@kingofcrunk1010 The band is Hussalonia, and they have this song and others available at the internet archive. This particular song (and the rest on the same album) have been devoted to the public domain.
"alienation" is a starting point --> Division of Labor --> Class structure. The more that new technology is introduced into society the more it becomes possible to remove "alienation" or "estrangement". I say possible because it could go negative or positive if technology is used or misused. The form of technology is the variable for change. The distribution of money through the various workers with varying salaries/wages create social class warfare. True by observation.
@cris750 Your point about technology is very interesting. I agree that technology has the ability to enhance alienation - as some industrial machinery did, or remove it - say by reducing the time required to do a menial necessary task. The kind of technology we get is influenced by our mode of production, so we tend to get technology which reinforces capitalism. Luckily technology also influences our mode of production so revolutionary technology can literally change the world.
K. Marx historical tribal example would show that "alienation" have existed when tribes exchanged resources through barter. Members of a tribe would be given roles and duties similar to the modern examples of the Division of Labor. No doubt that modern capitalism is filled with problems but K. Marx presentation is not adequate to critique it. I agree with your example but this existed when barter was common. Just replace "boss" with tribal chief or..... Premier.
@cris750 It's my understanding that tribal societies were not based on barter or commodity exchange. The vast majority of labor/production in these societies was done for immediate consumption by the community with no market exchange. The same is true for feudalism - there were markets, but most production was not for those markets. This results in a different kind of alienation. You're right, alienation alone cannot explain capitalism, it is just one piece, but it's an important piece.
K. Marx was definately not for the destruction of the Corporate entity(which the Soviet Union had done - which is actually post Marxist State Capitalism/Dictatorship of the State) or the destruction of the State entity( which the anarchists are for OR it allows for the Corporate take over of the state functions for society/Dictatorship of the Bourgeois). K. Marx wanted both the state and the corporate entities to serve the People.
@cris750 While I think we are largely in agreement, my reading of Marx leads to a more radical change than it sounds like you may be suggesting. It is possible for capitalism to have a progressive income tax, transparent corporations, and a more fair government (even though capitalism will always attempt to push these things out of the picture). These are good goals, but they do not transform our society from one of capitalism to socialism, we need a much more radical shift for that.
@MarxismToday What are your radical observations? I think the state entity would need to be more aggressive against the corporations. The U.S. would need to have amendments to guarantee PROFIT-SHARING and other measures that would champion the cause of the people(Worker/Citizens) and unemployed (Lumpen Proletariat/Citizens). If corporations have to be shed or lost because of these changes then it would be good in the long run because it would give room for NEW technologies.
@cris750 the things you suggest are massively important and should be fought for. Additionally, I hope to see us move beyond the concept of profits. Profits are the capitalist form of surplus value. I believe workers should create and control a surplus, using it for the good of mankind. I don't particularly think workers in "more profitable" industries should be controlling a larger portion of the entire social surplus. Unemployment is a symptom of capitalism. We have a long way to go.
@MarxismToday Should the workers VOTE on how the Corporation entity uses its Profits or Surplus Value? I think that the state and the corporate entity could be controlled by the people when the people are SELF-AWARE. Only through social action could both the state and corporation be efficiently controlled by the people. Your scenerio would suggest: 1. Take over by the state(Soviet Union had done this) 2. Then direct involvement by the workers through voting.(Never was done!?)
@cris750 On voting: Perhaps. There should be some way for workers to collectively control the surplus they create. Voting would be one way to do this. This does not need to require the state, but it could. Worker's control of industries doesn't necessarily have to be a state owned industry. Also, state owned industries can run the same way as private ones and be just as problematic. The key is worker control rather than ruling elite control. And yes, people must be self aware for this.
@MarxismToday K. Marx presented the problem of Division of Labor which creates the social Class structure problem. How could the division of Labor problem be eliminated according to K. Marx model and presentation. The "Alienation" problem is connected with the Division of Labor problem. K. Marx was definately wrong. The Division of Labor is a natural phenomenon it exist in nature including among the Gens 1.0 history of the human race. Gens 2.0 is impossible to be realized and achieved.
@cris750 Division of labor is connected to alienation, but they are not one in the same thing. I'm confused; on what account are you claiming Marx was wrong? Doing the same 3 second task over and over for 40 hours because the boss said to is a lot different than one man choosing to fish while another chooses to plant crops. Alienation also includes relations of production, and how people relate to each other through the medium of production.
@MarxismToday alienation is constant throughout history even when there is no division of labor. While division of labor is not constant. The class structure developed later when currency became more in use and therefore obviously it is not constant. Class structure is a recent phenomenon created to buffer antagonism against the leadership structure. By making some of the proletariat mass into managers making more money than the rest of the wage workers.
The State(all levels of government) has to be transparent and fair. K. Marx was definately for transparent gov. and to make sure officilas are NOT in office for indefinite period of time. READ K. Marx notes on his experience in the Paris Commune. Worker-Citizen is a member of 3 Modern tribes: Corporation,Nation-State and Planet(anti-nature observation by K. Marx goes into environmental issues). The corp. has to be informative to Worker-Citizen w/o giving out trade secrets.
Why? because in the past it used to be two tribes exchanging resources and every member of the tribe was involved in the exchange. Today's Modern Tribes are the nation-state and corporations/companies. The "alienation" developed throughout history like...economical evolution until the Worker-Citizen(Proletariat) is now HUMAN CAPITAL rather than a member of the new Modern tribe. THEREFORE, the Corporation/Company has to inform the worker of the progress in some manner. The state also has to be..
Answer to Karl Marx Alienation: 1. New Income Tax system where most of the money flows back to the lower income workers once a year. <--- This is how the STATE is properly used to serve the people rather than the STATE confiscating private property or property of immigrants which K. Marx advocated. 2. SELF-REALIZATION of the Worker-Citizen within the Corporate entity. How? The Worker-Citizen is informed about the revenue of the ECONOMIC TRIBE(Corporation/Company). ........
What's the music?
kingofcrunk1010 4 months ago
@kingofcrunk1010 The band is Hussalonia, and they have this song and others available at the internet archive. This particular song (and the rest on the same album) have been devoted to the public domain.
MarxismToday 4 months ago
"alienation" is a starting point --> Division of Labor --> Class structure. The more that new technology is introduced into society the more it becomes possible to remove "alienation" or "estrangement". I say possible because it could go negative or positive if technology is used or misused. The form of technology is the variable for change. The distribution of money through the various workers with varying salaries/wages create social class warfare. True by observation.
cris750 7 months ago
@cris750 Your point about technology is very interesting. I agree that technology has the ability to enhance alienation - as some industrial machinery did, or remove it - say by reducing the time required to do a menial necessary task. The kind of technology we get is influenced by our mode of production, so we tend to get technology which reinforces capitalism. Luckily technology also influences our mode of production so revolutionary technology can literally change the world.
MarxismToday 7 months ago
K. Marx historical tribal example would show that "alienation" have existed when tribes exchanged resources through barter. Members of a tribe would be given roles and duties similar to the modern examples of the Division of Labor. No doubt that modern capitalism is filled with problems but K. Marx presentation is not adequate to critique it. I agree with your example but this existed when barter was common. Just replace "boss" with tribal chief or..... Premier.
cris750 7 months ago
@cris750 It's my understanding that tribal societies were not based on barter or commodity exchange. The vast majority of labor/production in these societies was done for immediate consumption by the community with no market exchange. The same is true for feudalism - there were markets, but most production was not for those markets. This results in a different kind of alienation. You're right, alienation alone cannot explain capitalism, it is just one piece, but it's an important piece.
MarxismToday 7 months ago
K. Marx was definately not for the destruction of the Corporate entity(which the Soviet Union had done - which is actually post Marxist State Capitalism/Dictatorship of the State) or the destruction of the State entity( which the anarchists are for OR it allows for the Corporate take over of the state functions for society/Dictatorship of the Bourgeois). K. Marx wanted both the state and the corporate entities to serve the People.
cris750 7 months ago
@cris750 While I think we are largely in agreement, my reading of Marx leads to a more radical change than it sounds like you may be suggesting. It is possible for capitalism to have a progressive income tax, transparent corporations, and a more fair government (even though capitalism will always attempt to push these things out of the picture). These are good goals, but they do not transform our society from one of capitalism to socialism, we need a much more radical shift for that.
MarxismToday 7 months ago
@MarxismToday What are your radical observations? I think the state entity would need to be more aggressive against the corporations. The U.S. would need to have amendments to guarantee PROFIT-SHARING and other measures that would champion the cause of the people(Worker/Citizens) and unemployed (Lumpen Proletariat/Citizens). If corporations have to be shed or lost because of these changes then it would be good in the long run because it would give room for NEW technologies.
cris750 7 months ago
@cris750 the things you suggest are massively important and should be fought for. Additionally, I hope to see us move beyond the concept of profits. Profits are the capitalist form of surplus value. I believe workers should create and control a surplus, using it for the good of mankind. I don't particularly think workers in "more profitable" industries should be controlling a larger portion of the entire social surplus. Unemployment is a symptom of capitalism. We have a long way to go.
MarxismToday 7 months ago
@MarxismToday Should the workers VOTE on how the Corporation entity uses its Profits or Surplus Value? I think that the state and the corporate entity could be controlled by the people when the people are SELF-AWARE. Only through social action could both the state and corporation be efficiently controlled by the people. Your scenerio would suggest: 1. Take over by the state(Soviet Union had done this) 2. Then direct involvement by the workers through voting.(Never was done!?)
cris750 7 months ago
@cris750 On voting: Perhaps. There should be some way for workers to collectively control the surplus they create. Voting would be one way to do this. This does not need to require the state, but it could. Worker's control of industries doesn't necessarily have to be a state owned industry. Also, state owned industries can run the same way as private ones and be just as problematic. The key is worker control rather than ruling elite control. And yes, people must be self aware for this.
MarxismToday 7 months ago
@MarxismToday K. Marx presented the problem of Division of Labor which creates the social Class structure problem. How could the division of Labor problem be eliminated according to K. Marx model and presentation. The "Alienation" problem is connected with the Division of Labor problem. K. Marx was definately wrong. The Division of Labor is a natural phenomenon it exist in nature including among the Gens 1.0 history of the human race. Gens 2.0 is impossible to be realized and achieved.
cris750 7 months ago
@cris750 Division of labor is connected to alienation, but they are not one in the same thing. I'm confused; on what account are you claiming Marx was wrong? Doing the same 3 second task over and over for 40 hours because the boss said to is a lot different than one man choosing to fish while another chooses to plant crops. Alienation also includes relations of production, and how people relate to each other through the medium of production.
MarxismToday 7 months ago
@MarxismToday alienation is constant throughout history even when there is no division of labor. While division of labor is not constant. The class structure developed later when currency became more in use and therefore obviously it is not constant. Class structure is a recent phenomenon created to buffer antagonism against the leadership structure. By making some of the proletariat mass into managers making more money than the rest of the wage workers.
cris750 6 months ago
The State(all levels of government) has to be transparent and fair. K. Marx was definately for transparent gov. and to make sure officilas are NOT in office for indefinite period of time. READ K. Marx notes on his experience in the Paris Commune. Worker-Citizen is a member of 3 Modern tribes: Corporation,Nation-State and Planet(anti-nature observation by K. Marx goes into environmental issues). The corp. has to be informative to Worker-Citizen w/o giving out trade secrets.
cris750 7 months ago
Why? because in the past it used to be two tribes exchanging resources and every member of the tribe was involved in the exchange. Today's Modern Tribes are the nation-state and corporations/companies. The "alienation" developed throughout history like...economical evolution until the Worker-Citizen(Proletariat) is now HUMAN CAPITAL rather than a member of the new Modern tribe. THEREFORE, the Corporation/Company has to inform the worker of the progress in some manner. The state also has to be..
cris750 7 months ago
Answer to Karl Marx Alienation: 1. New Income Tax system where most of the money flows back to the lower income workers once a year. <--- This is how the STATE is properly used to serve the people rather than the STATE confiscating private property or property of immigrants which K. Marx advocated. 2. SELF-REALIZATION of the Worker-Citizen within the Corporate entity. How? The Worker-Citizen is informed about the revenue of the ECONOMIC TRIBE(Corporation/Company). ........
cris750 7 months ago
Enlightening summary!
Okhlopkov 1 year ago
@Okhlopkov Glad you liked it. Part II should be coming soon, along with other Marxist classics.
MarxismToday 1 year ago