'It saddens me to think that today in Rome the cross that is worshipped is not the Cross of our Saviour.' Pius XII, referring to the swastika. Additionally, when Hitler visited Rome, Priests and nuns were told to not engage in any of the festivities and both Pius XI and Pacelli left. The air in Rome made Pacelli sick apperantly! And that Mister Hitchens is how the Church celebrated a dictators birthday: it gave him the middle finger and proved yourself a liar. Source: wikipedia.
HAHA I love the "Hitler was an atheist" christian lie LMAO. Ever read Mein Kampf douche bags? It seems to me that he liked Jesus quiet alot actually :)
@tumbipanther Hitler was a pagan and Mein Khampf isn't taken seriously by hstorians as it was nothing but a propaganda piece, sort of like how atheists think we Christians don't take the concept of hell seriously.
@philipmarie1854 lol. It's his own biograpghy written by the man himself. He writes about his childhood, the lead up to WW1 and his early political agenda. And he also states what his future ambitions may behold. Believe me, Historians do infact take "Mein Khampf" or rather Mein Kampf very seriously when studying the persona of Hitler lol. You christians will try and twist and wriggle out of any FACT that is thrown at you, if it casts your cult in a negative light! GTFO
@tumbipanther Just a few of Hitlers quotes to show he indeed was a devout Christian
"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." "Their sword will become our plow, and from the tears of war the daily bread of future generations will grow." a (a direct reference to Micah 4:3).
@tumbipanther The direct opponent of National Socialism, Konrad Heiden observed that the content of Mein Kampf is essentially a political argument with other members of the Nazi Party who had appeared to be Hitler's friends, but whom he was actually denouncing in the book's content — sometimes by not even including references to them. Even Mussolini hated the book for being a piece of crap. Hitler's words were just said to have Christians go on his side but luckily, they weren't fooled.
@tumbipanther Hitler also killed Priests and Polish Catholics, banned the Church from teaching in Germany, tried kidnapping Pius XII and said: The German people has the solemn intention of living in peace and friendship with all civilized nations and powers... And I regard the maintenance of peace in Europe as especially desirable and at the same time secured, if France and Germany, on the basis of equal sharing of natural human rights, arrive at a real inner understanding... LIAR! This came
@philipmarie1854 And no, Hitler did not bann the Church in Germay, he just made sure they preached a pro Nazi agenda :) Yet another common lie Christians try to use. You are now just pulling shit out of your arse. Please stick to historical sources and FACTS!
@tumbipanther No, he did. Goring banned religious education, 600 Priests were executed in Poland, etc... to say otherwise makes you as bad as a holocaust denier because they deny thousands of innocent Jews were slaughtered. But Jews weren't the only ones slaughtered, so were Catholics, homosexuals, Protestants, etc... so shut up you idiotic holocaust denier.
@philipmarie1854 Once again where did i deny the Jewish Holocaust??? talking shit again mate. There is actually an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the FACT that there was indeed large scale genocide, commited against the jews of Europe. To say otherwise would be plain stupid... Your just repeating yourself and it's making you look extremely stupid. You have not put forward any hard evidence that Hitler was anything but a Christian, so you pull out insults... Good day.
@philipmarie1854 "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922
@philipmarie1854 Just because Hitler murdered priests does not mean he wasn't a Christian. Keep in mind that during this time Christianity was still somewhat divided into different forms of itself, such as the Protestants, Catholics etc.
@ArmyOfWalrus Yeah, you keep telling yourself that. Pius XII was certainly helping the Nazis when he ordered convents to open their doors to the Jews and when he kept them in his summer residence. He showed how much he loved Hitler when he didn't want to meet him when the latter came to Rome. Strauffenberg? Irena Sandler? General Franco whom I loathe? Max Kolbe? Hugh o Flaherty? Confessing Church? All nazi sympathizers and certainly didn't keep Jews in their homes and issue fake passports.
@philipmarie1854 So he didn't agree their particular beliefs. Hitler was still Christian. I'm not saying all Christians are like him, just like how Stalin doesn't represent all Atheists or how Bin Laden doesn't represent all Muslims. He says in his book he believed in God, so he was part of one of many sects related to Christianity. End of story.
@ArmyOfWalrus Glad you see that, something which Hitchens didn't. But he really wasn't Christian. I say this not because I don't think Chrisitan can't sin: Franco is proof of this. I'm just saying there is proof he was pagan.
@philipmarie1854 According to the Christian definition of sin, everyone has, and can "sin." Morality is subjective though. There is some evidence that suggests Hitler may have been Pagan, I'm just saying he wasn't Atheist.
@tumbipanther from a letter by Hitler to the French fascist Hervé and published in the Nazi Völkischer Beobachter on October 26, 1930 (Heiden, Der Fuehrer, p. 414).
And what does this all prove? Almost all Christians I saw say Hitler was a pagan; one atheist even said he was yet still insisted that he was Christian at the same time! Are the actions of Max Marie Kolbe, Irena Sandler, Pius XII, Stepinac and all the people who risked their lives to save the Jews and yet are forgotten to be
@philipmarie1854 "Almost all Christians I saw say Hitler was a pagan" Being the key sentence in the paragraph of drivle.. Do you see a conflict of interest here??? Since Christians are the ones trying to diss own Hitler maybe? Please go and study the subject for yourself, rather than just grabbing onto the un educated statements of Christians you saw.. Not exactly reliable sources at all. But hey, who needs facts when you have faith right?
@tumbipanther ignored? JUST because a sick bastard like Hitler was BAPTIZED AS A CHILD as Catholic yet did not practice his religion at all mean that the whole Church is responsible? Hey, agents in the US helped Ante Pavelic escape and yet America is still regarded as heroic? No, they were double agents. You insult not only Catholics who risked their lives to save other, you insult the Jews and people they saved by saying the actions of their saviours false. Your as bad as a holocaust denier.
@philipmarie1854 :) the exact responce i expected from you, when faced with overwheling evidence, you pull out the insults... And Hitler did actually practice his faith by going to church regularly with the families of his "elite". He celebrated every Easter and Christmas vigil. Truth hurts buddy, lying to yourself just proves that you are blinded by your own faith :)
@tumbipanther And instead of giving us evidence, you atheists just make stuff up, say we ar elying and again, give no proofs as to why we're lying. If I continued to 'debate with you', you'd say I am lying without any historical evidence. Goring banned Catholic education and Mussolini did the same, having the Pope protest. And despite how much you bitch and moan, Pius XII will always be a saviour of the Jews and you will always be a douchebag satisfied that you're some sort of saint.
@tumbipanther Instead of giving us reasons why our faith makes no sense, you say hey, Hitler was Christian, therefore all Christians are nazis! I can say that the French revolution killed 40,000, the american revolution kicked natives out of their homeland and unkindness is rampant yet you'll say 'but not all atheists are like that!' My point exactly. Hitler not only was not devout or Christian, he hated organized religion, so shut up and read a real book.
@philipmarie1854 Were did i say all Christians are Nazis??? Just pulling things out of thin air again i see... Do some study yourself bud, i did not deny that hitler did infact order the execution of prists, jews, homosexuals, gypsys, disabled people and political rivals (which is the reason why he ordered some prists executed). So don't go putting words into my mouth you little cretan and stick to the facts!
@philipmarie1854 "Sooner will a camel pass through a needle's eye than a great man be 'discovered' by an election." (direct reference to Mark 10:25).
"Thank the Lord, Germanic democracy means just this: that any old climber or moral slacker cannot rise by devious paths to govern his national comrades, but that, by the very greatness of the responsibility to be assumed, incompetents and weaklings are frightened of." But don't worry, they're just 1st hand accounts from Hitler...
OK, the Williams sisters are black, but they play tennis, and you cannot say that that is a black activity. This supports my contention that only white people play tennis.
There are no hospitals or orphanages built by the great humanitarian atheists in this world....most of them are from believers in the Judeo/Christian religion. The dumb arguement about churches and religious people as being cruel doesn't add up... atheists have no heart and don't care about humanity...this is why there are no hospitals, orphanages, or help to third world nations... that's taken care of by people who believe in God. Sorry you atheists just don't care about people.
@1stupormundi Actually, several hospitals, orphanages, shelters and so on have been made by atheists. We just can't say which ones because an Atheist doesn't convene with other atheists in a group, and therefore you can't say "This atheist group made a hospital" or anything like that. There are several humanitarian atheists that've put work into making humanitarian efforts and so on out of their own decency and regard for their fellow man. They also don't attribute their kindness to "the boss".
@1stupormundi I thought about describing the logical fallacy inherent in your comment - the difference in population of Christians to atheists, the problem of atheist organization and record-keeping inherent in its nature, the inherent fallacy of stereotype - but I decided it would be easier to change my moral character to reflect your belief, and to stop being a good person and caring about others.
@1stupormundi Tell that to Bill Gates who have donated billions to charity. Tell that to many scientists who work to find cures and medical therapies. They are all atheist. When a Christian organization does something for a good cause, they also pass out their Bibles and to convert people so their religion will become more powerful. This is not doing something for the sake of doing it. They have a hidden agenda.
Atheist communism exterminated 100 million people in the 20th century alone... What a crock to say that Joseph Stalin had a ready resovoir of fruitful minds... He secularized Russia, Banned Bibles, that's atheistic enough... You can't apologize for these athiest murderes.
@1stupormundi Islam would ban Christian Bibles as well and they aren't atheists. And some Islamists extremists in Egypt want to destroy the pyramids. "Communism" is a ideology. Stalin happened to be an atheist that acted as if "the state" is a God. That is a far cry from what an atheist is which is a rejection of any claim that God has revealed himself through human recorded holy books. A deist also is an atheist in this sense. Do you believe in Zeus? So that makes U a Commie?
Uh, Germany was about as close as a scientific society that existed among major powers. Certainly the USA was more religious and less educated than Germany was
@SUpersaiyajinjerkbag hahahahahaha, are you serious? Germany was highly and i mean highly religous during the time of Hitlers rise to power, a thousand years of war and killing and maining created this.
They had great scientists and scientific institutions, but all of that was under the power of highly religous people(or as history will tell you, highly bigotted people)
Well theres the fact Hoffmann was forced to not curb funding and support for the church by masses of protests by the public, and to be honest, i really cba trying to find all the documentries or the old books i have read over the years/at school (where i specifically studied religion and Nazi germany) right now lol. Being as its xmas tomorow and i plan to drink.
@philipmarie1854 cont'd As for Science being a religion as you say, that is impossible. Science cannot be a religion as religion requires worship and dogma, not to mention a figure or figures to worship. Science is no more and no less than a means for finding truth and knowledge. The most efficient means to date. It has no moral code or commandments. It bears neither enmity nor conditional love. No, science is just one part of how we choose to live. The others are as I have already said before.
@philipmarie1854 cont'd recognition or rewards. Then there's also the other major religions which have A LOT of problems on their own. How in the world can you reconcile yourself with all of them? Eventually, if the path of peace does lie with religion as you suggest, then one of them will have to reign supreme over the rest and become the one true religion. Is it yours? This is a fact that every single advocate of the same message as you will have to confront. The sooner the better. cont'd
@philipmarie1854 cont'd Christianity does have its moments of good though. I can never deny that. But you also can't deny that a large number of them, not all though (I know some genuinely good Christians), do it only because they are being told to or for fear of eternal punishment. Charity out of fear for the fires of hell or the need for the spotlight of admiration is empty and meaningless. If we give, it should be because we are truly moved to be compassionate towards others. Not for cont'd
@philipmarie1854 cont'd If we had a religion that focuses solely on peaceful means of existence and possess a certain kind of Rationality behind it without any illogical dogma, then I would be all for it. Take Buddhism for example. Not one word about killing those of other faiths, not one criticism about one's gender or choice of lifestyle and condemns atrocity in all forms. That's as far as I know at least. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not perfect, but it's one of the better choices. cont'd
@philipmarie1854 You're welcome. I always go for healthy debates whenever the opportunity presents itself. But I think your getting some things mixed up here. Although it is true that I am an atheist like Hitchens, I don't get so hung up in the past as others are. Maybe before I was, but then I realized that it was childish and counter-productive. What we should look to is the future. Now religion can be used for good, there's no doubt about that. But is it the best way? No. cont'd
Joseph Goebbel or something was excommunicated in 1931, years before Hitler even started to my knowledge but I may be wrong. That said, because one isn't excommunicated doesn't an the Church accepts your crimes. Recent findings in the Vatican show that Pius XII tried exorcising Hitler from a long distance (it didn't work))
@philipmarie1854 You wrote Recent findings in the Vatican show that Pius XII tried exorcising Hitler from a long distance (it didn't work))"
Are you trolling? Whether or not the pope tried exorcising Hitler, it couldn't work because there are no spirits to evict from a body. Couldn't be done if the Pope was standing on top Hitler's chest screaming at him in latin, so it certainly couldn't work from afar.
Cannot believe anyone in this day and age would make your comment. Too fun. Thank you.
@DoctorOfDisbelief Well mister doctor of disbelief, whether God exists or not still shows that Pius didn't like Hitler one bit. You say oyur having fun with me; know I also have fun with you atheists because I troll your videos all the flipping time. You can't believe people make such comments? You'd better believe because we've been saying such things for a zillion years, we've won billions of converts and we ain't gonna stop. Why can't you believe? Because atheism is supposedly smarter than
@DoctorOfDisbelief religious belief? As if atheism gives you a disposition that gives you a bigger brain because supposedly religious belief reatards intelligence. If you were speaking about scientology I'd say fine, that is a belief system that retards peoples bri=ains but Catholicism? Saints were amongst the smartest people ever and the Cath. faith, contrary to popular belief, requires that you study religion to see why it is plausible. It always held this belief and the Summa Theologica is
@DoctorOfDisbelief filled with this trope. And I know the case of Galileo, which is just one measly case of Church officials persecuting a man. Guess what? It apologized and pulled his works form the index in the 1700's.
People don't want freedom from religion, they want freedom OF religion. There have always been people who don't care about religion, today even more so because of the worldliness of the world and the mass media and yet what have you accomplished? Did you bring us world peace?
@philipmarie1854 "There have always been people who don't care about religion, today even more so because of the worldliness of the world and the mass media and yet what have you accomplished? Did you bring us world peace?"
I'm sorry, but what peace has religion brought? Did it bring the whole world under one banner of coexistence? Or did the various, illogical fallacies that all of you spout simply drive us apart even more? Secularism is what keeps the crazies at bay, not religion...
@champjklccmk What illogical fallacies? You mean the diffirent religions? For one thing, you must see which religions you are talking about because in the case of the Catholic Church, while it didn't see the validness of other religions, never said anything that these peoples should be killed. The Crusades for one thing as I said were a war, not against Islam but against a genuine threat, the saracens. Google the Crusades and the spin doctors if you're interested. Secondly, alot of the dissent
@champjklccmk agaisnt the RCC was made by groups who actively seperated THEMSELVES form it, such as the Russian Orth. church and protestantism. And while it is true that the RCC still has to bring world peace, it worked hard to fulfill it with its missions, and the works of the Popes, etc... governments may try to bring peace but ultimately, alot of them used methods which were bad, such as America's violent revolution and expelling of natives and its decades o racism.My point being that despite
@champjklccmk what you say, our religion at least didn't and never sought to take over the world, either by force or politically. Some Popes were rather heavy handed like Innocent III but not all of them and not every catholic agreed with their direction. That, and the fact that the aim of the Church is to bring peace to the world not by politics but by faith in Christ, nothing of which says to kill those who disagree with you. It'd take too long to refute alot of myths, owever, if you want to
@champjklccmk discuss it, I'd be willing. The governments may not bring peace on their own and never will but with help of the Church and its members, I believe we can. Atrocities can be commited by both sides but that doesn't make either one side completely invalid; the value of a good thing can't be judged by its abuse.
Besides, Christianity did bring peace and order, if not through the whole world but to alot pf places. It established the morals we so believe in today and when there was
@philipmarie1854 cont'd from candles to lightbulbs without any aid from the supernatural. The scientific method gave us medicine, knowledge, a future. Science has made our lives so much better, the way religion never could. But again, this is merely superficial. What I have stated, though true, is nonetheless just the shallow part of our stance. It has never been about which side produced more resluts, but rather, which side will ultimately lead us to a better world. One without wars cont'd
@champjklccmk Yes, which side will lead us to a better world? Both-ish. You see, science in and of itself can't lead society to peace, people can and what they believe in. Don't you see that people don't want science as a rleigion, they don't want it to lead their lvies, they want to use it to better their lives. We msut include everyone in society, especially those who are ignorant. And going against such arrogant morons as Stephen Frry and Hitchens, atheism will not and will never lead society
@champjklccmk to a better place. Few people want and ask for freedom from religion; they want freedom OF religion. If you want real freedom from religion, then the least you could do was take away lands owned by religious and the church, censor such works and bring devotion down to private worship, like how the French revolution, Napoleon and communism did. You'll say that these people only wanted power yet they maksed their lines with cheap concepts such as 'freedom' and 'power' and ended up
@champjklccmk much worse than the 'evil' governments they fought against. I doubt very much atheists want this but thats where their agenda falls. Atheism can spread no good because it has no morality. I don't think atheists are bad, just the philosophies stemming from it. So no, a world without religion is a world full of emptiness. Do we want to become democrats for the sake of becoming democrats? Hell, why not lock ourselves in a bottle, that way we'll have a democratic country by ourselves.
@champjklccmk We have faith in God (and Mary for Catholics too) because our religion is about peace. It doesn't seek to control land like Islam or Zionism, it only wants to convert people so that they may do good. It'd be good if when there comes a Catholic government again, there'd be freedom for all religions and not some of them like whats happened in Francos Spain, and its not like the Church is so 'unconservative' as to not accept freedom to practice other religions for non-catohlics. While
@champjklccmk Catholics would sin if they left the Church and while outside the Church there is no salvation (and this is a dogma of the faith), I see no wrong in permitting freedom to practice religion. It worked very well in the US, why not in Cathlic countries especially in this day and age? Would you live in a Catholic country is that happened?
As for wars, there will always be wars but we can prevent them. Had the crusades been fought with rubber chickens, catapults and pies, with no one
@champjklccmk getting killed at all, it'd still be a war and considering some of the other crusades, it'd still be wrong as it'd be gaining land which you don't deserve (for more on the crusades, google Listverse: the 8 crusades explained for a short read).
Well, whats your opinion? Sorry for talking so quickly but thanks for not being nasty whatsoever. You wouldn't believe how many insults and historical/theological/logically innacurate comments you get on you tube :-).
@champjklccmk trouble, the Church sought peaceful means when it was necessary, such as what happened between the Cathars and Innocent III, and Pope St. Leo and Attila the Hun. Even the Inquisition, which in my opinion is one of the greatest innovations of all time and far from being a bloodthirsty organization (all three of which killed less than 8000 at least, 10,000 at most. Though the killing was bad, it wasn't common. Imagine if there was an inquisition in Ireland today to root out all pedos
@philipmarie1854 Dude, you could've just PM'd me, it would've been a lot less hassle for you. Anyway, though you do make some valid points, I can't help but notice how hard you're trying to put a more positive light on your side. I agree on a lot of what you said, having witnessed many charitable acts done by religious folks. But one's judgement shouldn't be clouded by superficial acts of kindness or atrocities alike. In the last 5 centuries, Science has propelled our civilization cont'd
@champjklccmk Thx for being kind in your response. Superficial nothing, as defending people from slavery, saving their lives and their souls from hell, educating them and bringing them up to do good is far from being superficial. Science may have given us resources and propelled society even more by them but it isn't the sol reason. More people have died with the use of moder weaponry than before yet we don't call science bad at all. Science for men, not vice versa. 2nd, you must note what the
@champjklccmk propellation of society is. In my opinion, what makes a society good is not whether it is a democracy or a monarchy as both of these systems can be good, but how it serves its people and how they apply their morals. If you have a society like N. Korea where ignorance, hunger and brainwashing is rampant, the country ain't doing its people any good; if you have a society like the Aztecs and Romans where violence and sex was rampant, the people ain't serving each other. There will al-
@champjklccmk ways be outcasts and sore thumbs in societies, with immoral people and criminals, but if just laws are upheld I think you'd have a stable society. Now the Church did have a stable society, especially in the middle ages and was far from being a dictatorship. There certainly were tyrants like Louis XIV and Isabella II and incompetent kings like John II but there were also good ones like Louis IX who cared deeply for his people and in a sense Isabella II. The inquisiton rooted out
@champjklccmk heresy from within its walls though it left public Protestants and Jews alone. Though the killing was excessive (even though to be fair, in the case of the Port. and Spanish Inq. it was done by the state and the Rom. ones were not under catholic dogma). And while public worship of Protestantism was illegal in the papal states (not surprsing the harm it did to the Church), private worship wasn't and Judaism was legal in public.
@philipmarie1854 cont'd or pain or suffering. Religion can never give us that! Why? How can it? Putting aside that there are many religions, all of whom their members believe to be the one true religion, there are even many variations of these religions. And within these variations, not everyone agree on the same things. You put faith on things that can't be tested, can't be seen and can't be proven. In the end, all you have to go on is the conviction that you're faith is right. Consider cont'd
@champjklccmk What I really see as the biggest atrocity commited by the Church was, not the killing of Jews as the Church never allowed that and Siants fought agaisnt it, but the alienation of Jews from other people. The council of Lateran made it so that Jews and Muslims had to wear badges to distinguish them from Christians. While the intent was for heresy not to spread and not anti-semitism, not allowing the Jews to have some jobs was far too excessive. Yes, it wasn't under Christian dogma
@champjklccmk but was a law promulagated by the Vatican but still its too excessive. I can see the reason why it was done, especially to the Muslims at that time (no offense to Muslims today) but for Christian rulers to expel them form their lands and confiscate their properties is a big no no. To be fair, alot of Saints and the Popes themselves condemned all this rabid anti-semitism and forbade forced conversion (amongst them Vincent Ferrer. Check the book Vincent Ferrer and the Kings Jews) and
@champjklccmk when WWII came, Catholics and the Pope proved themselves to really care for them despite their diffirences and that they didn't want war. And this all coming from a person who really disagrees with Judaism which is diffirent from the old one as night and day and who is very anti-zionist because zionism has an evil agenda.
@philipmarie1854 cont'd for a second please the implications of this. How can you possibly make rational decisions when you base it solely on personal opinion and religious doctrine? The bible tells you to stone gays while the Koran tells you to slay infidels. None of those are rational and yet if you were truly a follower of any of these teachings, you wouldn't even hesitate to do them. How can something so grounded in flawed reason even begin to bring world peace? It can't. Our side cont'd
@philipmarie1854 cont'd on the other hand base everything on Reason. There's no danger in us comitting genocide based on a difference in race, ethnicity or religion. We question everything and never follow blindly. To us there are no absolutes and things can be changed based on reason, facts and data. We would never kill on the decisions of leaders, we would never invade on the whim of one or more persons. We never close our minds on a subject simply because we disagree with it. To us cont'd
@philipmarie1854 cont'd everything is up for debate, nothing is immune to scrutiny. This does not only apply on religion mind you. We are against everything illogical, everything unreasonable, everything that poses as on the side of good but really is nothing more than a group of bullies. To us, everyone is equal. No one is above, no one is beneath. There is no room for emotion or personal opinion when making decisions. Only cold, calculating Reason.
@DoctorOfDisbelief Does belief make you anti-humanist? Is science incompatible with religion? Not according to the Catholic faith, and this coming from an ultra conservative Cath., the type you people despise the most.
Scholars may study your antireligious works but culturally, atheism is invisible. Science may make discoveries but it isn't an end to itself: science for men not men for science. Tell me sir, what has lukewarmness and anti-religion changed for the better? What is goodness BTW?
@philipmarie1854 BTW, what was it again that caused people to slaughter each other because they were convinced that an invisible, unseen, but ferverently worshipped figure had their backs? Yes, that's right... fill in the blanks now... Science is incompatible with Religion, I don't CARE what the catholic church says... You rely on faith, while we rely on reason and logic and the ability of humans to surpass their natural genetic origin that urges them to lose their minds...
@champjklccmk How many people slaughtered each other because they thought their own way of doing things was the good way, such the French revolution, communism, Napoleon, the Iraq and Vietnam wars? Wasn't it France that closed so many religious institutions in the first place? What genetic origin urges you to lose your mind and who said we rely on faith without the use of reason? To say we are unreasonable people and who regard science and what other non-religious did as bad is preposterous.
ravings worthy of Fred Phelps, Really, if religion was wiped out by war it'd be a good thing? People tried doing that for the last hundred years and they failed. They even kidnapped the Pope and they STILL failed, partly because Pius VII was rather saintly. Neither will you destroy the moral integrity of alot of Catholics and as Pius X said, we will always be there to baptize you all. May the truimph of the Immaculate Heart come; maybe we won't have people like Salazar giving us a bad name (BTW
I don't think that all atheists or even the majority of them are evil. You'll be hard pressed to find a TRADITIONALIST Catholic who thinks everyone who is not Catholic is evil and even if you were to, explaining to him his logical fallacy can and does change his mind. He won't change his ideas about the faith but when was our faith about labelling others evil?
I'll sat it though that Hitchens is an outright jerk. I was surprized how calm he was but his comments on religion and the religious are
and it doesn't mean that it was always that way in the past. Constanine made Christianity the state religion yet everyone was free to have his own religion. In Catholic countries which were run by the Pope, people could have their own religion though they weren't allowed to preach it in public, with Catholicism being a state religion and all though to be fair, Judaism was allowed to build synagogues. Agree to disagree but man, be fair about it. I'm a hardcore and ultra-conservative Catholic yet
SOME religions are man made. In fact, the majority of the but that doesn't mean all of them are. If Jesus is God, it would prove that the Catholic Church is the one true religion because He found it. Religion doesn't cause killing, it is simply intolerance. The French revolution was atheist and it killed 40,000 people 'for freedom'. The thing is, we will always disagree on whose beliefs are right, just'this doesn't mean that it is a violent disagreement, it doesn't mean we can't live in peace
with saving thousands of Jews. As for the birthday bit about Hitler, google Archbishop Orsenigo Celebrates Hitler’s Birthday and click the first link in RJ's blog. Besides, what do you expect the Pope to do, lash out at Mussolini and risk persecution of Catholics? Hell, Schneider was a 'nazi' who saved thousands of Jews and he didn't speak out against the Nazis!!! Obvius really.
the Catholic faith that made them do such atrocities but their own misguided beliefs and their pride. I agreee with Hitchens that atheism wasn't responsible for all those atrocities. However, SOME philosophies stemming from atheism can and still do evil in the world such as communism, anarchism and yes, fascism, because the Church only made an agreement with Mussolini to give freedom to the Church. No Cath. with deep religious beliefs would support Mussolini and in fact, the Church is credited
there as the off a Pope isn't ven bad: he's the leder of Christianity. Sure there were corrupt Popes but therew were also good ones. There were god people like Sts John Bosco, Francis Xavier, Ignatiusof Loyola, Teresa of Avila and the Blessed Mother Herself but there were also bad ones like Isabella of Spain, Ante-Pavelic and Mussolini who wasn't even Catholic, just pretending to be one. Does the evil which these three did outweigh the good influence which the other left? No, because it wasn't
Discarding of reason over faith nothing. The Church may not have allowed heresy to grow but it never allowed forced conversion and it certianly didn't teach that if you listen to the name of Jesus the first time, you HAVE to belief. There are reasons why Christianity is plausible and the Church always supported the right for one to study his Cath. faith if only to destroy doubts. Hell, the Summa Theologica is made of this.
While Catholics certaily were allied under the Pope, they did no wrong
The lies, distortions, historical revisions and fallacies of these militant atheists are so obvious only the willfully ignorant and blind would fail to see them. Atheism can't be responsible for atrocities. Of course not. Religion is responsible for evil, thus if evil is committed it is because of religion. This circular reasoning thus redefines atheist atrocities as religious; so the USSR, China, post revolutionary France, Stalin, Mao, etc become religious. How rational.
Yes Hitchens, it is secularism, it is just not YOUR conception of Secularism, just like the Inquisition isn't most modern Christian's conception of Christianity. The Torture of the Inquisition bore far more of a resemblance to pagan Rome's tactics of torture, including against Christians, than to any thing that occurred in the Early church. Let's blame Pagan Rome for that.
Read 1 Samuel 8 Monarchy is Idolatry in the Christian tradition, but it is inevitable to atheistic collectivism..
The point is that dogmatism is the problem. Yes you might get an atheistic dogmatism running in the way that Soviet Russia had or you might not as modern Sweden hasn't (at least yet) even though they are 80% atheistic. What you can't have is a dogma free religious state. Thats the point. Secularism is by no means a guarantee of an undogmatic, freethinking and forward looking society but I'm afraid it is a necessary prerequisite.
I disagree with the dichotomy of "secular" and "religious" society. There is also Non-sectarian society, which I believe was the original intent of the founders.
To understand the difference consider the gap between the Jurisprudence of Justice Hugo Black on the Establishment Clause (Secularism) and that of Justice William Rehnquist (Non-sectarianism).
Oh excuse me, I didn't see you were Finnish, I was discussing American Jurisprudence.
The difference here is between government not favoring one religion over another (Non-Sectarianism) and government completely alienating religion IN GENERAL.
Every day, the children in Nazi germany recited a prayer of allegiance to "Adolf Hitler, Unser Gott" - meaning our god. This was not christianity. Hitler occasionally mentions in his speeches that he considered himself a christian...was it the drugs or was he nuts, since these are not compatible. It is legit to attack some practices of the catholic priests who helped former Nazis escape at the end of the war. Some may have believed it is their duty to help all people no matter what- I disagree
@notdatkindacoke Bravo for intellectual dishonesty worthy of a priest or mullah or rabbi! German school children never called him a god or God. They PRAISED God for giving them Hitler! You're the worst kind of debater, sprinkling your arguments with lies and deception. You must be the type who would help the priest diddle the little boys then call the boys the lairs! Or even worse, you're a Nazi apologist.
@notdatkindacoke "Adolf Hitler, Unser Gott" may be a misquote or misinterpretation. Unser means 'ours', but Unter means 'under'. It would make more sense. Just as the United States is 'our nation under god', they could have been saying 'Adolf Hitler under god'. Mind you, I am not a historian, nor an expert on language. I thought what you said was interesting, and looked it up.
@MrJaredJammer You are the one in denial. Please read an honest account of history before posting again to avoid exposing the depth of your (voluntary?) ignorance. Every lie you revolting, immoral bible-bashes have pushed concerning atheism being a force for ill in the world have been easily debunked again and again. There remains only two reasons or causes for faith now; voluntary ignorance or indoctrination; ignoring reality, or having been denied a chance to experience & learn about reality.
I think this bloke's a bit of a dickhead. His politics are too cynical about the progressive Left & so serve to perpetuate apathy in the face of the systemic injustice that is neo-liberal/neo-conservative capitalism. Nevertheless, he could not be more right about the dire need for secularism in the face of a history full of religion's wrongdoing & atrocities. The day the last God-botherer fades to insignificance will represent the greatest single step forward in human history & development yet.
@Tuathalful As a skeptic, one cannot have it both ways. You applaud this man for questioning the blind faith of religious people, but you claim he is "too cynical" when it comes to leftist/progressive policies. Do you not understand the irony in what you are saying? Why are the beliefs of the political left (your beliefs - and mine too I might add) exempt from scrutiny? The historical evidence suggests that the ideologies of the left are just as easily perverted by tyrants as those of the right
@mrjaredjammer if life is meaningless and nothing we do matters than the only thing that matters is what we do. Right now, this moment, this day. Atheism isn't a group of faith. It's individuals that are seperate, the believe what they want. We aren't a group that strives for a single goal.
@MrJaredJammer You have confused value with meaning. They are not interchangable words. The beer I buy has value but no meaning. Please reword your premise.
The religious believe they will be rewarded with an eternity of self-serving pleasure in reward for blind faith.
Knowing this, how can anyone be surprised at how destructive theism has been throughout history?
Theist's denialism doesn't erase their bloody history
This video and all of the people here pointing the finger at one another are all missing the point! You don't need an excuse to do evil! In fact, blaming people's evil acts on what they believe or don't believe simply excuses those acts and denies those people responsibility for their own actions.
@plptous You're babbling. Quoting something doesn't make it true; contemplating and validating it does. And that second to last line is patently wrong. No conception is ever greater than its conceptor? What about superman? Isn't he greater than his comic artist conceptors?
Also, check into modern scientific theories on the big bang, vacuum fluctuation energy, abiogenesis, and evolution. Once you fully understand these scientific facts, you will see how we can exist without a god.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: It is trueto say that relgions such as Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism do a very poor job in combatting racism. They may even promote it as in the case of Apartheid South Africa, Zionist Israel and the Hindu class system. However, this does not make atheism a morally superior ideology as Hitchens himself defends the illigal war against Iraq. Islam is the only religion that is effective in combatting racism. Evidence:
@Invesigator No, it does not make atheism a morally superior ideology, because its not an ideology. It is a position that there is no evidence for believing in a magic man in the sky. It has no position about morals, ethics or evolution. Only ignorance.
@TRUNDLETHOR Who or what EXACTLY does Hitchens seek power from? Merely making an accusation has no weight. You must cite examples or show evidence of his power seeking.
BTW, I think you're religious and I'm damn certain you're not a freethinker. I'm willing to bet you're one of those Christian pretenders who claims to be atheist in order to lie.
Hitler was no Darwinist as he favoured the theory of Lamarck and he was barely an atheist as he believed in 'Providence'. Sure, he might've renounced his Christianity before the end but that doesn't automatically make one an atheist. It's Martin Luther's influence on Hitler that inspired his hatred for the Jews. Christian influences made him who he was. No-one can deny that. No-one can deny his followers were Christian. No-one can deny Hitler's alliance with the Church.
@Grendo147 My dad helped kill some of those soldiers during the war. He even has one of the SS patches torn from one dead soldier as a trophy. He said they fought well but, not as they expected.
shoutlifedotcom/theth0ughtpr0v0ker GOD works in mysterious ways... GOD's mysterious code in that word and name =26 G7 O15 D4 using just simple alphanumerics there is no coincidence that there is that many letters in the English alphabet and letters make words we should trust GOD's word that name can be assured don't forget oh yeah JESUS code =74 the first and last numbers of GOD something is 100% for sure 2nd verse 'Good News' sounds better in song love!!!
The fact that we cannot provide definite proof doesn't mean we have an illogical belief - this is solely because the onus of proof is on YOU, since it is ridiculous to assume we'd be able to disprove "God exists" just as it would be ridiculous to assume we can disprove "Unicorns exists". The onus of proof is on you, else we'd have to be agnostic about EVERY THOUGHT ANYONE COULD EVER THINK OF.
So prove to me God exists, as the burden of proof isn't on me.
Wow, you just retype what you said before. You haven't even put a braincell of thought to understand how stupid, irrational, and logically silly your view is.
Also, let me add, because I know you are going to say this: "NOT BELIEVING IN GOD WITHOUT PROOF IS STUPID"
The onus of proof is on you, it would be ridiculous for you to expect me to create proof for every negative you can think of. Imagine if I told you to prove that an invisible unicorn doesn't exist on Mars. Now I hope you understand how stupid a question like "Prove God doesn't exist" is.
Do you realize how silly it is to be agnostic about anything that _might_ exist? Are you agnostic about unicorns? Leprechauns? It is stupid to be agnostic about things that are unfalsifiable (like God) because we won't ever have the tools to prove or disprove it. That is why we are atheist. "Does God exist" is a meaningless question like "What is the color of Jealousy". We cannot prove either one, so it is irrelevant.
@TRUNDLETHOR By the way, you don't even understand the word atheism - it comes from Greek and means 'without god." It does not mean disbelief. Get an education before you embarrass yourself further.
@TRUNDLETHOR The assumption is made by you and those who think there is a god. We don't have any assumption. We don't assume he doesn't exist, there is no evidence that he does, yet you actively believe in something with no evidence. That is a very weak position. Sanctimonious def: hypocritically pious or devout. That is specifically a religious term (though it can be used otherwise). How appropriate to be used by a sanctimonious believer. Ignorance is assuming there is a god without evidence.
I find your strawman hilarious "atheists believe putting water on dirt gives life!"
If God cannot be detected, then God is meaningless. Not to mention that believing in the Bible as a historical piece of history, or an accurate book on science is completely moronic.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: Although it is possible for racists and fascists to be so-called Christians, they are adhere to atheist, Darwinistic doctrines. Hitler was more an atheist so-social darwinist than a Christian.
@Invesigator You need to do a little thinking with your investigating. The people who did all the killing of millions of Jewish people were christian germans. Hitler could have been Satan himself, and it wouldn't change the fact that the german people did the killing. German soldiers and civilians. The nazi's wore the symbol "gott mit uns" which is "God with Us" on their belt-buckles. So much for your theory.
The Nazis did not just put it on the belts. They also put it in the prussian flag and coat of arms. Hitler personally established roman catholicism as state religion in Germany, sponsored mandatory religion class in public schools and has been a member of the catholic church his entire life. His tax records, which are available at the Munich archives, show that he always payed his church tax. So Hitler was either a christian or the most catholic atheist who ever lived.
@DoctorOfDisbelief Hitler may have been born an Christian. However, in practice he behaved more like a social-darwinist which itself is a sub-ideology of atheist evolution theory. The nazi's may have worn a symbol that said "gott mit uns" but they did not believe it.
Also remember that national-socialism is, contrary to popular belief, not so different from international-socialism which is communism. And we know how many people got killed through that atheist ideology.
@DoctorOfDisbelief Bravo. It never ceases to amaze me, the level of ignorance on the theist side of the argument To quote the great Hitchens himself when speaking to Hannity...
"Forgive me for saying, but you strike me as someone who's never heard a single argument against their position ever."
If that isnt verbatim then I apologise for the inaccuracy, if it is..I apologise for being such a Hitchens geek.
@Invesigator Ad Hominem, plain and simple. Your argument is bullshit and an obvious logical fallacy. There is nothing inherent in atheism or the work Darwin did which calls the members to violence or oppression.
This debate of "which group has the worst historical figures, the theists or the atheists?" is the biggest fucking waste of time. It's all AD HOMINEM against the atheists, BUT there IS violence and slavery in scripture, so EVIL IS INHERENT IN ABRAHAMIC MONOTHEISM.
@Oozazabanya I am not denying that Christiany , Judaism and Hinduism do a very poor job in combatting racism. In many instances they even condone it. However, atheists can be both immoral AND racist. Iraq and Afghanistan have been invaded and millions of their populations killed by atheist, godless, Western troops. The majority of wars are not started by religion, they're started by europeans. Even Mr. Hitchens, who is an atheist, supports the illigal and genocidal war against in Iraq.
@Invesigator Read my comment again, read it VERY CLOSELY PLEASE, I BEG YOU!
This is all Ad Hominem, look it up. It serves as no evidence for or against the concept of theism or atheism. You can only use the ACTUAL scripture/source material to argue for or against religions, not the religious figures in history, or prophets, or disciples. You cannot use atheists as evidence for or against the concept of atheism, plain and simple. Atheism does not dictate violence, however some religions do.
@Oozazabanya If atheism does not dictate violence, why did atheist communists kill around millions of innocent people when they ruled Russia? If atheism does not dictate violence, why did atheist Britain and ahteist Denmark join the illigal occupation of Iraq?
@Invesigator This is getting really old man, Ad Hominem is a fucking logical fallacy, plain and simple.
The definition of atheism, is not believing in any theistic deity/god. THAT'S ALL
There is no call to violence, slavery, or racism in that definition is there?
End of the argument, fucking look up ad hominem, get some critical thinking skills, and a fucking education. You are so brainless it's going to lower my IQ explaining the same thing over and over again to you.
@Invesigator Just look at your comment...you know what your comment is, a TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE of AD HOMINEM. I've said it to you a million times already...you cannot discredit an argument based on the actions of the speaker. No you don't even have to look it up, it's right here in my comment. It means that I can call you a fuckhead, which you DEFINITELY ARE, over and over again, but it has nothing to do with atheism. Atheism doesn't force me to call you a fuckhead, I say it because you are one!
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tumbipanther 3 weeks ago
'It saddens me to think that today in Rome the cross that is worshipped is not the Cross of our Saviour.' Pius XII, referring to the swastika. Additionally, when Hitler visited Rome, Priests and nuns were told to not engage in any of the festivities and both Pius XI and Pacelli left. The air in Rome made Pacelli sick apperantly! And that Mister Hitchens is how the Church celebrated a dictators birthday: it gave him the middle finger and proved yourself a liar. Source: wikipedia.
philipmarie1854 3 weeks ago
Hitchslap'd.
TheBeardedTrombonist 1 month ago
I love Hitch. I can just watch him speak and laugh with excitement that someone as intelligent as him is so eloquently defending the truth
marsjacobvolta 2 months ago
@marsjacobvolta Was I'm afraid, RIP you glorious harbinger of truth.
RPSM101 2 months ago
@marsjacobvolta Pity he lied on Hitler's birthday.
philipmarie1854 3 weeks ago
RIP the man was and still is a legend
gourmander 2 months ago
HAHA I love the "Hitler was an atheist" christian lie LMAO. Ever read Mein Kampf douche bags? It seems to me that he liked Jesus quiet alot actually :)
tumbipanther 2 months ago 6
@tumbipanther Hitler was a pagan and Mein Khampf isn't taken seriously by hstorians as it was nothing but a propaganda piece, sort of like how atheists think we Christians don't take the concept of hell seriously.
philipmarie1854 3 weeks ago
@philipmarie1854 lol. It's his own biograpghy written by the man himself. He writes about his childhood, the lead up to WW1 and his early political agenda. And he also states what his future ambitions may behold. Believe me, Historians do infact take "Mein Khampf" or rather Mein Kampf very seriously when studying the persona of Hitler lol. You christians will try and twist and wriggle out of any FACT that is thrown at you, if it casts your cult in a negative light! GTFO
tumbipanther 3 weeks ago
@tumbipanther Just a few of Hitlers quotes to show he indeed was a devout Christian
"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." "Their sword will become our plow, and from the tears of war the daily bread of future generations will grow." a (a direct reference to Micah 4:3).
tumbipanther 3 weeks ago
@tumbipanther The direct opponent of National Socialism, Konrad Heiden observed that the content of Mein Kampf is essentially a political argument with other members of the Nazi Party who had appeared to be Hitler's friends, but whom he was actually denouncing in the book's content — sometimes by not even including references to them. Even Mussolini hated the book for being a piece of crap. Hitler's words were just said to have Christians go on his side but luckily, they weren't fooled.
philipmarie1854 3 weeks ago
@philipmarie1854 You and all the world can hate the book, but its still a valuable first hand source lol. Personal opinion is not relevant at all.
tumbipanther 3 weeks ago
@tumbipanther Hitler also killed Priests and Polish Catholics, banned the Church from teaching in Germany, tried kidnapping Pius XII and said: The German people has the solemn intention of living in peace and friendship with all civilized nations and powers... And I regard the maintenance of peace in Europe as especially desirable and at the same time secured, if France and Germany, on the basis of equal sharing of natural human rights, arrive at a real inner understanding... LIAR! This came
philipmarie1854 3 weeks ago
@philipmarie1854 And no, Hitler did not bann the Church in Germay, he just made sure they preached a pro Nazi agenda :) Yet another common lie Christians try to use. You are now just pulling shit out of your arse. Please stick to historical sources and FACTS!
tumbipanther 3 weeks ago
@tumbipanther No, he did. Goring banned religious education, 600 Priests were executed in Poland, etc... to say otherwise makes you as bad as a holocaust denier because they deny thousands of innocent Jews were slaughtered. But Jews weren't the only ones slaughtered, so were Catholics, homosexuals, Protestants, etc... so shut up you idiotic holocaust denier.
philipmarie1854 3 weeks ago
@philipmarie1854 Once again where did i deny the Jewish Holocaust??? talking shit again mate. There is actually an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the FACT that there was indeed large scale genocide, commited against the jews of Europe. To say otherwise would be plain stupid... Your just repeating yourself and it's making you look extremely stupid. You have not put forward any hard evidence that Hitler was anything but a Christian, so you pull out insults... Good day.
tumbipanther 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@philipmarie1854 "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922
tumbipanther 3 weeks ago
@tumbipanther Sounds paegan/Atheist too me right...
tumbipanther 3 weeks ago
@philipmarie1854 Just because Hitler murdered priests does not mean he wasn't a Christian. Keep in mind that during this time Christianity was still somewhat divided into different forms of itself, such as the Protestants, Catholics etc.
ArmyOfWalrus 2 days ago
@ArmyOfWalrus Yeah, you keep telling yourself that. Pius XII was certainly helping the Nazis when he ordered convents to open their doors to the Jews and when he kept them in his summer residence. He showed how much he loved Hitler when he didn't want to meet him when the latter came to Rome. Strauffenberg? Irena Sandler? General Franco whom I loathe? Max Kolbe? Hugh o Flaherty? Confessing Church? All nazi sympathizers and certainly didn't keep Jews in their homes and issue fake passports.
philipmarie1854 2 days ago
@philipmarie1854 So he didn't agree their particular beliefs. Hitler was still Christian. I'm not saying all Christians are like him, just like how Stalin doesn't represent all Atheists or how Bin Laden doesn't represent all Muslims. He says in his book he believed in God, so he was part of one of many sects related to Christianity. End of story.
ArmyOfWalrus 2 days ago
@ArmyOfWalrus Glad you see that, something which Hitchens didn't. But he really wasn't Christian. I say this not because I don't think Chrisitan can't sin: Franco is proof of this. I'm just saying there is proof he was pagan.
philipmarie1854 2 days ago
@philipmarie1854 According to the Christian definition of sin, everyone has, and can "sin." Morality is subjective though. There is some evidence that suggests Hitler may have been Pagan, I'm just saying he wasn't Atheist.
ArmyOfWalrus 2 days ago
@ArmyOfWalrus Never said that Hitler was an atheist.
philipmarie1854 2 days ago
@tumbipanther from a letter by Hitler to the French fascist Hervé and published in the Nazi Völkischer Beobachter on October 26, 1930 (Heiden, Der Fuehrer, p. 414).
And what does this all prove? Almost all Christians I saw say Hitler was a pagan; one atheist even said he was yet still insisted that he was Christian at the same time! Are the actions of Max Marie Kolbe, Irena Sandler, Pius XII, Stepinac and all the people who risked their lives to save the Jews and yet are forgotten to be
philipmarie1854 3 weeks ago
@philipmarie1854 "Almost all Christians I saw say Hitler was a pagan" Being the key sentence in the paragraph of drivle.. Do you see a conflict of interest here??? Since Christians are the ones trying to diss own Hitler maybe? Please go and study the subject for yourself, rather than just grabbing onto the un educated statements of Christians you saw.. Not exactly reliable sources at all. But hey, who needs facts when you have faith right?
tumbipanther 3 weeks ago
@tumbipanther Faith makes people good, just as love makes all things easy. We didn't disown Hitler, he disowned us first ;-)
philipmarie1854 3 weeks ago
@tumbipanther ignored? JUST because a sick bastard like Hitler was BAPTIZED AS A CHILD as Catholic yet did not practice his religion at all mean that the whole Church is responsible? Hey, agents in the US helped Ante Pavelic escape and yet America is still regarded as heroic? No, they were double agents. You insult not only Catholics who risked their lives to save other, you insult the Jews and people they saved by saying the actions of their saviours false. Your as bad as a holocaust denier.
philipmarie1854 3 weeks ago
@philipmarie1854 :) the exact responce i expected from you, when faced with overwheling evidence, you pull out the insults... And Hitler did actually practice his faith by going to church regularly with the families of his "elite". He celebrated every Easter and Christmas vigil. Truth hurts buddy, lying to yourself just proves that you are blinded by your own faith :)
tumbipanther 3 weeks ago
@tumbipanther And instead of giving us evidence, you atheists just make stuff up, say we ar elying and again, give no proofs as to why we're lying. If I continued to 'debate with you', you'd say I am lying without any historical evidence. Goring banned Catholic education and Mussolini did the same, having the Pope protest. And despite how much you bitch and moan, Pius XII will always be a saviour of the Jews and you will always be a douchebag satisfied that you're some sort of saint.
philipmarie1854 3 weeks ago
@tumbipanther Instead of giving us reasons why our faith makes no sense, you say hey, Hitler was Christian, therefore all Christians are nazis! I can say that the French revolution killed 40,000, the american revolution kicked natives out of their homeland and unkindness is rampant yet you'll say 'but not all atheists are like that!' My point exactly. Hitler not only was not devout or Christian, he hated organized religion, so shut up and read a real book.
philipmarie1854 3 weeks ago
@philipmarie1854 Were did i say all Christians are Nazis??? Just pulling things out of thin air again i see... Do some study yourself bud, i did not deny that hitler did infact order the execution of prists, jews, homosexuals, gypsys, disabled people and political rivals (which is the reason why he ordered some prists executed). So don't go putting words into my mouth you little cretan and stick to the facts!
tumbipanther 3 weeks ago
@philipmarie1854 "Sooner will a camel pass through a needle's eye than a great man be 'discovered' by an election." (direct reference to Mark 10:25).
"Thank the Lord, Germanic democracy means just this: that any old climber or moral slacker cannot rise by devious paths to govern his national comrades, but that, by the very greatness of the responsibility to be assumed, incompetents and weaklings are frightened of." But don't worry, they're just 1st hand accounts from Hitler...
tumbipanther 3 weeks ago
@tumbipanther I also, as a German atheist find calling Hitler an atheist incredibly offensive for several reasons. Thank you for pointing that out!
moorg745 4 days ago
Damn, I'm from Croatia.
yannbane 2 months ago
OK, the Williams sisters are black, but they play tennis, and you cannot say that that is a black activity. This supports my contention that only white people play tennis.
badmuthahubbard 2 months ago
R.I.P.
natyuotube 2 months ago
There are no hospitals or orphanages built by the great humanitarian atheists in this world....most of them are from believers in the Judeo/Christian religion. The dumb arguement about churches and religious people as being cruel doesn't add up... atheists have no heart and don't care about humanity...this is why there are no hospitals, orphanages, or help to third world nations... that's taken care of by people who believe in God. Sorry you atheists just don't care about people.
1stupormundi 2 months ago
@1stupormundi Actually, several hospitals, orphanages, shelters and so on have been made by atheists. We just can't say which ones because an Atheist doesn't convene with other atheists in a group, and therefore you can't say "This atheist group made a hospital" or anything like that. There are several humanitarian atheists that've put work into making humanitarian efforts and so on out of their own decency and regard for their fellow man. They also don't attribute their kindness to "the boss".
VenomShock 2 months ago 8
@1stupormundi Reddit's r/atheism group just donated a bit over 200,000$ to Medicines sans Frontiers. I'd say they care more than you think.
Totalkef 2 months ago
@1stupormundi
Care to back up your statement or are you just another dumb Christian who thinks your religion makes you special? I suspect it'll be the latter.
UnknownUserName4267 2 months ago
@1stupormundi I thought about describing the logical fallacy inherent in your comment - the difference in population of Christians to atheists, the problem of atheist organization and record-keeping inherent in its nature, the inherent fallacy of stereotype - but I decided it would be easier to change my moral character to reflect your belief, and to stop being a good person and caring about others.
nocturnezero 2 months ago
@1stupormundi Must be trollin.
MitchofSmeg 2 months ago
@1stupormundi Tell that to Bill Gates who have donated billions to charity. Tell that to many scientists who work to find cures and medical therapies. They are all atheist. When a Christian organization does something for a good cause, they also pass out their Bibles and to convert people so their religion will become more powerful. This is not doing something for the sake of doing it. They have a hidden agenda.
Fishqueen1972 1 month ago
Atheist communism exterminated 100 million people in the 20th century alone... What a crock to say that Joseph Stalin had a ready resovoir of fruitful minds... He secularized Russia, Banned Bibles, that's atheistic enough... You can't apologize for these athiest murderes.
1stupormundi 2 months ago
@1stupormundi Why didn't the Premiers that came after Stalin commit the same Atrocities? Maybe Stalin was a Egotistical, Paranoid Dictator?
wowamonn 2 months ago
@1stupormundi Islam would ban Christian Bibles as well and they aren't atheists. And some Islamists extremists in Egypt want to destroy the pyramids. "Communism" is a ideology. Stalin happened to be an atheist that acted as if "the state" is a God. That is a far cry from what an atheist is which is a rejection of any claim that God has revealed himself through human recorded holy books. A deist also is an atheist in this sense. Do you believe in Zeus? So that makes U a Commie?
Fishqueen1972 1 month ago
I know for a fact Custer want every last Indian wipeout. He was a Christian too.
MrButtlettuce 3 months ago
Did native americans face a genocidal attack on their people?
MrButtlettuce 3 months ago
Uh, Germany was about as close as a scientific society that existed among major powers. Certainly the USA was more religious and less educated than Germany was
SUpersaiyajinjerkbag 3 months ago
@SUpersaiyajinjerkbag hahahahahaha, are you serious? Germany was highly and i mean highly religous during the time of Hitlers rise to power, a thousand years of war and killing and maining created this.
They had great scientists and scientific institutions, but all of that was under the power of highly religous people(or as history will tell you, highly bigotted people)
MitchofSmeg 2 months ago
@MitchofSmeg
do u have a cite? german efficiency is not achieved by christians, after all
SUpersaiyajinjerkbag 2 months ago
@SUpersaiyajinjerkbag
Well theres the fact Hoffmann was forced to not curb funding and support for the church by masses of protests by the public, and to be honest, i really cba trying to find all the documentries or the old books i have read over the years/at school (where i specifically studied religion and Nazi germany) right now lol. Being as its xmas tomorow and i plan to drink.
MitchofSmeg 2 months ago
I don't think I can say it enough...Hitch, you are a fucking Rock Star! What a special man. Peace.
hwk1969 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 cont'd As for Science being a religion as you say, that is impossible. Science cannot be a religion as religion requires worship and dogma, not to mention a figure or figures to worship. Science is no more and no less than a means for finding truth and knowledge. The most efficient means to date. It has no moral code or commandments. It bears neither enmity nor conditional love. No, science is just one part of how we choose to live. The others are as I have already said before.
champjklccmk 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 cont'd recognition or rewards. Then there's also the other major religions which have A LOT of problems on their own. How in the world can you reconcile yourself with all of them? Eventually, if the path of peace does lie with religion as you suggest, then one of them will have to reign supreme over the rest and become the one true religion. Is it yours? This is a fact that every single advocate of the same message as you will have to confront. The sooner the better. cont'd
champjklccmk 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 cont'd Christianity does have its moments of good though. I can never deny that. But you also can't deny that a large number of them, not all though (I know some genuinely good Christians), do it only because they are being told to or for fear of eternal punishment. Charity out of fear for the fires of hell or the need for the spotlight of admiration is empty and meaningless. If we give, it should be because we are truly moved to be compassionate towards others. Not for cont'd
champjklccmk 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 cont'd If we had a religion that focuses solely on peaceful means of existence and possess a certain kind of Rationality behind it without any illogical dogma, then I would be all for it. Take Buddhism for example. Not one word about killing those of other faiths, not one criticism about one's gender or choice of lifestyle and condemns atrocity in all forms. That's as far as I know at least. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not perfect, but it's one of the better choices. cont'd
champjklccmk 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 You're welcome. I always go for healthy debates whenever the opportunity presents itself. But I think your getting some things mixed up here. Although it is true that I am an atheist like Hitchens, I don't get so hung up in the past as others are. Maybe before I was, but then I realized that it was childish and counter-productive. What we should look to is the future. Now religion can be used for good, there's no doubt about that. But is it the best way? No. cont'd
champjklccmk 4 months ago
Joseph Goebbel or something was excommunicated in 1931, years before Hitler even started to my knowledge but I may be wrong. That said, because one isn't excommunicated doesn't an the Church accepts your crimes. Recent findings in the Vatican show that Pius XII tried exorcising Hitler from a long distance (it didn't work))
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 You wrote Recent findings in the Vatican show that Pius XII tried exorcising Hitler from a long distance (it didn't work))"
Are you trolling? Whether or not the pope tried exorcising Hitler, it couldn't work because there are no spirits to evict from a body. Couldn't be done if the Pope was standing on top Hitler's chest screaming at him in latin, so it certainly couldn't work from afar.
Cannot believe anyone in this day and age would make your comment. Too fun. Thank you.
DoctorOfDisbelief 4 months ago 19
@DoctorOfDisbelief Well mister doctor of disbelief, whether God exists or not still shows that Pius didn't like Hitler one bit. You say oyur having fun with me; know I also have fun with you atheists because I troll your videos all the flipping time. You can't believe people make such comments? You'd better believe because we've been saying such things for a zillion years, we've won billions of converts and we ain't gonna stop. Why can't you believe? Because atheism is supposedly smarter than
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@DoctorOfDisbelief religious belief? As if atheism gives you a disposition that gives you a bigger brain because supposedly religious belief reatards intelligence. If you were speaking about scientology I'd say fine, that is a belief system that retards peoples bri=ains but Catholicism? Saints were amongst the smartest people ever and the Cath. faith, contrary to popular belief, requires that you study religion to see why it is plausible. It always held this belief and the Summa Theologica is
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@DoctorOfDisbelief filled with this trope. And I know the case of Galileo, which is just one measly case of Church officials persecuting a man. Guess what? It apologized and pulled his works form the index in the 1700's.
People don't want freedom from religion, they want freedom OF religion. There have always been people who don't care about religion, today even more so because of the worldliness of the world and the mass media and yet what have you accomplished? Did you bring us world peace?
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 "There have always been people who don't care about religion, today even more so because of the worldliness of the world and the mass media and yet what have you accomplished? Did you bring us world peace?"
I'm sorry, but what peace has religion brought? Did it bring the whole world under one banner of coexistence? Or did the various, illogical fallacies that all of you spout simply drive us apart even more? Secularism is what keeps the crazies at bay, not religion...
champjklccmk 4 months ago
@champjklccmk What illogical fallacies? You mean the diffirent religions? For one thing, you must see which religions you are talking about because in the case of the Catholic Church, while it didn't see the validness of other religions, never said anything that these peoples should be killed. The Crusades for one thing as I said were a war, not against Islam but against a genuine threat, the saracens. Google the Crusades and the spin doctors if you're interested. Secondly, alot of the dissent
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk agaisnt the RCC was made by groups who actively seperated THEMSELVES form it, such as the Russian Orth. church and protestantism. And while it is true that the RCC still has to bring world peace, it worked hard to fulfill it with its missions, and the works of the Popes, etc... governments may try to bring peace but ultimately, alot of them used methods which were bad, such as America's violent revolution and expelling of natives and its decades o racism.My point being that despite
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk what you say, our religion at least didn't and never sought to take over the world, either by force or politically. Some Popes were rather heavy handed like Innocent III but not all of them and not every catholic agreed with their direction. That, and the fact that the aim of the Church is to bring peace to the world not by politics but by faith in Christ, nothing of which says to kill those who disagree with you. It'd take too long to refute alot of myths, owever, if you want to
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk discuss it, I'd be willing. The governments may not bring peace on their own and never will but with help of the Church and its members, I believe we can. Atrocities can be commited by both sides but that doesn't make either one side completely invalid; the value of a good thing can't be judged by its abuse.
Besides, Christianity did bring peace and order, if not through the whole world but to alot pf places. It established the morals we so believe in today and when there was
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 cont'd from candles to lightbulbs without any aid from the supernatural. The scientific method gave us medicine, knowledge, a future. Science has made our lives so much better, the way religion never could. But again, this is merely superficial. What I have stated, though true, is nonetheless just the shallow part of our stance. It has never been about which side produced more resluts, but rather, which side will ultimately lead us to a better world. One without wars cont'd
champjklccmk 4 months ago
@champjklccmk Yes, which side will lead us to a better world? Both-ish. You see, science in and of itself can't lead society to peace, people can and what they believe in. Don't you see that people don't want science as a rleigion, they don't want it to lead their lvies, they want to use it to better their lives. We msut include everyone in society, especially those who are ignorant. And going against such arrogant morons as Stephen Frry and Hitchens, atheism will not and will never lead society
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk to a better place. Few people want and ask for freedom from religion; they want freedom OF religion. If you want real freedom from religion, then the least you could do was take away lands owned by religious and the church, censor such works and bring devotion down to private worship, like how the French revolution, Napoleon and communism did. You'll say that these people only wanted power yet they maksed their lines with cheap concepts such as 'freedom' and 'power' and ended up
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk much worse than the 'evil' governments they fought against. I doubt very much atheists want this but thats where their agenda falls. Atheism can spread no good because it has no morality. I don't think atheists are bad, just the philosophies stemming from it. So no, a world without religion is a world full of emptiness. Do we want to become democrats for the sake of becoming democrats? Hell, why not lock ourselves in a bottle, that way we'll have a democratic country by ourselves.
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk We have faith in God (and Mary for Catholics too) because our religion is about peace. It doesn't seek to control land like Islam or Zionism, it only wants to convert people so that they may do good. It'd be good if when there comes a Catholic government again, there'd be freedom for all religions and not some of them like whats happened in Francos Spain, and its not like the Church is so 'unconservative' as to not accept freedom to practice other religions for non-catohlics. While
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk Catholics would sin if they left the Church and while outside the Church there is no salvation (and this is a dogma of the faith), I see no wrong in permitting freedom to practice religion. It worked very well in the US, why not in Cathlic countries especially in this day and age? Would you live in a Catholic country is that happened?
As for wars, there will always be wars but we can prevent them. Had the crusades been fought with rubber chickens, catapults and pies, with no one
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk getting killed at all, it'd still be a war and considering some of the other crusades, it'd still be wrong as it'd be gaining land which you don't deserve (for more on the crusades, google Listverse: the 8 crusades explained for a short read).
Well, whats your opinion? Sorry for talking so quickly but thanks for not being nasty whatsoever. You wouldn't believe how many insults and historical/theological/logically innacurate comments you get on you tube :-).
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk trouble, the Church sought peaceful means when it was necessary, such as what happened between the Cathars and Innocent III, and Pope St. Leo and Attila the Hun. Even the Inquisition, which in my opinion is one of the greatest innovations of all time and far from being a bloodthirsty organization (all three of which killed less than 8000 at least, 10,000 at most. Though the killing was bad, it wasn't common. Imagine if there was an inquisition in Ireland today to root out all pedos
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 Dude, you could've just PM'd me, it would've been a lot less hassle for you. Anyway, though you do make some valid points, I can't help but notice how hard you're trying to put a more positive light on your side. I agree on a lot of what you said, having witnessed many charitable acts done by religious folks. But one's judgement shouldn't be clouded by superficial acts of kindness or atrocities alike. In the last 5 centuries, Science has propelled our civilization cont'd
champjklccmk 4 months ago
@champjklccmk Thx for being kind in your response. Superficial nothing, as defending people from slavery, saving their lives and their souls from hell, educating them and bringing them up to do good is far from being superficial. Science may have given us resources and propelled society even more by them but it isn't the sol reason. More people have died with the use of moder weaponry than before yet we don't call science bad at all. Science for men, not vice versa. 2nd, you must note what the
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk propellation of society is. In my opinion, what makes a society good is not whether it is a democracy or a monarchy as both of these systems can be good, but how it serves its people and how they apply their morals. If you have a society like N. Korea where ignorance, hunger and brainwashing is rampant, the country ain't doing its people any good; if you have a society like the Aztecs and Romans where violence and sex was rampant, the people ain't serving each other. There will al-
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk ways be outcasts and sore thumbs in societies, with immoral people and criminals, but if just laws are upheld I think you'd have a stable society. Now the Church did have a stable society, especially in the middle ages and was far from being a dictatorship. There certainly were tyrants like Louis XIV and Isabella II and incompetent kings like John II but there were also good ones like Louis IX who cared deeply for his people and in a sense Isabella II. The inquisiton rooted out
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk heresy from within its walls though it left public Protestants and Jews alone. Though the killing was excessive (even though to be fair, in the case of the Port. and Spanish Inq. it was done by the state and the Rom. ones were not under catholic dogma). And while public worship of Protestantism was illegal in the papal states (not surprsing the harm it did to the Church), private worship wasn't and Judaism was legal in public.
I'll be back. I'll speak abut jewish question...
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 cont'd or pain or suffering. Religion can never give us that! Why? How can it? Putting aside that there are many religions, all of whom their members believe to be the one true religion, there are even many variations of these religions. And within these variations, not everyone agree on the same things. You put faith on things that can't be tested, can't be seen and can't be proven. In the end, all you have to go on is the conviction that you're faith is right. Consider cont'd
champjklccmk 4 months ago
@champjklccmk What I really see as the biggest atrocity commited by the Church was, not the killing of Jews as the Church never allowed that and Siants fought agaisnt it, but the alienation of Jews from other people. The council of Lateran made it so that Jews and Muslims had to wear badges to distinguish them from Christians. While the intent was for heresy not to spread and not anti-semitism, not allowing the Jews to have some jobs was far too excessive. Yes, it wasn't under Christian dogma
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk but was a law promulagated by the Vatican but still its too excessive. I can see the reason why it was done, especially to the Muslims at that time (no offense to Muslims today) but for Christian rulers to expel them form their lands and confiscate their properties is a big no no. To be fair, alot of Saints and the Popes themselves condemned all this rabid anti-semitism and forbade forced conversion (amongst them Vincent Ferrer. Check the book Vincent Ferrer and the Kings Jews) and
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@champjklccmk when WWII came, Catholics and the Pope proved themselves to really care for them despite their diffirences and that they didn't want war. And this all coming from a person who really disagrees with Judaism which is diffirent from the old one as night and day and who is very anti-zionist because zionism has an evil agenda.
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 cont'd for a second please the implications of this. How can you possibly make rational decisions when you base it solely on personal opinion and religious doctrine? The bible tells you to stone gays while the Koran tells you to slay infidels. None of those are rational and yet if you were truly a follower of any of these teachings, you wouldn't even hesitate to do them. How can something so grounded in flawed reason even begin to bring world peace? It can't. Our side cont'd
champjklccmk 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 cont'd on the other hand base everything on Reason. There's no danger in us comitting genocide based on a difference in race, ethnicity or religion. We question everything and never follow blindly. To us there are no absolutes and things can be changed based on reason, facts and data. We would never kill on the decisions of leaders, we would never invade on the whim of one or more persons. We never close our minds on a subject simply because we disagree with it. To us cont'd
champjklccmk 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 cont'd everything is up for debate, nothing is immune to scrutiny. This does not only apply on religion mind you. We are against everything illogical, everything unreasonable, everything that poses as on the side of good but really is nothing more than a group of bullies. To us, everyone is equal. No one is above, no one is beneath. There is no room for emotion or personal opinion when making decisions. Only cold, calculating Reason.
champjklccmk 4 months ago
@champjklccmk and modernist heretics and expose them for what they are, as commanded in Pius V's Horrendum).
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@DoctorOfDisbelief Does belief make you anti-humanist? Is science incompatible with religion? Not according to the Catholic faith, and this coming from an ultra conservative Cath., the type you people despise the most.
Scholars may study your antireligious works but culturally, atheism is invisible. Science may make discoveries but it isn't an end to itself: science for men not men for science. Tell me sir, what has lukewarmness and anti-religion changed for the better? What is goodness BTW?
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854 BTW, what was it again that caused people to slaughter each other because they were convinced that an invisible, unseen, but ferverently worshipped figure had their backs? Yes, that's right... fill in the blanks now... Science is incompatible with Religion, I don't CARE what the catholic church says... You rely on faith, while we rely on reason and logic and the ability of humans to surpass their natural genetic origin that urges them to lose their minds...
champjklccmk 4 months ago
@champjklccmk How many people slaughtered each other because they thought their own way of doing things was the good way, such the French revolution, communism, Napoleon, the Iraq and Vietnam wars? Wasn't it France that closed so many religious institutions in the first place? What genetic origin urges you to lose your mind and who said we rely on faith without the use of reason? To say we are unreasonable people and who regard science and what other non-religious did as bad is preposterous.
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
@philipmarie1854
Goebbels was not excommunicated for being a Nazi, he married into the wrong religion.
The attempted exorcising of Hitler is funny....and a complete fabrication on the part of BAD apologists.
ThieleM 3 months ago 2
@philipmarie1854 i lol'd at 'it didn't work'
MrWaddefak 2 months ago
ravings worthy of Fred Phelps, Really, if religion was wiped out by war it'd be a good thing? People tried doing that for the last hundred years and they failed. They even kidnapped the Pope and they STILL failed, partly because Pius VII was rather saintly. Neither will you destroy the moral integrity of alot of Catholics and as Pius X said, we will always be there to baptize you all. May the truimph of the Immaculate Heart come; maybe we won't have people like Salazar giving us a bad name (BTW
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
I don't think that all atheists or even the majority of them are evil. You'll be hard pressed to find a TRADITIONALIST Catholic who thinks everyone who is not Catholic is evil and even if you were to, explaining to him his logical fallacy can and does change his mind. He won't change his ideas about the faith but when was our faith about labelling others evil?
I'll sat it though that Hitchens is an outright jerk. I was surprized how calm he was but his comments on religion and the religious are
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
and it doesn't mean that it was always that way in the past. Constanine made Christianity the state religion yet everyone was free to have his own religion. In Catholic countries which were run by the Pope, people could have their own religion though they weren't allowed to preach it in public, with Catholicism being a state religion and all though to be fair, Judaism was allowed to build synagogues. Agree to disagree but man, be fair about it. I'm a hardcore and ultra-conservative Catholic yet
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
SOME religions are man made. In fact, the majority of the but that doesn't mean all of them are. If Jesus is God, it would prove that the Catholic Church is the one true religion because He found it. Religion doesn't cause killing, it is simply intolerance. The French revolution was atheist and it killed 40,000 people 'for freedom'. The thing is, we will always disagree on whose beliefs are right, just'this doesn't mean that it is a violent disagreement, it doesn't mean we can't live in peace
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
with saving thousands of Jews. As for the birthday bit about Hitler, google Archbishop Orsenigo Celebrates Hitler’s Birthday and click the first link in RJ's blog. Besides, what do you expect the Pope to do, lash out at Mussolini and risk persecution of Catholics? Hell, Schneider was a 'nazi' who saved thousands of Jews and he didn't speak out against the Nazis!!! Obvius really.
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
the Catholic faith that made them do such atrocities but their own misguided beliefs and their pride. I agreee with Hitchens that atheism wasn't responsible for all those atrocities. However, SOME philosophies stemming from atheism can and still do evil in the world such as communism, anarchism and yes, fascism, because the Church only made an agreement with Mussolini to give freedom to the Church. No Cath. with deep religious beliefs would support Mussolini and in fact, the Church is credited
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
there as the off a Pope isn't ven bad: he's the leder of Christianity. Sure there were corrupt Popes but therew were also good ones. There were god people like Sts John Bosco, Francis Xavier, Ignatiusof Loyola, Teresa of Avila and the Blessed Mother Herself but there were also bad ones like Isabella of Spain, Ante-Pavelic and Mussolini who wasn't even Catholic, just pretending to be one. Does the evil which these three did outweigh the good influence which the other left? No, because it wasn't
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
Discarding of reason over faith nothing. The Church may not have allowed heresy to grow but it never allowed forced conversion and it certianly didn't teach that if you listen to the name of Jesus the first time, you HAVE to belief. There are reasons why Christianity is plausible and the Church always supported the right for one to study his Cath. faith if only to destroy doubts. Hell, the Summa Theologica is made of this.
While Catholics certaily were allied under the Pope, they did no wrong
philipmarie1854 4 months ago
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The lies, distortions, historical revisions and fallacies of these militant atheists are so obvious only the willfully ignorant and blind would fail to see them. Atheism can't be responsible for atrocities. Of course not. Religion is responsible for evil, thus if evil is committed it is because of religion. This circular reasoning thus redefines atheist atrocities as religious; so the USSR, China, post revolutionary France, Stalin, Mao, etc become religious. How rational.
ChristianMission 4 months ago
Excuse me, i meant "Monarchy is Idolatry within Judeo-Christian scripture, not "Christian tradition."
Onieracraft 5 months ago
Yes Hitchens, it is secularism, it is just not YOUR conception of Secularism, just like the Inquisition isn't most modern Christian's conception of Christianity. The Torture of the Inquisition bore far more of a resemblance to pagan Rome's tactics of torture, including against Christians, than to any thing that occurred in the Early church. Let's blame Pagan Rome for that.
Read 1 Samuel 8 Monarchy is Idolatry in the Christian tradition, but it is inevitable to atheistic collectivism..
Onieracraft 5 months ago
@Onieracraft
The point is that dogmatism is the problem. Yes you might get an atheistic dogmatism running in the way that Soviet Russia had or you might not as modern Sweden hasn't (at least yet) even though they are 80% atheistic. What you can't have is a dogma free religious state. Thats the point. Secularism is by no means a guarantee of an undogmatic, freethinking and forward looking society but I'm afraid it is a necessary prerequisite.
omegavalerius 5 months ago
@omegavalerius
I disagree with the dichotomy of "secular" and "religious" society. There is also Non-sectarian society, which I believe was the original intent of the founders.
To understand the difference consider the gap between the Jurisprudence of Justice Hugo Black on the Establishment Clause (Secularism) and that of Justice William Rehnquist (Non-sectarianism).
Onieracraft 5 months ago
Oh excuse me, I didn't see you were Finnish, I was discussing American Jurisprudence.
The difference here is between government not favoring one religion over another (Non-Sectarianism) and government completely alienating religion IN GENERAL.
Onieracraft 5 months ago
@Onieracraft There are too many religions to try and not favour one over the other, except by ignoring them all AKA secularism.
DSBrekus 4 months ago
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SUCH A DUM BITCH HE WILL BURN IN HELL
alrightmichelle 7 months ago
I fucking love Hitchens!
Thumbs Up!
BlankPicketSign 7 months ago
who saw the thumbnail and assumed that the Hitch had grown a particularly unfashionable black goatee?
reballare 9 months ago
Every day, the children in Nazi germany recited a prayer of allegiance to "Adolf Hitler, Unser Gott" - meaning our god. This was not christianity. Hitler occasionally mentions in his speeches that he considered himself a christian...was it the drugs or was he nuts, since these are not compatible. It is legit to attack some practices of the catholic priests who helped former Nazis escape at the end of the war. Some may have believed it is their duty to help all people no matter what- I disagree
notdatkindacoke 10 months ago
@notdatkindacoke Bravo for intellectual dishonesty worthy of a priest or mullah or rabbi! German school children never called him a god or God. They PRAISED God for giving them Hitler! You're the worst kind of debater, sprinkling your arguments with lies and deception. You must be the type who would help the priest diddle the little boys then call the boys the lairs! Or even worse, you're a Nazi apologist.
bl91978 10 months ago
@notdatkindacoke "Adolf Hitler, Unser Gott" may be a misquote or misinterpretation. Unser means 'ours', but Unter means 'under'. It would make more sense. Just as the United States is 'our nation under god', they could have been saying 'Adolf Hitler under god'. Mind you, I am not a historian, nor an expert on language. I thought what you said was interesting, and looked it up.
skywize 8 months ago
@MrJaredJammer You are the one in denial. Please read an honest account of history before posting again to avoid exposing the depth of your (voluntary?) ignorance. Every lie you revolting, immoral bible-bashes have pushed concerning atheism being a force for ill in the world have been easily debunked again and again. There remains only two reasons or causes for faith now; voluntary ignorance or indoctrination; ignoring reality, or having been denied a chance to experience & learn about reality.
Tuathalful 10 months ago
I think this bloke's a bit of a dickhead. His politics are too cynical about the progressive Left & so serve to perpetuate apathy in the face of the systemic injustice that is neo-liberal/neo-conservative capitalism. Nevertheless, he could not be more right about the dire need for secularism in the face of a history full of religion's wrongdoing & atrocities. The day the last God-botherer fades to insignificance will represent the greatest single step forward in human history & development yet.
Tuathalful 10 months ago
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KryptonFluoride 10 months ago
@Tuathalful As a skeptic, one cannot have it both ways. You applaud this man for questioning the blind faith of religious people, but you claim he is "too cynical" when it comes to leftist/progressive policies. Do you not understand the irony in what you are saying? Why are the beliefs of the political left (your beliefs - and mine too I might add) exempt from scrutiny? The historical evidence suggests that the ideologies of the left are just as easily perverted by tyrants as those of the right
KryptonFluoride 10 months ago 4
@mrjaredjammer if life is meaningless and nothing we do matters than the only thing that matters is what we do. Right now, this moment, this day. Atheism isn't a group of faith. It's individuals that are seperate, the believe what they want. We aren't a group that strives for a single goal.
ActuallyLiam 10 months ago
@MrJaredJammer You have confused value with meaning. They are not interchangable words. The beer I buy has value but no meaning. Please reword your premise.
The religious believe they will be rewarded with an eternity of self-serving pleasure in reward for blind faith.
Knowing this, how can anyone be surprised at how destructive theism has been throughout history?
Theist's denialism doesn't erase their bloody history
BriansBannister 10 months ago
@MrJaredJammer lol, ur stupid. There's a big problem with your logic. It's called "common sense". :D
Drgamedood 10 months ago
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NOMADdaf 10 months ago
This video and all of the people here pointing the finger at one another are all missing the point! You don't need an excuse to do evil! In fact, blaming people's evil acts on what they believe or don't believe simply excuses those acts and denies those people responsibility for their own actions.
ShortytheSquirrel 11 months ago
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Heed! Let's take notice of [The END] our time_ Mathew24:36-39
There are real understandings and hope profusely in God's Word, the Bible:
The world is managed_ 1John5:19 Revelation12:7-12
Major +/- occurrences_ Mathew24:7,8,10-14,21,22
Predicted changes in People’s behaviors_ 2Timothy 3:1-5
The True God will act soon_ Revelation16:13,14 Daniel2:44
We too must act so to be saved_ Revelation18:4 Zephaniah2:3 John17:3 Mathew6:9-11,33,34 Mark13:13
A New World, at hand Psalm37:9-11 2Peter3:8-13
plptous 11 months ago
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plptous 11 months ago
@plptous You're babbling. Quoting something doesn't make it true; contemplating and validating it does. And that second to last line is patently wrong. No conception is ever greater than its conceptor? What about superman? Isn't he greater than his comic artist conceptors?
Also, check into modern scientific theories on the big bang, vacuum fluctuation energy, abiogenesis, and evolution. Once you fully understand these scientific facts, you will see how we can exist without a god.
CopyFox7 11 months ago
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: It is trueto say that relgions such as Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism do a very poor job in combatting racism. They may even promote it as in the case of Apartheid South Africa, Zionist Israel and the Hindu class system. However, this does not make atheism a morally superior ideology as Hitchens himself defends the illigal war against Iraq. Islam is the only religion that is effective in combatting racism. Evidence:
Google: nationmaster rapes
Invesigator 11 months ago
@Invesigator No, it does not make atheism a morally superior ideology, because its not an ideology. It is a position that there is no evidence for believing in a magic man in the sky. It has no position about morals, ethics or evolution. Only ignorance.
binkasaurus 11 months ago
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@Invesigator //However, this does not make atheism a morally superior ideology as Hitchens himself defends the illigal war against Iraq.//
1) Hitchens is not "atheism" nor does he represent the views of all atheists.
2) Atheism is not a moral stance.
3) You're an idiot.
Thx for playing.
Drgamedood 10 months ago
I would think the closest thing to a sour secular revolution is the French Revolution.
LanceDirk 11 months ago
VOLUME. UP. PLEASE. Thank you.
Bobbiethejean 11 months ago
@TRUNDLETHOR you're still batshit insane.
xomiakas 11 months ago
@TRUNDLETHOR Who or what EXACTLY does Hitchens seek power from? Merely making an accusation has no weight. You must cite examples or show evidence of his power seeking.
BTW, I think you're religious and I'm damn certain you're not a freethinker. I'm willing to bet you're one of those Christian pretenders who claims to be atheist in order to lie.
Nice try, but no cigar.
ciaochowbella 1 year ago
Hitler was no Darwinist as he favoured the theory of Lamarck and he was barely an atheist as he believed in 'Providence'. Sure, he might've renounced his Christianity before the end but that doesn't automatically make one an atheist. It's Martin Luther's influence on Hitler that inspired his hatred for the Jews. Christian influences made him who he was. No-one can deny that. No-one can deny his followers were Christian. No-one can deny Hitler's alliance with the Church.
viridismonasteriense 1 year ago
@Grendo147 My dad helped kill some of those soldiers during the war. He even has one of the SS patches torn from one dead soldier as a trophy. He said they fought well but, not as they expected.
spareaxe 1 year ago
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misterdeeeep 1 year ago
@TRUNDLETHOR
The fact that we cannot provide definite proof doesn't mean we have an illogical belief - this is solely because the onus of proof is on YOU, since it is ridiculous to assume we'd be able to disprove "God exists" just as it would be ridiculous to assume we can disprove "Unicorns exists". The onus of proof is on you, else we'd have to be agnostic about EVERY THOUGHT ANYONE COULD EVER THINK OF.
So prove to me God exists, as the burden of proof isn't on me.
DR000 1 year ago
@TRUNDLETHOR
Wow, you just retype what you said before. You haven't even put a braincell of thought to understand how stupid, irrational, and logically silly your view is.
DR000 1 year ago
@TRUNDLETHOR
Also, let me add, because I know you are going to say this: "NOT BELIEVING IN GOD WITHOUT PROOF IS STUPID"
The onus of proof is on you, it would be ridiculous for you to expect me to create proof for every negative you can think of. Imagine if I told you to prove that an invisible unicorn doesn't exist on Mars. Now I hope you understand how stupid a question like "Prove God doesn't exist" is.
DR000 1 year ago
@TRUNDLETHOR
Do you realize how silly it is to be agnostic about anything that _might_ exist? Are you agnostic about unicorns? Leprechauns? It is stupid to be agnostic about things that are unfalsifiable (like God) because we won't ever have the tools to prove or disprove it. That is why we are atheist. "Does God exist" is a meaningless question like "What is the color of Jealousy". We cannot prove either one, so it is irrelevant.
Believing in anything without proof is stupid.
DR000 1 year ago
@TRUNDLETHOR By the way, you don't even understand the word atheism - it comes from Greek and means 'without god." It does not mean disbelief. Get an education before you embarrass yourself further.
DoctorOfDisbelief 1 year ago
@TRUNDLETHOR The assumption is made by you and those who think there is a god. We don't have any assumption. We don't assume he doesn't exist, there is no evidence that he does, yet you actively believe in something with no evidence. That is a very weak position. Sanctimonious def: hypocritically pious or devout. That is specifically a religious term (though it can be used otherwise). How appropriate to be used by a sanctimonious believer. Ignorance is assuming there is a god without evidence.
DoctorOfDisbelief 1 year ago
@TRUNDLETHOR
I find your strawman hilarious "atheists believe putting water on dirt gives life!"
If God cannot be detected, then God is meaningless. Not to mention that believing in the Bible as a historical piece of history, or an accurate book on science is completely moronic.
DR000 1 year ago
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LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: Although it is possible for racists and fascists to be so-called Christians, they are adhere to atheist, Darwinistic doctrines. Hitler was more an atheist so-social darwinist than a Christian.
Invesigator 1 year ago
@Invesigator You need to do a little thinking with your investigating. The people who did all the killing of millions of Jewish people were christian germans. Hitler could have been Satan himself, and it wouldn't change the fact that the german people did the killing. German soldiers and civilians. The nazi's wore the symbol "gott mit uns" which is "God with Us" on their belt-buckles. So much for your theory.
DoctorOfDisbelief 1 year ago 77
@DoctorOfDisbelief
The Nazis did not just put it on the belts. They also put it in the prussian flag and coat of arms. Hitler personally established roman catholicism as state religion in Germany, sponsored mandatory religion class in public schools and has been a member of the catholic church his entire life. His tax records, which are available at the Munich archives, show that he always payed his church tax. So Hitler was either a christian or the most catholic atheist who ever lived.
DerKazuya 1 year ago
@DoctorOfDisbelief Hitler may have been born an Christian. However, in practice he behaved more like a social-darwinist which itself is a sub-ideology of atheist evolution theory. The nazi's may have worn a symbol that said "gott mit uns" but they did not believe it.
Also remember that national-socialism is, contrary to popular belief, not so different from international-socialism which is communism. And we know how many people got killed through that atheist ideology.
Invesigator 11 months ago
@DoctorOfDisbelief Bravo. It never ceases to amaze me, the level of ignorance on the theist side of the argument To quote the great Hitchens himself when speaking to Hannity...
"Forgive me for saying, but you strike me as someone who's never heard a single argument against their position ever."
If that isnt verbatim then I apologise for the inaccuracy, if it is..I apologise for being such a Hitchens geek.
comanchio1976 11 months ago
@Invesigator Ad Hominem, plain and simple. Your argument is bullshit and an obvious logical fallacy. There is nothing inherent in atheism or the work Darwin did which calls the members to violence or oppression.
This debate of "which group has the worst historical figures, the theists or the atheists?" is the biggest fucking waste of time. It's all AD HOMINEM against the atheists, BUT there IS violence and slavery in scripture, so EVIL IS INHERENT IN ABRAHAMIC MONOTHEISM.
STFU THEISTS!!!
Oozazabanya 1 year ago
@Oozazabanya I am not denying that Christiany , Judaism and Hinduism do a very poor job in combatting racism. In many instances they even condone it. However, atheists can be both immoral AND racist. Iraq and Afghanistan have been invaded and millions of their populations killed by atheist, godless, Western troops. The majority of wars are not started by religion, they're started by europeans. Even Mr. Hitchens, who is an atheist, supports the illigal and genocidal war against in Iraq.
Invesigator 1 year ago
@Invesigator Read my comment again, read it VERY CLOSELY PLEASE, I BEG YOU!
This is all Ad Hominem, look it up. It serves as no evidence for or against the concept of theism or atheism. You can only use the ACTUAL scripture/source material to argue for or against religions, not the religious figures in history, or prophets, or disciples. You cannot use atheists as evidence for or against the concept of atheism, plain and simple. Atheism does not dictate violence, however some religions do.
Oozazabanya 1 year ago
@Oozazabanya If atheism does not dictate violence, why did atheist communists kill around millions of innocent people when they ruled Russia? If atheism does not dictate violence, why did atheist Britain and ahteist Denmark join the illigal occupation of Iraq?
Invesigator 1 year ago
@Invesigator This is getting really old man, Ad Hominem is a fucking logical fallacy, plain and simple.
The definition of atheism, is not believing in any theistic deity/god. THAT'S ALL
There is no call to violence, slavery, or racism in that definition is there?
End of the argument, fucking look up ad hominem, get some critical thinking skills, and a fucking education. You are so brainless it's going to lower my IQ explaining the same thing over and over again to you.
Oozazabanya 1 year ago
@Oozazabanya Hey, on my YT profile you call me 'fuckhead' without provocation. Doesn't that in itself tell you the mindset of atheists?
Invesigator 1 year ago
@Invesigator Just look at your comment...you know what your comment is, a TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE of AD HOMINEM. I've said it to you a million times already...you cannot discredit an argument based on the actions of the speaker. No you don't even have to look it up, it's right here in my comment. It means that I can call you a fuckhead, which you DEFINITELY ARE, over and over again, but it has nothing to do with atheism. Atheism doesn't force me to call you a fuckhead, I say it because you are one!
Oozazabanya 1 year ago