1950's Television: "The Honeymooners" on DuMont Television Network

[frumnyc]

Seems like they adopted this plot line for a full episode. I loved Audrey Meadows, but this version of Alice does seem more fitting for teh "class" these players are in. I guess this was well before his weight became the object of many a joke like

[nailband]

so....anyone ever wonder where this "ALICE" character ended up...FAMILY GUY, That's where! LOIS is a direct descendant, and Peter is just a reincarnation of Ralph!

If you just listen to the audio, you'd swear it was a Family Guy Episode.

[joesphx19]

The DuMont network had the luck of selling their shows to other networks who then made hits of them. Still, DuMont was real TV on the cheap, sort of like an early community access channel in quality.

[BobWXXI]

Jackie Gleason saved most of these episodes from both the DuMont and CBS series, by having them personally kinescoped--he figured they'd be valuable someday.

[tomitstube]

i actually like this better, more realistic, less slapstick. i think pert kelton was a better actress and jackie didn't want to lose her, i have no doubt it would have been just as much a hit. but unfortunately the mccarthy fascists got her blacklisted before the season began.

[ShawDAMAN]

@tomitstube I'm not sure I like this *better,* as meadows made such a mark as Alice, but I do like Kelton... first time I've seen this. She's kind of cute in a homely way haha... more what you would expect perhaps

[tomitstube]

@ShawDAMAN ~ i know audrey is a favorite of many people, she was good, but i think kelton was more of an honest fit, this version had a flim noir to it that was still in vogue. plus the writing changed after she was blackballed, so it's hard to say. and it's hard to argue with something that did so well (altho not at the time) i do have a soft spot for the actors ruined by mccarthy.

[44032]

12/7/51. The fifth ever "Honeymooners" and Joyce Randolph's first appearance as Trixie. Norton had shown up in the third episode.

[DocWyoming]

Alice was actually having an affair, it's just that she and Joe were fast talkers and they came up with a back story in case they got caught.

[143AC]

Ms.Kelton's last film appearance was in "The Comic"with Mr.Dick Van Dyke.

[spxmet]

Am I the only one here that kind of sees a little bit of Joaquin Phoenix, at least in this clip, in Gleason? Facewise, that is.

[cafemartini]

@spxmet Are you sure your monitor isn't distorted???

[spxmet]

@cafemartini Give Joaquin a few years. With all the shit he does, he'll look like Jackie in no time.

[tracytcb111111111111]

love the show but i perfur the 2nd alice look how thin jackie is he looked good great show

[mxylpx]

Interesting to watch the development of a character with Norton from mug to goof.

[louspintoo]

@mxylpx I agree, and it's interesting to watch how the whole production was before the 39 we all know so well. I think this Alice is pretty funny.

[mxylpx]

@louspintoo Yes, Pert's Alice was was bit more hard-edged than Audrey Meadows,but both could deliver a great laff with their delivery!  Wonderful Ladies!

[jimaroo100]

Pert Kelton - Winthrop's Grandma in the Music Man - she was a real pro

[doctornerve]

Great image at 6:29

[Pegbur]

Listen, why don't you slap her around a little bit, till she realizes what a sweet guy you are? LMAO!

[Pegbur]

Ralph was thinner than huh? Wow!

[271tixe]

I'm so glad Art Carney dropped that ridiculous forced accent. The Ed Norton from the Classic 39 was much better.

[DrumTVShow]

Oh my, I never seen this one before

[tripjet999]

"Hurry up, I'm starvin'!"

Well, fix your own damn meal!

[hal7ter]

Thanks so much for this. We saw the Honeymooners from the beginning and never could get used to Audrey Meadows playing the part. Ralph sure seems to be a forerunner to Archie Bunker.

[wileycoyote64]

I read that most of the old DuMont TV shows were dumped in the hudson river

because no one would pay for storage

[MattTheSaiyan]

@wileycoyote64 That's what actress Edie Adams claimed when asked about her troubles finding copies of her husbands work. I don't how much DuMont itself kept, but it does appear a lot more what kept by the network than currently exists.

[RickumsMcJames]

@MattTheSaiyan True. The story is one of the lawyers who was supposed to find storage for them said "he'd take care of it." He loaded them on three semis that went to a waiting barge. They made a right at the Statue of Liberty then dumped them right there in the Upper New York Bay! With a depth of 50 feet, is there any possibility of survival?

[1129Irving]

Ralph looks like he is in high school!

[conductorron]

Was this an excerp from one of the episodes or is this theentire episode without commercials?

[MattTheSaiyan]

It's from "Cavalcade of Stars". It's a sketch from the days when the show was still sketches on a variety show. "Cavalcade of Stars" has been said to have had about 10 30-to-60 second commercials and hence had about 47 to 52 minutes of actual show per an episode.

[impCaesarAvg]

This whole episode is Joe's fault. His note should have been written on company letterhead, and addressed to "Mrs. Kramden."

[kargo386]

There is a scene from The Honeymooners in which Jackie Gleason and Art Carney sing and dance a song in the Kramden's kitchen. It begins: "Just like Damon and Pythias what a wonderful friendship this-y-is. You're my pal, you're a tonic for my morale. As we travel up life's canal, it's guys like you that make it swell. I think you're really great. And with Norton you'll always rate. Besides I know you're influential: You carry lots of weight...." Does anyone have this to post?

[DavidWhatsHisName]

I love Pert Kelton as Alice, becasue she looks -- and sounds -- more like the kind of woman that Ralph Kramden WOULD be married to. As the "next" Alice, Audrey Meadows underplayed nicely, but she always looked far too "classy" for a guy like Kramden. A few years later, PERT KELTON made a smash hit as Mrs. Paroo in "The Music Man", on stage and in the movies. I love Pert Kelton. Remember her last role, as "Alice's Mother" in a musical Honeymooners in with Shiela MacRae, in 1968? God bless her.

[Juliaflo]

@DavidWhatsHisName Miss Kelton will also be remembered as Sophie in commercials for Spic 'n' Span, a soap product of yesteryear.

Miss Kelton may have originated the role of Alice, but the missionary's daughter Audrey Meadows solidifed the essence of Alice Gibson Kramden.

[dallyx66]

Audrey Meadows was brilliant. She had great timing, could trade barbs with Jackie, yet had wonderful vulnerability. Pert Kelton was a great character actress, but Audrey was the perfect leading lady for Gleason. They were a believable young couple who loved each other in spite of everything.

[NYVoice]

THAT'S the word-vulnerability. Pert had a NY toughness about her but didn't counter Ralph's demeanor with understanding; just more confrontation. Audrey was more sympathetic because she was quite beautiful and knew how to pacify Ralph in spite of his shortcomings. And Pert WAS on a '67 Honeymooners special (Alice's Mother) and died soon after.

[44032]

@DavidWhatsHisName But that's the thing. I think Ralph's behavior- trying to be a "big man" and get rich quick was motivated by his trying to live up to having such a classy wife. Kelton was the wife he deserved, which was less interesting.

[jdfox1]

Wow! Great video! I prefer the other Alice but this is really interesting. :)

[tunapup12]

Wow, Jackie Gleason looks thin compared to when "The Honeymooners" went to CBS.

Thanks for the upload. I've never seen a "Honeymooners" sketch with Pert Kelton before.

[handinside]

There was a similar episode amomg the "Original 39" involving a man from Morgans Furniture Store who Ralph called a "gigolo" Both were hilarious.

[Noveltooner]

Note the skinnier Ralph; a few years before Alice could respond to Ralph's "You can't put your arms around a memory " with, "I can't even put my arms around you."

[vividwatch47]

Joyce Randolph was actually the second Trixie.  Elaine Stritch played her in the very first "Honeymooners" sketch that aired on "Cavalcade Of Stars", then was replaced by Randolph.

[Gerkinstock]

@vividwatch47... Does any footage from that show exist to your knowledge?

[wollestoncraft]

Thanks 4 the post, love Pert Kelton! It's a big world, there is room for two actresses 2 play Alice Kramden, they were both great.

[bobandrayfan1]

Actually Pert Kelton's name was found on a Red Channels listing, a list of alleged communists in the radio/tv business.

When Gleason moved the show to CBS he left her out saying that the blacklist had aggravated her heart condition.

TV Land had a great Honeymooners show back when TV Land was just beginning. They mentioned the blacklist in the show.

[Noveltooner]

But Gleason always took care of his friends. Pert Kelton returned to "The Honeymooners" in 1968 to play Alice's mother in the color episodes from "The Jackie Gleason Show." When Gleason presented her during the cast introductions at the end, she received a huge standing ovation. There were a lot of "DuMonters" in the the Florida audience, and they remembered. Sadly, she passed away in October of the same year.

[WSenator1]

@Noveltooner - I remember that episode (I was in college at the time). When JG introduced Pert Kelton, he mentioned that she was "the original Alice" and I was puzzled, because the only one I knew besides Sheila Macrae (who played the part then) was Audrey Meadows. She was a rough number in the "lost" Honeymooners, telling you!

[Noveltooner]

@WSenator1

There was one other Alice in addition to Pert Kelton, Audrey Meadows and Sheila MacRae and she was Sue Ane Langdon. She played Alice in the early 60's on a black and white videotaped Honeymooners special that aired on "Jackie Gleason's American Scene Magazine." Ms. Langdon was also the only blonde Alice.

[WSenator1]

@Noveltooner - Yes, I've heard about Ms. Langdon. I've never seen the sketches with her as Alice, though. One thing I've wondered recently. Would "The Honeymooners" have been popular had Pert Kelton played Alice through the years that Audrey Medows did? I know that AM made herself up to be careworn, but it's obvious to the viewer that this Alice was still pretty. Bless PK's heart, but it's apparent that her best days, looks-wise, were behind her. Just a thought.

[WingThaiJ]

Who was 1st Audrey or this woman? Where was Audrey during this filming?

[UX210]

Pert Kelton (this woman) was the original Alice Kramden. Her health was not good and she left the show in 1952 at which point Audrey Meadows played Alice. Pert Kelton sometimes had bit parts in later (1960s-era) Honeymooners episodes. She died in 1968.

[WingThaiJ]

Thanks for the info.. I thought I recognized her from other bit parts in other Honeymooner episodes. She didn't play the maid that Ralph hired on an episode did she? The face looks the same, but the maid looks bigger. Thanks!

[vividwatch47]

The bit part was, ironically, that of Alice's mother, Mrs. Gibson!

[WingThaiJ]

Where was the real Alice (Audrey) during this filming and other filming when they used someone else?

[mannysdaman]

she was blacklisted because at the time, sen. mccarthy and pres. truman were pieces of absolute shit that were racists at best

[WingThaiJ]

You are right, I checked this out; she was blacklisted.

[NYVoice]

The irony is that 50 years later, Joe would be dead on. Look who's occupying the White House. And Truman was no racist. He was the first president to attempt to intergrate the military. Look it up.

[camachowuw]

lol whats with all the eyebrow makeup, they look like drag queens who just got took off there wigs

[BuzzBarber]

Yes, TV makeup in those days was still being developed, and a LOT of players had to do their own makeup and hair. For some reason, on live TV the trend was to have very high contrast between skin and facial features (and of course, almost all TV actors in those days were white).

[MattTheSaiyan]

Yes, and I'd say that it may also have to do with Kinescope picture quality (which always seemed to have worse contrast than shows produced directly on film. Heck, when Black people did appear on TV, their facial features were hard to make out, even more than the white people).

[eaglesfool]

Audrey Meadows was indeed the best and only Alice... I find Pert Kelton's voice a bit annoying.

[JerseyRich732]

Audrey Meadows WAS Alice Kramden ... Sheila MacRae was Godawful...

[thunderstruck665]

HA! Jackie looks so skinny!!

[dharma7400]

yes he is very skinny. he was also skinny on his other show The Life of Riley. I loved that show.

[vashmty]

this episode was so heart-moving when I watched it for the first time...

[myrabradwell40]

audrey meadows was the best alice. sheila mccrae was the worst.

[YeahRight825]

This is a great episode!... one of the original seven with Pert Kelton on the DuMont TV Network from 1951... there were actually two more Honeymooners skits that Gleason did with Kelton, but those were in 1952 on the Ed Sullivan show during the transition from DuMont to CBS, and onto Audrey Meadows becoming the new Alice in her first skit called 'The New Bowling Ball'... thanks for posting this!

[vividwatch47]

Both "The Ed Sullivan Show" and "The Jackie Gleason Show" (in its first three seasons and final two after "The Honeymooners" were done at the same studio.

[myrabradwell40]

Pert Kelton was pretty.

[EyeLean5280]

Yes, but I prefer Audrey Meadows

[mannysdaman]

thats because your familar with Audreys work playing Alice, fool!

[EyeLean5280]

Someone who prefers something different from you is a fool?

You must be impossible to live with. My sympathy to your family.

[mannysdaman]

my sympathy to yur mom,,,, she raised an absolute fool

[EyeLean5280]

So, it took you two whole months to think that up?

[missNYCmodel]

2 words...AUDREY MEADOWS!!!!!!!!

[burrfscott]

Pert had to leave the show,due to the fact that back in the early 50s with the MaCarty trials,she was blackballed from working. Have we come a long way. CBS had told Jackie that they had to find someoe else,and Audrey had the part.

[electrodecjc50]

Great clip....I still think Audrey Meadows made the perfect Alice .Thanks for the upload...

[fromthesidelines]

This "Honeymooners" sketch was first seen on "CAVALCADE OF STARS" in late 1951.

[rolex452]

Thanks for that clip...I LOVED Audrey Meadows, but Pert Kelton WAS Alice Kramden...her voice, her looks, her mannerisms were all classic Brooklyn (my home town). She also helped write the Honeymooners skits...rest in peace, Jackie, Pert, Art, and Audrey.....

[fabulbabe]

I've never seen more than a few seconds of the Dumont Honeymooners before. Thanks very much for sharing this!

[MattTheSaiyan]

You're Welcome! I wish I had more myself, but finding copies of DuMont programs (Such as "Cavalcade of Stars" with Jackie Gleason) is difficult.

[wileycoyote64]

@MattTheSaiyan

Is it true that most of the the old films( From DuMount) were dumped into the hudson river because no one would pay for storage?