If they wanted to give the Jem'Hadar a big scary intro, they should have pitted the Odyssey against a lot more enemy ships, or just had them destroy a Miranda or something.
"Captain, they're using some kind of super, condom sheids, with polerone dildo spermerz!!!!!" "DAMN! Convert all power to frontal condom, latex-dog styled condom shields!!!!!"
basically the reason why the jem'hadar was punching through the odyssey's shields was a beam called a "Phased polaron beam" that beam was something that starfleet never knew about or experience with that type of weaponry yet. thus the federation ships were powerles against it til the SF finally came up with new modulation to the shield harmonics and frequencies which came in handy to help the federation turn the tide.
Some pretty good moments in this series, it always reminded me of a lesser version of Babylon 5 though. Especially when the 'Dominion War' storyline started.
Sure, Avery Brookes CANNOT act, neither could Terry Farrell (which is why her character was removed from the tv show "Becker").
Furthermore, it was DS9 that AGAIN copied B5 when it began using CGI...after trek producers first claimed they would never go there. B5 had a much smaller budget, but did well with what it had. If you are going to argue that DS9 was better for that reason then you might as well claim the Star Wars prequels are the best movies ever.
According to it, kids want the deaths of their parents. But as we grow up this is resolved AND WE DON'T KILL THEM, neither we exile them from their homes (aka "Get the hell out of our galaxy"). Instead it is us that move away and start our own families. If the kids exile/kill or hurt their parents in any other way then the children face the consequences and become tragic figures that suffer from their choices. They do not become the religion venerated icons Delen and Sheridan did.
Allow me to say a few more things about the "Mommy/Daddy" issue as it is so important. It is not so much it's existence that bothers me but the fact that it suddenly appeared and how it was resolved. In way that is, that disagrees with the psychoanalytic theory that it is based upon.
As for the "Dominion War" vs "Shadow War" storylines? Lets see. The Dominion War started for reasons that are comparable with wars that have already happened. You know...
...in reality. The fear and misconception of the Founders towards the "solids", the racism the Founders had experienced etc. Compare that to the pure evil Shadows that was the initial reason behind the Shadow War and the "Mommy/Daddy" issue that came towards the end (just 2 or 3 episodes that is) and how this was resolved.
Actually, it is apparent that you have not watched that which you criticize. The Shadows were NOT pure evil. They and the Vorlons were actings as the Americans and the Soviets did during the cold war - attempting to control and manipulate the fates of satellite states, which is completely realistic.
The Dominon were just typical bad guys - not much different from any other Trek bad guy. They could easily be confused with any other villian in either trek or Star Wars (the empire).
Let's take just the Jem'Hadar. Genetically engineered to worship the Founders, yet it is necessary to have them addicted to a drug without which they die. (nature vs nurture anyone?) Some they rebel, yet others follow the Founders regardless of the addiction. For just a glimpse of that see the season 4 episode "To the Death". Just this episode gives more depth to just the Jem'Hadar than the entire B5 series to the Shadows, their lackies and the Vorlon combined.
@NotDuncan UBER LOL. You've got that wrong. It is B5 that is a lesser version of DS9. B5 had the most unrealistic enemies, that were shown as pure evil. You know blowing up planets and all. Compare that to the complexity of the Founders, Jem'Hadar and Vorta.
Nah. DS9 was just a rip-off of B5. JMS presented his idea to Paramount and they stole it. B5 was more innovative and had more realistic characters with realistic problems (drinking, etc.). The show inspired everything from the remake of the Battlestar Galactica series to stargate SG-1 and even Star Trek (which Enterprise tried to copy in many ways). They also had more realistic enemies with realistic motivations - the Dominion was hardly realistic....just more typical bad guys.
B5 also had more interesting and realistic aliens - the makeup and design, of which, was unquestionably superior. Star Trek is still stuck with pathetic bumpy forehead aliens-of-the-week.
DS9 rip-offs:
1) Cardassia invades and conquers Bajor vs. Centauri invade and conquer Narn (both victims resent and hate occupiers).
2) Terrorism: the Circle vs. B5's homegaurd (both are are xenophobic).
3) Big interstellar war. Founders believed in "order" so did B5's Vorlons.
4) DS9 is located next to a wormhole. B5 is located next to an artificial wormhole generator.
5) Both stations become strategically important.
6) Sisko starts off as a Commander, so does B5's Sinclair.
7) Sisko lost his wife before arriving at DS9, so did B5's captain Sheridan.
8) The DS9 character Shakar is basically a priest. B5's G'hkar became an "enlightened" religious figure (their names are also almost identically pronounced).
9) DS9's Leeta vs B5's Lyta Alexander (name rip-off)
True, they were shameless in their plot stealing.Terrible. May trek rest in peace. Maybe someone will wise up one day and remake B5. Unlike Enterprise, that would be an entertaining show.
With your "logic" the following are B5 rip offs from Trek. a) space story, b) FTL capability, c) Aliens, d) spacefaring alien races, e) EarthForce uses naval rank as Starfleet does, f) spaceships, g) interstellar wars, h) powerful, almost god-like aliens, i) very old alien races, j) human space colonies, k) telepaths, l) starfaring empires, m) in B5 there was "Lyta Alexander" and in Trek there is Alexander Rozhenko son of Worf, n) energy weapons etc.
Not to mention that while B5 franchise is dead, Trek is very much alive with blockbuster movies. You may not like them, but they are here, NOW, so how the fuck Trek rests in peace? If anything Trek is very much alive and you hate it. Fine hate it as much as you like, but there is the objective truth that it is very much alive. You saying that it rests in peace, proves my point that you are in a delirium.
You would wish that Trek rests in peace. After B5 there were some really really REALLY bad series in the B5 universe made by the same guy that made B5. Am I wrong? While Trek continued with Voyager and Enterpise, that while not my favorite are 1000 times better than the Crusade and this sci fi discrace that had "Rangers" in it's title.
Something similar goes for the storyline as well. As DS9's story was not about secrets and mysteries, but about politics and personal decisions etc it is still watchable. In cotrast we know the answers to B5 mysteries and there is little to offer us anymore. It's like an old joke. This is something that are facing all series, and stories in general, that base themeselves in mysteries.
Neither good special effects and/or big budgets equal bad movies. A good movie/series/novel is good because of the story. This is why I am (and was) focusing in this. I only mentioned acting and special effects in two lines, while I analysed the bad story of B5 in three or four entire messages. So, getting back to special effects, it was logical for B5 to use cheap CGI that now makes it un-watchable in this regard, while DS9 used more expensive technologies that still look OK.
It is called human nature. You may be a stubborn fool that never does change his mind, but the rest of us are not. And as you mentioned the higher budget DS9 had, this is exactly why B5 used CGI first. At the time CGI was cheaper (and worse) than the best classic (and superior) effects. So regarding special effects DS9 was better. But good special effects don't make a good show.
And your absurdities continue. Is using a new technology copying?! Then B5 copied the first talkie (movie) and the first movie that used colors instead of black and white film! And my point that DS9 had better effects stands. When B5 used CGI it was a new technology and sucked, while the already known technologies were at their top and were producing amazing outcomes. When CGI became good enough Trek used it. And Trek's producers as most of us can change their minds.
....again. I never said that DS9 was the pinnacle of acting. What I (and most people) did say was that the actors of DS9 were better than those of B5. The same goes for directing.
Yet, what is exceptional in Trek (thus in DS9 too) is the depth at which the "bad guy" is explored. Something we don't see every day. A WWII movie might explore how the German citizents felt and behave while another might not. In both cases we have an ordinary and very real bad guy, but in the first case the bad guy is explored while in the second is not. In the first case there is an extra dramatic effect while in the second there is not.
There was nothing extraordinary about the Nazis. They were humans. One head, two hands. Some were really bad people. Others were following because of fear. Yet others followed because some people like lies and fairy tales that are being told, that they are superior. There was nothing extraordinary about these real "bad guys". They were just humans. Imperfect humans like you and me. SO are the "bad guys" in Trek. Unlike the extraordinary with a twist and cherry on top of unrealism in B5.
As for how "evil" the Shadows were depicted? Well their name says it all. They were depicted for most of the series as the evil of High Fantasy novels. Dark, Shadows, we knew nothing about their society, we barely show them. Even how they looked was "evil". And in the end, they performed Genocide en masse. As for your typical bad guys i will agree in a way. There was nothing extraordinary about the Dominion, AS IT WAS A REALISTIC ENEMY. Realistic enemies are not extraordinary, they are "typical"
In B5 it was established in the last episode that all Vorlons and Shadows wanted were to prove they were right. And for this they were compared to parents. This is quite different from the US and the USSR interest, that was money and power. It was quite materialistic and not ideological. Sure there was this shroud about ideology but it was a lie. In contrast this is exactly what the Dominion DID. It ceased planets and territory for it's interest. And it was an obey or die dilemma.
The Shadows and the Vorlons had nothing in common with the US and the USSR. In B5 they are called "shepards" as they guided and were teaching the "younger" races and they were "old". The US and the USSR were the most powerful among equals.
13) For starters that would be a motif if it were true. You know like "Jesus ascended", "Mohammed ascended", "Hercules ascended" etc. Only that Sisko did not disappear. Neither it was the end for him. Sheridan does share the above motif.
12) Actually this is quite different for the following reasons. a) Cardassia was the enemie's (Dominion) HQ, while Earth was the "good guys''" home. b) Cardassia's battle was linked to the Dominion war whereas the battle of Earth in B5 happened after the conclusion of the main storyline (shadow war). So the only similarity is that both were big space battles around a planet! Are you THAT stupid?
And here I want to mention that the fact that Paramount had B5's draft means shit. Paramount did NOT make DS9. DS9's producers and writers did. Paramount was paying blah blah blah but when it comes to the creative work these guys have nothing good to say. Unless it was a conspiracy! UBER LOL.
And don't get me the whole "Paramount had JMS' draft", because these things are not in a draft. Not to mention that B5 ripped off Trek when later it used shileds of sorts. You know the whole "absurbance" in the Excalibur line of ships! Technologically it may (or not) be different, but the concept was the same. SHIELDS, protections against the energy weapons of the adversary.
11) Have you seen the shields in TNG? In Voyager? In TOS? Have you quantified the differences? And this whole theory of yours is highly speculative. Not to mention that DS9 was brocasted before B5 YOU MORON! How something that was depicted first is a rip off from that, that was depicted later?
10) There was no coup on B5. Have you at least seen THIS show? It clear you have not see DS9. Clark did not made a coup. He did rise in power through manipulations and murder but this is not a coup. There was no deposition of the Earth's government. As a matter of fact there was the legal continuation of it. The fact that Earth's goverment became tottalitarian blah blah does not equal a coup. In Paradise Lost there was an attempt from certain members of Starfleet to take power. That IS a coup.
8) I take it you mean Shakaar Edon who was not a religious figure. He was a warrior, a terrorist, a freedom fighter (depending your POV) and a politician. Have you seen DS9? And you know how to pronounce it but not write it down?!
6) This kind of absurdities of yours need a special section.
7) Sheridan was NOT part of the original story JMS had made. When Sheridan was created Sisko was already established as a widower. Do you know what that makes it? A B5 rip off! Thank you for pointing this one out.
5) Like dah! Yeah, every show's premise is important. It would be boring if it wasn't. It would have been pointless. Lost had the island, BSG had the last Battlestar, TOS and TNG had the Starfleet's flagship and on and on. What did you expect? But HOW, WHY they are important is quite different.
4) Really? I mean really?! Wormholes in Trek where established like when JMS was a kid. Allow me to counter your "argument" saying that any show that shows a faster than light capability is a rip off of the Original Star Trek. THIS absurd your "argument" is! Not to mention that B5 was NOT near an artificial wormhole. A jump gate is quite different from a wormhole.
3) AGAIN a motif. If a big interstellar was is a rip off, then all sci fi stories with it are a rip off of a story that Lucian of Samosata made in antiquity! Order vs Chaos is the same, and the way the Founders were approaching what you think as "belief in Order" is quite different than what B5 was showing. These questions, these desires are there for all humans and can be found in numerous sci fi (and not) stories.
2) The Circle? You mean this organisation that was there for like 3 episodes? Really? Well flash news for you but in the "Ensign Ro" episode that I mentioned before it was already established that the Bajorans were fighting for their freedom through acts of terrorism. So, as far as terrorism goes TNG was there first and inheritted this to DS9. Not to mention that xenophobia is once more a motif and all that. Last but not least xenophobia is a recurring theme in Trek since the Original Series.
Not to mention that it was done better, and it had more prominent role in DS9. In B5 it was just a backstory at first and later a manipulation of the Big Bad Shadows shown in a few episodes. In DS9 it was always there. Almost in every episode, even those that were not heavily about it. Not to mention that it came from TNG to DS9 and from there transcended to Voyager.
OF COURSE NOT YOU MORON! The Bajoran/Cardassian and the Narn/Centauri storylines are similar but this is not a rip off because there is a trans-human desire and message behind them. Other earlier similar stories have existed before both of them, and new ones are being created every day. Again, even if I am wrong it is a B5 rip off as the Bajoran/Cardassian storyline that was established at least 2 years before B5.
Events that have happened to many nations and many people. There is the Armenian Genocide and the Jew Genocide and the ..... Genocide. Is this a rip off? If I make a movie about the Armenian Genocide is it a rip off of the Holocaust movies? If I "conceal" my reference to the Armenian Genocide in a sci fi environment will it be a rip off? If another movie maker wants to tell his opinion, his view, is it a rip off?
1) The Bajorans and their resistance were established in the 1991 episode of TNG "Ensign Ro". You know like 2 whole fucking years before B5 and another Trek series! So even if this is a rip-off it is a B5 rip off. But for me it isn't. It is a motif, a story that draws comparison from real life events and repeatadly are being made into fictional stories.
First of all it is absurd to say that Batllestar Galactica and the Stargate franchise were inspired by Babylon 5. BSG for one was a remake of a seventies show. You know like decades before B5. As for Stargate, this is based on the ancient astronaut theory which is unrelated to B5. Just with these it is clear that you are one of those assholes that think that "their" show is better somehow and live their lives around this fantasy of theirs. It is pitiful.
@Robocain1 First of all you did not answer any of my points. And my points were not about who did what first, but who did it better. Not that you are right when you are saying that DS9 ripped off B5, but still. You just went on and on with your delirium. Anyway I will answer to it. (As always ultimate geek alert!)
@mokwella I always thought that was an oddity of Star Trek. How many episodes of TNG show the Enterprise in some kind of danger? And they have kids with them!
It stinks 2 c a galaxy go down. Even though by the 2370's they were the largest, fastest, & most powerful ships starfleet had in it's inventory they were just 2 big for this kind of combat. Smaller ships just turn circles around them. It also doesn't help that the federations emphasis on diplomacy & exploration meant that the galaxy class was not as formidable as it could have been. I wonder if a soverign class or a nebula class ship would have survived this fight.
@BlindMansRevenge2002 Due to the modular design, a Galaxy-class could've been made into a beast of a warship; they just didn't have the time to (and didn't think they needed to) properly outfit Odyssey beforehand. Think about all the specialized, mission-specific labs, and all those cargo bays, you may have seen in TNG episodes and realize that the Galaxy-class has up to 50% of its space dedicated to such uses.
Now realize that a combat-oriented Galaxy-class could have that space dedicated to extra shield and phaser power generators and additional redundant combat systems, not to mention that a lot of those systems are automated, so environmental requirements would be substantially reduced.
Additionally: starship combat was basically a big game of rock paper scissors in Star Trek: seems like as soon as you get through the shields the actual ship is basically cheese just waiting to become swiss cheese. This scene is a classical example thereof. Also the Enterprise-D in its destruction. If you bypassed the shields, they were screwed. We also see this with the Defiant with the Breen EMP-type weapon.
@CaitiVoltaire This battle was basically one "lightened" Battleship, and two Torpedo Boats versus what looked like three "Cruisers" (JH Attack Ships fit in the lower end of the Cruiser or upper end of the Destroyer spectrum, depending who you ask). The JH had a huge advantage in being able to bypass SF shields at will. They also deliberately targeted the warp nacelles to destroy the ship's power relays and probably to cause a core breach.
Galaxy class is basically like a man'o'war. Big, unwieldly, but they hit like a brick sh*thouse.. basically a galaxy class was used as this scene as cannon-fodder for the writers to say "hey, they just blew up a flagship easily! Look how powerful they are!" Kind of a starship version of the Worf effect.
@CaitiVoltaire Pre-DW Galaxies could be classed as (VERY expensive) Battlecruisers in terms of weapons capability, or Battleships for size. Events of the Dominion War and their deployment on-screen suggest they were heavily refit (as supported by some non-official sources) into something closer to a battleship. They were still more "target" and less "weapons platform" for their size and really better off as explorers, not warships.
@CaitiVoltaire of course the problem with that was since both Worf and the Enterprise D were easily overpowered by any alien they encountered it lost credibility since it got to the point we expected them to be overpowered. I was actually surprised when either Worf or the Enterprise D overcame anyone!
@LtRacjack12 - Yeah, it was definetely problematic that they did it so often, as it undermines the credibility of the ship as capable, and likewise Worf as a warrior.
@CaitiVoltaire The Galaxies were very capable general-purpose exploration, scientific, diplomatic and first contact vessels with provision for self defense. They were not capable as warships. Perhaps post-refit Galaxies bolstered their systems, but without physical/structural modifications to add more phasers and torpedo tubes, Galaxies in a weapon system sense are best used like old "Protected Cruisers" in a WW1-style battle line.
@LtRacjack12 Truth of it is - despite the scripting - the 1701D was only modestly armed given its size. 12 Phaser Arrays, 3 Torpedo Tubes and 250 Torpedoes. Given its mass, if it was constructed as a warship, I'd expect double that number. For comparison, Voyager is considered a light cruiser and had 14 Phaser Arrays and five Tubes. I've said elsewhere that Galaxies were some odd sub-type of cruiser (Command/Exploration), the (lack of) standard weapons really support this.
@DanielKnyphausen The Galaxy class was originally a humanitarian, exploration, science, and diplomatic transport ship. That said, the Galaxy was on par with most Warships of it's era, including the Romulan D'deridex class, The Cardassian Keldon class, and the Ferengi D'Kora class. The Klingon Negh'Var warship was heavily outmatched fighting a Galaxy Class. So the Galaxy was impressive as a warship, compared to it's contemporaries.
@DanielKnyphausen During the Dominion war the Galaxy class ships saw numerous improvements during refits, and was further improved as a fleet anchor, and flag ship. You also have to take in to account that the Defiant class, and Intrepid Class were both later ships, and designed for more heavy combat. As well at the time almost all the major factions were going through fleet upgrades, due to the Dominion War. Comparing Enterprise D to Defiant or Voyager is unrealistic.
@CommandoDude They were reconfigurable to a degree. During the Dominion War, it's been explained, Galaxies were refitted and families were removed - a point Picard brought up quite a few years earlier. Most of the space saved went to shuffling systems around to make way for more phaser capacity, shields and probably Photons. From Galactic Explorer to Battleship in one very expensive make-over.
@DanielKnyphausen Doesn't change the fact an obscene amount of space is wasted on luxurious living quarters, and spacious hallways/rooms. The bridge is unnecessarily huge.
@CommandoDude True, I believe Picard made similar comments in the first episode, and Scotty even regarded his accommodations as better than a fleet admiral's in his day. Some of the opulence, of course, is important as Galaxies seem to have been used as diplomatic ships. As for bridge size, Keogh commanded from the battle bridge, it seems, for this engagement. Galaxy bridges were designed to look "softer" and less militaristic, possibly to project a nonthreatening atmosphere.
@DanielKnyphausen It is possible that the Galaxies were repurposed for war following the battle at Wolf 359, as part of the same program which produced the Defiant-class ships.
@williamskidfears I believe that's part of what Commander Shelby was doing on the D - she had been working on anti-Borg measures following Q's little "Oh, by the way, these are Borg." thing - and that is evaluating what was considered the best ship of the time. Tactics, systems, crew, etc. The Defiants were originally supposed to be anti-Borg ships. It's a very wasteful approach to build entire classes to counter specific threats, though (See USS Alaska from WW2).
@DanielKnyphausen Except, the Defiants proved to have more than sufficent firepower to take out more than just Borg, or were at least modified to become generalist warships.
And, the fact that it's wasteful doesn't stop a government from doing it anyway, like with the Alaska-class CBs.
@CommandoDude See, I do agree with you here. Ralph Offenhouse even got this impression when he was unfrozen in 2364. Galaxies were designed to be emissaries of peace, diplomacy, and discovery.. with some capability of self defense far less than their size would suggest. Perhaps the seldom-used classification "Command Cruiser" would be more appropriate when describing them, instead of Battlecruiser, Battleship or Panzerschiffe.
The idea to destroy a Galaxy class Starship, was show even if Picard was command they still would have been destroyed. Basically its a good way of showing how tough and serious the dominion was meant to be. And it worked, I remember watching it when it first aired and I was shocked because Star Trek before didnt have a dark tone and to have a sad ending and it was excellent because before you had a kind of a nice utopia feeling towards everything , for me makes DS9 the best show
I'm still very confused: the Galaxy-Class is the cream of the crop, biggest, most baddest ass vessel -- at the time -- in Starfleet, yet it fires off two phaser bursts and gets taken by 3 ships barely larger than the Roundabouts. Also, a Galaxy-Class Ship is destroyed and NO ONE is being brought before a review board? That'd be like USN losing an Aircraft Carrier and people in the Navy just shrugging, saying "Oh well, plenty of more where that came from"! That's career-ending stuff.
There's no one to bring before a board of inquiry. The ship was lost with all hands. And the runabouts weren't directly responsible for the Odyssey, their crews were probably debriefed, the sensor logs reviewed, and they were probably cleared of all blame.
@ZeroB4NG I don't think she even realised that Odo was a Founder, after all he just looks like a humanoid/solid of some kind of alien race. Unless she did know that he was a Founder ( after all they already knew alot about the Alpha Qaud and who is who in it) but didn't want to give that information away until it was best for them to do so.
@fpsBeaTt Ahahaha! You know what's funny? As I was watching this again I was thinking to myself "that crazy Galaxy-class fanboy was probably suicidal after this episode". And look, here you are whining and crying! Without fail you are once again present making up fake fantastical abilities for your beloved ship. No rant about it being superior to the Sovie though? Come on, you're slipping!
I still hate Rick Berman for what he did to TNG: in '94 all in the same week, he
1. ended TNG t it's high
2. destroyed the Odyssey (Enterprise lookalike) in DS9
3. destroyed the Enterprise in 'Generations'
and years later he messed up TNG completely with 'Nemesis'.
I really hope that JJ Abrams or someone else will restore TNG to it's former glory, in one way or another. At least a good sendoff with the original cast or new voyages with an alt-cast.
..... Are you fucking kidding me??? True, Rick Bermas was bad for Star Trek but JJ Abrams is far worse!!! In one single movie, Abrams and crew:
1. Destroyed Vulcan and completely fucked up the timeline
2. Changed the way Romulans look (Vulcans and Romulans are basically supposed to be the same race with different politics ... reference to North and South Korea)
3. Placed an undergrad cadet (Kirk) into the captain's chair of the flagship vessel in Starfleet (like that would ever happen)
@baq2cali #1: you do know both timelines still exist right? 2009 ST didn't erase the original one (some complicated Star Trek AU-physics things that happened in TNG... look it up) In my opinion, Abrams made a good call in that regard since his Star Trek is meant for a newer generation with new stories not tied down to the complicated canon already established. #2 ??? #3: Your right, that was the big mistake and the most implausible thing too cause Starfleet is still a defense organization.
@mightywibble Why not? Star Trek was always designed to be thought-provoking. The setting, despite being futuristic, was supposed to provide a platform for exploration of modern-day issues.
Honestly lucky for the JemHadar that their weapons tech had not been previously encountered before. In a square fight those little ships would not have had a chance against a Galaxy class starship, there are few who can.
I always hated how the Odyssey never seemed to move at all accept when they turned to run. Those Dominion bugs were lucky they didn't know how to screen against their weapons, other wise they'd have been toast! Also, those Danube runabouts didn't have the torpedo modification did they?
I think you find that they DID have their shields it's just that they were invective because of the 'phased polaron beams'. They then transferred shield power to weapons; what should have happened is the ship should have launched a barrage of torpedoes and a volley of phasers and fought like bloody hell- especially when in a battle like that. I love ST but they never really did know how to create realistic battle scenes...not like Babylon 5 or BattleStar Galactica
@utubecrapx yes, but presumably once they transferred all power to weapons (which was good) they would not want to fire any torpedos incase they blew themselves and the tiny runabouts to smithereens. I hear you about B5 and BSG, but this one was still pretty damn good I reckon.
I disagree; I don't think they would have blown themselves or the runnabouts to smithereens- thats what targeting scanners are for, and the sensors were still online. Yes, it was a good one, which is why I favoured it, | just think it could have been better.
@utubecrapx Yep, but the targetting scanners would not stop a torpedo from causing significant collateral damage in the vicinity. Presumably the runabouts also turned of their shields in order to get getter output from the phasers. In early TNG episodes they often mention times when they cannot use torpedos due to shield failure. Also, B5 never had shields, so they never had to worry about the extra complication, and BSG is way more modern and probably to fair to compare methinks. :-)
Yes, but that was not given as status so the shields would have been online.
Also collateral damage would have been limited as the torpedoes would have detonated on impact of target, for it to do as you suggest the torpedo would have to go rogue with defect. Phasers and torpedoes are attuned to operate through shields so that should not have been a problem. It would be interesting to see what episodes you were talking about as this would have no doubt been a writing error.
Further B5 and BSG were BOTH sheildless but they had an understanding of battle dynamics and damage consistency which added to the realism of their space scenes. I don't think it matters if B5 is older... it is still comparable...where do you think BSG got some of their influences from? :-)
@utubecrapx from Memory Alpha. 'When fired by a Galaxy-class starship without shields at a target in close range, a single photon detonation had a high probability of destroying the firing ship as well. In 2365, the unshielded USS Lantree was destroyed with a single photon torpedo hit. The USS Enterprise-D stayed at a distance of forty kilometers. (TNG: "Q Who", "Unnatural Selection")'
As I said; writing error. If that were the case, the subsequent battle scenes to retake DS9, Chintoka and the others would have seen ships blow themselves to hell not to mention the high levels of collateral damage due to the density of the ships in battler which were packed in more tightly than this battle consisting of only 7 ships in total. I think I mentioned earlier about a lack of 'consistency' not to mention realistic battle strategy...despite that its still good to watch!
@utubecrapx depending on the intelligence the Jem haddar had which may have been substantial they probably took out the torpedo launchers first. As the shields where useless. The Galaxy class tended to go down easy. Yamato Odyssey Enterprise D.
This was the beginning of the Domion War, The Odyssey was just as important as the Enterprise-D and if it had been Picard instead of Keogh the same thing would have happened.
@whitetower67 Well, the first officer said that they had lost phaser power, and the Odyssey's shield power had been diverted to weapons, so if they had used photon torpedoes at that range, they'd have blown themselves up along with the Jem'Hadar.
@Cap7ainAwesome Galaxy Class ships don't carry that many. About 1000 is normal. But I bet they would have offloaded non-essentials before going through the wormhole
@C0LL1N That looks like a combination of the Enterprise D battle bridge, the Sutjerland's bridge railings and the Saratoga's bridge frame. I would assume they just threw one together
@C0LL1N They were using the Enterprise-D's bridge set at the time for the filming Star Trek: Generations. To build another whole set would have been prohibitively expensive.
@C0LL1N i think you'll find they did because they used the Enterprise-D's bridge prop. they just didn't have need of the full prop for the purpose of the episode
Every time I see this, I think "what the hell."
>Galaxy class fires phaser
>little Jem'Hadar ship does not explode
>suddenly Galaxy class is falling to pieces
If they wanted to give the Jem'Hadar a big scary intro, they should have pitted the Odyssey against a lot more enemy ships, or just had them destroy a Miranda or something.
DigitalEchoFox 50 minutes ago
"Captain, they're using some kind of super, condom sheids, with polerone dildo spermerz!!!!!" "DAMN! Convert all power to frontal condom, latex-dog styled condom shields!!!!!"
Tyco200 9 hours ago
captain, looks like we got ourselves a horny little slut who likes to spy on the federation..
take her to the sex chamber and stuff her full of vibrating dildos!
katsumorymoto 2 days ago
a whole ship of red shirts.
Lilbitevil 3 days ago
basically the reason why the jem'hadar was punching through the odyssey's shields was a beam called a "Phased polaron beam" that beam was something that starfleet never knew about or experience with that type of weaponry yet. thus the federation ships were powerles against it til the SF finally came up with new modulation to the shield harmonics and frequencies which came in handy to help the federation turn the tide.
YDKJ07 6 days ago
Telekinetic powers for a Vorta? Seems like an ability the writers did away with later on.
Uridien 1 week ago
Some pretty good moments in this series, it always reminded me of a lesser version of Babylon 5 though. Especially when the 'Dominion War' storyline started.
NotDuncan 1 week ago
@NotDuncan Lesses version of what show? Babbling On 5?
painkiller1968 1 week ago
@painkiller1968 Like comparing "Lost in Space" to "Star Trek-TOS"
kybelian 1 week ago
Last but not least, you want perhaps to talk about special effects and acting? Will you dare?
Satyros2009 2 days ago
Sure, Avery Brookes CANNOT act, neither could Terry Farrell (which is why her character was removed from the tv show "Becker").
Furthermore, it was DS9 that AGAIN copied B5 when it began using CGI...after trek producers first claimed they would never go there. B5 had a much smaller budget, but did well with what it had. If you are going to argue that DS9 was better for that reason then you might as well claim the Star Wars prequels are the best movies ever.
Robocain1 1 day ago
According to it, kids want the deaths of their parents. But as we grow up this is resolved AND WE DON'T KILL THEM, neither we exile them from their homes (aka "Get the hell out of our galaxy"). Instead it is us that move away and start our own families. If the kids exile/kill or hurt their parents in any other way then the children face the consequences and become tragic figures that suffer from their choices. They do not become the religion venerated icons Delen and Sheridan did.
Satyros2009 2 days ago
Allow me to say a few more things about the "Mommy/Daddy" issue as it is so important. It is not so much it's existence that bothers me but the fact that it suddenly appeared and how it was resolved. In way that is, that disagrees with the psychoanalytic theory that it is based upon.
Satyros2009 2 days ago
As for the "Dominion War" vs "Shadow War" storylines? Lets see. The Dominion War started for reasons that are comparable with wars that have already happened. You know...
...in reality. The fear and misconception of the Founders towards the "solids", the racism the Founders had experienced etc. Compare that to the pure evil Shadows that was the initial reason behind the Shadow War and the "Mommy/Daddy" issue that came towards the end (just 2 or 3 episodes that is) and how this was resolved.
Satyros2009 2 days ago
Actually, it is apparent that you have not watched that which you criticize. The Shadows were NOT pure evil. They and the Vorlons were actings as the Americans and the Soviets did during the cold war - attempting to control and manipulate the fates of satellite states, which is completely realistic.
The Dominon were just typical bad guys - not much different from any other Trek bad guy. They could easily be confused with any other villian in either trek or Star Wars (the empire).
Robocain1 1 day ago
(Beware! Ultimate geek alert!)
Let's take just the Jem'Hadar. Genetically engineered to worship the Founders, yet it is necessary to have them addicted to a drug without which they die. (nature vs nurture anyone?) Some they rebel, yet others follow the Founders regardless of the addiction. For just a glimpse of that see the season 4 episode "To the Death". Just this episode gives more depth to just the Jem'Hadar than the entire B5 series to the Shadows, their lackies and the Vorlon combined.
Satyros2009 2 days ago
@NotDuncan UBER LOL. You've got that wrong. It is B5 that is a lesser version of DS9. B5 had the most unrealistic enemies, that were shown as pure evil. You know blowing up planets and all. Compare that to the complexity of the Founders, Jem'Hadar and Vorta.
Satyros2009 2 days ago
Nah. DS9 was just a rip-off of B5. JMS presented his idea to Paramount and they stole it. B5 was more innovative and had more realistic characters with realistic problems (drinking, etc.). The show inspired everything from the remake of the Battlestar Galactica series to stargate SG-1 and even Star Trek (which Enterprise tried to copy in many ways). They also had more realistic enemies with realistic motivations - the Dominion was hardly realistic....just more typical bad guys.
Robocain1 1 day ago
B5 also had more interesting and realistic aliens - the makeup and design, of which, was unquestionably superior. Star Trek is still stuck with pathetic bumpy forehead aliens-of-the-week.
DS9 rip-offs:
1) Cardassia invades and conquers Bajor vs. Centauri invade and conquer Narn (both victims resent and hate occupiers).
2) Terrorism: the Circle vs. B5's homegaurd (both are are xenophobic).
3) Big interstellar war. Founders believed in "order" so did B5's Vorlons.
Robocain1 1 day ago
4) DS9 is located next to a wormhole. B5 is located next to an artificial wormhole generator.
5) Both stations become strategically important.
6) Sisko starts off as a Commander, so does B5's Sinclair.
7) Sisko lost his wife before arriving at DS9, so did B5's captain Sheridan.
8) The DS9 character Shakar is basically a priest. B5's G'hkar became an "enlightened" religious figure (their names are also almost identically pronounced).
9) DS9's Leeta vs B5's Lyta Alexander (name rip-off)
Robocain1 1 day ago
10) Coup on Earth plot: B5 did it, then DS9 copied in the episode "Paradise Lost."
11) B5 didn't use shields for dramatic effect. DS9 copied by dropping shield effects during the dominion war.
12) DS9's quest to retake Cardassia from occupation in the Dominion war vs. B5's quest to retake Earth from occupation.
13) The ending of both series. Sheridan disappears, taken by god-like aliens...so does Sisko.
Most of whatever DS9 had was directly stolen by Paramount.
Robocain1 1 day ago
@Robocain1 "MS presented his idea to Paramount and they stole it"
Other than them being set on a space station they had every few similarities, especially during the latter seasons.
Danny77uk 4 hours ago
True, they were shameless in their plot stealing.Terrible. May trek rest in peace. Maybe someone will wise up one day and remake B5. Unlike Enterprise, that would be an entertaining show.
Robocain1 1 day ago
Actual B5 rip off from Trek
a) the whole composition of the crew. The commanding officer, the second in command, the doctor etc, b) Sisko was a widower, Sheridan was a widower
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
Special Section 31
With your "logic" the following are B5 rip offs from Trek. a) space story, b) FTL capability, c) Aliens, d) spacefaring alien races, e) EarthForce uses naval rank as Starfleet does, f) spaceships, g) interstellar wars, h) powerful, almost god-like aliens, i) very old alien races, j) human space colonies, k) telepaths, l) starfaring empires, m) in B5 there was "Lyta Alexander" and in Trek there is Alexander Rozhenko son of Worf, n) energy weapons etc.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
Not to mention that while B5 franchise is dead, Trek is very much alive with blockbuster movies. You may not like them, but they are here, NOW, so how the fuck Trek rests in peace? If anything Trek is very much alive and you hate it. Fine hate it as much as you like, but there is the objective truth that it is very much alive. You saying that it rests in peace, proves my point that you are in a delirium.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
You would wish that Trek rests in peace. After B5 there were some really really REALLY bad series in the B5 universe made by the same guy that made B5. Am I wrong? While Trek continued with Voyager and Enterpise, that while not my favorite are 1000 times better than the Crusade and this sci fi discrace that had "Rangers" in it's title.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
Something similar goes for the storyline as well. As DS9's story was not about secrets and mysteries, but about politics and personal decisions etc it is still watchable. In cotrast we know the answers to B5 mysteries and there is little to offer us anymore. It's like an old joke. This is something that are facing all series, and stories in general, that base themeselves in mysteries.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
Neither good special effects and/or big budgets equal bad movies. A good movie/series/novel is good because of the story. This is why I am (and was) focusing in this. I only mentioned acting and special effects in two lines, while I analysed the bad story of B5 in three or four entire messages. So, getting back to special effects, it was logical for B5 to use cheap CGI that now makes it un-watchable in this regard, while DS9 used more expensive technologies that still look OK.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
It is called human nature. You may be a stubborn fool that never does change his mind, but the rest of us are not. And as you mentioned the higher budget DS9 had, this is exactly why B5 used CGI first. At the time CGI was cheaper (and worse) than the best classic (and superior) effects. So regarding special effects DS9 was better. But good special effects don't make a good show.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
And your absurdities continue. Is using a new technology copying?! Then B5 copied the first talkie (movie) and the first movie that used colors instead of black and white film! And my point that DS9 had better effects stands. When B5 used CGI it was a new technology and sucked, while the already known technologies were at their top and were producing amazing outcomes. When CGI became good enough Trek used it. And Trek's producers as most of us can change their minds.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
You missed the point.....
....again. I never said that DS9 was the pinnacle of acting. What I (and most people) did say was that the actors of DS9 were better than those of B5. The same goes for directing.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
Yet, what is exceptional in Trek (thus in DS9 too) is the depth at which the "bad guy" is explored. Something we don't see every day. A WWII movie might explore how the German citizents felt and behave while another might not. In both cases we have an ordinary and very real bad guy, but in the first case the bad guy is explored while in the second is not. In the first case there is an extra dramatic effect while in the second there is not.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
There was nothing extraordinary about the Nazis. They were humans. One head, two hands. Some were really bad people. Others were following because of fear. Yet others followed because some people like lies and fairy tales that are being told, that they are superior. There was nothing extraordinary about these real "bad guys". They were just humans. Imperfect humans like you and me. SO are the "bad guys" in Trek. Unlike the extraordinary with a twist and cherry on top of unrealism in B5.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
As for how "evil" the Shadows were depicted? Well their name says it all. They were depicted for most of the series as the evil of High Fantasy novels. Dark, Shadows, we knew nothing about their society, we barely show them. Even how they looked was "evil". And in the end, they performed Genocide en masse. As for your typical bad guys i will agree in a way. There was nothing extraordinary about the Dominion, AS IT WAS A REALISTIC ENEMY. Realistic enemies are not extraordinary, they are "typical"
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
In B5 it was established in the last episode that all Vorlons and Shadows wanted were to prove they were right. And for this they were compared to parents. This is quite different from the US and the USSR interest, that was money and power. It was quite materialistic and not ideological. Sure there was this shroud about ideology but it was a lie. In contrast this is exactly what the Dominion DID. It ceased planets and territory for it's interest. And it was an obey or die dilemma.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
The Shadows and the Vorlons had nothing in common with the US and the USSR. In B5 they are called "shepards" as they guided and were teaching the "younger" races and they were "old". The US and the USSR were the most powerful among equals.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
13) For starters that would be a motif if it were true. You know like "Jesus ascended", "Mohammed ascended", "Hercules ascended" etc. Only that Sisko did not disappear. Neither it was the end for him. Sheridan does share the above motif.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
12) Actually this is quite different for the following reasons. a) Cardassia was the enemie's (Dominion) HQ, while Earth was the "good guys''" home. b) Cardassia's battle was linked to the Dominion war whereas the battle of Earth in B5 happened after the conclusion of the main storyline (shadow war). So the only similarity is that both were big space battles around a planet! Are you THAT stupid?
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
And here I want to mention that the fact that Paramount had B5's draft means shit. Paramount did NOT make DS9. DS9's producers and writers did. Paramount was paying blah blah blah but when it comes to the creative work these guys have nothing good to say. Unless it was a conspiracy! UBER LOL.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
And don't get me the whole "Paramount had JMS' draft", because these things are not in a draft. Not to mention that B5 ripped off Trek when later it used shileds of sorts. You know the whole "absurbance" in the Excalibur line of ships! Technologically it may (or not) be different, but the concept was the same. SHIELDS, protections against the energy weapons of the adversary.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
11) Have you seen the shields in TNG? In Voyager? In TOS? Have you quantified the differences? And this whole theory of yours is highly speculative. Not to mention that DS9 was brocasted before B5 YOU MORON! How something that was depicted first is a rip off from that, that was depicted later?
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
10) There was no coup on B5. Have you at least seen THIS show? It clear you have not see DS9. Clark did not made a coup. He did rise in power through manipulations and murder but this is not a coup. There was no deposition of the Earth's government. As a matter of fact there was the legal continuation of it. The fact that Earth's goverment became tottalitarian blah blah does not equal a coup. In Paradise Lost there was an attempt from certain members of Starfleet to take power. That IS a coup.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
9) Really?! You are so dumb that you are pointing names as a rip off? (for more see the special section)
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
8) I take it you mean Shakaar Edon who was not a religious figure. He was a warrior, a terrorist, a freedom fighter (depending your POV) and a politician. Have you seen DS9? And you know how to pronounce it but not write it down?!
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
6) This kind of absurdities of yours need a special section.
7) Sheridan was NOT part of the original story JMS had made. When Sheridan was created Sisko was already established as a widower. Do you know what that makes it? A B5 rip off! Thank you for pointing this one out.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
5) Like dah! Yeah, every show's premise is important. It would be boring if it wasn't. It would have been pointless. Lost had the island, BSG had the last Battlestar, TOS and TNG had the Starfleet's flagship and on and on. What did you expect? But HOW, WHY they are important is quite different.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
4) Really? I mean really?! Wormholes in Trek where established like when JMS was a kid. Allow me to counter your "argument" saying that any show that shows a faster than light capability is a rip off of the Original Star Trek. THIS absurd your "argument" is! Not to mention that B5 was NOT near an artificial wormhole. A jump gate is quite different from a wormhole.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
3) AGAIN a motif. If a big interstellar was is a rip off, then all sci fi stories with it are a rip off of a story that Lucian of Samosata made in antiquity! Order vs Chaos is the same, and the way the Founders were approaching what you think as "belief in Order" is quite different than what B5 was showing. These questions, these desires are there for all humans and can be found in numerous sci fi (and not) stories.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
2) The Circle? You mean this organisation that was there for like 3 episodes? Really? Well flash news for you but in the "Ensign Ro" episode that I mentioned before it was already established that the Bajorans were fighting for their freedom through acts of terrorism. So, as far as terrorism goes TNG was there first and inheritted this to DS9. Not to mention that xenophobia is once more a motif and all that. Last but not least xenophobia is a recurring theme in Trek since the Original Series.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
Not to mention that it was done better, and it had more prominent role in DS9. In B5 it was just a backstory at first and later a manipulation of the Big Bad Shadows shown in a few episodes. In DS9 it was always there. Almost in every episode, even those that were not heavily about it. Not to mention that it came from TNG to DS9 and from there transcended to Voyager.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
OF COURSE NOT YOU MORON! The Bajoran/Cardassian and the Narn/Centauri storylines are similar but this is not a rip off because there is a trans-human desire and message behind them. Other earlier similar stories have existed before both of them, and new ones are being created every day. Again, even if I am wrong it is a B5 rip off as the Bajoran/Cardassian storyline that was established at least 2 years before B5.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
Events that have happened to many nations and many people. There is the Armenian Genocide and the Jew Genocide and the ..... Genocide. Is this a rip off? If I make a movie about the Armenian Genocide is it a rip off of the Holocaust movies? If I "conceal" my reference to the Armenian Genocide in a sci fi environment will it be a rip off? If another movie maker wants to tell his opinion, his view, is it a rip off?
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
Now let's get to the so called rip offs.
1) The Bajorans and their resistance were established in the 1991 episode of TNG "Ensign Ro". You know like 2 whole fucking years before B5 and another Trek series! So even if this is a rip-off it is a B5 rip off. But for me it isn't. It is a motif, a story that draws comparison from real life events and repeatadly are being made into fictional stories.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
First of all it is absurd to say that Batllestar Galactica and the Stargate franchise were inspired by Babylon 5. BSG for one was a remake of a seventies show. You know like decades before B5. As for Stargate, this is based on the ancient astronaut theory which is unrelated to B5. Just with these it is clear that you are one of those assholes that think that "their" show is better somehow and live their lives around this fantasy of theirs. It is pitiful.
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
@Robocain1 First of all you did not answer any of my points. And my points were not about who did what first, but who did it better. Not that you are right when you are saying that DS9 ripped off B5, but still. You just went on and on with your delirium. Anyway I will answer to it. (As always ultimate geek alert!)
Satyros2009 4 hours ago
I wonder if Odyssey offloaded all the civilians before they entered the battle? That was like taking a cruise ship into a war zone.
mokwella 1 week ago
@mokwella I always thought that was an oddity of Star Trek. How many episodes of TNG show the Enterprise in some kind of danger? And they have kids with them!
Phantom121904 1 week ago
@mokwella I believe the Odyssey's captain mentioned that they were off-loading all nonessential personel earlier in the episode.
wageboy 4 days ago
captain jellico would have been perfect for this episode
hayesc0 1 week ago
She didn't come back. A pity, I liked her.
redplague 1 week ago
It stinks 2 c a galaxy go down. Even though by the 2370's they were the largest, fastest, & most powerful ships starfleet had in it's inventory they were just 2 big for this kind of combat. Smaller ships just turn circles around them. It also doesn't help that the federations emphasis on diplomacy & exploration meant that the galaxy class was not as formidable as it could have been. I wonder if a soverign class or a nebula class ship would have survived this fight.
BlindMansRevenge2002 1 week ago 2
@BlindMansRevenge2002 Due to the modular design, a Galaxy-class could've been made into a beast of a warship; they just didn't have the time to (and didn't think they needed to) properly outfit Odyssey beforehand. Think about all the specialized, mission-specific labs, and all those cargo bays, you may have seen in TNG episodes and realize that the Galaxy-class has up to 50% of its space dedicated to such uses.
CaptainSeato 6 days ago
Now realize that a combat-oriented Galaxy-class could have that space dedicated to extra shield and phaser power generators and additional redundant combat systems, not to mention that a lot of those systems are automated, so environmental requirements would be substantially reduced.
CaptainSeato 6 days ago
out of all the off shoots ds9 was my favorite.
PrincessTS01 1 week ago
ds9
snowjohn751975 2 weeks ago
Watched this video over and over again, and I still haven't found @mightywibble's comment...
ThePauleric 2 weeks ago
Make that "Uss Odyssey" oops
LordJeffery 2 weeks ago
Look up "Hitler Rants about the Destruction of the Odyssey"... it's pretty funny :P
LordJeffery 2 weeks ago
And with one explosion, the producer showed that the enemies on DS9 would be much worse than anything faced on TNG. Well, except for the Borg maybe.
goomba25 2 weeks ago
The destruction of the Odyssey for me was probably the most awe-inducing moment in DS9. To think "Fuck they destroyed a Galaxy class"
kimildash 3 weeks ago 25
@kimildash I know... with so many people in there...
DIANAROSS4EVER 5 days ago
@kimildash The whole episode was fucking awesome. Another example is the Jem'Hadar who just walked through a force field.
Satyros2009 2 days ago
Wow, walked through a force field...so awesome.
Robocain1 1 day ago
@kimildash That's the great thing about DS9; they were willing to take risks. Unlike TNG, VOY or ENT.
Danny77uk 5 hours ago
Additionally: starship combat was basically a big game of rock paper scissors in Star Trek: seems like as soon as you get through the shields the actual ship is basically cheese just waiting to become swiss cheese. This scene is a classical example thereof. Also the Enterprise-D in its destruction. If you bypassed the shields, they were screwed. We also see this with the Defiant with the Breen EMP-type weapon.
CaitiVoltaire 1 month ago
@CaitiVoltaire This battle was basically one "lightened" Battleship, and two Torpedo Boats versus what looked like three "Cruisers" (JH Attack Ships fit in the lower end of the Cruiser or upper end of the Destroyer spectrum, depending who you ask). The JH had a huge advantage in being able to bypass SF shields at will. They also deliberately targeted the warp nacelles to destroy the ship's power relays and probably to cause a core breach.
DanielKnyphausen 4 weeks ago
Galaxy class is basically like a man'o'war. Big, unwieldly, but they hit like a brick sh*thouse.. basically a galaxy class was used as this scene as cannon-fodder for the writers to say "hey, they just blew up a flagship easily! Look how powerful they are!" Kind of a starship version of the Worf effect.
CaitiVoltaire 1 month ago 2
@CaitiVoltaire Pre-DW Galaxies could be classed as (VERY expensive) Battlecruisers in terms of weapons capability, or Battleships for size. Events of the Dominion War and their deployment on-screen suggest they were heavily refit (as supported by some non-official sources) into something closer to a battleship. They were still more "target" and less "weapons platform" for their size and really better off as explorers, not warships.
DanielKnyphausen 4 weeks ago
@CaitiVoltaire of course the problem with that was since both Worf and the Enterprise D were easily overpowered by any alien they encountered it lost credibility since it got to the point we expected them to be overpowered. I was actually surprised when either Worf or the Enterprise D overcame anyone!
LtRacjack12 2 weeks ago
@LtRacjack12 - Yeah, it was definetely problematic that they did it so often, as it undermines the credibility of the ship as capable, and likewise Worf as a warrior.
CaitiVoltaire 1 week ago
@CaitiVoltaire The Galaxies were very capable general-purpose exploration, scientific, diplomatic and first contact vessels with provision for self defense. They were not capable as warships. Perhaps post-refit Galaxies bolstered their systems, but without physical/structural modifications to add more phasers and torpedo tubes, Galaxies in a weapon system sense are best used like old "Protected Cruisers" in a WW1-style battle line.
DanielKnyphausen 1 week ago
@LtRacjack12 Truth of it is - despite the scripting - the 1701D was only modestly armed given its size. 12 Phaser Arrays, 3 Torpedo Tubes and 250 Torpedoes. Given its mass, if it was constructed as a warship, I'd expect double that number. For comparison, Voyager is considered a light cruiser and had 14 Phaser Arrays and five Tubes. I've said elsewhere that Galaxies were some odd sub-type of cruiser (Command/Exploration), the (lack of) standard weapons really support this.
DanielKnyphausen 1 week ago
@DanielKnyphausen The Galaxy class was originally a humanitarian, exploration, science, and diplomatic transport ship. That said, the Galaxy was on par with most Warships of it's era, including the Romulan D'deridex class, The Cardassian Keldon class, and the Ferengi D'Kora class. The Klingon Negh'Var warship was heavily outmatched fighting a Galaxy Class. So the Galaxy was impressive as a warship, compared to it's contemporaries.
KiraZeroYamato 2 days ago
@DanielKnyphausen During the Dominion war the Galaxy class ships saw numerous improvements during refits, and was further improved as a fleet anchor, and flag ship. You also have to take in to account that the Defiant class, and Intrepid Class were both later ships, and designed for more heavy combat. As well at the time almost all the major factions were going through fleet upgrades, due to the Dominion War. Comparing Enterprise D to Defiant or Voyager is unrealistic.
KiraZeroYamato 2 days ago
The Galaxy class never looked to me like anything other than an oversized cruise ship with some weapons and science equipment strapped on.
CommandoDude 1 month ago
@CommandoDude They were reconfigurable to a degree. During the Dominion War, it's been explained, Galaxies were refitted and families were removed - a point Picard brought up quite a few years earlier. Most of the space saved went to shuffling systems around to make way for more phaser capacity, shields and probably Photons. From Galactic Explorer to Battleship in one very expensive make-over.
DanielKnyphausen 4 weeks ago
@DanielKnyphausen Doesn't change the fact an obscene amount of space is wasted on luxurious living quarters, and spacious hallways/rooms. The bridge is unnecessarily huge.
CommandoDude 4 weeks ago
@CommandoDude True, I believe Picard made similar comments in the first episode, and Scotty even regarded his accommodations as better than a fleet admiral's in his day. Some of the opulence, of course, is important as Galaxies seem to have been used as diplomatic ships. As for bridge size, Keogh commanded from the battle bridge, it seems, for this engagement. Galaxy bridges were designed to look "softer" and less militaristic, possibly to project a nonthreatening atmosphere.
DanielKnyphausen 3 weeks ago
@DanielKnyphausen It is possible that the Galaxies were repurposed for war following the battle at Wolf 359, as part of the same program which produced the Defiant-class ships.
williamskidfears 2 weeks ago
@williamskidfears I believe that's part of what Commander Shelby was doing on the D - she had been working on anti-Borg measures following Q's little "Oh, by the way, these are Borg." thing - and that is evaluating what was considered the best ship of the time. Tactics, systems, crew, etc. The Defiants were originally supposed to be anti-Borg ships. It's a very wasteful approach to build entire classes to counter specific threats, though (See USS Alaska from WW2).
DanielKnyphausen 1 week ago
@DanielKnyphausen Except, the Defiants proved to have more than sufficent firepower to take out more than just Borg, or were at least modified to become generalist warships.
And, the fact that it's wasteful doesn't stop a government from doing it anyway, like with the Alaska-class CBs.
williamskidfears 1 week ago
@CommandoDude See, I do agree with you here. Ralph Offenhouse even got this impression when he was unfrozen in 2364. Galaxies were designed to be emissaries of peace, diplomacy, and discovery.. with some capability of self defense far less than their size would suggest. Perhaps the seldom-used classification "Command Cruiser" would be more appropriate when describing them, instead of Battlecruiser, Battleship or Panzerschiffe.
DanielKnyphausen 3 weeks ago
odo is a natural badass and kira is sexy. ds9 was one of the best of the series. i like voyager a little more tho.
gg14155 1 month ago
what episode is this
firestar10100 1 month ago
@firestar10100 Its called the "Jem'Hadar" season 2 finale
kd84afc 1 month ago
At this time the fed had no way to stop the poleron beam & had no concept of a ram attack.
Zlogical1 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The idea to destroy a Galaxy class Starship, was show even if Picard was command they still would have been destroyed. Basically its a good way of showing how tough and serious the dominion was meant to be. And it worked, I remember watching it when it first aired and I was shocked because Star Trek before didnt have a dark tone and to have a sad ending and it was excellent because before you had a kind of a nice utopia feeling towards everything , for me makes DS9 the best show
kd84afc 1 month ago
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kd84afc 1 month ago
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kd84afc 1 month ago
No one quite like JL Picard - this bloke doesn't quite cut it.
LitchKB 1 month ago
I'm still very confused: the Galaxy-Class is the cream of the crop, biggest, most baddest ass vessel -- at the time -- in Starfleet, yet it fires off two phaser bursts and gets taken by 3 ships barely larger than the Roundabouts. Also, a Galaxy-Class Ship is destroyed and NO ONE is being brought before a review board? That'd be like USN losing an Aircraft Carrier and people in the Navy just shrugging, saying "Oh well, plenty of more where that came from"! That's career-ending stuff.
AllTerroristsMustDie 1 month ago
@AllTerroristsMustDie Runabouts are 23 meters long. Jem hadar attack ships are 95 meters long, so they are much larger than them.
Virmeck 1 month ago
@AllTerroristsMustDie
There's no one to bring before a board of inquiry. The ship was lost with all hands. And the runabouts weren't directly responsible for the Odyssey, their crews were probably debriefed, the sensor logs reviewed, and they were probably cleared of all blame.
sfs2040 1 month ago
Funny... Kira says with certainty that the Vorta will be back... And yet we never saw her ass again!
prescaleb07 1 month ago
The captain looks kind of like young John McCain.
funkervogt47 1 month ago
9/11 @ 2:35
translucentorb 1 month ago
funny how the Vorta does not at all react to Odo's presence...
ZeroB4NG 1 month ago 3
@ZeroB4NG I don't think she even realised that Odo was a Founder, after all he just looks like a humanoid/solid of some kind of alien race. Unless she did know that he was a Founder ( after all they already knew alot about the Alpha Qaud and who is who in it) but didn't want to give that information away until it was best for them to do so.
LORDTIGERBLOOD 1 month ago
@ZeroB4NG I was thinking the same thing. The only thing I can think of is that she may never have seen a Founder before. It's possible she hadn't.
sunnchilde 1 month ago
Galaxy again uses less than 1% of its capability; ugh.
fpsBeaTt 1 month ago in playlist Star Trek
@fpsBeaTt Ahahaha! You know what's funny? As I was watching this again I was thinking to myself "that crazy Galaxy-class fanboy was probably suicidal after this episode". And look, here you are whining and crying! Without fail you are once again present making up fake fantastical abilities for your beloved ship. No rant about it being superior to the Sovie though? Come on, you're slipping!
teaearlgreyhot1 1 month ago
The Enterprise!!! Not Again! lol
tsukamitore 2 months ago
I still hate Rick Berman for what he did to TNG: in '94 all in the same week, he
1. ended TNG t it's high
2. destroyed the Odyssey (Enterprise lookalike) in DS9
3. destroyed the Enterprise in 'Generations'
and years later he messed up TNG completely with 'Nemesis'.
I really hope that JJ Abrams or someone else will restore TNG to it's former glory, in one way or another. At least a good sendoff with the original cast or new voyages with an alt-cast.
llowket 2 months ago
@llowket
..... Are you fucking kidding me??? True, Rick Bermas was bad for Star Trek but JJ Abrams is far worse!!! In one single movie, Abrams and crew:
1. Destroyed Vulcan and completely fucked up the timeline
2. Changed the way Romulans look (Vulcans and Romulans are basically supposed to be the same race with different politics ... reference to North and South Korea)
3. Placed an undergrad cadet (Kirk) into the captain's chair of the flagship vessel in Starfleet (like that would ever happen)
baq2cali 2 months ago
@baq2cali #1: you do know both timelines still exist right? 2009 ST didn't erase the original one (some complicated Star Trek AU-physics things that happened in TNG... look it up) In my opinion, Abrams made a good call in that regard since his Star Trek is meant for a newer generation with new stories not tied down to the complicated canon already established. #2 ??? #3: Your right, that was the big mistake and the most implausible thing too cause Starfleet is still a defense organization.
Crucible52 2 months ago
@baq2cali It's called, wait for it, an ALTERNATE REALITY, sir. (or ma'am, I'm not sure which you are :/
localfive0 1 month ago
@llowket
1. Season 7 had alot of highs and lows. It was time to put the series to bed.
2. That was Ira Steven Behr's call, not Berman's. (Behr fought Berman tooth and nail the while series).
3. :'(
Also, JJ made the franchise worse. Alternate reality or not, Star Trek as a whole was damaged by the Abrams movie!
sfs2040 1 month ago
@sfs2040 how'd JJ make it worse? other than making it Star Wars than Trek
DOWSOE 1 month ago
@llowket
TNG may have been on a high ratings-wise, but hardly quality wise. Also what was wrong with destroying the Odyssey?
80smusicfanNO1 1 month ago
In a the episode where the Dominion attack dsn the fed had made their shield hold up along time against Dominion weapons.
mcfuson37 2 months ago
@mcfuson37
It's called adaption. The Borg aren't the only ones who can do it. The Fed adapted their technology to resist Dominion weapons fire.
sfs2040 1 month ago
@mightywibble Why not? Star Trek was always designed to be thought-provoking. The setting, despite being futuristic, was supposed to provide a platform for exploration of modern-day issues.
captainsakonna 2 months ago 13
@captainsakonna exactly, the sci fi is just the setting, the story's what's important.
BlueCrystalGem 1 week ago
i wish that black XO survived he was cool :(
spontaneoussam2 2 months ago
Honestly lucky for the JemHadar that their weapons tech had not been previously encountered before. In a square fight those little ships would not have had a chance against a Galaxy class starship, there are few who can.
kuribo1 3 months ago
Bloomberg gets about.
pengo2008 3 months ago
I always hated how the Odyssey never seemed to move at all accept when they turned to run. Those Dominion bugs were lucky they didn't know how to screen against their weapons, other wise they'd have been toast! Also, those Danube runabouts didn't have the torpedo modification did they?
terrywest111 3 months ago
No torpedoes? Another unrealistic battle sequence...
utubecrapx 3 months ago
@utubecrapx They have no shields dude.
dauntless111 3 months ago
@dauntless111
I think you find that they DID have their shields it's just that they were invective because of the 'phased polaron beams'. They then transferred shield power to weapons; what should have happened is the ship should have launched a barrage of torpedoes and a volley of phasers and fought like bloody hell- especially when in a battle like that. I love ST but they never really did know how to create realistic battle scenes...not like Babylon 5 or BattleStar Galactica
utubecrapx 3 months ago 2
@utubecrapx yes, but presumably once they transferred all power to weapons (which was good) they would not want to fire any torpedos incase they blew themselves and the tiny runabouts to smithereens. I hear you about B5 and BSG, but this one was still pretty damn good I reckon.
dauntless111 3 months ago
@dauntless111
I disagree; I don't think they would have blown themselves or the runnabouts to smithereens- thats what targeting scanners are for, and the sensors were still online. Yes, it was a good one, which is why I favoured it, | just think it could have been better.
utubecrapx 3 months ago
@utubecrapx Yep, but the targetting scanners would not stop a torpedo from causing significant collateral damage in the vicinity. Presumably the runabouts also turned of their shields in order to get getter output from the phasers. In early TNG episodes they often mention times when they cannot use torpedos due to shield failure. Also, B5 never had shields, so they never had to worry about the extra complication, and BSG is way more modern and probably to fair to compare methinks. :-)
dauntless111 3 months ago
@dauntless111
Yes, but that was not given as status so the shields would have been online.
Also collateral damage would have been limited as the torpedoes would have detonated on impact of target, for it to do as you suggest the torpedo would have to go rogue with defect. Phasers and torpedoes are attuned to operate through shields so that should not have been a problem. It would be interesting to see what episodes you were talking about as this would have no doubt been a writing error.
utubecrapx 3 months ago
@dauntless111
Further B5 and BSG were BOTH sheildless but they had an understanding of battle dynamics and damage consistency which added to the realism of their space scenes. I don't think it matters if B5 is older... it is still comparable...where do you think BSG got some of their influences from? :-)
utubecrapx 3 months ago
@utubecrapx from Memory Alpha. 'When fired by a Galaxy-class starship without shields at a target in close range, a single photon detonation had a high probability of destroying the firing ship as well. In 2365, the unshielded USS Lantree was destroyed with a single photon torpedo hit. The USS Enterprise-D stayed at a distance of forty kilometers. (TNG: "Q Who", "Unnatural Selection")'
dauntless111 3 months ago
@dauntless111
As I said; writing error. If that were the case, the subsequent battle scenes to retake DS9, Chintoka and the others would have seen ships blow themselves to hell not to mention the high levels of collateral damage due to the density of the ships in battler which were packed in more tightly than this battle consisting of only 7 ships in total. I think I mentioned earlier about a lack of 'consistency' not to mention realistic battle strategy...despite that its still good to watch!
utubecrapx 3 months ago
@utubecrapx agreed, star trek was never good at the technical consistency. :-)
dauntless111 3 months ago
@utubecrapx depending on the intelligence the Jem haddar had which may have been substantial they probably took out the torpedo launchers first. As the shields where useless. The Galaxy class tended to go down easy. Yamato Odyssey Enterprise D.
Zlogical1 1 month ago
@Zlogical1 Not a good decade for the Galaxy Class. Yamato, her replacement Odyssey, then Enterprise D. Hence the rise of the Sovereign
Revkor 1 month ago
@utubecrapx I made a Hitler parody in regards to that... absolute bs!
LordJeffery 2 weeks ago
The Captain of the Odyssey is Skeletor!
tausti 3 months ago 12
@tausti He can't be-- Skeletor talks through his nose. :)
KirneH004 2 months ago
The Vorta didn't bow to Odo at the end...
I guess he didn't grace her with his presence.
TheKilak 3 months ago
Little known fact: The first casualty of the Dominion was Skeletor.
maidyntywun 3 months ago 3
Jem'Hadar weapons are said to have a range of 100,000km.
...and yet they wait until they're about 3km from the ships before they even bother to fire.
ZKY2 4 months ago
lmao
MrSieish 4 months ago
Enterprise-D, Yamato, Odyssey - it seems like if you're on a Galaxy-class ship you've signed your death warrant.
Amar7605 4 months ago 2
This was the beginning of the Domion War, The Odyssey was just as important as the Enterprise-D and if it had been Picard instead of Keogh the same thing would have happened.
japstoryeditor 4 months ago
@japstoryeditor dunno, Enterprise D was the flagship. It should be a little mote powerful than most of its sister ships. Plus, Picard had Q :P
and Q would never let them die so quickly. LOL
DOWSOE 4 months ago
@DOWSOE A Galaxy- Class ship was specifically used to show the Big E would of been no better off in that fight.
sfs2040 1 month ago
Great video....DS9 was a great show. The Dominion was a great new enemy.
Titaan359 4 months ago
DS9 Was just awesome
raidenzero 4 months ago
IN THE LAST 3-4 SEASON QUARK BECAME THE STAR OF DS9.
BLACKPUSSYPUNISHER 4 months ago
No fire directed from the Odyssey at the Jem 'Hadar ship on its suicide run? Someone asleep at fire control?
whitetower67 4 months ago
@whitetower67 The first officer tells the captain that weapns are down before they try to leave.
DAZED404 4 months ago
@whitetower67 Well, the first officer said that they had lost phaser power, and the Odyssey's shield power had been diverted to weapons, so if they had used photon torpedoes at that range, they'd have blown themselves up along with the Jem'Hadar.
sephservant 4 months ago
@whitetower67 If you listen to the dialogue on the bridge again, they were being hammered. They lost power to phasers.
KJOSCOT 2 months ago
that damaged nacelle was really shaking the hell out of oddessy. yeah some of that was incoming fire but most was because of that nacelle
armymatt83 4 months ago
I take it they didn't build a full set for the odyssey's bridge, because they never show a wide shot of it.
C0LL1N 5 months ago 14
@C0LL1N It was the same set as the Saratoga from the first DS9 episode because the TNG bridge set was being used to film Generations at the time.
ExplorerXIII 4 months ago
@C0LL1N I wonder why they didn't just use the set for the Enterprise-D. They're both Galaxy class.
Cap7ainAwesome 4 months ago
@Cap7ainAwesome was the enterprise-D set still existing at this time? maybe they rebuild it for a movie (Generations) but not for an episode.
I like that the bridges look a bit different. As far as I know the bridge sections of newer federation ships are exchangeable anyway.
johndoe3k5 4 months ago
@Cap7ainAwesome scroll a bit down. explorerXIII gave a good answer
johndoe3k5 4 months ago
First casualties of the Dominion War; one (top of the line) ship, 2,000+ crewmen and Quark's self esteem.
Cap7ainAwesome 4 months ago
@Cap7ainAwesome Galaxy Class ships don't carry that many. About 1000 is normal. But I bet they would have offloaded non-essentials before going through the wormhole
negvar 4 months ago
@C0LL1N That looks like a combination of the Enterprise D battle bridge, the Sutjerland's bridge railings and the Saratoga's bridge frame. I would assume they just threw one together
Trek001 3 months ago
@C0LL1N They were using the Enterprise-D's bridge set at the time for the filming Star Trek: Generations. To build another whole set would have been prohibitively expensive.
satyrquaze 3 months ago
@C0LL1N i think you'll find they did because they used the Enterprise-D's bridge prop. they just didn't have need of the full prop for the purpose of the episode
MrMikellsof88 3 months ago
Is DS9 already streaming on Netflix?
pinoi78 5 months ago
@pinoi78 Not til October
red99camaro 5 months ago