I don't really know what to comment. I just know these are the questions and answers I've been looking for. Now all I need to do is accomodate... So, thank you, Shinzen.
Shinzen Young is wrong when he suggests that enlightenment is entry into no-self (0:33-36). The Buddha never denied the self or affirmed that the self is the five aggregates (panca-skandhas). For the Buddha the self was transcendent.
"What is empty is ‘samsara’ and what is not empty is great ‘nirvana’ ... Perceiving the non-self but not the Self [atman] is not the Middle Way. The Middle Way is Buddha nature. — Mahaparinirvana Sutra [T. 12, p. 523b] (Atman = Buddha nature = Middle Way)
@mujaku Perhaps a look at this from the perspective of the 10-Fetters would clarify where Shinzen is coming from? The entire personality belief vanishes on attaining stream entry, it would make sense to describe this realization as seeing that there is no self but it doesn't tell the whole story. The problem is, and it's probable that this is why they Buddha never denied or affirmed a self, that to describe no-self requires the concept of self to arise in the mind. Neither is true or false.
@IdentMusic There are two forms of what is generally called no-self. There is "nattha atta" lit. no self. This is nihilism. The Buddha did not teach this. Then there is anatta, lit., not-the-self. This pertains to the five khandhas. Each one we are to consider as not my self. And why? Because the khandhas belong to death and Mara the Evil One. The khandhas ARE suffering which is the first ariya truth. Remember the Buddha said Self and Dhamma are refuges when he is gone.
@mujaku I understand what you're saying, I'm not disputing or disagreeing that. My only point was regarding the attainment of stream entry, but I also know that this is where things get complicated and beyond a youtube exchange. You appear to know considerably more than me about Buddhism as a whole, my practice has been in the Theravadan tradition but I'll check out your blog. Thanks.
@IdentMusic The Lord taught otherwise in the Mahayanamahaparinirvanasutra:
"The atman is the Tathagatagarbha. All beings possess a Buddha Nature: this is what the atman is. This atman, from the start, is always covered by innumerable passions (klesha): this is why beings are unable to see it."
Shinzen needs to remove the dust from his eyes and stop looking at Buddhism with the eye of flesh.
@Yobo77 He is for beginners. There is no doubt. It is important to study Sutta/Sutra. Without this study, anyone can say the Buddha taught such and such when in fact he did not. For example, lots of modern Buddhist believe that the Buddha taught there is no self (Pali, nattha attâ). Not true. That would be annihilationism.
@mujaku From a Mahayanist perspective, perhaps. Others may disagree. I've checked out some of your other comments, you clearly know what you're talking about so I'm wondering why you continue to disagree with Shinzen when he's saying the same thing as you are, just from a different angle on the thing when it comes to what constitutes 1st path.
I'm not asserting anything about the speaker's needs. And I understand that it's possible to desire something--e.g., credit--and yet not be compelled or controlled by that impulse. However, it still strikes me as incongruous to suggest that not receiving credit would be a downside to a enlightenment, a state of being in which, by definition, mundane distinctions about "self" and "other" are transcended. Put another way, what does "taking credit" even mean to a "no-self"?
hahaha...i strive with that....its not ME (the ego)....it works THROUGH me...as soon as i try to catch it, i am left alone with my EGO. when i let my ego go, it comes...
He says a downside is that "you don't get to take credit." But if you're "enlightened, " such that you see the illusory nature of self, why would you feel a need to take credit? That is, isn't a need to get credit just a type of clinging that is part of an unenlightened state of being?
@atheistcartoons My point of view is that I don't see a feeling of a need in him to take the credit, and if you watch he never says anything about feeling any need.Remember an enlightened person can still prefure an outcome over another and feel enjoyment just like everyone else, the difference lies in there is no strong attachment to it. They can enjoy having sex, smoking a odd cigarette or prefer a tv program over another, without the strong need like others, other than there biological pull.
i become enlightened at age of 23!!!. looking at the people around me. i would rather be a surgeon who enjoys his job and life than feeling constantly empty and useless to the society.
Fulfilled but empty at the same time. It is very strange. How do you continue pretending to fit in with people who are still struggling and seeking when you do not have the desire and urge to do the same anymore? All I want to do is pray and meditate everyday, eat and sleep, maybe do some gardening and then go to bed. It is that simple but life and all of its daily complications doesn't seem to support that need. What to do? lol
@skybird141 i don't think he has any desire to do so, but yeah i've heard other enlightened people saying 'the more i awaken the less useful i am' lol
I completely relate to what you are saying. Ever since it happened, (it was a wonderful moment of realisation, peace and the deepest joy I had ever experienced) but now I feel I cannot fit into the world no matter how hard I try. I feel like I have found what I have been looking for so...what is the point? I'm not depressed about it - just frustrated. I don't have the urge to struggle anymore and before enlightenment I struggled for years. I feel happy and content but directionless now.
Cassandra. Her name was Cassandra. An elightened one couldn't care less about all what he is saying. The joy of being is completely free from all these mental concepts. Mankind is not mad. It is as it is.
1:"to laugh or cry at the human condition":does this imply sadness/aloofness or the overwhelming joy of awareness?
2: the whole idea of influence is surely a plus,"no credit" a downside, but why the bother over credit?Is it merely a realism or seemingly a negativity and attachment to self and accreditation?
3:"not knowing what you're saying":another ignorism, or just being a witnessing tool for the better good?
4:"you have to OCCUR"=classic final line, I will "steal" it and not break sila :D
That character from Greek mythology is "Cassandra".
Shinzen Young is for me, the greatest teacher I have ever heard. I have never met him, but have listened to many of his tapes, and no one can explain this stuff to me like he can. This information is literally a lifesaver. Understanding how to penetrate and dissolve pain, and turn it back into flowing energy, instead of constantly trying to escape it, is probably the most important piece of info I have ever learned. THANKS.
I don't really know what to comment. I just know these are the questions and answers I've been looking for. Now all I need to do is accomodate... So, thank you, Shinzen.
mileylevesque 1 week ago
why disable embedding?
fhumayun 1 week ago
Shinzen Young is wrong when he suggests that enlightenment is entry into no-self (0:33-36). The Buddha never denied the self or affirmed that the self is the five aggregates (panca-skandhas). For the Buddha the self was transcendent.
"What is empty is ‘samsara’ and what is not empty is great ‘nirvana’ ... Perceiving the non-self but not the Self [atman] is not the Middle Way. The Middle Way is Buddha nature. — Mahaparinirvana Sutra [T. 12, p. 523b] (Atman = Buddha nature = Middle Way)
mujaku 3 weeks ago
@mujaku Perhaps a look at this from the perspective of the 10-Fetters would clarify where Shinzen is coming from? The entire personality belief vanishes on attaining stream entry, it would make sense to describe this realization as seeing that there is no self but it doesn't tell the whole story. The problem is, and it's probable that this is why they Buddha never denied or affirmed a self, that to describe no-self requires the concept of self to arise in the mind. Neither is true or false.
IdentMusic 1 week ago
@IdentMusic There are two forms of what is generally called no-self. There is "nattha atta" lit. no self. This is nihilism. The Buddha did not teach this. Then there is anatta, lit., not-the-self. This pertains to the five khandhas. Each one we are to consider as not my self. And why? Because the khandhas belong to death and Mara the Evil One. The khandhas ARE suffering which is the first ariya truth. Remember the Buddha said Self and Dhamma are refuges when he is gone.
mujaku 1 week ago
@mujaku I understand what you're saying, I'm not disputing or disagreeing that. My only point was regarding the attainment of stream entry, but I also know that this is where things get complicated and beyond a youtube exchange. You appear to know considerably more than me about Buddhism as a whole, my practice has been in the Theravadan tradition but I'll check out your blog. Thanks.
IdentMusic 1 week ago
@mujaku Also, Atman is not "Buddha nature", you may be mistaking the identification of one's "true self" with the Dhammakaya. All dharma are empty...
IdentMusic 1 week ago
@IdentMusic The Lord taught otherwise in the Mahayanamahaparinirvanasutra:
"The atman is the Tathagatagarbha. All beings possess a Buddha Nature: this is what the atman is. This atman, from the start, is always covered by innumerable passions (klesha): this is why beings are unable to see it."
Shinzen needs to remove the dust from his eyes and stop looking at Buddhism with the eye of flesh.
mujaku 1 week ago
@mujaku
I would perhaps substitute some reading for sitting. To me what Shinzen Young speaks of makes perfect sense. Peace & Love!
Yobo77 1 week ago
@Yobo77 He is for beginners. There is no doubt. It is important to study Sutta/Sutra. Without this study, anyone can say the Buddha taught such and such when in fact he did not. For example, lots of modern Buddhist believe that the Buddha taught there is no self (Pali, nattha attâ). Not true. That would be annihilationism.
mujaku 1 week ago
@mujaku From a Mahayanist perspective, perhaps. Others may disagree. I've checked out some of your other comments, you clearly know what you're talking about so I'm wondering why you continue to disagree with Shinzen when he's saying the same thing as you are, just from a different angle on the thing when it comes to what constitutes 1st path.
IdentMusic 1 week ago
@IdentMusic You can find me at The Zennist blog. See if we are not different for yourself.
mujaku 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
This is a beautiful explanation by my Guru ji. Its a must read for all the spiritual seekers who want to know the true meaning of enlightenment.
spirituallifemysteries.blogspot.com/2012/01/what-is-enlightenment.html
notRolin 1 month ago
I'm not asserting anything about the speaker's needs. And I understand that it's possible to desire something--e.g., credit--and yet not be compelled or controlled by that impulse. However, it still strikes me as incongruous to suggest that not receiving credit would be a downside to a enlightenment, a state of being in which, by definition, mundane distinctions about "self" and "other" are transcended. Put another way, what does "taking credit" even mean to a "no-self"?
atheistcartoons 1 month ago
hahaha...i strive with that....its not ME (the ego)....it works THROUGH me...as soon as i try to catch it, i am left alone with my EGO. when i let my ego go, it comes...
kikoneify 2 months ago
He says a downside is that "you don't get to take credit." But if you're "enlightened, " such that you see the illusory nature of self, why would you feel a need to take credit? That is, isn't a need to get credit just a type of clinging that is part of an unenlightened state of being?
atheistcartoons 4 months ago
I emailed you my two cents about that.
aspiringbodhisattva 3 months ago
@atheistcartoons My point of view is that I don't see a feeling of a need in him to take the credit, and if you watch he never says anything about feeling any need.Remember an enlightened person can still prefure an outcome over another and feel enjoyment just like everyone else, the difference lies in there is no strong attachment to it. They can enjoy having sex, smoking a odd cigarette or prefer a tv program over another, without the strong need like others, other than there biological pull.
useruseruser111 1 month ago
hmmm so what is it that needs to be done? I will try to believe you.
nusphere 8 months ago
@nusphere What needs to be done is this: step into the present moment, accepting it as it unfolds and dwelling in it forever.
Thank you
SikhiArt 7 months ago
@SikhiArt OK I'm there! I mean here, now. Thanks for your response SikhiArt ;)
nusphere 7 months ago
i become enlightened at age of 23!!!. looking at the people around me. i would rather be a surgeon who enjoys his job and life than feeling constantly empty and useless to the society.
feetman12 9 months ago
wow, I'm very glad you posted this video. i deeply relate to everything you said. it can be extremely confusing to the mind.
kscott0218 10 months ago
Nice one, spot on!!
gabrielandkailash 11 months ago
Fulfilled but empty at the same time. It is very strange. How do you continue pretending to fit in with people who are still struggling and seeking when you do not have the desire and urge to do the same anymore? All I want to do is pray and meditate everyday, eat and sleep, maybe do some gardening and then go to bed. It is that simple but life and all of its daily complications doesn't seem to support that need. What to do? lol
skybird141 1 year ago
@skybird141 i don't think he has any desire to do so, but yeah i've heard other enlightened people saying 'the more i awaken the less useful i am' lol
mutageno 10 months ago
I completely relate to what you are saying. Ever since it happened, (it was a wonderful moment of realisation, peace and the deepest joy I had ever experienced) but now I feel I cannot fit into the world no matter how hard I try. I feel like I have found what I have been looking for so...what is the point? I'm not depressed about it - just frustrated. I don't have the urge to struggle anymore and before enlightenment I struggled for years. I feel happy and content but directionless now.
skybird141 1 year ago
Shinzen knows stuff. He explains it pretty well.
bamboosa 1 year ago
Shinzen is like someone who sees. Though he still needs glasses.
bamboosa 1 year ago
Cassandra. Her name was Cassandra. An elightened one couldn't care less about all what he is saying. The joy of being is completely free from all these mental concepts. Mankind is not mad. It is as it is.
caspareisermann 1 year ago
so true!
VenusAsABoyFilms 1 year ago
1:"to laugh or cry at the human condition":does this imply sadness/aloofness or the overwhelming joy of awareness?
2: the whole idea of influence is surely a plus,"no credit" a downside, but why the bother over credit?Is it merely a realism or seemingly a negativity and attachment to self and accreditation?
3:"not knowing what you're saying":another ignorism, or just being a witnessing tool for the better good?
4:"you have to OCCUR"=classic final line, I will "steal" it and not break sila :D
graemegeohall 1 year ago
God damn this guy never ceases to amaze.
Shinzen is like.... what is he like?
I don't know.
T1Brit 1 year ago
@T1Brit he is a cool dude ;)
jasio1337 10 months ago
That character from Greek mythology is "Cassandra".
Shinzen Young is for me, the greatest teacher I have ever heard. I have never met him, but have listened to many of his tapes, and no one can explain this stuff to me like he can. This information is literally a lifesaver. Understanding how to penetrate and dissolve pain, and turn it back into flowing energy, instead of constantly trying to escape it, is probably the most important piece of info I have ever learned. THANKS.
Raina430 2 years ago
Thanks for sharing! I am feeling way better than before watching this video... Thanks!
matafixer 2 years ago