Churches should be placed under the auspices of the food and drug administration. They must prove their product is real, and does what it says, and has the effect they pretend. If they can't, they should be categorized as a business and taxed.
@billzybobb When they make medican claims, they should be held to the same standards as medicine companies. But I'd say the same for other scammers, not just faith healers. Homeopathy and Chiropractic are also scams without any medical validity and those peddling it should be treated by the law as scamming crooks along with faith healers.
I think the only reason I disagree with attempting to tax churches at this time, is that it's a waste of effort. The theocracies are too firmly entrenched within the government. Not only have the corporate personhood worshiping Mammonist overthrown the US, their Dominionist representatives (like the Norwegian terrorist) enforce more lunacy as law, every day. I think the laws on the books should try to be enforced first, namely the anti-racketeering RICO act. Seize & imprison the grifters.
@DonQuixotedeKaw But, on the assumption that these card houses will soon fall from their own top heaviness, I would propose a mitigation tax, on all individual members of any theocratic formation. Any belief based organization (theistic or not) that so much as preaches to a squirrel in the yard, should have each of its members be heavily taxed, for the damages they're doing to society, and the monetary costs of psychological and educational mitigation, that they incur on the entire nation.
@DonQuixotedeKaw In addition, as theisms, ritualized in groups, are the root of MOST theocracies, which go on to become terrorists, theistic groups should have to be registered, and their meetings recorded and monitored by watchdog groups. Their registration fees will pay the costs of said groups. When any meetings are discovered as being held in private, the individuals are fined. Then after 3 strikes, be arrested on suspicion of theocratic terrorism.
The only objection I have to taxing churches is that as soon as we start taxing churches, they can start hiring lobbyists to go to Washington to lobby for for what they want. If corporate america is a sign of anything its that the more people who are in your pocket the more you benefit. Now imagine these mega churches with the same power.
how do you get yourself declared a religious organisation? it'd be a great idea to create a BIG group who are "pastafarians", and thus be tax free... what a great idea to turn it back on them, by using this tax "loop-hole" to our advantage!!!
@THEMrFill The council of Europe and several countries have recognized Pastafarianism as a legitimate religion. As Richard Dawkins experienced with his RDFRS, it's far easier to get tax-free status as a religious group than as any secular group. Apparently, all you need to to is fill out the form, explain that you're going to share the faith, and you're about done. You don't have to do any charity at all, all you need is to declare your money flow, not even have a pro accountant.
since I'm in the UK, maybe we should set-up a tax exempt status, and then all "work" for it, for free of course, and we claim expenses for everything we do, since it's all in the name of the church...
sounds like a plan to me - praise be His Noodly Appendages!
I don't see a reason for even the poor churches to be exempt from taxes. I see no reason that they should be tax exempt because they have trouble financing their personal drives to spread their dogma. If I wanted to start a church for the FSM and call it a not-for profit organization, I should have to prove that the vast majority of what I'm doing is beneficial to society for tenable reasons if I expect non-profit tax exemption. Just saying that I'm spreading the good word is not enough.
@anubis2814 That is basically my point. This blanket exemption under the 'religion' umbrella is being horribly abused. First, Jesus drives the money changers and sacrifice sellers out of the temple, now he has a mega large money laundering service, established under the guise and protections of being a religious concern.
@anubis2814 Why would this be a problem? They could fill out tax forms like other orgs. and take actual building expenses, up to a certain limit, and charitable works as expenses.
I'd also look at taxing the colleges and medical business. Claim to be non-profit and build massive palaces of health that display an embarrassment of riches and suffering. They may see some indigents, but also get grants, donations, and insurance revenue and charge specialist fees for overworked interns.
Size is the key factor. Where does one draw that line. Many also have schools and college outreaches. I know some where is pastors 'opt out' and do not pay taxes, but they signed a contract with the gov't giving up all claim to any social security or medicare. Completely on the church infrastructure. Are they creating jobs ?
If religion doesn't become tax free once prostitution becomes legal people will claim religion (There was a sect in Greece that worshiped Aphrodite which was practically a brothel)
Re the smaller sects, this is an easy problem to solve. The same formula used to compute progressive income tax could easily be applied to religious organizations,with a zero tax rate for those whose incomes are below a certain level. However the tax should be free from all loopholes such as claiming your pastor's private jet as a necessary expense.
Easy fix. If a church or religious organization takes in over a certain amount, say $100,000/year, then they must start paying taxes. This saves the smaller churches while taxing the larger churches.
All churches should be taxed there making millions a year for the large ones. Any legal business should pay taxes. Churches make money and are businesses. If they have there own building they should pay taxes.
@yuo252 then we should be taxing all non profit groups that own any property. Doctors Without Borders, all of them. As suggested by colourmegone, a fair formula that doesn't destroy community groups can be arrived at.
@tattooskin72 driving them underground would be a serious mistake in the long run. Besides, those churches are not the source of the political problems with Christianity in the states. I don't want to tax religion per se, I want to tax the profits.
@painlessreborn It is. I hate seeing poor people who can barely feed their kids giving money to these fucking vampires. The ones making the real dough don't believe the shit they spew out their mouths. Everything in their book tells them they are condemned, if you judge by the book.
If god exists he has nothing to do with religion and has no need for money, so to hellwith religion, if they want to keep their churches then they should be useful and be taxed, I would use those taxes to promote education and security. Much better.
Churches should be placed under the auspices of the food and drug administration. They must prove their product is real, and does what it says, and has the effect they pretend. If they can't, they should be categorized as a business and taxed.
billzybobb 7 months ago
@billzybobb When they make medican claims, they should be held to the same standards as medicine companies. But I'd say the same for other scammers, not just faith healers. Homeopathy and Chiropractic are also scams without any medical validity and those peddling it should be treated by the law as scamming crooks along with faith healers.
wrjamescom 7 months ago
would audits be a way of policing these mega churches and preachers?especially those who are so blantantly opulant.
practicalmagic9 7 months ago
@practicalmagic9 I don't know but I believe that if you are liable for taxation you must also be open to tax audit.
MacNutz2 7 months ago
I think the only reason I disagree with attempting to tax churches at this time, is that it's a waste of effort. The theocracies are too firmly entrenched within the government. Not only have the corporate personhood worshiping Mammonist overthrown the US, their Dominionist representatives (like the Norwegian terrorist) enforce more lunacy as law, every day. I think the laws on the books should try to be enforced first, namely the anti-racketeering RICO act. Seize & imprison the grifters.
DonQuixotedeKaw 7 months ago
@DonQuixotedeKaw But, on the assumption that these card houses will soon fall from their own top heaviness, I would propose a mitigation tax, on all individual members of any theocratic formation. Any belief based organization (theistic or not) that so much as preaches to a squirrel in the yard, should have each of its members be heavily taxed, for the damages they're doing to society, and the monetary costs of psychological and educational mitigation, that they incur on the entire nation.
DonQuixotedeKaw 7 months ago
@DonQuixotedeKaw In addition, as theisms, ritualized in groups, are the root of MOST theocracies, which go on to become terrorists, theistic groups should have to be registered, and their meetings recorded and monitored by watchdog groups. Their registration fees will pay the costs of said groups. When any meetings are discovered as being held in private, the individuals are fined. Then after 3 strikes, be arrested on suspicion of theocratic terrorism.
Theism should be a right-theocracy a crime.
DonQuixotedeKaw 7 months ago
Who cares if they collapse? Tax all religious organizations.
BitterCanuck 7 months ago 2
Love the change to the buffer bar. Now I can't tell when I can play my videos! T_T
LeksServices 7 months ago
@LeksServices buffer bar??
MacNutz2 7 months ago
@LeksServices - Everyone needs to bug report the buffer bar. What were they thinking by making it effectively invisible?
LeksServices 7 months ago
@LeksServices Oh, that 'improvement'. how does one do a bug report?
MacNutz2 7 months ago
The only objection I have to taxing churches is that as soon as we start taxing churches, they can start hiring lobbyists to go to Washington to lobby for for what they want. If corporate america is a sign of anything its that the more people who are in your pocket the more you benefit. Now imagine these mega churches with the same power.
TheHtennek 7 months ago
@TheHtennek they already do that
MacNutz2 7 months ago
I agree. They need to pay their fair share and render unto Caesar.
phenixwryter 7 months ago
Glory.
richardmann184 7 months ago
how do you get yourself declared a religious organisation? it'd be a great idea to create a BIG group who are "pastafarians", and thus be tax free... what a great idea to turn it back on them, by using this tax "loop-hole" to our advantage!!!
THEMrFill 7 months ago
@THEMrFill The council of Europe and several countries have recognized Pastafarianism as a legitimate religion. As Richard Dawkins experienced with his RDFRS, it's far easier to get tax-free status as a religious group than as any secular group. Apparently, all you need to to is fill out the form, explain that you're going to share the faith, and you're about done. You don't have to do any charity at all, all you need is to declare your money flow, not even have a pro accountant.
blackwolf1200 7 months ago
@blackwolf1200
since I'm in the UK, maybe we should set-up a tax exempt status, and then all "work" for it, for free of course, and we claim expenses for everything we do, since it's all in the name of the church...
sounds like a plan to me - praise be His Noodly Appendages!
THEMrFill 7 months ago
I don't see a reason for even the poor churches to be exempt from taxes. I see no reason that they should be tax exempt because they have trouble financing their personal drives to spread their dogma. If I wanted to start a church for the FSM and call it a not-for profit organization, I should have to prove that the vast majority of what I'm doing is beneficial to society for tenable reasons if I expect non-profit tax exemption. Just saying that I'm spreading the good word is not enough.
GrapplingIgnorance 7 months ago
But Peter Popoff says god will send me money if I use the miracle water
Remdog44 7 months ago
How about a tiered membership tax.
Small churches 10-200 members free
medium churches 201-600 members taxed
large churches >601Heavily taxed
wyvernlord23 7 months ago
@wyvernlord23 Rehab? I say no no, nooo! Almighty should be able to fund those small ones too.
lolingattheism 7 months ago
George Carlin once said that God needs your money.
Chaoitcme 7 months ago
@Chaoitcme Yes, apparently God is strapped and can't make the light bill again. It seems God has always had trouble making ends meet.
MacNutz2 7 months ago
@MrJohnnyrace These bastards represent the epitome of what I am talking about.
MacNutz2 7 months ago
Hear hear. If they want tax-free status on religious grounds, GOD should sign the application forms.
AuntieDiluvian 7 months ago
@AuntieDiluvian Hell, I would like to get an autograph on his damned book.
MacNutz2 7 months ago 2
Churches that are doing actual charity should get tax exempt status and held by the tax exempt status strict rules.
anubis2814 7 months ago
@anubis2814 That is basically my point. This blanket exemption under the 'religion' umbrella is being horribly abused. First, Jesus drives the money changers and sacrifice sellers out of the temple, now he has a mega large money laundering service, established under the guise and protections of being a religious concern.
MacNutz2 7 months ago
@anubis2814 Why would this be a problem? They could fill out tax forms like other orgs. and take actual building expenses, up to a certain limit, and charitable works as expenses.
curlew0609 7 months ago
I'd also look at taxing the colleges and medical business. Claim to be non-profit and build massive palaces of health that display an embarrassment of riches and suffering. They may see some indigents, but also get grants, donations, and insurance revenue and charge specialist fees for overworked interns.
tenagliac 7 months ago
Size is the key factor. Where does one draw that line. Many also have schools and college outreaches. I know some where is pastors 'opt out' and do not pay taxes, but they signed a contract with the gov't giving up all claim to any social security or medicare. Completely on the church infrastructure. Are they creating jobs ?
tenagliac 7 months ago
I like following this discussion. It's so far away from the discussion in my country where the church is state and the priests are state employees.
goxster 7 months ago
I like following this discussion. It's so far away from the discussion in my country where the church is state and the priests are state employees.
goxster 7 months ago
@goxster Avoiding that state of affairs is what this discussion is about, in the long run.
MacNutz2 7 months ago
If religion doesn't become tax free once prostitution becomes legal people will claim religion (There was a sect in Greece that worshiped Aphrodite which was practically a brothel)
yuo252 7 months ago
Re the smaller sects, this is an easy problem to solve. The same formula used to compute progressive income tax could easily be applied to religious organizations,with a zero tax rate for those whose incomes are below a certain level. However the tax should be free from all loopholes such as claiming your pastor's private jet as a necessary expense.
colourmegone 7 months ago
Easy fix. If a church or religious organization takes in over a certain amount, say $100,000/year, then they must start paying taxes. This saves the smaller churches while taxing the larger churches.
lautz73 7 months ago
@lautz73 Or any church with its own building and over twenty members must pay taxes.
yuo252 7 months ago
All churches should be taxed there making millions a year for the large ones. Any legal business should pay taxes. Churches make money and are businesses. If they have there own building they should pay taxes.
yuo252 7 months ago
@yuo252 then we should be taxing all non profit groups that own any property. Doctors Without Borders, all of them. As suggested by colourmegone, a fair formula that doesn't destroy community groups can be arrived at.
MacNutz2 7 months ago
@MacNutz2 Non profit organizations give there money away. Churches often use the money to renovate get advertisement send people on missionary trips.
yuo252 7 months ago
You do make some valid points about the smaller churches... though I'm not sure I'd feel bad about those going under. Does that make me a bad person?
everything else I can agree with 100%
tattooskin72 7 months ago
@tattooskin72 driving them underground would be a serious mistake in the long run. Besides, those churches are not the source of the political problems with Christianity in the states. I don't want to tax religion per se, I want to tax the profits.
MacNutz2 7 months ago
@painlessreborn It is. I hate seeing poor people who can barely feed their kids giving money to these fucking vampires. The ones making the real dough don't believe the shit they spew out their mouths. Everything in their book tells them they are condemned, if you judge by the book.
MacNutz2 7 months ago
Thank you for talking about this.
If god exists he has nothing to do with religion and has no need for money, so to hellwith religion, if they want to keep their churches then they should be useful and be taxed, I would use those taxes to promote education and security. Much better.
viicISrotcib 7 months ago
@viicISrotcib I will have more to say on this in the future. This was just a start.
MacNutz2 7 months ago