I'm culturally Indonesian Javanese but my paternal great grandfather was immigrant from Hokkien Southern Minan. It's nice knowing one of my ancestry language. Happy Chinese New Year everyone! :-)
I wonder why the title of this video is Hokkien Dialect, shouldn't the title be the name of the song "金包银"? Does anyone go around putting English MV's and name them "English Language"? Or put a Jay Chou MV and name it "Mandarin Language"?? So weird...
Chinese mixed with Indians, Arabs, Turks, and other non-Han. We are a mix. I will admit that my ancestors are from northern china and my ancestors are from a small village along Hokkien coast where researchers believe still carry on cultures prior to Chinese "invasion".Some North Chinese think they're an ethnic minority when the locals consider them as Han. I met a 100% Mongol who considers herself Cantonese when her Mandarin accent is from Dongbei. Sad she doesn't want to be Mongol.
If you think about it, the area that Mandarin-speakers reside today use to be Dongyi and Xianbei Kingdoms. Korean and Mongolian kingdoms, and also at one point Jin kingdoms. All of these are not Hans. so, using your own logic, Mandarin itself should NOT be Han.
Cantonese simply means Han people from the province of Canton. Cantonese is not an ethnic minority because they are not a separate ethnic group. In England, people from London are called Londoners and people from Manchester are called Mancs, they can speak with very different accents bordering on being dialects, but both are ethnically English. People from Wales, however, are not English, but Welsh ethnically and they speak an entirely unrelated language that is Celtic.
@BAIYUE1 Not necessarily. An Englishman brought up in the "Queen's English" who has never heard a Manc or-let's use something further-a Yorkshireman speak, may not understand the other person at first . Cantonese and Mandarin are mostly mutually unintelligible, but they are of the same language family. Do you know what a language family is? They are both Sinitic family languages. Hmong language is a language belonging to the Tai-Kradai language superfamily.
@BAIYUE1 English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh are united but they acknowledge their ethnic differences. The Englishmen are descended from the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. These were GERMANIC tribes that came from Continental Europe and spoke a GERMANIC language. English is a GERMANIC language. Irish, Scots, and Welshmen are CELTIC peoples, NOT GERMANIC. They spoke CELTIC languages, namely Gaelic (Irish and Scots) and Brythonic (Welsh, Manx, and Cornish).
@BAIYUE1 What? How is Cantonese in any shape or form close to Zhuangzu? And what the hell is Zhuangzu? Cantonese has a small amount of words from the aboriginal Tai-Kradai languages that only exists in colloquialisms. In fact, Cantonese has a great deal more loanwords from Japanese and English. Is Cantonese Germanic and Ural-Altaic too? Mandarin has lots of influence from Manchurian and Mongolian, is it Tungustic now? The answer to both questions is no.
@BAIYUE1 I'm a linguistics minor, so I have studied the basic structure of all Tai-Kradai languages. I can tell you that Cantonese and Zhuang have only a couple things they share: informal colloquialisms limited to less than 20 words. and a few habits in spoken sentence structure. By and large, The grammar, pronunciation, syntax, word order, inflections have little in common. the result of any similarity is due to the close proximity of the ancient southern Han speakers and the Zhuang.
@BAIYUE1 No, infact there is very little lexical similarity between the two languages. It is all limited to informal colloquialisms. Formal nouns and verbs in Cantonese are identical for the most part with all other Chinese languages. And you cannot use vocabulary to define genetic relation between two languages. As I said before English and French share 60% vocabulary at least. But English is German, French is Latin. Similarities are due to a Sprachbund.
@BAIYUE1 Sure. I see no reason why people in Hong Kong should be forced to give up Cantonese and speak Mandarin. Just like I see no reason why someone from Alabama needs to talk like a Yankee. They have their own linguistic identity. And for them, Cantonese is the true Chinese, and it's what's familiar to them. Mandarin-speakers should stick to Mandarin and Cantonese to cantonese. but We're all Hans. Hmong, however, have a different cultural identity, so they're not Hans.
Han is simply a term we coined after the Han Dynasty, because it was the zenith of our civilization. And it has been used in academia to denoted the people of the Chinese Civlization, so it stuck. But you're correct, Cantonese people in fact often refer to ourselves as Tongyan (Tang people). Song, Ming, are also ok. Yuan and Qing, not so much as one is Mongolian and the other Manchurian. The most correct cultural term is Huaxia (People of Splendor).
@BAIYUE1 So, we can refer to Chinese as Huaxia from now on if you wish. Hua (refers to the majesty regality of the clothing of people) Xia (either refers to the Xia Dynasty or the "rigidity" of our Code of Morals). Huaxia were the children of the Yellow Emperor, the "People of Splender and Piety." Very arrogant, yes I know. But I actually think that term was used by non-Chinese tribes to refer to us. Also "China" came from Chin, which is, of course, Qin.
Actually,In past Huangdi killed Sivuu and Shennong.But now Han chinese call Huangdi,Sivuu,and shennong is three ancestor of them. I can't understand it.Can you explain that?
@BAIYUE1 No, Huangdi is the legendary ancestor of the Huaxia. Not the other two. The other two gave rise to other ethnicities. But I do not entertain mythic stories. The Huaxia were probably an admixture of prehistory ancestors of various peoples. I'm sure an entire race of people could not have descended from one guy.
@BAIYUE1 No, the huaxia only believe huangdi is their ancestor. Shennong (or Yan Emperor) came earlier and is a god. Nuwa and Fuxi were the other two Sovereigns and were like Adam and Eve and pretty much the parents of all human beings. If you want to take these stories so literally, I'm related to Jews and Germans, too.
@gariadara More on language genesis. America was colonized by the English. In a mere 200 years, the accents have become completely different. And even within America, the East Coast, Midwest, South, West all have different accents and local dialects. If the information age did not happen and populations are separated for longer, different languages would develope from American English. Even today, English can be so different: "Fancy a plaster?" and " Wanna bandaid?" mean the same thing.
@BAIYUE1 However, the English became so powerful that the Welsh, SCots, Irish, etc. all adopted the English language as their language. However, this is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the Chinese Han situation. Think of Cantonese, Hokkien, and Hakka as all being analogous to the Germanic English (Anglo-Saxons), you can think of Mandarin speakers as the Angles and the Cantonese as the Saxons. And the Tibetans, Zhuang, Hmong, Uyghurs, etc. being analogous to the Celtic tribes of Britain.
I think you're confused about what is an ethnic minority and what is Han. The Chinese Civilization was created by the Hans, the Hans have many different clans and tribes, but they are all Hans. Cantonese, Hakka, Hokkien, etc. are not ethnically different from one another, they are the same race, they are only names of provinces. Ethnic minorities refer to Hmong, Qiang, Tibetans, Mongols, Koreans, Bai, etc. now these are not place names, but names of non-Han foreign nationalities in China
@BAIYUE1 No. Han isn't Hmong. why would I put Hmong and Choang into Han? They are not related. It's like trying to put Arabs into the Danes....makes no sense whatsoever. Hmong and Choang are of FOREIGN ethnic identity. Their ancestors did not found the Han Dynasty. The Hans' ancestors did.
@BAIYUE1 How many times do I have to tell you that the Hans conquered those kingdoms and drove the people out of the territory? In the past, America was Cherokee Kingdom, Mohican Kingdom, Shoshone Kingdom, where are they?
In past,has many case one country only can conquered other country,but can't assimilate them.do you think it is same with Han dynasty and other kingdom in southern china(or south yangzi river)?
@BAIYUE1 I never said the Hans assimilated. In fact, they didn't for the most part. The Han settlements were separate from the conquered peoples' settlements. Therefore there were less race mixing and thus the people there today are basically Han. Some tribes were sinicized, namely the Gou-Wu and Yu-Yue of the baiyue, but they became part of the Chinese Civilization as Early as the Spring and Autumn period.
@BAIYUE1 The Cantonese and the Hmong are as different from one another as the Russians and the Irish. I really don't know why you would want to identify Hmong with Han. Do you understand now? Cantonese is a SUBGROUP WITHIN the HAN IDENTITY. But Hmong is ALTOGETHER UNRELATED TO THE HAN IDENTITY. hmong is as different from me as a Japanese person. In fact, a Hmong is MORE different from me than a Japanese person.
Hokkien is a dialect of the Min languages. Min is one branch of Sinitic (Han Chinese) languages, the other branch being Middle Chinese. Middle Chinese diverified into Guan (Mandarin), Wu, Yue (Cantonese), Xiang, and Gan languages later on. But both Min and Middle Chinese came from Old Chinese of the Oracle Bone era. Hokkien as a language appeared AFTER the Tang Dynasty, which came AFTER the Han Dynasty. It is in fact closest to Han Chinese during the Han Dynasty linguistically speaking.
@BAIYUE1 I took linguistics and anthropology in college. Min is a branch of the Chinese language family. So is Cantonese. Linguistically, Cantonese is very close to Mandarin. Mandarin has Tungustic influences from Manchurian. It is funny how you reverse things, Cantonese is the most Han Chinese language that still exists today as it preserves much of the diction and phonology of the Han Dynasty. You know that the Turkic tribes from the north displaced the Hans to the south right?
@BAIYUE1 I speak both Mandarin and Cantonese fluently. They are phonologically different enough to be mutually unintelligible in most cases but they are grammatically related.
@BAIYUE1 Mandarin is NOT "truly" language of Han Chinese. Mandarin had lost all word-final consonants other than "n." The Chinese language that was spoken during the Han Dynasty had word-final consonants like m, k, t, and p, in addition to n, which BOTH Min and Cantonese, as well as Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese preserve to this day. Mandarin has Tungustic (non-Han, Altaic) influences. Possibly Turkic too. Mandarin as a language only evolved centuries AFTER than Han Dynasty.
Mandarin is of course a Han Chinese language. So are Hokkien, Cantonese, Shanghainese, Gan, Hakka, Jin, Dungan, Xiang. Cantonese is spoken by millions of Han Chinese as mother tongue. That makes it a Han Chinese language, not to mention Cantonese directly descended from Middle Chinese of the Han Dynasty. Han is so named after the Han Dynasty.
I know which is "dialect of Chinese" actually is truly language.But chinese government still deny it.
And many chinese dialect now was replaced by madarin.And I think It is reason why Cantonese want protect their language before Madarin.They don't want cantonese disappear as hokkien in Taiwan or some shanghainese.
@BAIYUE1 You do not seem to understand linguistics. Cantonese and Mandarin and Hokkien as well as all the other "dialects" are indeed linguistically different enough to be considered different languages, however, they all belong to the same "clade" as in they all evolved from the same source. like Spanish and Italian and French, different languages, however, all are Romance languages and all 3 were once Latin and all 3 ethnic groups were once Romans.
This is the same with Canto, Mand, Min,etc. All of these are Han. And their respective speakers were all once people of the Han Dynasty. Just like the Romans. However, Vietnamese is completely different. If you think of the Chinese languages as the Romance languages, Vietnamese would be more comparable to Turkish or Finnish. In other words, Vietnamese language is Genetically unrelated to Sino-Tibetan languages like Cantonese and Mandarin, all similarities are considered Sprachbund.
@BAIYUE1 Cantonese is a separate language linguistically. I thought I clarified that already. However both Mandarin and Cantonese are Sinitic languages, whereas Vietnamese is a Mon-Khmer language. Han Chinese people were around thousands of years before Mandarin even existed. Nobody spoke Mandarin during the Han Dynasty. They spoke something similar sounding to Cantonese or Minnan. Which part of that don't you understand?
Vietnamese use 70% sino_Viet words,not only mon-khmer.
If Han dynasty speak Cantonese or Minnan is past,why Chinese government don't choose Cantonese and Minnan is official language of Chinese,and of Han chinese?
Why Most chinese is Han chinese,they must to speak madarin of Manchu?
@BAIYUE1 A language with LOAN WORDS from a different language doesn't mean it's related to said different language. English has 60% French loan words and has been heavily influenced by Latin but it is STILL a Germanic language, not a Romance language. The Han Dynasty did not speak Cantonese or Minnan or Mandarin, or ANY modern Chinese languages. All of these EVOLVED FROM the Old Chinese spoken during the Han Dynasty. Cantonese was spoken by the Nan Han Dynasty.
@BAIYUE1 Old Chinese also has more tones than Mandarin. Sounds like ng, k, m, t, p, were all in Classical Chinese spoken during the Han Dynasty, but Mandarin has LOST these sounds whereas ALL southern Chinese languages PRESERVED them because the Han Chinese Song Dynasty was FORCED TO THE SOUTH OF THE YANGTZE RIVER by northern Non-Han invaders. Vietnamese has loanwords from Chinese, that's all. Just like Japanese and Korean. the CORE of the language is unrelated.
When the KMT met in Beijing, Cantonese lost to Mandarin as being the national language by ONE VOTE. Had one more cabinet member voted on Cantonese as the common language, it would now be the official language of China. Since the founding fathers of modern China: Sun Yat-sen, Soong Sisters, Chiang Kai Shek, etc. were mostly ALL from Canton, they had to convince the North that the new government would work, so some of them felt they needed to gain ground by supporting the northern language.
Why in Guangdong,people don't teach Cantonese in school as in hokong?
I think it is not matter when they teach both cantonese and madarin for cantonese,because they speak cantonese as mother language,and only use madarin to communicate with people in other province.
@BAIYUE1 They most certainly do teach Cantonese in schools in Canton. In public schools they have to give lessons in Mandarin due to the Communist Government's edict. I told you, they voted Mandarin to be the national dialect. hong kong is a different government, so Cantonese is taught. This is due to politics, not anthropology. In an anthropology context, Cantonese is indubitably a Han Chinese language, as it sounds closer to Chinese spoken during the Han Dynasty.
@BAIYUE1 What you're talking about is a political situation. What is happening is one Han language is being forced to replace another Han language by THE GOVERNMENT. But governments and politics have nothing to do with the historical and cultural aspect of languages. Fact is, all of these are Han languages. Just like both French and Spanish are Romance languages. Do you understand? Stop mixing politics with linguistics. Cantonese hasn't been replaced by Mandarin. Its cultural strength is strong
Actually,I don't want to say about Cantonese.Because I know Cantonese is the second strongest after Madarin. Madarin is official language in China,but Cantonese is official language in Hokong and Macau.
So I think Han chinese also say about Madarin and shanghainese.
So what happen with other language as shanghainese,hokkien,...
Have anyone protect them.When they are ancient language of Han in past?
@BAIYUE1 What do you mean has anyone protected them? They are still being spoken. Hokkien has bloomed in Taiwan. Shanghainese is very close to Mandarin and sounds very close to it. But it is being spoken and in fact, in recent times, people have been trying to increase its impact by setting up Shanghainese radio and TV stations, etc. All Chinese languages come from the ancient Han spoken language. That language no longer exists, it exists only in the form of writing. Things change in history.
@BAIYUE1 No one speaks Latin anymore. You can't "protect" a language. Because you have no control over how it evolves over long periods of time. English, in 2000 years, will likely look and sound NOTHING like it is today. It sounds nothing like it did 2000 years ago, so it's safe to assume it will continue to change. English was also spoken by practically no one 2000 years ago, Now, it is the Lingua Franca of the world. Language is malleable, it is always changing and evolving.
Yes ,I know.Because our language also change from 2000 years to now.
But it is past.Now we respect our language,want to develope it.
Because we know that although language change,but it still reserve our ancestor language.And it is great gift of ancestor for us.We always protect it.
@BAIYUE1 You can try your best to preserve the status quo of your language, so to speak, but change is inevitable. How many generations do you think people can keep this "protection" up? 10? 20? that's a few centuries but what about millennia? Sooner or later, all human endeavors will succumb to the force of History. you never know what will happen, china may not exist in 200 hundred years' time. human beings may evolve to communicate via thoughts and language may become useless altogether.
But i think different.We can do our best to protect our language.
So I wonder whether Madarin people have think as you?Why they don't forgive madarin language ,and use Cantonese or Fukienese which is ancient language of Han.
@BAIYUE1 Those who do move to hong Kong, they do learn Cantonese. You can't survive in hong kong without learning Cantonese and English. I never said Cantonese, Hokkien and Hakka are ancient Chinese, Ancient chinese no longer exists. I said they are grammatically and phonetically CLOSER to ancient Chinese than Mandarin is. Phonetically, loanwords in Japanese and Korean are also CLOSER to ancient Chinese than Mandarin, because these two languages borrowed from Chinese during the Han and Tang.
@BAIYUE1 Your question makes no sense. Why would anyone learn another language if that language's cultural impact is less than your own? Why would an American learn Greek or Latin or Scots English or Anglo-Saxon if he/she lives in Wisconsin and isn't studying Linguistics? Learning a language needs to be practical. People from Beijing don't need to learn cantonese, just like many people in hong kong do not bother to learn Mandarin. If we need to communicate, we'll use English.
So many chinese as cantonese,shanghainese,fukkienese,...always say with me that "madarin is manchu language and their language is ancient of Han language"
@BAIYUE1 Mandarin is NOT manchu language, it is a Han Chinese language that has been influenced by Monglian, Turkic, Hunnic, and other Tungustic (Manchurian) languages. Southern Chinese languages did not get influence from these northern sources. IT is correct that Cantonese preserves more Old Chinese features. It is MORE LIKE Ancient Han Chinese than Mandarin is. But that doesn't mean Cantonese IS Old Chinese. Old Chinese, like Latin, only exists in very very OLD written records.
@BAIYUE1 I'm not interested in politics, so I will not attempt to answer your question about government issues. Hokkien's culture is more or less the same as Mandarin or Cantonese culture. Because all these are Han Chinese cultures. There are only regional differences. This is true with any other nation. In the USA, people from Alabama are very different from people from Chicago, it's almost a different culture. In Japan, people from Hokkaido are very different from people from Tokyo.
@BAIYUE1 I hope you can now tell the difference. Cantonese, hokkien, Shanghainese, Gan, Mandarin, etc. all being to a single ethnicity: Han. The other 55 ethnic groups have NOTHING to do with the founding of the ancient Chinese civilization (the Hans) but were either conquered or foreign born. Many of these non-Chinese minorities don't even have sinicized surnames. They have surnames like Gusumurong, Aishin Gioro, Bateer, Temur, etc. Not your typical Han style.
@BAIYUE1 You still don't understand. Hokkienese are not a separate race. Hokkienese isn't even a real word as there are not Hokkien"ese" people. There are Han people who are FROM Fujian Province (Hokkien Province) and speak a Han Chinese language of that area. It's like if i'm from Sweden and you're from Norway, but we're BOTH Vikings. Get it?
Language is SInitic. Origin is Han. DNA has been shown to be the same as the rest of Han Chinese.
"In earlier BC,don't have Han dynasty in south china?So why now they also are Han while Han is ethnic ?"
Uh....the Han Dynasty was in south China. It stretched from the Korean peninsula in the north to Fujian, Canton in the south. Check your geography dude.
@BAIYUE1 Haha, I'm lying? Do more research before you make a statement please. This is getting tiring. Of course there is genetic difference between north and south Chinese. However, when compared with non-Chinese populations, such as vietnamese or Thai or Korean, genetic studies show that any Chinese person is genetically distant from these nonChinese groups.
@BAIYUE1 Show me the research then. If I have DNA of Hmong people, then how come I look nothing like a Hmong or a Zhuang? I am 5'11", have skin whiter than an italian woman, and eyes and cheekbones so sharp and narrow I get mistaken for being Korean. If you have to insist I'm something which I'm not, good for you, whatever floats your boat. I go to a Vietnamese market I NEVER get mistaken for being Vietnamese. But people can't tell if I'm Chinese, korean or Japanese, there is a reason for that.
@BAIYUE1 Qin was actually southwest of the Yellow River FYI. It was the Kingdom of Zhao that was north at the Yellow River. The Kingdoms of Chu and Wei were south of the Yellow River and in fact south of the Yangtse. By the Western Han Dynasty, the Chinese have conquered most of the south including the regions of what is today Guangdong and Guangxi. By the Eastern Han, they have conquered the Minyue Kingdom to the Southeast. You have some Googling to do.
Actually,almost chinese dynasty invaded other kingdom,but they only live in center of new kingdom(which they invaded).People live around is not chinese.
You can imagine that "people live in city is chinese,but in all of village is non-chinese".So they only draw map cover other land,but assimilate other ethnic is different story.
@BAIYUE1 It's all very complex, the process of culture assimilation. But it's certain that many people were simply DRIVEN OUT of the conquered region or were NOT assimilated. Look at Tibet. We NEVER intermarried the Tibetans. Just like we probably only intermarried the Baiyue people very little. Well I'm from the Big City. My parents came from Guangzhou, the center of Han rule. My ancestry is from Shandong (that was like 10 generations ago) so I'm definitely Han.
@BAIYUE1 No the city of Guangzhou was called Panyu. And it was annexed by the Han Dynasty in 111 BC (Welsh, Frank (1974). Maya Rao. ed. A Borrowed Place: The History of Hong Kong)
Nanyue was conquered during Western Han Dyansty. Minyue was not. But Minyue was conquered in the EASTERn Han Dynasty.
@BAIYUE1 huaxia has been migrating to Guangdong since the Han Dynasty and they MASS FLOODED into Canton at the height of Tang. But also after. Yes. Me and my family and most people of Hong Kong are Chinese, not some ancient displaced Baiyue, because our ancestors are likely the ones from the southern Chinese migration.
It is reason why Han chinese has many dialect,actually language as cantonese or mandarin..
It is because they mix from north chinese and other Baiyue kingdom,with Cantonese is Tang and Nan yue,wih fukkien is Song and Min yue,with Shanghainese is Wu,....
@BAIYUE1 No, the reason is not mixing of languages. The reason is geographical isolation. Southern China has much more mountains and rivers that separate populations and made it difficult for people to constantly come in contact with one another, and so this gives rise to isolation. With isolation, the same language will develop locally without outside influence, soon, the same language develops different accents, accents evolve in to dialects, dialects evolve into distinct language.
@BAIYUE1 I know Baiyue had large population. Just not as large as the huaxia. And when our infantry and troops came down with our noblemen and settlers, like, hundreds of thousands of them all in one week's time.......trust me, it was like Israel and the Gaza Strip.
@BAIYUE1 Like I said. in 1000 years' time, and with Chinese troops having much more superior technology and organization.....and chinese legions numbered in the thousands mate. not a small number. sometimes, tens of thousands if they needed to set up a castle or a fort.
@BAIYUE1 Oh god....this is not a competition about who is less or more dude. It's historical fact that the Chinese Civilization was the lead in cultural development. If Baiyue was not less than the Huaxia forces somehow, than I guess it'd be called the People's Republic of Baiyue now and not China. If Baiyue was better and greater, I guess the Japanese wouldn't write in Kanji and drink green tea and the Romans wouldn't have mass imported silk from the Tang Dynasty.
@BAIYUE1 It seems you're the one who doesn't know much. Can you name the form of government of the Dien Yue? How was their court structured? Who was prime minister? how was he or she elected?
You are comparing. You're trying to elevate the culture of the Baiyue. I understnad that. And in fact by the time of the Minyue Kingdom of the Western Han, Minyue culture was pretty much identical to the Chinese one due to cultural influence. Like the English being similar to the Romans.
@BAIYUE1 Well "Khoa dau" cannot be determined to be associated with ancient Vietnamese peoples at this point. They could belong to Tai or pre-Thai or Muong tribes instead of the Nanyue tribes. In any case, the characters are shown to be derived from a general south-east asian script that is based on Vedic Scripts of the Indus Valley Civilization (makes sense as southeast asia was heavily influenced by India) but Vedic script is in turn imported from Phoenician/Cunieform script.
@BAIYUE1 Bronze ware with "khoa dau" on them were found in modern day Vietnam. However, it cannot be proven at this time that these bronze ware belonged to the ancient Vietnamese. There is simply no evidence to show that to be the case. The only connection is that they were discovered in within the territory of Vietnam.
No,you wrong.Bronze drum was recorded in Vietnamese history from Han dynasty.Tell about process to gain independent of Baiyue(ancestor of Vietnamese) people before HAn dynasty.
@BAIYUE1 Sigh.....I think I've wasted my whole time here. tibetan has nothing to do with Han. Tibetan is part of the Tibeto-Burman branch of the Sino-Tibetan superfamily. But it is not Han. You are essentially saying Dutch is Hindi because they are both Indo-European languages. Tibetan shares a family with Han, but they are not the same thing. Rather, both Han and Tibetan are DIFFERENT parts of a greater whole.
@BAIYUE1 It's like talking to a wall. What's wrong with you? Tibetan is not Han because they weren't involved with the founding of the Han Dynasty. Cantonese and Fujianese are Han because they were Hans that just migrated to these regions, and the language they speak is Han. I thought I showed you that by providing you with an example. I guess it fell on deaf ears.
In early Han dynasty,Cantonese belongs Nan yue kingdom,and Minyue kingdom still independent(Fujianese),so I think Han language don't have more influence than Baiyue people.
Cantonese actually change when Tang dynasty collapsed and north chinese started migrate to south china.
@BAIYUE1 There was no Cantonese people nor Cantonese language during the Han dynasty, there also wasn't Mandarin langauge or Hokkien language. There was Middle Chinese. The Nanyue and Minyue spoke an archaic Mon-Khmer language. The term "Canton" is coined by the Hans when we came down and settled there. A couple of decades into the Western Han Dynasty, Nanyue was conquered. Minyue, however, held its ground until Eastern Han Dynasty
In that time,Han is merely invaded Nan yue and min yue,so it is not prove that Cantonese and fukkienese is Han chinese,they has Baiyue blood in their body.
@BAIYUE1 THAT WAS 2000 YEARS AGO. What the F*ck is wrong with you? we have been migrating down to the south for 2000 frakking thousand years. Whatever Baiyue blood was there is frakking diluted and is AT BEST an admixture with only traceable mitochondrial DNA, and in fact that is what the research shows: with mostly Y Haplogroup O3 in Han Chinese populations of Southern China, which occurs less in Non-Han cHinese populations like the Zhuang.
@BAIYUE1 I don't want to argue history with you but you just CANNOT claim that the Baiyue civilization was as great as the Chinese one. That's like saying Baiyue was at one point EQUAL TO ROME (which Ancient China was). What exactly in history can you even use to justify the idea that the Baiyue tribes were an established empire like the Roman Empire? Baiyue were more like the Germans at that time.
In the Qin Dynasty Chinese troops moved southward and conquered the Baiyue territories, and many Han people began settling in the Lingnan area. This migration led to the Chinese language being spoken in the Lingnan area.
@BAIYUE1 After Zhao Tuo was made the Duke of Nanyue by the Qin Dynasty and given authority over the Nanyue region, many Han people entered the area and lived together with the Nanyue population, consequently affecting the lifestyle of the Nanyue people as well as stimulating the spread of the Chinese language.
@BAIYUE1 I do agree that the baiyue language had influenced Chinese. But the influence is minimal. and why just Cantonese? When the Baiyue kingdoms of Wu and Yue were part of the Spring and Autumn period of Chinese history, their language had already started to influence Archaic Chinese, though not in grammar, just loanwords. This was before Chinese developed into its branches, so Baiyue words exist even in Mandarin, via the north, exist in Japanese and Korean and Mongolian as well.
@BAIYUE1 There are Baiyue words in Japanese and Korean, but there are also Japanese words in Vietnamese today via counterinfluence from Japan. But as I said before, Cantonese is a Sinitic language. It's structure and grammar is COMPLETELY Sinitic. There are Baiyue LOANWORDS. And several Baiyue inflections used in colloquial speech. But simply compare a sentence between the two and you'll see the difference. Say something in Vietnamese and I'll compare it to Cantonese.
You think you are true,but i think it is not true.So it is not mean I'm a wall.I don't agree with all of your argument.
Because it doesn't have logic.
I tell you that "many chinese think Baiyue has not civilization, but it is not true.Baiyue has civilization,and has kingdom of Yue people".And civilization of chinese in yellow river is great,but civilization of Baiyue in south yangzi river is great also. And I think Baiyue has great influence to Cantonese or Fujianese.....
@BAIYUE1 none of your arguments have logic in them. Logically, you'd provide me with proof that shows me how similar Vietnamese and Cantonese are. Well, you've shown me nothing. Whereas I've shown you how different the two are in a simple sentence as "I want to go to the beach." How do you define "great?" I'm curious.
You forget one thing ,Vietnamese,Cantonese,Fukkienese,...influenced by Baiyue people(Bach Viet).So actually,they also have Baiyue language,this is root of Vietnamese.
@BAIYUE1 What do you mean Han has to speak one language? Do you know how languages work? Vikings speak Icelandic, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, all different languages but all are Norse. Just like all Chinese languages are Sinitic. Do you know how many languages the Romans and the Indians speak? How many times do I have to prove to you that Cantonese is linguistically closer to Archaic Han language than Mandarin? I thought we established that.
You forget many other things, the so-called influence of Bai-yue language is minimal compared to the influence the Hans who settled in Canton and Fujian had on the Baiyue. Why do you keep holding on to the silly idea that Cantonese people are non-Hans? or that each Chinese language is a separate ethnic group? Do you KNOW what Han actually mean? By your logic, Mandarin speakers are Jin and Manchurian.
Cantonese has both Yue blood and chinese blood.It is true.I don't deny it.But it still see more Yue people in Cantonese than chinese feature.It is my opinion.
@BAIYUE1 "Chinese" feature? What are you smoking? There is no single Chinese feature. Every freaking town has its own feature in China. Northern Chinese look like Koreans (well, I look like a Korean and I'm Cantonese), so that means they have Korean blood. Shanghainese look like Okinawans and southern Japanese people, so they have Japanese blood. It's because to a certain extent, there were intermarriages. However, only in mitochondrial DNA.
@BAIYUE1 Of course Japanese and Korean are not Han. I was using the amount of loanwords they have from Chinese to illustrate a point: that loanwords cannot be used to demonstrate genitive relation between languages. Korean and Vietnamese both have 60-70% of Han Chinese words in them. But neither one are related to Han. Tibetan has less Han Chinese loanwords, but it is much much more related to Han cognitively.
@BAIYUE1 other English words of Asian origin: "bokchoy," "chop chop," "coolie," "cumshaw," "gung ho," "junk," "kowtow," the expression "lose face," "shaman," "soy," "tea," "tycoon," "typhoon." Again, is English an Asian language? No, to study a language, you have to look at its grammatical structure and back bone. English is Germanic. And Cantonese is Sinitic.
@BAIYUE1 Look, I'm not trying to make Baiyue a lesser race or anything. Truth is, they were in fact more sophistocated at that time than the ancient Japanese were. But you cannot compare their civilization with the Chinese civilization, or he Roman, or the Greek, or the Persian, or the Indus Valley or the Egyptians in the same light because it'd only be unfair. Not saying chinese are better people, it's just somehow we got a headstart on things.
@BAIYUE1 Anyway I don't want to argue with you anymore. There was considerable influence on Huaxia culture from the Baiyue. But the languages like Cantonese and Hokkien spoken today are linguistically Sinitic. They are only related to the Yue languages via borrowed words and phonetic influence. Think about it, the words "ketchup" "wok" "skosh" in English are from Cantonese and Japanese. Does that make English an Asian language?
@BAIYUE1 Those were not kingdoms, not in the sense of the Chinese kingdoms. They were tribal at that time, Chinese kingdoms had recorded written history for more than a millennium already and an establish political and ruling system that was feudal and quite sophisticated. That's why the Baiyue allowed themselves to be sinicized in the first place.
@BAIYUE1 the Kingdoms of Wu and Yue in the Spring and Autumn periods were Baiyue tribes. They were sinicized and completely adopted huaxia culture. Just like Rome completely adopted Greek culture. Wu and Yue became essentially Chinese. the Baiyue tribes who were to more south, those that did not become siniczed were warred with. But eventually most were sinicized. The old Vietnamese written system chữ nho is evidence for the sinicization of the Nanyue
@BAIYUE1 The native Vietnamese numbers are as follows: Một - One - 1 Hai - Two - 2 Ba - Three - 3 Bốn - Four - 4 Năm - Five - 5 Sáu - Six - 6 Bảy - Seven - 7 Tám - Eight - 8 Chín - Nine - 9 nhất, nhi, tam, etc. are sino. Native Korean numbers: han, dul, set, net, da seot, yeo seot, il gop, etc. Native Japanese: hito, futa, mi, yon, itsu, mu, nana, etc.
@BAIYUE1 Like said, before Han and after Tang has a period of 1000 YEARS in between. you'd think very large populations would have moved around a bit in that time.
By the time Panyu was RENAMED Guangfu (Prefecture of Guang) BY THE HAN MAGISTRATES in 220 AD, it was center of Han administration in South....for pretty much the rest of the centuries until now. And since it was the center of Han government in Guangdong province, it's mainly ethnic Huaxia that resided there. Like you said, the non-huaxia probably lived in the villages. But I'm sure ever since the Western Han, Chinese have been settled there. We came with troops and infantry for crying out loud.
@BAIYUE1 I am American. I studied anthropology and linguistics at UCLA. I never went to Mandarin school. when I was Hong Kong, instruction was given in English and Cantonese. No Mandarin. If you cannot tell me what a Sprachbund is, or what links English and Hindi, then it is you who need to research more.
what music is this?
05werewolf 2 weeks ago
I'm culturally Indonesian Javanese but my paternal great grandfather was immigrant from Hokkien Southern Minan. It's nice knowing one of my ancestry language. Happy Chinese New Year everyone! :-)
suzzannamaniest 1 month ago
FULL OF "SAI" FROM YOU ALL!
I wish I am not a Chinese!
engchoonduck 3 months ago
@prophetluongsucks One Singaporian (hokkien) guy said me that cantonese sounds closer to viennamese
alberthepooh 8 months ago
很好听的台湾歌。不晓得楼下在吵啥昧：）
t12312003 9 months ago
I wonder why the title of this video is Hokkien Dialect, shouldn't the title be the name of the song "金包银"? Does anyone go around putting English MV's and name them "English Language"? Or put a Jay Chou MV and name it "Mandarin Language"?? So weird...
huodaxia 10 months ago 2
@prophetluongsucks
DO you know one slogan in Mandarin campaign in Singapore "Mandarin is truly chinese"
So I think you are only slave of Mandarin,ha ha ha,or you are Mandarin.so funny!
BAIYUE1 10 months ago
you are all idiots, stfu..
Wodz30 10 months ago
Chinese mixed with Indians, Arabs, Turks, and other non-Han. We are a mix. I will admit that my ancestors are from northern china and my ancestors are from a small village along Hokkien coast where researchers believe still carry on cultures prior to Chinese "invasion".Some North Chinese think they're an ethnic minority when the locals consider them as Han. I met a 100% Mongol who considers herself Cantonese when her Mandarin accent is from Dongbei. Sad she doesn't want to be Mongol.
wwlee5 1 year ago
If you think about it, the area that Mandarin-speakers reside today use to be Dongyi and Xianbei Kingdoms. Korean and Mongolian kingdoms, and also at one point Jin kingdoms. All of these are not Hans. so, using your own logic, Mandarin itself should NOT be Han.
gariadara 1 year ago
Cantonese simply means Han people from the province of Canton. Cantonese is not an ethnic minority because they are not a separate ethnic group. In England, people from London are called Londoners and people from Manchester are called Mancs, they can speak with very different accents bordering on being dialects, but both are ethnically English. People from Wales, however, are not English, but Welsh ethnically and they speak an entirely unrelated language that is Celtic.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Londoner can understand manchester?right?
But Cantonese can't understand mandarin,and mandarin also.
England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales become UK(united kingdom).
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Not necessarily. An Englishman brought up in the "Queen's English" who has never heard a Manc or-let's use something further-a Yorkshireman speak, may not understand the other person at first . Cantonese and Mandarin are mostly mutually unintelligible, but they are of the same language family. Do you know what a language family is? They are both Sinitic family languages. Hmong language is a language belonging to the Tai-Kradai language superfamily.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh are united but they acknowledge their ethnic differences. The Englishmen are descended from the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. These were GERMANIC tribes that came from Continental Europe and spoke a GERMANIC language. English is a GERMANIC language. Irish, Scots, and Welshmen are CELTIC peoples, NOT GERMANIC. They spoke CELTIC languages, namely Gaelic (Irish and Scots) and Brythonic (Welsh, Manx, and Cornish).
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
As research,Cantonese closer to ZHuangzu than mandarin.So Can we put cantonese in to Tai-kadai?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 What? How is Cantonese in any shape or form close to Zhuangzu? And what the hell is Zhuangzu? Cantonese has a small amount of words from the aboriginal Tai-Kradai languages that only exists in colloquialisms. In fact, Cantonese has a great deal more loanwords from Japanese and English. Is Cantonese Germanic and Ural-Altaic too? Mandarin has lots of influence from Manchurian and Mongolian, is it Tungustic now? The answer to both questions is no.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Do you know zhuangzu language?
If you don't know it,so you can't know about similar between zhuangzu language and cantonese languge?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 I'm a linguistics minor, so I have studied the basic structure of all Tai-Kradai languages. I can tell you that Cantonese and Zhuang have only a couple things they share: informal colloquialisms limited to less than 20 words. and a few habits in spoken sentence structure. By and large, The grammar, pronunciation, syntax, word order, inflections have little in common. the result of any similarity is due to the close proximity of the ancient southern Han speakers and the Zhuang.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
I don't say about structure of Zhuang and Cantonese,i want to mention to vocabulary between 2 language,and they has many similar.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 No, infact there is very little lexical similarity between the two languages. It is all limited to informal colloquialisms. Formal nouns and verbs in Cantonese are identical for the most part with all other Chinese languages. And you cannot use vocabulary to define genetic relation between two languages. As I said before English and French share 60% vocabulary at least. But English is German, French is Latin. Similarities are due to a Sprachbund.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Every chinese call "Cantonese is language"
But Cantonese always tell me "Cantonese is language,and they want to protect it".Do you think about it?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Sure. I see no reason why people in Hong Kong should be forced to give up Cantonese and speak Mandarin. Just like I see no reason why someone from Alabama needs to talk like a Yankee. They have their own linguistic identity. And for them, Cantonese is the true Chinese, and it's what's familiar to them. Mandarin-speakers should stick to Mandarin and Cantonese to cantonese. but We're all Hans. Hmong, however, have a different cultural identity, so they're not Hans.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Han is dynasty,now is ethnic.Why you don't use ,for example Qin.Tang.Song.Yuan.Ming or Quing instead of Han.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
Han is simply a term we coined after the Han Dynasty, because it was the zenith of our civilization. And it has been used in academia to denoted the people of the Chinese Civlization, so it stuck. But you're correct, Cantonese people in fact often refer to ourselves as Tongyan (Tang people). Song, Ming, are also ok. Yuan and Qing, not so much as one is Mongolian and the other Manchurian. The most correct cultural term is Huaxia (People of Splendor).
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 So, we can refer to Chinese as Huaxia from now on if you wish. Hua (refers to the majesty regality of the clothing of people) Xia (either refers to the Xia Dynasty or the "rigidity" of our Code of Morals). Huaxia were the children of the Yellow Emperor, the "People of Splender and Piety." Very arrogant, yes I know. But I actually think that term was used by non-Chinese tribes to refer to us. Also "China" came from Chin, which is, of course, Qin.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Actually,In past Huangdi killed Sivuu and Shennong.But now Han chinese call Huangdi,Sivuu,and shennong is three ancestor of them. I can't understand it.Can you explain that?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 No, Huangdi is the legendary ancestor of the Huaxia. Not the other two. The other two gave rise to other ethnicities. But I do not entertain mythic stories. The Huaxia were probably an admixture of prehistory ancestors of various peoples. I'm sure an entire race of people could not have descended from one guy.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
But it is truly Story "Huangdi,shennong,Sivuu are ancestor of Han".You should research about it.I think this is very misunderstand with me.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 No, the huaxia only believe huangdi is their ancestor. Shennong (or Yan Emperor) came earlier and is a god. Nuwa and Fuxi were the other two Sovereigns and were like Adam and Eve and pretty much the parents of all human beings. If you want to take these stories so literally, I'm related to Jews and Germans, too.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
But Thailand call shennong is their ancestor,do you think about that?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 And we called Nuwa and Fuxi the ancestors of all human kind, what do you think about that?
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara More on language genesis. America was colonized by the English. In a mere 200 years, the accents have become completely different. And even within America, the East Coast, Midwest, South, West all have different accents and local dialects. If the information age did not happen and populations are separated for longer, different languages would develope from American English. Even today, English can be so different: "Fancy a plaster?" and " Wanna bandaid?" mean the same thing.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 However, the English became so powerful that the Welsh, SCots, Irish, etc. all adopted the English language as their language. However, this is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the Chinese Han situation. Think of Cantonese, Hokkien, and Hakka as all being analogous to the Germanic English (Anglo-Saxons), you can think of Mandarin speakers as the Angles and the Cantonese as the Saxons. And the Tibetans, Zhuang, Hmong, Uyghurs, etc. being analogous to the Celtic tribes of Britain.
gariadara 1 year ago
I think you're confused about what is an ethnic minority and what is Han. The Chinese Civilization was created by the Hans, the Hans have many different clans and tribes, but they are all Hans. Cantonese, Hakka, Hokkien, etc. are not ethnically different from one another, they are the same race, they are only names of provinces. Ethnic minorities refer to Hmong, Qiang, Tibetans, Mongols, Koreans, Bai, etc. now these are not place names, but names of non-Han foreign nationalities in China
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Firstly.i know clearly about ethnic minority and Han ethnic in china.
I want to asked you "In Han also has H'mong,has choang,...why don't put them in to Han?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 No. Han isn't Hmong. why would I put Hmong and Choang into Han? They are not related. It's like trying to put Arabs into the Danes....makes no sense whatsoever. Hmong and Choang are of FOREIGN ethnic identity. Their ancestors did not found the Han Dynasty. The Hans' ancestors did.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Siyou is ancestor of Miao(h'mong),but a part of Han also considered Siyou and Huangdi are both their ancestor.So what do you think about it?
In past Guangdong is Nan yue kingdom,Fukkien is Minyue kingdom,Shanghaiese is Wu yue,....So where are they?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 How many times do I have to tell you that the Hans conquered those kingdoms and drove the people out of the territory? In the past, America was Cherokee Kingdom, Mohican Kingdom, Shoshone Kingdom, where are they?
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
In past,has many case one country only can conquered other country,but can't assimilate them.do you think it is same with Han dynasty and other kingdom in southern china(or south yangzi river)?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 I never said the Hans assimilated. In fact, they didn't for the most part. The Han settlements were separate from the conquered peoples' settlements. Therefore there were less race mixing and thus the people there today are basically Han. Some tribes were sinicized, namely the Gou-Wu and Yu-Yue of the baiyue, but they became part of the Chinese Civilization as Early as the Spring and Autumn period.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 The Cantonese and the Hmong are as different from one another as the Russians and the Irish. I really don't know why you would want to identify Hmong with Han. Do you understand now? Cantonese is a SUBGROUP WITHIN the HAN IDENTITY. But Hmong is ALTOGETHER UNRELATED TO THE HAN IDENTITY. hmong is as different from me as a Japanese person. In fact, a Hmong is MORE different from me than a Japanese person.
gariadara 1 year ago
you know about Beowulf right? Well, this was what english looked like 1000 years ago:
Hwæt. We Gardena in gear-dagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon
translation:
Listen! We have heard of the glory in bygone days
of the folk-kings of the spear-Danes,
how those noble lords did lofty deeds.
gariadara 1 year ago
@asianBbOyy I love our language too :D
supahmonga47 1 year ago
HOKKIEN IS NOT HAN DIALECT
HOKKIEN IS LAGUAGE!
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
Hokkien is a dialect of the Min languages. Min is one branch of Sinitic (Han Chinese) languages, the other branch being Middle Chinese. Middle Chinese diverified into Guan (Mandarin), Wu, Yue (Cantonese), Xiang, and Gan languages later on. But both Min and Middle Chinese came from Old Chinese of the Oracle Bone era. Hokkien as a language appeared AFTER the Tang Dynasty, which came AFTER the Han Dynasty. It is in fact closest to Han Chinese during the Han Dynasty linguistically speaking.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Min is language of MinYue kingdom.And it can be mixed with language of north chinese migrants.But it's not dialect of Han.It is language.
Now madarin is truly language of Han chinese.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 There is no such thing as the "minyue" kingdom. Min and Yue are totally different.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
so crazy man! you want to write again history.
check it in internet "minyue"
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 I took linguistics and anthropology in college. Min is a branch of the Chinese language family. So is Cantonese. Linguistically, Cantonese is very close to Mandarin. Mandarin has Tungustic influences from Manchurian. It is funny how you reverse things, Cantonese is the most Han Chinese language that still exists today as it preserves much of the diction and phonology of the Han Dynasty. You know that the Turkic tribes from the north displaced the Hans to the south right?
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
If you say "Cantonese close to Madarin",I think you even don't have basic knowledge?
Cantonese actually different madarin.You can search it in internet,or listen madarin and cantonese.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 I speak both Mandarin and Cantonese fluently. They are phonologically different enough to be mutually unintelligible in most cases but they are grammatically related.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Mandarin is NOT "truly" language of Han Chinese. Mandarin had lost all word-final consonants other than "n." The Chinese language that was spoken during the Han Dynasty had word-final consonants like m, k, t, and p, in addition to n, which BOTH Min and Cantonese, as well as Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese preserve to this day. Mandarin has Tungustic (non-Han, Altaic) influences. Possibly Turkic too. Mandarin as a language only evolved centuries AFTER than Han Dynasty.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
No,900 millions Han chinese speak madarin as mother language.And It is reason why madarin is Han chinese language.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
Mandarin is of course a Han Chinese language. So are Hokkien, Cantonese, Shanghainese, Gan, Hakka, Jin, Dungan, Xiang. Cantonese is spoken by millions of Han Chinese as mother tongue. That makes it a Han Chinese language, not to mention Cantonese directly descended from Middle Chinese of the Han Dynasty. Han is so named after the Han Dynasty.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
I know which is "dialect of Chinese" actually is truly language.But chinese government still deny it.
And many chinese dialect now was replaced by madarin.And I think It is reason why Cantonese want protect their language before Madarin.They don't want cantonese disappear as hokkien in Taiwan or some shanghainese.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 You do not seem to understand linguistics. Cantonese and Mandarin and Hokkien as well as all the other "dialects" are indeed linguistically different enough to be considered different languages, however, they all belong to the same "clade" as in they all evolved from the same source. like Spanish and Italian and French, different languages, however, all are Romance languages and all 3 were once Latin and all 3 ethnic groups were once Romans.
gariadara 1 year ago
This is the same with Canto, Mand, Min,etc. All of these are Han. And their respective speakers were all once people of the Han Dynasty. Just like the Romans. However, Vietnamese is completely different. If you think of the Chinese languages as the Romance languages, Vietnamese would be more comparable to Turkish or Finnish. In other words, Vietnamese language is Genetically unrelated to Sino-Tibetan languages like Cantonese and Mandarin, all similarities are considered Sprachbund.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
yea,If you speak cantonese same madarin from structure to vocabulary ,i can say "you are liar"
Actually,Cantonese different madarin from structure to vocabulary with 70%.I'm sure that.
And I think Cantonese who indentify cantonese is language,protected their language better another language as hokkien in Taiwan,shanghainese......
now most young hokkien can't speak hokkien good as their parents,some of hokkien even can't speak hokkien language.shame on them.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Cantonese is a separate language linguistically. I thought I clarified that already. However both Mandarin and Cantonese are Sinitic languages, whereas Vietnamese is a Mon-Khmer language. Han Chinese people were around thousands of years before Mandarin even existed. Nobody spoke Mandarin during the Han Dynasty. They spoke something similar sounding to Cantonese or Minnan. Which part of that don't you understand?
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Vietnamese use 70% sino_Viet words,not only mon-khmer.
If Han dynasty speak Cantonese or Minnan is past,why Chinese government don't choose Cantonese and Minnan is official language of Chinese,and of Han chinese?
Why Most chinese is Han chinese,they must to speak madarin of Manchu?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 A language with LOAN WORDS from a different language doesn't mean it's related to said different language. English has 60% French loan words and has been heavily influenced by Latin but it is STILL a Germanic language, not a Romance language. The Han Dynasty did not speak Cantonese or Minnan or Mandarin, or ANY modern Chinese languages. All of these EVOLVED FROM the Old Chinese spoken during the Han Dynasty. Cantonese was spoken by the Nan Han Dynasty.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
When 2 language has similar world.It's mean that has exchange world between 2 ethnic in past.
I think that Vietnam has world from Baiyue people(luo yue,Ou yue,min yue,...) and some dynasty of china as Han,Tang dynasty and some of Mon khmer.
actually sound of Vietnam has southern feature as ng,s,l...,has more tone than madarin
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Old Chinese also has more tones than Mandarin. Sounds like ng, k, m, t, p, were all in Classical Chinese spoken during the Han Dynasty, but Mandarin has LOST these sounds whereas ALL southern Chinese languages PRESERVED them because the Han Chinese Song Dynasty was FORCED TO THE SOUTH OF THE YANGTZE RIVER by northern Non-Han invaders. Vietnamese has loanwords from Chinese, that's all. Just like Japanese and Korean. the CORE of the language is unrelated.
gariadara 1 year ago
When the KMT met in Beijing, Cantonese lost to Mandarin as being the national language by ONE VOTE. Had one more cabinet member voted on Cantonese as the common language, it would now be the official language of China. Since the founding fathers of modern China: Sun Yat-sen, Soong Sisters, Chiang Kai Shek, etc. were mostly ALL from Canton, they had to convince the North that the new government would work, so some of them felt they needed to gain ground by supporting the northern language.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Why in Guangdong,people don't teach Cantonese in school as in hokong?
I think it is not matter when they teach both cantonese and madarin for cantonese,because they speak cantonese as mother language,and only use madarin to communicate with people in other province.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 They most certainly do teach Cantonese in schools in Canton. In public schools they have to give lessons in Mandarin due to the Communist Government's edict. I told you, they voted Mandarin to be the national dialect. hong kong is a different government, so Cantonese is taught. This is due to politics, not anthropology. In an anthropology context, Cantonese is indubitably a Han Chinese language, as it sounds closer to Chinese spoken during the Han Dynasty.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Chinese always tell me that "cantonese,madarin,min,wu,hakka,gan..." all of them is Han language.
But why more and more people speak madarin?why?
and less and less people speak hokkien(in taiwan),shanghainese in mainland,cantonese in some area of mainland,..
I think it is not suitable for order of chinese government with group language include Cantonese,Min,Wu,,...
People as you always only protect one thing "it is Han dialect".But you can't protect it when it was replaced by madarin
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 What you're talking about is a political situation. What is happening is one Han language is being forced to replace another Han language by THE GOVERNMENT. But governments and politics have nothing to do with the historical and cultural aspect of languages. Fact is, all of these are Han languages. Just like both French and Spanish are Romance languages. Do you understand? Stop mixing politics with linguistics. Cantonese hasn't been replaced by Mandarin. Its cultural strength is strong
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Actually,I don't want to say about Cantonese.Because I know Cantonese is the second strongest after Madarin. Madarin is official language in China,but Cantonese is official language in Hokong and Macau.
So I think Han chinese also say about Madarin and shanghainese.
So what happen with other language as shanghainese,hokkien,...
Have anyone protect them.When they are ancient language of Han in past?
answer me?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 What do you mean has anyone protected them? They are still being spoken. Hokkien has bloomed in Taiwan. Shanghainese is very close to Mandarin and sounds very close to it. But it is being spoken and in fact, in recent times, people have been trying to increase its impact by setting up Shanghainese radio and TV stations, etc. All Chinese languages come from the ancient Han spoken language. That language no longer exists, it exists only in the form of writing. Things change in history.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 No one speaks Latin anymore. You can't "protect" a language. Because you have no control over how it evolves over long periods of time. English, in 2000 years, will likely look and sound NOTHING like it is today. It sounds nothing like it did 2000 years ago, so it's safe to assume it will continue to change. English was also spoken by practically no one 2000 years ago, Now, it is the Lingua Franca of the world. Language is malleable, it is always changing and evolving.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 So, languages change. The people who speak them also.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Yes ,I know.Because our language also change from 2000 years to now.
But it is past.Now we respect our language,want to develope it.
Because we know that although language change,but it still reserve our ancestor language.And it is great gift of ancestor for us.We always protect it.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 You can try your best to preserve the status quo of your language, so to speak, but change is inevitable. How many generations do you think people can keep this "protection" up? 10? 20? that's a few centuries but what about millennia? Sooner or later, all human endeavors will succumb to the force of History. you never know what will happen, china may not exist in 200 hundred years' time. human beings may evolve to communicate via thoughts and language may become useless altogether.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
It is your think.
But i think different.We can do our best to protect our language.
So I wonder whether Madarin people have think as you?Why they don't forgive madarin language ,and use Cantonese or Fukienese which is ancient language of Han.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Because they don't speak it. Latin is the ancient language of the Roman Empire, you don't see the French relearning it.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
But Cantonese or fukkienese or hakka is ancient language of Han.So why madarin don't learn Cantonese or fukkienese or hakka.
It is not fairly.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Those who do move to hong Kong, they do learn Cantonese. You can't survive in hong kong without learning Cantonese and English. I never said Cantonese, Hokkien and Hakka are ancient Chinese, Ancient chinese no longer exists. I said they are grammatically and phonetically CLOSER to ancient Chinese than Mandarin is. Phonetically, loanwords in Japanese and Korean are also CLOSER to ancient Chinese than Mandarin, because these two languages borrowed from Chinese during the Han and Tang.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Your question makes no sense. Why would anyone learn another language if that language's cultural impact is less than your own? Why would an American learn Greek or Latin or Scots English or Anglo-Saxon if he/she lives in Wisconsin and isn't studying Linguistics? Learning a language needs to be practical. People from Beijing don't need to learn cantonese, just like many people in hong kong do not bother to learn Mandarin. If we need to communicate, we'll use English.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
wait,wait.
It is only your opinion.
So many chinese as cantonese,shanghainese,fukkienese,...always say with me that "madarin is manchu language and their language is ancient of Han language"
So do you agree with those chinese opinion?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Mandarin is NOT manchu language, it is a Han Chinese language that has been influenced by Monglian, Turkic, Hunnic, and other Tungustic (Manchurian) languages. Southern Chinese languages did not get influence from these northern sources. IT is correct that Cantonese preserves more Old Chinese features. It is MORE LIKE Ancient Han Chinese than Mandarin is. But that doesn't mean Cantonese IS Old Chinese. Old Chinese, like Latin, only exists in very very OLD written records.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
I know chinese communicate by Han character,right?
So now chinese madarin government won cantonese to set up madarin in to official language of China and Han chinese.
So i have question.Hokkien has to do to protect hokkien language and maintain hokkien's culture.Whether hokkien will disapear,was replaced by madarin?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 I'm not interested in politics, so I will not attempt to answer your question about government issues. Hokkien's culture is more or less the same as Mandarin or Cantonese culture. Because all these are Han Chinese cultures. There are only regional differences. This is true with any other nation. In the USA, people from Alabama are very different from people from Chicago, it's almost a different culture. In Japan, people from Hokkaido are very different from people from Tokyo.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
USA is united nation.RIght?
But China don't admit that.
And even chinese government put all cantonese,madarin,fukkien,hakka,... into Han ethnic which is one of 56 ethnic in china.
So if madarin is language to communicate in china,what happen with remain language as Cantonese,fukkienese,hakka,....?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 I hope you can now tell the difference. Cantonese, hokkien, Shanghainese, Gan, Mandarin, etc. all being to a single ethnicity: Han. The other 55 ethnic groups have NOTHING to do with the founding of the ancient Chinese civilization (the Hans) but were either conquered or foreign born. Many of these non-Chinese minorities don't even have sinicized surnames. They have surnames like Gusumurong, Aishin Gioro, Bateer, Temur, etc. Not your typical Han style.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
One hokkienese tell me that "in taiwan has 75% hokkienese,but now only 30% can speak hokkienese.
So if hokkienese contribute to Han culture,why Taiwan government don't use hokkienese as official language,or maintain hokkienese?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 You still don't understand. Hokkienese are not a separate race. Hokkienese isn't even a real word as there are not Hokkien"ese" people. There are Han people who are FROM Fujian Province (Hokkien Province) and speak a Han Chinese language of that area. It's like if i'm from Sweden and you're from Norway, but we're BOTH Vikings. Get it?
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
What do you based on to prove "hokkien is not separate race"?
Language,culture,origin,DNA,....?
In earlier BC,don't have Han dynasty in south china?So why now they also are Han while Han is ethnic ?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 "Language,culture,origin,DNA,....?"
Language is SInitic. Origin is Han. DNA has been shown to be the same as the rest of Han Chinese.
"In earlier BC,don't have Han dynasty in south china?So why now they also are Han while Han is ethnic ?"
Uh....the Han Dynasty was in south China. It stretched from the Korean peninsula in the north to Fujian, Canton in the south. Check your geography dude.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
DNA is different between north and south chinese.I can sure that.Firstly, you lied about DNA.
Origin of Han is Qin dynasty in north yellow river.And so you lied about Han dynasty is south china.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Haha, I'm lying? Do more research before you make a statement please. This is getting tiring. Of course there is genetic difference between north and south Chinese. However, when compared with non-Chinese populations, such as vietnamese or Thai or Korean, genetic studies show that any Chinese person is genetically distant from these nonChinese groups.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
NO,you wrong.DNA of south china as cantonese,zhuang,or h'mong is closer than north china.I repeat that it is sure.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Show me the research then. If I have DNA of Hmong people, then how come I look nothing like a Hmong or a Zhuang? I am 5'11", have skin whiter than an italian woman, and eyes and cheekbones so sharp and narrow I get mistaken for being Korean. If you have to insist I'm something which I'm not, good for you, whatever floats your boat. I go to a Vietnamese market I NEVER get mistaken for being Vietnamese. But people can't tell if I'm Chinese, korean or Japanese, there is a reason for that.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Qin was actually southwest of the Yellow River FYI. It was the Kingdom of Zhao that was north at the Yellow River. The Kingdoms of Chu and Wei were south of the Yellow River and in fact south of the Yangtse. By the Western Han Dynasty, the Chinese have conquered most of the south including the regions of what is today Guangdong and Guangxi. By the Eastern Han, they have conquered the Minyue Kingdom to the Southeast. You have some Googling to do.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Actually,almost chinese dynasty invaded other kingdom,but they only live in center of new kingdom(which they invaded).People live around is not chinese.
You can imagine that "people live in city is chinese,but in all of village is non-chinese".So they only draw map cover other land,but assimilate other ethnic is different story.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 It's all very complex, the process of culture assimilation. But it's certain that many people were simply DRIVEN OUT of the conquered region or were NOT assimilated. Look at Tibet. We NEVER intermarried the Tibetans. Just like we probably only intermarried the Baiyue people very little. Well I'm from the Big City. My parents came from Guangzhou, the center of Han rule. My ancestry is from Shandong (that was like 10 generations ago) so I'm definitely Han.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Firstly,GUangzhu is not Han center.In Han dynasty,It is Nan yue kingdom.
North chinese just migrate with large quantity from Tang dynasty collapse.SO you can see Cantonese call themselves is Thongnhan(Tang people).
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 No the city of Guangzhou was called Panyu. And it was annexed by the Han Dynasty in 111 BC (Welsh, Frank (1974). Maya Rao. ed. A Borrowed Place: The History of Hong Kong)
Nanyue was conquered during Western Han Dyansty. Minyue was not. But Minyue was conquered in the EASTERn Han Dynasty.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Yes,I know.In Han dynasty most people in Nan yue is Baiyue people,not chinese.
North chinese actually migrate more to Guangdong after Tang dynasty collapse.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 huaxia has been migrating to Guangdong since the Han Dynasty and they MASS FLOODED into Canton at the height of Tang. But also after. Yes. Me and my family and most people of Hong Kong are Chinese, not some ancient displaced Baiyue, because our ancestors are likely the ones from the southern Chinese migration.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
It is reason why Han chinese has many dialect,actually language as cantonese or mandarin..
It is because they mix from north chinese and other Baiyue kingdom,with Cantonese is Tang and Nan yue,wih fukkien is Song and Min yue,with Shanghainese is Wu,....
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 No, the reason is not mixing of languages. The reason is geographical isolation. Southern China has much more mountains and rivers that separate populations and made it difficult for people to constantly come in contact with one another, and so this gives rise to isolation. With isolation, the same language will develop locally without outside influence, soon, the same language develops different accents, accents evolve in to dialects, dialects evolve into distinct language.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
You make me funny.
SO you think before Han invaded south yangzi river,don't have any people in south china.
You wrong.Baiyue has big population.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 I know Baiyue had large population. Just not as large as the huaxia. And when our infantry and troops came down with our noblemen and settlers, like, hundreds of thousands of them all in one week's time.......trust me, it was like Israel and the Gaza Strip.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Yes,I know.But i tell you "chinese live in city,but Baiyue live in village around that city".And Baiyue is much more many time with chinese troops.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Like I said. in 1000 years' time, and with Chinese troops having much more superior technology and organization.....and chinese legions numbered in the thousands mate. not a small number. sometimes, tens of thousands if they needed to set up a castle or a fort.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Ha ha ha,You think Baiyue has not civilization.Wrong.Baiyue has civilization,has war technology.
But Quin has many troops(500 thousands troops),but Baiyue still win and killed Qin general.
Han lies about Baiyue people.you should research again Baiyue peole,who has southern civilization is not less than Huaxi.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Oh god....this is not a competition about who is less or more dude. It's historical fact that the Chinese Civilization was the lead in cultural development. If Baiyue was not less than the Huaxia forces somehow, than I guess it'd be called the People's Republic of Baiyue now and not China. If Baiyue was better and greater, I guess the Japanese wouldn't write in Kanji and drink green tea and the Romans wouldn't have mass imported silk from the Tang Dynasty.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
I don't compare,but it is true.
after you research about Baiyue civilization,i will continue speak with you.
You don't know about Baiyue people.so have many misunderstand of Chinese about Baiyue people.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 It seems you're the one who doesn't know much. Can you name the form of government of the Dien Yue? How was their court structured? Who was prime minister? how was he or she elected?
You are comparing. You're trying to elevate the culture of the Baiyue. I understnad that. And in fact by the time of the Minyue Kingdom of the Western Han, Minyue culture was pretty much identical to the Chinese one due to cultural influence. Like the English being similar to the Romans.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
I spell it from Vietnamese language .Dien yue is kingdom placed in Yunnan province.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Well tell me what their form of government was during the Warring State Period? Better yet, what was it during the Zhou Dynasty?
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 chữ nho should be the sole attestation to sinitic cultural influence.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Yes,But we has other character before "Chu nho" is "Khoa dau"
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Well "Khoa dau" cannot be determined to be associated with ancient Vietnamese peoples at this point. They could belong to Tai or pre-Thai or Muong tribes instead of the Nanyue tribes. In any case, the characters are shown to be derived from a general south-east asian script that is based on Vedic Scripts of the Indus Valley Civilization (makes sense as southeast asia was heavily influenced by India) but Vedic script is in turn imported from Phoenician/Cunieform script.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
"Khoa dau" is actually Vietnamese script ,and we are trying to read it.
And Zhuangzu has legend same with Vietnamese.DO you know it?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Bronze ware with "khoa dau" on them were found in modern day Vietnam. However, it cannot be proven at this time that these bronze ware belonged to the ancient Vietnamese. There is simply no evidence to show that to be the case. The only connection is that they were discovered in within the territory of Vietnam.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
No,you wrong.Bronze drum was recorded in Vietnamese history from Han dynasty.Tell about process to gain independent of Baiyue(ancestor of Vietnamese) people before HAn dynasty.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 so based on the examples I provided, do you think japanese and korean are sino-tibetan languages too? are they Han?
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Tibetan is sino-tibetan languages,and Tibetan is Han.No.
Similarly,Japanese,Korean are not Han.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Sigh.....I think I've wasted my whole time here. tibetan has nothing to do with Han. Tibetan is part of the Tibeto-Burman branch of the Sino-Tibetan superfamily. But it is not Han. You are essentially saying Dutch is Hindi because they are both Indo-European languages. Tibetan shares a family with Han, but they are not the same thing. Rather, both Han and Tibetan are DIFFERENT parts of a greater whole.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Tibetan is also Sino-Tibetan,but they are not Han.
So it is same with Cantonese or fukkienese,...
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 It's like talking to a wall. What's wrong with you? Tibetan is not Han because they weren't involved with the founding of the Han Dynasty. Cantonese and Fujianese are Han because they were Hans that just migrated to these regions, and the language they speak is Han. I thought I showed you that by providing you with an example. I guess it fell on deaf ears.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
In early Han dynasty,Cantonese belongs Nan yue kingdom,and Minyue kingdom still independent(Fujianese),so I think Han language don't have more influence than Baiyue people.
Cantonese actually change when Tang dynasty collapsed and north chinese started migrate to south china.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 There was no Cantonese people nor Cantonese language during the Han dynasty, there also wasn't Mandarin langauge or Hokkien language. There was Middle Chinese. The Nanyue and Minyue spoke an archaic Mon-Khmer language. The term "Canton" is coined by the Hans when we came down and settled there. A couple of decades into the Western Han Dynasty, Nanyue was conquered. Minyue, however, held its ground until Eastern Han Dynasty
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
You don't have basic knowledge of Baiyue
Don't joke me about Han chinese.
In that time,Han is merely invaded Nan yue and min yue,so it is not prove that Cantonese and fukkienese is Han chinese,they has Baiyue blood in their body.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 THAT WAS 2000 YEARS AGO. What the F*ck is wrong with you? we have been migrating down to the south for 2000 frakking thousand years. Whatever Baiyue blood was there is frakking diluted and is AT BEST an admixture with only traceable mitochondrial DNA, and in fact that is what the research shows: with mostly Y Haplogroup O3 in Han Chinese populations of Southern China, which occurs less in Non-Han cHinese populations like the Zhuang.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 I don't want to argue history with you but you just CANNOT claim that the Baiyue civilization was as great as the Chinese one. That's like saying Baiyue was at one point EQUAL TO ROME (which Ancient China was). What exactly in history can you even use to justify the idea that the Baiyue tribes were an established empire like the Roman Empire? Baiyue were more like the Germans at that time.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
There is no cantonese language as now,but Baiyue has influenced to Cantonese language now.DO you agree with this opinion?
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
In the Qin Dynasty Chinese troops moved southward and conquered the Baiyue territories, and many Han people began settling in the Lingnan area. This migration led to the Chinese language being spoken in the Lingnan area.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 After Zhao Tuo was made the Duke of Nanyue by the Qin Dynasty and given authority over the Nanyue region, many Han people entered the area and lived together with the Nanyue population, consequently affecting the lifestyle of the Nanyue people as well as stimulating the spread of the Chinese language.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 I do agree that the baiyue language had influenced Chinese. But the influence is minimal. and why just Cantonese? When the Baiyue kingdoms of Wu and Yue were part of the Spring and Autumn period of Chinese history, their language had already started to influence Archaic Chinese, though not in grammar, just loanwords. This was before Chinese developed into its branches, so Baiyue words exist even in Mandarin, via the north, exist in Japanese and Korean and Mongolian as well.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 There are Baiyue words in Japanese and Korean, but there are also Japanese words in Vietnamese today via counterinfluence from Japan. But as I said before, Cantonese is a Sinitic language. It's structure and grammar is COMPLETELY Sinitic. There are Baiyue LOANWORDS. And several Baiyue inflections used in colloquial speech. But simply compare a sentence between the two and you'll see the difference. Say something in Vietnamese and I'll compare it to Cantonese.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
You think you are true,but i think it is not true.So it is not mean I'm a wall.I don't agree with all of your argument.
Because it doesn't have logic.
I tell you that "many chinese think Baiyue has not civilization, but it is not true.Baiyue has civilization,and has kingdom of Yue people".And civilization of chinese in yellow river is great,but civilization of Baiyue in south yangzi river is great also. And I think Baiyue has great influence to Cantonese or Fujianese.....
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 none of your arguments have logic in them. Logically, you'd provide me with proof that shows me how similar Vietnamese and Cantonese are. Well, you've shown me nothing. Whereas I've shown you how different the two are in a simple sentence as "I want to go to the beach." How do you define "great?" I'm curious.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
And Han is ethnic,so has to one Han,no more.And Han has to speak one language.
All Cantonese,Mandarin,fukkinese,hakka,...are language,not dialect.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@gariadara
You forget one thing ,Vietnamese,Cantonese,Fukkienese,...influenced by Baiyue people(Bach Viet).So actually,they also have Baiyue language,this is root of Vietnamese.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BAIYUE1 What do you mean Han has to speak one language? Do you know how languages work? Vikings speak Icelandic, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, all different languages but all are Norse. Just like all Chinese languages are Sinitic. Do you know how many languages the Romans and the Indians speak? How many times do I have to prove to you that Cantonese is linguistically closer to Archaic Han language than Mandarin? I thought we established that.
gariadara 1 year ago
You forget many other things, the so-called influence of Bai-yue language is minimal compared to the influence the Hans who settled in Canton and Fujian had on the Baiyue. Why do you keep holding on to the silly idea that Cantonese people are non-Hans? or that each Chinese language is a separate ethnic group? Do you KNOW what Han actually mean? By your logic, Mandarin speakers are Jin and Manchurian.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Cantonese has both Yue blood and chinese blood.It is true.I don't deny it.But it still see more Yue people in Cantonese than chinese feature.It is my opinion.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 "Chinese" feature? What are you smoking? There is no single Chinese feature. Every freaking town has its own feature in China. Northern Chinese look like Koreans (well, I look like a Korean and I'm Cantonese), so that means they have Korean blood. Shanghainese look like Okinawans and southern Japanese people, so they have Japanese blood. It's because to a certain extent, there were intermarriages. However, only in mitochondrial DNA.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Of course Japanese and Korean are not Han. I was using the amount of loanwords they have from Chinese to illustrate a point: that loanwords cannot be used to demonstrate genitive relation between languages. Korean and Vietnamese both have 60-70% of Han Chinese words in them. But neither one are related to Han. Tibetan has less Han Chinese loanwords, but it is much much more related to Han cognitively.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 other English words of Asian origin: "bokchoy," "chop chop," "coolie," "cumshaw," "gung ho," "junk," "kowtow," the expression "lose face," "shaman," "soy," "tea," "tycoon," "typhoon." Again, is English an Asian language? No, to study a language, you have to look at its grammatical structure and back bone. English is Germanic. And Cantonese is Sinitic.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Look, I'm not trying to make Baiyue a lesser race or anything. Truth is, they were in fact more sophistocated at that time than the ancient Japanese were. But you cannot compare their civilization with the Chinese civilization, or he Roman, or the Greek, or the Persian, or the Indus Valley or the Egyptians in the same light because it'd only be unfair. Not saying chinese are better people, it's just somehow we got a headstart on things.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Can compare it.I'm sure that.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Anyway I don't want to argue with you anymore. There was considerable influence on Huaxia culture from the Baiyue. But the languages like Cantonese and Hokkien spoken today are linguistically Sinitic. They are only related to the Yue languages via borrowed words and phonetic influence. Think about it, the words "ketchup" "wok" "skosh" in English are from Cantonese and Japanese. Does that make English an Asian language?
gariadara 1 year ago
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@gariadara
Example of You"in Mandarin: Wo xiang qu shatan
in HK Cantonese: 'O seung hui satan
Vietnamese: Tôi muốn đi đến bãi biển
Japanese: Watashi ga sunahama de ikitai"
I see it somewhere ,so i think it is argument for Cantonese who don't want Vietnamese language has relationship with sino_tibetan group.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@gariadara
After Qin dynasty collapse ,Still has many kingdom of Baiyue in south yangzi river as Nan yue,Min yue,Dien yue,...
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Those were not kingdoms, not in the sense of the Chinese kingdoms. They were tribal at that time, Chinese kingdoms had recorded written history for more than a millennium already and an establish political and ruling system that was feudal and quite sophisticated. That's why the Baiyue allowed themselves to be sinicized in the first place.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
DOn't have "Baiyue allowed themselces to be sinicized".It is war between Baiyue and Huaxi.My friend.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 the Kingdoms of Wu and Yue in the Spring and Autumn periods were Baiyue tribes. They were sinicized and completely adopted huaxia culture. Just like Rome completely adopted Greek culture. Wu and Yue became essentially Chinese. the Baiyue tribes who were to more south, those that did not become siniczed were warred with. But eventually most were sinicized. The old Vietnamese written system chữ nho is evidence for the sinicization of the Nanyue
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1
I want to go to the beach
in Mandarin: Wo xiang qu shatan
in HK Cantonese: 'O seung hui satan
Vietnamese: Tôi muốn đi đến bãi biển
Japanese: Watashi ga sunahama de ikitai
notice the lexical identity of cantonese and mandarin. same words, but different pronunciations. Vietnamese, on the other hand, is much removed.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
We actually has 70% sino-vietnamese words.But we Vietnamesized it ,i read it with Vietnamese voice.
So if I explain for you,you can realize similar.
For simply example:1(nhất),2(nhị),3(tam,.....
red(hồng),white(trắng,bạch)...many,many,...
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1
Korean: 1 ( il ), 2 ( yi ), 3 ( sam ), red ( hong ), white ( bak )
Japanese: 1 ( ichi ), 2 ( ni ), 3 ( san ), red ( seki --- from Chinese "tsek" meaning "crimson"), white ( byaku)
Korean has 60% sino-Korean loanwords
Japanese has at least 30% but can be up to 60% or even more if people want to get formal
However, neither korean nor Japanese are Sino-Tibetan languages. Again, loanwords cannot be used to justify genitive identity between languages.
gariadara 1 year ago
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 more similarities between Korean, japanese and Cantonese:
word for "complicated"
Canto: fuktsap
Korean: pokjop
Jap: fukuzatsu
word for "simple"
Canto: kantan
Korean: kantan
Japanese: kantan
But in Mandarin, they are fuza and jiandan. Seems like Cantonese is more related to Korean and Japanese, doesn't it?
gariadara 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BAIYUE1"Yes,I know.But i tell you "chinese live in city,but Baiyue live in village around that city".
Then I guess that'd be the first time people wiped out entire villages.
gariadara 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 Like said, before Han and after Tang has a period of 1000 YEARS in between. you'd think very large populations would have moved around a bit in that time.
gariadara 1 year ago
By the time Panyu was RENAMED Guangfu (Prefecture of Guang) BY THE HAN MAGISTRATES in 220 AD, it was center of Han administration in South....for pretty much the rest of the centuries until now. And since it was the center of Han government in Guangdong province, it's mainly ethnic Huaxia that resided there. Like you said, the non-huaxia probably lived in the villages. But I'm sure ever since the Western Han, Chinese have been settled there. We came with troops and infantry for crying out loud.
gariadara 1 year ago
@gariadara
Information now is very much.
Why you don't research more,it is better than which you was taught in mandarin school.
BAIYUE1 1 year ago
@BAIYUE1 I am American. I studied anthropology and linguistics at UCLA. I never went to Mandarin school. when I was Hong Kong, instruction was given in English and Cantonese. No Mandarin. If you cannot tell me what a Sprachbund is, or what links English and Hindi, then it is you who need to research more.
gariadara 1 year ago