, LOGIC WOULD SAY YES. SO WHAT, IT DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING OTHER THAN THAT. BUDDHISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY MARTIAL ARTS OTHER THAN THE SHAOLIN MONKS STUDIES IT. AGAIN, IT DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING. JIU JITSU IS DERIVED FROM JUDO, DOES THAT MEAN BRAZILIANS ARE JAPANESE DESCENT, SEE HOW IDIOTIC YOUR LOGIC IS.
show the factual proof that shows the link for kung fu to china.. showing chinese wrestling is not an evidence. neither any modern days scholars because it is not agreed mutually. So bring you evidence that clearly shows how china developed the styles.. If you look at 18 arhats in wiki it shows how it related to India.. It is your Chinese propaganda in order to get credit for your pride..period ..stop yelling,it will get you nowhere but miss a decent conversation.
@shobyms ..I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING, I'M NOT MAKING ANY BULLSHIT CLAIM, AND I ALREADY HAVE SHOWN YOU CREDIBLE FACTUAL PROOFS AND YOU'RE IN DENIAL. BUT I'LL HUMOR YOU ANYWAY, HERE'S MY PROOF. THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES BETWEEN KALARIPAYATU & KUNG FU, NONE IN STRIKES, COORDINATION, TECHNIQUE, AND STYLE. TRY TO DISPROVE THAT, YOU CAN'T. FURTHERMORE, KALARIPAYATU IS SLOPPY, UNCOORDINATED, HAS NO TECHNIQUE & STYLE. THAT'S A FACT.
stop yelling I do not watch youtube 24 hours so I was not here. read it clearly ---> en.wikipedia*org/wiki/Eighteen_Arhats it shows how it is related to India and it shows it has no origin from China.So your allegations are invalid and caps are considered as you cant hold a decent argument.
If you are just a rebellion, there is no need to debunk.As a result, you will less likely accept even if there are 39 accounts to support apart from yin Jin jing.. linguistic evidence prove nothing ? aha much better than your circumstantial anecdotal threads of yellow emperor or so.. I wonder if you have anything that is factual or else i am not surprised. BTW, If you are not Chinese or Indian,then Why bothered? get out of it anyway. we do not reckon Germans or Amercianos in relation to Kung fu
@shobyms ...FIRST OF ALL, KUNG FU IS VERY MUCH RESPECTED & POPULAR IN USA, JUST LIKE EVERYWHERE ELSE ALL OVER THE WORLD. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE CHINESE TO HAVE A PASSION FOR IT, I HAVE MANY FRIENDS & RELATIVES IN GERMANY & PARTS OF SE ASIA THAT ARE JUST AS PASSIONATE ABOUT KUNG FU AS I AM. AGAIN WHAT DOES LINGUISTIC EVIDENCE PROVE, AN INDIAN WORD IS USED IN KUNG FU THEREFORE IT MUST CAME FROM INDIA, ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!
@shobyms .. SO WHERE'S YOUR PROOF AGAIN? AND WHAT'S WITH THE OBSESSION WITH THE YELLOW EMPEROR, THAT WAS JUST PART OF THE ARTICLE, THAT WASN'T A PROOF. THE HISTORY SURROUNDING THE YELLOW EMPEROR IS THE PROOF, IF YOU ONLY KNEW HOW TO COMPREHEND OR READ, YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND. I GAVE YOU FACTUAL PROOF THAT WAS DONE BY ACTUAL HISTORIANS, WTF DO YOU HAVE. OH YEAH, "INDIA IS THE OLDEST CIVILIZATION, THEREFORE IT CREATED HUMANITY, AND KUNG FU". AND "LETS NOT FORGET THAT SOME WORDS ARE USED IN KUNG FU".
@shobyms ..CAN YOU AT LEAST SHOW ME A VIDEO THAT HAS ANY RESEMBLANCES WITH KUNG FU IN REGARDS TO THE TECHNIQUE, EXECUTION, STYLE, COORDINATION, FLUIDITY, ETC. ETC. THROWING YOUR ARMS AND SLAPPING EACH OTHER LIKE GIRLS LIKE IN THIS VIDEO IS NOT GOING TO CUT IT, ESPECIALLY WITH THOSE RETARDED FLYING KICKS AND CHEERLEADER KICKS. I GUARANTEE YOU, YOU CAN'T.
gbb357 I have noticed that you mentioned Chinese Civilization but When I replied for that with Indian Civilization,you ignored it.You were very proud to talk about Chinese Civilization time but forgot or unaware that Indian civilization pre-dates Chinese Civi. I never claimed Kalari is the mother of all martial art but I claimed Shaolin influenced from Kalari. SEE WHO CANT READ PROPERLY NOW
@shobyms ..I never said you mentioned that Kalaripayatu is the mother of all martial arts, but this is my original and only argument, that you have joined in to argue against me. I've said many times repeatedly that if you don't believe the BULLSHIT CLAIM/LIE that kalaripayatu is the mother of all martial arts and that Kung Fu came from it, then we don't have anything to talk about. But you keep coming back trying to say that it did. Yes, i'll say it again, reading is fundamental.
@shobyms ..In regards to the Chinese civilization, i didn't ignored it at all, i just didn't see it right away & didn't get to respond to it. But i'll repeat what i said, you do realize that the Chinese civilization if more than 5000yrs old, & you responded by saying that Indian civilization is older, SO WHAT? Is that another proof of yours that because the Indian civilization is older that means it invented martial arts, r u fucking serious, with your fucking logic India invented everything.
@shobyms ..So again, i'll repeat my question. First, do you believe that Kalaripayatu iS the mother of all martial arts and do you believe that Kung Fu came from kalaripayatu & India. If YES, PLEASE SHOW FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF, NOT SPECULATIONS, NOT THEORY, NOT ASSUMPTIONS, NOT HERE SAY, NOT CLAIMS, JUST FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF. If NO, then we're done arguing. Just remember who's making the BULLSHIT CLAIM/LIE THAT NO OTHER MARTIAL ARTS HAVE THE AUDACITY AND ARROGANCE TO DO, THEREFORE PROVE IT.
@gbb357 you show your evidence first, not circumstantial.. actually you do not have any evidence. I have already shown the linguistic evidence and it surely outweighs the counterpart.
@shobyms ..LOL, are you fucking serious, all of your evidence are circumstantial, and i'm not the one claiming anything, damn you honestly don't have any comprehension skills do you. If you want my evidence, read the post that anrgyaznman posted that i also posted, on page 5. And i just posted another evidence on this page. Read 3 post down, the post about no similarities at all with Kung Fu or any other martial arts. Let me see you try to disprove that.
The association of Bodhidharma with martial arts is traceable to the Yi Jin Jing, though its authenticity has been discredited by several historians such as Tang Hao,[17] Xu Zhen and Matsuda Ryuchi.[18] This argument is summarized by modern historian Lin Boyuan in his Zhongguo wushu shi as follows:
As for the “Yi Jin Jing” (Muscle Changing Classic), a spurious text attributed to Bodhidharma and included in the legend of his transmitting martial arts at the temple, it was written in the Ming dynasty, in 1624 CE, by the Daoist priest Zining of Mt. Tiantai, and falsely attributed to Bodhidharma. Forged prefaces, attributed to the Tang general Li Jing and the Southern Song general Niu Gao were written.
They say that, after Bodhidharma faced the wall for nine years at Shaolin temple, he left behind an iron chest; when the monks opened this chest they found the two books Xi Sui Jing (Marrow Washing Classic) and Yi Jin Jing within. The first book was taken by his disciple Huike, and disappeared; as for the second, “the monks selfishly coveted it, practicing the skills therein, falling into heterodox ways, and losing the correct purpose of cultivating the Real.
@gbb357 ' he faced the wall for 9 years ..but 9 years doesnt mean that his whole life time in china.. ahaha..what a narrow minded.. if it is just 9 years,how could he teach meditation and all ? it is also very clear that he taught them zen or chan buddhism or meditation. i think you are back peddling and having a trip on it..
@shobyms ..READ THE ARTICLE AGAIN, OH WAIT, DON'T BOTHER, YOU CAN'T FUCKING UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ. THE HISTORICAL FACT SIMPLY SAID THAT AFTER HE FACED THE WALL FOR 9YRS, HE LEFT BEHIND A IRON CHEST. IT DIDN'T IMPLY THAT HE DIDN'T TEACH MEDITATION OR BUDDHISM, IT SIMPLY IMPLIED THAT THE MANUSCRIPT WAS FULL OF ERRORS AND NEVER IMPLIED THAT BODHI TAUGHT ANY MARTIAL ARTS, LET ALONE KUNG FU, THAT'S A FACT, CANNOT BE DENIED.
@gbb357 no convincing proof from you yet but i have seen "suppressing" tendency from you. you have not shown how kung fu started in china clearly.However, you managed to show the Chinese-wrestling and made a wide stretch into kung fu which was a generalisation.You forgot to compare 18 adavukal of Kalari to 18 lohan hands. you have no idea about 18 adavukal because it is not online to google. But i know what it is exactly and how similar it is each other.
you kept saying Bodhi taught Meditation but forgot to say the reason why he taught them. He found they are weak..if they practised gong fu and why they needed stretching exercises? aha ..did you find other reports than yin yi jing? there is 39 other reports..Find me the link how Kung fu developed in each stages then ..from Wrestling to Shaolin Kung fu...do you have any valid explanation?
@shobyms....YOU'RE JUST REGURGITATING THE SAME BULLSHIT OVER & OVER LIKE A BROKEN RECORD. WHO SAID THEY WHERE WEAK, THE SAME BULLSHIT STORY. BUT LETS JUST THAT PART OF THE STORY IS TRUE. IS IT SO HARD TO BELIEVE THAT MAYBE THE MONKS WERE OUT OF SHAPE AND BODHI DID TEACH THEM HOW TO EXERCISE/ASSHAT & BUDDHISM. BUT HOW THE FUCK DID YOU COME TO A CONCLUSION THAT BUDDHISM & EXERCISE=KUNG FU, WHEN THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OR FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF TO SUPPORT THIS, NONE.
@shobyms ...YOU DO REALIZE THAT YOU CAN BE A MARTIAL ARTS PRACTITIONER AND BE OUT OF SHAPE. I'M NOT DISCREDITING THE TEACHINGS OF BUDDHISM AND ARHAT/EXERCISE BY THE BODHI, I NEVER DID. BUT YOUR CLAIM THAT ARHAT IS THE BASIS OF KUNG FU IS JUST UTTERLY IDIOTIC & A LIE. YOU'RE JUST COMPOUNDING ANOTHER ON TOP OF A VERY BIG LIE. AND BUDDHISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH KUNG FU EITHER, IT'S A RELIGION/PHILOSOPHY. I ALREADY HAVE SHOWN YOU VALID EXPLANATION, YOU'RE JUST IN DENIAL.
@shobyms ...SO YOU WANT TO SEE AN ACTUAL RECORD OF HOW KUNG FU WAS DEVELOPED, THERE ISN'T ANY. THAT'S WHAT MAKE THIS BULLSHIT CLAIM A LIE. IT'S A MADE UP STORY, A FOLKLORE. IT HAS NO FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF. I CAN MAKE ONE UP RIGHT NOW, IT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S TRUE. RELIGION & EXERCISE DOES NOT EQUATE TO MARTIAL ARTS, PERIOD.
@gbb357 it is like arguing tai chi is just an exercise ...lohan hand is just an exercise ? pardon my sarcasm. why did they name arhat hands after all ? if chinese made arhat hand fighting style why they couldnt fix it with a chinese name? why it is a sanskrit name? it aint just an exercise.. lohan or arhat hand is an attacking as well. same as damo cane.. i think you have no idea about arhat and damo cane.. both arent just for exercise ..ATTACKING STYLES
@shobyms ....THE ILLUSTRATIONS CLEARLY SHOWS THAT ARHAT IS ONLY AN EXERCISE AND SO AS LOHAN HANDS. IS THERE STRIKING POSTURES, SURE 1 OR 2 IN LOHAN. DON'T KNOW TOO MUCH ABOUT TAI CHI, BUT I DID LEARN SOME OF THE STRIKES FORM FROM TAI CHI. IT IS USED BY MANY FOR MEDITATION & EXERCISE, BUT SO AS BOXING. BUT TAI CHI & BOXING ARE PREDOMENANTLY FOR STRIKING, NOT SO WITH ARHAT, IT'S JUST AN EXERCISE & STRECHTING. WHO SAID CHINESE MADE ARHAT HANDS, WTF! CAN'T YOU READ.
The Shaolin monks have made some fame for themselves through their fighting skill; this is all due to having obtained this manuscript.” Based on this, Bodhidharma was claimed to be the ancestor of Shaolin martial arts. This manuscript is full of errors, absurdities and fantastic claims; it cannot be taken as a legitimate source.[19]
The oldest known available copy was published in 1827[18] and the composition of the text itself has been dated to 1624.[19] According to Matsuda, none of the contemporary texts written about the Shaolin martial arts before the 19th century, such as Cheng Zongyou’s Exposition of the Original Shaolin Staff Method or Zhang Kongzhao’s Boxing Classic:
Essential Boxing Methods, mention Bodhidharma or credit him with the creation of the Shaolin martial arts. The association of Bodhidharma with martial arts only becomes widespread as a result of the 1904–1907 serialization of the novel The Travels of Lao Ts’an in Illustrated Fiction Magazine.[20]
Shaolin monastery records state that two of its very first monks, Huiguang and Sengchou, were expert in the martial arts years before the arrival of Bodhidharma.[21] None of the canonical Buddhist sources associates Bodhidharma with martial arts whereas they do note Sengchou’s skill with the tin staff.[22]
NOTE: Huiguang and Sengchou, were expert in the martial arts years before the arrival of Bodhidharma
The discovery of arms caches in the monasteries of Chang’an during government raids in 446 AD suggests that Chinese monks practiced martial arts prior to the establishment of the Shaolin Monastery in 497.[23] Monks came from the ranks of the population among whom the martial arts were widely practiced prior to the introduction of Buddhism.[23]
Moreover, Chinese monasteries, not unlike those of Europe, in many ways were effectively large landed estates, that is, sources of considerable wealth which required protection that had to be supplied by the monasteries’ own manpower.[23]
In addition, the Spring and Autumn Annals of Wu and Yue, the Bibliographies in the Book of the Han Dynasty and the Records of the Grand Historian all document the existence of martial arts in China before Bodhidharma. The martial arts Shuāi Jiāo and Sun Bin Quan, to name two, predate the establishment of the Shaolin Monastery by centuries.[24]
LET ME SEE YOU TRY TO DISPROVE ALL THAT. YOU CAN'T, BUT YOU'LL DENY IT AND COME UP WITH SOME BULLSHIT REBUTTAL THAT HAS NO FACTS.
@shobyms ..Now it's your turn, PLEASE SHOW FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF, NOT SPECULATIONS, NOT THEORY, NOT ASSUMPTIONS, NOT HERE SAY, NOT CLAIMS, DEFINITELY NOT CIRCUMSTANTIAL, LIKE "INDIA CIVILIZATION IS OLDER THAN CHINA THEREFORE IT INVENTED KUNG FU AND IT'S THE MOTHER OF ALL MARTIAL ART" BULLSHIT, JUST FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF. I DARE YOU AND I BEG YOU, YOU CANNOT AND YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO, PERIOD.
@shobyms... BTW, if there's one credible & factual proof that Kung Fu did not come from India & kalaripayatu, just watch all, and i mean all of the videos here in youtube, THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO SIMILARITIES AT ALL, IN STYLE, EXECUTION, FLUIDITY, COORDINATION,& MORE IMPORTANTLY, TECHNIQUE. NONE WHATSOEVER. THE KICKS ALONE ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN TECHNIQUE & EXECUTION. JUST WATCH THIS VIDEO, ESPECIALLY THE EPIC FLYING KICK AT 7:12 & ALL OF THE OTHER KICKS, IT'S SLOPPY & THERE'S NO TECHNIQUE.
what useless conflicts have been started here. everyone knows that bodhidharma took indian kalari art to shaolin which resulted into kung fu. if u train in any art, goju ryu, shorin ryu,kung fu etc. thru their history n lgends it is known that they trace their origins back to kalari n also that b4 bodhi shaolin monks were weak,feeble,diying due to their long meditations. bodhi taught them the physical training n fighting arts.
@broulys1729 ...No conflict at all. As long as there is no factual credible proof that Bodhi actually knew martial arts, and he actually taught martial arts, specifically Kung Fu, then this BULLSHIT CLAIM/LIE IS NOTHING MORE THAN A BULLSHIT CLAIM & LIE, PERIOD. Many if not most Kung Fu masters have repeatedly said that Kung Fu came from China, Eshan Shafiq who is a middle eastern and a Kung Fu master of 25yrs and many others have said the same thing. Am i to believe a master or you, think.
@broulys1729 ..No conflict at all. As long as there is no factual credible proof that Bodhi actually knew martial arts, & he actually taught martial arts, specifically Kung Fu, then this BULLSHIT CLAIM/LIE IS NOTHING MORE THAN A BULLSHIT CLAIM & LIE, PERIOD. Many if not most Kung Fu masters have repeatedly said that Kung Fu came from China, Eshan Shafiq who is a middle eastern & a Kung Fu master of 25yrs & many others have said the same thing. Am i to believe a master or you, think about it.
what bullshit claim is this???? bodhidharma went there n taught there.such descriptions r not only in martial arts legends but the whole budhism history also bears his account.bodhi was 28th or 29th successor of buddha n being a Kshtriya prince he learnt kalari as well. 29-30th one was chinese. the thing called "chan" in china and "Zen" in japan went from india. with it went the treasure of martial arts as well that laid down kung fu.
@broulys1729 ...SHOW ME FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF THAT BODHI TAUGHT KUNG FU, YOU CAN'T BECAUSE THERE IS NONE. IT'S A MADE UP STORY,A FOLKLORE, A MYTH, A LIE, A PROPAGANDA, NOTHING MORE.
@gbb357 first u shud show me the proof that he did not. watch a few tv documentries on martial arts, u wud find the shaolin masters saying about bodhi, the paintings at shaolin depicting indian and chinese training togther and all.
no 2 arts wud match each other completly as kung fu n karate. kung fu basics n forms r free flowing with high speed, karate basics n kata r rigid,not free flowing and focusing on power rather than speed. but that does"nt mean karate didnt come from kung fu.
@broulys1729 ...I have seen that painting from several websites, it doesn't prove anything other than bodhi was training with a shaolin monk. Of course no two arts would be exactly the same or else it wouldn't be two different type of arts. But you would always see similarities, like Karate & Tae Kwon Do, you can see the influence of Kung Fu from both of them. Just like you'll see the similarities between Jiu Jitsu & Judo.
@gbb357 " it doesn't prove anything other than bodhi was training with a shaolin monk."
no,no,no......if they r training togther it only means bodhi was teaching them. B4 bodhi they were so weak like nerds that they could not bear long lasting bodhi"s meditations and bodhi was a Kshtriya prince,warrior prince/king before he became buddhist. so a prince may not learn singing n dancing,painting or poetry but definitely learns warfare,martial arts etc.
@broulys1729 ....Really, so your logic is if they're training together that means bodhi was teaching them, & how do you know this for sure. Do you have any facts to back this up with, or are you just adding more lies on top of a pile of shit lies. So why can't it be the other way around, how do you know for sure that the Shaolin monks didn't know martial arts already, again, where are your facts. Like i said, there are proven facts that the Chinese already knew martial arts way before bodhi came
@gbb357 and kalari has more than few(completely no 2 systems can match.even 2 different karate styles may differ as goju ryu n shorin ryu) techniques matching. watch some other vids. there u"ll c kicking and blocking as in karate and kung fu like mae/mawashi/yoko geris n ashi korma plus also circular blocking, elbow attacks,knee attacks.
@gbb357 Of course i did"nt c any use of knuckle fist but that is the modification we c in kung fu. the japanese adopted kung fu with modifications to give it their own colour n called it karate. same with other few korean martial arts. chinese also modified it but that does"nt mean kung fu did"nt come from kalari just as karate came from kung fu.
actually thats what I said before u. learn the histories as told by goju ryu,uechi ryu or shorin ryu masters. the shaolin temples r full of the accounts of bodhi"s visit, the meditation as well as the physical exercises. Bodhi had no intention of TEACHING ANY MARTIAL ART IN CHINA, he just went for the successor(which he cud not find in india) but monks there cud nt even withstand his penance.Then he taught kalari for their physical strength.
So is Indus valley Civilization? Do you know it pre-dates Chinese civilization? gee,it sounds me that you have not read the history yet. What an elementary thingy.. once again stop swearing as it will not get anywhere.
I am not only replying to you but also to many others like you.Most of them had to agree in the end.So you are not a big deal to me and finally, you tend to swear when you debate.That is not acceptable and it shows how short tempered you are.It is a classic sign of ineptitude and suppression/oppression.
@shobyms ..Most of who agreed to what, if you're basing it on just Indians, then of course they'll agree to this bullshit lie, try to ask the rest of the martial arts community, you'll get a lot of laughter.
Yea,you forgot to admit that I have read your comments so far,hey? I wanted that part to be clear about Bodhi and his 18 hands has a link to Kung fu.Because your opinion is based upon "bodhi has no martial art skills and he never taught it to Chinese".So I had to point it out.
@shobyms ...The 18 hands doesn't prove anything, it's a fucking exercise. Did the 18 hands of Lohan derived from it, possibly & more than likely, but it doesn't mean that Kalaripayatu is the mother of all martial arts, and it certainly doesn't mean that China didn't have martial arts before it either, and it also doesn't mean that Bodhi taught Kung Fu. Why is it soo hard for you to get that simple logic, use your common sense. You do realize that Kung Fu is not just about the 18 hands of Lohan.
If you can not prove the origin of Kung fu from CHINA,then we have to take the other possibilities.Because you are Chinese or Chinese supporter,the patriotism in you or the obstinacy in you ,can not do much.
@shobyms ...I don't have to prove that Kung Fu came from China, everyone knows this and have accepted this as a fact. It's not till recently that the Kalaripayatu community have made this BULLSHIT LIE/CLAIM but has no credible factual proof to back it up with. You're the one that has to prove your BULLSHIT LIE/CLAIM. Again, i'm not Chinese, i'm American w/ German descent, & i am a huge & loyal fan of martial arts & especially Kung Fu, which what i am defending.
@shobyms ..I don't have to prove that Kung Fu came from China, everyone knows this and have accepted this as a fact. It's not till recently that the Kalaripayatu community have made this BULLSHIT LIE/CLAIM but has no credible factual proof to back it up with. You're the one that has to prove your BULLSHIT LIE/CLAIM. Again, i'm not Chinese, i'm American w/ German descent, & i am a huge & loyal fan of martial arts & especially Kung Fu, which what i am defending.
I could still go further but when you started swearing,I had to ignore you because your modicum of knowledge is just showing your low life. So would you do this suppression at home to your other family members ?
arhat hands has no martial art skills? lol.. what about Lo han boxing then? or Arhat boxing..--->The characteristics of the Arhat boxing are plain and simple. It combines simplicity with the beauty of the expressions of the Arhats. It hides its combative skills and blows in the Arhat-like actions. Movements are smoothly comfortable and fully spread out with clear cut rhythms and the cooperation and coordination of attack and defence are rational.
@shobyms ...You can't fucking read, i said that asshat has nothing do with the origins of martial arts, i didn't say it has no martial arts skills. Learn to read and comprehend.
But Yellow Emperors story is under "mythology" and you proved to me that you are ignoring the scope of myths.You converted "myths" into facts.. lol Where are Bodhi dharma"s side has more evidences such as records and historical reports.So who is twisting here? me or you? Bodhidarma case isnt a myth.
@gbb357 yes bodhi is a person not a mythological idol like yellow emperor.. when you read the story about yellow emperor,it has been written " it is said to be" .. not as a factual one
@shobyms ..Wow, lol, nothing in there shows me any similarities. Does kalaripayatu have Dragon styles, which is not even an animal. Does it have Prey Mantis style, again not an animal, and other insect styles as well.
@shobyms..The Yellow Emperor himself might be a Chinese myth, but the surrounding history about him are historical facts, the figure himself might be questionable. Which brings me back to this bullshit claim, it's nothing more than a myth without any credible facts, period.
Another legendary figure during the same period was Chi You who is credited as the creator of “jiao di“, which is thought to be the predecessor of the modern Chinese Wrestling. According to Chinese Mythology, he was a tribal leader and tyrant who fought against the then future Yellow Emperor during the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors era.
@gbb357 wrestling existed to defend in military level in all countries. wrestling wasnt a martial art in comparison to Kung fu.. Chinese wrestling had no relation to Animals styles.So it begs the question that WHERE CHINA GOT ANIMAL STYLES".So it leads to favour Bodhidarma side. India practised martial arts such as Arian arts ( Tang Ta) or kalari. At the same time no other way to develop a style which encompasses animal styles or skilled art because it needs at least 10 years to develop.
@shobyms ..Wrong again, wrestling was & is a martial art, just like judo & jiu-jitsu. Chinese martial arts have animal styles, insects styles, & dragon styles. Damn you got owned twice. Nice try, buy you failed horribly.
you have never showed any proof that China had Martial art skills before Bodhidarma but you pulled out a thread from "myths". So it is like saying Unicorn exists because of Mythology. Moreover,you asked " if Buddhism is from India,how can I prove Kung fu is from India", to this question my answer is, I never claimed in such a way.But i asked you to find the similarities.India never got anything from China in the relevant fields.As Buddhism travelled to other countries (Martial arts as well )
@shobyms ..Wrong, didn't pull out of a thread called "myths", got it from a Kung Fu practitioner who is Indian called iampleasant*com. Read his article that i quoted that you obviously did not read, they're all from historical records & facts. Again, what does the religion or belief of buddhism has anything to do with Kung Fu, other than the Shaolin Monks practice both. I didn't ask anything about buddhism.
Marma sastram (science) dates back at least 6000 years where China got no record of Accupressure/puncture.So where did China learnt these all? IF we have only 1 existing English speaking in this whole world today, after some years,If someone started to speak English, what is the deductive analysis? Would you rather continue claiming that English has been developed all of sudden from no where? even if it has been learnt out of scripts,still they need a link back to the existing person.
@shobyms ..So if accupressure/puncture was from India, that means India is the mother of all martial arts. Wow, how did you come to that conclusion. I guess that proves everything, even the internet came from India if that's the case. I think India invented the fucking wheel too.
All you have done so far is pulling out evidence from Mythologies.. It is not scientific then.Period.Yellow Emperor claims are not historical.If so, how can 18 arhat hands been practised in Shaolin Temple? Without Bodhii Darma how they learnt that sanskrit word ? ATLEAST ANSWER, HOW ARHAT 18 OR Shaolin Luo Han Pu Shen Shi Ba Shou - Arhat Protect Body 18 Hands aka Da Tongbi Quan NAMED IN CHINA ? SO ARE YOU IGNORING IT? I KNOW YOU WOULD.IF YOU AGREE THAT POINT THEN your claims will be dismissed
@shobyms ..Bodhiharma is a legend according to wiki, so is the Yellow Emperor. "Chinese legends attribute the origin of wushu during the oldest “Xia Dynasty” over 4000 years ago when the Yellow Emperor Huangdi who according to legends reigned from 2697 to 2597 BCE created the earliest fighting systems in China. The Chinese describe him as a famous general who wrote lengthy treatises on medicine, astrology and martial arts before becoming the ruler of China."
@shobyms ..You're missing the point completely, there were already martial arts existed before Bodhidarma. '"The best examples of ancient Chinese martial arts practiced before the arrival of Bodhidharma are “Shǒubó“, practiced during the Shang dynasty (1766–1066 BCE) and “Xiang Bo” (similar to modern Sanda), practiced from the 7th century BCE."
@shobyms ..Sure it's historical & factual, you don't agree with so you'll say it's not. "The Han History Bibliographies have accurately recorded on the distinction between no-holds barred weaponless fighting called shǒubó, for which “how-to” manuals were written and sportive wrestling, then known as juélì or jiǎolì during the Former Han (206 BCE – 8 CE) period. Further, information on wrestling can also be found in the Shǐ Jì, Records of the Grand Historian, written by Sima Qian (ca. 100 BCE)."
@shobyms ..What ever the asshat 18 is from, has nothing to do with the origins of martial arts, really doesn't. Don't need to prove anything, you on the other hand have to prove that martial arts claim from India, since you're condoning that bullshit claim that no other martial arts have the audacity & arrogance to make such bullshit claim with no factual credible proof, none, fucking zero.
Chinese legends attribute the origin of wushu during the oldest “Xia Dynasty” over 4000 years ago when the Yellow Emperor Huangdi who according to legends reigned from 2697 to 2597 BCE created the earliest fighting systems in China. The Chinese describe him as a famous general who wrote lengthy treatises on medicine, astrology and martial arts before becoming the ruler of China.
Apart from all these, the Chinese Dragon style kung fu is a highly unique animal kung fu style totally based on the philosophies and myths pertaining to the mythical and legendary Chinese Dragon found in folklores.Like any other martial art, wushu evolved because of the need for self defense, hunting and military training. All these requirements created unique styles of hand to hand as well as weapons techniques for soldiers, imperial guards, merchants etc.
For instance, within the snake style itself there is cobra and viper systems which affects the opponent in different ways just as the bites of these two snakes affect their victims.Further, the concept of birds, insects etc are unique to Chinese fighting systems and have no relation whatsoever to any Indian fighting system. In addition to that, there are weapon systems unique to these animal styles like the monkey staff and the straight sword and spear in snake style.
The animal systems in Chinese martial arts are much more advanced since they mimic the animals and adapt from it in highly refined manners which includes fist positions, stances, footwork, shouting etc.In Chinese wushu, the practitioner must temporarily transform himself into the animal while practising and the “dim mak” or pressure point attack is performed so as to mimic the effect of the said animal’s attack.
We need to pay particular attention to the concept of mimic boxing here because there is an assumption that the concept of mimicking animals in fighting came from Kalaripayattu. That is also far from the truth because the animal concepts taught in Kalaripayattu speaks only about certain postures, jumps etc.
Thus, it is very clear and evident that martial arts were well established in China centuries before the arrival of Bodhidharma or the construction of the Shaolin temple. Almost all of the philosophical as well as technical aspects of Chinese Martial arts were already well developed before Bodhidharma or Buddhism itself (which arrived in China between only 221 – 206 BCE). It is also logically fallacious to assume that Bodhidharma had introduced martial arts to China.
However, from the 16th century onwards, the Shaolin system flourished to epic proportions when it became an integral part of monastic life of the monks. The theory also revolves around just one Shaolin temple in Henan province when in fact there are many such temples in Fujian, Omeishan etc teaching and practising different forms of wushu.
The oldest evidence of the participation of Shaolin in combat has been recorded in 728 AD which describes two incidents in which defense of the monastry took place from bandits around 610 AD and the defeat of Wang Shichong at the Battle of Hulao in 621 AD. There are no documented evidence of Shaolin’s participation in combat from the 8th to the 15th centuries.
The “Han Shu“, written during the Former Han Dynasty by Pan Ku included “Six Chapters of Hand Fighting” in the years between AD 39 and AD 92. Noted physician Hua Tuo composed the “Five Animals Play” which included the movements of tiger, deer, monkey, bear, and bird around 220 BC.The role of Shaolin Temple in influencing the development of Chinese martial arts happened much later in the history of China.
These examples demonstrate how wushu changed with the evolving society over time and acquired a philosophical basis. many practitioners of Taoism used to perform a set of physical exercises similar to today’s qigong called “Dao Yin” as early as 500 BC which many believe is the predecessor of Tai Chi Chuan.
For instance, in the “Passages in Zhuangzi“, a Taoist text written by the eponymous author Zhuangzi who is supposed to have lived in the 4th century BC, describes psychology and practice of martial arts. Another Taoist text, “Tao Te Ching“, written by Lao Tzu, the founder of Taoism contains several principles applicable in martial arts, especially in the internal systems.
The Tang Dynasty poet Li Bai has written accounts of sword dances. During the Song and Yuan dynasties, contests of an art called “xiangpu” were sponsored by the imperial courts and by the Ming and Qing dynasties, the modern concepts of wushu were fully developed.The Chinese philosophical texts have extensive accounts on the martial arts.
@gbb357 ; i think you are ignoring the factual info not me.. what is Arhat boxing then. you claimed arhat has nothing to do with martial art skills.. so if you do not know what is arhat boxing,then go learn. However the purpose of arhat boxing is multipurpose. 1. stretch or physical strength 2, defense ( boxing) like Mantis boxing.Currently, not many know arhat boxing style but they use it as chi kung exercises. pathetic.. it is very clear that you want to ignore and bash ( chinese proud ,huh)
@shobyms ..Again, you can't read & comprehend, i said that asshat has nothing to do with the origins of martial arts. And what do you mean by Chinese proud, i'm American with German background.
NO INDIA = NO CHINA.. check your history books ( how India contributed to China from BC 5000 ) .Sorry, i do not want to teach history but go and find if you want to know otherwise keep bashing as a troll.
@shobyms ..So now you're claiming that if it wasn't for India there will be no China, that's even more ludicrous than the bodhidarma bullshit claim, LOL. Sure India contributed and influenced China, but to say there's no China if it wasn't for India, that's pretty fucking arrogant. You do realize that Chinese civilization has been around way before 5000BC. Go read and learn will ya.
gbb357 : jiao di has no relation to Shaolin Kung fu.. So do not compare.. there is no major comparison between both.But when you do it with kalari,you will see more.. your evidences are for jiao di not for HOW JIAO DI BECAME SHAOLIN KUNG FU. you quoted it from a chinese favouring website..ahaha... you couldnt find any wikipedia atleast? lol.. it is undeniable that bodhi taught them because ANIMAL STYLES EXISTED BEFORE BODHIDARMA..
The theory of hand to hand combat that includes integration of the concepts of “hard” and “soft” techniques have been expounded in the story of the “Maiden of Yue in the Spring” and “Autumn Annals of Wu and Yue” written during 5th century BCE.
The Han History Bibliographies have accurately recorded on the distinction between no-holds barred weaponless fighting called shǒubó, for which “how-to” manuals were written and sportive wrestling, then known as juélì or jiǎolì during the Former Han (206 BCE – 8 CE) period. Further, information on wrestling can also be found in the Shǐ Jì, Records of the Grand Historian, written by Sima Qian (ca. 100 BCE).
The “Classics of Rites” written in the 1st century BCE describe a combat wrestling system called “juélì” or “jiǎolì” which used strikes, throws, joint manipulation and pressure point attacks. During the Qin Dynasty (221–207 BCE), Jiao Di became a sport.
The best examples of ancient Chinese martial arts practiced before the arrival of Bodhidharma are “Shǒubó“, practiced during the Shang dynasty (1766–1066 BCE) and “Xiang Bo” (similar to modern Sanda), practiced from the 7th century BCE. It was in 509 BCE that Confucius suggested Duke Ding of Lu that people should practice martial arts alongside literary arts thereby beginning an era of martial arts where laypeople outside the military and religious sects started practicing them.
So what Yoga has to do with Hinduism? do you see the relation there? Buddhism has relation with Kung fu because Only Shaolin temples were teaching kung fu ( mainly) in China.Of course,Buddhist Monks taught Kung fu so it is related to Buddhism. I know about Kalari because I have experienced and learnt it a bit. Marmas are almost same as Chinese Accupoints or Chi points.If you are ignoring those, you are just a contrarian, I guess. I already admitted that there is no empirical proof.
I think gbb357 purposefully avoiding the record about Bodhi"s kung fu skills.He practised Kalari and Dravidian stick fight while he was in India.Deuctively, there is no way that China could get martial arts apart from Bodhi because no martial art skills were being taught in Shaolin.got to read the story of Bodhi. however, it needs deductive reading and a bit of probability theory.. take it easy anyway.. it is your choice what you want to believe. martial art never pays my bills..lol
@shobyms ..Wrong again, martial arts already existed in China way before this guy Bodhi that only knew Yoga. You can believe this LIE all you want, doesn't really matter, don't care. Bottom line is, it's all a BULLSHIT CLAIM AND LIE, THAT HAS NO FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF, PERIOD. LOL:)
@shobyms ..I'm not avoiding anything, you on the other hand are avoiding all the proof that i have given. Check page 3 or 4 and check "Kalari TRUTH: Phillip Zarrilli in wikipedia and check iampleasant.
@gbb357 : Are we critically analysing ? Phillip Zarrilli"s opinion has to be proven otherwise be hypothetical.First of all, you havent had any experience with Kerala or Kalari but conjecturally criticizing it. en.wikipedia*org/wiki/Shaolin_Kung_Fu states clearly the origin of kung fu ( shaolin) was with Bodhidarma.
@shobyms ..Phillip Zarrilli's research are based on historical facts and findings, not opinions or speculations. This bullshit claim is based on speculation, lie, & propaganda. Again, just look at the sloppy kicks on all of the kalaripayatu videos, they're not even remotely close to Kung Fu. Sorry, try again.
Some Chinese accounts describe Bodhidharma as being disturbed by the poor physical shape of the Shaolin monks, after which he instructed them in techniques to maintain their physical condition as well as teaching meditation. He is said to have taught a series of external exercises called the Eighteen Arhat Hands (Shi-ba Lohan Shou), and an internal practice called the Sinew Metamorphosis Classic en.wikipedia.*org/wiki/Bodhidharma_at_Shaolin#Bodhidharma_at_Shaolin
@shobyms ..You obviously didn't read any of the suggestions i gave you and you're obviously in denial. Bodhi guy simply taught the monks how to exercise and buddhism, nothing more. He had no clue of any martial arts as far as historical facts go, but you can speculate all you want.
Perhaps, you are a Chinese or dislike Indians so you favour the counterpart. If you have read the history of Bodhi Darma,it is very clear that he taught Eighteen Arhat Hands (Shi-ba Lohan Shou) wikipedia also pinned many references. arhat means = worthy one or saint.. Chinese still use that word "arhat" from Samskritham.. so pity if you ignore these. How could Chinese get Indian terms without Bodhi ?
@shobyms ..Me Chinese, not even close. American with German descent buddy. Not that it really matters. Anyway, you're linking all these other bullshit and making up your conclusion that because the Chinese have studied Buddhism and used words from India, that automatically means Kung Fu came from China, hahahha, LMFAO. OMG what kind of a logic is that.
Kalari Truth has no proof to debunk ,but they want to establish the supremacy of Chinese origin( perhaps) . study an art well dear brother.find the similarities in both.you ignored to answer the animal styles in Kalari and compare to Kung fu. what about Marmas vs accupressure ? Hard for you to admit it? India has a record of wisdoms ( proven) before China. obviously, you are avoiding many things there and attacking the weak points.However,evidences outweighs your position.
This has been flagged as spam show
wiki shaolin kung fu - History
wiki shaolin monestery - patron saint - at the bottom it talks about the indian monk, and what martial arts historians think of him bringing kung fu to China
wiki Bodhidharma - Bodhidharma at Shaolin
now even basic wiki discredits your fantasies.
angryaznman 3 months ago
End of the day, Boddidharma was the first patriarch of the Shaloin school of Kung Fu as he encouraged Marital arts as a way to increase concentration and focus in meditation.
jensonpais 3 months ago
@jensonpais ...At the end of the day, there's no factual credible proof that Bodhi taught Kung Fu or any other martial arts, period. Therefore, this bullshit false claim, lie, made up story, or whatever else you can call it, is simply no true.
gbb357 3 months ago
These guys won through strength. Indian guys, especially those involved in traditional fighting are usually strict vegetarians. They also do no weight training at all. You could see the total strength dominance here.
thesku11s 4 months ago
@thesku11s ...Those simple take downs is not about strength, it's all in the technique. Especially in this episode when both Indian guys were much bigger & heavier. You don't have to be really strong to be fast, and clearly both Doug & Jimmy were much faster and had much better techniques. If you can't execute a basic strike or a basic kick to be specific, like that retarded "flying kick" at 7:15, at the level of this kalari practitioners, proves that this art has nothing to do with Kung Fu.
gbb357 3 months ago
@gbb357 I do think that Kung Fu is not related to Kalari at all. BUt you can't belittle it as it is. I love how Americans tend to love talking about martial arts and stuff like that. Just because they learn stuff at martial arts school they think they are masters at it.
jensonpais 3 months ago
@jensonpais ...As i have stated many times, i respect all form of martial arts. I do no respect Kalaripayatu's claim that they're the "MOTHER OF ALL MARTIAL ARTS", & that Kung Fu came from them. That's just an outright lie & it's a disgusting one. And i certainly don't have respect for the ones that back up this LIE without any credible factual proof. Not only do they back up this LIE, some of them actually claim that it's better. You have to be in denial or lying to say such BULLSHIT, or both.
gbb357 3 months ago
@jensonpais ...Never did i claim that i'm a master, not even close. But i'm knowledgeable enough to know that the attempt of a flying kick on 7:15 on this video was retarded & that guy have no clue how to execute that kick nor does he know what he's doing, at all. And i also know enough that these Kalari guys were completely outclassed by Doug & Jimmy with simple take downs & simple strikes.
gbb357 3 months ago
@gbb357 India has been generally a peace loving nation from the ancient times. But there were rulers in South India especially from the region where Kalari originated have been maritime invaders of other South East Asian countries a long time ago. The Cambodian temples have Hindu architecture. SO clearly this art was actually a very effective martial arts. I am more of a Muay Thai fan but respect other martial art forms.
jensonpais 3 months ago
@jensonpais ..In regards to my criticism, go watch this video, "Fighting without weapons, Kalarippayattu, Martial art, Kerala", watch the moves on 0:24 & 1:56. Those kicks on 1:56 are retarded, & that attempt of grappling on 0:24 is even more retarded. Even a beginner in Karate are not taught with those kicks, no Martial Arts teaches those kicks. Having architectural or even religion influences does not equate to martial arts.
gbb357 3 months ago
waaaaa.. thumbs UP! juice!
azimchew 4 months ago
in reality the kalari guy can easily hurt the opponents in the pressure points
jaycdp 4 months ago
kalari is not trained as competative..............where as the others are
jaycdp 4 months ago
damn even KUNG FU was thought by an indian to chinese >>>check BODHI DHARMA"S history
MrYuvra 4 months ago
@MrYuvra try again
wiki shaolin kung fu - History
wiki shaolin monestery - patron saint - at the bottom it talks about the indian monk, and what martial arts historians think of him bringing kung fu to China
wiki Bodhidharma - Bodhidharma at Shaolin
now even basic wiki discredits your fantasies.
angryaznman 4 months ago
@angryaznman you need to give up being an internet troll. Clearly I can see the hatred for Indians, almost makes me suspect that you are from Pakistan :P
jensonpais 3 months ago
@angryaznman there is no mention about Boddhidharma teaching martial arts to the Chinese monks. But there is a high possibility that whatever he thought was perfected in technique by the Chinese proponents of Kung Fu.
Maybe they practiced Kung Fu long before Boddhi arrived at the Shaolin monastery. But the use of the long stick as a weapon intrigues and clearly shows there is a link.
jensonpais 3 months ago
A Shaloin monk came to India and named the Himalayas on his cross over. come on Bruce Lee or. Exactly give it a break we own America food on every corner and goods in every Walmart. Welcome to New China.
sanjeezy 4 months ago
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Phillip Zarrilli, a professor at the University of Exeter and one of the few Western authorities on kalari payat, estimates that the art dates back to at least the 12th century CE. The historian Elamkulam Kunjan Pillai attributes the birth of kalari payat to an extended period of warfare between the Cheras and the Cholas in the 11th century CE.
angryaznman 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Kalari TRUTH:
In Sangam, Kalari was not used as a martial act according to Dick Luijendijk, a researcher at the university of Nijmegen. "Kalari" is a centre of learning in Kerala. they taught language, math etc. later on, there were fight schools, thats what "payattu kalari" means.
angryaznman 4 months ago
Qing Scholars of the same time as the preface denounced the author of the preface as "an ignorant village master" because there are MANY historical errors in the preface, including getting who was emperor at the time WRONG. that is like saying Bush is still president.
google this
"A Venerated Forgery: The Daoist Origins of Shaolin’s Famous Yijin Jing Manual By Jim R. McClanahan"
For detailed examples.
angryaznman 4 months ago
There is ONE source for this bodhi myth. 1800s PREFACE of the yi jin jing has the story of him staring at a rock wall for years then disappearing into thin air leaving behind 2 books. 1 being the yi jin jing, which doesnt teach any fighting. it only teaches stretches and breathing exercises. even the MYTH doesnt say bodhi taught shaolin monks anything.
historians (like Tang Hao, Xu Zhen and Matsuda Ryuchi) have discredited the myth and the preface altogether.
btw there isnt 1 indian source.
angryaznman 4 months ago
Hold up - I'm confused about this entire argument. Bodhidharma was a Buddhist monk (basically a variant of Hinduism, but essentially the same religion) who went from India to China and exported the martial art form to China, along with Buddhism. Despite what people think, India exported a million things to other parts of Asia. For example, Feng Shui is just another version of Vastu Shastra (is that how you spell it?). I don't understand what the big deal is. Why are people arguing?
MsM220 4 months ago
@MsM220 nope, historians discredit that myth a long time ago. there is arguments because indians are too desperate to steal credit for something they dont even have the ability to create.
angryaznman 4 months ago
It is very interesting, similar exercises we practice our fighting system is called chun Wing and is highly recognized internationally, I invite you to see my channel, best regards
alejandrocastr 5 months ago
@shobyms and @gbb357 : two useless motherfuckers
TheConlele 5 months ago
@TheConlele ...Thanks for joining the club, now you can be the fucking president of useless shithead trolling motherfuckers. Now if you can only add some substance to your post, it'll be more interesting, otherwise, go fuck yourself.
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms and gbb357 : Two fucking shithead trolls
TheConlele 5 months ago
THAT has nothing to do with Kalari... And you can not learn it on a two week budget holiday.. sad...
sighland 5 months ago
who is regurgitating? me or you? why can not you hit your caPS lock? caps are considered as yelling in the absence of verbal chat.I am off to bed.. time 1.20am..i am sorry if i cant reply.. speak to you after..i guess day after tomorrow..
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms...YOU'RE REGURGITATING THE SAME BULLSHIT STORY OF HOW THE BODHI SAW THE MONKS WERE OUT OF SHAPE SO HE TAUGHT THEM HOW TO EXERCISE AND TAUGHT THEM A RELIGION, AND SOMEHOW FROM THOSE TEACHINGS, KUNG FU MAGICALLY CAME ABOUT BECAUSE TEACHING EXERCISE & RELIGION YOU'LL LEARN KUNG FU. NEXT ONE YOU'RE GOING TO REGURGITATE IS HOW BODHI CAME FROM INDIA & TAUGHT THE MONKS MARTIAL ARTS, BECAUSE BODHI IS THE INVENTOR OF MARTIAL ARTS, HENCE KALARI IS THE "MOTHER OF ALL MARTIAL ARTS"....LMFAO!!!
gbb357 5 months ago
oh as if I have claimed like you said.. why are you manipulating? you have even argued that it has no relation in the beginning. you have shown no records that shows the relation of chinese wrestling to kung fu.. but you showed something existed before only.It doesnt mean you established something..
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..I TOLD YOU BEFORE, AND I'M TELLING YOU AGAIN, I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING OR ESTABLISH ANYTHING, I'M NOT THE ONE MAKING ANY RIDICULOUS CLAIM OR LIE THAT HAS NO CREDIBLE FACTUAL PROOF. I'VE ALREADY DEBUNKED YOUR BULLSHIT LIE, WHAT DON'T YOU PROVE ME WRONG OR PROVE YOUR LIE WITH CREDIBLE FACTUAL PROOFS, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. YOU DON'T HAVE ANY PROOF OR FACTS TO BACK IT UP WITH, PERIOD.
gbb357 5 months ago
you need to tell me the origin of 18 arhat hands after reading wiki. do not copy paste it to me.prove me that arhat 18 has no relation to India at all. good bye until you come up with a plausible explanation.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..WHEN DID I EVER SAID THAT YOUR 18 ASSHAT HANDS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INDIA, PLEASE SHOW ME I NEVER SAID THAT, BUT YOU CAN'T FUCKING READ AND HAS NO COMPREHENSION ABILITY. UNTIL YOU LEARN HOW TO READ & COMPREHEND, DON'T BOTHER RESPONDING.
gbb357 5 months ago
brouls1729 s message was confusing because he started on supporting bodhis lineage and changed his position latter on ? never mind.
shobyms 5 months ago
so both of you take a rest gbb357 and broulys1729. do your research without bias.I can see you were very biased and mugged some websites or your master( CHinese).... Now you can not even say CHINESE because it is an Indian SANSKRIT word.
By the bye, I would like add an endnote SANSKRIT is the real language of INDIA not HINDI ( a persian mix).However, there are many Indian racists these days like we see in every other countries.watch out..
shobyms 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
So, how did they use the term "arhat" and figure 18 ? out of nowhere ? If you agree with this , then you will fail this argument.So i will leave this up to you. get over with your pride..
Do you wanna hear me out ? the word CHINA is even from INDIA..lol
check this out then ---> en.wikipedia*org /wiki/China#Etymology
As I said before, Chana,jhyana or dhyana ( sanskrit word) so CHANese..eventually it evoluted into CHINese.. China belongs to India in one sense..lol..
shobyms 5 months ago
So, how did they use the term "arhat" and figure 18 ? out of nowhere ? If you agree with this , then you will fail this argument.So i will leave this up to you. get over with your pride..
Do you wanna hear me out ? the word CHINA is even from INDIA..lol
check this out then ---> en.wikipedia*org/wiki/China#Etymology
As I said before, Chana,jhyana or dhyana ( sanskrit word) so CHANese..eventually it evoluted into CHINese.. China belongs to India in one sense..lol..
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..SO THE WORD CHINA IS FROM INDIA, SO IN YOUR DELUSIONAL CONCLUSION, THE CHINESE ARE ACTUALLY INDIANS AND EVERYTHING FROM CHINA CAME FROM INDIA. WOW, THIS DESERVES NOT JUST LOL, BUT LMFAO.
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 it aint my conclusion,yours. i said the word china is an Indian word ..look up wikipedia and etymology. I think your educational standard is below average to understand critically.I havent seen your answer for 18 arhats after. I think you are just a troll for China..sorry I do not waste my time with you anymore. quit responding.over and out.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..OKAY, I DIDN'T DISAGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THE WORD CHINA BEING AN INDIAN WORD AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING WITH OUR DISCUSSION. SO EXACTLY WHAT IS YOUR POINT WITH THAT AND WHY DOES IT MATTER. YOU OBVIOUSLY CANNOT COMPREHEND BECAUSE I ALREADY GAVE YOU AN ANSWER ABOUT YOUR ASSHAT. IT CAME FROM INDIA, SO WHAT, ASSHAT IS NOT THE BASIS OF KUNG FU, BUT YOUR TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND THAT.
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..AND WHAT'S UP WITH YOU INSISTING I'M CHINESE,I'M FROM NYC, USA BORN & RAISED & YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE A PERSONAL ISSUE WITH CHINA OR CHINESE PEOPLE. THAT'S FINE WITH ME, I COULD CARE LESS. I TOLD YOU I'M GERMAN DESCENT AND PROUD OF IT BUT I'M AMERICAN FIRST & FOREMOST. MY ONLY MAIN OBJECTIVE IS TO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT KUNG FU & SPREAD THE WORD ABOUT THIS BULLSHIT LIE FROM THE KALARIPAIYATU COMMUNITY. DON'T WANT TO RESPOND, THAT'S FINE WITH ME, MISSION ACCOMPLISH, I WIN. :)
gbb357 5 months ago
Buddhism started around 5th cen BC.I think China accepted Buddhism after 5th cen AD ( figures may not be accurate but generally accepted). The word CHAN started because of Buddhism in China.Indian word is Chyana/jyana/dhyana..Japan borrowed it from China and made it as ZEN ( from CHAN ), a possible linguistic evolution.thats all. Because CHAN did not exist in any Chinese scripts before Budhism.
secondly, If arhats are not from India or buddhism,then it can be China ( continued)
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..WHO SAID THAT THE 18 ASSHATS DIDN'T COME FROM INDIA, WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.
gbb357 5 months ago
I guess your previous posts were showing the description of 18 arhat hands but you lied or hid the origin where wikipedia clearly shows it. It may be because you copy pasted it from your supporting website so i guess it brainwashed you to believe so. As a result, you copied the same and acted as if you know about18 lohan or arhat hands. I assume that you have no idea about 18 arhat hands and you are not practising.( i guess)
shobyms 5 months ago
if 18 arhats are based upon buddhism,how could it exists before buddhism? lol.. no way.. atleast you have to agree that 18 arhat styles started because of buddhism and buddhism is from India.So no India,and then no Buddhism.If no buddhism and then no 18 arhat styles in China.lol.. According to Chinese supporters, 18 arhats are from China but they do not have any proof to establish that point,neither you. do a deductive reading.. only chance according to available history is Bodhi.he taught them
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..THERE'S ALREADY MARTIAL ARTS BEFORE 18 ASSHATS & BUDDHISM, THAT'S A FACT. LOL TO YOU TOO. DID THE 18 LOHAN FIST/HANDS DERIVED FROM 18 ASSHATS, LOGIC WOULD SAY YES. SO WHAT, IT DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING OTHER THAN THAT. BUDDHISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY MARTIAL ARTS OTHER THAN THE SHAOLIN MONKS STUDIES IT. AGAIN, IT DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING. JIU JITSU IS DERIVED FROM JUDO, DOES THAT MEAN BRAZILIANS ARE JAPANESE DESCENT, SEE HOW IDIOTIC YOUR LOGIC IS.
gbb357 5 months ago
show the factual proof that shows the link for kung fu to china.. showing chinese wrestling is not an evidence. neither any modern days scholars because it is not agreed mutually. So bring you evidence that clearly shows how china developed the styles.. If you look at 18 arhats in wiki it shows how it related to India.. It is your Chinese propaganda in order to get credit for your pride..period ..stop yelling,it will get you nowhere but miss a decent conversation.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING, I'M NOT MAKING ANY BULLSHIT CLAIM, AND I ALREADY HAVE SHOWN YOU CREDIBLE FACTUAL PROOFS AND YOU'RE IN DENIAL. BUT I'LL HUMOR YOU ANYWAY, HERE'S MY PROOF. THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES BETWEEN KALARIPAYATU & KUNG FU, NONE IN STRIKES, COORDINATION, TECHNIQUE, AND STYLE. TRY TO DISPROVE THAT, YOU CAN'T. FURTHERMORE, KALARIPAYATU IS SLOPPY, UNCOORDINATED, HAS NO TECHNIQUE & STYLE. THAT'S A FACT.
gbb357 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
stop yelling I do not watch youtube 24 hours so I was not here. read it clearly ---> en.wikipedia*org/wiki/Eighteen_Arhats it shows how it is related to India and it shows it has no origin from China.So your allegations are invalid and caps are considered as you cant hold a decent argument.
shobyms 5 months ago
If you are just a rebellion, there is no need to debunk.As a result, you will less likely accept even if there are 39 accounts to support apart from yin Jin jing.. linguistic evidence prove nothing ? aha much better than your circumstantial anecdotal threads of yellow emperor or so.. I wonder if you have anything that is factual or else i am not surprised. BTW, If you are not Chinese or Indian,then Why bothered? get out of it anyway. we do not reckon Germans or Amercianos in relation to Kung fu
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ...FIRST OF ALL, KUNG FU IS VERY MUCH RESPECTED & POPULAR IN USA, JUST LIKE EVERYWHERE ELSE ALL OVER THE WORLD. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE CHINESE TO HAVE A PASSION FOR IT, I HAVE MANY FRIENDS & RELATIVES IN GERMANY & PARTS OF SE ASIA THAT ARE JUST AS PASSIONATE ABOUT KUNG FU AS I AM. AGAIN WHAT DOES LINGUISTIC EVIDENCE PROVE, AN INDIAN WORD IS USED IN KUNG FU THEREFORE IT MUST CAME FROM INDIA, ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms .. SO WHERE'S YOUR PROOF AGAIN? AND WHAT'S WITH THE OBSESSION WITH THE YELLOW EMPEROR, THAT WAS JUST PART OF THE ARTICLE, THAT WASN'T A PROOF. THE HISTORY SURROUNDING THE YELLOW EMPEROR IS THE PROOF, IF YOU ONLY KNEW HOW TO COMPREHEND OR READ, YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND. I GAVE YOU FACTUAL PROOF THAT WAS DONE BY ACTUAL HISTORIANS, WTF DO YOU HAVE. OH YEAH, "INDIA IS THE OLDEST CIVILIZATION, THEREFORE IT CREATED HUMANITY, AND KUNG FU". AND "LETS NOT FORGET THAT SOME WORDS ARE USED IN KUNG FU".
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..CAN YOU AT LEAST SHOW ME A VIDEO THAT HAS ANY RESEMBLANCES WITH KUNG FU IN REGARDS TO THE TECHNIQUE, EXECUTION, STYLE, COORDINATION, FLUIDITY, ETC. ETC. THROWING YOUR ARMS AND SLAPPING EACH OTHER LIKE GIRLS LIKE IN THIS VIDEO IS NOT GOING TO CUT IT, ESPECIALLY WITH THOSE RETARDED FLYING KICKS AND CHEERLEADER KICKS. I GUARANTEE YOU, YOU CAN'T.
gbb357 5 months ago
gbb357 I have noticed that you mentioned Chinese Civilization but When I replied for that with Indian Civilization,you ignored it.You were very proud to talk about Chinese Civilization time but forgot or unaware that Indian civilization pre-dates Chinese Civi. I never claimed Kalari is the mother of all martial art but I claimed Shaolin influenced from Kalari. SEE WHO CANT READ PROPERLY NOW
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..I never said you mentioned that Kalaripayatu is the mother of all martial arts, but this is my original and only argument, that you have joined in to argue against me. I've said many times repeatedly that if you don't believe the BULLSHIT CLAIM/LIE that kalaripayatu is the mother of all martial arts and that Kung Fu came from it, then we don't have anything to talk about. But you keep coming back trying to say that it did. Yes, i'll say it again, reading is fundamental.
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..In regards to the Chinese civilization, i didn't ignored it at all, i just didn't see it right away & didn't get to respond to it. But i'll repeat what i said, you do realize that the Chinese civilization if more than 5000yrs old, & you responded by saying that Indian civilization is older, SO WHAT? Is that another proof of yours that because the Indian civilization is older that means it invented martial arts, r u fucking serious, with your fucking logic India invented everything.
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..So again, i'll repeat my question. First, do you believe that Kalaripayatu iS the mother of all martial arts and do you believe that Kung Fu came from kalaripayatu & India. If YES, PLEASE SHOW FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF, NOT SPECULATIONS, NOT THEORY, NOT ASSUMPTIONS, NOT HERE SAY, NOT CLAIMS, JUST FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF. If NO, then we're done arguing. Just remember who's making the BULLSHIT CLAIM/LIE THAT NO OTHER MARTIAL ARTS HAVE THE AUDACITY AND ARROGANCE TO DO, THEREFORE PROVE IT.
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 you show your evidence first, not circumstantial.. actually you do not have any evidence. I have already shown the linguistic evidence and it surely outweighs the counterpart.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..LOL, are you fucking serious, all of your evidence are circumstantial, and i'm not the one claiming anything, damn you honestly don't have any comprehension skills do you. If you want my evidence, read the post that anrgyaznman posted that i also posted, on page 5. And i just posted another evidence on this page. Read 3 post down, the post about no similarities at all with Kung Fu or any other martial arts. Let me see you try to disprove that.
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..Here your evidence.
The association of Bodhidharma with martial arts is traceable to the Yi Jin Jing, though its authenticity has been discredited by several historians such as Tang Hao,[17] Xu Zhen and Matsuda Ryuchi.[18] This argument is summarized by modern historian Lin Boyuan in his Zhongguo wushu shi as follows:
CONTINUE....
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..CONT.
As for the “Yi Jin Jing” (Muscle Changing Classic), a spurious text attributed to Bodhidharma and included in the legend of his transmitting martial arts at the temple, it was written in the Ming dynasty, in 1624 CE, by the Daoist priest Zining of Mt. Tiantai, and falsely attributed to Bodhidharma. Forged prefaces, attributed to the Tang general Li Jing and the Southern Song general Niu Gao were written.
CONT......
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..CONT.
They say that, after Bodhidharma faced the wall for nine years at Shaolin temple, he left behind an iron chest; when the monks opened this chest they found the two books Xi Sui Jing (Marrow Washing Classic) and Yi Jin Jing within. The first book was taken by his disciple Huike, and disappeared; as for the second, “the monks selfishly coveted it, practicing the skills therein, falling into heterodox ways, and losing the correct purpose of cultivating the Real.
CONT....
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 ' he faced the wall for 9 years ..but 9 years doesnt mean that his whole life time in china.. ahaha..what a narrow minded.. if it is just 9 years,how could he teach meditation and all ? it is also very clear that he taught them zen or chan buddhism or meditation. i think you are back peddling and having a trip on it..
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..READ THE ARTICLE AGAIN, OH WAIT, DON'T BOTHER, YOU CAN'T FUCKING UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ. THE HISTORICAL FACT SIMPLY SAID THAT AFTER HE FACED THE WALL FOR 9YRS, HE LEFT BEHIND A IRON CHEST. IT DIDN'T IMPLY THAT HE DIDN'T TEACH MEDITATION OR BUDDHISM, IT SIMPLY IMPLIED THAT THE MANUSCRIPT WAS FULL OF ERRORS AND NEVER IMPLIED THAT BODHI TAUGHT ANY MARTIAL ARTS, LET ALONE KUNG FU, THAT'S A FACT, CANNOT BE DENIED.
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 no convincing proof from you yet but i have seen "suppressing" tendency from you. you have not shown how kung fu started in china clearly.However, you managed to show the Chinese-wrestling and made a wide stretch into kung fu which was a generalisation.You forgot to compare 18 adavukal of Kalari to 18 lohan hands. you have no idea about 18 adavukal because it is not online to google. But i know what it is exactly and how similar it is each other.
shobyms 5 months ago
you kept saying Bodhi taught Meditation but forgot to say the reason why he taught them. He found they are weak..if they practised gong fu and why they needed stretching exercises? aha ..did you find other reports than yin yi jing? there is 39 other reports..Find me the link how Kung fu developed in each stages then ..from Wrestling to Shaolin Kung fu...do you have any valid explanation?
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms....YOU'RE JUST REGURGITATING THE SAME BULLSHIT OVER & OVER LIKE A BROKEN RECORD. WHO SAID THEY WHERE WEAK, THE SAME BULLSHIT STORY. BUT LETS JUST THAT PART OF THE STORY IS TRUE. IS IT SO HARD TO BELIEVE THAT MAYBE THE MONKS WERE OUT OF SHAPE AND BODHI DID TEACH THEM HOW TO EXERCISE/ASSHAT & BUDDHISM. BUT HOW THE FUCK DID YOU COME TO A CONCLUSION THAT BUDDHISM & EXERCISE=KUNG FU, WHEN THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OR FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF TO SUPPORT THIS, NONE.
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ...YOU DO REALIZE THAT YOU CAN BE A MARTIAL ARTS PRACTITIONER AND BE OUT OF SHAPE. I'M NOT DISCREDITING THE TEACHINGS OF BUDDHISM AND ARHAT/EXERCISE BY THE BODHI, I NEVER DID. BUT YOUR CLAIM THAT ARHAT IS THE BASIS OF KUNG FU IS JUST UTTERLY IDIOTIC & A LIE. YOU'RE JUST COMPOUNDING ANOTHER ON TOP OF A VERY BIG LIE. AND BUDDHISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH KUNG FU EITHER, IT'S A RELIGION/PHILOSOPHY. I ALREADY HAVE SHOWN YOU VALID EXPLANATION, YOU'RE JUST IN DENIAL.
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ...SO YOU WANT TO SEE AN ACTUAL RECORD OF HOW KUNG FU WAS DEVELOPED, THERE ISN'T ANY. THAT'S WHAT MAKE THIS BULLSHIT CLAIM A LIE. IT'S A MADE UP STORY, A FOLKLORE. IT HAS NO FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF. I CAN MAKE ONE UP RIGHT NOW, IT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S TRUE. RELIGION & EXERCISE DOES NOT EQUATE TO MARTIAL ARTS, PERIOD.
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 it is like arguing tai chi is just an exercise ...lohan hand is just an exercise ? pardon my sarcasm. why did they name arhat hands after all ? if chinese made arhat hand fighting style why they couldnt fix it with a chinese name? why it is a sanskrit name? it aint just an exercise.. lohan or arhat hand is an attacking as well. same as damo cane.. i think you have no idea about arhat and damo cane.. both arent just for exercise ..ATTACKING STYLES
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ....THE ILLUSTRATIONS CLEARLY SHOWS THAT ARHAT IS ONLY AN EXERCISE AND SO AS LOHAN HANDS. IS THERE STRIKING POSTURES, SURE 1 OR 2 IN LOHAN. DON'T KNOW TOO MUCH ABOUT TAI CHI, BUT I DID LEARN SOME OF THE STRIKES FORM FROM TAI CHI. IT IS USED BY MANY FOR MEDITATION & EXERCISE, BUT SO AS BOXING. BUT TAI CHI & BOXING ARE PREDOMENANTLY FOR STRIKING, NOT SO WITH ARHAT, IT'S JUST AN EXERCISE & STRECHTING. WHO SAID CHINESE MADE ARHAT HANDS, WTF! CAN'T YOU READ.
gbb357 5 months ago
Comment removed
gbb357 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@shobyms ..CONT.
The Shaolin monks have made some fame for themselves through their fighting skill; this is all due to having obtained this manuscript.” Based on this, Bodhidharma was claimed to be the ancestor of Shaolin martial arts. This manuscript is full of errors, absurdities and fantastic claims; it cannot be taken as a legitimate source.[19]
CONT....
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..CONT.
The oldest known available copy was published in 1827[18] and the composition of the text itself has been dated to 1624.[19] According to Matsuda, none of the contemporary texts written about the Shaolin martial arts before the 19th century, such as Cheng Zongyou’s Exposition of the Original Shaolin Staff Method or Zhang Kongzhao’s Boxing Classic:
CONT....
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..CONT.
Essential Boxing Methods, mention Bodhidharma or credit him with the creation of the Shaolin martial arts. The association of Bodhidharma with martial arts only becomes widespread as a result of the 1904–1907 serialization of the novel The Travels of Lao Ts’an in Illustrated Fiction Magazine.[20]
Main gate of the Shaolin temple in Henan.
CONT.......
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..CONT.
Shaolin monastery records state that two of its very first monks, Huiguang and Sengchou, were expert in the martial arts years before the arrival of Bodhidharma.[21] None of the canonical Buddhist sources associates Bodhidharma with martial arts whereas they do note Sengchou’s skill with the tin staff.[22]
NOTE: Huiguang and Sengchou, were expert in the martial arts years before the arrival of Bodhidharma
CONT......
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..CONT.
The discovery of arms caches in the monasteries of Chang’an during government raids in 446 AD suggests that Chinese monks practiced martial arts prior to the establishment of the Shaolin Monastery in 497.[23] Monks came from the ranks of the population among whom the martial arts were widely practiced prior to the introduction of Buddhism.[23]
CONT....
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms .CONT.
Moreover, Chinese monasteries, not unlike those of Europe, in many ways were effectively large landed estates, that is, sources of considerable wealth which required protection that had to be supplied by the monasteries’ own manpower.[23]
CONT.....
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..CONT.
In addition, the Spring and Autumn Annals of Wu and Yue, the Bibliographies in the Book of the Han Dynasty and the Records of the Grand Historian all document the existence of martial arts in China before Bodhidharma. The martial arts Shuāi Jiāo and Sun Bin Quan, to name two, predate the establishment of the Shaolin Monastery by centuries.[24]
LET ME SEE YOU TRY TO DISPROVE ALL THAT. YOU CAN'T, BUT YOU'LL DENY IT AND COME UP WITH SOME BULLSHIT REBUTTAL THAT HAS NO FACTS.
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..BTW, YOUR LINGUISTIC EVIDENCE DOESN'T PROVE SHIT, PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME EXACTLY WHAT IT PROVES, NOTHING, NOT A DAMN THING.
gbb357 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@shobyms ..Now it's your turn, PLEASE SHOW FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF, NOT SPECULATIONS, NOT THEORY, NOT ASSUMPTIONS, NOT HERE SAY, NOT CLAIMS, DEFINITELY NOT CIRCUMSTANTIAL, LIKE "INDIA CIVILIZATION IS OLDER THAN CHINA THEREFORE IT INVENTED KUNG FU AND IT'S THE MOTHER OF ALL MARTIAL ART" BULLSHIT, JUST FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF. I DARE YOU AND I BEG YOU, YOU CANNOT AND YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO, PERIOD.
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms... BTW, if there's one credible & factual proof that Kung Fu did not come from India & kalaripayatu, just watch all, and i mean all of the videos here in youtube, THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO SIMILARITIES AT ALL, IN STYLE, EXECUTION, FLUIDITY, COORDINATION,& MORE IMPORTANTLY, TECHNIQUE. NONE WHATSOEVER. THE KICKS ALONE ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN TECHNIQUE & EXECUTION. JUST WATCH THIS VIDEO, ESPECIALLY THE EPIC FLYING KICK AT 7:12 & ALL OF THE OTHER KICKS, IT'S SLOPPY & THERE'S NO TECHNIQUE.
gbb357 5 months ago
what useless conflicts have been started here. everyone knows that bodhidharma took indian kalari art to shaolin which resulted into kung fu. if u train in any art, goju ryu, shorin ryu,kung fu etc. thru their history n lgends it is known that they trace their origins back to kalari n also that b4 bodhi shaolin monks were weak,feeble,diying due to their long meditations. bodhi taught them the physical training n fighting arts.
broulys1729 5 months ago
@broulys1729 ...No conflict at all. As long as there is no factual credible proof that Bodhi actually knew martial arts, and he actually taught martial arts, specifically Kung Fu, then this BULLSHIT CLAIM/LIE IS NOTHING MORE THAN A BULLSHIT CLAIM & LIE, PERIOD. Many if not most Kung Fu masters have repeatedly said that Kung Fu came from China, Eshan Shafiq who is a middle eastern and a Kung Fu master of 25yrs and many others have said the same thing. Am i to believe a master or you, think.
gbb357 5 months ago
@broulys1729 ..No conflict at all. As long as there is no factual credible proof that Bodhi actually knew martial arts, & he actually taught martial arts, specifically Kung Fu, then this BULLSHIT CLAIM/LIE IS NOTHING MORE THAN A BULLSHIT CLAIM & LIE, PERIOD. Many if not most Kung Fu masters have repeatedly said that Kung Fu came from China, Eshan Shafiq who is a middle eastern & a Kung Fu master of 25yrs & many others have said the same thing. Am i to believe a master or you, think about it.
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 "this BULLSHIT CLAIM/LIE.............. "
what bullshit claim is this???? bodhidharma went there n taught there.such descriptions r not only in martial arts legends but the whole budhism history also bears his account.bodhi was 28th or 29th successor of buddha n being a Kshtriya prince he learnt kalari as well. 29-30th one was chinese. the thing called "chan" in china and "Zen" in japan went from india. with it went the treasure of martial arts as well that laid down kung fu.
broulys1729 5 months ago
@broulys1729 ...SHOW ME FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF THAT BODHI TAUGHT KUNG FU, YOU CAN'T BECAUSE THERE IS NONE. IT'S A MADE UP STORY,A FOLKLORE, A MYTH, A LIE, A PROPAGANDA, NOTHING MORE.
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 first u shud show me the proof that he did not. watch a few tv documentries on martial arts, u wud find the shaolin masters saying about bodhi, the paintings at shaolin depicting indian and chinese training togther and all.
no 2 arts wud match each other completly as kung fu n karate. kung fu basics n forms r free flowing with high speed, karate basics n kata r rigid,not free flowing and focusing on power rather than speed. but that does"nt mean karate didnt come from kung fu.
broulys1729 5 months ago
@broulys1729 ...I have seen that painting from several websites, it doesn't prove anything other than bodhi was training with a shaolin monk. Of course no two arts would be exactly the same or else it wouldn't be two different type of arts. But you would always see similarities, like Karate & Tae Kwon Do, you can see the influence of Kung Fu from both of them. Just like you'll see the similarities between Jiu Jitsu & Judo.
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 " it doesn't prove anything other than bodhi was training with a shaolin monk."
no,no,no......if they r training togther it only means bodhi was teaching them. B4 bodhi they were so weak like nerds that they could not bear long lasting bodhi"s meditations and bodhi was a Kshtriya prince,warrior prince/king before he became buddhist. so a prince may not learn singing n dancing,painting or poetry but definitely learns warfare,martial arts etc.
So its bodhi whos teaching them.
broulys1729 5 months ago
Comment removed
gbb357 5 months ago
@broulys1729 ....Really, so your logic is if they're training together that means bodhi was teaching them, & how do you know this for sure. Do you have any facts to back this up with, or are you just adding more lies on top of a pile of shit lies. So why can't it be the other way around, how do you know for sure that the Shaolin monks didn't know martial arts already, again, where are your facts. Like i said, there are proven facts that the Chinese already knew martial arts way before bodhi came
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 and kalari has more than few(completely no 2 systems can match.even 2 different karate styles may differ as goju ryu n shorin ryu) techniques matching. watch some other vids. there u"ll c kicking and blocking as in karate and kung fu like mae/mawashi/yoko geris n ashi korma plus also circular blocking, elbow attacks,knee attacks.
broulys1729 5 months ago
@gbb357 Of course i did"nt c any use of knuckle fist but that is the modification we c in kung fu. the japanese adopted kung fu with modifications to give it their own colour n called it karate. same with other few korean martial arts. chinese also modified it but that does"nt mean kung fu did"nt come from kalari just as karate came from kung fu.
broulys1729 5 months ago
@gbb357 " Am i to believe a master or you,"
actually thats what I said before u. learn the histories as told by goju ryu,uechi ryu or shorin ryu masters. the shaolin temples r full of the accounts of bodhi"s visit, the meditation as well as the physical exercises. Bodhi had no intention of TEACHING ANY MARTIAL ART IN CHINA, he just went for the successor(which he cud not find in india) but monks there cud nt even withstand his penance.Then he taught kalari for their physical strength.
broulys1729 5 months ago
So is Indus valley Civilization? Do you know it pre-dates Chinese civilization? gee,it sounds me that you have not read the history yet. What an elementary thingy.. once again stop swearing as it will not get anywhere.
shobyms 5 months ago
I am not only replying to you but also to many others like you.Most of them had to agree in the end.So you are not a big deal to me and finally, you tend to swear when you debate.That is not acceptable and it shows how short tempered you are.It is a classic sign of ineptitude and suppression/oppression.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..Most of who agreed to what, if you're basing it on just Indians, then of course they'll agree to this bullshit lie, try to ask the rest of the martial arts community, you'll get a lot of laughter.
gbb357 5 months ago
Yea,you forgot to admit that I have read your comments so far,hey? I wanted that part to be clear about Bodhi and his 18 hands has a link to Kung fu.Because your opinion is based upon "bodhi has no martial art skills and he never taught it to Chinese".So I had to point it out.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ...The 18 hands doesn't prove anything, it's a fucking exercise. Did the 18 hands of Lohan derived from it, possibly & more than likely, but it doesn't mean that Kalaripayatu is the mother of all martial arts, and it certainly doesn't mean that China didn't have martial arts before it either, and it also doesn't mean that Bodhi taught Kung Fu. Why is it soo hard for you to get that simple logic, use your common sense. You do realize that Kung Fu is not just about the 18 hands of Lohan.
gbb357 5 months ago
If you can not prove the origin of Kung fu from CHINA,then we have to take the other possibilities.Because you are Chinese or Chinese supporter,the patriotism in you or the obstinacy in you ,can not do much.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ...I don't have to prove that Kung Fu came from China, everyone knows this and have accepted this as a fact. It's not till recently that the Kalaripayatu community have made this BULLSHIT LIE/CLAIM but has no credible factual proof to back it up with. You're the one that has to prove your BULLSHIT LIE/CLAIM. Again, i'm not Chinese, i'm American w/ German descent, & i am a huge & loyal fan of martial arts & especially Kung Fu, which what i am defending.
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..I don't have to prove that Kung Fu came from China, everyone knows this and have accepted this as a fact. It's not till recently that the Kalaripayatu community have made this BULLSHIT LIE/CLAIM but has no credible factual proof to back it up with. You're the one that has to prove your BULLSHIT LIE/CLAIM. Again, i'm not Chinese, i'm American w/ German descent, & i am a huge & loyal fan of martial arts & especially Kung Fu, which what i am defending.
gbb357 5 months ago
I could still go further but when you started swearing,I had to ignore you because your modicum of knowledge is just showing your low life. So would you do this suppression at home to your other family members ?
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ...If you can't take a little swearing, then you have a lot to learn in life. That's just an expression.
gbb357 5 months ago
arhat hands has no martial art skills? lol.. what about Lo han boxing then? or Arhat boxing..--->The characteristics of the Arhat boxing are plain and simple. It combines simplicity with the beauty of the expressions of the Arhats. It hides its combative skills and blows in the Arhat-like actions. Movements are smoothly comfortable and fully spread out with clear cut rhythms and the cooperation and coordination of attack and defence are rational.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ...You can't fucking read, i said that asshat has nothing do with the origins of martial arts, i didn't say it has no martial arts skills. Learn to read and comprehend.
gbb357 5 months ago
But Yellow Emperors story is under "mythology" and you proved to me that you are ignoring the scope of myths.You converted "myths" into facts.. lol Where are Bodhi dharma"s side has more evidences such as records and historical reports.So who is twisting here? me or you? Bodhidarma case isnt a myth.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..Bodhi the person is not a myth, the claim that he taught Kung Fu is, get it now.
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 yes bodhi is a person not a mythological idol like yellow emperor.. when you read the story about yellow emperor,it has been written " it is said to be" .. not as a factual one
shobyms 5 months ago
kalarigurukulam*com/html/kalaripayattu.html see the kalari animal styles.. lol
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..Wow, lol, nothing in there shows me any similarities. Does kalaripayatu have Dragon styles, which is not even an animal. Does it have Prey Mantis style, again not an animal, and other insect styles as well.
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms..The Yellow Emperor himself might be a Chinese myth, but the surrounding history about him are historical facts, the figure himself might be questionable. Which brings me back to this bullshit claim, it's nothing more than a myth without any credible facts, period.
gbb357 5 months ago
Another legendary figure during the same period was Chi You who is credited as the creator of “jiao di“, which is thought to be the predecessor of the modern Chinese Wrestling. According to Chinese Mythology, he was a tribal leader and tyrant who fought against the then future Yellow Emperor during the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors era.
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 wrestling existed to defend in military level in all countries. wrestling wasnt a martial art in comparison to Kung fu.. Chinese wrestling had no relation to Animals styles.So it begs the question that WHERE CHINA GOT ANIMAL STYLES".So it leads to favour Bodhidarma side. India practised martial arts such as Arian arts ( Tang Ta) or kalari. At the same time no other way to develop a style which encompasses animal styles or skilled art because it needs at least 10 years to develop.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..Wrong again, wrestling was & is a martial art, just like judo & jiu-jitsu. Chinese martial arts have animal styles, insects styles, & dragon styles. Damn you got owned twice. Nice try, buy you failed horribly.
gbb357 5 months ago
you have never showed any proof that China had Martial art skills before Bodhidarma but you pulled out a thread from "myths". So it is like saying Unicorn exists because of Mythology. Moreover,you asked " if Buddhism is from India,how can I prove Kung fu is from India", to this question my answer is, I never claimed in such a way.But i asked you to find the similarities.India never got anything from China in the relevant fields.As Buddhism travelled to other countries (Martial arts as well )
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..Wrong, didn't pull out of a thread called "myths", got it from a Kung Fu practitioner who is Indian called iampleasant*com. Read his article that i quoted that you obviously did not read, they're all from historical records & facts. Again, what does the religion or belief of buddhism has anything to do with Kung Fu, other than the Shaolin Monks practice both. I didn't ask anything about buddhism.
gbb357 5 months ago
Marma sastram (science) dates back at least 6000 years where China got no record of Accupressure/puncture.So where did China learnt these all? IF we have only 1 existing English speaking in this whole world today, after some years,If someone started to speak English, what is the deductive analysis? Would you rather continue claiming that English has been developed all of sudden from no where? even if it has been learnt out of scripts,still they need a link back to the existing person.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..So if accupressure/puncture was from India, that means India is the mother of all martial arts. Wow, how did you come to that conclusion. I guess that proves everything, even the internet came from India if that's the case. I think India invented the fucking wheel too.
gbb357 5 months ago
All you have done so far is pulling out evidence from Mythologies.. It is not scientific then.Period.Yellow Emperor claims are not historical.If so, how can 18 arhat hands been practised in Shaolin Temple? Without Bodhii Darma how they learnt that sanskrit word ? ATLEAST ANSWER, HOW ARHAT 18 OR Shaolin Luo Han Pu Shen Shi Ba Shou - Arhat Protect Body 18 Hands aka Da Tongbi Quan NAMED IN CHINA ? SO ARE YOU IGNORING IT? I KNOW YOU WOULD.IF YOU AGREE THAT POINT THEN your claims will be dismissed
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..Bodhiharma is a legend according to wiki, so is the Yellow Emperor. "Chinese legends attribute the origin of wushu during the oldest “Xia Dynasty” over 4000 years ago when the Yellow Emperor Huangdi who according to legends reigned from 2697 to 2597 BCE created the earliest fighting systems in China. The Chinese describe him as a famous general who wrote lengthy treatises on medicine, astrology and martial arts before becoming the ruler of China."
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..You're missing the point completely, there were already martial arts existed before Bodhidarma. '"The best examples of ancient Chinese martial arts practiced before the arrival of Bodhidharma are “Shǒubó“, practiced during the Shang dynasty (1766–1066 BCE) and “Xiang Bo” (similar to modern Sanda), practiced from the 7th century BCE."
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..Sure it's historical & factual, you don't agree with so you'll say it's not. "The Han History Bibliographies have accurately recorded on the distinction between no-holds barred weaponless fighting called shǒubó, for which “how-to” manuals were written and sportive wrestling, then known as juélì or jiǎolì during the Former Han (206 BCE – 8 CE) period. Further, information on wrestling can also be found in the Shǐ Jì, Records of the Grand Historian, written by Sima Qian (ca. 100 BCE)."
gbb357 5 months ago
only loop hole for you now is prove ARHAT 18 IS NOT FROM India.To prove that prove ARHAT isnt an Indian-sankrit word.. try your best.. good luck
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..What ever the asshat 18 is from, has nothing to do with the origins of martial arts, really doesn't. Don't need to prove anything, you on the other hand have to prove that martial arts claim from India, since you're condoning that bullshit claim that no other martial arts have the audacity & arrogance to make such bullshit claim with no factual credible proof, none, fucking zero.
gbb357 5 months ago
Chinese legends attribute the origin of wushu during the oldest “Xia Dynasty” over 4000 years ago when the Yellow Emperor Huangdi who according to legends reigned from 2697 to 2597 BCE created the earliest fighting systems in China. The Chinese describe him as a famous general who wrote lengthy treatises on medicine, astrology and martial arts before becoming the ruler of China.
gbb357 5 months ago
Apart from all these, the Chinese Dragon style kung fu is a highly unique animal kung fu style totally based on the philosophies and myths pertaining to the mythical and legendary Chinese Dragon found in folklores.Like any other martial art, wushu evolved because of the need for self defense, hunting and military training. All these requirements created unique styles of hand to hand as well as weapons techniques for soldiers, imperial guards, merchants etc.
gbb357 5 months ago
For instance, within the snake style itself there is cobra and viper systems which affects the opponent in different ways just as the bites of these two snakes affect their victims.Further, the concept of birds, insects etc are unique to Chinese fighting systems and have no relation whatsoever to any Indian fighting system. In addition to that, there are weapon systems unique to these animal styles like the monkey staff and the straight sword and spear in snake style.
gbb357 5 months ago
The animal systems in Chinese martial arts are much more advanced since they mimic the animals and adapt from it in highly refined manners which includes fist positions, stances, footwork, shouting etc.In Chinese wushu, the practitioner must temporarily transform himself into the animal while practising and the “dim mak” or pressure point attack is performed so as to mimic the effect of the said animal’s attack.
gbb357 5 months ago
We need to pay particular attention to the concept of mimic boxing here because there is an assumption that the concept of mimicking animals in fighting came from Kalaripayattu. That is also far from the truth because the animal concepts taught in Kalaripayattu speaks only about certain postures, jumps etc.
gbb357 5 months ago
Thus, it is very clear and evident that martial arts were well established in China centuries before the arrival of Bodhidharma or the construction of the Shaolin temple. Almost all of the philosophical as well as technical aspects of Chinese Martial arts were already well developed before Bodhidharma or Buddhism itself (which arrived in China between only 221 – 206 BCE). It is also logically fallacious to assume that Bodhidharma had introduced martial arts to China.
gbb357 5 months ago
However, from the 16th century onwards, the Shaolin system flourished to epic proportions when it became an integral part of monastic life of the monks. The theory also revolves around just one Shaolin temple in Henan province when in fact there are many such temples in Fujian, Omeishan etc teaching and practising different forms of wushu.
gbb357 5 months ago
The oldest evidence of the participation of Shaolin in combat has been recorded in 728 AD which describes two incidents in which defense of the monastry took place from bandits around 610 AD and the defeat of Wang Shichong at the Battle of Hulao in 621 AD. There are no documented evidence of Shaolin’s participation in combat from the 8th to the 15th centuries.
gbb357 5 months ago
The “Han Shu“, written during the Former Han Dynasty by Pan Ku included “Six Chapters of Hand Fighting” in the years between AD 39 and AD 92. Noted physician Hua Tuo composed the “Five Animals Play” which included the movements of tiger, deer, monkey, bear, and bird around 220 BC.The role of Shaolin Temple in influencing the development of Chinese martial arts happened much later in the history of China.
gbb357 5 months ago
These examples demonstrate how wushu changed with the evolving society over time and acquired a philosophical basis. many practitioners of Taoism used to perform a set of physical exercises similar to today’s qigong called “Dao Yin” as early as 500 BC which many believe is the predecessor of Tai Chi Chuan.
gbb357 5 months ago
For instance, in the “Passages in Zhuangzi“, a Taoist text written by the eponymous author Zhuangzi who is supposed to have lived in the 4th century BC, describes psychology and practice of martial arts. Another Taoist text, “Tao Te Ching“, written by Lao Tzu, the founder of Taoism contains several principles applicable in martial arts, especially in the internal systems.
gbb357 5 months ago
The Tang Dynasty poet Li Bai has written accounts of sword dances. During the Song and Yuan dynasties, contests of an art called “xiangpu” were sponsored by the imperial courts and by the Ming and Qing dynasties, the modern concepts of wushu were fully developed.The Chinese philosophical texts have extensive accounts on the martial arts.
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 ; i think you are ignoring the factual info not me.. what is Arhat boxing then. you claimed arhat has nothing to do with martial art skills.. so if you do not know what is arhat boxing,then go learn. However the purpose of arhat boxing is multipurpose. 1. stretch or physical strength 2, defense ( boxing) like Mantis boxing.Currently, not many know arhat boxing style but they use it as chi kung exercises. pathetic.. it is very clear that you want to ignore and bash ( chinese proud ,huh)
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..Again, you can't read & comprehend, i said that asshat has nothing to do with the origins of martial arts. And what do you mean by Chinese proud, i'm American with German background.
gbb357 5 months ago
NO INDIA = NO CHINA.. check your history books ( how India contributed to China from BC 5000 ) .Sorry, i do not want to teach history but go and find if you want to know otherwise keep bashing as a troll.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..So now you're claiming that if it wasn't for India there will be no China, that's even more ludicrous than the bodhidarma bullshit claim, LOL. Sure India contributed and influenced China, but to say there's no China if it wasn't for India, that's pretty fucking arrogant. You do realize that Chinese civilization has been around way before 5000BC. Go read and learn will ya.
gbb357 5 months ago
gbb357 : jiao di has no relation to Shaolin Kung fu.. So do not compare.. there is no major comparison between both.But when you do it with kalari,you will see more.. your evidences are for jiao di not for HOW JIAO DI BECAME SHAOLIN KUNG FU. you quoted it from a chinese favouring website..ahaha... you couldnt find any wikipedia atleast? lol.. it is undeniable that bodhi taught them because ANIMAL STYLES EXISTED BEFORE BODHIDARMA..
shobyms 5 months ago
The theory of hand to hand combat that includes integration of the concepts of “hard” and “soft” techniques have been expounded in the story of the “Maiden of Yue in the Spring” and “Autumn Annals of Wu and Yue” written during 5th century BCE.
gbb357 5 months ago
The Han History Bibliographies have accurately recorded on the distinction between no-holds barred weaponless fighting called shǒubó, for which “how-to” manuals were written and sportive wrestling, then known as juélì or jiǎolì during the Former Han (206 BCE – 8 CE) period. Further, information on wrestling can also be found in the Shǐ Jì, Records of the Grand Historian, written by Sima Qian (ca. 100 BCE).
gbb357 5 months ago
The “Classics of Rites” written in the 1st century BCE describe a combat wrestling system called “juélì” or “jiǎolì” which used strikes, throws, joint manipulation and pressure point attacks. During the Qin Dynasty (221–207 BCE), Jiao Di became a sport.
gbb357 5 months ago
The best examples of ancient Chinese martial arts practiced before the arrival of Bodhidharma are “Shǒubó“, practiced during the Shang dynasty (1766–1066 BCE) and “Xiang Bo” (similar to modern Sanda), practiced from the 7th century BCE. It was in 509 BCE that Confucius suggested Duke Ding of Lu that people should practice martial arts alongside literary arts thereby beginning an era of martial arts where laypeople outside the military and religious sects started practicing them.
gbb357 5 months ago
So what Yoga has to do with Hinduism? do you see the relation there? Buddhism has relation with Kung fu because Only Shaolin temples were teaching kung fu ( mainly) in China.Of course,Buddhist Monks taught Kung fu so it is related to Buddhism. I know about Kalari because I have experienced and learnt it a bit. Marmas are almost same as Chinese Accupoints or Chi points.If you are ignoring those, you are just a contrarian, I guess. I already admitted that there is no empirical proof.
shobyms 5 months ago
I think gbb357 purposefully avoiding the record about Bodhi"s kung fu skills.He practised Kalari and Dravidian stick fight while he was in India.Deuctively, there is no way that China could get martial arts apart from Bodhi because no martial art skills were being taught in Shaolin.got to read the story of Bodhi. however, it needs deductive reading and a bit of probability theory.. take it easy anyway.. it is your choice what you want to believe. martial art never pays my bills..lol
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..Wrong again, martial arts already existed in China way before this guy Bodhi that only knew Yoga. You can believe this LIE all you want, doesn't really matter, don't care. Bottom line is, it's all a BULLSHIT CLAIM AND LIE, THAT HAS NO FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF, PERIOD. LOL:)
gbb357 5 months ago
@shobyms ..I'm not avoiding anything, you on the other hand are avoiding all the proof that i have given. Check page 3 or 4 and check "Kalari TRUTH: Phillip Zarrilli in wikipedia and check iampleasant.
gbb357 5 months ago
@gbb357 : Are we critically analysing ? Phillip Zarrilli"s opinion has to be proven otherwise be hypothetical.First of all, you havent had any experience with Kerala or Kalari but conjecturally criticizing it. en.wikipedia*org/wiki/Shaolin_Kung_Fu states clearly the origin of kung fu ( shaolin) was with Bodhidarma.
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..Phillip Zarrilli's research are based on historical facts and findings, not opinions or speculations. This bullshit claim is based on speculation, lie, & propaganda. Again, just look at the sloppy kicks on all of the kalaripayatu videos, they're not even remotely close to Kung Fu. Sorry, try again.
gbb357 5 months ago
Some Chinese accounts describe Bodhidharma as being disturbed by the poor physical shape of the Shaolin monks, after which he instructed them in techniques to maintain their physical condition as well as teaching meditation. He is said to have taught a series of external exercises called the Eighteen Arhat Hands (Shi-ba Lohan Shou), and an internal practice called the Sinew Metamorphosis Classic en.wikipedia.*org/wiki/Bodhidharma_at_Shaolin#Bodhidharma_at_Shaolin
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..You obviously didn't read any of the suggestions i gave you and you're obviously in denial. Bodhi guy simply taught the monks how to exercise and buddhism, nothing more. He had no clue of any martial arts as far as historical facts go, but you can speculate all you want.
gbb357 5 months ago
Perhaps, you are a Chinese or dislike Indians so you favour the counterpart. If you have read the history of Bodhi Darma,it is very clear that he taught Eighteen Arhat Hands (Shi-ba Lohan Shou) wikipedia also pinned many references. arhat means = worthy one or saint.. Chinese still use that word "arhat" from Samskritham.. so pity if you ignore these. How could Chinese get Indian terms without Bodhi ?
shobyms 5 months ago
@shobyms ..Me Chinese, not even close. American with German descent buddy. Not that it really matters. Anyway, you're linking all these other bullshit and making up your conclusion that because the Chinese have studied Buddhism and used words from India, that automatically means Kung Fu came from China, hahahha, LMFAO. OMG what kind of a logic is that.
gbb357 5 months ago
Kalari Truth has no proof to debunk ,but they want to establish the supremacy of Chinese origin( perhaps) . study an art well dear brother.find the similarities in both.you ignored to answer the animal styles in Kalari and compare to Kung fu. what about Marmas vs accupressure ? Hard for you to admit it? India has a record of wisdoms ( proven) before China. obviously, you are avoiding many things there and attacking the weak points.However,evidences outweighs your position.
shobyms 5 months ago