It seems like these guys are very good shots in the first place but I'm not seeing the full working of point shooting in the sense I practice with a fully squared off body and 90 degree pump handle, and pivoting to square off on each target. I'm not sure your average person carrying would point shoot in this manner. No crouch, or anything like that. Which is cool, but I work on the whole crouch, raised pump handle, applegate type of approach and it works for me. Revolver also slightly changes it
@GeorgiaShooter Nothing wrong with the Fairbairn/Sykes/Applegate method. I’m a practitioner myself. I was a dedicated Modern Technique guy before this class and had no training in threat-focused techniques. The QK is what allowed me to bridge the distance between sighted and unsighted fire using a few easy to learn tricks.
The secret to the technique lies in where the eyes look, and how. It may appear that we were only shooting isosceles, but there is actually more going on than just that.
If "Point Shooting" is pointing the weapon & not using the sight(s)-then that does not appear to be happening always in the video. These fellows are clearly indexing the gun in front of the target. While focus may be on target, I am sure they see the sights (although fuzzy ) in the peripheral vision. Point shooting works OK at short range, known static targets, but really starts to break down past 5-7 yds and when targets start moving erratically, yelling, cursing and shooting back.
@sbd45acp well, when I was trained to 'point shoot' they always said to transition to sights at that range. Point shooting detractors like to say 'it doesn't work at mid to long ranges', well, it isn't supposed to. It is just one tool in the box. Almost all cqb handgun techniques start with unsighted shooting until distance is achieved. My handgun retention instructor would mess people up when they tried using their sights within about 15ft.
jltzd- I agree that it can be a tool in the box but when and how during a rapid, fluid fight with targets& their very small kill zones do you say to yourself, "Do I point shoot or is it far enough or small enough to use sights?" My point is if you already have the weapon out in front of you why not use a sight picture or at least the front sight? A non moving assailant, in the open, square to me& no non shoots around in daylight at a known distance is what we practice against. Is that real?
I have covered 30 ft & stabbed in less time than it took a trained cop to get his weapon out of a Level III holster. Weapon retention is not the discussion, hitting something that counts, as many times as it takes, accurately enough, fast enough to put the bad guy down ASAP is. The one thing you do not have time to do is... miss.
If the bad guy has the gun & only 1/2 of his head exposed from a doorway saying he is about to shoot me at 10 FEET... that's point shoot / cqb distance right? You can go from a retention position or shoulder point to a sight picture in approx.15-.25 of a sec. so why not do that?
It's just training, I have no problem instinctually transitioning from point shooting to aimed shooting. I trained marksmenship first. Due to my training I naturally extend the firearm as much as needed to accurately get my shot off, transitioning from pure pointing, to silhouetting the gun, to site use. Time and space allowing, I will always bring the sights up, but I won't always wait long enough to truly 'aim'. I tend to get my shots in fast and center of mass. ymmv
jltzd- not picking on you.. "It's JUST training " strongly affects how we respond- Fight like you train,train like you fight. I agree most fights are up close quick and dirty- but what if center mass is not available or not working? Again not picking nits but.. By strict definition there is NOTHING, Natural or Instinctive about firing a gun in a fight. We pay good money for these sight things on the top of the gun why don't we train to use them, at least a little, in quick fashion?
@sbd45acp at 2 meters do you still use your sight alignment to hit your opponent? or you just point your gun at the target and fire? your opponent may shoot you by just pointing his gun on you while you are still aligning your sights on him.
IF... Point Shooting, Hip Shooting, Natural Shooting Index, Point Shoulder, Quarter Hip,Threat Focus Shooting, CQB Shooting, FBI Crouch, Sykes/ Fairbairn method are all Natural and Instinctive why do we have to be shown them? Why are the Instructors charging big bucks and holding classes?
no offense taken...there are hand to hand fighting styles that feel more natural to me than others, still have to train in them to be effective though. Same thing with weapon training. I don't personally know anyone who advocates never training with sights. I'm not in the military or law enforcement, I don't have people covering me, I might have to open a door or carry something/someone...glad I train to naturally use my sights when I need them.
It's hard to see from the video, but the plates were angled down and to the left, so the rounds were hitting the dirt slightly behind the target. We were shooting pretty close, and never had fear of getting hit.
The legal intricacies of SD with a handgun are too numerous to explain here. Apparently you thought the clip advanced the idea to put that many bullets into on perp, which of course it didn't at all.
The video simply demonstrated Dans ability to put rounds on threat with speed and accuracy without the need to look at the gun using the registered and copyrighted type of pistol shooting I train others in called Quick Kill.
The video just shows whats possible, no more or less.
The ammo was standard velocity Remingtom UMC 124 grain 9x19mm FMJ.
As far as the speed goes, shooting fast isn't that tough with enough practice. There are thousands of guys who can shoot faster and more accurately than I'm capable of.
As far as the why goes, the ability to deliver multiple shots rapidly center of mass to an aggressor or aggressors, especially when using a relatively low-powered gun such as a handgun, is a vital skill to possess.
why so when your sitting in front of the jury trying to justify what you just did you can explain to a bunch of Antigun people "yes I just punched 11 holes in him becouse I could" they will ask why not one or two?
Mako, having a discussion about the legalities and dynamics of a self defense shooting is impossible in this medium. It's just too limiting.
There are many good reasons for firing multiple shots, and they are quite defensible in court. Massad Ayoob has done the legwork for two decades that proves it.
The far-more-eloquent-than-I Gabe Suarez has written essays that explain the dynamics of SD shooting pretty well.
Google "Gabe Suarez on caliber selection and mag cap" for details.
Everything will be used against you. In fact, the firearm will be used against you in a court of law by a prosecutor. Revolvers are used by "cowboys". Magnums are used by "Dirty Harry wannabes". 1911's used by "military types". Derringers used by "those wishing to conceal arms". JHPs are designed to mushroom inside bodies. FMJs are designed to penetrate cleanly. There is NO such thing as a "good gun" or a "good bullet" when it comes to prosecution.
I think you missed the most important part. You have to survive the gunfight in order to sit in front of a jury. Additionally, television has made people think that only one shot is necessary to stop a determined attacker which may or may not happen but hey your only betting on your own life.
The distance we shot at that day was from about six feet to thirty feet, with the average from five to seven yards.
The plates we were shooting were angled down and to the left, so there was no splashback at all, with all of the slugs hitting the dirty down and slightly behind the target.
Your last drill was pretty slow. You might as well used flash sight pictures. I find that Jeff Cooper's method is superior to point shooting for longer distances.
Liist, it's difficult in a one-minute vid to put a given technique into it's correct context. This vid was intended to show how quickly one can learn to shoot without sights, to a couple of guys who were curious about PSing. The QK shooting in the vid was taken only fifteen or twenty minutes after learning the method and we were still going slow.
As the day progressed, we got faster and faster, and added in shooting on the run as well as other PSing techniques, such as Quick Fire, Fairbairn/Sykes, CAR, and others. We'd stopped filming by then, so no video of that.
It's difficult to see exactly what we were doing in the vid, but I can assure you that QK, and flash sight are very different things. FS is sight-focused, QK is target focused. What QK does is to bridge the gap between sighted shooting and PSing, and it works even out to 20 yards with practice. All methods, from EQC retention shooting to sighted fire are all merely steps along the sight continuum. All have their place.
I've been a Modern Technique shooter since 1989, and I'm very aware of Col. Cooper and his Shooting philosophy. I have great respect for what he did for the shooting community. Experience and force on force training have taught me both the strengths of MT, and it's very real limitations.
Sorry if I sounded like I was trying to bash point shooting. I've also done quite a few drills of point shooting like firing from the hip at almost point blank range to reduce the chances of being disarmed and point shooting when the time does not allow.
I guess it's good to be versatile for certain situations, but I don't know, maybe Point Shooting isn't so bad if you've already mastered the Modern Technique.
It seems like these guys are very good shots in the first place but I'm not seeing the full working of point shooting in the sense I practice with a fully squared off body and 90 degree pump handle, and pivoting to square off on each target. I'm not sure your average person carrying would point shoot in this manner. No crouch, or anything like that. Which is cool, but I work on the whole crouch, raised pump handle, applegate type of approach and it works for me. Revolver also slightly changes it
GeorgiaShooter 4 months ago
@GeorgiaShooter Nothing wrong with the Fairbairn/Sykes/Applegate method. I’m a practitioner myself. I was a dedicated Modern Technique guy before this class and had no training in threat-focused techniques. The QK is what allowed me to bridge the distance between sighted and unsighted fire using a few easy to learn tricks.
The secret to the technique lies in where the eyes look, and how. It may appear that we were only shooting isosceles, but there is actually more going on than just that.
wasatchdan 4 months ago
This kind of shooting, to me, I like to call "instinctive shooting" (identify, extend, and squeeze focusing on the target)
BigPimpin4646 2 years ago
If "Point Shooting" is pointing the weapon & not using the sight(s)-then that does not appear to be happening always in the video. These fellows are clearly indexing the gun in front of the target. While focus may be on target, I am sure they see the sights (although fuzzy ) in the peripheral vision. Point shooting works OK at short range, known static targets, but really starts to break down past 5-7 yds and when targets start moving erratically, yelling, cursing and shooting back.
sbd45acp 2 years ago 3
@sbd45acp well, when I was trained to 'point shoot' they always said to transition to sights at that range. Point shooting detractors like to say 'it doesn't work at mid to long ranges', well, it isn't supposed to. It is just one tool in the box. Almost all cqb handgun techniques start with unsighted shooting until distance is achieved. My handgun retention instructor would mess people up when they tried using their sights within about 15ft.
jltzd 2 years ago
jltzd- I agree that it can be a tool in the box but when and how during a rapid, fluid fight with targets& their very small kill zones do you say to yourself, "Do I point shoot or is it far enough or small enough to use sights?" My point is if you already have the weapon out in front of you why not use a sight picture or at least the front sight? A non moving assailant, in the open, square to me& no non shoots around in daylight at a known distance is what we practice against. Is that real?
sbd45acp 2 years ago
I have covered 30 ft & stabbed in less time than it took a trained cop to get his weapon out of a Level III holster. Weapon retention is not the discussion, hitting something that counts, as many times as it takes, accurately enough, fast enough to put the bad guy down ASAP is. The one thing you do not have time to do is... miss.
sbd45acp 2 years ago
If the bad guy has the gun & only 1/2 of his head exposed from a doorway saying he is about to shoot me at 10 FEET... that's point shoot / cqb distance right? You can go from a retention position or shoulder point to a sight picture in approx.15-.25 of a sec. so why not do that?
sbd45acp 2 years ago
It's just training, I have no problem instinctually transitioning from point shooting to aimed shooting. I trained marksmenship first. Due to my training I naturally extend the firearm as much as needed to accurately get my shot off, transitioning from pure pointing, to silhouetting the gun, to site use. Time and space allowing, I will always bring the sights up, but I won't always wait long enough to truly 'aim'. I tend to get my shots in fast and center of mass. ymmv
jltzd 2 years ago
jltzd- not picking on you.. "It's JUST training " strongly affects how we respond- Fight like you train,train like you fight. I agree most fights are up close quick and dirty- but what if center mass is not available or not working? Again not picking nits but.. By strict definition there is NOTHING, Natural or Instinctive about firing a gun in a fight. We pay good money for these sight things on the top of the gun why don't we train to use them, at least a little, in quick fashion?
sbd45acp 2 years ago
@sbd45acp at 2 meters do you still use your sight alignment to hit your opponent? or you just point your gun at the target and fire? your opponent may shoot you by just pointing his gun on you while you are still aligning your sights on him.
diosdadoapias 1 month ago
cont.
IF... Point Shooting, Hip Shooting, Natural Shooting Index, Point Shoulder, Quarter Hip,Threat Focus Shooting, CQB Shooting, FBI Crouch, Sykes/ Fairbairn method are all Natural and Instinctive why do we have to be shown them? Why are the Instructors charging big bucks and holding classes?
sbd45acp 2 years ago
no offense taken...there are hand to hand fighting styles that feel more natural to me than others, still have to train in them to be effective though. Same thing with weapon training. I don't personally know anyone who advocates never training with sights. I'm not in the military or law enforcement, I don't have people covering me, I might have to open a door or carry something/someone...glad I train to naturally use my sights when I need them.
jltzd 2 years ago
what kind of 1911
jkatz44 2 years ago
It was a parkerized Springfield Armory "Loaded" 1911. Springfield's model number for this gun is PX9109LP. Good gun.
wasatchdan 2 years ago
nice
maximusmarine 3 years ago
QK is a visual technique, so it doesn't matter if you use it one or two-handed.
Brownie's forum has all kinds of good info on QK, as well as other point shooting methods.
Google Threat Focused Forums. There are threads there that will answer your questions.
wasatchdan 3 years ago
Is QK two-handed technique only?
brentfoto 3 years ago
It's hard to see from the video, but the plates were angled down and to the left, so the rounds were hitting the dirt slightly behind the target. We were shooting pretty close, and never had fear of getting hit.
wasatchdan 3 years ago
Isn't it a little dangerous to shoot at heavy steel that close?
GetMeThere1 3 years ago
mako7828,
The legal intricacies of SD with a handgun are too numerous to explain here. Apparently you thought the clip advanced the idea to put that many bullets into on perp, which of course it didn't at all.
The video simply demonstrated Dans ability to put rounds on threat with speed and accuracy without the need to look at the gun using the registered and copyrighted type of pistol shooting I train others in called Quick Kill.
The video just shows whats possible, no more or less.
azqkr 3 years ago
good clip, are you shooting loaded down ammunition?
I dont see how (or why for that matter) your shooting so quickly.
Again though, good clip
mako7828 3 years ago
The ammo was standard velocity Remingtom UMC 124 grain 9x19mm FMJ.
As far as the speed goes, shooting fast isn't that tough with enough practice. There are thousands of guys who can shoot faster and more accurately than I'm capable of.
As far as the why goes, the ability to deliver multiple shots rapidly center of mass to an aggressor or aggressors, especially when using a relatively low-powered gun such as a handgun, is a vital skill to possess.
wasatchdan 3 years ago
why so when your sitting in front of the jury trying to justify what you just did you can explain to a bunch of Antigun people "yes I just punched 11 holes in him becouse I could" they will ask why not one or two?
mako7828 3 years ago
Mako, having a discussion about the legalities and dynamics of a self defense shooting is impossible in this medium. It's just too limiting.
There are many good reasons for firing multiple shots, and they are quite defensible in court. Massad Ayoob has done the legwork for two decades that proves it.
The far-more-eloquent-than-I Gabe Suarez has written essays that explain the dynamics of SD shooting pretty well.
Google "Gabe Suarez on caliber selection and mag cap" for details.
wasatchdan 3 years ago
Yup and Massad has also written on bullet choice could be used against you as well.
Anyhow No use arguing over it.
I will stick with two to the body one to the head.
mako7828 3 years ago
Good enough.:)
wasatchdan 3 years ago
Everything will be used against you. In fact, the firearm will be used against you in a court of law by a prosecutor. Revolvers are used by "cowboys". Magnums are used by "Dirty Harry wannabes". 1911's used by "military types". Derringers used by "those wishing to conceal arms". JHPs are designed to mushroom inside bodies. FMJs are designed to penetrate cleanly. There is NO such thing as a "good gun" or a "good bullet" when it comes to prosecution.
IncognitoQ 3 years ago
I think you missed the most important part. You have to survive the gunfight in order to sit in front of a jury. Additionally, television has made people think that only one shot is necessary to stop a determined attacker which may or may not happen but hey your only betting on your own life.
TJK7677 3 years ago
The ability to use more force is merely a trigger pull away.
mako7828 3 years ago
How far away are you from those plates? Looks close enough to catch splashback.
sshuravesky 4 years ago
The distance we shot at that day was from about six feet to thirty feet, with the average from five to seven yards.
The plates we were shooting were angled down and to the left, so there was no splashback at all, with all of the slugs hitting the dirty down and slightly behind the target.
wasatchdan 4 years ago
Nice shootin'. Impressive.
bruthav 4 years ago
Your last drill was pretty slow. You might as well used flash sight pictures. I find that Jeff Cooper's method is superior to point shooting for longer distances.
Liist 4 years ago
Liist, it's difficult in a one-minute vid to put a given technique into it's correct context. This vid was intended to show how quickly one can learn to shoot without sights, to a couple of guys who were curious about PSing. The QK shooting in the vid was taken only fifteen or twenty minutes after learning the method and we were still going slow.
wasatchdan 4 years ago
As the day progressed, we got faster and faster, and added in shooting on the run as well as other PSing techniques, such as Quick Fire, Fairbairn/Sykes, CAR, and others. We'd stopped filming by then, so no video of that.
wasatchdan 4 years ago
It's difficult to see exactly what we were doing in the vid, but I can assure you that QK, and flash sight are very different things. FS is sight-focused, QK is target focused. What QK does is to bridge the gap between sighted shooting and PSing, and it works even out to 20 yards with practice. All methods, from EQC retention shooting to sighted fire are all merely steps along the sight continuum. All have their place.
wasatchdan 4 years ago
I've been a Modern Technique shooter since 1989, and I'm very aware of Col. Cooper and his Shooting philosophy. I have great respect for what he did for the shooting community. Experience and force on force training have taught me both the strengths of MT, and it's very real limitations.
wasatchdan 4 years ago
Sorry if I sounded like I was trying to bash point shooting. I've also done quite a few drills of point shooting like firing from the hip at almost point blank range to reduce the chances of being disarmed and point shooting when the time does not allow.
I guess it's good to be versatile for certain situations, but I don't know, maybe Point Shooting isn't so bad if you've already mastered the Modern Technique.
Liist 4 years ago