Gallileo was not tortured for trying to explain the Copernican understanding of the galaxy. Gallieo was actually on very good terms with the Catholic Church and remained a believer for his entire life. The pope at the time actually enjoyed Gallieo's ideas. later in life he did have some issues with the Church that had to do with a loan. This whole thing about the galaxy is a myth and has no basis in fact. He was never tortured for anything.
africa, asia, south america. While the catholic church is shrinking in europe, it has been sending missionaries everywhere and is growing in the third world. By being present in countries where population rates rise quickly, the catholic church profits from global population growth.
@kurtilein3 Absolutely correct, but I would go further in saying that government figures from the third world massively exaggerate the actual amounts of genuine believers, its a scandal that is killing millions from aids
I am in the Legion of Mary in Dublin and i have to say i visited a house and the views one person had made my heart sink listening to her, i should have left the house with the woman i was with, Our Lord told His Deciples that if ur not warmly welcomed by a house to shake the dust from ur feet and leave the house, i was shocked by what i heared, just like what poor Mr.Fry was taking about attacking the Church and Priests and the like and she could only see her way,very sad, very dishearting.
6:00 His thing about food was almost certainly off the cuff. But then he comes up almost instantly with the brilliant analogy of the the anorexic and obese. You can really tell how sharp and quick his mind is,
Billy Meier ,Theyfly.com go to ufo links to James Deardorff and futureofmankind. Find out for yourselve's how the Bullshit and evil religion's are not telling you about the most suppressed story in human history. See what really is the truth about our life.You will be amazed ,all your question's will be answered and how much we have been lied to by the religion's of this planet.
I wish the audience wouldn't clap or cheer at debates. This isn't directed at this video, but when the speaker makes a false, sensationalist comment they should not be applauded by the extremists who make up the majority audience. People should be quiet.
So when they go "woooo!!" in this one, I feel sad.
I understand the sentiment, but really, there isnt much you can do except for changes in audio equipment. Organizers WANT the audience to be blown away by the experience of the talk/event. And if i would be in the audience and hear something i really disagree with, like the earth being less than 10000 years old or L.Ron Hubbard being a war hero, i would not stay silent.
So, really, different microphones and audio editing appear to be the only options.
Most people in the UK consider Fry to be a national treasure. Im not from the UK, but i consider him a genious. And you wish death upon him? For what?
Okay, im assaultin your religion. Your god sucks, for letting evil happen he is evil. If he really did write the old testament, he is bloodthirsty and jealous and cruel and genocidal. Now hate me and leave Stephen Fry alone. By the way, all i said is based on facts. Did i mention that your sky-daddy is also jealous and proud of it?
Also, he is unable to appear in a TV studio, doesnt give interviews... Its so obvious he doesnt exist.
Sky daddy, did stephen fry write that for you? Are you one of stephen fry's little whore's from uganda? Pick yourself up, dust your self off, pull your pants up, don't let stephen fry rape your mind. (last comment, go to church preferably a Catholic Church)
You would have someone put to death for delivering a intellectual, factual & coherent arguement against a corrupted institution & a concept. I thought with a statement like that you'd be from some obscure third world region. But you live in America where freedom of speech & religion are built into your constitution.
Aren't you a shrewd, clever little bee, I would ask you where you are from, but it doesn't matter. Stephen isn't American, so your theory goes nowhere, the Constitution is for Americans not foreigners. don't reply
@Z1RR44 Ofcourse I'm going to reply. I'm well aware that he's not American because he's British and appears on our television screens on a regular basis. I'm not quite sure what stupid thing you're trying to say... Do you think you're allowed to shoot immigrants & foriegn visitors in your country? My "theory"... What theory? I didn't state any theory! You're a stupid, ignorant bigot that would be wise to shut up because you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
@thursday2117 your first comment makes no sense- it seems like you are appraising what they did because yes the middle ages were a troubled time but it does not give people ie the fucking catholic church the right to kill people because they do not hav the same views as each other! It seems in your empty headed world that is ok, well I can think of two other people who were like that: Adolph Hitler and Stalin!! So why don't you please join the other monsters of this world by fucking off please-
i see it differently: A debate where Christopher Hitchens (unfortunately recently died) and Stephen Fry are on one stage! Yes, its crushing for the opposition. But then, this is the stuff history is made of.
Oh, and, none of them represent the UK government and both stand against nationalism.
@kurtilein3 No a proper debate would be against formidible opposition, not the two opposite them, I loved nothing more than a good Hitch against those of equal or comparable intelligence. I did not say they represented the Britsh government or were pro-nationalism but those who know British and their personal history it could be interrupted that way.
@thursday2217 your argument is moot there are also books by historians showing that this was done so that was a stupid argument which seems to be the norm from you! and I'm not closed minded in fine wiv people having spiritual beliefs but I get pissed when those beliefs have a negative effect on the happiness of others- which the catholic church clearly has- your the empty headed one who is not able to accept the evidence that has been shown by people and Mr Fry that the catholic church isn't
@Wilsterjj14 Intelligence is not just measured by the ability to read. To understand anything about a topic one needs to consider a wide breath of information from many sources. You wouldn't for example rest your opinion of someone based solely on the testimony of their enemies.Once you know all the pertinent fact and place them in proper historical perspective you can come to conclusions based on critical thinking and not irrational prejudice and intolerance.
@thirsday2217 Firstly it doesn't matter at all- the church still did it so thy should be held accountable and in the Spanish inquisition it was headed by the CATHOLIC monarch Ferdinand the second. It was used as they thought any other practice of religion was evil as there could only be one god, complete coincidence they supposedly got the right one. I suggest you look up on your history and take a look at Wikipedia or anything to open ur sad little closed off mind- now please FUCK OFF AND DIE
@Wilsterjj14 Again your spin on the little information you have is wrong. There are several books on the subject written by universally respected historians that I could recommend to you but it's obvious you are not really interested in finding out what the truth is. You are the perfect example of a closed mind and an empty head.
@Wilsterjj14 Don't you see the irony in your F OFF AND DIE comment. The problem in the mid ages was that people demonized people who disagreed with them. They cast them as evil and this allowed them to do things like call for their "DEATH". From the looks of it you would have been one of these people. Of course the history there is not that simple but you are simple, close minded and empty headed.
@thursday2217 I can assure you mate I am not wrong torture was used to convert people to the catholic faith- I am not subverting it you are just ignoring parts of history that are convenient to you as they may make your points completely invalid. And it didn't have to be a teaching it was an action they committed
@Wilsterjj14 Where was it used for that purpose? When was it used for that purpose? Who was it carried out by for that purpose? What were the circumstances surrounding such use? Please give me the specifics of this allegation. And it matters very much whether it was the teaching of the Church.
@thursday2217 I wouldn't bring it up if I had no background knowledge- that would just show total arrogance towards the subject- like you are as you are trying,and failing, to Deride people for not having the same views as you- I can remember other people like that in history- Satlin and Hitler! The main poin of the four inquisitions (medieval,spanish,Portuguese and roman- suck on that knowledge ass licker) was to convert Jews and other people who practised other religions as they saw worshipp
@Wilsterjj14You are wrong.That is not historically accurate.I am not bothered by people who have a different viewpoint I am bothered by people who rewrite/distort history.The inquisition began as a means to root out heresy within the church.The inquisition occurred during a period of history that was often violent and where heresy whether in protestant or pagan circles was met with severe punishment.The Church should have resisted the norms of its day but sadly sometimes it did not.
@thursday2217 It is relevant that in mid evil times the connection between church and state was strong.Citizenship assumed religious uniformity, be it Islam in the Muslim world or Anglicanism in England.This complicated and sometimes compromised the Christian ideal.It has never been a Catholic teaching to bring people to the faith by force and the Inquisition was supposed to have power over baptized catholics only.
@thursday2217In some places the Inquisition was very passive in others it was used to bring peace where heretics were causing great upheaval and unrest. While no priest or monk could use torture the government and state bodies could and did. There was much suffering but it was common in every society of the time the Inquisition used it no more and usually less that other authorities.This was a barbaric time, in England people were being disembowelled and beheaded, not by Catholics.
@thursday2217 I could go on and on but this is as I have been reminded just Youtube .Obviously a flippant accusation that the Church is evil because of the inquisition is not appropriate and does not take into account the complexity of the topic.While the inquisition particularly in Spain became a tool of the government it's relevant to point out, more men and women were slaughtered in a couple weeks of the atheistic French Revolution than in a century of the Inquisition.
Hitchens and Fry are not stupid people and they both certainly know how to fact check something. Their rants are full of misrepresentations of history and fact. They misrepresent the Catholic Church and its teaching. They know they are doing this. They are not stupid but they think you are. They count on it. You should be offended but instead you make them your heroes. That "you" refers to the majority of people who respond positively to this video and to most of the audience at this farce.
Don't wanna make a fuss I mean people can believe whatever they want and I'm cool with that.... I have to say I totally agree with that brilliant man because of all the pain and suffering that has been felt by many people over the years which he makes evident- and he even misses out the big point that would support him: The inquisition- where so many people were tortured so that they would change faiths- you have to ask yourself is that what a good world force would do over a petty matter as r
@Wilsterjj14 Do you know anything about the inquisition that you didn't get from some movie. Have you read any work by actual historians. Can you tell me anything about the inquisitions that isn't just accusation and innuendo.
How unfortunate that his hatred for the individuals who have corrupted themselves manifests itself into a hatred for the Church overall. I was raised in the Catholic Church, and my experience was nothing but positive. Our priests performed charity work continuously, were good stewards of the tithes (little as they were), lived very poorly in an old run-down house. The nuns were charitable and strict and lived like paupers as well. I think Fry has a bias, based on his lifestyle.
@TomKaren94 I am more than happy that you and I for that matter, had similar upbringings. But I have met several people of different faiths who have not. I also have learned that all good deeds come in several shapes and sizes.
The nature of any church has an inherent flaw where the teachings negate logic , but the good work of any man or woman does not erase the horrific crimes of the past or present, no matter what faith if any.
Hatred? Thats a strong word. And his attack is not focused on individuals, but on the institution that rules the roman cathilc church in a totalitarian way. And that institution takes money from all catholics, and invests it in causes that you obviously disagree with. Right now, in the USA, the primary focus of the roman catholic church is to demonize contraception. With all the causes they COULD fight for, thats their number one priority above all else for 2012.
@TomKaren94 And what force for good in the world requires people to live 'very poorly' and 'like paupers'? And so should Fry have a bias based on his lifestyle, he was born a homosexual man and therefore he is what he is, and should NOT to be subjected to the demonization that the Church peddels against gay people to support their hysterical, antiquated teachings.
@sam15mohsen I would know what? That he says he hates the institution, not the individuals? I heard it. I just don't believe it because the remainder of the video doesn't bear it out. He's a utilitarian, obviously, and that philosophical difference results from his justification of his own lifestyle (which we all do) by concluding its not immoral though the Church says it is. That's it. He then attacks two individuals of the Church and points an accusing finger at the Bishop. Nothing new here.
@TomKaren94 You clearly didn't listen properly, as he stated that he doesn't condemn people who follow the church, but the institution itself. Of course there are good individuals within the catholic church, but what the institution promotes and stands for is extremely lacking in Christian values. Unfortunately for you, you have been conditioned by a corrupt organisation, to not listen, and not to learn or question. Good luck living in such a narrow view of the world.
@Chatterrful Oh, go take your self-righteousness and stick it where the sun don't shine. My observation is that Fry's supposed position and his statements are as inconsistent and hypocritically biased as anyone else's. He needs to justify himself, and this is the way he does it. Like I said, there's nothing new here... and actually there's nothing particularly intellectual either. If you can't see it, it's fine with me. The fact that I do just drives you crazy, though, doesn't it?
There's no saint's ,no god ,no satan, no angel's ,no heaven ,no hell ,there's not even any such thing as karma. What is there? You wanna know! Heard of Billy Meier? Well he is a messenger of truth, the real TRUTH. check out Theyfly.com, go to ufo links to James Deardorff and futureofmankind. All your question's will be answered there. Learn what's been suppressed from you, by your Bullshit and evil religion's
Here we go again another english man puting down the catholic religion,where have I heard this before oh yes 800 years of rule under british law. The catholic religion has sheltered so many and yes i understand the abuse that went on especially in my country with so many young people but no you can not declame the catholic church has not made a difference it has bonded countrys the catholic church is a force of good ,believe what you like and forget what your neighbour believes.
The catholic church is at this moment implying to uneducated masses in Africa that it is sinful to use condoms, and in doing so condemning millions to a protracted and painful death.
@XGralgrathor The Church is not implying anything.Her teaching is clear and straight forward. Its teaching is life affirming and speaks to the great dignity of every human person. Boy that sounds evil doesn't it?Sounds like the kind of thing that condemns millions to a protracted and painful death.It's Hitchens and Fry who are convincing the uneducated masses to believe a inaccurate history of the Church that simply is not true. Condemning them to a long and protracted ignorance.
O, but it is. In spades. Again I use homosexuality as an example: they wouldn't dare come out and state that they think that homosexuality is unequivocally evil, but it's still what they believe, and it's still the message that they really want to get out there. So they suggest, they imply, that it may be a problem, and that treatment is "appropriate".
@MrGralgrathor This is getting boring. They do not imply. The Church teaches that sex outside of marriage is a sin. That's it. You don't like that. Okay.
I thought you said "The Church doesn't declare people to be sinful" and here you say that it declares everybody who's ever had sex (outside marriage, which is most of all humans ever born) to be sinful. Anyway, it may declare such a thing, but that doesn't give it the right to, and it doesn't make it right or true. In fact, this teaching is a large contributor to teen pregnancy and STD spread.
Frankly, in my opinion their teachings are basically one big exercise in apologetics. They know the scripture they follow is not relevant to and in many ways contradict today's knowledge of reality, and therefore they need to re-interpret, and re-re-interpret, and inject many new words and new translations and new meanings into it, and write encyclicals with papal decrees to try and cover up that really, it's all just bs.
@XGralgrathor Have you read the Bible? Not relevant? How is today's reality different from the reality when it was written. People are still people. We are not more sophisticated. Still have all the same weaknesses, hopes, dreams, needs and desires. The Church's teaching has remained constant.
@XGralgrathor Okay tell me how it differed. Reality changed in what way. Yes our knowledge of the way things work has grown thru science. People have not changed. The Bible isn't a book about how it all works it about what it all means. Very relevant. The atheist believes there is no meaning. To Christians life is rich with meaning, purpose, beauty and light stretching on into eternity.
Are you seriously suggesting that our understanding of reality today is the same as it was 3000 years ago? I mean, seriously? The whole development of science, the enlightenment just passed you by? Didn't register with you? Not to mention all the sociological developments, equal rights movements, andsoforth?
Nah, kid, if that's what you're arguing, then we're done. I'm okay with slightly odd, but that's just raving stark mad.
@XGralgrathor I suppose my argument is too nuanced for you.You are not responding to what I wrote.I didn't say our UNDERSTANDING hasn't changed. I am speaking in objective terms you are speaking in subjective terms. Yes and I guess the role the Catholic Church and Judeo/Christian philosophy played in all of that development passed you by.
But in the comment you were responding to, I *WAS* commenting on our KNOWLEDGE of reality having changed, not reality itself. Although reality has of course changed, as it does every second of every day.
Like how our laws and the structure of our governing bodies today are based on a Greek and Roman template? And how the most influential philosophers in both law and ethics are, again, Greeks and Romans, not christians? Yes, impressive, that.
@MrGralgrathor There is no point. You consistently refuse to look at things in an intellectually honest way. Our laws and governmental structures are not only based on those templates. Our laws and ethics were influenced by others, Aquinas is just one that comes to mind. It's been real.
Of course there are other influences, from more modern thinkers. The point is that the Judeo/Christian tradition is not quite the sole pillar of modern law and ethics that you would have it be.
But cultures and societies have changed. What we think is right and wrong today is not what people thought was right and wrong a thousand years ago, let alone 2000 years ago.
@thursday2217 "The Church attempts to promote objective truth. Objective truth does not change." <-- oh really... so like when the Catholic church finally decided to accept evolution.... that "objective" truth they held in creation didn't change.. did it?
@XGralgrathor I am made for God.To love Him, to serve Him and others, to know Him and to become the magnificent and glorious creature He has created me to be. This journey is so filled with joy,adventure,discovery,reward, and yes some trial and great effort.It is never boring. It is never lonely.It is never ending.It is full of mystery and intrigue.Above all it is rational.I first came to know God thru feeling.Feelings come and go but it is the truth I find here that keeps me here
So your purpose in life is to better yourself. Well, what about that purpose requires that gods exist? I have such purposes myself, and I certainly do not demand that gods exist in order for me to be able to live up to that purpose.
@joeyhoser In what way. They are not mutually exclusive. I had a spiritual experience. That experience was very real to me. I felt the reality and presence of God. I didn't know much about Him then. I just knew He loved me. It was a feeling. Like falling in love. I do not always have that feeling now, though sometimes I do. Since then I have come to know him thru the study of the scripture, thru study of Church teaching and thru prayer.It is the rationality of it that keeps me here.
@XGralgrathor Okay, the Church's teaching regarding sex and contraception is killing people. Sex, which is a procreative act, belongs in a loving, committed and faithful marriage that is open to life. Yeah I get it now, I can see how this teaching when followed and lived leads to a protracted and painful death. Sorry I was confused before.
"the Church's teaching regarding sex and contraception is killing people"
Yes. That's exactly right.
People are going to have sex. It's an instinct.
The teaching of the church not only focuses on the wrong thing (ie. not having sex, in stead of being responsible about sex), but it also causes all kinds of psychological trouble, from people denying their most basic instincts.
@XGralgrathor It isn't focused on not having sex. It is focused on having sex in loving, committed and life affirming relationships that do not violate, use, or harm others. It considers the whole human person and not just his instincts. The church tells us we are more than our instincts. I can see how that would make people have psychological problems. Just an observation but doing whatever our instincts tell us seems to cause much more psychological pain,it can even kill.
You want the Church to say there is no sin so everyone can FEEL better as they do what ever they want. Is that what you mean by tolerance? That is not tolerance and that is not love. It also is not truth. Intolerance is attacking and misrepresenting what the Church believes and teaches because you don't like it.
The church has not the right to say who is sinful and who is not. It lost that right some time ago, when it became obvious that its charities did not outweigh its evils.
The Church is its teaching and not the politics and bureaucratic tangles that creep into all institutions. It is that teaching that Fry despises. It is that teaching, if we could follow it, that would and has changed the world for the better.
If that teaching were a teaching of tolerance and love, then how could anyone despise it? What Fry observes is that either the teaching is not one of tolerance and love, or the church does not follow its teachings. The end result is the same: secular injustices created, secular harm caused under the banner of an institution that has no secular purpose.
The Church IS its members. Institutions do what institutions do.They are self protective slow to change and often steered in wrong directions by those who rise to power within them. We could look at the institution of Medicine and decry its abuses through the years pointing to the people who were tortured and died by primitive techniques. Or point to all the doctors who pioneered new treatment and methods and were ostracized by their more powerful peers who felt threatened. Medical science bad?
There is a difference. The "institution of medicine" provides a service that has directly measurable benefits which cannot be provided by any other "institution" (say, for instance, the "institution of plumbing"). The Church has no such service. The charities it performs would work as well if they were provided by a secular organisation; the discipline and psychological help it provides could be achieved through secular means, etc.
@MrGralgrathor An institution is an institution,no difference.I suppose the millions of people whose lives have been transformed for the better by the Christian message protected,preached,upheld and promoted by the Church don't count.The comfort, inspiration,peace,and good work that flows from her teaching doesn't count either. The benefit of stable people living good lives is of no benefit to the secular world,right? Secularism doesn't seem to satisfy the soul, just saying.
You know that is not so. Please don't insult your own intelligence.
"transformed for the better"
I'm not saying that the church has done no good. Please read my comment before responding. I am saying the same thing Fry said: if the church has done good, then it is not something that could not have been achieved by secular institutions or organisations, possibly without all of the evils that the church introduced into this world.
@XGralgrathor I say again no difference. " if the church has 'done good', then it is 'not something that could "not have been achieved' by secular institutions or organiZations. I agree(ponder that!) The Church has every right to say, teach and preach what sin is. People have every right to go behaving in whatever way they see fit. They don't lose that right regardless of what I or the Church thinks of the behavior unless said behavior breaks the laws of the land.
Then you are simply denying the obvious. An institution of stamp collecting is not the same as an institution of medicine. They do not have the same impacts on society. One exists as a collection of people doing what they like doing; the other has responsibilities to society as a whole. There *are* differences. One institution is *not* the same as any other, in any respect.
@XGralgrathor My argument was that institutions have certain characteristics common to all of them. I stated what those were in my comment on the subject. You have not refuted that argument. You have simple said something about differing impacts of various institutions. What's your point?
The point is that the *relevant* property we're discussing here is the effect "institutions" have on society, and the responsibilities they hold towards society. In this, all "institutions" are *not* the same.
@MrGralgrathor All institutions fall prey to politics and bureaucratic tangles. They are subject to self protection and corruption by the flawed humans that make them up. All institutions including science. You like science you don't like the Church.The same argument that you condemn the Church can logically be used to condemn science. In either case it is a specious argument.
Again, the RELEVANT property here is whether an institution has some secular purpose, a secular and measurable benefit to society that follows directly from its raison d'être.
After all, the evils they bring into the world are secular evils, and so should be offset against some secular benefit. And if it's not a benefit that's directly related to the raison d'être of the institution, than any other institution can perform it just as well.
Technically, they do. There is no law against many of the evils the church commits - although many people think there should be, and the pope should be held accountable. But there not being laws against such behaviour does not make it desirable. It is entirely reasonable for me to say that the church, in committing the evils they did, has forfeited the right to declare people to be sinful.
@XGralgrathor What evil? What should the Pope be held accountable for?The Church doesn't declare people to be sinful. Give me an example of the Church doing that.
Condoning the spreading through parts of Africa of the message that the use of condoms is sinful. Trivialising or even actively assisting in hiding sexual schandals involving minors, and actively helping priests involved in such schandals from lawful persecution. For condoning the message that homosexuality may be "against natural law" and that such cases may "benefit from appropriate therapy".
@MrGralgrathor He has condoned the teaching of Church doctrine.He never trivialized (do you have a z on your keypad?) the sex scandal nor did he actively assist in any kind of coverup. Accusations should be backed up with actual evidence. I don't know what specific message you are accusing him of condoning but it is appropriate for him to articulate Church teaching on such issues.There is nothing evil about Church teaching on homosexuality, you don't have to agree with it.
@lucifersgarden There is very, very little truth in what he speaks. There is hatred, there is disrespect for others, there are a great deal of misleading,dishonest and deliberate misrepresentations of the Church and history. His rant is intolerant, irrational and dumb and only appeals to irrational and intellectually lazy people.
I have nothing against Catholic people themselves, but throughout history the Vatican has shown itself to be little more than a corrupt frat house built upon shame, fear, hatred, intolerance, and bigotry. It might be responsible for a lot of good these days too (charities and the like), but that doesn't mean shit to me when they treat the rape of children like a PR scandal instead of a crime.
Something tells me we'll have to agree to disagree here.
@lucifersgarden You obviously have no knowledge of history.Your comment is just plain ignorant. You give no reason for such a statement, no facts, no references, no historical data. Your comment about the "rape of children" and a "PR scandal" again shows no understanding or knowledge of what really happened. It is a ridiculous statement that reveals your blind prejudice against the Church.
I didn't "provide" any facts/references/data because I feel zero need to justify or explain my opinions to you. You might think you alone have the correct interpretation of history, but rest assured, I am fully capable of drawing my own conclusions based on the evidence.
@lucifersgarden So you get to make up your own history and what really happened doesn't matter. Truth doesn't matter to you. You have a right to your own opinions but you do not have a right to your own facts.
@lucifersgarden This really made me laugh and your right( though I'm not crazy about your use of profanity). I know its Youtube but it bothers me that so many young people come here and for many of them this forms their understanding of things. That's really scary to me. The ability to think critically seems to be disappearing and we are all going to pay the price for that.
Your arrogance here is mind-blowing. The fact that people disagree with your opinions is NOT due to the 'disappearance of critical thinking'. Please tell me that it has at least once occurred to you that maybe - just maybe - you're simply threatened by opposing beliefs and are too set in your ways to consider a different point of view? The cultural mindset of the younger generations is becoming increasingly liberal and non-theistic; that does not mean 'stupid'.
@lucifersgarden It does not appear that I am the one threatened. I do not care "what" people believe I care "why" they believe it. Angst and outrage over the human condition is not a substitute for reasoned and fact based debate.Liberal and non-theistic is fine. Mocking, chastising and accusing others of evil when you don't know what you are talking about is not fine, it is 'stupid'.
the inside organisation of the vatican is destroying religion and helping the world be evil . try believing in living by god wil not a man in a dress. luke 21:8 'take heed that ye are not deceived'
The Vatican really is a closed in organisation who believes firmly in the traditions of the Bible.
Please don't blame the actual Catholic Church, they are doing a lot of good in the world, but the inside organisation of the Vatican is telling the Churches of Catholosism to not use condoms etc.
@xaxie1 As a fellow Catholic I must say your use of a false dilemma here is sowing confusion amongst non-Catholics. As to the debate, Fry's opponents were not particularly spectacular at representing their faith and Fry is a far more gifted wit and speaker than they. That said, mere wit or rhetoric is not ultimately the deciding factor regarding morality.
@Marcus1916 Fry didn't defeat his opponents for better rhetorics. He defeated them because - other than his opponents - he brought facts to the table. What could any possible opponent bring to the table instead of better rhetorics? Nothing.
One of the greatest speeches ive ever heard!! Any moral christian who doesnt agree with what Stephen Fry says here is either lieing or just simply unable to face the truth!
I think people on here are missing the point. Fry is not saying that the Catholic Church has never done any good - in fact his point at the end references this. He is saying that the Catholic Church will always say 'yeah but what about the good work it does', just as a criminal will always say 'yeah I know Ive killed people etc, but what about the good Ive done'. It doesnt make up for all the pain that the Catholic church is responsible for.
With the exception of using the fear of damnation, emotional manipulation and flat-out dishonesty to extort money from the ignorant and indoctrinated laity; raping children and concealing their rapists from prosecution is what the clergy does best.
Gallileo was not tortured for trying to explain the Copernican understanding of the galaxy. Gallieo was actually on very good terms with the Catholic Church and remained a believer for his entire life. The pope at the time actually enjoyed Gallieo's ideas. later in life he did have some issues with the Church that had to do with a loan. This whole thing about the galaxy is a myth and has no basis in fact. He was never tortured for anything.
grfield1 3 hours ago
How is it possible that there are a billion catholics?
CostcoPizza1 1 day ago
@CostcoPizza1
africa, asia, south america. While the catholic church is shrinking in europe, it has been sending missionaries everywhere and is growing in the third world. By being present in countries where population rates rise quickly, the catholic church profits from global population growth.
kurtilein3 1 day ago
@kurtilein3 Absolutely correct, but I would go further in saying that government figures from the third world massively exaggerate the actual amounts of genuine believers, its a scandal that is killing millions from aids
TheMightyTed 3 hours ago
@CostcoPizza1 ...who knows?? How many stupid followers there is, is a mystery.
coltsuperocean10 10 hours ago
@CostcoPizza1 are you calling over the people or the institution
Bhhsboy1 2 hours ago
I loved him in V for Vendetta
SonOfNye 1 day ago
I am in the Legion of Mary in Dublin and i have to say i visited a house and the views one person had made my heart sink listening to her, i should have left the house with the woman i was with, Our Lord told His Deciples that if ur not warmly welcomed by a house to shake the dust from ur feet and leave the house, i was shocked by what i heared, just like what poor Mr.Fry was taking about attacking the Church and Priests and the like and she could only see her way,very sad, very dishearting.
hotmann29 2 days ago
6:00 His thing about food was almost certainly off the cuff. But then he comes up almost instantly with the brilliant analogy of the the anorexic and obese. You can really tell how sharp and quick his mind is,
muffin8or 2 days ago
Religion will never die, but it will shrivel and be overtaken by freethinkers and atheists.
PhilanVortex 5 days ago
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Billy Meier ,Theyfly.com go to ufo links to James Deardorff and futureofmankind. Find out for yourselve's how the Bullshit and evil religion's are not telling you about the most suppressed story in human history. See what really is the truth about our life.You will be amazed ,all your question's will be answered and how much we have been lied to by the religion's of this planet.
acat543 5 days ago
I wish the audience wouldn't clap or cheer at debates. This isn't directed at this video, but when the speaker makes a false, sensationalist comment they should not be applauded by the extremists who make up the majority audience. People should be quiet.
So when they go "woooo!!" in this one, I feel sad.
puresatire 6 days ago
@puresatire
I understand the sentiment, but really, there isnt much you can do except for changes in audio equipment. Organizers WANT the audience to be blown away by the experience of the talk/event. And if i would be in the audience and hear something i really disagree with, like the earth being less than 10000 years old or L.Ron Hubbard being a war hero, i would not stay silent.
So, really, different microphones and audio editing appear to be the only options.
kurtilein3 5 days ago
Somebody should take him to the back and shoot him, I knew I didn't trust those big crooked teeth for a reason, and you you are as bad as him.
Z1RR44 6 days ago
@Z1RR44
Most people in the UK consider Fry to be a national treasure. Im not from the UK, but i consider him a genious. And you wish death upon him? For what?
kurtilein3 5 days ago
@kurtilein3
He is assaulting my religion, where I'm from he should pay with his life.
Z1RR44 5 days ago
@Z1RR44
Okay, im assaultin your religion. Your god sucks, for letting evil happen he is evil. If he really did write the old testament, he is bloodthirsty and jealous and cruel and genocidal. Now hate me and leave Stephen Fry alone. By the way, all i said is based on facts. Did i mention that your sky-daddy is also jealous and proud of it?
Also, he is unable to appear in a TV studio, doesnt give interviews... Its so obvious he doesnt exist.
kurtilein3 5 days ago
@kurtilein3
Sky daddy, did stephen fry write that for you? Are you one of stephen fry's little whore's from uganda? Pick yourself up, dust your self off, pull your pants up, don't let stephen fry rape your mind. (last comment, go to church preferably a Catholic Church)
Z1RR44 5 days ago
@Z1RR44 Ha, just goes to show what disgusting individuals you guys are. Use your brain for just a second.
blissbomb1988 4 days ago
@Z1RR44 omg, are there still people this stupid
ennot 3 days ago
@Z1RR44 WOW! Just WOW!
You would have someone put to death for delivering a intellectual, factual & coherent arguement against a corrupted institution & a concept. I thought with a statement like that you'd be from some obscure third world region. But you live in America where freedom of speech & religion are built into your constitution.
MrLittletomdj 4 days ago
@MrLittletomdj
Aren't you a shrewd, clever little bee, I would ask you where you are from, but it doesn't matter. Stephen isn't American, so your theory goes nowhere, the Constitution is for Americans not foreigners. don't reply
Z1RR44 4 days ago
@Z1RR44 Ofcourse I'm going to reply. I'm well aware that he's not American because he's British and appears on our television screens on a regular basis. I'm not quite sure what stupid thing you're trying to say... Do you think you're allowed to shoot immigrants & foriegn visitors in your country? My "theory"... What theory? I didn't state any theory! You're a stupid, ignorant bigot that would be wise to shut up because you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
MrLittletomdj 4 days ago
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@Z1RR44 "He is assaulting my religion, where I'm from he should pay with his life."
Go away and be a disgrace to civilization elsewhere.
TomFynn 4 days ago
Brilliant Mr.Fry!
ThelivingMj 1 week ago
@thursday2117 your first comment makes no sense- it seems like you are appraising what they did because yes the middle ages were a troubled time but it does not give people ie the fucking catholic church the right to kill people because they do not hav the same views as each other! It seems in your empty headed world that is ok, well I can think of two other people who were like that: Adolph Hitler and Stalin!! So why don't you please join the other monsters of this world by fucking off please-
Wilsterjj14 1 week ago
@Genericfurfag Stephen fry is just pure legend isnt he lol :P
Wilsterjj14 1 week ago
Straight from the heart, put in laymen's terms... well done Mr Fry !!
posyanne64 1 week ago
this debate should be againist christianity, two english men againist catholicism comes across as a nationalisic english crusade.
greggcaff 1 week ago
@greggcaff
i see it differently: A debate where Christopher Hitchens (unfortunately recently died) and Stephen Fry are on one stage! Yes, its crushing for the opposition. But then, this is the stuff history is made of.
Oh, and, none of them represent the UK government and both stand against nationalism.
kurtilein3 5 days ago 4
@kurtilein3 No a proper debate would be against formidible opposition, not the two opposite them, I loved nothing more than a good Hitch against those of equal or comparable intelligence. I did not say they represented the Britsh government or were pro-nationalism but those who know British and their personal history it could be interrupted that way.
greggcaff 5 days ago
@kurtilein3 Argument...you're doing it right.
Realmslover 1 day ago
@greggcaff To land a successful strike against such a massive opponent, you have to make separate, precise attacks
TheLemonGrenade 1 day ago
If the laws of nature would allow it, I would bear that man's child.
GenericFurfag 1 week ago 12
@thursday2217 your argument is moot there are also books by historians showing that this was done so that was a stupid argument which seems to be the norm from you! and I'm not closed minded in fine wiv people having spiritual beliefs but I get pissed when those beliefs have a negative effect on the happiness of others- which the catholic church clearly has- your the empty headed one who is not able to accept the evidence that has been shown by people and Mr Fry that the catholic church isn't
Wilsterjj14 1 week ago
@Wilsterjj14 Intelligence is not just measured by the ability to read. To understand anything about a topic one needs to consider a wide breath of information from many sources. You wouldn't for example rest your opinion of someone based solely on the testimony of their enemies.Once you know all the pertinent fact and place them in proper historical perspective you can come to conclusions based on critical thinking and not irrational prejudice and intolerance.
thursday2217 1 week ago
Religion is dying, and those of us that realize wont even be at the funeral. We'll be at the nearest bar drinking all the champagne in celebration.
gutstotake 1 week ago
2:09 Lady righteously nods and further proves Stephen point. freaking hilarious.
Cubanuel 1 week ago 5
@thirsday2217 Firstly it doesn't matter at all- the church still did it so thy should be held accountable and in the Spanish inquisition it was headed by the CATHOLIC monarch Ferdinand the second. It was used as they thought any other practice of religion was evil as there could only be one god, complete coincidence they supposedly got the right one. I suggest you look up on your history and take a look at Wikipedia or anything to open ur sad little closed off mind- now please FUCK OFF AND DIE
Wilsterjj14 1 week ago
@Wilsterjj14 Again your spin on the little information you have is wrong. There are several books on the subject written by universally respected historians that I could recommend to you but it's obvious you are not really interested in finding out what the truth is. You are the perfect example of a closed mind and an empty head.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@Wilsterjj14 Don't you see the irony in your F OFF AND DIE comment. The problem in the mid ages was that people demonized people who disagreed with them. They cast them as evil and this allowed them to do things like call for their "DEATH". From the looks of it you would have been one of these people. Of course the history there is not that simple but you are simple, close minded and empty headed.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217 I can assure you mate I am not wrong torture was used to convert people to the catholic faith- I am not subverting it you are just ignoring parts of history that are convenient to you as they may make your points completely invalid. And it didn't have to be a teaching it was an action they committed
Wilsterjj14 1 week ago
@Wilsterjj14 Where was it used for that purpose? When was it used for that purpose? Who was it carried out by for that purpose? What were the circumstances surrounding such use? Please give me the specifics of this allegation. And it matters very much whether it was the teaching of the Church.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217 I wouldn't bring it up if I had no background knowledge- that would just show total arrogance towards the subject- like you are as you are trying,and failing, to Deride people for not having the same views as you- I can remember other people like that in history- Satlin and Hitler! The main poin of the four inquisitions (medieval,spanish,Portuguese and roman- suck on that knowledge ass licker) was to convert Jews and other people who practised other religions as they saw worshipp
Wilsterjj14 1 week ago
@Wilsterjj14You are wrong.That is not historically accurate.I am not bothered by people who have a different viewpoint I am bothered by people who rewrite/distort history.The inquisition began as a means to root out heresy within the church.The inquisition occurred during a period of history that was often violent and where heresy whether in protestant or pagan circles was met with severe punishment.The Church should have resisted the norms of its day but sadly sometimes it did not.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217 It is relevant that in mid evil times the connection between church and state was strong.Citizenship assumed religious uniformity, be it Islam in the Muslim world or Anglicanism in England.This complicated and sometimes compromised the Christian ideal.It has never been a Catholic teaching to bring people to the faith by force and the Inquisition was supposed to have power over baptized catholics only.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217In some places the Inquisition was very passive in others it was used to bring peace where heretics were causing great upheaval and unrest. While no priest or monk could use torture the government and state bodies could and did. There was much suffering but it was common in every society of the time the Inquisition used it no more and usually less that other authorities.This was a barbaric time, in England people were being disembowelled and beheaded, not by Catholics.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217 I could go on and on but this is as I have been reminded just Youtube .Obviously a flippant accusation that the Church is evil because of the inquisition is not appropriate and does not take into account the complexity of the topic.While the inquisition particularly in Spain became a tool of the government it's relevant to point out, more men and women were slaughtered in a couple weeks of the atheistic French Revolution than in a century of the Inquisition.
thursday2217 1 week ago
Hitchens and Fry are not stupid people and they both certainly know how to fact check something. Their rants are full of misrepresentations of history and fact. They misrepresent the Catholic Church and its teaching. They know they are doing this. They are not stupid but they think you are. They count on it. You should be offended but instead you make them your heroes. That "you" refers to the majority of people who respond positively to this video and to most of the audience at this farce.
thursday2217 1 week ago
Don't wanna make a fuss I mean people can believe whatever they want and I'm cool with that.... I have to say I totally agree with that brilliant man because of all the pain and suffering that has been felt by many people over the years which he makes evident- and he even misses out the big point that would support him: The inquisition- where so many people were tortured so that they would change faiths- you have to ask yourself is that what a good world force would do over a petty matter as r
Wilsterjj14 1 week ago
@Wilsterjj14 Do you know anything about the inquisition that you didn't get from some movie. Have you read any work by actual historians. Can you tell me anything about the inquisitions that isn't just accusation and innuendo.
thursday2217 1 week ago
How unfortunate that his hatred for the individuals who have corrupted themselves manifests itself into a hatred for the Church overall. I was raised in the Catholic Church, and my experience was nothing but positive. Our priests performed charity work continuously, were good stewards of the tithes (little as they were), lived very poorly in an old run-down house. The nuns were charitable and strict and lived like paupers as well. I think Fry has a bias, based on his lifestyle.
TomKaren94 1 week ago
@TomKaren94 I am more than happy that you and I for that matter, had similar upbringings. But I have met several people of different faiths who have not. I also have learned that all good deeds come in several shapes and sizes.
The nature of any church has an inherent flaw where the teachings negate logic , but the good work of any man or woman does not erase the horrific crimes of the past or present, no matter what faith if any.
batrama310 1 week ago
@TomKaren94
Hatred? Thats a strong word. And his attack is not focused on individuals, but on the institution that rules the roman cathilc church in a totalitarian way. And that institution takes money from all catholics, and invests it in causes that you obviously disagree with. Right now, in the USA, the primary focus of the roman catholic church is to demonize contraception. With all the causes they COULD fight for, thats their number one priority above all else for 2012.
kurtilein3 5 days ago
@kurtilein3 Amen, a fight against poverty would be more worthwhile.
Trake1986 2 days ago
@TomKaren94 And what force for good in the world requires people to live 'very poorly' and 'like paupers'? And so should Fry have a bias based on his lifestyle, he was born a homosexual man and therefore he is what he is, and should NOT to be subjected to the demonization that the Church peddels against gay people to support their hysterical, antiquated teachings.
blissbomb1988 5 days ago
@TomKaren94 that's just what he's saying at around 8:15. Any actual counter arguments to the facts he referred to?
ennot 3 days ago
@TomKaren94 didnt you listen to him?, hear what he says around 35 seconds in
marcr94 3 days ago
@TomKaren94 I was also raised Catholic and the archbishop in our diocese drove a mercedes.
abnormallyhugeweiner 2 days ago
@TomKaren94
in Germany archbishops, every single one of them, make upwards of 10000 euros per month. bishops maybe 6000 euros.
kurtilein3 1 day ago
@TomKaren94 if you listened to the first bloody minuet you would know this...
sam15mohsen 1 day ago
@sam15mohsen I would know what? That he says he hates the institution, not the individuals? I heard it. I just don't believe it because the remainder of the video doesn't bear it out. He's a utilitarian, obviously, and that philosophical difference results from his justification of his own lifestyle (which we all do) by concluding its not immoral though the Church says it is. That's it. He then attacks two individuals of the Church and points an accusing finger at the Bishop. Nothing new here.
TomKaren94 1 day ago
@TomKaren94 You clearly didn't listen properly, as he stated that he doesn't condemn people who follow the church, but the institution itself. Of course there are good individuals within the catholic church, but what the institution promotes and stands for is extremely lacking in Christian values. Unfortunately for you, you have been conditioned by a corrupt organisation, to not listen, and not to learn or question. Good luck living in such a narrow view of the world.
Chatterrful 1 day ago
@Chatterrful Oh, go take your self-righteousness and stick it where the sun don't shine. My observation is that Fry's supposed position and his statements are as inconsistent and hypocritically biased as anyone else's. He needs to justify himself, and this is the way he does it. Like I said, there's nothing new here... and actually there's nothing particularly intellectual either. If you can't see it, it's fine with me. The fact that I do just drives you crazy, though, doesn't it?
TomKaren94 1 day ago
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There's no saint's ,no god ,no satan, no angel's ,no heaven ,no hell ,there's not even any such thing as karma. What is there? You wanna know! Heard of Billy Meier? Well he is a messenger of truth, the real TRUTH. check out Theyfly.com, go to ufo links to James Deardorff and futureofmankind. All your question's will be answered there. Learn what's been suppressed from you, by your Bullshit and evil religion's
acat543 1 week ago
Here we go again another english man puting down the catholic religion,where have I heard this before oh yes 800 years of rule under british law. The catholic religion has sheltered so many and yes i understand the abuse that went on especially in my country with so many young people but no you can not declame the catholic church has not made a difference it has bonded countrys the catholic church is a force of good ,believe what you like and forget what your neighbour believes.
ImTheLad 1 week ago
@ImTheLad
"the catholic church has"
The catholic church is at this moment implying to uneducated masses in Africa that it is sinful to use condoms, and in doing so condemning millions to a protracted and painful death.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@XGralgrathor The Church is not implying anything.Her teaching is clear and straight forward. Its teaching is life affirming and speaks to the great dignity of every human person. Boy that sounds evil doesn't it?Sounds like the kind of thing that condemns millions to a protracted and painful death.It's Hitchens and Fry who are convincing the uneducated masses to believe a inaccurate history of the Church that simply is not true. Condemning them to a long and protracted ignorance.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"The Church is not implying anything"
O, but it is. In spades. Again I use homosexuality as an example: they wouldn't dare come out and state that they think that homosexuality is unequivocally evil, but it's still what they believe, and it's still the message that they really want to get out there. So they suggest, they imply, that it may be a problem, and that treatment is "appropriate".
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
@MrGralgrathor This is getting boring. They do not imply. The Church teaches that sex outside of marriage is a sin. That's it. You don't like that. Okay.
thursday2217 1 week ago
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@thursday2217
"They do not imply"
Yup, they do.
"sex outside of marriage is a sin"
I thought you said "The Church doesn't declare people to be sinful" and here you say that it declares everybody who's ever had sex (outside marriage, which is most of all humans ever born) to be sinful. Anyway, it may declare such a thing, but that doesn't give it the right to, and it doesn't make it right or true. In fact, this teaching is a large contributor to teen pregnancy and STD spread.
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"Its teaching is life affirming"
Frankly, in my opinion their teachings are basically one big exercise in apologetics. They know the scripture they follow is not relevant to and in many ways contradict today's knowledge of reality, and therefore they need to re-interpret, and re-re-interpret, and inject many new words and new translations and new meanings into it, and write encyclicals with papal decrees to try and cover up that really, it's all just bs.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@XGralgrathor Have you read the Bible? Not relevant? How is today's reality different from the reality when it was written. People are still people. We are not more sophisticated. Still have all the same weaknesses, hopes, dreams, needs and desires. The Church's teaching has remained constant.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"How is today's reality different from the reality when it was written."
Are you kidding? No, seriously, are you on drugs?
But to correct your question: I said "our KNOWLEDGE OF reality".
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@XGralgrathor Okay tell me how it differed. Reality changed in what way. Yes our knowledge of the way things work has grown thru science. People have not changed. The Bible isn't a book about how it all works it about what it all means. Very relevant. The atheist believes there is no meaning. To Christians life is rich with meaning, purpose, beauty and light stretching on into eternity.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"how it differed"
Are you seriously suggesting that our understanding of reality today is the same as it was 3000 years ago? I mean, seriously? The whole development of science, the enlightenment just passed you by? Didn't register with you? Not to mention all the sociological developments, equal rights movements, andsoforth?
Nah, kid, if that's what you're arguing, then we're done. I'm okay with slightly odd, but that's just raving stark mad.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@XGralgrathor I suppose my argument is too nuanced for you.You are not responding to what I wrote.I didn't say our UNDERSTANDING hasn't changed. I am speaking in objective terms you are speaking in subjective terms. Yes and I guess the role the Catholic Church and Judeo/Christian philosophy played in all of that development passed you by.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"I didn't say"
But in the comment you were responding to, I *WAS* commenting on our KNOWLEDGE of reality having changed, not reality itself. Although reality has of course changed, as it does every second of every day.
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"Judeo/Christian philosophy"
Like how our laws and the structure of our governing bodies today are based on a Greek and Roman template? And how the most influential philosophers in both law and ethics are, again, Greeks and Romans, not christians? Yes, impressive, that.
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
@MrGralgrathor There is no point. You consistently refuse to look at things in an intellectually honest way. Our laws and governmental structures are not only based on those templates. Our laws and ethics were influenced by others, Aquinas is just one that comes to mind. It's been real.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"are not only based on those templates"
Of course there are other influences, from more modern thinkers. The point is that the Judeo/Christian tradition is not quite the sole pillar of modern law and ethics that you would have it be.
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"People have not changed"
But cultures and societies have changed. What we think is right and wrong today is not what people thought was right and wrong a thousand years ago, let alone 2000 years ago.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@XGralgrathor The Church attempts to promote objective truth. Objective truth does not change.
thursday2217 1 week ago
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@thursday2217
"The Church attempts to promote objective truth"
Sorry, but the only *possible* reply to that is: LOLROFLMAO.
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
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@thursday2217
"The Church attempts to promote objective truth"
Sorry, but the only *possible* reply to that is: LOLROFLMAO.
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
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@thursday2217 "The Church attempts to promote objective truth. Objective truth does not change." <-- oh really... so like when the Catholic church finally decided to accept evolution.... that "objective" truth they held in creation didn't change.. did it?
chrisdarby80 1 week ago
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@thursday2217
"The atheist believes there is no meaning"
The atheist realises that meaning is what he attributes to life.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"To Christians life is rich with meaning, purpose"
Really? Then what is that meaning? And what is that purpose? Come on, impress me.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@XGralgrathor I am made for God.To love Him, to serve Him and others, to know Him and to become the magnificent and glorious creature He has created me to be. This journey is so filled with joy,adventure,discovery,reward, and yes some trial and great effort.It is never boring. It is never lonely.It is never ending.It is full of mystery and intrigue.Above all it is rational.I first came to know God thru feeling.Feelings come and go but it is the truth I find here that keeps me here
thursday2217 1 week ago
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@thursday2217
"to become the magnificent and glorious creature"
So your purpose in life is to better yourself. Well, what about that purpose requires that gods exist? I have such purposes myself, and I certainly do not demand that gods exist in order for me to be able to live up to that purpose.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
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joeyhoser 1 week ago
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joeyhoser 1 week ago
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joeyhoser 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"Above all it is rational. I first came to know God thru feeling."
How can you put those two sentences together in the same thought? Something is obviously wrong about at least one of them.
joeyhoser 1 week ago
@joeyhoser In what way. They are not mutually exclusive. I had a spiritual experience. That experience was very real to me. I felt the reality and presence of God. I didn't know much about Him then. I just knew He loved me. It was a feeling. Like falling in love. I do not always have that feeling now, though sometimes I do. Since then I have come to know him thru the study of the scripture, thru study of Church teaching and thru prayer.It is the rationality of it that keeps me here.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@XGralgrathor I missed this comment earlier and just wanted to reply. I have no need or desire to impress you. Again, its been real.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"Its teaching is life affirming"
Besides, I wouldn't call condemning millions of Africans to a protracted and painful death "life affirming". I call it: criminal.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@XGralgrathor Okay, the Church's teaching regarding sex and contraception is killing people. Sex, which is a procreative act, belongs in a loving, committed and faithful marriage that is open to life. Yeah I get it now, I can see how this teaching when followed and lived leads to a protracted and painful death. Sorry I was confused before.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"the Church's teaching regarding sex and contraception is killing people"
Yes. That's exactly right.
People are going to have sex. It's an instinct.
The teaching of the church not only focuses on the wrong thing (ie. not having sex, in stead of being responsible about sex), but it also causes all kinds of psychological trouble, from people denying their most basic instincts.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@XGralgrathor It isn't focused on not having sex. It is focused on having sex in loving, committed and life affirming relationships that do not violate, use, or harm others. It considers the whole human person and not just his instincts. The church tells us we are more than our instincts. I can see how that would make people have psychological problems. Just an observation but doing whatever our instincts tell us seems to cause much more psychological pain,it can even kill.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"It is focused on"
On not having sex outside marriage.
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
@MrGralgrathor That's your focus, it is not the Church's.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
No, it's the church's alright.
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
You want the Church to say there is no sin so everyone can FEEL better as they do what ever they want. Is that what you mean by tolerance? That is not tolerance and that is not love. It also is not truth. Intolerance is attacking and misrepresenting what the Church believes and teaches because you don't like it.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"You want the Church to say there is no sin"
The church has not the right to say who is sinful and who is not. It lost that right some time ago, when it became obvious that its charities did not outweigh its evils.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"misrepresenting what the Church believes"
Even if the church did not believe the evil things it believes, then we would still have to consider its evil actions and influences.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
The Church is its teaching and not the politics and bureaucratic tangles that creep into all institutions. It is that teaching that Fry despises. It is that teaching, if we could follow it, that would and has changed the world for the better.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"It is that teaching"
If that teaching were a teaching of tolerance and love, then how could anyone despise it? What Fry observes is that either the teaching is not one of tolerance and love, or the church does not follow its teachings. The end result is the same: secular injustices created, secular harm caused under the banner of an institution that has no secular purpose.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
The Church IS its members. Institutions do what institutions do.They are self protective slow to change and often steered in wrong directions by those who rise to power within them. We could look at the institution of Medicine and decry its abuses through the years pointing to the people who were tortured and died by primitive techniques. Or point to all the doctors who pioneered new treatment and methods and were ostracized by their more powerful peers who felt threatened. Medical science bad?
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"look at the institution of Medicine"
There is a difference. The "institution of medicine" provides a service that has directly measurable benefits which cannot be provided by any other "institution" (say, for instance, the "institution of plumbing"). The Church has no such service. The charities it performs would work as well if they were provided by a secular organisation; the discipline and psychological help it provides could be achieved through secular means, etc.
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
@MrGralgrathor An institution is an institution,no difference.I suppose the millions of people whose lives have been transformed for the better by the Christian message protected,preached,upheld and promoted by the Church don't count.The comfort, inspiration,peace,and good work that flows from her teaching doesn't count either. The benefit of stable people living good lives is of no benefit to the secular world,right? Secularism doesn't seem to satisfy the soul, just saying.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"no difference"
You know that is not so. Please don't insult your own intelligence.
"transformed for the better"
I'm not saying that the church has done no good. Please read my comment before responding. I am saying the same thing Fry said: if the church has done good, then it is not something that could not have been achieved by secular institutions or organisations, possibly without all of the evils that the church introduced into this world.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@XGralgrathor I say again no difference. " if the church has 'done good', then it is 'not something that could "not have been achieved' by secular institutions or organiZations. I agree(ponder that!) The Church has every right to say, teach and preach what sin is. People have every right to go behaving in whatever way they see fit. They don't lose that right regardless of what I or the Church thinks of the behavior unless said behavior breaks the laws of the land.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"no difference"
Then you are simply denying the obvious. An institution of stamp collecting is not the same as an institution of medicine. They do not have the same impacts on society. One exists as a collection of people doing what they like doing; the other has responsibilities to society as a whole. There *are* differences. One institution is *not* the same as any other, in any respect.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@XGralgrathor My argument was that institutions have certain characteristics common to all of them. I stated what those were in my comment on the subject. You have not refuted that argument. You have simple said something about differing impacts of various institutions. What's your point?
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"What's your point?"
The point is that the *relevant* property we're discussing here is the effect "institutions" have on society, and the responsibilities they hold towards society. In this, all "institutions" are *not* the same.
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
@MrGralgrathor All institutions fall prey to politics and bureaucratic tangles. They are subject to self protection and corruption by the flawed humans that make them up. All institutions including science. You like science you don't like the Church.The same argument that you condemn the Church can logically be used to condemn science. In either case it is a specious argument.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"you don't like the Church."
Again, the RELEVANT property here is whether an institution has some secular purpose, a secular and measurable benefit to society that follows directly from its raison d'être.
After all, the evils they bring into the world are secular evils, and so should be offset against some secular benefit. And if it's not a benefit that's directly related to the raison d'être of the institution, than any other institution can perform it just as well.
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"The Church has every right"
Technically, they do. There is no law against many of the evils the church commits - although many people think there should be, and the pope should be held accountable. But there not being laws against such behaviour does not make it desirable. It is entirely reasonable for me to say that the church, in committing the evils they did, has forfeited the right to declare people to be sinful.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
@XGralgrathor What evil? What should the Pope be held accountable for?The Church doesn't declare people to be sinful. Give me an example of the Church doing that.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
"What should the Pope be held accountable for?"
Condoning the spreading through parts of Africa of the message that the use of condoms is sinful. Trivialising or even actively assisting in hiding sexual schandals involving minors, and actively helping priests involved in such schandals from lawful persecution. For condoning the message that homosexuality may be "against natural law" and that such cases may "benefit from appropriate therapy".
MrGralgrathor 1 week ago
@MrGralgrathor He has condoned the teaching of Church doctrine.He never trivialized (do you have a z on your keypad?) the sex scandal nor did he actively assist in any kind of coverup. Accusations should be backed up with actual evidence. I don't know what specific message you are accusing him of condoning but it is appropriate for him to articulate Church teaching on such issues.There is nothing evil about Church teaching on homosexuality, you don't have to agree with it.
thursday2217 1 week ago
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@thursday2217
"The Church doesn't declare people to be sinful"
Yes it does. It does so when it declares scripture to be truth, and its message the binding word of its god.
XGralgrathor 1 week ago
STEVIE JUST SAID SAID!
NickPaulOates 2 weeks ago
As a straight female, I am jealous of all the men that have had sex with Stephen Fry.
TRUTH: HE SPEAKS IT.
lucifersgarden 2 weeks ago 7
@lucifersgarden
"TRUTH: HE SPEAKS IT"
That made me lol, and I needed a good laugh on a day like this one. Thanks!
SirKickz 2 weeks ago
@SirKickz
Happy to provide ;).
lucifersgarden 2 weeks ago
@lucifersgarden There is very, very little truth in what he speaks. There is hatred, there is disrespect for others, there are a great deal of misleading,dishonest and deliberate misrepresentations of the Church and history. His rant is intolerant, irrational and dumb and only appeals to irrational and intellectually lazy people.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
I have nothing against Catholic people themselves, but throughout history the Vatican has shown itself to be little more than a corrupt frat house built upon shame, fear, hatred, intolerance, and bigotry. It might be responsible for a lot of good these days too (charities and the like), but that doesn't mean shit to me when they treat the rape of children like a PR scandal instead of a crime.
Something tells me we'll have to agree to disagree here.
lucifersgarden 1 week ago
@lucifersgarden You obviously have no knowledge of history.Your comment is just plain ignorant. You give no reason for such a statement, no facts, no references, no historical data. Your comment about the "rape of children" and a "PR scandal" again shows no understanding or knowledge of what really happened. It is a ridiculous statement that reveals your blind prejudice against the Church.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
I didn't "provide" any facts/references/data because I feel zero need to justify or explain my opinions to you. You might think you alone have the correct interpretation of history, but rest assured, I am fully capable of drawing my own conclusions based on the evidence.
lucifersgarden 1 week ago
@lucifersgarden So you get to make up your own history and what really happened doesn't matter. Truth doesn't matter to you. You have a right to your own opinions but you do not have a right to your own facts.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
Wow, bravo. After a few anonymous comments on youtube, you have me completely figured out. I mean it's like you've known me all my life.
lucifersgarden 1 week ago
@lucifersgarden I don't know you at all. What I do know is that you offer no logical or reasoned argument for any of your comments.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
Oh get over yourself ;P. For Christ's sake it's Youtube, not Oxford.
lucifersgarden 1 week ago
@lucifersgarden This really made me laugh and your right( though I'm not crazy about your use of profanity). I know its Youtube but it bothers me that so many young people come here and for many of them this forms their understanding of things. That's really scary to me. The ability to think critically seems to be disappearing and we are all going to pay the price for that.
thursday2217 1 week ago
@thursday2217
Your arrogance here is mind-blowing. The fact that people disagree with your opinions is NOT due to the 'disappearance of critical thinking'. Please tell me that it has at least once occurred to you that maybe - just maybe - you're simply threatened by opposing beliefs and are too set in your ways to consider a different point of view? The cultural mindset of the younger generations is becoming increasingly liberal and non-theistic; that does not mean 'stupid'.
lucifersgarden 1 week ago
@lucifersgarden It does not appear that I am the one threatened. I do not care "what" people believe I care "why" they believe it. Angst and outrage over the human condition is not a substitute for reasoned and fact based debate.Liberal and non-theistic is fine. Mocking, chastising and accusing others of evil when you don't know what you are talking about is not fine, it is 'stupid'.
thursday2217 1 week ago
Hey God, how about sending down a few more Stephen Frys and a few less Ann Widdecombes?
megamarsvin 2 weeks ago
@kurtilein3 I love the mirrors and am glad you've dedicated a portion of your channel to their dissemination. ^_^
seraphimra 2 weeks ago
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seraphimra 2 weeks ago
stephen fry is amazing more ppl need his guts to get the message across x
mamamonster2011 2 weeks ago
the inside organisation of the vatican is destroying religion and helping the world be evil . try believing in living by god wil not a man in a dress. luke 21:8 'take heed that ye are not deceived'
mamamonster2011 2 weeks ago
The Vatican really is a closed in organisation who believes firmly in the traditions of the Bible.
Please don't blame the actual Catholic Church, they are doing a lot of good in the world, but the inside organisation of the Vatican is telling the Churches of Catholosism to not use condoms etc.
xaxie1 2 weeks ago
@xaxie1 As a fellow Catholic I must say your use of a false dilemma here is sowing confusion amongst non-Catholics. As to the debate, Fry's opponents were not particularly spectacular at representing their faith and Fry is a far more gifted wit and speaker than they. That said, mere wit or rhetoric is not ultimately the deciding factor regarding morality.
Marcus1916 2 weeks ago
@Marcus1916 Fry didn't defeat his opponents for better rhetorics. He defeated them because - other than his opponents - he brought facts to the table. What could any possible opponent bring to the table instead of better rhetorics? Nothing.
TomFynn 1 week ago
One of the greatest speeches ive ever heard!! Any moral christian who doesnt agree with what Stephen Fry says here is either lieing or just simply unable to face the truth!
ustrip2008 2 weeks ago
LIKE A BOSS.
robyoungrob 3 weeks ago
I would do sex with Stephen Fry and I am a hetero. What a genius.
Wonmanbanned 3 weeks ago 3
@Wonmanbanned If genius is measured by a persons ability to appeal to ignorance then I guess your right.
thursday2217 1 week ago
anyone notice the camera focuses on an african nun a lot in the audience shots?
mcpwns 3 weeks ago 3
Never has 'go fuck yourself' been spoken so poetically. Well done, Stephen!
SillyEddyPhotography 3 weeks ago 21
Stephen fry smashes it. hes a boss
bendym4n123 3 weeks ago 2
@XSoulswiperX it's not an opinion. It's fact.
Jacklegs5 3 weeks ago
This guy is a moron
Jacklegs5 3 weeks ago
@Jacklegs5 Please.. just, wow..
some teenage kid calling stephen fry a moron. yeah, youtube opinions are negated. ¬_¬
XSoulswiperX 3 weeks ago 3
He sounds so much like simon cowell at 7:55 to 8:10!
LegendaryMusicMakers 3 weeks ago
what a load of crap
victrolajake 3 weeks ago
@victrolajake but its true
Lampsmahari 3 weeks ago
I think people on here are missing the point. Fry is not saying that the Catholic Church has never done any good - in fact his point at the end references this. He is saying that the Catholic Church will always say 'yeah but what about the good work it does', just as a criminal will always say 'yeah I know Ive killed people etc, but what about the good Ive done'. It doesnt make up for all the pain that the Catholic church is responsible for.
KungFuKing166 3 weeks ago
This was a bit of an one sided debate - but fun.
1. You've got 2 supreme intellectuals against a priest and politician who has never had sex.
2. How can anyone defend religion. It’s just not possible.
algeo1100 3 weeks ago 3
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With the exception of using the fear of damnation, emotional manipulation and flat-out dishonesty to extort money from the ignorant and indoctrinated laity; raping children and concealing their rapists from prosecution is what the clergy does best.
scotttebben 3 weeks ago