Mozarabic Baptism

[joesuaiden]

@VisigothSpain I never denied the rite was Hispanic (as in Hispania, since Portugal also used this rite) but the term "Mozarabic" was originally a slur. The rite was once the national rite, and because of its reduction to a few chapels by Rome (the rest being prohibited) the Mozarabs were those associated with those churches. While there is a revival of interest in the rite in Spain, people are forgetting how it was lost to begin with.

[maimonidis]

god bless all mozarabic people, you are the proud of spain!!

[Pseudoiamblichus3]

He could have at least done it in Latin.

[josephsuaiden]

We had the Latin text. We opted for it in English.

[CapitanToffe]

¿siempre fue católica? Tambien fue ARRIANA pero los católicos los asesinaron. ¡Si no hubiese existido guerra entre arrianos y católicos, nunca hubieran entrado el ejército bereber en 711!

[joesuaiden]

@CapitanToffe Primeramente, la guerra fue mal, pero no puede descuentar los acciones de los judios subversivas contra la rey; apoyaron los berberes en 711 despues de la Guerra Judia.

[delomehor]

la Iglesia española siempre fue catolica como lo es ahora aunque tuvo en tiempo y conserva aun un rito propio aprovado por Roma y anterior al concilio de Trentto en el q se compuso el misal anterior al actual que estuvo vigente hasta la reforma liturgica del Concilio Vaticano II

[joesuaiden]

@delomehor el Rito Mozarabe-- desaprovado por Roma desde 1080.

[VisigothSpain]

@joesuaiden don't agree at all. This rite is Spaniard. The so called "Mozárabes" were the Roman-Visigoth Catholics who lived in Spain, in the lands invaided by the moors. Where I live, a small city in S-E Spain, still today, once a year, we celebrate a mass using this rite, we call it "Misa de Rito Mozárabe". We have also an Order of Knighthood (some members of my family belong to it) called "Orden de Caballeros Mozárabes de Toledo" (Order of Mozarabic Knights of Toledo).

[delomehor]

the spanish churchs are catholics

[dareyo2002]

This mass is like orthodox liturgy.

[joesuaiden]

This "mass" was an Orthodox Baptism, and was performed according to the Hispanic Rite used when Spain was Orthodox. We are Orthodox Christians.

But it was only a baptism; not the liturgy.

[vladimir998]

Actually Spain was always Catholic. And this liturgy was compiled when Spain was overwhelmed by Muslims.

The Spainish have always been orthodox, but never Orthodox.

[joesuaiden]

Of course Spain was Catholic, as it was Orthodox. The conception of the Western Churches being "Catholic" is identical with being Orthodox at the time-- St Vincent wrote the commonitory on the Catholic Faith; it is a given he was referring to the Orthodox Faith.

As for the liturgy being compiled when Spain was "overwhelmed by Muslims", I can't help you if you believe that. You are wrong, but such a bald, false claim makes rational discussion impossible.

[nycxenia]

ROCOR, yeah, I used to be with them, until they joined "World Orthodoxy" under the MP.

Pity...

[bezmolvie]

It's unfortunate they are under that disgusting "synod"

[nycxt]

What "makes" them (in your very unexperienced opinion), "disgusting"?

[bezmolvie]

what does that even mean unexperienced opinion? lol. because it is schismatic, and leads many people nowhere.

[nycxenia]

First of all, based on your age I would guess that you may not have a great deal of experiences first hand. It's my guess,(as well as anyone else's)that most of what you believe about "schismatic jurisdictions" is based (more than likely) not on your own reading the history of each actual synod and or how and why they came about. Neither is it based on your own experience in different synods, but rather on a skewed perspective, which was related to you by another. Live and learn.

[bezmolvie]

Wow you sure know a lot about me from my age. I've lived enough to see, which Church is the true Church from it's fruits and basic study. According to Holy Fathers, those who schism, lose grace by living the True Church. I've been studying religion since grade 5, so maybe you need to judge people less, based on their age. Even though there is such thing as respecting those who are older, Orthodox don't have the same extremes as the papists do...you seem to be falling into that extreme.

[nycxenia]

I assume by "basic study" you do not mean reading the history of what ever synod you choose to declare "schismatic"? In actuality those who depart from the TRUTH are the ones that break off from the Church. The recognized churches which present innovations and or ecumenism as a part of traditional Orthodoxy are by no means the possessors of what has been handed down to us. Be more aware of who you declare to be schismatic, perhaps take a moment to read up on a synod before declaring anything.

[bezmolvie]

You never learn, do you? I told you previously that you need to stop making assumptions. If you talk about innovations, then how come you are not an old ritualist? If you study innovations more precisely then big innovations started in the 15th century after the Florentine union. Minor innovations took place probably from the 1st century. The issues of Calendar were discussed since the first centuries. I'm sure you are aware that Asia Minor had a different calendar than the rest of the church

[nycxenia]

You asked, "If you talk about innovations, then how come you are not an old ritualist?" Because as obvious by the video above we are practicing a (pre-schism)WESTERN Orthodoxy. The title of this video should have "clued" you in.

[bezmolvie]

Yes, but what I am asking is, how does the calendar issue weights over the issues of rituals. Plus, unfortunately modern Western Rite has lost a lot of the things from the pre-schism West. For instance, most don't make the sign of the cross correctly.

[nycxenia]

1. Your first question is unclear.

2. You are correct in saying that the *modern* "Western Rite" has lost a lot. Do you know why? Because many "Western Orthodox" ignore the ancient Orthodox Liturgies of the West and prefer to use a liturgical innovation based on Anglican prayers, instead of the actual pre-schism Orthodox Western Rite(s).

[bezmolvie]

I asked so why is the issue of changing rituals is less significant compared to the issues of the calendar. Actually there were anathemas against certain rituals, while only putting movable feasts on the New Calendar was anathematized. And as I mentioned before, St. Ireneus clearly wrote against schisming because of this issue, which he expressed in his letter to the Roman Church, which wanted to anathematize the whole Asia Minor.

[nycxenia]

...Russian Church Outside of Russia committed itself from the very beginning of Sergianism in 1927 to a firm anti-Sergianist position, and on numerous occasions it has expressed its solidarity with the True Orthodox Church in Russia, while refusing all communion with the Moscow Patriarchate...In Greece the movement of protest, by a similar Orthodox instinct, likewise took the name of "True Orthodox Christians." From the beginning in 1924 (when the calendar reform was introduced)...

[bezmolvie]

You didn't answer the question. But yeah, it's interesting, too bad there are no canons or anathemas from ecumenical councils against sergianism or any signs of it existing now. It is also interesting that St. Theodore the Studite and St. Maximus the Confessor managed not to create their own synods while rebelling against heresies. It's also interesting how we have such saints as St. Joseph the Hesychast and you...well...have no one. People who schism over such stupidity truly don't know history

[nycxenia]

I think you missed the point.THis is excerpt #2, from *The Royal Path, True Orthodoxy in an Age of Apostasy*, by Fr. Seraphim Rose."In the Greek Church the situation has been similar: the renovationist "Pan-Orthodox Council" of 1923, with its Protestant reforms inspired by Patriarch Meletios Metaxakis of sorry memory, proved to be too radical for the Orthodox world to accept, and the renovationists had to be satisfied with imposing a calendar reform on several of the non-Slavic Churches."

[nycxenia]

"...the True Orthodox Christians of Greece stand for a staunch traditionalism in Orthodox life and thought in general, viewing the calendar question merely as a first stage and a touchstone of modernism and reformism." Is your point is that there should not have been a split? I agree, then the new calendarists should not have taken it upon themselves to cause this split and break away from Orthodox traditions.

[bezmolvie]

You need to really study history, if you think this is the first time when issues like this arose. You need to understand that the old-calendarist schism is uncanonical in nature. I strongly support the old calendar, just as I myself prefer the old rituals, which we abandoned much like the calendar. But even St. Theodore the Studite did not split. Church does not become heretical with heretics in it or even heretical leaders, Church IS the PEOPLE who keep the true faith.

[bezmolvie]

Second of all, you should further ahead read what fr. Seraphim Rose wrote about the Old Calendarists. He gave a very clear criticism of the Old Calendarist movement. The schism would have been canonical if: there would be an anathema against the whole new calendar, but there is only an anathema against the movable feasts, which the new calendarists left untouched. If you talk about it as a first step to modernism, well I can show you thousands of innovations from 15 century or earlier.

[joesuaiden]

An "Old Ritualist New Calendarist". Your ancestors would turn in their graves.

[bezmolvie]

Also it is important to note that the calendar issue is a canonical issue, not an dogmatic issue. If you would bother reading the Ecumenical councils, you would realize how many and for how long we have been breaking hundreds of canons. Look at 42nd canon of the 6th Ecumenical council:

[bezmolvie]

"On the matter of those desert-dwellers that walk around the city among the lay men and women in black clothes and with long hair, and defame their vows, we conclude: if they wish to cut their hair in the guise of other monastics, they can be sent to a monastery and be numbered among the brethren. If they do not wish to do so, then they must be entirely banished from the cities to live in the deserts, by which they received their titles" But for some reason people pick and choose...

[VisigothSpain]

@nycxenia , The Hispanic Mozarabic ritual It's not Orthodox, but Roman Catholic. It's the old liturgy of the Visigoth Christians. Many mozarabic songs were probably written by St. Isidore of Seville. Those Christians who lived isolated in lands ruled by the moors after the Islamic invasion of Spain preserved the old liturgy, that has pervived to our days; It's what we call in Spain "La liturgia de Rito Mozárabe". In the Church of San Ildefonso, in Jaén, I went to a Mozarabic mass. Blesings.

[joesuaiden]

@VisigothSpain This is once again, incorrect. Rome suppressed the rite in 1080 except in six chapels. I find it ironic that those people who refer to the rite proudly as Roman Catholic are too dense to realize that Rome did everything it could to destroy it.

[joesuaiden]

So I assume you think that the Antiochian Patriarchate has been invalid since 1724, when it had to be recreated against the schism of the Melkites? And have you forgotten St John of Shanghai, who restored Western usages in France? Or New Martyr Gorazd, who restored Western usages in Czech? Or St Joseph of Petrograd and the new martyrs whom your "Patriarch" don't commemorate? Enough with you!

[bezmolvie]

Lol. Interesting, if you'd follow the news, perhaps you'd know that St. John of Shanghai was put in the official lists of saints. Saints don't need canonization. Saints like St. Nicholas of Myra were never canonized.

[joesuaiden]

Now that IS stupid. St John was canonized by the Church Abroad in 1994. Who cares what your pseudo-Patriarchate does? My name saint, Joseph of Petrograd, was NOT, and he will likely only put in when you glorify "St Sergius, patron of the Soviet regime" at the same time.

[joesuaiden]

And one more thing... you said "we have saints... you have nothing".

Ready to take that back that ridiculous statement yet? Or is this just my "not knowing ecclesiology"? (at least I can *spell* "ecclesiology".

[bezmolvie]

I am sorry for not able to spell things correctly, I mostly read things in Russian, so I do not how to spell certain words in English. Well I'll be glad to know about saints percicely under the Synod of Milan. Holiest people of our time left and criticized the Old Calendarist movement. I don't want to seem protecting New calendar as a whole. I'm not. I'm only saying one must fight from within like St. Maximus the Confessor or St. Theodore the Studite.

[joesuaiden]

"Holiest people of our time left and criticized the Old Calendarist movement." -- not all.

"I'm only saying one must fight from within like St. Maximus the Confessor or St. Theodore the Studite."-- Or Bishop Diomid of Chukotka?

[bezmolvie]

Yes, but unfortunately he's now defrocked unjustly. But so were many other confessors of the ancient Church. I am also very said our archbishop was silent on the issue and did not vote for either side, when they were deciding.

[joesuaiden]

And many have fought unjust depositions because the canons give them the right to.

I am sad your archbishop was, too, as everyone figured he would defend Diomid; after all, he had nothing to lose. But he *did* sign the statement of deposition, which is flatly dishonest. He publicly said nothing-- but privately condemned that poor man.

[bezmolvie]

His personal sins are his personal sins

[joesuaiden]

But his public signatures are the mark of his teaching.

[bezmolvie]

Also I am sorry, if I have offended you. After all it is Sts. Peter and Paul fast. My view on many issues can be called Cyprianite (Synod of Resistance). The only thing I am against is separating and creating new Synods, which did not occur in Church history even with the spread of Arianism and Monophesyte heresies within the Church. Being "communion" is understood very jurisdictionally these days, contrary to the views of the ancient Church. This is what I meant by understand the ecclesiology.

[joesuaiden]

"Also I am sorry, if I have offended you. After all it is Sts. Peter and Paul fast. " -- Amen! We agree on something!

"The only thing I am against is separating and creating new Synods, which did not occur in Church history even with the spread of Arianism and Monophesyte heresies within the Church."-- we are not creating a new Synod, but have joined an old one; restored after 1000 years.

[bezmolvie]

This is what ROoC church is saying and hundreds of other jurisdiction. However, true Church does not need to restore itself because Church is not a jurisdiction.

[bezmolvie]

St. Isaac the Syrian and the patriarch he was under while he was a bishop were both part of the Church that was Nestorian, after the heresy was condemned. The Church is not the jurisdiction. As saints like St. Nicon of Black Mountain stated, Church is the people, who live piously and believe in true dogmas. That is why people like St. Justin Popovich fought from within. I do not support the Old Calendarist movement, I understand it. So please forgive me for harsh statements. I have no love.

[joesuaiden]

St Justin Popovich broke off from communion with the Patriarch at his death. The Orthodox have every right to secede when the Bishops are preaching heresy and have-- if not, we'd all be Roman Catholics after Florence.

[bezmolvie]

Not quite about St. Justin... But thousands of others did not leave during the council of Florence. Monk Matthew Blastares is a good example.

[joesuaiden]

Did St Mark of Ephesus leave? And the testament of St Justin is very clear.

[bezmolvie]

Not that I'm aware of. Well he left, but St. Joseph the Hesychast did not. And many other great elders. I understand people leaving but I just wish they would not. Not leaving is a far harder path. If everyone would be confessors like in the ancient Church. We would not be in this position. But people are no longer ready for martyrdom. I'm certainly not, I have weak faith.

[joesuaiden]

Vitaly, the vast majority of the New Hieromartyrs of Russia broke communion with Sergius. And they died. Sergius fell. And he lived. Not leaving is only a harder path when not leaving means you are doing God's will.

[bezmolvie]

Those who didn't, are still martyrs. If St. Maximus didn't leave, if St. Theodore the Studite didn't leave, if St. Mark of Ephesus did not leave, if new holy elders did not leave, then how can I leave? For now the Church officially does not teach any heresy, especially one condemned by a council (as a heresy). For now, it is simply a disregard for canons and Tradtion, which are not good enough reasons, if saints above did not leave when actual heresies worse than ecumenism infected our Church.

[joesuaiden]

St Maximus broke communion with *everyone*. St Mark of Ephesus broke communion with *everyone*.

And canon XV of the 1st-2nd Synod specifically allows one to break communion *BEFORE* Synodical condemnation. That *is* the Tradition of the Church. You have forgotten so quickly that the ROCOR was OUT of communion with Moscow for the heresies of ecumenism and Sergianism until a couple of years ago. We have not. That is the only difference.

[bezmolvie]

But notice how they broke communion. This is exactly what I am talking about. And what Cyprianites talk about to some extend. Both did not create a new jurisdiction. They simply did not take communion or pray with those in heresies. The canons you mentioned (if you meant Ecumenical ones) don't talk about heresies or related issues. At least Zonaras and Balsamon don't think so. And there is nothing in the canon itself that suggests that.

[joesuaiden]

Let me be frank: the main reason many people like the Cyprianites is because they don't say anyone is outside the Church. This itself is against the teaching of the Fathers. A number of new calendarists have noted the inconsistency of the Cyprianite position: there are no "sick" and "healthy" churches. There are Orthodox hierarchies and not Orthodox hierarchies.

[bezmolvie]

I don't share their ecclesiology fully. I was only talking about the general idea of "walling of". However, I do think that heretics are outside of Church, even if they are officially in communion. The same way St. Isaac and Catholicos George were part of the Nestorian church but were Orthodox in their dogmatic stands. St. Isaac stayed in a Nestorian desert but he was known to commune from those in the Skete desert.

[bezmolvie]

ROCOR had a pretty weird situation. It was practically in communion (in the ancient sense) with Jerusalem and Serbia. In any case I do not really understand why people call Sergianism a heresy. What was happening in MP is simply selling out to secular authority. That happened throughout the Church history so many times.

[joesuaiden]

I will have to message you with the link on sergianism.

[joesuaiden]

The sign of the cross being done correctly was advocated by Overbeck and all True Orthodox Westerners since do the sign of the cross correctly. The "correct" form of the sign of the cross is actually Orthodox *Western*, which as an Old ritualist you should know. However, *you* are in communion with those who do it incorrectly, not us.

[bezmolvie]

this was one of the stupidest comments I have ever witnessed, so I'm not even going to reply to this one.

[bezmolvie]

I'm also sure you are well aware of letters from St. Ireneus of Lyons to pope Victor on this issue. Furthermore, what recent saints do you have? Where are your pillars of faith and vessels of the Holy Spirit. I can surely provide you with ours. And I will repeat this one las time, stop making assumptions about me based on my age. You can be sure I am one of the worst sinners you will ever talk to, but I am not an idiot by God's grace.

[nycxenia]

No body said you were an "idiot", I am saying that you are equally guilty of the "presumptions" you accuse me of. Not based on age, but rather on your preconceived notion of who is schismatic and or an actual member of the Church of Christ.

[bezmolvie]

It is not preconceived. I am well aware of your synod. i am even more aware of one of the people, who helped to established it - defrocked deacon Lazarus. I am an old ritualist (within ROCOR), I am more aware of schismatics than you think.

[joesuaiden]

You are in communion with "defrocked deacon Lazarus" at this point-- so you should refer to him properly as "Archbishop Lazar" of the OCA, since he is now one of your "Fathers in Christ".

[bezmolvie]

Study Church history and ecclessiology then talk about what I should or shouldn't do.

[joesuaiden]

Thank you for sharing.

[joesuaiden]

Apparently you have no concept of history; the first Ecumenical Council resolved the very question of the calculation of Pascha two hundred years after St Victor's transgression and has been used as the standard among all Orthodox consistently for calculating the calendar since.

[bezmolvie]

Apparently you haven't read the letter of St. Ireneus. If you would, you would know what I'm talking about, which you don't.

[joesuaiden]

I've not only read it, I've cited it. No one has "read it", because it's preserved in a copy by Eusebius. That said, it still has nothing to do with the fact that the Council of Nicea settled the question permanently.

[thurii]

Porque se ha decidido que las rúbricas en el Misal sean las mínimas indispensables siguiendo la tradición de los libros litúrgicos hispanos antiguos que se caracterizan por ello. No es ningún problema, la Iglesia permite celebrar hacia Oriente. La continuidad del rito la dieron los mozárabes y no se puede ignorar que no hubo ningún cisma en ellos. Si se ignora se ignoran 1000 años del rito. El rito se llama mozárabe precisamente porque ellos lo conservaron, aunque fuera anterior.

[thurii]

El Missale Hispano-Mozarabicum es la última edición del Misal Mozárabe. Que sea más reciente no significa que no sea más fiel al antiguo rito. Más bien al contrario. El Missale Mixtum tenía muchos elementos tomados de un misal romano de Toledo. Se han realizado muchos estudios. Se han analizado manuscritos desconocidos por Ortiz y Ferotin. El nuevo misal incluye la "Tradición A" prácticamente ignorada por el Missale Mixtum. El calendario se ha depurado, etc. Es más reciente pero más fiel.

[joesuaiden]

Pero tiene sus problemas tambien. Mira a la Misa Romana nueva. ¿Porque el misal nuevo no nota que posición debe tener el celebrante durante la misa?

[josephsuaiden]

Primeramente, en el rito Hispano, por siglos fuera una controversia sobre usar uno o tres inmersiones. El "Liber Ordinum" no específica si usa uno o tres, pues usamos tres.

Nosotros no interpolamos un epiklesis de un rito Oriental, porque no es necesario; ni tampoco es necesario cuando usa el rito Romano precismatico. El metodo de los Antioquenes (añadir palabras del rito Bizantino para usar ritos nuevos del occidente) es un error.

[josephsuaiden]

No somos en comunión con ninguno-- somos parte del Sínodo Autonomo de Europa y los Americas que fue formado y bendecido por la Iglesia vetero-calendarista de Grecia; a veces llamado el "Sínodo de Milan" porque allí esta nuestro primado. Si mira al "info" hay enlaces con más información.

[josephsuaiden]

I would assume it's allowed by Orthodoxy in emergencies, but we don't allow that.

[antifazdeterciopelo]

Lo que no entiendo es por qué utilizan este rito en Nueva York cuando se trata de un rito español que nunca se implantó en América y por tanto carece de cualquier vínculo con la historia de ese continente, salvo pequeños detalles anecdóticos.

[nycxenia]

We use "Rite" because it is our "right" to.

[antifazdeterciopelo]

Bueno, eso y no decir nada es lo mismo. Nadie hablaba de derechos sino de razones. En fin, no merece la pena seguir con esto. Gracias por su paciencia.

[josephsuaiden]

Hay mas historia con este continente que vd cree. Es nuestro rito de toda manera; alguien nos enseñó, y nostoros lo guardamos, con el permiso de nuestro Obispo.

[antifazdeterciopelo]

En América poca cosa. Algunas influencias en el Manual Toledano, el paso del arzobispo Lorenzana por México y poco más. Y es lógico porque el rito que allí se llevó fue el romano y no éste que ya estaba abolido (salvo en algunos lugares de España) hacia siglos. En fin, no deseo polémicas. Gracias por su paciencia. Lumen cum pace.

[josephsuaiden]

Deo gratia. Recuerde, que para los Ortodoxos, es parte de nuestra fé a luchar para la tradición. Somos hispanos, y los Santos Padres Hispanos son como nuestros "acercados de Apostolos", a nostotros no importa que decidió Roma en el tiempo de la cisma. Somos libre, con Papa o sin Papa, a preservar la santa Fe Ortodoxa. Si quiere, se puede preguntar a nuestro Obispo en España sobre estas cosas tambien.

[antifazdeterciopelo]

Entonces supongo que aceptarán el "Filioque" tal y como enseñan infinidad de Concilios hispanos y S. Isidoro y S. Ildefonso. No sé por qué insiste en relacionar el cisma con el rito hispano. La comunidad mozárabe no tuvo ningún cisma. No ha habido una comunidad mozárabe "ortodoxa". No existe ninguna tradición al respecto. Otra cosa es que ustedes 1000 años después se fijen en un momento de la historia para inspirarse litúrgicamente, pero eso no se puede llamar tradición.

[josephsuaiden]

1. Considere, posiblemente que son mas junto que vd. cree. 2. Antes de la cisma, no fue ningun "comunidad mozárabe". El rito fue el rito del pais. 3. Tradición es que usó la una Santa y sigue unsando.

[johnross12]

Vagantes

[josephsuaiden]

Back to you, my ecumenical friend, and from whence, jurisdictionally, do you hurl your pronouncement?

[nycxenia]

Ah....Whatever, your probably an Antiochian...

[nycxt]

Lo cuál es más increíble, es que usted no puede ver la verdad de donde está la iglesia de Cristo

[joesuaiden]

Bueno, para los Antioquenes, nuestras Iglesias vetero-calendaristas no pueden mostrar "amor" porque nosotros decimos la verdad. Si Vd. no le gusta, es porque no tenemos "amor". Mi esposa ama la santa Iglesia, pero no herejia. Que tenga buena noche.

[joesuaiden]

Disculpe, a veces me olvido que tengo esa tecla. El Amor de Dios es para todos, como dice, pero herejes, cismaticos y enemigos de la fe le rechazan.

[RdrTim]

I had no idea there was a Hispanic Orthodox church, even a Western Rite one. What jurisdiction are you under?

[nycxenia]

see 'about'

[thurii]

En el rito mozárabe se hace una sola inmersión (o infusión o derramamiento de agua sobre la cabeza) y no tres como se ve en el video, que en este punto no es fiel al auténtico rito hispano-mozárabe del bautismo.

[josephsuaiden]

En el rito ordinario del "Liber Ordinum" que usemos aqui en este caso, no indice ni a uno ni a tres. Según IV Concilio de Toledo, es mas importante, en que dijo San Gregorio Magno a San Leandro sobre esta pregunta, la mas importante es guardar la unidad de la fe- los dos son validos. Pero la mayoria de las Iglesias Ortodoxas (somos Ortodoxos Occidentales) hacen tres inmersiónes. Pues, usamos la forma de la Iglesia universal en nuestros dias, porque no hay Arrianos causando confusión.

[thurii]

Los mozárabes se bautizan con simple inmersión y así lo recoge la rúbrica del Missale Hispano-Mozarabicum en la liturgia bautismal de la Vigilia Pascual: "baptizat eum simplici immersione vel, si casus fit, unica super caput aquæ infusione". Los Liber Ordinum no suelen tener muchas rúbricas. No es raro que no hablen de este asunto. El Conc. IV admite ambas formas pero manda que se practique la simple (canon 6). Me parece laudable, no obstante, el interés de otras Iglesias por el rito.

[josephsuaiden]

¿Cuando compilaron este Missale? Para nosotros, no es solamente un interés; Es el unico rito que usamos cada domingo. Reconocimos las circunstancias de la Iglesia Hispana en el s. IX, actuamos en una forma aceptable a la Iglesia Hispana antigua--antes de la cisma-- y nuestra Iglesia hoy. "Liber Ordinum", por el parte del bautismo, es suficiente completo para hacerlo sin problema. Mi Obispo sintió comodo--el esta acostumbrado a leer los textos en Latín. Gracias tambien- Nos gustan los videos.