God of the Old Testament: Jesus or Allah? ( Abdullah's Opening Statement - 2 of 5 )

[shahadan1985]

Why is the Golden mean point of the Earth is Mecca not Vatican City or Jerusalam?

Why does Horus God of Ancient Egypt, Krishna of hindu shares the same birthday with Jesus, 25th December and same idealogy of Birth from a virgin and cruxification?

Why does the American so busy to pull down the faith of Islam instead of upholding and strengthen their own faith - act of the devil?

[luvsachkash]

@shahadan1985 abt 1st line- -its not important....do you know ?SUN IS not exactly AT the GOLDEN point of UNIVERSE....

abt 2nd one-- VERY GOOD POINT, "its the fact that EVERY RELIGIOUS BOOKS TALKS about JESUS .its certain, ONLY Jesus has history and proved he was lived on the earth, not krishna or horus but they MEANT " those who born from virgin and crucified is GOD " ITS VERY CERTAIN that JESUS is the one to DO SO...

abt 3rd line- that doesnt concern with me

[shahadan1985]

Islam reached Asia before Christians did. Because why? Bible has wasted a lot of time for editions. And so they conqoured North and South America, Land Of Sins. Densely populated Christian Drug Addicts, Satan worshippers, and high profile criminals.

[shahadan1985]

Yeah thats the problem with the Christians. They don't even understand or study the complex language of hebrew, bible original language. Thats why the Quran was brought down to rectify all. The new tastament was scriptures from Ancient Rome religion originated from Egypt to please the emperor so that they will convert for political purposes. They pawn religion for their own interests.

[ZachWhosoever]

@aalh020

texts of the Quran but not other Scripture that he inspired as well? (I see this question as redundant in light of what we know about the Quaran's variations, and I will address Yawheh's 'God-breathed' Scripture as well, but I ask this to hammer in the point that you cannot pick and choose when to trust Allah's supposed preservation of scripture) Did the Roman government overcome Allah's preservation of the New Testament inspiration but not the inspiration of the Quran?

[aalh020]

@ZachWhosoever Seond and last,

Im aware of the hafs and warsh versions, they have no difference in meaning. The differences are as Tomato=Tomatoe. There are 10different ways of reciting Quran, which don’t change meaning, only letter emphasis and such.

Certainly God can preserve any book as he pleases. In the Quran we are promised of its preservation (15:9). God doesn’t do the same for the Bible. Does he?

[aalh020]

@ZachWhosoever Hi Zach : ) First, as you may know the Quran is memorized orally. When the memorizers tranfered that to text, the differences in Arabic dialect from country to country brought about these discrepancies. Uthman ensured that the written form was available only in one dialectic. And that any forgered chapters were destroyed. While the written forgeries were burned, only God can destroy memories to ensure they aren’t passed down.

[ZachWhosoever]

@aalh020

we know that there are STILL variations in Quran versions, such as the Hafs and Warsh transmissions. I'll provide examples if you need them, but I'm trying to provide the broad perspective here. I see also that you've noted changes in the Old and New Testaments, both of which contain many, MANY scriptures that Muslims say were inspired by Allah. But you note that there have been changes to these scriptures. So my next criticism would be, how is it that Allah can preserve the perfect

[ZachWhosoever]

@aalh020

leaving on final authoritative version of the Quran, which has been held as 'unchanged' to this day. These are not made up ideas, but facts about Islamic scriptural history that we know to be true. So we know that the Quran is not of 'one author, one form'. My question to you would be, if the Quran was a perfectly preserved form from the start, why would Caliph Uthman produce an authoritative version and burn all the others?

Now when it comes to the infallibility of the Quran, we

[ZachWhosoever]

@aalh020

there were different versions of the Quran being recited in Syria, Armenia and Iraq. Uthman saw this as an unacceptable threat to the unity of the Quran and called upon the second caliph, Zaid to oversee the writing of the final AUTHORITATIVE Quran that would become the Muslim standard. Once Uthman/Zaid's version was completed, they had multiple copies made and distributed to Islamic learning centers in Mecca, medina, Basra, Damascus and other cities. All copies were burned, thus

[ZachWhosoever]

@aalh020

The Quran is not as it was originally handed down. After Muhammed died in 632, there were no complete manuscripts of the Quran. It took years to collect the manuscripts that would be used to form the authoritative Quran. The second caliph, Umar, commanded that a collection of the Quran be made so that it wouldn't fade away, and all the different parts of Muhammad's 'revelation were pieced together. A while later, during the reign of the third caliph, Uthman, the leader was told that

[ZachWhosoever]

@aalh020

Hello, I'm Zach. Thought I'd interject here. I know there's a lot of different subjects here, but I do feel that I should correct you on one error you've made concerning your faith in the Quran. If you take a look at the history of the Quran, you'll see that there hasn't always been 'one form' of it. Though it is what it looked like in the 7th century, I would confidently challenge that the Quran isn’t in the same form as it was when it was handed down by Muhammad. There ARE variations

[spursell93]

How can use scripture from one part of the Bible, but you don't trust scripture in another part of the Bible? Jesus said in John 8:58 i think, "Before Abraham was, I AM!" It comes as a whole, you can't take parts of the Bible, you need to trust it as a whole.

[aalh020]

@spursell93 Kindly, the Gospel of John is a book of the new testament. The subject here is the God of the Old Testament.

[spursell93]

@aalh020 It's the same thing though.. The God of the Old Testament IS the God of the New Testament :)

[aalh020]

@spursell93 Yes, but the new Testament was tampered with, and thats why its so confusing:

At the time the Roman government had 3 branches and so they forced the Christians to introduce trinity into the new Testament.

Go ahead and google 'roman government three' and see the first link.

[spursell93]

@aalh020 Second, in the Quran, Surah 3:3-4 talks about how the Injil or Injeel is from God. The Injil is the New Testament. Why would the Quran tell you to follow and trust the New Testament if it had been tampered with? I don't see anywhere where the New Testament had been tampered with. It all lines up with the Old Testament. I just wanna point out the reason I'm spending so much time on this is because I care. :)

[aalh020]

@spursell93 First, Im glad you care :) so iv prepared a realy long reply for you lol. will take 3-4comments.

Sorry for the confusion, resource was only meant to show that Romans had a 3 branch gov. If you want to read some evidence google ‘325 council of nicaea’, second link.

[aalh020]

@spursell93 Second,

The important parts? I’d say all of it is important, and it should be 100% If talk onlyEnglish translations,1 clear difference is that the catholic bible [c. 325 A.D] contains 73 books while Protestant Bible contains 66. And although the newer Protestant version was taken from the Catholic Bible even then these books do not match completely with each other.The same goes for the Koine Greek, and Latin versions the English translations are derived from.

[spursell93]

@aalh020 Sorry, what I meant by "important" parts was everything lines up, except there are a few times where it says a diff number of men in diff translations, actually its funny, I was thinking of the exact 2nd Samuel scripture you referred to in your fourth point lol. But numbers like that are minor details, but everything else lines up.

[aalh020]

@spursell93 Third,

The Quran also says "We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that we bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it..." 2:286. The lessons of the bible are reiterated in the Quran, so there’s no command to read it, however, scholars use it for commentary of verses. Example the story of david (as) and goliath is mentioned briefly in the Quran while retaining the lesson, while the bible gives a more detailed story.

[spursell93]

@aalh020 Two more things, haha sorry :).. So the verse you quoted 2:286 bothers me. You say the Quran is from God, Allah, right? How can God give 'better' scripture than He did before? God is perfect, so the words He said in the Quran are no better than what He said before it. Why would He say He's giving 'better' verses? That's like He's saying He messed up the first time...

[aalh020]

@spursell93 Fourth, Tamper was the wrong word, better is ‘lost/change in trnsltion’. The Jews wud all be christian if thts what old testament sez. I think its bias translation, whch makes big difference when its done again and again. I.e Hebrew to latin to English.

Theres also issues of authorship. (whos mathew?) Internal mistakes (eg 2nd Samuel 10:18 David says he killed 7000 men and 40000 on horseback. In 1st Chronicles 19 mentions same story but he killed 70000 men and the 40000 on foot. .

[spursell93]

@aalh020 And last thing for now :)... He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Surah 3:3... What's the point in reading the Quran if you have not yet first read the Torah AND the Gospel, if the whole point of the Quran is to confirm the Torah and the Gospel? I just wanna encourage you to read the Gospel, if you only read one book out of the Bible, read the Gospel John. You can read it at blb.org :)

[aalh020]

@spursell93 Your a nice guy, a true Christian.

I have read some of the new Testament and I sometimes read small parts of the Old testament.

Now I encourage you to read Chapter 19 of the Quran, its titled after Mary mother of Jesus (as).

[spursell93]

@aalh020 So, I have a couple of questions lol... First, why do the chapters in the Quran have to be so long?! lol :)... so second, it was saying Us, We, and Our alot. What does it all mean?.. I have other questions, but I'll ask em later :)

[aalh020]

@spursell93 Haha some are v.short but I thought you'd appreciate the story of Mary (as).

It uses 'we' and 'our' bcoz we believe God cant be compared to anything in life, if we use the word 'him' it implies he has gender and is a man. On the other hand we dont call God 'it' out of respect. So 'We' and 'Our' are used.

NB: when reading in english, you will find the word 'him' used, but thats because semitic language tie gender within verbs and adjectives.

[aalh020]

@dillo45 The angel is Gabriel (puh), he appears as a man before Mary (puh) to tell her that God has chosen her to give birth to Jesus (puh) a prophet of God. Jesus (puh) was an imaculate conception he had no father, just as Adam (puh) had no father. They are both prophets and miracles of God.

However if your implying that the Quran eludes that Jesus (puh) is a son of God then your are mistaken, the Quran makes it very clear that God is not begot, not was he begotten (Surah 112)

[dillo45]

@aalh020

No you are fault. read it carefully. the messenger Gabriel said to Mary that God would sent His angel, and this angel will become as an Holy son.

Mary responded to Gabriel, she didnt respond to God.

That means that gabriel said that God would send an angel, why would gabriel say that God is sending gabriel to give a message if gabriel already was there to give the message that somebody would come.

So this angel is not gabriel, this angel is from God and become a Holy man

[aalh020]

@dillo45 Gabriel (puh) doesnt say an angel will come. He says that a pure son will be born.

No offence, but your english is a little poor, better to read it in your native language so you dont misunderstand.

[dillo45]

@aalh020

dont let me laugh you idiot.

Who is talking in the first 2 lines?

[aalh020]

@dillo45 You mean first 2 verses? God is talking. What's your point genius?

[dillo45]

@aalh020

So you are saying that Mary responded to God.

It was not God. Gabriel, quoted what he should say. and she was afraid of him. not from God.

after that, gabriel said again, no im just a messenger of thy Lord to announce to thee the gift of a holy son.

So gabriel is just repeating the first 2 verses that God would send His angel and this angel will appear as an man in all respects.

[aalh020]

@dillo45 where does Gabriel (puh) say that God would send an angel? Quote please.

[dillo45]

@aalh020

its very simple I will repeat it again.

Look read it carefully. "X" is telling to Mary that an angel come down that appear as a man in all respects.

Mary responded to "X"

And "X" is saying, dont be afraid im a messenger of God and repeat again that a Holy man is coming.

If the first verse was God; God would say: i will send my angel to tell Mary that she is pregnant.

but He didnt say that. He said. the angel that would come down will appear as a man in all respects.

[dillo45]

@aalh020

and gabriel is just quoting what God said.

if you have still problems with this text you should search for a doctor.

[aalh020]

@dillo45

In verse 18, Mary (puh) speaks to the angel. she says "I seek refuge in the most merciful from you"

verse 17 God says "...we sent our ANGEL to her presented as a man"

The distinction between God, the Angel and pure son, is very clearly defined, without any ambiguity whatsoever.

[dillo45]

@aalh020

So you want to say: the angel gabriel didnt say anything to her. God said we sent her our angel.

and Mary responded to gabriel, while he didnt say anything. is that truly what you belief?

[aalh020]

@dillo45 the angel did speak to her in verse 19 and 21 etc. but he never said he was the son, as your suggesting.

[dillo45]

@aalh020

no im not saying that at all. you cant read. when did i said that gabriel would be the son.

alright let say it in another way. To who or what did Mary respond in verse 18

[aalh020]

@dillo45 to the angel before her as a man...

[dillo45]

@aalh020

Mary responded to Gabriel, and Gabriel quoted what God said to him what he should say to Mary.

So Gabriel said to Mary, you will have a son. this son is coming from God, and he will come down as an angel and when he will born, he will appear as a man in all respect (and later he said Holy man, its the same). if you read it just carefully, that is the best interpretation you can get. if not explain it to me

[aalh020]

@dillo45

Gabriel (puh) DOESNT say the son will be an angel.

Gabriel (puh) speaks in verse 17&19 only and doesnt even say the word angel.

with all due respect, ur interpretation is completely FALSE.

[dillo45]

@aalh020

again, thats not what i said. i never said the son will be an angel.

now you are saying that gabriel spoke in verse 17. did you even read verse 17. it says: then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

So gabriel said to mary that God will send an angel, and he will appear a before her as a man in all respects.

why would gabriel say that God is sending him to give an message to her. thats not what we can read.

continue...

[aalh020]

@dillo45 you said verbatim "So Gabriel said to Mary, you will have a son. this son is coming from God, and he will come down as an angel..."

Sorry not 17, I meant 19 & 21.

its inconvenient commenting on youtube, if u want to continue this interesting conversation please add me on gmail:

odr.cod@gmail.com

[dillo45]

@aalh020

Look, as i said before. Jesus does not have a biological father. Jesus came into this world, thanks to the Spirit of God. They meant that whit the angel. We know this angel in the Old Testament too, with Abraham, Moses and Daniel. they saw this Angel too, or they heard him. Paul saw this Angel too in the New Testament. This Angel is Jesus. Jesus already was with God, before He was born.

[aalh020]

@dillo45 Adam (puh) didnt have a biological father either, Nor a mother. Does that make him God?

In Islam we believe in the Holy spirit but that he's an Angel not God or Jesus (puh).

[dillo45]

@aalh020

I thought you would say that. and the answer is no. If u read the Bible you get those answers.

But however we belief this. Adam has no biological father like you said. but Adam is created by God, so he is in another way the son of God that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is not created by God, but He created everything. John 1.

[dillo45]

@aalh020

But you say you belief in the Holy Spirit? So what is this Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead. God the Father is the First Person of the Godhead. So there is just one missing. and that is this Angel that has The Holy Spirit, or the Spirit of God too. This Angel has the Spirit of God and that is making Him God too.

[aalh020]

@dillo45 I believe the Holy Spirit is an Angel of God, which was sent to Jesus (puh).

how can a human being create the universe? a human being who sleeps and eats. Only an enternal and omnipotent can.

Did Abraham (puh) worship Jesus (puh)? did Noah, Moses, David or Solomon (put)? No.

You should worship your creator, the Father, father to us all (John 20:17)

[dillo45]

@aalh020

it is funny that you say the Father, because muhammad denied that God is a Father of all of us.

And that is the point of Chrstianity, Jesus as I said before was not a human being, He was God who created all things. and came into this world as a servant and to die for our sin.

[dillo45]

@aalh020

this is also prophesied in the Old Testamt. that the Kingdom of God would come on earth. everything would happen in Israel. In the Old Testament states that God will born in Bethlehem. He will have the name Immanuel what means "God with us". Then they would go to Egypt, because its to dangerous to stay in bethlehem because the king would kill all the kids there. I can show you all these verses. But we can chat further on gmail, i already added you. it is frsachba@gmail.com

[dillo45]

@aalh020

and i dont have gmail

[dillo45]

@aalh020

Gabriel said that God would sent an angel, because the angel of God would appear as a man in all respects.

this angel is not gabriel, because gabriel was already with Mary, to give the message that she would have a son. and this son is the angel. So the Spirit who came down will born. thanks to this Spirit of God, Jesus could be borned, because he doesnt have a biological father. He has a Spiritual Father, but thats another subject i dont want to begin with that now.

[dillo45]

@aalh020

Philippians 2:6-8

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

[spursell93]

@aalh020 Hey sorry I haven't replied back in awhile lol... So i wanna talk a little more about the accuracy of the Quran and the Gospels... The Gospels are eyewitness accounts, and God inspired them to write what was going on. John the Gospel is accurate, it lines up with artifacts and, all evidence supports the Gospel of John. So I would trust when Jesus says He's God because everything in John is supported by other evidence.

[spursell93]

@aalh020 And the Quran, obviously Muhammad wasn't there to see and hear what was said. I mean, Jesus never said that He was a prophet.. I'm just saying, the Quran couldn't have been inspired by God because the Quran contradicts the Bible, and the Bible was inspired by God.. The things is, the Bible hasn't and can't be proven wrong because it is the Truth... I hope you do listen, I have such a heart for Muslims, I want yall to know the truth, my heart longs for yall to know the truth

[aalh020]

Muahmmad (puh) wasnt there to see everything that happended with Jesus (puh) or the other messengers, he only recited the word of God that was spoken to him.

The Quran doesnt contradict the Bible, I guarantee you that every single thing you love about christianity is in Islam, except for the trinity.

Is it so hard to accept that the Arabs have a prophet of their own?

[spursell93]

@aalh020 It's not hard accept that the Arabs have a prophet of their own. It's just hard for me to accept that ya'll are following a false prophet :(... I guarantee you, it contradicts.. 3:3-4 talks about the Quran confirming the Injeel, where Jesus says He's God, but later on in the Quran it says Jesus said He's not God?? No, it most definitely contradicts itself. If it contradicts itself, I would not believe what it has to say... In fact, if I was to read and fully trust the Quran it would....

[spursell93]

@aalh020 Sorry, trust was not the right word.. If I was to read the Quran with an open mind it would lead me away from Islam, because it does not say the same thing throughout the whole book....

[spursell93]

@aalh020 Please ask questions if you have any, I so want to help explain as much as I can :)

[aalh020]

@spursell93 Man I love Jesus (puh) more than I love myself, but even more I love my Creator, and with full conviction, I prostrate five times a day to my Creator to lead me to truth. If he wants me to worship another he would have led me.

[spursell93]

@aalh020 If it's Satan you're worshiipping, there's no way he would try to lead you to God....

[aalh020]

@spursell93 Lastly, sorry its so song.

Id like to bring up that the Quran has one author, one form, no internal inconsistencies, and memorized word-for-word by over 20million currently. Considering the level of corruption in the Arabic world, it can only be explained by divine intervention. The speaker in the video brought up that Muhammad (saws) never made miracles like Moses and Jesus (as), but the Quran is the miracle.

[siyovushtj]

MashaAllah ( Praise to Allah )

[shezie125]

Oh wow, this was great!!!!