Mässa i Heliga Trefaldighet 1 - Lutheran high church mass in Uppsala

[Champion446]

Vem var celebrant?

[karpov89]

@Champion446 Det är han i mässhaken som går sist: Björn Fyrlund. vice ordförande i arbetsgemenskapen Kyrklig Förnyelse.

[AnotherAppleMacbook]

I'm pretty sure this is what Martin Luther wanted, not these empty looking evangelical churches today.

[karpov89]

@AnotherAppleMacbook Yes maybe you are right; at least in the very beginning of the Reformation.

[Allante715]

@AnotherAppleMacbook

Agreed. Unfortunately the empty looking evangelical churches are a symptom of the Radical Reformation (Calvin, Zwingli). Lutheranism is separate movement. Luther himself disagreed big time with Calvin and Zwingli and wished to remain in the Catholic Church and reform.

Truly wish there were more Lutheran churches like this in America.

[dacatholicbandorgan]

The Swedish Lutherian Church is in Communion with Rome and the Bishops are of Apostolic succesion. All others are void, beacuse they where excommunicated.

[karpov89]

@dacatholicbandorgan Well the Church is not in Communion with Rome and the Apostolic Succession is not recognized by the Catholic Church, the same situation as for the Church of England.

[brobren]

@karpov89 As far as I know Rome has never pronounced itself on the issue of Swedish orders. That being the case I think we should say that while the Swedish Church is not in Communion with the Church of Rome they have retained Apostolic Succession and Holy Orders are considered valid. This is why so many Anglican clergymen went to Sweden to be (re)ordained by a friendly bishops there in order to remove any doubt about the validity of their Orders.

[karpov89]

@brobren Well Bishops and priests of the Catholic Church has made statements and I am convinced the orders are not valid according to the Catholic Church, in the same way as the orders of the Anglican Church are not valid. Intersting that Anglican clergymen has come here to be ordanied, I did not know that.

[dsindc]

@dacatholicbandorgan You posted this comment some time ago, but it is simply untrue. The Roman Church is not in communion with ANY Lutheran church, the ELCA in the U.S.A. , the national churches of Sweden, Norway or Finland. And as an Episcopalian I would not want to be in communion with Rome frankly. The Roman Church is rotting from the head down. By the way, the Orthodox are also NOT in communion with Rome.

[karpov89]

@dsindc Yes you are right about that, I did not see that commentary. It is in only in communion with the churches in the Anglican communion and the Lutheran churches of the Lutheran world federation. Though communion with the bishop of Rome must be something for all Christians to desire, in the long run that is.

[dsindc]

@karpov89 Only if the Bishop of Rome agrees to assume the role as the "first among equals" ( primus inter pares), similar to the Eastern Orthodox. The current role of the Pope became distorted during the Middle Ages. At this time it is highly unlikely this will happen. In any case, the Roman Church has become so distorted I'm not sure who wants to be in communion with them.

[karpov89]

@dsindc Well I do not agree with you on that.

[dsindc]

@karpov89 Well Karpov, I hope for a happy ending for the fracture that Christianity has become, but I live in a country with 60 million Roman Catholics. That number has been stable for some time now. However, longtime catholics are leaving the church in large numbers. Immigrants are holding it steady. I have been to Europe several times and am shocked at the decline of Christianity, not just the R.C. church. A big part of the decline in America has involved the cases of sexual abuse. (cont)

[karpov89]

@dsindc About the sexual abuse, that has nothing do to with the Catholic faith, that is moral weakness of men, and now the Church seems to take it very serious. I also must say it is certainly not a decline in the Catholic church in Sweden, with about 100,000 members and 40,000 non registered members, also a small minority. I see the Catholics as our friends..of course also the Anglican Communion as the Church of Sweden is in communion with the Church of England.

[dsindc]

@karpov89 The sexual abuse cases have cost the church in the BILLIONS of dollars, but it has been the response of the church that has most infuriated catholics here. First denial, then acceptance and settlements (in cash), and now victimization - in other words it wasn't the church's fault, it was the fault of a permissive world. Please. That, and a rigid theology that is no longer speaking to the man in the pew. The church ignores all this at its own peril. I see no good news here.

[dsindc]

@karpov89 Regardless of the issues involving sexual abuse, the church has been fading for some time. It's message no longer speaks to the man in the pew. I fear that if the church, and much of Christianity does not change it will go the way of countless religions. The rigid position of the Vatican, and in particular this pope changes nothing, except it may serve to hasten the demise of the church. As an Anglican, I respect the role of Lutherans as reformers and a reformed catholic church.

[LordShadrach]

Hard to believe that people still do that over there. Belief that is...

[karpov89]

Now it is not, as we confess in one, holy catholic and apostolich church..and this is high church, like the Anglo catholics in Church of England.

[LatinoInAmerica]

Are they going to make the move back to reunification like the Anglicans did on Monday? Sweden just allowed gay marriage today in the church.

[karpov89]

Yes indeed a sad day. Seven of the bishops were against, but politicians do unfortunately have the power. However, I do think anything like that will happen right now, but maybe in a few years.

[LatinoInAmerica]

It must be done by 2012 1700 years In Hoc Signo Vinces

[karpov89]

Well it is not only up to our church but the Catholic church too.

[LatinoInAmerica]

You have to apply the priests keep their wives too. The TAC applied years ago but they let them and the Anglicans in Monday out of nowhere. We need to unite before Islam takes over.

1700 years in 2012 In Hoc Signo Vinces

[karpov89]

There are Swedish convert priests which exemptions, but you are right, that should not be necessary.

[midnightatutopia]

"Lutheran Catholic"??? Isn't that a paradox?

[bearnurse1]

No. It is not a paradox. "Catholic renewal in the Church of Sweden" means renewal of high church liturgy and other "catholic" type practices in the C o S. It does NOT mean converting to the Roman Catholic church.

[karpov89]

And it stresses that is catholic in a broad sence and it still - like the Anglican Communion - retains the Apostolic succession through an unbroken line of bishop consecrations since before the Reformation. The priests are true priests and not just a part of the priesthood of all believers.

Christianus mihi nomen est, catholicus cognomen.

[Klockfantast]

@bearnurse1 There are grades of Lutheranism, The Church of Sweden for example has kept its archbishop, while Denmark, Norway and evangelical churches in Germany didn't