Isaiah 57 is the prophesy of the first coming of Jesus Christ... Yes, this is the part where you say that "well that's your interpretation", but really... You can you really say that it's coincidental for it to fit perfectly on the death and resurrection of Christ? I'm talking perfect to the "T"! While your definition is a contradiction to the entire new testament...
Also, I'm confused how Mark 14:21 is evidence of your assumption... How would it had been better for him to have never been born... if all are saved? Why is he an exception?
To me, this entire idea just sounds like an excuse for the evil of humans... With this idea, we can just blame all sin on God... Very dangerous belief.
@Ironmaw1776 I'd pick up the Hebrew and Greek languages... The Untranslated Bibles completely contradict your interpretations. It's very dangerous to take interpretation through a translation... It's pretty much impossible to have an accurate translation from the ancient languages to English.
romans ch 1-4 is the salvation message. not jn 3 16.<--.thats just "as a matter of fact"...salvation=few christians will enter thru the narrow gates. first u go to hell until youre pulled out for the great white throne judgement with everyone then u r cast into the pit. period. or wait die & learn it then. this is what is coming - no way around it..of like mind & only one truth.
@dubvishun, the fact is that God will have all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, and that God is the savior of all people, and that Christ will draw all people to himself, and that all things will be subjected to Christ and every knee will bow and tongue confess and swear allegiance to Christ and sing his name to the glory of the father. Those are the facts jack, and one day you will understand it and be ashamed for ever having believed otherwise. Peace!
So when you locate this large group who do and teach what Christ said in these verses, these are the ones then to whom Christ said He would declare: "I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!" (Mat. 7:23).
I think its clear that the ones to whom Jesus refers in Mat. 7:23 are the religious people who are always judging others and who consider themselves without sin. Like the sadducees and the pharisees of his own time. The catholic church is the mystery Babylon the great harlot the mother of all harlots. The protestant churches are the harlots who's mother is the catholic church. Is it any wonder they all teach the same pagan eternal torture doctrine?
It is the doctrine of eternal torture that ties them all together, the one thing beside Christ himself that hasn't changed since Augustine ... The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture, and death will be swallowed up in victory ... So if the lake of fire is the second death, then how could it last forever?
All of this confusion caused by the mistranslation of one little word and its derivatives ... Aion ... As well as by the translation of four different words into one single word ... Hell ...
isn't it?" The truth is there isn't a nickel's work of difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. Both theologies teach that Christ's sacrifice for all will utterly fail, sending the majority of humankind into the tortures of Hell for eternity
I can just hear all those Catholics out there saying: "Right on, brother Smith, all those Protestants are all screwed up ever since they rebelled against the Catholic Faith." And I can hear just as loudly from the Protestants saying: "Right on, brother Smith, it's those Catholics out there with all their statue worship,
Now lets look at Ephesians 2:8 and Hebrews 11:1. " For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—where Paul says, "We are saved by "grace through faith, right? The writer of Hebrews defines faith with 1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Agreed? So one cannot be saved in death where there is no chance for faith because they see that Jesus is Lord, and that God is salvation. Cont.
Ok, This is a lot to cover. So I'll start tonight and I'll try to keep it brief, but I bet it will take a few days. 1) "God does not allow repentance after death"-- Lets Start with Matthew 25:31-46 along with Hebrews 9:27. So once a man dies then comes the judgment where Christ separates the "sheep from the goats". Then Jesus concludes with "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." cont.
It always comes back to the same thing doesn't it? The fact that aion and aionios are translated as eternal when that aion really means age. And when i show you the various passages where aion is translated as world or age instead of eternity you tell me that the word aion changes its meaning according to context. That is simply linguistically false. the translation should read life age enduring life and age enduring pubishment. I covered this in the video i'm not sure if you watched it all.
I would appreciate it if you would answer my posts, and then I will answer yours in turn. By the way, this will take longer than a few days if we are to cover all the bases. the fact is the bible tells us plainly that everyone will turn to Christ the living and the dead, if not in this age then in the ages to come. When Christ returns the truth concerning his reconciliation of all things will finally be revealed to the blind sheep who claim him as lord while yet damning the rest of the world.
No the Bible does not say all will "turn to Him" it says that everyone will "confess that Jesus is Lord", but as shown by Matt. 7:21-23, not everyone will be saved. Also remember when Jesus said: 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Only a few cannot mean everyone.
The real key to understanding who these end-time deceivers are is to realize that they will do all that they do, in the name of the Lord (in the name of Jesus, the Christ).
You are taking scripture and making it say what you want it to say. I will not argue this with you, because I think we both have more important needs as followers of Christ. We need to tell people the gospel. "To me" this verse is saying that some from every nation will worship before Him, but not every single person. I have a question for you. There was recently in the news a story of a man who bit out the eye of his 4-year-old son, and cut out the other eye and destroyed it.
So explain to me how this action will not have permanent consequences for the one behind it i.e. Satan. For the man who did this the consequences have been paid for by Christ, but for the one behind all of the death, misery, and horrors of this world (Satan) the consequences are permanent, and for all who deny Jesus they will be with him. Please feel free to talk with me about our faith, but as for this subject my mind is made up. Sorry to have started this only to bow out...
1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL DIE(all or some?), so also in Christ ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE(all or some? same Greek word)."
1 Timothy 2:4 "Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."(why pray Gods will be done if we believe that it will not?)
1 Tim 4:9-11 This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance.For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach,because we trust in the living God,who is the Savior of ALL MEN,ESPECIALLY OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE.
Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
Jude 1:9 "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
You see god created Satan for the purpose of providing a contrast whereby his goodness might be known. Satan is not Gods enemy, he is mans enemy. He is the waster god created for the purpose of destroying. Even Michael dared not accuse him, but you do?
"You see god created Satan for the purpose of providing a contrast whereby his goodness might be known" According to Ezekiel 28:14, satan was "anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Satan was not made for a contrast but as a compliment to God. Satan chose to be a contrast. I don't accuse Satan.The Bible does.
I understand your bowing out, the indoctrination by the traditions of men you have been taught make the word of god to no effect.
Mark 7:13 "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."
I am truly sorry that your heart is hardened to the true gospel of salvation which is the effect of the word of God. I pray you come to understand how this false doctrine of eternal torture misrepresent the will of God..
So will I go to "temporary" hell for not accepting this "true gospel" that has been misinterpreted by all churches and some of the most godly people in history? Or will I be saved by the blood of Christ period. This is my point. Whether or not you are right or I am right we are both saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and this not of ourselves. The gospel says that he who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. I believe and I am putting my hope in Him.
So while you may be right or wrong, either way it does neither of us any good to argue it when no matter what the case we are both called to share the good news and to keep people from Hell. So if you want to tell people that Jesus came to die for their sins to save them from a temporary death fine. I am not going to keep defending a doctrine that is very clearly presented in scripture. You are welcome to condemn me to temporary hell, but I will focus on serving the Lord. God Bless you.
you weren't called to keep people from hell...you were called to be a servant and make disciples out of all kinds of people. we are called to share the good news, but there is no statement of sharing that news in order to save others from unending torment. the good news rescues you from yourself.
two points--he is the consuming fire--all will be refined in that fire, even the good-old followers of christ...for some this will be welcomed, for others--ouch.
The case for permanent Hell just so you don't think that I am bowing out do to lack of scripture, but only because of the pointlessness of this in light of the fact that we both believe that the only way to God is through Christ, and that we are called to preach the GOOD NEWS. Matt.18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Revelation 14:11: " And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night" Psalm 9:5 You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever. Rev. 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev. 20:15 All whose names were not found written in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
finally, i'm not writing to convince you of something or to change your mind. i, like you, celebrate the risen savior. i do my best to follow his lead because i believe he is the way.
what i must say is that we have to identify two things, 1)what/where is the kingdom of god; 2)what exactly is eternal life?
Hmm? Nolife after death? Kingdom is only in life? Hmmm??? Could you explain these verses in this theology? Luke 23:40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. 43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." ???
John 14: 1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God ; trust also in me. 2 My Father's house has plenty of room; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going." or how about?
there is life after death. i think the problem is that most evangelicals focus on the point of getting saved to go somewhere when we die.
yes--by all means, there is a paradise. i just think that many miss the point that it is our calling to follow god's will and experience the kingdom now...thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
jesus brought heaven to us...and truly, i will be with him in 'paradise' as well. :^)
@twb2b420 That and what about when peter rebukes Christ to his face? Jesus looks at him and says "Get behind me satan!"...
The entire theory of Universal Salvation just boggles my mind! It doesn't make any sense at all! Why would we be punished at all if we're just apparently puppets of God? We can pretty much blame all our wrong doings on God... Why doesn't that condemn him? This idea is soooo dangerous, it's scary... I don't think I'd want to follow a God that thinks of me as a tool...
not to write it all away, for i'm sure that it has significant baring in the lives of believers, but i think that translation and context are very important in revelation.
forever and ever is a very long time...the bible also tells us to kill disobeient children and to open the pregnant women of our enemies, but jesus tells us to love them both....do you love by killing?
if you disobey the rules at the local public pool, the lifeguard will cast you out=consequence. apply to eternity too?
if we all started cutting when we sinned, we would all lack hands, feet, and eyeballs. not that it would be horrible to lack these, for many wonderful people have no use of their hands, feet, or eyes.
i personally beleive that this is figurative language (a favorite of jesus) to help us understand the fact that we will never be perfect.
again, there is nothing wrong with being crippled, i think god can do a lot with and through crippled people...especially those who love him.
Philippians 2:10-11 "10 That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of things IN HEAVEN(all angels including th fallen), and things IN EARTH(all living humanity), and things UNDER THE EARTH(all that have ever lived and are now dead); And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Isaiah 45:22 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, ALL the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."
Isaiah 25:6-8 "And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto ALL people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over ALL people, and the vail that is spread over ALL nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off ALL faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth"
Col 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL THINGS unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."
Acts 3:19 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."
I John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY(believers in this life), but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"
There are many more but i believe my point is made... I did not make the bible say these things, that is what it says. But in order to make the argument of eternal torture not contradict these verses, those who believe in it say these verses really mean some and not all. Who's making it say what they want it to?
Why did you not include the next verses in Isaiah 57??? But the wicked are like the tossing sea, which cannot rest, whose waves cast up mire and mud. 21 "There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
You left this out??? Why??? Possibly because these verses don't say what you are trying to make them say? Seems prettty clear that the wicked WILL HAVE NO PEACE... Doesn't sound like they get forgiven to me???
I left it out because it doesn't change what is being said, it doesn't contradict the fact that God will heal the wicked. If you notice i left out most of the chapter, i only read the part where God tells us he will heal the wicked and restore comforts unto them and unto their mourners.
While they are yet wicked there is no peace unto them, that is for certain. Wickedness eats at the heart, only a relationship with God gives true peace, eventually everyone will know God.
God does heal the wicked, but only if they humble themselves and turn to God. These verses are speaking to the repentant of Israel, and in the broader sense to the repentant in general. And these verses dont change anything in the text; they simply confirm that these verses do not say what you are trying to make them say. They clearly show "the wicked cannot have rest". How can one be with God and have no rest. God does not allow repentance after death, if so explain the rich man and Lazarus.
You are assuming this to be true, because it never says anything like this in the bible, unless i'm mistaken and you can quote for me epistle chapter and verse. It never expressly says repentance is acceptable after death either, though it does elude to it in 1st peter especially among other places... cont.
1 peter 3:19-20 "19 through whomd also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water"...
These spirits are of the people who died in the time of Noah who were disobedient and were already in "prison". Why did Jesus preach to them?
"They clearly show "the wicked cannot have rest". How can one be with God and have no rest."
They clearly show that the wicked have no rest or peace while they are without God. Just as every born again Christian had no peace and no true rest before being drawn by God.
This was a parable given by Christ. Most Christians fail to realize that its a parable at all and take it for a literal tale of history from the mouth of Christ much as they take the words Jesus spoke concerning gehenna and the plucking out of the eye if it see evil. If every Christian were to take that so literally as they take the parable of Lazerus and the rich man we'd all be blind and limbless.
The parable of Lazerus and the rich man is actually quite simple when you look at the circumstances under which Jesus gave it. The rich man represented the pharisees and Lazerus represented the tax collectors, and other gentiles who had gathered together to hear Jesus speak, for whom the pharisees ridiculed Christ because he accepted them to hear his words. The bosom of Abraham represents being accepted by God by faith as Abraham was. Cont.
Thus the bosom of Abraham represents the church which Christ had laid the foundation for already at that time, being filled with gentiles and Jews who the religious leaders of Israel repudiated. The place where the rich man suffered represents the state of being cut off from God which was to be the case for Israel soon after Christ death when the temple was destroyed and Israel was exiled. This goes hand in hand with what Christ meant when he spoke to the Jews about Gehenna in Mathew.
Now to prove by scripture that Christ will accept the repentance of men after death...
Psalms 22:27 "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul."
"God has given him a name which is above every name that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things UNDER THE EARTH(i.e. in hades/sheol/the grave... The dead); and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" Philippians 2:9-11.
Romans 14:11 "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
All this is true, but remember that Jesus said: Jesus said: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Isaiah 57 is the prophesy of the first coming of Jesus Christ... Yes, this is the part where you say that "well that's your interpretation", but really... You can you really say that it's coincidental for it to fit perfectly on the death and resurrection of Christ? I'm talking perfect to the "T"! While your definition is a contradiction to the entire new testament...
TheRawWord 2 months ago
Also, I'm confused how Mark 14:21 is evidence of your assumption... How would it had been better for him to have never been born... if all are saved? Why is he an exception?
To me, this entire idea just sounds like an excuse for the evil of humans... With this idea, we can just blame all sin on God... Very dangerous belief.
TheRawWord 2 months ago
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 would you deny this?
TheRawWord 2 months ago
@TheRawWord
Of course not ... But i can pretty much guarantee we both have a different opinion as to what Paul actually meant when he wrote that.
Ironmaw1776 2 months ago
Comment removed
TheRawWord 2 months ago
@Ironmaw1776 I'd pick up the Hebrew and Greek languages... The Untranslated Bibles completely contradict your interpretations. It's very dangerous to take interpretation through a translation... It's pretty much impossible to have an accurate translation from the ancient languages to English.
TheRawWord 2 months ago
romans ch 1-4 is the salvation message. not jn 3 16.<--.thats just "as a matter of fact"...salvation=few christians will enter thru the narrow gates. first u go to hell until youre pulled out for the great white throne judgement with everyone then u r cast into the pit. period. or wait die & learn it then. this is what is coming - no way around it..of like mind & only one truth.
dubvishun 2 months ago
@dubvishun, the fact is that God will have all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, and that God is the savior of all people, and that Christ will draw all people to himself, and that all things will be subjected to Christ and every knee will bow and tongue confess and swear allegiance to Christ and sing his name to the glory of the father. Those are the facts jack, and one day you will understand it and be ashamed for ever having believed otherwise. Peace!
Ironmaw1776 2 months ago
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SputnikMedia 1 year ago
So when you locate this large group who do and teach what Christ said in these verses, these are the ones then to whom Christ said He would declare: "I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!" (Mat. 7:23).
916bigAl 2 years ago
I think its clear that the ones to whom Jesus refers in Mat. 7:23 are the religious people who are always judging others and who consider themselves without sin. Like the sadducees and the pharisees of his own time. The catholic church is the mystery Babylon the great harlot the mother of all harlots. The protestant churches are the harlots who's mother is the catholic church. Is it any wonder they all teach the same pagan eternal torture doctrine?
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
It is the doctrine of eternal torture that ties them all together, the one thing beside Christ himself that hasn't changed since Augustine ... The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture, and death will be swallowed up in victory ... So if the lake of fire is the second death, then how could it last forever?
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
All of this confusion caused by the mistranslation of one little word and its derivatives ... Aion ... As well as by the translation of four different words into one single word ... Hell ...
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
isn't it?" The truth is there isn't a nickel's work of difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. Both theologies teach that Christ's sacrifice for all will utterly fail, sending the majority of humankind into the tortures of Hell for eternity
916bigAl 2 years ago
I can just hear all those Catholics out there saying: "Right on, brother Smith, all those Protestants are all screwed up ever since they rebelled against the Catholic Faith." And I can hear just as loudly from the Protestants saying: "Right on, brother Smith, it's those Catholics out there with all their statue worship,
916bigAl 2 years ago
Now lets look at Ephesians 2:8 and Hebrews 11:1. " For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—where Paul says, "We are saved by "grace through faith, right? The writer of Hebrews defines faith with 1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Agreed? So one cannot be saved in death where there is no chance for faith because they see that Jesus is Lord, and that God is salvation. Cont.
twb2b420 2 years ago
Ok, This is a lot to cover. So I'll start tonight and I'll try to keep it brief, but I bet it will take a few days. 1) "God does not allow repentance after death"-- Lets Start with Matthew 25:31-46 along with Hebrews 9:27. So once a man dies then comes the judgment where Christ separates the "sheep from the goats". Then Jesus concludes with "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." cont.
twb2b420 2 years ago
It always comes back to the same thing doesn't it? The fact that aion and aionios are translated as eternal when that aion really means age. And when i show you the various passages where aion is translated as world or age instead of eternity you tell me that the word aion changes its meaning according to context. That is simply linguistically false. the translation should read life age enduring life and age enduring pubishment. I covered this in the video i'm not sure if you watched it all.
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
I don't need to debate this point with you I will show you using many other scriptures.
twb2b420 2 years ago
I would appreciate it if you would answer my posts, and then I will answer yours in turn. By the way, this will take longer than a few days if we are to cover all the bases. the fact is the bible tells us plainly that everyone will turn to Christ the living and the dead, if not in this age then in the ages to come. When Christ returns the truth concerning his reconciliation of all things will finally be revealed to the blind sheep who claim him as lord while yet damning the rest of the world.
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
No the Bible does not say all will "turn to Him" it says that everyone will "confess that Jesus is Lord", but as shown by Matt. 7:21-23, not everyone will be saved. Also remember when Jesus said: 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Only a few cannot mean everyone.
twb2b420 2 years ago
The real key to understanding who these end-time deceivers are is to realize that they will do all that they do, in the name of the Lord (in the name of Jesus, the Christ).
916bigAl 2 years ago
you said, "No the Bible does not say all will "turn to Him"" ...
Psalms 22:27 "All the ends of the world shall remember and TURN UNTO the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee."
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
You are taking scripture and making it say what you want it to say. I will not argue this with you, because I think we both have more important needs as followers of Christ. We need to tell people the gospel. "To me" this verse is saying that some from every nation will worship before Him, but not every single person. I have a question for you. There was recently in the news a story of a man who bit out the eye of his 4-year-old son, and cut out the other eye and destroyed it.
twb2b420 2 years ago
So explain to me how this action will not have permanent consequences for the one behind it i.e. Satan. For the man who did this the consequences have been paid for by Christ, but for the one behind all of the death, misery, and horrors of this world (Satan) the consequences are permanent, and for all who deny Jesus they will be with him. Please feel free to talk with me about our faith, but as for this subject my mind is made up. Sorry to have started this only to bow out...
twb2b420 2 years ago
1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL DIE(all or some?), so also in Christ ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE(all or some? same Greek word)."
1 Timothy 2:4 "Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."(why pray Gods will be done if we believe that it will not?)
1 Tim 4:9-11 This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance.For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach,because we trust in the living God,who is the Savior of ALL MEN,ESPECIALLY OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE.
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
Jude 1:9 "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
You see god created Satan for the purpose of providing a contrast whereby his goodness might be known. Satan is not Gods enemy, he is mans enemy. He is the waster god created for the purpose of destroying. Even Michael dared not accuse him, but you do?
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
"You see god created Satan for the purpose of providing a contrast whereby his goodness might be known" According to Ezekiel 28:14, satan was "anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Satan was not made for a contrast but as a compliment to God. Satan chose to be a contrast. I don't accuse Satan.The Bible does.
twb2b420 2 years ago
I understand your bowing out, the indoctrination by the traditions of men you have been taught make the word of god to no effect.
Mark 7:13 "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."
I am truly sorry that your heart is hardened to the true gospel of salvation which is the effect of the word of God. I pray you come to understand how this false doctrine of eternal torture misrepresent the will of God..
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
So will I go to "temporary" hell for not accepting this "true gospel" that has been misinterpreted by all churches and some of the most godly people in history? Or will I be saved by the blood of Christ period. This is my point. Whether or not you are right or I am right we are both saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and this not of ourselves. The gospel says that he who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. I believe and I am putting my hope in Him.
twb2b420 2 years ago
So while you may be right or wrong, either way it does neither of us any good to argue it when no matter what the case we are both called to share the good news and to keep people from Hell. So if you want to tell people that Jesus came to die for their sins to save them from a temporary death fine. I am not going to keep defending a doctrine that is very clearly presented in scripture. You are welcome to condemn me to temporary hell, but I will focus on serving the Lord. God Bless you.
twb2b420 2 years ago
you weren't called to keep people from hell...you were called to be a servant and make disciples out of all kinds of people. we are called to share the good news, but there is no statement of sharing that news in order to save others from unending torment. the good news rescues you from yourself.
two points--he is the consuming fire--all will be refined in that fire, even the good-old followers of christ...for some this will be welcomed, for others--ouch.
and lakes lack bars or walls.
cliffordchesney 2 years ago
The case for permanent Hell just so you don't think that I am bowing out do to lack of scripture, but only because of the pointlessness of this in light of the fact that we both believe that the only way to God is through Christ, and that we are called to preach the GOOD NEWS. Matt.18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
twb2b420 2 years ago
Revelation 14:11: " And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night" Psalm 9:5 You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever. Rev. 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
twb2b420 2 years ago
Rev. 20:15 All whose names were not found written in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
twb2b420 2 years ago
finally, i'm not writing to convince you of something or to change your mind. i, like you, celebrate the risen savior. i do my best to follow his lead because i believe he is the way.
what i must say is that we have to identify two things, 1)what/where is the kingdom of god; 2)what exactly is eternal life?
answers:
1) luke 17:21
2) john 17:3
nothing about life after 'death'. it is here, now.
i am glad you answered his call and pray that you will bear much fruit (john 15:5; gal 5:22).
cliffordchesney 2 years ago
Hmm? Nolife after death? Kingdom is only in life? Hmmm??? Could you explain these verses in this theology? Luke 23:40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. 43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." ???
twb2b420 2 years ago
John 14: 1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God ; trust also in me. 2 My Father's house has plenty of room; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going." or how about?
twb2b420 2 years ago
GREAT QUESTION!
there is life after death. i think the problem is that most evangelicals focus on the point of getting saved to go somewhere when we die.
yes--by all means, there is a paradise. i just think that many miss the point that it is our calling to follow god's will and experience the kingdom now...thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
jesus brought heaven to us...and truly, i will be with him in 'paradise' as well. :^)
good news---you will be too!
cliffordchesney 2 years ago
@twb2b420 That and what about when peter rebukes Christ to his face? Jesus looks at him and says "Get behind me satan!"...
The entire theory of Universal Salvation just boggles my mind! It doesn't make any sense at all! Why would we be punished at all if we're just apparently puppets of God? We can pretty much blame all our wrong doings on God... Why doesn't that condemn him? This idea is soooo dangerous, it's scary... I don't think I'd want to follow a God that thinks of me as a tool...
TheRawWord 2 months ago
not to write it all away, for i'm sure that it has significant baring in the lives of believers, but i think that translation and context are very important in revelation.
forever and ever is a very long time...the bible also tells us to kill disobeient children and to open the pregnant women of our enemies, but jesus tells us to love them both....do you love by killing?
if you disobey the rules at the local public pool, the lifeguard will cast you out=consequence. apply to eternity too?
cliffordchesney 2 years ago
@twb2b420 Truth96130
MrPaulryan76 1 month ago
if we all started cutting when we sinned, we would all lack hands, feet, and eyeballs. not that it would be horrible to lack these, for many wonderful people have no use of their hands, feet, or eyes.
i personally beleive that this is figurative language (a favorite of jesus) to help us understand the fact that we will never be perfect.
again, there is nothing wrong with being crippled, i think god can do a lot with and through crippled people...especially those who love him.
cliffordchesney 2 years ago
Well, i understand your point, but it seems to me that your the one making the bible say what you want it to in this regard.
It says ...
"and ALL the KINDREDS of the NATIONS shall worship before thee"
Not ...
"and SOME of the KINDREDS of the NATIONS shall worship before thee".
The same is with every other verse that says basically the same thing, and there are many of them ...
John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to me." (it doesn't say some of all)
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
Philippians 2:10-11 "10 That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of things IN HEAVEN(all angels including th fallen), and things IN EARTH(all living humanity), and things UNDER THE EARTH(all that have ever lived and are now dead); And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Isaiah 45:22 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, ALL the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
Isaiah 25:6-8 "And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto ALL people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over ALL people, and the vail that is spread over ALL nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off ALL faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth"
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
Col 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL THINGS unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."
Acts 3:19 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."
I John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY(believers in this life), but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
There are many more but i believe my point is made... I did not make the bible say these things, that is what it says. But in order to make the argument of eternal torture not contradict these verses, those who believe in it say these verses really mean some and not all. Who's making it say what they want it to?
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
Why did you not include the next verses in Isaiah 57??? But the wicked are like the tossing sea, which cannot rest, whose waves cast up mire and mud. 21 "There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
You left this out??? Why??? Possibly because these verses don't say what you are trying to make them say? Seems prettty clear that the wicked WILL HAVE NO PEACE... Doesn't sound like they get forgiven to me???
twb2b420 2 years ago
I left it out because it doesn't change what is being said, it doesn't contradict the fact that God will heal the wicked. If you notice i left out most of the chapter, i only read the part where God tells us he will heal the wicked and restore comforts unto them and unto their mourners.
While they are yet wicked there is no peace unto them, that is for certain. Wickedness eats at the heart, only a relationship with God gives true peace, eventually everyone will know God.
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
God does heal the wicked, but only if they humble themselves and turn to God. These verses are speaking to the repentant of Israel, and in the broader sense to the repentant in general. And these verses dont change anything in the text; they simply confirm that these verses do not say what you are trying to make them say. They clearly show "the wicked cannot have rest". How can one be with God and have no rest. God does not allow repentance after death, if so explain the rich man and Lazarus.
twb2b420 2 years ago
"God does not allow repentance after death"
You are assuming this to be true, because it never says anything like this in the bible, unless i'm mistaken and you can quote for me epistle chapter and verse. It never expressly says repentance is acceptable after death either, though it does elude to it in 1st peter especially among other places... cont.
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
1 peter 3:19-20 "19 through whomd also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water"...
These spirits are of the people who died in the time of Noah who were disobedient and were already in "prison". Why did Jesus preach to them?
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
"They clearly show "the wicked cannot have rest". How can one be with God and have no rest."
They clearly show that the wicked have no rest or peace while they are without God. Just as every born again Christian had no peace and no true rest before being drawn by God.
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
"explain the rich man and Lazarus."
This was a parable given by Christ. Most Christians fail to realize that its a parable at all and take it for a literal tale of history from the mouth of Christ much as they take the words Jesus spoke concerning gehenna and the plucking out of the eye if it see evil. If every Christian were to take that so literally as they take the parable of Lazerus and the rich man we'd all be blind and limbless.
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
The parable of Lazerus and the rich man is actually quite simple when you look at the circumstances under which Jesus gave it. The rich man represented the pharisees and Lazerus represented the tax collectors, and other gentiles who had gathered together to hear Jesus speak, for whom the pharisees ridiculed Christ because he accepted them to hear his words. The bosom of Abraham represents being accepted by God by faith as Abraham was. Cont.
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
Thus the bosom of Abraham represents the church which Christ had laid the foundation for already at that time, being filled with gentiles and Jews who the religious leaders of Israel repudiated. The place where the rich man suffered represents the state of being cut off from God which was to be the case for Israel soon after Christ death when the temple was destroyed and Israel was exiled. This goes hand in hand with what Christ meant when he spoke to the Jews about Gehenna in Mathew.
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
Now to prove by scripture that Christ will accept the repentance of men after death...
Psalms 22:27 "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul."
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
"God has given him a name which is above every name that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things UNDER THE EARTH(i.e. in hades/sheol/the grave... The dead); and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" Philippians 2:9-11.
Romans 14:11 "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Ironmaw1776 2 years ago
All this is true, but remember that Jesus said: Jesus said: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
twb2b420 2 years ago