12-27 - United Pentecostals -VS- Christianity - DEBATE

[SurfaceOfTheEye]

You begin to wonder why Israel fell into idolatry, as well as worshipping YHVH... They certainly had a concept of composite unity!

[MrHellowwww1]

@SurfaceOfTheEye Thoses facts are not reasons Israel fell idolatry. That is like saying the Trinity is pagan while the virgin birth could be considered pagan as well. You have pick your faith over facts. What did God say about knowledge good and bad?

Before the Bible was created, the Jews had the Zohar. It spoke of God unity.

YHVH used Elohim , Gods in Hebrew, 2340+ vs El , God in Hebrew, 200+ to describe himself both with singular verbs.

Facts not a theology view.

[CubanStylez101]

@GamerFTW21 Blasphemy is probably the biggest thing you could be accused of in those times if you were Jewish. You keep saying that they couldn't find a reason or that he was God; yes we know that; but they didn't. They just saw a man who was going around saying he was the Christ. Remember also Jesus did not follow the Sabbath which was another thing that Jewish leaders didn't like; he also went against sacrificing killing in order to offer gifts to God. These things went against Jewish beliefs.

[CubanStylez101]

@GamerFTW21 The Romans simply crucified Jesus in order to keep the status quo; the Jewish leaders wanted him crucified for one of two reasons; either because prophecy said so and they knew what had to happen to him; or because they feared that he would change the establish Jewish laws.

[CubanStylez101]

@CubanStylez101 I would say Jewish leaders had many reasons.. There was fear and hatred; but there was also jealously because they saw how people followed him instead of following the Jewish leaders. Their power was being challenged.

[CubanStylez101]

@GamerFTW21 Yes there were revolts previously; but is highly unlikely that these Jewish revolts were going to destroy the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire had far larger enemies to be worried about. Eventually they were invaded by the Vikings who had no connection whats so ever with the Jews; but thats another story.

[CubanStylez101]

@GamerFTW21 Actually; if there was any fear it would be of Jesus because large crowds of people following him and listening to him; many people believed he was the messiah/king of the earth; this already goes against Roman Law; because the Roman King is king of the Earth. So Jews brought Jesus to trail on the accounts that he believed he was king of the earth. Pilate ordered Jesus to be killed because he wanted to keep control of the Jews. There was no fear of war; he just didn't want one.

[CubanStylez101]

@GamerFTW21 Well first of all the Jews feared Jesus far more than the Romans did. This is why Pontius Pilate was reluctant to have Jesus killed; he found Jesus to be innocent. The Jews were smart; they had the Romans arrest him, order his execution and crucify him so they wouldn't have the blame or all the blame for the death of Jesus. Let me not say the Jews because it wasn't all of them; it was the Jewish leaders. Pilate wasn't affraid of a revolt from the Jews;

[CubanStylez101]

@GamerFTW21 Well, remember the Jews gave him up, but the Romans were the ones that literally killed him. Remember they were Pagan; so this notion of the Messiah or One God was even more offending to them.

[CubanStylez101]

@GamerFTW21 Well; we are told that they misunderstood the prophecies; but are you 100% sure of that? I mean I figure they would understand it more than us because THEY wrote it, and it was written in their language. Now I am not denouncing Jesus; I'm just trying to give the view of the Jewish side. But; even as a believer in Jesus I could say that they did it because it was in prophecy that he would be killed by his own people. I think they were just following prophecy.

[CubanStylez101]

@GamerFTW21 Remember the Jews were waiting for someone named Emmanuel; but they got someone by the name of Joshua or Jesus. Its like if I told you; hey Gamer today this guy named Eric is going over to your house to pick up the money you owe me; but then someone named Steve comes along and tells you to give him the money.... This is sort of the way many Jews felt... We can't sit here and speculate that Jews knew he was the savior; we must assume that most didn't know because they had him killed.

[CubanStylez101]

@GamerFTW21 Well, I could see you have your own definition of "cult" but its not for us to interpret the definition; it means what it means and you could search it in any dictionary. Now yes we today could see that Jesus is our savior and he was what the prophecy was talking about; but many Jews didn't see that. You are saying he could change many Jewish Beliefs and Traditions because he made them; well the Jews didn't know that, they saw him as another fake.

[CubanStylez101]

@GamerFTW21 Well if you use the technical definition of a cult then Jesus and his followers were a cult. They were the minority not the majority; they brought new beliefs and radical ideas like Jesus being God or the Son of God. You have Jesus putting down many Jewish beliefs and traditions; he would have been looked as a revolutionary of his time.... So yes, the first Christians and Jesus would be considered a Cult by definition.

[ydnar0591]

They need to get saved recieve the Holy Spirit and Then they will understand the Deep things of God like the Trinity.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The johnny come latelys that did not come into being until 1900, should ask themselves if WE ONLY have truth, then everyone back to Adam without OUR TRUTH is lost. This "oneness " came awful late in time.

[ydnar0591]

The word trinity is not in the Bible BUT,a lot of words that are believed are not in the Bible !

However God is not going to hand you all that he knows in scripture on a platter, he wants us to dig it out, he said so:

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

He wants us to study our Bibles. Therfore some things will always be mysteries until we rightly divide the Word of Truth, and find them.

[01jimjames]

Dr. martin only contradicts himself to those who cannot adequately process information... like the Jesus only Hillbillies. They thought they had greater light but it was the light of gnosticism

[01jimjames]

The word UPC is not in the Bible. Therefore they are not biblical. Is there any one so ignorant as these poor humble but deluded souls? All cults blame the catholic church, The Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons, the Jesus Only, all use the catholic church because they don't have the intelligence to understand the trinity. You have to have a revelation from Jesus to understand the trinity.

[01jimjames]

The word UPC is not in the Bible. Therefore they are not biblical. Is there any one so ignorant as these poor humble but deluded souls?

[rossdaboss1959]

This trinity guy need to look at Isaiah 44:24, 45:12, 17-19, 22, 46:5,8-10. I don't expect him to understand without the Holy Ghost anyway. It's just a waste of time trying to make somebody believe if the Holy Ghost don't reveal it to them.

[Pjaynes781]

The Trinitarians keep making the point for the oneness guys. If you listen closely to what Dr. Martin is saying he's actually agreeing with the UPC guys. He even says, and I quote, "The eternal God, Jesus Christ". that statement proves the oneness theory. I cant see anybody saying how the Trinitarians won. On another note, its to bad that Satan is trying to use this kind of stuff to confuse people who want to serve Christ.

[ProveYourFaith]

The Hebrew says one grape cluster he left out the cluster part. what a liar.

[soranneo]

I can see by your fruits that you are no christian. Jesus and his disciples were not a cult and neither am I. You dont know half of what Dr Walter Martin does. Stop wasting everyones time with all of your definitions. The best thing you can do is except the Lord Jesus and be saved.

[ProveYourFaith]

Your Trinity God will bless no man. You ask what degrees do I have? That question itself exposes you as the Pharisee. What degrees did Jesus have? Any man both ignorant and educated can look at the Greek old testament and see that The Father said ὁ ὤν· and Jesus said ἐγώ εἰμί . I have a video explaining this great error of thinking I AM is a name.

[ProveYourFaith]

Martin is an idiot Jesus said "Ego emi"

Yah said "Ho on sent you"

[eternalpunx]

Ego emi is the Greek rendering of Ho on. Jesus quoted a lot of verses from the Septuagint which is the Greek rendering of the Old Testament Scriptures.

[ProveYourFaith]

Ho on is Greek ὁ ὤν·

[TrueSaintsLDS]

Ex-nihilo is complete BS too!

There is NO such thing as out of NOTHING as the Nicean council decided.

[TrueSaintsLDS]

The Word Trinity is NOT found in the bible, and the doctrine is not in the bible either.

Trinitarians are misinterpretting scriptures and Trinity is a product of the fourth century councils of Nicea. Creeds of the Roman Catholic Church do NOT reflect the teachings of the EARLY forefathers of the church or the apostles.

FAIRLDSdotORG

[soranneo]

you are sadly mistaken. Get your head out of the clouds and see the true. It says over and over that all three are one. It does not have to say the word trinity for it to be so. Only children would come to some kind of conclusion like that. It says it in black and white. Pray about this and let the Lord speak to your heart. You make this much harder than it has to be. The way you speak leads me to believe that your a part of the united pentecostals. Focus on the Lord.

God bless.

[TrueSaintsLDS]

It doesn't say they are a three headed polymorphing goo God like trinity teaches. that is creedal crap! The councils of Nicea were uninspired men.

[tjean8]

@soranneo please tell me when it says all three are one. I hope you are not referring to 1John 5:7 because it does not say 3person. The record is 3. Just like in school if i was late to school that went in my record, if i fight someone that went in my record, if i cheated that went in my record but i only have one record. This verse would support oneness not trinitiarian. It never stated 3person. Not 2 mention that this verse is a insertion in the scripture. Trinitiarian try to add to the bible

[IsaacBG84]

@soranneo

"Focus on the Lord."

Im on the Oness church but i agree that we as a body of christ should focus on the most important thing of the world Jesus..God bless

[odeivonimajneb]

Don't plug your shamefull mental midget website! If you want a real debate on this topic watch the video! And prove your worthless Book of Mormon archeologically and scientifically accurate. Not one sword, not one coin, not one city, not one shield, no art, no chariots, no arrow heads. Just a stupid story that suckered in tons of fools! PROVE IT! Show me one coin, show me some baskets or art and buildings. You have NOTHING! Ha

[FINGERJONSIN]

@TrueSaintsLDS is jehovah God? is Jesus God or a God?

[123itisfree]

@TrueSaintsLDS Following your reasoning, the Bible does not have the word "B-I-B-L-E", so there is no Bible.

[theembracedofgod]

OWNED

[cryinglion]

0:49 Very interesting prophetic happening of 9/11 (not to say Dr Martin was predicting it). But he was right about the unity at the time.

[tedybearcentral]

we are all wrong if we don't worship God the Rock, God the Cloud, God the pillar of Fire and God the burning bush...is it really hard to believe that spirit and flesh can union as one being because this is how we were designed after the image...Jesus is the mold by which God created us and while he did not exist in our natural time...he existed in the mind of God and was not, until it was the timing of God to create him.

[LSPNUEMA]

AMEN

[tjean8]

Number 13:23 about the cluster of grapes not being big enough for two man to carry it unless its not many grapes. Not true. If you think about where they was at. They where in a land of Giant and in Number 13:33 talks about how small they are compared to the Giants. Think about this if the grape wasnt that big than how would the Giants get full of food. Its just like two ants taking a grape. To them its big but to me its little.

[eddiefalhaus]

Is this for real? It's not the land where everything is Giant. It's the land where giants dwell. Giants are perfectly capable of simply eating more normal sized food.

[tjean8]

@eddiefalhaus your right Giants are perfectly able to eat capable grapes. But the bible do not state that. Your going off of bad assumption. But this man's analogy of using numbers 13 is bad b/c when the word echad is used it means 1 in the abolute value. the only way that it can mean a composite unit if the the sentence points out a composite unit. like the he stated in the hebrews word for cluster was not there and it was simple said one grape singluar.

[eddiefalhaus]

The passage states: 23 "When they reached the Valley of Eshcol, [b] they cut off a branch bearing a single cluster of grapes. Two of them carried it on a pole between them, along with some pomegranates and figs." From that we could surmise that there was lots of them or that they were larger than ordinary, but it is not a necessity that they were carrying one lone grape because otherwise giants would not be full.

I believe 'yachid' is numeric one , whereas 'echad' is a unified one.

[tjean8]

The reason why i responded to that is because he was trying to justify the shema in deuteronomy 6:4 as a composite unit and he tried using verse 23 which was a bad example. The shema does not show or indicate any composite unity But this arguement really wouldnt go nowhere b/c we werent there but it would more likely go in my favor but ino you would think other wise.

[tjean8]

Dr. Martin does not have the revelation. His statement about adam and eve being one. Well think about this in Gen 1:27 it says he made male and female but adam was the only man that God made. God saw that in adam was eve before she was made. So thats why they are one. And thats why the bible speak about a man and a woman being one.

[nilhav]

To Israel God says Isa 43:10. "You are My witnesses," says HaShem, "and My servant whom I chose," in order that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me no god was formed and after Me none shall be. 11. I, I am HaShem, & besides Me there is no Savior"

So according to Dr Martin, if God cannot reveal to Israel the trinity then how can Israel be expected to follow the command not to worship another? Israel is His witnesses of who He is, not the Church.

[gbologa]

Well done Dr. Martin!!!

[msb0000]

This is the episode with the Coup de grace! Dr. Martin devasted the modalists!

[jesusmanky]

Dr.Martin is the fulfillment of what the Apostle Paul wrote in (2 Timothy 3:7)Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[jesusmanky]

Dr. Martin could never proove trinity baptismal formula and could never refute (Acts 2:38,8:16,10:46-48,19:1-7). Jesus name Baptism was the original formula used in Baptism and the roman catholic church admits they changed the formula. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, vol 2, page 377, Catholics acknowledge that baptism in Jesus' namewas changed by the Catholic church

Funny God could be a rock, a cloud, a pillar of fire, a burning bush but God cannot be manifest in the flesh as Jesus!

[stopplayingchurch]

are you skysplash -soranneo?

[obbeachbum69]

The stupidity of this "debate" is clearly stated at 7:41.

[nilhav]

The Greek Jesus uses to say "I am" is not the same in the Greek Septuagint that God uses in Exodus.

[exodusx599]

Actually, yes it is.

[nilhav]

There are various versions of the Septuagint, so it is not the origininal. Plus "I am" means "I be" "I exist." It doesn't make him God.

[nilhav]

Walter's example sucks. Disobedient Israel doesn't count, obedient and righteous Israel never believed in a trinity, or that the messiah would be God.

[GreekOrthodoxy]

No one could say it better than Walter.

[pastorrobertehardy]

This so crazy. anyone who has studied Greek understands the importance of pronouns. The understanding of the Greek proves. It must have been so frustating debating the Pentecostals because they don't understand the agrument. They have to keep explaining that trinitarians don't believe three Gods.

[cincytuckyblk]

Hold up pastor, all Pentecostals are not Oneness. Please correct yourself.

[timothaeus85]

Then you are not a true Pentecostal.

The term Pentecostal stems from the first church being formed on the day of pentecost. Check it out the first church was Oneness.

[Psalm127v3]

MEANWHILE, people are dying and going to HELL and we argue some more.

WOW! 8minutes and 59 seconds.

It is said that 2000 people die every minute, 80% are not born again, that means 1600 per minute split hell wide open, do the math during this 8:59 video a lot of people split hell wide open and listen to these self righteous baboons argue. GO TELL SOMEONE ABOUT THE BLOOD AND STOP FIGHTING!!!

[JayEss2k]

Do you think them not having this debate would have stopped 2000 people from dying in that minute.

These things need to be covered because its essential to the Christian faith

[JESUSISLOVE7777777]

well The Tinitarians keep trying to say GOD is three separate dieties, when GOD is only one, who functions as 3 different things for man's salvation. just like i may be a male, student and son, that don't mean i'm 3 separate persons

[lawtonhenry87]

No, trinitarians NEVER say that God is three deities. That is a straw-man argument (attacking a position that the other side does NOT hold) that UPC's use in their misunderstanding of the doctrine of the trinity. Trinitarians believe that God is ONE, and that His nature is triune. Three-in-one.

[JESUSISLOVE7777777]

not really, i have emails and comments from those who say GOD is three separate things, and im saying he's not. hes one that does 3 different things concerning man's salvation

[JESUSISLOVE7777777]

and that was to lawtonhenry87

[lawtonhenry87]

If that is so, then it's unfortunate, because true trinitarian doctrine does not describe God as three beings. The Bible clearly states that God is one. To claim otherwise would be a serious misinterpretation of Scripture.

Just like adherents to Oneness theology, trinitarians are monotheistic.

The difference is found when trying to understand the characteristics of the "oneness" of God - to use UPC terminology. Trinitarian doctrine maintains, "composite unity," to which Dr. Martin refers.

[lawtonhenry87]

I speak for myself when I say that I believe God is one, yet somehow, the New Testament seems to show characteristics of God that are not adequately explained by Oneness theology. We could go on forever about this using countless examples, but I'll stick to one: Jesus' baptism. Jesus in human form, the Holy Spirit as a dove, and the Father as a voice from heaven. Somehow, someway, there is distinction. Even if we can't quite get our minds around it, that's what happened.

[lawtonhenry87]

Now I'm sure that you have your own interpretation of that passage that fits your theology. I'm just trying to explain where I'm coming from. I am a trinitarian, and I would never deny that God is one. The nature of that "oneness" is what this question is all about.

[JESUSISLOVE7777777]

yes, he is ONE GOD. and he functions as 3 diff roles in our lives and salvation, but they are not 3 separate. and if you dont believe they are separate, that is wonderful!! because i have been corrected by other trinitarians and they constantly reaffirm me and say that GOD is 3 separate persons, but the Bible says otherwise. so its not necessarily UPC.

[cincytuckyblk]

1x1x1=1.

[drjones444]

1+1+1=3

[lajones1615]

1x1x1+1

[cincytuckyblk]

Thanks lajones1615. That was 1x1x1=3 and the math is correct. I don't argue. I think this debate is solid. They even have a seminary named after the former leader that was featured on the debate. The Greek and Hebrew don't lie.

[lajones1615]

My purpose is not to argue also. I used the + instead of a = in my reply. I didn't see your reply. That's why I tried to write 1x1x1=1. Greek and the Hebrew do support Trinitarian Doctrine. The Oneness movement came out of the Assembly of God. They were put out for their teachings. The Assembly of God came out of COGIC. They both are trinitarian. It looks like we are in agreement.

[Psalm127v3]

THese things are NOT essential to the Christian faith.

Please show me where Christ said to debate with one another.

"Go ye into all the world...."

[cincytuckyblk]

I think God gives people gifts. These men have the gifts of apologetics. However, people need truth when they come to Jesus.

[cincytuckyblk]

Do what God has called you to do. This is strengthing some people. If you have it all, God teach it to someone.

[Psalm127v3]

This is showing people how to argue about things that OBVIOUSLY everyone who has left a comment here already thinks they are right about. I think you should teach someone the truth, but if they argue or ignore it, Jesus said to dust your feet off and move on, not start a debate or argument over it.

We are to fulfill the great commission, this is NOT doing that at all.

[lioncherub]

But what it is doing is providing an asnwer for the question. That way people can't say that there isn't an answer on such an important subject. 1 Pet 3

[Psalm127v3]

John Chapter 1 says that Jesus came and declared the father.

Declared: Means (UNFOLDED)

He unfolded God!

He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father.

[applestolic]

! tim 3:16. Done Deut 6:4

One God

[lesterall]

1. John 3:16. Hereby perceive we the love of God, because (he)laid down (his) life for us:

Colossians 2:9 for in him (Jesus) dwelleth the fullness of the God head bodily. God never revealed himself as a triune God, not that they could not understand. Are we to believe that only modern man could understand that concept.Israel was God choosen people. He only revealed (himself) as one.

[lesterall]

John 14:8-9. Lord shew us the (Father)and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have (I) been so long time with you, yet hast thou not known (me)Philip?........

[Psalm127v3]

John 1:1 and John 1:14.

DONE!

[ApostolicGodsChild]

Amen, Jesus is God but did it say that the son was with God or the word? Theirs a big difference. Gal 4: 4 tells us "God sent his son, made of a woman...".

[Psalm127v3]

John 1:1 John 1:14 John1:18

Acts tells us we were bought with the purchase of "GOD'S OWN BLOOD"!

If Jesus is not God in the flesh, then his death was in vain!!!

[ApostolicGodsChild]

Theirs no disagreement that Jesus is God.

[Psalm127v3]

Not to mention Hebrews, There are three that bear record in heaven, The Father, The Word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.

So if the son is NOT the Word, Is Jesus not in Heaven right now bearing record???

[ApostolicGodsChild]

You mean 1 John 5: 7-8, this scripture was added to the bible and is not an original saying of John. In the manuscripts, this was in brackets meaning that it was a note that someone wrote. Also if this was authentic, it could be explained.