"Citation is the only horse I ever saw make 3 runs in a Derby. Arcaro rode him like he was driving a Cadillac...push on the gas, let up, push on the gas, let up...and on that final push, that was it...he ran by Coaltown like Coaltown broke his leg!!"
we certainly have been fortunate to have such grand athletes in our thoroughbreds....today we have so many horses running from the starting gates it takes away from the possiblity or showing just what a horse can do.
Very hard to make an argument against this horse being the best 3yo ever and possibly best horse. He beat champion older horses in the first part of the year something none of the others did as far as I know. Very nice video, thanks for sharing.
@Icyhotboo Yes...There were lots of great horses, but not one did what he did at three..won 19 for 20 (an interferance 6f loss), beat older horses 7 times, an easy TC, raced in 7 states, 10 tracks, every distance, hard, wet, didn't matter to him...ran the Pimlico Special solo, no owner would challenge him...if he hadn't been hurt at Tanforan and raced at Santa Anita, would probably be hailed at the greatest American horse...first horse to win a million more important to W. Wright..
@1948BigCy Not to mention he was injured his 4yo season and did not race. When they brought him back as a 5yo he was virtually lame but as you pointed out his owner wanted to have the first million dollar horse. At the end of his 3yo season his record stood at 29/27-2-0 and one of those losses was to his stabemate because the jockeys were given orders that whoever was first in the stretch was not to be passed as they wanted a 1-2 finish the other to "saggy" on an off track he beat in a rematch
@Icyhotboo Yeah, people don't realize how tough it is to keep a horse from racing for a year, then bring him back, esp. a horse like Cy...but he broke a record, and was beaten by Noor, who carried 22 pounds less at one point...and Cy barely loss...2 wins, 5 seconds, not bad...and Noor had to break American/World records to beat him...people don't know that...San Capistrano photo finish that Cy lost...greatest race ever by those who saw it...no other horse like him...
secretariat owns the records but citation was the best in my opinion.times only count in prison.he ran all the races and beat all the competition.man o war is still the greatest of all time with citation a close second and count fleet/secretariat in third respectfully.native dancer could easily be in third.if these horses were actors,then man o war is john wayne,citation is stallone and secretariat is arnold.my opinion only.i got kelso right up there too
@eckythimble Horses born later, have an age disadvantage. So, rule of thumb was always that horses be born between march and may. Now, this is important because that means that mating or breeding season is set for foals te be born in that period. So you are very likely to see a lot of horse born in the sign of aries.
A champion horse needs all the right components including good bloodlines, and good care and training, and most of all conformation.
@Vrahos Thanks for your interesting explanation, very informative. I just read it now. March to May period does cover both Aries and Taurus however. So in a race of the star signs, the only top 40 horse who is a proven Taurus - Forego - would have a rather tough time matching it against the Aries' represented by: Sec, MOW, Cy, Kelso, ND, Cigar, Bold Ruler, Easy Goer, Round Table, Count Fleet, Alydar, Whirlaway, Skip Away, Gallant Fox, Ruffian & Assault.
...which is perhaps not surprising as Taureans - whether horse, human or even cat or dog - are known to focus on comfort, calmness and patience, whereas Arians are known for being more temperamental with a near obsessive need to prove themselves to themselves, especially in indivualistic contests such as "racing" of any kind. Even Forego's sprinting style bears this out. He wound up very gradually down the home stretch as other horses faded, rather than blitzing them with acceleration ala Sec.
@eckythimble Yes, but look at more clues, because obviously there are different aspects among horses born in Aries. Being born in Aries alone does not do it.
You will see that the greats have another thing in common (aspects). They need to be competitive, but also motivated and energized. Their vocation needs to fit for running.
@Vrahos Ok, I see Mars trine Pluto gives a lot of will-power, Moon in Capricorn trine Saturn a double ability to discipline emotions for the sake of a goal. Sun trine Neptune would give an intuitive ability to know when to act. Sun in the 4th house, I guess is someone motivated to perform for their "family". Did I miss any?
@eckythimble You are right. I did the same research and have the same conclusion. There are however exceptions and there is a reasonable explenation. Being from Holland you need to look up the great Henry Buitenzorg, best horse there and born on jan 1st. generally speaking horses born before spring need to stay indoors longer, and don't develop as good as when they go outdoors immediately.
Big Cy was a great horse in his time just like MOW. But at 2:28 1/5 at the Belmont compared to Secretariets 2:24 is beyond anyones comprehension. The greatest Triple Crown winner is Secretariet. Hands down and no ands ifs buts about it. Eddie Arcaro mentioned that Citation was the best he had ever ridden but he was careful about his words because he also mentioned that Secretariet is the best he had ever seen. RIP Big Cy
@stephen39217 I really don't want to get into this again becuz I'll never change your mind...BTW, RIP Sect. He's dead too. Your apparently know nothing about racing...At 3, 19 for 20, beats older horses 7/7, two in Feb., beats them with only three days rest, runs a race btwn the Preakness and Belmont...Sect was a great horse, but no horse did what Big Cy did at 3...certainly not Sect...One fast race does not make a horse the greatest...
@1948BigCy It is really apparent that you have diminished reading or seeing skills. I did not mention anywhere that Citation was not a great horse. Plus I only mentioned that when it comes to the Triple Crown the records stand for Secretariet. The numers speak for themself at all three races. I know exact;y what Cy did in his career and certainly should be mentioned as one of the greatest horses. Read the entire statement instead of taking words out of context you idiot.
@stephen39217 Sect ran the fastest TC. Fact. On really fast tracks. Cy had two sloppy ones. He was under wraps, as one can see, at the finish of the Belmont. It is relative time that counts, not absolute.
Now please...if you wish to discuss Sect, go to a Sect site...not here...
...at university, I can assure you this is a clear, statistically significant result. Also notable, the first documented horse born in late April appears at just #48, Personal Ensign. As for science, it was originally developed as a method of testing hypotheses as opposed to the blind judgment and is usually based on statistical evidence. I have just shown you statistical evidence which disproves the hypothesis that birth date is irrelevant for greatness rankings amongst American racehorses.
@eckythimble A pox on you! I can't this out of my head! Is Sept/Oct south of the equator Aires too?
Gestation for a mare is 340 days, 11.3 months on average. While means breeding time is also in the springtime...but why would owners want their horses to be born as close to Jan 1 as possible? It would seem to given them an advantage...is there a rule?...on average, fillies take less time in utero than colts do...
@1948BigCy Ok, at risk of repeating myself I’ll make my final post on this subject: Aries is the period of 21 Mar-19 Apr on both sides of the equator. 30 observations are generally regarded as being the minimum required to support hypothesis testing. Since we're testing USA horses born between Feb and May I'll have to exclude Phar Lap and add 9 more horses to reach a sample of 30. Having done that with the available data I found 4 of the next best 9 are again Aries. Now we have 18 out of the
top 30 American horses (60%) for which exact birthdates are known being Aries, born in a period which covers 22% of the full range of birthdates. 2. Statistics does not actually progress science by proving hypotheses correct, but by providing evidence to prove hypotheses incorrect. 3. Correlation exists when there is co-movement of data but no hypothesis, causation when there is a hypothesis and I have already presented mine. In astrology, birthdate is said to strongly influence character.
What it all means is that compared to Aquarius, Pisces, Taurus and Gemini horses: 1. There have been far more Aries champions. 2. The Aries horses are those whose character generally leaves the strongest impression in the memory as there as something unconventional/tempestuous about almost every Aries creature. Be it Ruffian refusing anyway past at the front, Zenyatta attacking from way behind, Whirlaway riding the outside rail, MOW being impossible to handle off the track, Cit kicking people,
@eckythimble That's ridiculous. First, there are many horse of whom we don't know their exact birthdate. 2. Champions is a personal definition. 3. Sotemia, Kincsem, other great horses of the past aren't even considered. 3. Range is deceptive: Cy has larger average winning margins at 3 except that Sec's Belmont thrown a money wrench in the average. 4. Your statistics have nothing to do with science; astrology is not even pseudo-science, but superstition...cont.
@1948BigCy Tell me the birthdates of Sotemia, Kincsem and we can talk again. My model is in fact predictive. If you do an interpolated forecast and ask yourself at the end of each decade since the 1920s, who the greatest horse of the decade was, in the vast majority of cases the answer is an Aries. 20’s – MOW, 30’s – War Admiral (“fiery temperament” says Wikipedia = Aries the fire sign says astrology), 40’s – Cy, 50’s – Native Dancer, 60’s Kelso, 70’s Sec, 90’s – Cigar, 00’s – Zenyatta.
@eckythimble Kincsem was a Hungarian mare in the 1870's; started 53 times and never lost. Sotemia, another mare, in 1910, ran 4 miles and holds the world record. The both must be Aries, right? Astrology always has an out...in fact, as I said, many of the horses you name are not the same, which is why astrology is a simplistic, foolish...Cy was not like Whirly who was not like Sec who was MOW...if you knew anything about racing you would know that...
@1948BigCy E.g. MOW – Mars in Aries, means he’ll want the lead and fight like a maniac to keep it, Cit – Mars in Pisces means intuitively aware of others around him but may become “psyched out” and despondent if the opposition gets one or two over him, e.g. Noor. Sec Mars in Taurus = means physically slow to start, but then gradually starts to move like an “incredible machine”. The main point is that Aries horses enjoy winning more than other horses, will need less whipping, etc. That's it.
@eckythimble Nonsense. First of all, the descriptions are not true, and second, even if they were, you have no way of proving that the constellations and planets have anything to do with it. Cy wasn't "psyched out". Out of service for a year, he was lugging a lot more weight than Noor, who had to set records to barely beat him. Sec...slow to start in the Belmont? His most famous race? Your last sentence is factually unsubstantiated, esp. the whipping part. Absolute nonsense.
@eckythimble Did you ever hear of "rating"? Not letting the horse run full out so he won't tire himself...The Count was said to rate himself..Others need jockeys to rate them...Sec was whipped plenty of times in the Derby...Cy in the Stars/Stripes...jockeys know when they need it not to lose, since winning is the name of the game...Sec lost the lead twice in 1973...But I'm sure you'll find artificial explanations in the stars, instead of "real" reasons in reality...
Many of the things that make life worth living have no physical scientific basis – try “adoration of long dead horses” for one – by your own reasoning, shame on you also for engaging in that. There are plenty of metaphysical forces lurking underneath the thin varnish of physical phenomena that are beyond the access of our physical senses. And the astral bodies of the planets are merely one of these. Newton postulated that every object in the universe exerts a force on every other object,
@eckythimble You should publish a DRF for Space Cadets...with a Ram on the cover...
Aside from the astrology, you statistics are skewed and don't prove anything, except what you want them to prove. No random sampling, too small a sample, and in your case, the nail in the coffin, no consideration of other variables, and a total distortion of the facts as you present them. A stat is a stat is a stat...and turns deadly when mixed with metas...but it still isn't truth...
@1948BigCy In that case you should publish the "Ignorance-Is-Bliss Guide to Statistics". You ignore the objective evidence which - despite your ill-founded and repetitive pleas - actually DOES meet all modern accepted scientific criteria, due to an unscientific emotional attachment to childhood views which automatically exclude all other alternatives, "a priori". Because you don't "like" the theory you refuse to let yourself even look at the bare facts. In science, "like" counts for nothing.
@eckythimble WHAT THEORY? Based on astrology, recognized as nonsense by any knowledgeable person? Your knowledge of horses is miserable, and used to fit YOUR a priori concept of what the Aries horses are like.
77% of the horses, at least, are born in March-April; we don't know for many, and right there that makes the statistics questionable at best.
@eckythimble In science, facts are useless unless they explain something. If your numbers are true, what do they explain? That if my foal is born an Aries, he is more likely to be a champ? The strength of science is that it is predictive. There have been more Aries winners because their are far more horses born in the springtime, Mar/Arp, for good reasons, especially in the last 50 years. Cy didn't kick...maybe Warren Wright...he deserved it...
Count Fleet showing off with humiliating victory margins, Sec improvising new tactics as he went, etc. Even if the statistics one day shift away from supporting #1, #2 will always remain. South of the equator, there were also some champion horses but very, very few with the similar tempestuous characters as you have been saturated with in America due to the horses born under the zodiac sign of Aries.
@eckythimble See, here is where you are wrong. Cy and The Count were Aries, but had completely different temperaments, trainers, jockeys, and owners. It is big money that has destroyed horse racing. Has nothing to do with the zodiac. Shorter distances, horses raced lightly then off to stud. I'll predict right here, Affirmed is the last TC winner. The best we can hope for is 2 races. But astrology, as you have proved, explains nothing.
@1948BigCy ONLY exception is 80’s horse - John Henry, who is incidentally also the LOWEST ranked of all the above horses. Therefore I confidently predict the next horse of the decade will ALSO be an Aries, just as all the above horses were and just as 7 of the 9 known TC winners whose birthdate was known, including Gallant Fox, Omaha, Whirlaway, Count Fleet, Assault. The better the horse, the less jockeys and trainers, matter, it’s the will-to-win character which counts more.
@1948BigCy Let’s add Sham, to the above list – another Aries horse and one with the second fastest Derby (officially) and Preakness (unofficially) times of the above lot and suffered the same fate most of them would have had trying to go toe to toe with Sec in the Belmont. >> Who would be your 1-2-3 over 1.5 miles on dirt or grass anywhere in the world?
First the Blood Horse guide lends some objectivity to the definition "champion horses". There's no point mentioning Kincsem or Sotemia if you don't know their birth data, otherwise the hypothesis can't be tested either way. Anyway if you don't "believe" the hypothesis can be true in spite of the data, then even if these horses were both Aries you still wouldn't be satisfied! The champion Aries horses to me have many similarities, other planet placements reveal the differences.
@eckythimble I have already pointed out that the top twenty were NOT temperamentally the same. That the vast majority are born in Mar/Apr for a real reason. You deny that trainers and jockeys make a BIG difference. Ben Jones made Whirly the winner he was.
Astrology has no scientific basis...shame on you. I'm not an owner or trainer. You should talk to some of them and express your ideas...maybe they would understand you and agree...I sure as heck don't!
if there is a metaphysical universe then it’s not a stretch to postulate that similar laws apply there. What can be observed is that these same astral bodies ensure that babies born under the Taurus Sun are extremely slow to change their opinion on anything ranging from their favorite beer or pizza… or horse… to their working philosophy, no matter what the evidence. So using this valuable information I’ll now call it quits on this subject. I’ve got other projects to attend to. Adios!
@eckythimble Darn right I ask for evidendce b4 I'll change my mind...beer? matter of taste, not evidence...you reveal the shallowness of your thinking...using statistics to prove an astrological claim is like mixing oil and water...like trying to prove creationism by using the known fossil record...at best, laughable...
I hope your "other" projects are more legitimate and valid, because this was simple-minded and uninformative...you must be a Taurus...Ciao!
@1948BigCy My knowledge is very much "a posteriori", having tested literally hundreds if not thousands of people and later animals, on the relation between their characters and their natal horoscope. Oh, and now I can add one more case to my database of evidence as another youtuber has commented on you that you won't change your mind "until the cows come home", the classic character trait of the patient yet stubborn Taurean!
@eckythimble REALL? I TOLD you I was a Taurus...would you have known without my telling you? And on our short little comments here you can add me to your database of "hits"...well researched! My brother is also a Taurus, April 30...but guess what? We are very different characters...better not interview him...I suppose you read pro-Secretariat folks who tried to convince me that his 9 for 12 is better than 19 for 20 (Cy). That's common sense, no stubborness....
@1948BigCy P.s. by continually lumping up all the days in Mar-Apr together without disecting them as needed to test the hypothesis, you reveal your scatter-gun approach to science. As any scientist knows, detailed analysis without details leads to nothing. Either you don't have much Virgo in your natal horoscope, or else you're not using it.
@eckythimble Well, I don't know about the Virgo, but I'm hooked...where are most of the horse ranches? Kentucky is by far the most, with CA second. You see, the states with cold winters are likely to have their foals born in Mar/Apr, while CA, FLA, where winters are warm are likely to have their foals born earlier.. I am not testing any hypotheses as you are...I am just looking for a scientific, rational reason for the results..."The fault dear Brutus is not in our stars"...
@1948BigCy Classic feedback, if there's one thing Taureans are even more famous for than stubborness, it's their "common sense" - to use your own description.
Your brother will have other placements of moon, ceres, etc. But I bet he respects "common sense" similarly as you do. Try speaking to an Aquarian they don't care for this virtue at all.
Another Taurean trait: good in dealing with money: it's why they generally make good buyers/budgeters/bankers... they have the famous 'nose for value'.
@1948BigCy I also note the greatest Taurean horse Forego does not have the dazzling accleration of a Sec, Big Cy, Zenyatta, he tended to doggedly grind it out down the straight. No overtaking the whole field in the first bend, settling down then sprinting again at the end for him. Taureans are not known for quick changes in speed, everything goes gradually with them as they don't like to be hurried into sudden changes by anyone - ceteris paribus.
@eckythimble Forego, a gelding, carried huge loads that Sec didn't and Cy did, and Zeny of course didn't. I don't think it is a fair comparison, certainly a poor way to make your point which is what? So far all I've heard is "Yeah, well if you are different then your moorns, planets, etc., must have been in different places",
By the way, my brother is good with money, but I am not (that's why I shop at the 99 cent stores and Wal-Mart). Gotta check my star/planet chart, damn
@1948BigCy Well I don't recall Forego showing dazzling acceleration at 3yrs carrying less weights, correct me if I'm wrong. As for money I meant spending it, not earning it. If you know exactly which article is cheapest in which shop, then you're a Taurean. I have a 5x Taurean friend whom I always ask before making a big purchase or service contract, he's saved me heaps. Cancers are usually best at earning, they avoid all responsibility via emotional tactics (cry) yet take home the most pay.
... "yet take home the most pay (cry even harder), it's beautifully simple." Point is you're born with a set of planet placements which deeply determine your character by programming the astral energy vortexes in your spine at birth. Daily choices are always your own discretion of course. Then you live and only to the extent that you learn anything via the consequences of your choices, do these energy vortexes slowly start to change and your character strengthens. It's the school called life.
Ooops... one more: Triple Crown winner Affirmed, described by her jockey Laffit Pincay here on youtube as a "kind", responsive horse who immediately sensed what you wanted him to do. Which is very similar to what the Babylonians knew the sun in Pisces character to be all those centuries ago and quite different again to either Aries, Libra or Leo.
@eckythimble I place astrology beside spiritualism and other non-scientific nonsense...if the great majority of ALL horses are born in Mar/Apr, why is it surprising that a majority of the great ones are born at that time? Sorry, but I can't see your point...what about the exceptions, like Swaps?
@1948BigCy What's not to understand? Of the 61 days in Mar/Apr I am actually referring to just 29 days, less than half (47.5%) of Mar/Apr. There were champions born from 15 Feb (Seattle Slew) to 27 May (Northern Dancer) a range of 132 days. The 21 Mar-19 Apr zone covers just 22% of this range, yet within it fall 14 from 22 (63.6%) of the top all time 35 horses for which the birth dates are known (exc. Aries: Sham and Zen), inc. the top 5 straight. Having taught statistics... (cont)
@eckythimble To be fair, I flunked statistics in college. I'm a believer in "anyone can quote a statistic to prove anything." And when you add horoscopes/astrology, well...It seems that your sample is not large enough to be significant...is your result causative or simply a coincidence? Are you saying your finding is "scientific"...that it can be tested? You also have to rule out every other possible causative factor before claiming your theory correct..that's science
@eckythimble I don't see what the range has to do with it. The vast majority of horses, esp today, are born in Apr/May today\, in spite of the fact that they are considered 1 year old whenever they are born. That is because of several factors having to do with breeding. That 63.2% of the top horses are born in less than half the months of Mar/Apri, might be meaningful to a statistician/astrologer, but what that meaning is escapes my plaintive brain...
MOW refusing to lose at all except for once case of jockey error; Kelso carrying several big weights to victory in handicap races; Cy and Cigar each winning 16 races in a row; Zenyatta wining 19 dramatic races in a row starting from last position. Incidentally I would be curious to know the precise birthdate of #6 horse Dr Fager who from a distance seemed to have a double dose of the “headstrong” characteristic.
- Examples: Sec going to the limits at Belmont without one whip even when there was no one left to beat; Sham trying to match Sec’s normally suicidal pace in each triple crown race until he physically succumbed half-way through the last one; Sec inventing a last-to-first technique at the first bend of the Preakness just to see if he could; Ruffian continuing to run on a smashed hoof in her tragic last race; Alydar going stride for stride on the outside bend with Affirmed at the Belmont; (cont)
are prepared to push themselves over their normal limits for the glory of victory, enjoy showing off their talents to an audience… and once told where the goal-post (figuratively and literally) is generally do not need to be whipped too much to get there as they want to win for themselves anyway. (cont)
Don't say I didn't warn you it was from left field... They were all born in a narrow 29 day range from March 21 – April 19, corresponding to the zodiac period of Aries. Since the time of the Babylonians this period of the year has been characterized by living beings who: psychologically detest losing, never ever give up, are highly creative, headstrong and usually insist on doing things their own way against conventional wisdom, (cont)
@eckythimble Left field??? This is out of the park!! Astrology? Ares? What about the horses born in that time period who don't exhibit those characteristic? How about horses who DO exhibit these same characteristic but are not born under the Ares sign? Actually, I partly saw myself in that description and I am a Taurus!! But thanks...it was a nice change of pace!!!
@1948BigCy - It may seem strange, but that doesn't mean it can't be true. Firstly I would say name one horse born in this period who has none of these traits. Secondly, horses outside of this period can have some of these traits to a "lesser extent" if they have Aries placed in a planet rather than the sun. A Taurean sun horse would generally be a steady, one-pace, endurance type. You can find your hidden Aries mercury/venus etc here: astro.com/cgi/genchart.cgi (also select ceres & eris).
@eckythimble Well, it is less strange when you realize that the great majority of ALL thoroghbreds are foaled in the months of March and April...that's a fact...springtime...at least north of the Equator...
South of the Equator, Argentina and Australia for example, most colts are foaled in October, September...autumn up here, but springtime down under...Phar Lap was born in October...
@1948BigCy Actually I already realised that most northern hemisphere horses are born in the spring, although some are born in February like Seattle Slew and Spectacular Bid. That said, if you ran a regression of the number of horses born during late winter - spring versus the number of TOP horses, the results would be clearly statistically significant - the Aries have it by far over the neighbouring signs in the USA at least. (cont)
Funny you mentioned "Big Red" Phar Lap. An American 1932 newspaper article notes Americans were "disappointed with his amusing docility". Well of course, Phar Lap was a Libra, whose character is exactly opposite of the Aries champions they were accustomed to like MOW! So while Phar Lap shared the same nickname of MOW and Sec, he clearly did not share their firey temperament. One 'advantage' Libran horses do have is that they work much more cooperatively with their jockeys (Sec take note!)
Last horse I would like to mention today is 2010 WTRR World Champion Sprinter, Black Caviar who currently has 13 from 13 wins. She runs exactly as you would expect a Leo to, NEVER boxed in on the rails, NEVER straining around the outside, nor risking spectacular crowd-pleasing (Aries) tactics like Sec or Zenyatta. Instead she always commands a position front and centre, then parades down the centre of the straight to victory, easing up on the line, with the dignity that befits her character.
All of these arguments are about DIFFERENCES, so here's a little something from left field to liven up this debate a little.
What do the TOP FIVE Blood-Horse magazine horses of the 20th century: 1. MOW 2. Sec 3. Cy 4. Kelso 5. Fleet ... as well as 14 from 22 of the top 35 runners for which this FACT is known, including Ruffian, Native Dancer, Cigar, Alydar... PLUS a couple of extra handy horses not mentioned in the above list - Sham and Zenyatta - ALL HAVE IN COMMON?
Did you know Citation used to kick people? Like, a lot. He also tripped to his knees at the Belmont when he came out of the gate. And he still won. Amazing horse!
@evyn10014 I'm reading about Sotemia, a 5yo mare, who on 10/7/1912 at Churchill Downs, ran 4 miles in 7:10.8, for a new world record that still stands. That averages out to ~1:45/mi.. It is said that jockey just galloped her in, winning by 11 lengths...and when Sotemia returned to her stall "she looked like she could run another couple of miles..."
Now that's when horses were horses (and mares were mares!)
@1948BigCy That's pretty impressive, especially by today's fragile standards. There's some delusion going on around that there were no good horses before the golden age began in the 40's. That Man o War was the first "great" horse. There were many we don't even know about.
In fact I'd wager the "greatest, fastest horse of all time" is one we don't even know about, long before cameras and TV's and youtube...
@evyn10014 The same thought occurred to me: "How many horses that we never heard of were great or could have been?" I have a huge book that traces the history of horseracing in America since the 1700s. You known, when men wore starched collars and jackets and boaters on their heads even on hot, summer days..back before races were even timed...it was a whole different ball game back then...
Anyone know what year it was that Arcaro was interviewed there when he was talking about the trainers and owners saying Citation was the greatest three year old ever? Interesting.
@evyn10014 Back in 1948, Max Hirsch said so and Bill Finnegan...both saw MoW run...several French trainers who saw Cy run in the Jockey Gold on 3 days rest and beat older routers made similar comments..."Sunny" Jim Fitzsimmons...I mean, how many modern 3yo's win 19 for 20, with one bogus loss (Cy was pushed wide by a horse named Hefty and couldn't quite catch Saggy...nobody took the loss seriously...like MoW's loss to Upset...
Sunny Jim Fitzsimmons after Cy beat older champs in his first two races as a 3 year old..."Citation's done more than any horse I ever saw...and I saw Man o' War.". Other prominent trainers, foreign and domestic, said the same thing...so if Cy is in their estimation better than MoW, who is BH's #1....hmmm
@1948BigCy It looks to me in the interview with Arcaro that he was pretty old at the time and was clearly referring to Citation being superior to Secretariat as well. I don't know how people can argue this -- that Arcaro felt Citation was the best of all time.
@evyn10014 This interview was done for a ESPN series about TC winners in the 1990's. Eddie is interesting. First he says "Owners, I mean trainers" and people that knew...The best people to judge horses are jockeys and then trainers. Period. Eddie saw Sec't and called his Belmont for TV...he called it "exceptional" and Sec't the fastest he had ever seen...but he knew Cy, and by saying he was the greatest 3 yo who ever lived...we actually, he was being modest!!! He was great at 5, too!
In the Derby clip, the arrow points to the wrong horse. Cy was off the rail, in the back. "Citation is the only horse I ever saw make 3 runs in a Derby. Arcaro rode him just like he was driving a Cadillac...just push on the gas, let up...and on that final push, he ran by Coaltown like he broke his leg!"--Herb Stevens, trainer. "He tends to loaf when he runs out of horses to beat, so I gave him a few smacks just to keep his mind on the race."--Eddie Arcaro
@1948BigCy Kent Hollingsworth editor for Bloodhorse said the same thing that he won the Belmont without working up a lather like just Heywood Broun said as well right after the race. You gotta be kidding yourself if you think for the slightest moment Citation could have beaten Secretariat on Belmont day or any other horse in history with such ease. It wouldn't even be close. He ran fractions in 'Mud' faster than he did his Belmont & that was only in a workout. Can you 'grasp' that my good man?
@rscarbro100 MGM, you can't seem to grasp the fact that such "fantasy races" are barroom talk, as Eddie used to say. But I would like to have seen a 5 race "world series" between Sec and Cy at different distances, on different tracks, different times between races, different track conditions...and even then, it would be impossible to say one or the other was "better"...Sec may very well have won the series; my bets would be on Cy, tho...
@1948BigCy The old belt no longer fitted his large belly. They couln not buckle it. With all due respect to Citation I have absolutely find no evidence where any expert or anyone talking about Citation wining the Belmont with such ease, Especially not like all the talk how Secretariat won his without working up a lather. Even the great Red Smith stated if asked by Turcotte Secretariat could have broken the World Record set by Fiddle Isle on grass in 2:23 flat in 1970 at Santa Anita.
@1948BigCy It wasn't May 29th but March 29th when he had this workout. My mistake. He was one day from his 3rd birthday. A 2 yr. old running faster than Man 0' War could in a workout carrying 130 lbs. Man 0' War was 3 yrs of age carring 118 lbs when he won his Withers one mile in 1:35 4/5. Secretariat was just 'Jogging' And with that 'Pulling Up' another panel in 1:48 flat broke Man 0' War Dwyer record where he was ridden hard by 1 1/5 seconds. Secretariat ran with his 'Ear Pricking'.(smile)
A lot of noise has been made about Secretariat's 5 losses. Loss 1 he was impeded, loss 2 he was disqualified, loss 3 he had the abcess, loss 4 he was running a fever, loss 5 he was training for a turf race and was substituted for Riva Ridge. In each of these races the element of HUMAN error surfaces. Citation lost 10 races, twice as many as Secretariat and 4 of those were to Noor. As deserving as he was in 1948 of all the accolades he received he wasn't as good as Secretariat, or even Sham.
@MelC54 Yeah Sec fans have a zillion excuses. Other horses win when not 100%. Sec couldn't. Cy sat out his entire 4th year with injuries, came back at 5, lost to Noor, who was seriously underweighted, who had to set world and track records to barely beat Cy who carried as much as 132. Cy did things at 3 that neither Sec nor Sham even approached. Fifteen straight races is a good place to start. Beat older horses in Chicago with a wrenched hip and sprained ankle. Dream on, Mel...
@MelC54 Watch out for the imposter BigCy. You will find him over at Man 0' War Vs. Secretariat as a woman by the name of Phanatic24601. He thinks he knows all about Citation from Phil Georgeff bible Citation in a class by himself. He will never mention the opinion of the man that rode him the great Eddit Arcaro who in the last interivew he had before he died with LA Times Bill Christine where he said he rated Secretariat as the best he ever seen. BigCy is the one thats living in a 'Dream' world.
@MelC54 We have only 5 excuses for Secretariat loses But BigCy has 13. He said other horses win when not 100% And he contradicts his ownself claiming Citation had loses not being 100%. He forgets Big Red won all T.C. races in record time & the Derby & Belmont still stands, Set a world record in the M.C. race that still stands at Belmont Park & the Man 0' War race in record time. Not to mention the Gotham race. BigCy is so insane he believes Citation could have beaten Secretariat on Belmont day.
@rscarbro100 I'm really tired of arguing with you, but for the edification of others...Cy's loss at 3 was a fluke; I'll give Sec one interference if you give Cy one interference at 3. That makes Cy 20 for 20 at 3. Untouchable...We really can't talk over the third year because Sec didn't run after 3. RsCarbo is like a baby newbie because all he sees is time...he doesn't know the first thing about horseracing...
@1948BigCy No one needs to make any apologies for Citation. He raced almost as much as a three year old as Sec did in practically his whole career. Citation was an iron horse. Compare him to Secretariat at 3... laugh out loud. No comparison. 19-20? Epic.
@MelC54 BigCy is so insane he will not even accept Eddie Arcaro words. Citation could beat up on older horses like Armed who was washed up by the time he raced Citation. Armed never won a major race in 1948 or 49. He forgets to mention that. He forgets mentioning Noor carried more weight whe he kicked his ass in a time of 1:58 1/5 to Citation 1:58 4/5. Cy time was one full second slower than Secretariat when he was 'Pulled Up' running another panel in 1:57 4/5 in the Marlboro Cup race.
@rscarbro100 Cy beat 35 older horses, not just Armed, at 3, something no other horse has done...Noor only gave Cy weight, one pound, at his last race in 1950...other races Cy gave Noor much weight...Notice that Cy that Cy lost by only 3/5 of a sec in almost record time...and he was retired for the rest of the year cuz his ankle was sore...Walkover at Pimlico cuz no other horse dared face him...Sec was a beautiful, great steed...but to say he was the best cuz of a few races...horse feathers...
@1948BigCy What older horse of the ones he beat was the best BigCy & how good was he? How many of those 35 horses were 'Champion' horses?. Its kind of funny a johnnycomelatley like you claim you know more than Eddie Arcaro or even Phil Georgeff who was nothing but a track caller with a bullfrog voice who was know by all as a very 'Bias' person. Horse feathers I say BigCy, horse feathers.
@1948BigCy For someone to claim they know something about horse racing you haven't got the slightest clue of what a 'Champion' horse is. Holy Cow. Some examples. Horse of the year 2 or 3 yr. olds, T.C. champion, American champion, Handicap champion, sprint champion, etc. None of these horses you mention were not champions of anything. They were horses of no substance. I am sure they were well known in 1948 because that is about all they had. Cont.
@rscarbro100 They held track and American and world records!!! SPEED!!! RECORDS!!! The only thing that matters to you! Even Saggy held a American/World record in a 4.5 furlong sprint as a junior. Cy equaled Armed's record in the Stars and Stripes, which he won despite having a wrenched flycatcher muscle (he was bothered by tendon problems his whole life) and a sprained ankle. Yeah, real champs can win even when not 100%...
@1948BigCy None of the older horses you mention was not a 'Champion' of anything. For someone to claim they know something about horse racing you do not have a clue what a champion is. T.C. champion, american champion, champion 2 or 3 year old or a handicap & sprint champion,etc. Armed was a champion but in 48 or 49 he never won a major race. Yes, these horses were well know in 1948 but only because that was the only thing they had at that time. A thing of no 'substance' & you know it.
@1948BigCy What world records did any of these older horses hold? None that I know of & if they did Citation did not break them at 3.Citation never broke a workd record at 3. Secretariat broke world records in his workout & did some 'Pulling Up' with the greatest of ease. Even in "MUD'. Arcaro knew ezactly what CY was capable of . He knew Citation could not carry Secretariat water bucket not even in his 'Workouts'. That is the simple truth of the matter.
@1948BigCy Cy could only win 2 major races as a 2 yr. old. Now here is the unbelivable record for Secretariat. 1973 horse of the year, 1973 male horse of the yr., 1973 T.C. champion And 4 american champion male turf horse. Now thats something no 3 yr, old ever done,Besides he was voted american horse of the year as a 2 yr. old colt the first to ever done that And amercian champion 2 yr, old colt, 6 champion titles to CY 4 titles not to mention Secretariat was the best broodmare sire in 1992.Cont
@1948BigCy Not only that the greatest broke all T.C. records. Two stands today & the Preakness only tied. Had to world records & one still stands by 2 seconds. Cy at 5 did break the mile record on a super duper fast G.S. track in 1:33 3/5. A very young 3 yr, old colt by the name of Stop The Music in early spring of 1973 tied that record not having his ass whipped silly like CY did. The only thing racing was about CY was beating slow horses in 1948.
@1948BigCy Its a fact Belmont was a very fast track but the track slowed by some 4/5 of a second by Belmont day. Stop the Music ran that 1:33 3/5 a month before Belmont But a week before the Belmont he lost to Linda's Chief who won it in 1:34 4/5. Stop the Music was second in 1:35 & change. Secretariat Beyer speed figurtee was done by Beyer, Chrisr & Watchmaker. They used a .09 variant for his figure. They all knew the .05 was not correct for many reasons. Cont.
@1948BigCy Bill Nack in "The Making of a Champion" made a similar observation but rejoined stating that by race day the track had slowed. Reviewing 1974's American Racing Manual shows that beginning 4 weeks prior to the Belmont, as many as 4 main course records were set that covered distances from 5.5 to 8 furlongs. Three weeks before the race, stakes winner Stop-The-Music set the mile at 1:33 3/5s.
@1948BigCy . Two weeks later, he ran the one mile Withers and finished 3 lengths behind Linda's Chief's time of 1:34 4/5s, about seven to eight fifths slower than the record he set earlier. The track was fast but it was slowing. The day preceding the Belmont, a precocious two-year-old stakes winner Raise-A-Cup set the record for 5.5 furlongs. However, on Belmont day, though a final DRF course variant of 05 was recorded by day's end, it can be shown that the surface had in fact slowed.Cont.
@1948BigCy Sources show that the 2 dirt races preceding the Belmont Stakes recorded DRF speed ratings of 92 and 99 for one mile and one and one sixteenth miles respectively. The 99 was recorded by Forego in the 7th race that had him finish 9 lengths ahead of the rest of the field. The veteran sprinter Spanish Riddle in a stretch duel with 3 others recorded the 92. It must be noted that the DRF speed rating of 92 for Spanish Riddle's victory is in question. Cont.
@1948BigCy The mile track record that day was at 1:33 3/5 as had been set by Stop The Music the previous month. It seems that Spanish Riddle's rating had been derived not from that record but from the prior mark at 1:34 2/5s; or more accurately, his rating should have been an 88. The same error applies to the first mile contest that day that should have received a rating of 92 in place of the 96 the DRF assigned. Cont.
@1948BigCy Ruffian ran 5 panels in 57 flat. Thats not a guess but she done it. Secretariat ran a 56 4/5 in a workout. Laurin said he could ran it in 56 flat with blinkers. In a full out race for 5 panels he could have ran it in 54 & change. Secretariat was still growing after he started his 3 yr. old season. He was picking up weight between his Derby & Preakness race. They had to buy a new belt before the Preakness because his girth grew to 75". .
@1948BigCy And boy were those horses slow in 1948 that ran their MAX. speed running their tongues out trying to beat CY. None could get close to a 1:35 mile nor CY could as well for that matter. None of his competition could run a 1:10 for 6 panels against him. But when old CY went against a speed horse like Noor the tables were turned. He met up with a buzzsaw that had speed . ?Thats right BigCy it was speed that horses are best defined by how fast they run not beating up on slow horses.
Even the pros are excited about Secretariat. "I was just at the rail here at Belmont, watching one of my colts breeze, when the Big Horse worked on by," Jimmy Conway enthused over the phone this morning. "I caught him in :23, :46 4/5, and the 5 furlongs in :58, and he looked like he was merely galloping. He is something else! That Belmont race of his was as good a performance as I've ever seen. Cont.
@1948BigCy (The practice of using DRF variants to estimate track speed has long been under scrutiny by those who are in the business of estimating the abilities of Thoroughbreds. Critics have known that they are strongly influenced by class ability, and less by the speed of the tracks. It is difficult to tell whether the movement of a variant is due to track speed or class speed.) Cont.
@1948BigCy These errors had the effect of inflating the track variant towards a faster rating which over the years has fueled criticism of Secretariat's performance. End of quote
@1948BigCy You need to dig a little deeper for the true facts for both horses. Believe me I have with both of these great horses. I would love to find some solid facts that Cy was not 100% when he ran against Noor. One example is Easy Goer Gotham race. The variant was listed that day the track was running a 13 variant But searching a little deeper I found out the track was 'Extraordinary' fast that day And even his trainer doubted the 1:32 2/5 time because the track was so fast.
@rscarbro100 Once more, Noor was a world class horse...no other horse on the west coast could beat him...Cy and Noor left all the others way behind...whether or not Cy was 100%, he lost a full year and gained weight...even Nack admits that at 5 he was a very good horse, but at 3 he was "non pareil"...big difference...Cy has nothing to be ashamed about...at equal weights, he probably would have beaten Noor and would have been retired at 5, having made his million...but it was not to be...
@1948BigCy Eddie would be riding Citation yet his 'Bets' would be on Secretariat. He knew who was better because he said so And BTW it was not ballroom talk when he talked to Christine. Noor won 7 out of 12 races in 1950. 4 of them wins was against Citation and won only 5 major races in 1950. And you say no other horse on the west coast could beat him? Your totally insane. Who are the 5 horses that beat Noor in 1950? Cy was a very good horse at 5 & was at 3 'non parell' racing against 'What'?
@rscarbro100 Phil asked about that fantasy race, and Eddie told him how he'd ride Cy and beat Sec "by a short neck"...Well, I was talking about the 4 races that Noor and Cy ran together...3 at Santa Anita, where you know the best horses were, and then one up north...I don't know the details of the other races...who did Cy beat at 3? The best horses from the West, Midwest, and East...all who would face him...
@1948BigCy So in other words Arcaro thought Citation was better but was playing games in a ballroom with Christine. If Georgeff ever said this it was a made-up lie & you know it. Why in the world a man would say that But still many times said Secretariat was the best he ever seen? You & Georgeff are talking through your ass & your heads knows better. Anyone can see how desperate your are. Those horses whether they were from any direction or from the moon they were still horses of no substance.
@1948BigCy Phil George was full of lies. Did you ever watch the video of the interview Eddy had with Mike Wallace in 1957? Watch it. Mike asked Eddy twice was he ever asked to throw a race. He flatly said 'NO' .So that hogwash Phil Georgeff saying they let Saggy win that race is a total lie. Keep reading your so called 'Gospel about Cittion from that hyrocite Georgeff. I will believe Eddy any day.
@rscarbro100 Yes, I've seen the video on youtube. Whoever said that that Arcaro threw that 6f sprint at Havre de Grace? Not Phil. Not Eddie. It was interference pure and simple. Hefty tired in the awful mud and drifted towards the outside rail, with Eddie on his right. Eddie called it a mistake being outside of two horses and never blamed Cy for the loss. After all, it was his first ride on Cy after Snider's disappearance. He didn't lose another for the rest of the season.
@1948BigCy Eddy also said he rode to win. And said if he won he would take 10% of the purse. If the race paid the winner 40 grand for the race he would take 4 grand. If he came in second he got peanuts.Now you tell me if Eddy throwed that race with Saggy.
@1948BigCy . I saw Citation win the Jockey Club Gold Cup and I thought that was an outstanding performance. Native Dancer was great in winning the Metropolitan Handicap with that incredible stretch run of his. But that horse of (Lucien) Laurin's is unbelievable.End of quote. Even the great Joe Hirsch knew Secretariat performances fragmented Citation best performance without working up a lather.
@1948BigCy By Teddy Cox May 29th 1973. Secretariat ran a early morning workout with Ron turcotte aboard.carrying 130 lbs. Ran the mile in 1:35 2/5. He was 'Jogged' around the track the wrong way around. He was 'Eased' another panel in a time of 1:48 flat. Thats a 1 1/5 second faster than Man 0' War runing the Dwyer in which he was 'Hard Ridden; in a time of 1:49 1/5. Eddie Arcaro said he was the fastest horse I ever seen and he seen them all since Phar Lap. Don't tell me CY could beat him.
@rscarbro100 I won't say Cy could beat him...nobody knows...on any given day, any horse can beat any other horse...that's what makes horseracing...its consistency that counts...that's why times are an inaccurate way of judging a horse's worth...any horseman knows that...it's class that counts, the ability to win on all kinds of tracks, in all kinds of conditions, whether 100% or not, no matter who you are running against...
@1948BigCy I agrre with you 100%. Cy & Secretariat could win on all kinds of tracks, in all kind of conditions But winning whether your not 100% fit all depends just how bad there condition is. You say Cy was not 100% when Noor beat him & others. Yet you calim Secretariat should had won when he was not 100%. Can't have it both ways. I believe without a doubt Cy was beaten by less class horses because he was not 100%. There is no proof at all he was not 100% when Noor beat him. Absolutely none.
@1948BigCy None seen Citation with such 'Explosive' moves like Secretariat did having the experts in disbelief shaking thier heads. None did it like Secretariat did. Cy beat up on old horses of no substance, won 15 straight against nothing & you want to call him the best of all time. The experts knew better. Now your claiming he was running on 3 legs as a 3 yr. old. Take it from Eddie. He knew who was the best. You haven't got one leg to stand on.
@1948BigCy To tell the truth of the matter there is no more need to debate which horse is better. I believe Eddie Arcaro settled that argument when he proclaim without a doubt Secretariat was the better. How can anyone argue with that I never know in my lifetime.
@rscarbro100 In 1948, in addition to being Horse of the Year, best 3yo colt, best 3 yo, Cy was voted the Best Handicap horse...something no other 3 yo has done. BTW, he also beat Conniver, who in 1948, was voted the best Handicap mare or filly in the 2 miles Jockey Club..He also beat Mrs. Grillo, who still holds the world's record at 2.5 miles...want more?
@1948BigCy Here is the true record for Citation not make-up lies & dreams of yours. 1. 1948 T.C. champion. 2. 1948 u.s. champion 3 yr. old colt And #3 u.s. horse of the year. Thats all in 1948. Where in this world you get 1948 he was voted the best handicap horse the world we will never know. You must had them deams last night again. Took him 4 yrs. of racing to win 14 major races. It took the one & only Secretariat 2 yr.s of racing to win 14 major races. Cont.
@rscarbro100 Look it up...Cy was voted Handicap Horse of the Year in 1948...Coaltown was voted Best Sprinter, even tho Cy beat him easily both times they met in '48...Coaltown ran more short races that's why he was #1 sprinter, I guess....
Citation was a great horse and there is no doubt about it. Man O' War was also a great horse. But the one horse that you must admit stood out with all three was Secretariet. If all three horses could have ran the Triple Crown at the same time in their prime you would have to give at least two races to Secretariet. The greatest horse ever is Big Red. PERIOD!!!! End of Conversation
I know this will sound very ignorant of me, but I just half to know. Most Big Ciy supporters make a case ageist Man o' war by saying "Who did he ever beat?" Well just for sake of argument and out of curiosity(and I mean no offense to the Big Ciy fans) , who did Citation ever beat?
@HarbingerOfBattle It does not sound ignorant my good man. Honestly I say this will all due respect to CY. The simple truth of the matter is CY never ran against great competition. Thats no fault of his own. Armed & Coaltown were the only two horses of substance But Coaltown was not that good when CY beat him nor was Armed. Armed was washed up by 1948 & never won a major race after 1947.
@rscarbro100 Remember, the great sportswriter Charles Hatton wrote that the track nowadays are perhaps 1 second faster, not much at all in a article he wrote June 11, 1973. So don't let them MOW or other fans give you the BS about those slow tracks back then. It is a total lie.They want you to think those poor horses back in the heydays were at a big disadvantage trying to paint a picture they could have beaten Secretariat in the Belmont or other great races he had.
@HarbingerOfBattle CY fans are right as well. Man 0' War did not beat anyone either. I say CY competition was much better than MOW's. Sir Barton was washed up by the time MOW ran against him from a quote by the late great trainer Holly Hudges.Read 'MOW in the Dwyer'. N.Y. times gives the accounts of that race in which John P, Grier gave MOW the race of his life. Near the end they were neck to neck & with 2 cracks of the whip near the end MOW pulled away & won by 1 1/2 lengths. Time 1:49 1/8.
@rscarbro100 Ah, but let's not forget Man O' War's time in the Jockey Club Stakes, a race that actually WAS 1and 1/2 miles. He won the race in 2:28 4/5 under heavy restraint in the first mile and finished under a strong pull.
@rscarbro100 You're such a douche. I love seeing that out of 700 comments 500 must be yours. MOW tripped at the beginning of the Dwyer and still won setting a TR/AR/WR. MOW trashed Grier under restraint two other times and you know it.
"Citation is the only horse I ever saw make 3 runs in a Derby. Arcaro rode him like he was driving a Cadillac...push on the gas, let up, push on the gas, let up...and on that final push, that was it...he ran by Coaltown like Coaltown broke his leg!!"
1948BigCy 4 days ago
we certainly have been fortunate to have such grand athletes in our thoroughbreds....today we have so many horses running from the starting gates it takes away from the possiblity or showing just what a horse can do.
Letswinjeff1 1 week ago 3
in my opinion, and some facts... one of the best horses were
Man O War,Secretariat,Seabiscuit,Ruffian,Citation,Phar Lap and Sham
dickran2142battle 2 weeks ago
Very hard to make an argument against this horse being the best 3yo ever and possibly best horse. He beat champion older horses in the first part of the year something none of the others did as far as I know. Very nice video, thanks for sharing.
Icyhotboo 3 weeks ago
@Icyhotboo Yes...There were lots of great horses, but not one did what he did at three..won 19 for 20 (an interferance 6f loss), beat older horses 7 times, an easy TC, raced in 7 states, 10 tracks, every distance, hard, wet, didn't matter to him...ran the Pimlico Special solo, no owner would challenge him...if he hadn't been hurt at Tanforan and raced at Santa Anita, would probably be hailed at the greatest American horse...first horse to win a million more important to W. Wright..
1948BigCy 1 week ago
@1948BigCy Not to mention he was injured his 4yo season and did not race. When they brought him back as a 5yo he was virtually lame but as you pointed out his owner wanted to have the first million dollar horse. At the end of his 3yo season his record stood at 29/27-2-0 and one of those losses was to his stabemate because the jockeys were given orders that whoever was first in the stretch was not to be passed as they wanted a 1-2 finish the other to "saggy" on an off track he beat in a rematch
Icyhotboo 1 week ago
@Icyhotboo Yeah, people don't realize how tough it is to keep a horse from racing for a year, then bring him back, esp. a horse like Cy...but he broke a record, and was beaten by Noor, who carried 22 pounds less at one point...and Cy barely loss...2 wins, 5 seconds, not bad...and Noor had to break American/World records to beat him...people don't know that...San Capistrano photo finish that Cy lost...greatest race ever by those who saw it...no other horse like him...
1948BigCy 1 week ago
secretariat owns the records but citation was the best in my opinion.times only count in prison.he ran all the races and beat all the competition.man o war is still the greatest of all time with citation a close second and count fleet/secretariat in third respectfully.native dancer could easily be in third.if these horses were actors,then man o war is john wayne,citation is stallone and secretariat is arnold.my opinion only.i got kelso right up there too
sampson1959 4 months ago 7
@eckythimble Horses born later, have an age disadvantage. So, rule of thumb was always that horses be born between march and may. Now, this is important because that means that mating or breeding season is set for foals te be born in that period. So you are very likely to see a lot of horse born in the sign of aries.
A champion horse needs all the right components including good bloodlines, and good care and training, and most of all conformation.
Vrahos 5 months ago
@Vrahos Thanks for your interesting explanation, very informative. I just read it now. March to May period does cover both Aries and Taurus however. So in a race of the star signs, the only top 40 horse who is a proven Taurus - Forego - would have a rather tough time matching it against the Aries' represented by: Sec, MOW, Cy, Kelso, ND, Cigar, Bold Ruler, Easy Goer, Round Table, Count Fleet, Alydar, Whirlaway, Skip Away, Gallant Fox, Ruffian & Assault.
eckythimble 3 months ago
...which is perhaps not surprising as Taureans - whether horse, human or even cat or dog - are known to focus on comfort, calmness and patience, whereas Arians are known for being more temperamental with a near obsessive need to prove themselves to themselves, especially in indivualistic contests such as "racing" of any kind. Even Forego's sprinting style bears this out. He wound up very gradually down the home stretch as other horses faded, rather than blitzing them with acceleration ala Sec.
eckythimble 3 months ago
@eckythimble Yes, but look at more clues, because obviously there are different aspects among horses born in Aries. Being born in Aries alone does not do it.
You will see that the greats have another thing in common (aspects). They need to be competitive, but also motivated and energized. Their vocation needs to fit for running.
If you look, you will see what I mean...
Vrahos 3 months ago
@Vrahos Ok, I see Mars trine Pluto gives a lot of will-power, Moon in Capricorn trine Saturn a double ability to discipline emotions for the sake of a goal. Sun trine Neptune would give an intuitive ability to know when to act. Sun in the 4th house, I guess is someone motivated to perform for their "family". Did I miss any?
eckythimble 3 months ago
@eckythimble Look at the vocational chart of Secreteriat. It has almost all you should know.
Vrahos 3 months ago
@eckythimble You are right. I did the same research and have the same conclusion. There are however exceptions and there is a reasonable explenation. Being from Holland you need to look up the great Henry Buitenzorg, best horse there and born on jan 1st. generally speaking horses born before spring need to stay indoors longer, and don't develop as good as when they go outdoors immediately.
Vrahos 5 months ago
Big Cy was a great horse in his time just like MOW. But at 2:28 1/5 at the Belmont compared to Secretariets 2:24 is beyond anyones comprehension. The greatest Triple Crown winner is Secretariet. Hands down and no ands ifs buts about it. Eddie Arcaro mentioned that Citation was the best he had ever ridden but he was careful about his words because he also mentioned that Secretariet is the best he had ever seen. RIP Big Cy
stephen39217 5 months ago
@stephen39217 I really don't want to get into this again becuz I'll never change your mind...BTW, RIP Sect. He's dead too. Your apparently know nothing about racing...At 3, 19 for 20, beats older horses 7/7, two in Feb., beats them with only three days rest, runs a race btwn the Preakness and Belmont...Sect was a great horse, but no horse did what Big Cy did at 3...certainly not Sect...One fast race does not make a horse the greatest...
1948BigCy 5 months ago
@1948BigCy It is really apparent that you have diminished reading or seeing skills. I did not mention anywhere that Citation was not a great horse. Plus I only mentioned that when it comes to the Triple Crown the records stand for Secretariet. The numers speak for themself at all three races. I know exact;y what Cy did in his career and certainly should be mentioned as one of the greatest horses. Read the entire statement instead of taking words out of context you idiot.
stephen39217 5 months ago
@stephen39217 Sect ran the fastest TC. Fact. On really fast tracks. Cy had two sloppy ones. He was under wraps, as one can see, at the finish of the Belmont. It is relative time that counts, not absolute.
Now please...if you wish to discuss Sect, go to a Sect site...not here...
1948BigCy 5 months ago
...at university, I can assure you this is a clear, statistically significant result. Also notable, the first documented horse born in late April appears at just #48, Personal Ensign. As for science, it was originally developed as a method of testing hypotheses as opposed to the blind judgment and is usually based on statistical evidence. I have just shown you statistical evidence which disproves the hypothesis that birth date is irrelevant for greatness rankings amongst American racehorses.
eckythimble 6 months ago
@eckythimble A pox on you! I can't this out of my head! Is Sept/Oct south of the equator Aires too?
Gestation for a mare is 340 days, 11.3 months on average. While means breeding time is also in the springtime...but why would owners want their horses to be born as close to Jan 1 as possible? It would seem to given them an advantage...is there a rule?...on average, fillies take less time in utero than colts do...
1948BigCy 6 months ago
@1948BigCy Ok, at risk of repeating myself I’ll make my final post on this subject: Aries is the period of 21 Mar-19 Apr on both sides of the equator. 30 observations are generally regarded as being the minimum required to support hypothesis testing. Since we're testing USA horses born between Feb and May I'll have to exclude Phar Lap and add 9 more horses to reach a sample of 30. Having done that with the available data I found 4 of the next best 9 are again Aries. Now we have 18 out of the
eckythimble 6 months ago
top 30 American horses (60%) for which exact birthdates are known being Aries, born in a period which covers 22% of the full range of birthdates. 2. Statistics does not actually progress science by proving hypotheses correct, but by providing evidence to prove hypotheses incorrect. 3. Correlation exists when there is co-movement of data but no hypothesis, causation when there is a hypothesis and I have already presented mine. In astrology, birthdate is said to strongly influence character.
eckythimble 6 months ago
What it all means is that compared to Aquarius, Pisces, Taurus and Gemini horses: 1. There have been far more Aries champions. 2. The Aries horses are those whose character generally leaves the strongest impression in the memory as there as something unconventional/tempestuous about almost every Aries creature. Be it Ruffian refusing anyway past at the front, Zenyatta attacking from way behind, Whirlaway riding the outside rail, MOW being impossible to handle off the track, Cit kicking people,
eckythimble 6 months ago
@eckythimble That's ridiculous. First, there are many horse of whom we don't know their exact birthdate. 2. Champions is a personal definition. 3. Sotemia, Kincsem, other great horses of the past aren't even considered. 3. Range is deceptive: Cy has larger average winning margins at 3 except that Sec's Belmont thrown a money wrench in the average. 4. Your statistics have nothing to do with science; astrology is not even pseudo-science, but superstition...cont.
1948BigCy 6 months ago
@1948BigCy Tell me the birthdates of Sotemia, Kincsem and we can talk again. My model is in fact predictive. If you do an interpolated forecast and ask yourself at the end of each decade since the 1920s, who the greatest horse of the decade was, in the vast majority of cases the answer is an Aries. 20’s – MOW, 30’s – War Admiral (“fiery temperament” says Wikipedia = Aries the fire sign says astrology), 40’s – Cy, 50’s – Native Dancer, 60’s Kelso, 70’s Sec, 90’s – Cigar, 00’s – Zenyatta.
eckythimble 6 months ago
@eckythimble Kincsem was a Hungarian mare in the 1870's; started 53 times and never lost. Sotemia, another mare, in 1910, ran 4 miles and holds the world record. The both must be Aries, right? Astrology always has an out...in fact, as I said, many of the horses you name are not the same, which is why astrology is a simplistic, foolish...Cy was not like Whirly who was not like Sec who was MOW...if you knew anything about racing you would know that...
1948BigCy 6 months ago
@1948BigCy E.g. MOW – Mars in Aries, means he’ll want the lead and fight like a maniac to keep it, Cit – Mars in Pisces means intuitively aware of others around him but may become “psyched out” and despondent if the opposition gets one or two over him, e.g. Noor. Sec Mars in Taurus = means physically slow to start, but then gradually starts to move like an “incredible machine”. The main point is that Aries horses enjoy winning more than other horses, will need less whipping, etc. That's it.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble Nonsense. First of all, the descriptions are not true, and second, even if they were, you have no way of proving that the constellations and planets have anything to do with it. Cy wasn't "psyched out". Out of service for a year, he was lugging a lot more weight than Noor, who had to set records to barely beat him. Sec...slow to start in the Belmont? His most famous race? Your last sentence is factually unsubstantiated, esp. the whipping part. Absolute nonsense.
1948BigCy 5 months ago
@eckythimble Did you ever hear of "rating"? Not letting the horse run full out so he won't tire himself...The Count was said to rate himself..Others need jockeys to rate them...Sec was whipped plenty of times in the Derby...Cy in the Stars/Stripes...jockeys know when they need it not to lose, since winning is the name of the game...Sec lost the lead twice in 1973...But I'm sure you'll find artificial explanations in the stars, instead of "real" reasons in reality...
1948BigCy 5 months ago
Many of the things that make life worth living have no physical scientific basis – try “adoration of long dead horses” for one – by your own reasoning, shame on you also for engaging in that. There are plenty of metaphysical forces lurking underneath the thin varnish of physical phenomena that are beyond the access of our physical senses. And the astral bodies of the planets are merely one of these. Newton postulated that every object in the universe exerts a force on every other object,
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble You should publish a DRF for Space Cadets...with a Ram on the cover...
Aside from the astrology, you statistics are skewed and don't prove anything, except what you want them to prove. No random sampling, too small a sample, and in your case, the nail in the coffin, no consideration of other variables, and a total distortion of the facts as you present them. A stat is a stat is a stat...and turns deadly when mixed with metas...but it still isn't truth...
1948BigCy 5 months ago
@1948BigCy In that case you should publish the "Ignorance-Is-Bliss Guide to Statistics". You ignore the objective evidence which - despite your ill-founded and repetitive pleas - actually DOES meet all modern accepted scientific criteria, due to an unscientific emotional attachment to childhood views which automatically exclude all other alternatives, "a priori". Because you don't "like" the theory you refuse to let yourself even look at the bare facts. In science, "like" counts for nothing.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble WHAT THEORY? Based on astrology, recognized as nonsense by any knowledgeable person? Your knowledge of horses is miserable, and used to fit YOUR a priori concept of what the Aries horses are like.
77% of the horses, at least, are born in March-April; we don't know for many, and right there that makes the statistics questionable at best.
1948BigCy 5 months ago
@eckythimble In science, facts are useless unless they explain something. If your numbers are true, what do they explain? That if my foal is born an Aries, he is more likely to be a champ? The strength of science is that it is predictive. There have been more Aries winners because their are far more horses born in the springtime, Mar/Arp, for good reasons, especially in the last 50 years. Cy didn't kick...maybe Warren Wright...he deserved it...
1948BigCy 6 months ago
Count Fleet showing off with humiliating victory margins, Sec improvising new tactics as he went, etc. Even if the statistics one day shift away from supporting #1, #2 will always remain. South of the equator, there were also some champion horses but very, very few with the similar tempestuous characters as you have been saturated with in America due to the horses born under the zodiac sign of Aries.
eckythimble 6 months ago
@eckythimble See, here is where you are wrong. Cy and The Count were Aries, but had completely different temperaments, trainers, jockeys, and owners. It is big money that has destroyed horse racing. Has nothing to do with the zodiac. Shorter distances, horses raced lightly then off to stud. I'll predict right here, Affirmed is the last TC winner. The best we can hope for is 2 races. But astrology, as you have proved, explains nothing.
1948BigCy 6 months ago
@1948BigCy ONLY exception is 80’s horse - John Henry, who is incidentally also the LOWEST ranked of all the above horses. Therefore I confidently predict the next horse of the decade will ALSO be an Aries, just as all the above horses were and just as 7 of the 9 known TC winners whose birthdate was known, including Gallant Fox, Omaha, Whirlaway, Count Fleet, Assault. The better the horse, the less jockeys and trainers, matter, it’s the will-to-win character which counts more.
eckythimble 6 months ago
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1948BigCy 6 months ago
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@1948BigCy Let’s add Sham, to the above list – another Aries horse and one with the second fastest Derby (officially) and Preakness (unofficially) times of the above lot and suffered the same fate most of them would have had trying to go toe to toe with Sec in the Belmont. >> Who would be your 1-2-3 over 1.5 miles on dirt or grass anywhere in the world?
eckythimble 6 months ago
First the Blood Horse guide lends some objectivity to the definition "champion horses". There's no point mentioning Kincsem or Sotemia if you don't know their birth data, otherwise the hypothesis can't be tested either way. Anyway if you don't "believe" the hypothesis can be true in spite of the data, then even if these horses were both Aries you still wouldn't be satisfied! The champion Aries horses to me have many similarities, other planet placements reveal the differences.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble I have already pointed out that the top twenty were NOT temperamentally the same. That the vast majority are born in Mar/Apr for a real reason. You deny that trainers and jockeys make a BIG difference. Ben Jones made Whirly the winner he was.
Astrology has no scientific basis...shame on you. I'm not an owner or trainer. You should talk to some of them and express your ideas...maybe they would understand you and agree...I sure as heck don't!
1948BigCy 5 months ago
if there is a metaphysical universe then it’s not a stretch to postulate that similar laws apply there. What can be observed is that these same astral bodies ensure that babies born under the Taurus Sun are extremely slow to change their opinion on anything ranging from their favorite beer or pizza… or horse… to their working philosophy, no matter what the evidence. So using this valuable information I’ll now call it quits on this subject. I’ve got other projects to attend to. Adios!
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble Darn right I ask for evidendce b4 I'll change my mind...beer? matter of taste, not evidence...you reveal the shallowness of your thinking...using statistics to prove an astrological claim is like mixing oil and water...like trying to prove creationism by using the known fossil record...at best, laughable...
I hope your "other" projects are more legitimate and valid, because this was simple-minded and uninformative...you must be a Taurus...Ciao!
1948BigCy 5 months ago
@1948BigCy My knowledge is very much "a posteriori", having tested literally hundreds if not thousands of people and later animals, on the relation between their characters and their natal horoscope. Oh, and now I can add one more case to my database of evidence as another youtuber has commented on you that you won't change your mind "until the cows come home", the classic character trait of the patient yet stubborn Taurean!
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble REALL? I TOLD you I was a Taurus...would you have known without my telling you? And on our short little comments here you can add me to your database of "hits"...well researched! My brother is also a Taurus, April 30...but guess what? We are very different characters...better not interview him...I suppose you read pro-Secretariat folks who tried to convince me that his 9 for 12 is better than 19 for 20 (Cy). That's common sense, no stubborness....
1948BigCy 5 months ago
@1948BigCy P.s. by continually lumping up all the days in Mar-Apr together without disecting them as needed to test the hypothesis, you reveal your scatter-gun approach to science. As any scientist knows, detailed analysis without details leads to nothing. Either you don't have much Virgo in your natal horoscope, or else you're not using it.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble Well, I don't know about the Virgo, but I'm hooked...where are most of the horse ranches? Kentucky is by far the most, with CA second. You see, the states with cold winters are likely to have their foals born in Mar/Apr, while CA, FLA, where winters are warm are likely to have their foals born earlier.. I am not testing any hypotheses as you are...I am just looking for a scientific, rational reason for the results..."The fault dear Brutus is not in our stars"...
1948BigCy 5 months ago
@1948BigCy Classic feedback, if there's one thing Taureans are even more famous for than stubborness, it's their "common sense" - to use your own description.
Your brother will have other placements of moon, ceres, etc. But I bet he respects "common sense" similarly as you do. Try speaking to an Aquarian they don't care for this virtue at all.
Another Taurean trait: good in dealing with money: it's why they generally make good buyers/budgeters/bankers... they have the famous 'nose for value'.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@1948BigCy I also note the greatest Taurean horse Forego does not have the dazzling accleration of a Sec, Big Cy, Zenyatta, he tended to doggedly grind it out down the straight. No overtaking the whole field in the first bend, settling down then sprinting again at the end for him. Taureans are not known for quick changes in speed, everything goes gradually with them as they don't like to be hurried into sudden changes by anyone - ceteris paribus.
eckythimble 5 months ago
@eckythimble Forego, a gelding, carried huge loads that Sec didn't and Cy did, and Zeny of course didn't. I don't think it is a fair comparison, certainly a poor way to make your point which is what? So far all I've heard is "Yeah, well if you are different then your moorns, planets, etc., must have been in different places",
By the way, my brother is good with money, but I am not (that's why I shop at the 99 cent stores and Wal-Mart). Gotta check my star/planet chart, damn
1948BigCy 5 months ago
@1948BigCy Well I don't recall Forego showing dazzling acceleration at 3yrs carrying less weights, correct me if I'm wrong. As for money I meant spending it, not earning it. If you know exactly which article is cheapest in which shop, then you're a Taurean. I have a 5x Taurean friend whom I always ask before making a big purchase or service contract, he's saved me heaps. Cancers are usually best at earning, they avoid all responsibility via emotional tactics (cry) yet take home the most pay.
eckythimble 4 months ago
... "yet take home the most pay (cry even harder), it's beautifully simple." Point is you're born with a set of planet placements which deeply determine your character by programming the astral energy vortexes in your spine at birth. Daily choices are always your own discretion of course. Then you live and only to the extent that you learn anything via the consequences of your choices, do these energy vortexes slowly start to change and your character strengthens. It's the school called life.
eckythimble 4 months ago
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eckythimble 6 months ago
Ooops... one more: Triple Crown winner Affirmed, described by her jockey Laffit Pincay here on youtube as a "kind", responsive horse who immediately sensed what you wanted him to do. Which is very similar to what the Babylonians knew the sun in Pisces character to be all those centuries ago and quite different again to either Aries, Libra or Leo.
eckythimble 6 months ago
@eckythimble I place astrology beside spiritualism and other non-scientific nonsense...if the great majority of ALL horses are born in Mar/Apr, why is it surprising that a majority of the great ones are born at that time? Sorry, but I can't see your point...what about the exceptions, like Swaps?
1948BigCy 6 months ago
@1948BigCy What's not to understand? Of the 61 days in Mar/Apr I am actually referring to just 29 days, less than half (47.5%) of Mar/Apr. There were champions born from 15 Feb (Seattle Slew) to 27 May (Northern Dancer) a range of 132 days. The 21 Mar-19 Apr zone covers just 22% of this range, yet within it fall 14 from 22 (63.6%) of the top all time 35 horses for which the birth dates are known (exc. Aries: Sham and Zen), inc. the top 5 straight. Having taught statistics... (cont)
eckythimble 6 months ago
@eckythimble To be fair, I flunked statistics in college. I'm a believer in "anyone can quote a statistic to prove anything." And when you add horoscopes/astrology, well...It seems that your sample is not large enough to be significant...is your result causative or simply a coincidence? Are you saying your finding is "scientific"...that it can be tested? You also have to rule out every other possible causative factor before claiming your theory correct..that's science
1948BigCy 6 months ago
@eckythimble I don't see what the range has to do with it. The vast majority of horses, esp today, are born in Apr/May today\, in spite of the fact that they are considered 1 year old whenever they are born. That is because of several factors having to do with breeding. That 63.2% of the top horses are born in less than half the months of Mar/Apri, might be meaningful to a statistician/astrologer, but what that meaning is escapes my plaintive brain...
1948BigCy 6 months ago
MOW refusing to lose at all except for once case of jockey error; Kelso carrying several big weights to victory in handicap races; Cy and Cigar each winning 16 races in a row; Zenyatta wining 19 dramatic races in a row starting from last position. Incidentally I would be curious to know the precise birthdate of #6 horse Dr Fager who from a distance seemed to have a double dose of the “headstrong” characteristic.
eckythimble 6 months ago
- Examples: Sec going to the limits at Belmont without one whip even when there was no one left to beat; Sham trying to match Sec’s normally suicidal pace in each triple crown race until he physically succumbed half-way through the last one; Sec inventing a last-to-first technique at the first bend of the Preakness just to see if he could; Ruffian continuing to run on a smashed hoof in her tragic last race; Alydar going stride for stride on the outside bend with Affirmed at the Belmont; (cont)
eckythimble 6 months ago
are prepared to push themselves over their normal limits for the glory of victory, enjoy showing off their talents to an audience… and once told where the goal-post (figuratively and literally) is generally do not need to be whipped too much to get there as they want to win for themselves anyway. (cont)
eckythimble 6 months ago
Don't say I didn't warn you it was from left field... They were all born in a narrow 29 day range from March 21 – April 19, corresponding to the zodiac period of Aries. Since the time of the Babylonians this period of the year has been characterized by living beings who: psychologically detest losing, never ever give up, are highly creative, headstrong and usually insist on doing things their own way against conventional wisdom, (cont)
eckythimble 6 months ago
@eckythimble Left field??? This is out of the park!! Astrology? Ares? What about the horses born in that time period who don't exhibit those characteristic? How about horses who DO exhibit these same characteristic but are not born under the Ares sign? Actually, I partly saw myself in that description and I am a Taurus!! But thanks...it was a nice change of pace!!!
1948BigCy 6 months ago
@1948BigCy - It may seem strange, but that doesn't mean it can't be true. Firstly I would say name one horse born in this period who has none of these traits. Secondly, horses outside of this period can have some of these traits to a "lesser extent" if they have Aries placed in a planet rather than the sun. A Taurean sun horse would generally be a steady, one-pace, endurance type. You can find your hidden Aries mercury/venus etc here: astro.com/cgi/genchart.cgi (also select ceres & eris).
eckythimble 6 months ago
@eckythimble Well, it is less strange when you realize that the great majority of ALL thoroghbreds are foaled in the months of March and April...that's a fact...springtime...at least north of the Equator...
South of the Equator, Argentina and Australia for example, most colts are foaled in October, September...autumn up here, but springtime down under...Phar Lap was born in October...
1948BigCy 6 months ago
@1948BigCy Actually I already realised that most northern hemisphere horses are born in the spring, although some are born in February like Seattle Slew and Spectacular Bid. That said, if you ran a regression of the number of horses born during late winter - spring versus the number of TOP horses, the results would be clearly statistically significant - the Aries have it by far over the neighbouring signs in the USA at least. (cont)
eckythimble 6 months ago
Funny you mentioned "Big Red" Phar Lap. An American 1932 newspaper article notes Americans were "disappointed with his amusing docility". Well of course, Phar Lap was a Libra, whose character is exactly opposite of the Aries champions they were accustomed to like MOW! So while Phar Lap shared the same nickname of MOW and Sec, he clearly did not share their firey temperament. One 'advantage' Libran horses do have is that they work much more cooperatively with their jockeys (Sec take note!)
eckythimble 6 months ago
Last horse I would like to mention today is 2010 WTRR World Champion Sprinter, Black Caviar who currently has 13 from 13 wins. She runs exactly as you would expect a Leo to, NEVER boxed in on the rails, NEVER straining around the outside, nor risking spectacular crowd-pleasing (Aries) tactics like Sec or Zenyatta. Instead she always commands a position front and centre, then parades down the centre of the straight to victory, easing up on the line, with the dignity that befits her character.
eckythimble 6 months ago
All of these arguments are about DIFFERENCES, so here's a little something from left field to liven up this debate a little.
What do the TOP FIVE Blood-Horse magazine horses of the 20th century: 1. MOW 2. Sec 3. Cy 4. Kelso 5. Fleet ... as well as 14 from 22 of the top 35 runners for which this FACT is known, including Ruffian, Native Dancer, Cigar, Alydar... PLUS a couple of extra handy horses not mentioned in the above list - Sham and Zenyatta - ALL HAVE IN COMMON?
eckythimble 6 months ago
@eckythimble That's a good one...I'll give you three guesses...
1948BigCy 6 months ago
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eckythimble 6 months ago
@eckythimble does it have to do with pedigree? they all have "Teddy"'s blood in them?
1948BigCy 6 months ago
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eckythimble 6 months ago
Tried to clean up some of the mess.
You are adults, act like it.
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1948BigCy 6 months ago
Did you know Citation used to kick people? Like, a lot. He also tripped to his knees at the Belmont when he came out of the gate. And he still won. Amazing horse!
cattamer101 6 months ago
That is one gorgeous horse. He was on cruise control for all three TC races. Thanks for posting.
evyn10014 7 months ago
@evyn10014 I'm reading about Sotemia, a 5yo mare, who on 10/7/1912 at Churchill Downs, ran 4 miles in 7:10.8, for a new world record that still stands. That averages out to ~1:45/mi.. It is said that jockey just galloped her in, winning by 11 lengths...and when Sotemia returned to her stall "she looked like she could run another couple of miles..."
Now that's when horses were horses (and mares were mares!)
1948BigCy 7 months ago
@1948BigCy That's pretty impressive, especially by today's fragile standards. There's some delusion going on around that there were no good horses before the golden age began in the 40's. That Man o War was the first "great" horse. There were many we don't even know about.
In fact I'd wager the "greatest, fastest horse of all time" is one we don't even know about, long before cameras and TV's and youtube...
evyn10014 7 months ago 5
@evyn10014 The same thought occurred to me: "How many horses that we never heard of were great or could have been?" I have a huge book that traces the history of horseracing in America since the 1700s. You known, when men wore starched collars and jackets and boaters on their heads even on hot, summer days..back before races were even timed...it was a whole different ball game back then...
1948BigCy 7 months ago
Anyone know what year it was that Arcaro was interviewed there when he was talking about the trainers and owners saying Citation was the greatest three year old ever? Interesting.
evyn10014 7 months ago
@evyn10014 Back in 1948, Max Hirsch said so and Bill Finnegan...both saw MoW run...several French trainers who saw Cy run in the Jockey Gold on 3 days rest and beat older routers made similar comments..."Sunny" Jim Fitzsimmons...I mean, how many modern 3yo's win 19 for 20, with one bogus loss (Cy was pushed wide by a horse named Hefty and couldn't quite catch Saggy...nobody took the loss seriously...like MoW's loss to Upset...
1948BigCy 7 months ago
Sunny Jim Fitzsimmons after Cy beat older champs in his first two races as a 3 year old..."Citation's done more than any horse I ever saw...and I saw Man o' War.". Other prominent trainers, foreign and domestic, said the same thing...so if Cy is in their estimation better than MoW, who is BH's #1....hmmm
1948BigCy 7 months ago
@1948BigCy It looks to me in the interview with Arcaro that he was pretty old at the time and was clearly referring to Citation being superior to Secretariat as well. I don't know how people can argue this -- that Arcaro felt Citation was the best of all time.
evyn10014 6 months ago
@evyn10014 This interview was done for a ESPN series about TC winners in the 1990's. Eddie is interesting. First he says "Owners, I mean trainers" and people that knew...The best people to judge horses are jockeys and then trainers. Period. Eddie saw Sec't and called his Belmont for TV...he called it "exceptional" and Sec't the fastest he had ever seen...but he knew Cy, and by saying he was the greatest 3 yo who ever lived...we actually, he was being modest!!! He was great at 5, too!
1948BigCy 6 months ago
In the Derby clip, the arrow points to the wrong horse. Cy was off the rail, in the back. "Citation is the only horse I ever saw make 3 runs in a Derby. Arcaro rode him just like he was driving a Cadillac...just push on the gas, let up...and on that final push, he ran by Coaltown like he broke his leg!"--Herb Stevens, trainer. "He tends to loaf when he runs out of horses to beat, so I gave him a few smacks just to keep his mind on the race."--Eddie Arcaro
JohnnyElsewhereTV 8 months ago
@1948BigCy Kent Hollingsworth editor for Bloodhorse said the same thing that he won the Belmont without working up a lather like just Heywood Broun said as well right after the race. You gotta be kidding yourself if you think for the slightest moment Citation could have beaten Secretariat on Belmont day or any other horse in history with such ease. It wouldn't even be close. He ran fractions in 'Mud' faster than he did his Belmont & that was only in a workout. Can you 'grasp' that my good man?
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 MGM, you can't seem to grasp the fact that such "fantasy races" are barroom talk, as Eddie used to say. But I would like to have seen a 5 race "world series" between Sec and Cy at different distances, on different tracks, different times between races, different track conditions...and even then, it would be impossible to say one or the other was "better"...Sec may very well have won the series; my bets would be on Cy, tho...
1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy The old belt no longer fitted his large belly. They couln not buckle it. With all due respect to Citation I have absolutely find no evidence where any expert or anyone talking about Citation wining the Belmont with such ease, Especially not like all the talk how Secretariat won his without working up a lather. Even the great Red Smith stated if asked by Turcotte Secretariat could have broken the World Record set by Fiddle Isle on grass in 2:23 flat in 1970 at Santa Anita.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy It wasn't May 29th but March 29th when he had this workout. My mistake. He was one day from his 3rd birthday. A 2 yr. old running faster than Man 0' War could in a workout carrying 130 lbs. Man 0' War was 3 yrs of age carring 118 lbs when he won his Withers one mile in 1:35 4/5. Secretariat was just 'Jogging' And with that 'Pulling Up' another panel in 1:48 flat broke Man 0' War Dwyer record where he was ridden hard by 1 1/5 seconds. Secretariat ran with his 'Ear Pricking'.(smile)
rscarbro100 10 months ago
A lot of noise has been made about Secretariat's 5 losses. Loss 1 he was impeded, loss 2 he was disqualified, loss 3 he had the abcess, loss 4 he was running a fever, loss 5 he was training for a turf race and was substituted for Riva Ridge. In each of these races the element of HUMAN error surfaces. Citation lost 10 races, twice as many as Secretariat and 4 of those were to Noor. As deserving as he was in 1948 of all the accolades he received he wasn't as good as Secretariat, or even Sham.
MelC54 10 months ago
@MelC54 Yeah Sec fans have a zillion excuses. Other horses win when not 100%. Sec couldn't. Cy sat out his entire 4th year with injuries, came back at 5, lost to Noor, who was seriously underweighted, who had to set world and track records to barely beat Cy who carried as much as 132. Cy did things at 3 that neither Sec nor Sham even approached. Fifteen straight races is a good place to start. Beat older horses in Chicago with a wrenched hip and sprained ankle. Dream on, Mel...
1948BigCy 10 months ago
@MelC54 Watch out for the imposter BigCy. You will find him over at Man 0' War Vs. Secretariat as a woman by the name of Phanatic24601. He thinks he knows all about Citation from Phil Georgeff bible Citation in a class by himself. He will never mention the opinion of the man that rode him the great Eddit Arcaro who in the last interivew he had before he died with LA Times Bill Christine where he said he rated Secretariat as the best he ever seen. BigCy is the one thats living in a 'Dream' world.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@MelC54 We have only 5 excuses for Secretariat loses But BigCy has 13. He said other horses win when not 100% And he contradicts his ownself claiming Citation had loses not being 100%. He forgets Big Red won all T.C. races in record time & the Derby & Belmont still stands, Set a world record in the M.C. race that still stands at Belmont Park & the Man 0' War race in record time. Not to mention the Gotham race. BigCy is so insane he believes Citation could have beaten Secretariat on Belmont day.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 I'm really tired of arguing with you, but for the edification of others...Cy's loss at 3 was a fluke; I'll give Sec one interference if you give Cy one interference at 3. That makes Cy 20 for 20 at 3. Untouchable...We really can't talk over the third year because Sec didn't run after 3. RsCarbo is like a baby newbie because all he sees is time...he doesn't know the first thing about horseracing...
1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy No one needs to make any apologies for Citation. He raced almost as much as a three year old as Sec did in practically his whole career. Citation was an iron horse. Compare him to Secretariat at 3... laugh out loud. No comparison. 19-20? Epic.
evyn10014 6 months ago 2
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1948BigCy 6 months ago
@MelC54 BigCy is so insane he will not even accept Eddie Arcaro words. Citation could beat up on older horses like Armed who was washed up by the time he raced Citation. Armed never won a major race in 1948 or 49. He forgets to mention that. He forgets mentioning Noor carried more weight whe he kicked his ass in a time of 1:58 1/5 to Citation 1:58 4/5. Cy time was one full second slower than Secretariat when he was 'Pulled Up' running another panel in 1:57 4/5 in the Marlboro Cup race.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 Cy beat 35 older horses, not just Armed, at 3, something no other horse has done...Noor only gave Cy weight, one pound, at his last race in 1950...other races Cy gave Noor much weight...Notice that Cy that Cy lost by only 3/5 of a sec in almost record time...and he was retired for the rest of the year cuz his ankle was sore...Walkover at Pimlico cuz no other horse dared face him...Sec was a beautiful, great steed...but to say he was the best cuz of a few races...horse feathers...
1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy What older horse of the ones he beat was the best BigCy & how good was he? How many of those 35 horses were 'Champion' horses?. Its kind of funny a johnnycomelatley like you claim you know more than Eddie Arcaro or even Phil Georgeff who was nothing but a track caller with a bullfrog voice who was know by all as a very 'Bias' person. Horse feathers I say BigCy, horse feathers.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
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1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy For someone to claim they know something about horse racing you haven't got the slightest clue of what a 'Champion' horse is. Holy Cow. Some examples. Horse of the year 2 or 3 yr. olds, T.C. champion, American champion, Handicap champion, sprint champion, etc. None of these horses you mention were not champions of anything. They were horses of no substance. I am sure they were well known in 1948 because that is about all they had. Cont.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 They held track and American and world records!!! SPEED!!! RECORDS!!! The only thing that matters to you! Even Saggy held a American/World record in a 4.5 furlong sprint as a junior. Cy equaled Armed's record in the Stars and Stripes, which he won despite having a wrenched flycatcher muscle (he was bothered by tendon problems his whole life) and a sprained ankle. Yeah, real champs can win even when not 100%...
1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy None of the older horses you mention was not a 'Champion' of anything. For someone to claim they know something about horse racing you do not have a clue what a champion is. T.C. champion, american champion, champion 2 or 3 year old or a handicap & sprint champion,etc. Armed was a champion but in 48 or 49 he never won a major race. Yes, these horses were well know in 1948 but only because that was the only thing they had at that time. A thing of no 'substance' & you know it.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy What world records did any of these older horses hold? None that I know of & if they did Citation did not break them at 3.Citation never broke a workd record at 3. Secretariat broke world records in his workout & did some 'Pulling Up' with the greatest of ease. Even in "MUD'. Arcaro knew ezactly what CY was capable of . He knew Citation could not carry Secretariat water bucket not even in his 'Workouts'. That is the simple truth of the matter.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
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1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy Cy could only win 2 major races as a 2 yr. old. Now here is the unbelivable record for Secretariat. 1973 horse of the year, 1973 male horse of the yr., 1973 T.C. champion And 4 american champion male turf horse. Now thats something no 3 yr, old ever done,Besides he was voted american horse of the year as a 2 yr. old colt the first to ever done that And amercian champion 2 yr, old colt, 6 champion titles to CY 4 titles not to mention Secretariat was the best broodmare sire in 1992.Cont
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy Not only that the greatest broke all T.C. records. Two stands today & the Preakness only tied. Had to world records & one still stands by 2 seconds. Cy at 5 did break the mile record on a super duper fast G.S. track in 1:33 3/5. A very young 3 yr, old colt by the name of Stop The Music in early spring of 1973 tied that record not having his ass whipped silly like CY did. The only thing racing was about CY was beating slow horses in 1948.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
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1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy Its a fact Belmont was a very fast track but the track slowed by some 4/5 of a second by Belmont day. Stop the Music ran that 1:33 3/5 a month before Belmont But a week before the Belmont he lost to Linda's Chief who won it in 1:34 4/5. Stop the Music was second in 1:35 & change. Secretariat Beyer speed figurtee was done by Beyer, Chrisr & Watchmaker. They used a .09 variant for his figure. They all knew the .05 was not correct for many reasons. Cont.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy Bill Nack in "The Making of a Champion" made a similar observation but rejoined stating that by race day the track had slowed. Reviewing 1974's American Racing Manual shows that beginning 4 weeks prior to the Belmont, as many as 4 main course records were set that covered distances from 5.5 to 8 furlongs. Three weeks before the race, stakes winner Stop-The-Music set the mile at 1:33 3/5s.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy . Two weeks later, he ran the one mile Withers and finished 3 lengths behind Linda's Chief's time of 1:34 4/5s, about seven to eight fifths slower than the record he set earlier. The track was fast but it was slowing. The day preceding the Belmont, a precocious two-year-old stakes winner Raise-A-Cup set the record for 5.5 furlongs. However, on Belmont day, though a final DRF course variant of 05 was recorded by day's end, it can be shown that the surface had in fact slowed.Cont.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy Sources show that the 2 dirt races preceding the Belmont Stakes recorded DRF speed ratings of 92 and 99 for one mile and one and one sixteenth miles respectively. The 99 was recorded by Forego in the 7th race that had him finish 9 lengths ahead of the rest of the field. The veteran sprinter Spanish Riddle in a stretch duel with 3 others recorded the 92. It must be noted that the DRF speed rating of 92 for Spanish Riddle's victory is in question. Cont.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy The mile track record that day was at 1:33 3/5 as had been set by Stop The Music the previous month. It seems that Spanish Riddle's rating had been derived not from that record but from the prior mark at 1:34 2/5s; or more accurately, his rating should have been an 88. The same error applies to the first mile contest that day that should have received a rating of 92 in place of the 96 the DRF assigned. Cont.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy Ruffian ran 5 panels in 57 flat. Thats not a guess but she done it. Secretariat ran a 56 4/5 in a workout. Laurin said he could ran it in 56 flat with blinkers. In a full out race for 5 panels he could have ran it in 54 & change. Secretariat was still growing after he started his 3 yr. old season. He was picking up weight between his Derby & Preakness race. They had to buy a new belt before the Preakness because his girth grew to 75". .
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy And boy were those horses slow in 1948 that ran their MAX. speed running their tongues out trying to beat CY. None could get close to a 1:35 mile nor CY could as well for that matter. None of his competition could run a 1:10 for 6 panels against him. But when old CY went against a speed horse like Noor the tables were turned. He met up with a buzzsaw that had speed . ?Thats right BigCy it was speed that horses are best defined by how fast they run not beating up on slow horses.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy From Joe Hirsch (June 28, 1973):
Even the pros are excited about Secretariat. "I was just at the rail here at Belmont, watching one of my colts breeze, when the Big Horse worked on by," Jimmy Conway enthused over the phone this morning. "I caught him in :23, :46 4/5, and the 5 furlongs in :58, and he looked like he was merely galloping. He is something else! That Belmont race of his was as good a performance as I've ever seen. Cont.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 Ben Jones about Bewitch: "She can run five furlongs in :58 anytime"...so what?
1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy (The practice of using DRF variants to estimate track speed has long been under scrutiny by those who are in the business of estimating the abilities of Thoroughbreds. Critics have known that they are strongly influenced by class ability, and less by the speed of the tracks. It is difficult to tell whether the movement of a variant is due to track speed or class speed.) Cont.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy These errors had the effect of inflating the track variant towards a faster rating which over the years has fueled criticism of Secretariat's performance. End of quote
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy You need to dig a little deeper for the true facts for both horses. Believe me I have with both of these great horses. I would love to find some solid facts that Cy was not 100% when he ran against Noor. One example is Easy Goer Gotham race. The variant was listed that day the track was running a 13 variant But searching a little deeper I found out the track was 'Extraordinary' fast that day And even his trainer doubted the 1:32 2/5 time because the track was so fast.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 Once more, Noor was a world class horse...no other horse on the west coast could beat him...Cy and Noor left all the others way behind...whether or not Cy was 100%, he lost a full year and gained weight...even Nack admits that at 5 he was a very good horse, but at 3 he was "non pareil"...big difference...Cy has nothing to be ashamed about...at equal weights, he probably would have beaten Noor and would have been retired at 5, having made his million...but it was not to be...
1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy Eddie would be riding Citation yet his 'Bets' would be on Secretariat. He knew who was better because he said so And BTW it was not ballroom talk when he talked to Christine. Noor won 7 out of 12 races in 1950. 4 of them wins was against Citation and won only 5 major races in 1950. And you say no other horse on the west coast could beat him? Your totally insane. Who are the 5 horses that beat Noor in 1950? Cy was a very good horse at 5 & was at 3 'non parell' racing against 'What'?
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 Phil asked about that fantasy race, and Eddie told him how he'd ride Cy and beat Sec "by a short neck"...Well, I was talking about the 4 races that Noor and Cy ran together...3 at Santa Anita, where you know the best horses were, and then one up north...I don't know the details of the other races...who did Cy beat at 3? The best horses from the West, Midwest, and East...all who would face him...
1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy So in other words Arcaro thought Citation was better but was playing games in a ballroom with Christine. If Georgeff ever said this it was a made-up lie & you know it. Why in the world a man would say that But still many times said Secretariat was the best he ever seen? You & Georgeff are talking through your ass & your heads knows better. Anyone can see how desperate your are. Those horses whether they were from any direction or from the moon they were still horses of no substance.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy Phil George was full of lies. Did you ever watch the video of the interview Eddy had with Mike Wallace in 1957? Watch it. Mike asked Eddy twice was he ever asked to throw a race. He flatly said 'NO' .So that hogwash Phil Georgeff saying they let Saggy win that race is a total lie. Keep reading your so called 'Gospel about Cittion from that hyrocite Georgeff. I will believe Eddy any day.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 Yes, I've seen the video on youtube. Whoever said that that Arcaro threw that 6f sprint at Havre de Grace? Not Phil. Not Eddie. It was interference pure and simple. Hefty tired in the awful mud and drifted towards the outside rail, with Eddie on his right. Eddie called it a mistake being outside of two horses and never blamed Cy for the loss. After all, it was his first ride on Cy after Snider's disappearance. He didn't lose another for the rest of the season.
1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy Eddy also said he rode to win. And said if he won he would take 10% of the purse. If the race paid the winner 40 grand for the race he would take 4 grand. If he came in second he got peanuts.Now you tell me if Eddy throwed that race with Saggy.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy . I saw Citation win the Jockey Club Gold Cup and I thought that was an outstanding performance. Native Dancer was great in winning the Metropolitan Handicap with that incredible stretch run of his. But that horse of (Lucien) Laurin's is unbelievable.End of quote. Even the great Joe Hirsch knew Secretariat performances fragmented Citation best performance without working up a lather.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy By Teddy Cox May 29th 1973. Secretariat ran a early morning workout with Ron turcotte aboard.carrying 130 lbs. Ran the mile in 1:35 2/5. He was 'Jogged' around the track the wrong way around. He was 'Eased' another panel in a time of 1:48 flat. Thats a 1 1/5 second faster than Man 0' War runing the Dwyer in which he was 'Hard Ridden; in a time of 1:49 1/5. Eddie Arcaro said he was the fastest horse I ever seen and he seen them all since Phar Lap. Don't tell me CY could beat him.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 I won't say Cy could beat him...nobody knows...on any given day, any horse can beat any other horse...that's what makes horseracing...its consistency that counts...that's why times are an inaccurate way of judging a horse's worth...any horseman knows that...it's class that counts, the ability to win on all kinds of tracks, in all kinds of conditions, whether 100% or not, no matter who you are running against...
1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy I agrre with you 100%. Cy & Secretariat could win on all kinds of tracks, in all kind of conditions But winning whether your not 100% fit all depends just how bad there condition is. You say Cy was not 100% when Noor beat him & others. Yet you calim Secretariat should had won when he was not 100%. Can't have it both ways. I believe without a doubt Cy was beaten by less class horses because he was not 100%. There is no proof at all he was not 100% when Noor beat him. Absolutely none.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy None seen Citation with such 'Explosive' moves like Secretariat did having the experts in disbelief shaking thier heads. None did it like Secretariat did. Cy beat up on old horses of no substance, won 15 straight against nothing & you want to call him the best of all time. The experts knew better. Now your claiming he was running on 3 legs as a 3 yr. old. Take it from Eddie. He knew who was the best. You haven't got one leg to stand on.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@1948BigCy To tell the truth of the matter there is no more need to debate which horse is better. I believe Eddie Arcaro settled that argument when he proclaim without a doubt Secretariat was the better. How can anyone argue with that I never know in my lifetime.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 In 1948, in addition to being Horse of the Year, best 3yo colt, best 3 yo, Cy was voted the Best Handicap horse...something no other 3 yo has done. BTW, he also beat Conniver, who in 1948, was voted the best Handicap mare or filly in the 2 miles Jockey Club..He also beat Mrs. Grillo, who still holds the world's record at 2.5 miles...want more?
1948BigCy 10 months ago
@1948BigCy Here is the true record for Citation not make-up lies & dreams of yours. 1. 1948 T.C. champion. 2. 1948 u.s. champion 3 yr. old colt And #3 u.s. horse of the year. Thats all in 1948. Where in this world you get 1948 he was voted the best handicap horse the world we will never know. You must had them deams last night again. Took him 4 yrs. of racing to win 14 major races. It took the one & only Secretariat 2 yr.s of racing to win 14 major races. Cont.
rscarbro100 10 months ago
@rscarbro100 Look it up...Cy was voted Handicap Horse of the Year in 1948...Coaltown was voted Best Sprinter, even tho Cy beat him easily both times they met in '48...Coaltown ran more short races that's why he was #1 sprinter, I guess....
1948BigCy 10 months ago
Citation was a great horse and there is no doubt about it. Man O' War was also a great horse. But the one horse that you must admit stood out with all three was Secretariet. If all three horses could have ran the Triple Crown at the same time in their prime you would have to give at least two races to Secretariet. The greatest horse ever is Big Red. PERIOD!!!! End of Conversation
stephen39217 11 months ago
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1948BigCy 11 months ago
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HarbingerOfBattle 1 year ago
I know this will sound very ignorant of me, but I just half to know. Most Big Ciy supporters make a case ageist Man o' war by saying "Who did he ever beat?" Well just for sake of argument and out of curiosity(and I mean no offense to the Big Ciy fans) , who did Citation ever beat?
HarbingerOfBattle 1 year ago
@HarbingerOfBattle It does not sound ignorant my good man. Honestly I say this will all due respect to CY. The simple truth of the matter is CY never ran against great competition. Thats no fault of his own. Armed & Coaltown were the only two horses of substance But Coaltown was not that good when CY beat him nor was Armed. Armed was washed up by 1948 & never won a major race after 1947.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 Remember, the great sportswriter Charles Hatton wrote that the track nowadays are perhaps 1 second faster, not much at all in a article he wrote June 11, 1973. So don't let them MOW or other fans give you the BS about those slow tracks back then. It is a total lie.They want you to think those poor horses back in the heydays were at a big disadvantage trying to paint a picture they could have beaten Secretariat in the Belmont or other great races he had.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@HarbingerOfBattle CY fans are right as well. Man 0' War did not beat anyone either. I say CY competition was much better than MOW's. Sir Barton was washed up by the time MOW ran against him from a quote by the late great trainer Holly Hudges.Read 'MOW in the Dwyer'. N.Y. times gives the accounts of that race in which John P, Grier gave MOW the race of his life. Near the end they were neck to neck & with 2 cracks of the whip near the end MOW pulled away & won by 1 1/2 lengths. Time 1:49 1/8.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 Ah, but let's not forget Man O' War's time in the Jockey Club Stakes, a race that actually WAS 1and 1/2 miles. He won the race in 2:28 4/5 under heavy restraint in the first mile and finished under a strong pull.
HarbingerOfBattle 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 You're such a douche. I love seeing that out of 700 comments 500 must be yours. MOW tripped at the beginning of the Dwyer and still won setting a TR/AR/WR. MOW trashed Grier under restraint two other times and you know it.
evyn10014 9 months ago 2