"but there is a major logical gap in your thought process here: if Sally simply stayed in France, her children would never be enslaved in the first place"
Your assuming to much. It makes no sense for there to be a promise made about children that weren't born yet. This is backwards thinking. She already had children in the states under his ownership. I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand. The guy was scum. An intelligent man yes, but scum. All the white washing wont change that.
There are so many points against the argument of them having sexual relations that your comment is irrelevant. For one he hardly knew the girl - when he sent for his daughter to come to Paris he asked for her to have a respectable escort. His people at home sent Sally. At the time Jefferson was in fact fawning over Maria Cosway, and tended to try and woo intelligent woman who really had no time for him.
Do us all a favor, and please keep your uninformed comments to yourself.
@IsabellaMorte Your comment honestly made me laugh. Just how you claimed there are many points that are against him having a realtionship with her, there are 3 times as many points that said he had. And how does the fact that he was trying to woo Maria dispute the fact he had sexual relations with Sally, men have been having sex with multiple women at one for centuries. It seems to me you can't accept the fact that the good old Jefferson was doing a black slave girl. Well' he did. Sorry
Now, these facts make it all the more ironic that Jefferson was a near-lifelong slave-owner. Certainly he was a flawed man and was, in some ways, a hypocrite. The wrongdoings in which Jefferson participated should not be ignored or glossed over. However, neither should they be used to blot out or nullify the surpassingly tremendous good he did for all of mankind.
What's more, perhaps moreso than anyone else, we have Thomas Jefferson to thank for our Bill of Rights (it was Jefferson who convinced James Madison to draft the Bill of Rights and who suggested most of the items to be included therein), and, by extension, freedom of speech, religious freedom, and many other blessings. I don't know that there has ever been one person who did more in their lifetime to advance the cause of freedom than Jefferson did.
And, of course, his words in the Declaration of Independence, "all men are created equal," which were, in the original draft, proceeded by what John Adams called a "vehement philippic" against the slave trade, were instrumental in bringing about slavery's ultimate abolition.
Tthough his record in this area is a mixed and contradictory one, Jefferson probably did more to bring about the end of slavery in America than literally any other pre-Civil-War figure. He pushed in the Virginia legislature in the 1760s and '70s to end slave importation and legalize manumission, wrote the Northwest Ordinance of 1784 intended to ban slavery in all newly-acquired US territories, and, as president, ended trans-Atlantic slave importation to America, among other things.
Now, although I have written substantially in his defense, I do not mean to say Jefferson was a flawless saint; a perfect man would have freed his slaves, and would not have carried on an illicit affair with one of them (though I repeat that the Jefferson-Hemings story, while likely, is not altogether proven). Nonetheless, the efforts being made by some to portray him as a horrific monster are simply wildly over-the-top and detract from reasonable discussion of a complex and interesting figure.
Now, the claim that Jefferson began a relationship with Hemings and impregnated her with a son while they were in Paris is seen by many as considerably dubious, particularly because of the extremely contradictory content of the sources making this claim (James Callender's version has the child being named Tom and living to at least 10 years of age, while the Madison Hemings account indicates it died, apparently unnamed, shortly after birth)
, and also because of the lack of evidence of any such birth or of the existence of any such child (meticulous farm records which have been closely scrutinized reveal no sign that Sally Hemings birthed any children before 1795 or that there was ever a child named Tom of the appropriate age at Monticello). It IS definitely true, however, that Hemings gave birth to a half-dozen kids from 1795-1808 and that some or all of them were said to look white and "Jeffersonian."
Thus, although there is a strong likelihood that Jefferson did, in fact, father children with Sally Hemings, it is not necessarily the case that such a relationship began in 1780s France as depicted in some accounts (such as the one in this video). With regards, then, to the "pedophilia" charges being leveled here, it may not be true that Jefferson was involved with her in her mid-teens.
Let it be noted, moreover, that this was an era in which girls married much younger than they do now, and in which relationships between 15-year-old girls and adult men were seen as entirely legitimate. Jefferson's friend and fellow founder, James Madison, fell in love with and openly courted another 15-year-old girl in the same time period, and it was not seen by Madison, Jefferson, or society at large as anything exploitative or inappropriate.
It can be fairly pointed out that at this time, girls were generally far more mature by the age of 15 or 16 than they are now, given the relatively hard work and great responsibility they undertook from a very early stage. 15-to-16-year-olds in the 18th century did not still inhabit the childish world that people of the same age do now.
@TrentSteeele It wasn't a relationship. He was screwing his slave girl. I'm sorry your in denial but this little girl couldn't say no. She was his slave, Get it? Do you know what slavery means? You yourself admit he there was an agreement to free her children. She, even as a little girl only came back because she cared for them. If you don't understand this then go one BSing yourself its no skin off my back.
1. Yet again, assuming the Jefferson/Hemings affair started in 1780s France, Sally WAS NOT a slave at the time; while they were in France, where slavery was illegal, she was free, and she knew it.
2. Yes, I admit that if this narrative is accurate, there was an agreement that Jefferson would free her children, but there is a major logical gap in your thought process here: if Sally simply stayed in France, her children would never be enslaved in the first place.
Jefferson would never even have had any power over the slave or non-slave status of her children at any stage in their lives had she simply not come back with him, as, according to her son Madison, she and her brother James were considering. Essentially, then, it would seem that she was thinking of NOT going back out of concern for her child (and any future children), but was willing to return once the issue was settled by Jefferson's promise.
This is the 1873 account of this issue as reportedly given by Madison Hemings:
"He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so he promised extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years."
@ShamelessNation But wasn't his face on Mt Rushmore and everything? LOL
He was supposed to have freed his slaves when he died but before he died he changed his mind and made sure they stood slaves. The only thing I did like about him was that he smoked dope. Yes overrated indeed, but when you have money you can write your own History, especially with us gullible Americans who buy in to any bullshit that sounds patriotic. Washington broke his promise to the Indians too.
@ ShamlessNation Jefferson abhored slavery and commented so in many of his memoirs, not only did many of his slaves eat around the dinner table with him, but were treated with more respect than the white protestants were in england before the Declaration of Independence was written! And if you think the age difference was that bad you need to research dome of the shit that went in in paris during the 1700's
@drknprts What he wrote and what he did are two different things. In one sentence you say he abhorred slavery and in the next you admit he had slaves. In fact he abhorred the little fourteen year old every night. England abolished slavery before America did. Stay away from the history channel, their about as fair and balanced as fox news on this subject.
@Wraith23 Legalized slavery didn't end in the US until 1865 & then Jim Crow & economic slavery persisted for 90 more years, but nice try trying to change the goal post. The founding fathers were rapist and evil men who participated in human trafficking. They didn't just rape women and little girls but men and little boys also. They also committed acts of genocide lynching & mutilation This was a dark & evil time in US History. This is our heritage, but many like yourself are in denial.
@benthemiester Firstly Benjamin Franklin founded the nation's very first anit-slavery group, secondly out of fear for Hemings life he went with her to France, if you know anything about travel in the 1700's you know he could have died on that journey(as john adams almost did). Jefferson's slaves could read and write and were entitled to a better lifestyle than the poor whites in the slums of Great Britain. Our founding father were men of extraordinary intelligence don't use racism to manipulate!
@drknprts I don't know who fed you this BS but Jefferson went to Paris for the purpose of being an American envoy in 1787. He took 15 year old Hemmings to take care of his daughter & as a sexual companion. Slavery was illegal in France so he had to pay her 2$ a month while his french servants earned 12$ a month. She was going to stay in France but he threatened her that he would never free her children if she did. He kept his word at freeing them, but not until 1826. That's a bastard for you.
@benthemiester Your claims are positively chock full of spurious history. Jefferson didn't "take" Sally Hemings with him to France; she didn't even arrive until he had already been there for three years. She was sent over as a caretaker for Jefferson's daughter Polly by Jefferson's family members in 1787. Jefferson himself had suggested they send an entirely different slave named Isabel to watch Polly, but Isabel was tied up with pregnancy and childbirth at the time.
@TrentSteeele If u had read my post carefully I mentioned that one of her duties was to care for his daughter. I was responding to someone who said he went to France because he feared for Hemming's life. As for what ever else u said. I really couldn't make it out. Unless u didn't understand that her children were in the America at the time. She already had already been raped by former master and had two children by 12. He did threaten not to free her children if she didn't return this is fact.
@benthemiester No, I'm afraid you're wrong in claiming that Hemings had any children prior to her trip to Paris. Her first clearly-established birthing took place in 1795, though some have claimed she also gave birth to a child shortly after arriving back in America with Jefferson. She had no prior children. To restate what you "couldn't make out":
Jefferson did not "bring" Sally Hemings with him to France or even ask that she come. She was sent after he had already been there three years.
@benthemiester Furthermore, Jefferson certainly did not "threaten never to free her children" if she stayed in France; that wasn't even a threat he could possibly make in that position, given that she, and by extension, any offspring she subsequently bore, was in a position to simply CLAIM her own freedom and leave Jefferson to return home without her. He COULDN'T make any such threats. Sally did apparently consider life at Monticello preferable to freedom in France.
And just to clarify this comment for anyone who isn't well-versed in these matters, slavery had been outlawed in France at this time, and thus Sally Hemings and her brother James were legally free while they were there. Accordingly, Jefferson could not force them to return to America with him, and if the account said to have been given by Sally's son, Madison, is correct, then they did, in fact, strongly consider remaining in Paris and going free before Jefferson struck a deal with Sally.
@benthemiester Yet still further, if the "he-promised-in-France-to-free-her-children-if-she-came-back-with-him" story is true (which is by no means established beyond doubt- and if it is true, you've still wildly distorted it), then, in fact, according to its original source (the Madison Hemings account of 1873), the agreement was that he would free them once they reached the age of 21, and, as a matter of fact, he let two of her children, Beverly and Harriet Hemings, go free in 1822.
@TrentSteeele I suggest you read my post again. I already said he freed them in 1822. Your squibling about dates that were already mentioned but you can't deny that he raped a 15 year old little girl. This is and was wrong. People of this age knew very well the difference between right and wrong despite what your 3rd grade school teacher told you. One other thing, please brush up on your math 1787-89 and 1822 are a lot more than 21 years. He also never freed slaves when he died as promised.
@benthemiester It is actually you who are in gross factual error on numerous points. Regarding the "1787-1789 and 1822 are a lot more than 21 years," you are apparently unaware of the age of Hemings' children. She gave birth to Beverly and Harriet Hemings in 1798 and 1801, and they both went free in 1822, meaning that Beverly was marginally over the 21-year mark, though we don't know the particulars of his release (eg. he may simply have chosen to stay past his 21st birthday).
@benthemiester He freed her other surviving chldren, Madison and Eston, who were born in 1805 and 1808, in his will. The story about his having promised her that he would do this while they were in Paris originates from an account purportedly by Madison Hemings, which was published in 1873; according to this account, Jefferson did, in fact, fully comply with the terms of his agreement with Hemings in France- which he did not have to do, since after they had returned, she was once more his slave.
@benthemiester Moreover, if it is the case that Jefferson and Hemings began a sexual relationship in France in the 1780s (by no means proven- the evidence that they had a relationship, while strong, is not conclusive, and assuming that they did, the assertion that it began in Paris is debatable, for reasons I will go into later), then, in fact, as you yourself have noted, she was free at the time (under Parisian law) and chose to return to Monticello with Jefferson and continue the relationship.
@drknprts It has nothing to do with him being white, He was just a prick. The guy was raping a 15 year old girl. She didn't have the right to say no. She was his slave, and I hate to break it to you but they were fucking their slaves. This man wasn't a country bumkin. His writings clearly showed he knew the difference between right and wrong in a most profound way. People back then knew it was wrong but they didn't care. Again, even the English and French abolished this evil before America did.
@drknprts Correction.... he freed her children in 1822 and Sally wasn't freed until after his death in 1826 but that's still a long time from 1787-89.
@drknprts Franklin did not found the first anti slavery org. That happened in England years before. Franklyn was the first president of the reorganized American chapter after it had become politically incorrect in the north. He was a politician & like Jefferson he didn't always practice what he preached because he himself was a slave owner but again, nice try. You have an interesting way of revising and white washing history. The stuff they spoon fed you in grammar school is called propaganda.
@benthemiester you'll notice i said "the nation's" first anti slavery, are we England? NO! thanks to those like Jefferson! HA! I didn't learn this stuff in grammar school, I learned in the library on my own accord. Yes I will admit that they sure seemed hypocritical of them to own slaves, however their slaves were provided with the same commodities the average worker in the modern day work force gets. And people like Jefferson tried make sure that wouldn't happen, but race absorbed morons did...
@drknprts I guess we all have our fairy tales that comfort us at some point in our lives. Manifest Destiny etc, If you want to believe the slaves had it good, then that's your choice, but as long as there may potentially be children within ear shot, I will tell the truth, no matter how embarrassing or painful. If there is a young person listening out there, don't believe the Bullshit. Please research this on your own. This was a great evil and no amount of revisionism can erase it.
@benthemiester Thomas Jefferson was obscenely rich and could afford to treat his slaves as well as any wal-mart employee is treated today. You're focusing on Sally Hemings. Ever hear of Billy Lee, or Donald Regner? "The worst kind of slave is the one who doesn't know he isn't free" Jefferson and others put together thousands of years of human progress and people like you who would discredit a man based on a flaw undid all that work in about 200 years. But i'm sure your idols are perfect.....
@milltownballer15 I hate to break this to you, but DNA evidence proves that Eston Hemings, one of Sally Hemings son, was a descendant of either Thomas Jefferson or one of his male relatives. Considering that there was alot of historical accounts that Jefferson was having an affair with Hemings, it is more likely that Thomas Jefferson was the father.
The miniseries 'Jefferson in Paris' sucks They cast a much too-old, much too-dark (eyes, hair, skin) Mulatto (Thandie Newton) to play the role of Sally Hemings, a 12-year old, very fair-complexioned Quadroon. In addition, the screen play has Hemings (who again would have been a fearful 12 year old) as "the seductress" of "poor, helpless Jefferson" The disgusting role-reversed/dark-seductress false portrayal of Jefferson's sexual-abuse of Hemings ruined the whole miniseries
IT WAS 'RAPE" It was NOT a "relationship" As a young, enslaved CHILD (despite having white skin, gray eyes, brown hair) HEMINGS HAD NO CHOICE in the sexual exploitation of/assault on her sexual/reproductive organs To minimize, justify or excuse his exploitation of this enslaved person is as bad as excusing/ justifying any of the forms of enslavement Hemings life was more akin to that of the kids in today's 3rd-world-child-brothels
IT WAS NOT A "ROMANCE"! HEMINGS (a white-skin, brown-hair, grey-eyed Quadroon, look-alike half-sister of Jefferson's dead wife) WAS A 12 YEAR OLD ENSLAVED GIRL WHEN JEFFERSON 1st SEXUALLY ABUSED her. He even had a room built off his bedroom that he kept her LOCKED IN at night & also enslaved the Octoroon kids she had by him (although a few ran away w/o being hunted down by him) Locking up a 12 year old CHILD for use of sexual abuse & exploitation is NOT a "ROMANCE" -- IT IS CALLED RAPE.
Love story? Are you muthafuckas crazy? She was behind enemy lines and trying to make the best of it.She would have gotten raped/beaten anyway you slice it!! Whatever helps you whitefolks sleep at night & believe you good at heart.You have alot more work to do in that department.
@lunargoddess this is in response to your statement that sally resembled jefferson's wife, it was because they were half sisters my dear. he slept with two sisters. and he also fathered 8 children by sally. and as far as her looking black, according to the law she is black and looked black.
@ kurtload Owner slave relations during slavery is hard to prove as consensual. You need a free will in order to have consensual sex. When you are a slave by definition you have no free will. In chattel slavery a black person was a piece of property if Sally refused she and her children could be sold on whim at a moments notice. People want to gloss over the harsh reality that slave master relations were really just a sort of breeding mechanism for the owners while satisfying their own lust.
That's a 21st century judgment on 18th century standards. Many girls were married at around that age back then. A pedaphile is someone who likes small children, so that term does not apply to sex with females who are nearing physical adulthood.
So what else are you basing your insulting remarks on?
He did it because he could. His position in society led him to many opportunities. He was one of the best America had to offer at the time and that's not saying much. If they were as great as people make them out to be, slavery never would have existed on this continent for as long as it did. Taking liberties of one's servants (irregardless of color) is as old as time.
She may have wanted some action, I never said it was rape. She chose to be with him even after he granted her freedom (according to most accounts). I agree with your 18th century standards analogy and this was quite a common occurrence. Then, just as now, most of the population viewed such activity (unless the 50 year old man chose to marry the 14 year old) as scandalous, even though it still happened.
@LambadLambadLambda Even in the 18th century girls of 14 were considered a no no. Marriages DID NOT take place at this age. It was considered an unacceptable age for marriage. However, I've read that Jefferson prefered Hemings because she resembled his dead wife (they were half sisters) and was a very fair woman. She didn't look like a Black woman. She was described as an 'octoroon' which makes her barely Black. Not that it matters.
there actually is credible research that suggests that the relationship between the two of them (while not being equal in any way) was some sort of twisted love story. While rape of black female slaves by their white male masters was a common occurrence in American Slavery, it would be a gross generalization and a denial of the humanity of these black/white characters to say that a "love" story or an intimate sexual liaison could not and did not exist
@jordan484 I would say YOU are dumb as hell. For the simple reason you have not done your research. jefferson NEVER bought any slaves, he inherited them. BIG DIFFERENCE. Jefferson himself DETESTED slavery. he argued against slavery many times, but he was delt to take care of a family members property. Inheriting something means it was GIVEN to you, it does NOT mean you wanted it.
@jordan484 funny hwow utterly uneducated you are. Either your close minded or you arte illiterate and can;t read. Jefferaon INHERITED THE SLAVES HE HAD. he did NOT support slavery itself. Same with Robert E lee, Lee believe slavery was a sin and when he inherited his uncles slaves, he freed them. Jefferson freed and EDUCATED Sally Hemmings. Educating blacks was also AGAINST THE LAW in jefferson's time.
@jordan484 LOL is that the best you can come up with? White lies?HAH! You can't come up with historical facts so you blabber mindlessly.No Columbus did NOT discover America. he discovered the West Indies.Otherwise known as the Carribean Islands. He was also appointed governer there a few years later by Spain's Monarchy but was taken from power because he was cruel.
@crazycuntryboy2 you're in denile like a muthafucka!!! Jefferson was a animalistic bastard like the rest of 'em. When they went to France & they offered her asylum,he tried to MAKE her come back with him by hold her family as ransom,so she finally caved in and returned.Read up on it mane.She was NEVER freed as that WAS against the law.
See Helen F.M. Leary video on YT about Jefferson/Sally Hemings.
anitalc1 9 months ago
way to white to play roll
6183078 11 months ago
I have to do her for a project
Krysprocks1 1 year ago
"but there is a major logical gap in your thought process here: if Sally simply stayed in France, her children would never be enslaved in the first place"
Your assuming to much. It makes no sense for there to be a promise made about children that weren't born yet. This is backwards thinking. She already had children in the states under his ownership. I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand. The guy was scum. An intelligent man yes, but scum. All the white washing wont change that.
benthemiester 1 year ago 3
@benthemiester Except that there is absolutely no evidence that she had children in the states since she was about 14 when she went to Paris.
SaraiCrazyShow 1 year ago
LOL!
whayes8084 1 year ago
@ShamelessNation
There are so many points against the argument of them having sexual relations that your comment is irrelevant. For one he hardly knew the girl - when he sent for his daughter to come to Paris he asked for her to have a respectable escort. His people at home sent Sally. At the time Jefferson was in fact fawning over Maria Cosway, and tended to try and woo intelligent woman who really had no time for him.
Do us all a favor, and please keep your uninformed comments to yourself.
IsabellaMorte 1 year ago
@IsabellaMorte
What a long (and stupid) reply to such an irrelevent comment.
Do us all a favor and back your attitude with action by not replying to "irrelevent" comments.
ShamelessNation 1 year ago
@IsabellaMorte Your comment honestly made me laugh. Just how you claimed there are many points that are against him having a realtionship with her, there are 3 times as many points that said he had. And how does the fact that he was trying to woo Maria dispute the fact he had sexual relations with Sally, men have been having sex with multiple women at one for centuries. It seems to me you can't accept the fact that the good old Jefferson was doing a black slave girl. Well' he did. Sorry
loveyankee2 1 year ago
Now, these facts make it all the more ironic that Jefferson was a near-lifelong slave-owner. Certainly he was a flawed man and was, in some ways, a hypocrite. The wrongdoings in which Jefferson participated should not be ignored or glossed over. However, neither should they be used to blot out or nullify the surpassingly tremendous good he did for all of mankind.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
What's more, perhaps moreso than anyone else, we have Thomas Jefferson to thank for our Bill of Rights (it was Jefferson who convinced James Madison to draft the Bill of Rights and who suggested most of the items to be included therein), and, by extension, freedom of speech, religious freedom, and many other blessings. I don't know that there has ever been one person who did more in their lifetime to advance the cause of freedom than Jefferson did.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
And, of course, his words in the Declaration of Independence, "all men are created equal," which were, in the original draft, proceeded by what John Adams called a "vehement philippic" against the slave trade, were instrumental in bringing about slavery's ultimate abolition.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
Tthough his record in this area is a mixed and contradictory one, Jefferson probably did more to bring about the end of slavery in America than literally any other pre-Civil-War figure. He pushed in the Virginia legislature in the 1760s and '70s to end slave importation and legalize manumission, wrote the Northwest Ordinance of 1784 intended to ban slavery in all newly-acquired US territories, and, as president, ended trans-Atlantic slave importation to America, among other things.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
Now, although I have written substantially in his defense, I do not mean to say Jefferson was a flawless saint; a perfect man would have freed his slaves, and would not have carried on an illicit affair with one of them (though I repeat that the Jefferson-Hemings story, while likely, is not altogether proven). Nonetheless, the efforts being made by some to portray him as a horrific monster are simply wildly over-the-top and detract from reasonable discussion of a complex and interesting figure.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
Now, the claim that Jefferson began a relationship with Hemings and impregnated her with a son while they were in Paris is seen by many as considerably dubious, particularly because of the extremely contradictory content of the sources making this claim (James Callender's version has the child being named Tom and living to at least 10 years of age, while the Madison Hemings account indicates it died, apparently unnamed, shortly after birth)
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
, and also because of the lack of evidence of any such birth or of the existence of any such child (meticulous farm records which have been closely scrutinized reveal no sign that Sally Hemings birthed any children before 1795 or that there was ever a child named Tom of the appropriate age at Monticello). It IS definitely true, however, that Hemings gave birth to a half-dozen kids from 1795-1808 and that some or all of them were said to look white and "Jeffersonian."
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
Thus, although there is a strong likelihood that Jefferson did, in fact, father children with Sally Hemings, it is not necessarily the case that such a relationship began in 1780s France as depicted in some accounts (such as the one in this video). With regards, then, to the "pedophilia" charges being leveled here, it may not be true that Jefferson was involved with her in her mid-teens.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
Let it be noted, moreover, that this was an era in which girls married much younger than they do now, and in which relationships between 15-year-old girls and adult men were seen as entirely legitimate. Jefferson's friend and fellow founder, James Madison, fell in love with and openly courted another 15-year-old girl in the same time period, and it was not seen by Madison, Jefferson, or society at large as anything exploitative or inappropriate.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
It can be fairly pointed out that at this time, girls were generally far more mature by the age of 15 or 16 than they are now, given the relatively hard work and great responsibility they undertook from a very early stage. 15-to-16-year-olds in the 18th century did not still inhabit the childish world that people of the same age do now.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
@TrentSteeele It wasn't a relationship. He was screwing his slave girl. I'm sorry your in denial but this little girl couldn't say no. She was his slave, Get it? Do you know what slavery means? You yourself admit he there was an agreement to free her children. She, even as a little girl only came back because she cared for them. If you don't understand this then go one BSing yourself its no skin off my back.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@benthemiester Benthemeister:
1. Yet again, assuming the Jefferson/Hemings affair started in 1780s France, Sally WAS NOT a slave at the time; while they were in France, where slavery was illegal, she was free, and she knew it.
2. Yes, I admit that if this narrative is accurate, there was an agreement that Jefferson would free her children, but there is a major logical gap in your thought process here: if Sally simply stayed in France, her children would never be enslaved in the first place.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
Jefferson would never even have had any power over the slave or non-slave status of her children at any stage in their lives had she simply not come back with him, as, according to her son Madison, she and her brother James were considering. Essentially, then, it would seem that she was thinking of NOT going back out of concern for her child (and any future children), but was willing to return once the issue was settled by Jefferson's promise.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
This is the 1873 account of this issue as reportedly given by Madison Hemings:
"He desired to bring my mother back to Virginia with him but she demurred. She was just beginning to understand the French language well, and in France she was free, while if she returned to Virginia she would be re-enslaved. So she refused to return with him. To induce her to do so he promised extraordinary privileges, and made a solemn pledge that her children should be freed at the age of twenty-one years."
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
@ShamelessNation But wasn't his face on Mt Rushmore and everything? LOL
He was supposed to have freed his slaves when he died but before he died he changed his mind and made sure they stood slaves. The only thing I did like about him was that he smoked dope. Yes overrated indeed, but when you have money you can write your own History, especially with us gullible Americans who buy in to any bullshit that sounds patriotic. Washington broke his promise to the Indians too.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@ ShamlessNation Jefferson abhored slavery and commented so in many of his memoirs, not only did many of his slaves eat around the dinner table with him, but were treated with more respect than the white protestants were in england before the Declaration of Independence was written! And if you think the age difference was that bad you need to research dome of the shit that went in in paris during the 1700's
drknprts 1 year ago
@drknprts What he wrote and what he did are two different things. In one sentence you say he abhorred slavery and in the next you admit he had slaves. In fact he abhorred the little fourteen year old every night. England abolished slavery before America did. Stay away from the history channel, their about as fair and balanced as fox news on this subject.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@benthemiester
England abolish slavery in 1830
America's northern state abolished it in 1787
Considering a federal system America acted quicker than England against slavery.
Wraith23 1 year ago
@Wraith23 Legalized slavery didn't end in the US until 1865 & then Jim Crow & economic slavery persisted for 90 more years, but nice try trying to change the goal post. The founding fathers were rapist and evil men who participated in human trafficking. They didn't just rape women and little girls but men and little boys also. They also committed acts of genocide lynching & mutilation This was a dark & evil time in US History. This is our heritage, but many like yourself are in denial.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@Wraith23 Correction........ if you were American this would be a part of your heritage.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@benthemiester Firstly Benjamin Franklin founded the nation's very first anit-slavery group, secondly out of fear for Hemings life he went with her to France, if you know anything about travel in the 1700's you know he could have died on that journey(as john adams almost did). Jefferson's slaves could read and write and were entitled to a better lifestyle than the poor whites in the slums of Great Britain. Our founding father were men of extraordinary intelligence don't use racism to manipulate!
drknprts 1 year ago
@drknprts I don't know who fed you this BS but Jefferson went to Paris for the purpose of being an American envoy in 1787. He took 15 year old Hemmings to take care of his daughter & as a sexual companion. Slavery was illegal in France so he had to pay her 2$ a month while his french servants earned 12$ a month. She was going to stay in France but he threatened her that he would never free her children if she did. He kept his word at freeing them, but not until 1826. That's a bastard for you.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@benthemiester Your claims are positively chock full of spurious history. Jefferson didn't "take" Sally Hemings with him to France; she didn't even arrive until he had already been there for three years. She was sent over as a caretaker for Jefferson's daughter Polly by Jefferson's family members in 1787. Jefferson himself had suggested they send an entirely different slave named Isabel to watch Polly, but Isabel was tied up with pregnancy and childbirth at the time.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
@TrentSteeele If u had read my post carefully I mentioned that one of her duties was to care for his daughter. I was responding to someone who said he went to France because he feared for Hemming's life. As for what ever else u said. I really couldn't make it out. Unless u didn't understand that her children were in the America at the time. She already had already been raped by former master and had two children by 12. He did threaten not to free her children if she didn't return this is fact.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@benthemiester No, I'm afraid you're wrong in claiming that Hemings had any children prior to her trip to Paris. Her first clearly-established birthing took place in 1795, though some have claimed she also gave birth to a child shortly after arriving back in America with Jefferson. She had no prior children. To restate what you "couldn't make out":
Jefferson did not "bring" Sally Hemings with him to France or even ask that she come. She was sent after he had already been there three years.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
@benthemiester Furthermore, Jefferson certainly did not "threaten never to free her children" if she stayed in France; that wasn't even a threat he could possibly make in that position, given that she, and by extension, any offspring she subsequently bore, was in a position to simply CLAIM her own freedom and leave Jefferson to return home without her. He COULDN'T make any such threats. Sally did apparently consider life at Monticello preferable to freedom in France.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
And just to clarify this comment for anyone who isn't well-versed in these matters, slavery had been outlawed in France at this time, and thus Sally Hemings and her brother James were legally free while they were there. Accordingly, Jefferson could not force them to return to America with him, and if the account said to have been given by Sally's son, Madison, is correct, then they did, in fact, strongly consider remaining in Paris and going free before Jefferson struck a deal with Sally.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
@benthemiester Yet still further, if the "he-promised-in-France-to-free-her-children-if-she-came-back-with-him" story is true (which is by no means established beyond doubt- and if it is true, you've still wildly distorted it), then, in fact, according to its original source (the Madison Hemings account of 1873), the agreement was that he would free them once they reached the age of 21, and, as a matter of fact, he let two of her children, Beverly and Harriet Hemings, go free in 1822.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
@TrentSteeele I suggest you read my post again. I already said he freed them in 1822. Your squibling about dates that were already mentioned but you can't deny that he raped a 15 year old little girl. This is and was wrong. People of this age knew very well the difference between right and wrong despite what your 3rd grade school teacher told you. One other thing, please brush up on your math 1787-89 and 1822 are a lot more than 21 years. He also never freed slaves when he died as promised.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@benthemiester It is actually you who are in gross factual error on numerous points. Regarding the "1787-1789 and 1822 are a lot more than 21 years," you are apparently unaware of the age of Hemings' children. She gave birth to Beverly and Harriet Hemings in 1798 and 1801, and they both went free in 1822, meaning that Beverly was marginally over the 21-year mark, though we don't know the particulars of his release (eg. he may simply have chosen to stay past his 21st birthday).
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
@benthemiester He freed her other surviving chldren, Madison and Eston, who were born in 1805 and 1808, in his will. The story about his having promised her that he would do this while they were in Paris originates from an account purportedly by Madison Hemings, which was published in 1873; according to this account, Jefferson did, in fact, fully comply with the terms of his agreement with Hemings in France- which he did not have to do, since after they had returned, she was once more his slave.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
@benthemiester Moreover, if it is the case that Jefferson and Hemings began a sexual relationship in France in the 1780s (by no means proven- the evidence that they had a relationship, while strong, is not conclusive, and assuming that they did, the assertion that it began in Paris is debatable, for reasons I will go into later), then, in fact, as you yourself have noted, she was free at the time (under Parisian law) and chose to return to Monticello with Jefferson and continue the relationship.
TrentSteeele 1 year ago
@drknprts It has nothing to do with him being white, He was just a prick. The guy was raping a 15 year old girl. She didn't have the right to say no. She was his slave, and I hate to break it to you but they were fucking their slaves. This man wasn't a country bumkin. His writings clearly showed he knew the difference between right and wrong in a most profound way. People back then knew it was wrong but they didn't care. Again, even the English and French abolished this evil before America did.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@drknprts Correction.... he freed her children in 1822 and Sally wasn't freed until after his death in 1826 but that's still a long time from 1787-89.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@drknprts Franklin did not found the first anti slavery org. That happened in England years before. Franklyn was the first president of the reorganized American chapter after it had become politically incorrect in the north. He was a politician & like Jefferson he didn't always practice what he preached because he himself was a slave owner but again, nice try. You have an interesting way of revising and white washing history. The stuff they spoon fed you in grammar school is called propaganda.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@benthemiester you'll notice i said "the nation's" first anti slavery, are we England? NO! thanks to those like Jefferson! HA! I didn't learn this stuff in grammar school, I learned in the library on my own accord. Yes I will admit that they sure seemed hypocritical of them to own slaves, however their slaves were provided with the same commodities the average worker in the modern day work force gets. And people like Jefferson tried make sure that wouldn't happen, but race absorbed morons did...
drknprts 1 year ago
@drknprts I guess we all have our fairy tales that comfort us at some point in our lives. Manifest Destiny etc, If you want to believe the slaves had it good, then that's your choice, but as long as there may potentially be children within ear shot, I will tell the truth, no matter how embarrassing or painful. If there is a young person listening out there, don't believe the Bullshit. Please research this on your own. This was a great evil and no amount of revisionism can erase it.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@benthemiester Thomas Jefferson was obscenely rich and could afford to treat his slaves as well as any wal-mart employee is treated today. You're focusing on Sally Hemings. Ever hear of Billy Lee, or Donald Regner? "The worst kind of slave is the one who doesn't know he isn't free" Jefferson and others put together thousands of years of human progress and people like you who would discredit a man based on a flaw undid all that work in about 200 years. But i'm sure your idols are perfect.....
drknprts 1 year ago
Thomas Jefferson having an affair with Sally Hemings was debunked.
milltownballer15 1 year ago
@milltownballer15 I hate to break this to you, but DNA evidence proves that Eston Hemings, one of Sally Hemings son, was a descendant of either Thomas Jefferson or one of his male relatives. Considering that there was alot of historical accounts that Jefferson was having an affair with Hemings, it is more likely that Thomas Jefferson was the father.
TheCalebson 1 year ago
APGifts 1 year ago
APGifts 1 year ago
APGifts 1 year ago
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APGifts 1 year ago
Love story? Are you muthafuckas crazy? She was behind enemy lines and trying to make the best of it.She would have gotten raped/beaten anyway you slice it!! Whatever helps you whitefolks sleep at night & believe you good at heart.You have alot more work to do in that department.
RedSkullthagreat 1 year ago
I love this story. I loved this movie. One of the best movies I've ever seen. I wish I could find where to purchase it or see it again.
etamuhs1 1 year ago
what movie are these scenes from?
thickmiss23 1 year ago
that girl is pretty. anyone know her name?
D22queen 1 year ago
@D22queen - the two actresses shown are Thandie Newton and Carmen Ejogo,
MsKelleys 1 year ago
@lunargoddess this is in response to your statement that sally resembled jefferson's wife, it was because they were half sisters my dear. he slept with two sisters. and he also fathered 8 children by sally. and as far as her looking black, according to the law she is black and looked black.
onyxdiamond7 1 year ago
I love this movie what's the name of the song?
ronssexybikerbae 1 year ago
U love this movie. What's The name Of the song?
ronssexybikerbae 1 year ago
@ kurtload Owner slave relations during slavery is hard to prove as consensual. You need a free will in order to have consensual sex. When you are a slave by definition you have no free will. In chattel slavery a black person was a piece of property if Sally refused she and her children could be sold on whim at a moments notice. People want to gloss over the harsh reality that slave master relations were really just a sort of breeding mechanism for the owners while satisfying their own lust.
steffielmonte 1 year ago
@ShamelessNation
That's a 21st century judgment on 18th century standards. Many girls were married at around that age back then. A pedaphile is someone who likes small children, so that term does not apply to sex with females who are nearing physical adulthood.
So what else are you basing your insulting remarks on?
LambadLambadLambda 1 year ago
@LambadLambadLambda
Ok...so I hope you would like your 14 year old daughter bringing a middle aged man home. Good standards.
ShamelessNation 1 year ago
He did it because he could. His position in society led him to many opportunities. He was one of the best America had to offer at the time and that's not saying much. If they were as great as people make them out to be, slavery never would have existed on this continent for as long as it did. Taking liberties of one's servants (irregardless of color) is as old as time.
Commentarian1 1 year ago
@Commentarian1
Maybe she wanted some action too. You don't know that it was a "rape" do you?
LambadLambadLambda 1 year ago
She may have wanted some action, I never said it was rape. She chose to be with him even after he granted her freedom (according to most accounts). I agree with your 18th century standards analogy and this was quite a common occurrence. Then, just as now, most of the population viewed such activity (unless the 50 year old man chose to marry the 14 year old) as scandalous, even though it still happened.
Commentarian1 1 year ago
@LambadLambadLambda Even in the 18th century girls of 14 were considered a no no. Marriages DID NOT take place at this age. It was considered an unacceptable age for marriage. However, I've read that Jefferson prefered Hemings because she resembled his dead wife (they were half sisters) and was a very fair woman. She didn't look like a Black woman. She was described as an 'octoroon' which makes her barely Black. Not that it matters.
lunargoddess2002 1 year ago
@LambadLambadLambda Good point, indeed! I applaud you.
LoquaciousInkSlinger 1 year ago
Wth! How the you make a "love" story out of a massa and his sex slave? Some people are dumb as hell.
Before you make a video like this,do the research!
jordan484 2 years ago
@ jordan484 I agree 100%. I couldn't have put it better myself!
derektheproducer 2 years ago
@jordan484
there actually is credible research that suggests that the relationship between the two of them (while not being equal in any way) was some sort of twisted love story. While rape of black female slaves by their white male masters was a common occurrence in American Slavery, it would be a gross generalization and a denial of the humanity of these black/white characters to say that a "love" story or an intimate sexual liaison could not and did not exist
kurttoad 1 year ago
@jordan484 I would say YOU are dumb as hell. For the simple reason you have not done your research. jefferson NEVER bought any slaves, he inherited them. BIG DIFFERENCE. Jefferson himself DETESTED slavery. he argued against slavery many times, but he was delt to take care of a family members property. Inheriting something means it was GIVEN to you, it does NOT mean you wanted it.
crazycuntryboy2 1 year ago
@crazycuntryboy2 Shut your stank ass up!jefferson was just as bad as the others.just like lincoln and as he so called freed the slaves
jordan484 1 year ago
@jordan484 funny hwow utterly uneducated you are. Either your close minded or you arte illiterate and can;t read. Jefferaon INHERITED THE SLAVES HE HAD. he did NOT support slavery itself. Same with Robert E lee, Lee believe slavery was a sin and when he inherited his uncles slaves, he freed them. Jefferson freed and EDUCATED Sally Hemmings. Educating blacks was also AGAINST THE LAW in jefferson's time.
crazycuntryboy2 1 year ago
@crazycuntryboy2 appologies for the typing errors, im quite busy so i am typing rather fast
crazycuntryboy2 1 year ago
@crazycuntryboy2 Another white man lie.I guess christopher columbus discovered america LOL
jordan484 1 year ago
@jordan484 LOL is that the best you can come up with? White lies?HAH! You can't come up with historical facts so you blabber mindlessly.No Columbus did NOT discover America. he discovered the West Indies.Otherwise known as the Carribean Islands. He was also appointed governer there a few years later by Spain's Monarchy but was taken from power because he was cruel.
crazycuntryboy2 1 year ago
@crazycuntryboy2 Did i say any white lie?lol
jordan484 1 year ago
@crazycuntryboy2 you're in denile like a muthafucka!!! Jefferson was a animalistic bastard like the rest of 'em. When they went to France & they offered her asylum,he tried to MAKE her come back with him by hold her family as ransom,so she finally caved in and returned.Read up on it mane.She was NEVER freed as that WAS against the law.
RedSkullthagreat 1 year ago
@crazycuntryboy2 Jefferson was SOOOO against slavery it continued for how long after his demise?Even in his presidency he was a hypocritical bastard.
RedSkullthagreat 1 year ago
DAMN lucky thomas jefferson!!!
i wish i had a girl that beautiful.
Unfortunately for Jefferson, this is foribben love/lust. :(
darkshadow955 2 years ago
Wow, she looks beautiful at 58 secs.
TonyN737 2 years ago
i like it cuz it's real.
theblackscorpion1814 2 years ago
uabdime, Girl you are going to get some crazy comments on this video. LOL LOL
vford43 2 years ago
thanks for sharing! what is the title of the movie do you know? I'd like to check it out. very well done!
skypurple15 2 years ago