And quite why Mr Whitta thinks that he doesn't feel safe if that is part of how soldiers and police officers are trained I don't know. Instead of acting like an authority on the psychology of how these things act upon the mind, he should ask Colonel Grossman those questions and listen and learn from the answer. simulations are used precisely because they are so effective.
Mr Whitta says that there is a world of difference between the simulations the military use, and those available to the public in video games..........well, if anything, some of the video games available to the public are superior simulations, and the people they are available to are not subject to medical examination prior to being allowed access to them as military recruits would be. His argument is not much superior to, "I smoke and dont have cancer, therefore smoking doesnt cause cancer".
I had a lot of respect for Lt. Col. Grossman until I watched this video, now the only thing I can think about is how ill-informed and downright idiotic he is on the subject.
Really? Playing video games is going to make you an expert marksman? Well if that is the case why are police hit ratios still roughly the same? answer, because to become good at something you actually have to,. You know, do it.
The only guy living in a fantasy world on the subject is Colonel Grossman
the reason he was so accurate was because it was a freaking .22. the gun has no recoil and it makes about as much noise as a firecracker. if he would've had a 9mm or .45 he wouldn't have been near that accurate with it
And i can verify the USMC has used DOOM as a training tool back in the day. DOOM was modded to resemble a various combat scenarios and to work as a team, not solo.
@oldschoolpaulie , No Response? Oh, your shift is over and you can get up from a hard days work behind the police computer and go home now. To Serve and Protect! Way to go junior, all that taxpayer money hard at work, Must Be Nice!
That's because they cut him off just as he was getting started. In EVERY SINGLE juvenile school shooting case, the juvenile suspects had ONE thing in common: they dropped out of reality and immersed themselves in violent, visual imagery (Video games, shows, and films) The subconscious mind knows not the difference between fantasy and reality.
Sorry Col.Grossman, I have trained and retrained quite a few soldiers on the "Nintendo" Rifle Range Trainer, and when they get to the live range to qualify many of them "Bolo" and FAIL miserably. I consistently score in the 31 to 33 (75- 80% Sharpshooter) out of 40 hit bracket, so it isn't because of my skills as a trainer.
While video games might be a useful tool, Nothing beats live training.
@SgtRum It's about the repetetive conditioning to kill (And even being rewarded for doing so) and largely relates to point firing in a lot of cases, which is what the child did in the instance Grossman is referring to... but mostly its about conditioning these kids not to hesitate to kill and enjoy it.
@oldschoolpaulie , Rewards??? What F'ing Rewards? 20 more points on an electronic scoreboard? We are human beings not monkeys. It is the home and school life of the kids that has the greatest impact on them, not a freaking video game that they play maybe 3% of their teenage life.
@SgtRum Again, In EVERY SINGLE juvenile school shooting case, the juvenile suspects had ONE thing in common: they dropped out of reality and immersed themselves in violent, visual imagery (Video games, shows, and films) The subconscious mind knows not the difference between fantasy and reality. We're not talking about the average casual gamer who becomes a school shooter, but individuals who become obsessed with the gaming and besting their scores and those of others.
@SgtRum Grossman has made it a study of years and years. He has worked with Phil Chalmers, who wrote Inside the Mind of a Teen Killer, Published by Thomas Nelson Inc., 2009. Grossman wrote the forward. Chalmers actually did extensive interviews of the killers in prison... so the short answer is that THEY ASKED THEM.
@SgtRum Brain scans of gamers and non gamer juveniles even reveal different chemistry... because the stimulus causes common "flight or fight" hormones to be dumped into the blood stream, which take 48 hours to be purged from the system. Adults can handle it... it doesn't affect them in the same way.
@oldschoolpaulie , can you provide us with the link to the "Brain Scan" Studies. Because just going to school every day can cause many fight or flight stimuli at any moment these days.
@SgtRum go to killology daught com (links can't be posted here) and click "search killology" and type "brain scans", the first link that comes up, "on combat, video game violence", click, then scroll down to the bottom.
@oldschoolpaulie When it comes to video games and human experience yes. It's hard to believe you're replying to an old comment I made about a topic that is nearly extinct today.
@wiitarded23 Not really. He has no idea what the Army simulator is like, other than what Grossman told him, so he's working without tools in trying to compare the two, and he definitely knows nothing about combat to make a comparison. As for the studies linking the behavioral aspects of the gaming (In juveniles- it doesn't apply to adults, they can handle it) considering Grossman is both a combat vet AND a psychiatrist from West Point, fat boy is out of his league in this discussion.
@oldschoolpaulie , I have known some former Army Rangers, a few were actually my friends. Many of the ones I know would sieze any opportunity to make a buck like Mr Grossman has tried to do in this example. Here is some study material for you: 3w . theppsc . org / Grossman / Main-R . htm
@oldschoolpaulie , In case you have a hard time figuring it out, just put 3 w's in front and take the spaces out { 3W . THEPPSC . ORG / GROSSMAN / MAIN-R . HTM } . It will take you to "The Police Policy Studies Council" Who I think will be the subject matter experts on crime, rather than some retired Army Ranger out to make a buck on his washed up career.
@SgtRum Oh, well then you need to give me far more credibility since I'm in my 22nd year of service in law enforcement, and as a rangemaster and firearms instructor. Next?
@SgtRum Was I not clear? Yes. Besides, we're talking the opinion of ONE man. I just sat in an auditorium of about 700 officers last Friday at one of Grossman's seminars (Of which I've attended a few, besides reading his work) and I can guarantee you that NONE of the talk amongst the officers was about Grossman's lack of credibility.
@SgtRum Not really. First, the theory isn't quite as simple as "Video games cause violent crime." Secondly, there are scores of experts in the field who hold the same views. Grossman's views aren't "merely one man's opinion," but based upon extensive recent major scientific studies and empirical research.
@oldschoolpaulie , The Video Game Voter's . org website is an organization of hundreds of thousands if not millions of video gamers ranging from the teenage to people in their 80's, and none of them have gone crazy and shot up the schools in their areas. So your math just doesn't add up! Mr Grossman is just WRONG on this issue.
@SgtRum You have no idea what you're talking about. At this point, you just don't want to be wrong. Read the book, "Stop teaching our kids to kill" by Grossman and DeGaetano. There's no way I can begin to cover it all with these BS posts on youtube. Oh, and continue to ignore the fact that these video games were the common thread with EVERY one of the shooters. I realize, as a layman, it doesn't fit into your world view.
@oldschoolpaulie , WOW, so the fact that hundreds of thousands, even millions of people have used video games with no ill effects means nothing to your Police Trained mind? And I'm the one who just wants to be right? Did it ever cross your mind that the evil video games were just a convenient excuse for a criminal? Perhaps to get a lighter sentence. I mean Really! You have dealt with lawyer's before right?
@SgtRum So, you've done extensive studies of empirical evidence compiled of all of them. reviewed by peers, to determine that NONE of them have suffered any "ill effects?" And what are your qualifications again? You think Grossman is making excuses for criminals? You OBVIOUSLY haven't heard him talk about these maggots. And BTW, there's no apostrophe in "lawyers."
@SgtRum Make up your mind. You earlier stated, "The Police Policy Studies Council" Who I think will be the subject matter experts on crime, rather than some retired Army Ranger..." No, Grossman stands on his qualifications, and I'll take those over the "sarge's." His observations and positions dovetail perfectly with my 2 decades + experience in LE,
@oldschoolpaulie , Mr. Grossman is your idol, that explains your embrace of him and his flawed premise. I lay blame for this phenomena on the Liberal social engineering policies, instead of some magical video game effect that has teens going nuts like Curly when he hears Pop Goes The Weasel. Parents can no longer discipline their children for fear of Childrens Services getting involved. There is no real consequences for teens when they do wrong these days. So go on Idolizing Mr Grossboy.
@SgtRum Oh, that's part and parcel of it. Throw in a certain personality, parents who aren't paying any damned attention, and the psychological effects on children who immerse themselves in violent visual imagery, (Desensitization to violence and killing) and you have a recipe for an individual out of every thousand or so who might become a big baby with a gun.
@SgtRum Did you know that in WWII, the average soldier would actively try to shoot the enemy only 15-20% of the time? They were training by shooting at bullseyes, and other shapes. By the time Korea came around, they'd learned to use the visual imagery of human silhouettes... this increased the number to 55%. The target images became more and more lifelike, and today, those numbers are much higher. (95% in Vietnam)
@oldschoolpaulie , No need to parrot quotes from the video. I watched the whole video and I'm still not convinced of what Mr. Grossman has to say on this subject.
@SgtRum As to your jab that Grossman is my idol, that's largely an emotional response on your part. I used to hold the same views that you do about the effects of media on violent tendencies. Grossman presents the data, studies and information in a way that makes perfect sense. I don't simply accept what I'm told; explain it to me, make your case, and if it seems logical and makes sense to me, you can change my view.
@SgtRum Actually, its so obvious you're so enamored with your visual/video fantasy world that you can't bring yourself to admit that it's not good for young, developing minds.
@oldschoolpaulie ,Yes, I am quite fond of computer games, but I do not live in a fantasy world such as yours where you and your DoGooder ilk are enamoured with the idea that banning something out of existence will stop violent crimes. And you never heard me say that it was good for young developing minds.
@SgtRum Apparently, you DO live in a fantasy world (Mr. "I've been playing video games since Commodore 64) because no one here has called for the banning of anything. Nor has anyone claimed that doing so "will stop violent crimes." You've definitely ridiculed the idea that it's not good for young people.
@oldschoolpaulie , Apparently you are living in a fantsy world (Mr. I'm going to save the world DoGooder Cop), since the supreme court has already ruled in favor of Video games as a freedom of speech issue. Yet you and your DoGooder ilk still attempt to stifle Freedom Of Speech, and deprive your fellow Americans of their freedoms. "To Serve And Protect" Way To Go Junior!
@SgtRum Junior? What makes you assume that you're older than I? This personal attack (Which has nothing to do with your argument) is as ridiculous as your "spending the shift online" nonsense. How am I attempting "to stifle freedom of speech and deprive your fellow Americans of their freedoms? HOW? Go ahead, I'll wait. Resorting to pretending that I advocate prohibition as you do with Grossman makes it pretty obvious you have no argument.
@oldschoolpaulie , Oh don't get all but hurt now, especially since you are ok with insinuating that I have a Video Game addiction, and am detached from reality. If you are helping to foster a flawed hypothesis that will enable the DoGooders to deprive others of their rights, then you may as well be pulling the trigger, so to speak, on those rights.
@SgtRum Not sure where you conjured up any idea that I was "hurt." You don't even have any idea what the research consists of, let alone whether or not it's "flawed." You just don't LIKE the conclusion.
"I have played video games since the Commodore64 (None of which made me crazy or want to kill anyone) and I build my own gaming computers." Nah, no addiction there. How silly of me. What was I thinking?
@oldschoolpaulie , You do feel hurt at some level because you continue to "Argue" your point with me when there are millions of Gamers who have NONE of the effects that you and your idol claim they should have. Thats why you have to insinuate that there is something wrong with me as a person, by claiming that I am addicted to games and therefore can't be objective about the topic..
@SgtRum Then by your own reasoning, you "feel hurt at some level because you continue to argue your point with me." Let's see your educated scientific studies. (Not your blanket assumptions) I implied you are not objective, because you make a judgement without even considering Grossman's studies or even examining them or his arguments. You've made a judgement based upon a soundbite and your penchant for video games. That is NOT objective.
@oldschoolpaulie , And if you are not trying to promote Legislation against V V Games, then where is your argument going? Is it just another Public Service Message???
@SgtRum My argument is very simple: Grossman is right about what he's saying. That was the debate he and Whitta were engaging in that started the debate here. Tricky?
@SgtRum You still have yet to answer my question as to what you're doing these days "just for a buck," so I'll assume it's definitely not rocket science.
@oldschoolpaulie , I just manufacture jet engine components for the aerospace industry and military services. I honorably served 23 + a 2 year homeland defence activation with the Army National Guard before retiring. I studied the Martial Arts since the age of 9 earning a 5th degree black belt. I have played video games since the Commodore64 (None of which made me crazy or want to kill anyone) and I build my own gaming computers. Not as illustrious a career as your idol, but I'm ok with it.
@SgtRum So, you manufacture jet engine components, "just for a buck?" Or is that for the altruistic benefit of mankind? (For free) Try to focus. Adults can handle the imagery. It desensitizes children to violence and killing. It induces poor behavior and social interaction in most. (Children) Under the right circumstances in SOME individuals, this can lead to actual violence.
@oldschoolpaulie , I work for a living, not just to make a buck like Mr. Grossman. BTW I'm not against Mr. Grossman's right to make a buck on his lectures, I'm just saying that he is wrong on this issue. Prohibition seldom works even in totalitarian environs.
@SgtRum Who's calling for prohibition? In both seminars I sat in, Grossman NEVER called for prohibition. A little more parental involvement and supervision, maybe.... you know, sort of in line with your conservative view of where responsibility for juveniles lies.
@oldschoolpaulie , well if you watch the video above you'll hear Mr. Grossman list a bunch of organizations such as the Surgeon General, and the U.N. who are "Looking Into" the problem Violent Video Games. And then you'll hear him state that "We" are going to prove there is a link to violence and violent video games in a court of law. I think that is the precursor to prohibition.
@SgtRum I see. We're now arguing about what he's not arguing, based upon your assumptions. Again, Grossman never calls for any legislation or prohibition in his lectures nor his books. Straw man argument.
@oldschoolpaulie , Mr. Grossman is using Violent Video games as a Strawman for his hypothesis of there being a link to V V games and teen violence. I don't know why he would lower himself to the status of an ambulance chaser by using this argument, unless he is just trying to gain some quick public notoriety and more profit for himself.
@SgtRum You're right, you don't know. Your enthusiasm for the games has prevented you from being objective, especially based only on your own theory and conjecture as a layman and "gamer" and a short video of Grossman. It's far more complex than that. You need to get into the details and studies Grossman presents far deeper than a soundbite or internet shouting contest can allow.
@oldschoolpaulie , Normally I would investigate such matters with extreme prejudice, however in this case it would be a waste of time, since I do not belive the premise is correct. I know Alot of gamers and not a single one has flipped their wig and spazzed out.
@SgtRum Actually, considering that every last one of the school shooters in history had one consistent factor in common: they dropped out of reality and immersed themselves in a world of violent, visual imagery (I.E., VV games) time has proven that the premise has merit. How can you be objective and consider a premise that is wrong? I don't know, explain it to me, since you're holding to an obviously errant premise right now, based on your emotional attachment to video games.
@SgtRum But you've shown me the light. There's no point in debate you any further. I'm convinced. I was wrong. From now on, when I want to understand something about the complex workings of the human mind, I won't waste my time with Westpoint psychiatrists with combat experience, and the AMA, APA, NIMH, National Institute of Mental Health, Attorney General, Surgeon General, and American Academy of Pediatrics.
@SgtRum What would those knuckleheads know about it with their ridiculous scientific, peer reviewed studies and such? No, from now on, when I want an expert opinion, I'll message the lifelong gamer and factory worker with "rum" in his user name. Glad we chatted.
@SgtRum The AMA, APA, NIMH, National Institute of Mental Health, Attorney General, Surgeon General, and American Academy of Pediatrics all agree with Grossman's "strawman." Laymen and gamers dissent because they don't understand the research and don't want to. All they know is that they like their games.
@oldschoolpaulie , These organizations are not neccessarily bastions of conservative thinking, and are known to espouse the banning of personal firearms ownership as well. So Yes Gamers Will Dissent against flawed research.
@SgtRum That its flawed is simply your emotional, uninformed response. There's no examination, no investigation and no objectivity to your 'determination" that Grossman's research is "flawed," just your reflexive knee jerk reaction. You haven't read his books, or articles, I'm willing to bet, or even looked at the studies. You watched a sound bite and decided you didn't "like" his theories, and that was that. Grossman carries concealed. He's not remotely a gun grabber or of the mindset.
@oldschoolpaulie , Reading Mr. Grossman's books is not high on my priority list. Especially when there are MILLIONS of gamers who do not suffer from Mr. Grossman's claimed adverse effects. MILLIONS OF GAMERS!
Article: Digital Sales of PC Games Eclipse Physical Retail in 2010, NPD Claims...
"The NPD Group numbers (via Gamasutra) suggest 11.2 million units have been sold in the United States digitally to 8.2 million units at physical retailers in the period running from January 2010 through June of 2010"
AND: "That's a drop of 14% in total unit sales, and a 21% decline in total revenue"
@SgtRum Sorry. That's the number of games sold. It's not an in-depth study of users by professionals, peer reviewed, and... oh, never mind. I guess it makes sense to a factory worker.
@oldschoolpaulie , OK maybe next time you are at one of Mr.Grossman's seminars you can ask him to study why so few kids are adversly affected by V V Games? That would be a better use of his and my time.
@oldschoolpaulie , So anyone who did even a little Google homework on this issue would see that there were over 10 MILLION PC Games (Units) sold in the first two quarters of 2010. Thats 10 MILLION in just PC Games alone!!! Not including any of the consoles, Just PC Games Alone!!! In 2009, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 sold 4.7 million copies in the month of November alone! (NPD Group). If you factor out the percent of ages that were over the teen age group it would still be in the MILLIONS!!!
@oldschoolpaulie , Yes they sold MILLIONS of games to teens, many of whom are not programmed to kill by just playing the games.
I respect Mr. Grossman's service to our country, but I wish he would just stop lowering himself to the level of an ambulance chaser. He CAN be better than that if he so chooses.
@SgtRum About your emotive language about "ambulance chaser." If you knew more than what you've gleaned from a sound bite, you'd understand that he spends the majority of his time training police and military when he could be quietly, comfortably retired. Subtract operating costs, like airfare, hotel, and meals to be traveling 6 days/week, and I'm guessing it's worth his while, but not lucrative. Besides, your logic assumes that he couldn't possibly be doing this out of principle.
@SgtRum Oh, absolutely, because training is always " hands-on," right? Ranger would never be capable of that) (And we all know a combat No training is every conducted in a classroom setting. In depth study of the science and psychology of killing could never possibly be "training." Glad you set me straight on that one.
@oldschoolpaulie , Oh, What have you learned at his "Training" Seminar besides a load of useless "Facts" that you can throw at people who don't believe Mr.Grossman's hypothesis?
@SgtRum Quite a bit about what makes people "tick" both from the bad guys' side of things, AND our own, and how to prepare for it. You may be enjoying this, but I've got better things to be doing on a Friday night, so I'm out. You like video games, so no amount of reasoning with you is going to budge you in considering there is anything negative about them. THAT much, we've established. 10-98.
@oldschoolpaulie , "no amount of reasoning with you is going to budge you in considering there is anything negative about them"
Not true, Some games are priced way too high. Others are of shoddy quality and should have been worked on a little longer before being released. And sometimes they are just too time consuming.
@oldschoolpaulie , and you have MAYBE a dozen cases where teens were induced to violence by V V Games? Wrongful shooting deaths by the POLICE were more than your lousy 12 cases!
@SgtRum As usual, you haven't done your homework. The research points to an increase in aggressive behavior, which sometimes leads to school shootings. In 1998 alone, according to the US Secret Service, there were 35 murders, and almost a quarter-of-a-million American children "seriously injured" by school violence.
@SgtRum In July, 2000, a joint statement was made to the US Congress by the AMA, the APA, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. What they said was: "Well over 1,000 studies point overwhelmingly to a causal connection between media violence and aggressive behavior in some children."
@SgtRum That's all of our doctors, psychologists, pediatricians and child
psychiatrists telling the US Congress that media violence causes violence in children. Over a 1,000 studies have demonstrated that if you put media violence in a child's life, you will get an increase in violent behavior. So far, though, no one has demonstrated the reverse: If we take media violence out of a child's life, will violent behavior go down?
@SgtRum Really? Not long ago, I took a call where a 9 yoa walked into his living room where all of his friends were sitting, racked a round into a 9mm Beretta, and told them all to "STFU." We go out on children out and about at all hours of the morning, and the first gun I found on anyone, some 22 years ago, was on a 14yoa. Don't tell me what children do and don't do. You're only good at ONE thing: lots of assumptions.
@SgtRum No, we all know, according to you, that never happens, based on your years of personal study of VV games. We don't need no stinkin' case studies!
@oldschoolpaulie , Since you like to cite my gaming history in a disparaging way, such as my having played games since the Commodore64, I can spot a bullshit argument from miles away. BTW in YOUR studies have you ever tried playing VV Games???
@SgtRum You like to play video games. Awesome. I couldn't care less. My POINT is that it doesn't qualify you to assess their psychological effects; you don't have THAT sort of training, and besides, you're making a judgement as an ADULT. Grossman CLEARY states that adults can handle it.
@oldschoolpaulie , WOW, I'm not qualified to asses my psychological effects of my own gaming? And you don't think I would have noticed changes in my own behavior? Well even if that were true, My wife, friends, and or family would have, they know me well enough to have noticed. As for being an adult, the same applies to my teenage sons and daughter, as they are gamers as well. My wife however has NO interest in games.
@SgtRum Besides, my arguments have been far more involved and included stats, specific studies, and listing the authorities on the subject, etc., and you know it. You might not agree with my argument, but don't pretend the focus of my articulations has been on your gaming. To answer your question, they never held my attention for very long; my wife loved a particular arcade game w/ pistols and zombies, (Don't remember the name) and I played it w/ her when we were dating,
@SgtRum I was far more into the hot woman who wanted me to play than the game itself. BTW, it was very similar, in many ways to the video/scenario training tool that law enforcement used for quite some time. (FATS) They've evolved at this point, and actual force-on-force training is used quite a bit. (SIMS training) Believe it or not, paint ball is also regarded as a useful training tool. And, believe it or not, this is MY area of expertise. (Combat pistol/rifle, shooting decisions, etc.)
@oldschoolpaulie , Believe it or not I've done a little FATS, SIMS, and live training in the military in addition to my gaming time. So if Grossman's Theory holds true, I should be hitting the bullseye every time and have reflexes faster than RoboCop.
@SgtRum Stanford University has demonstrated exactly that. Less TV equals less violence. Earlier this year Stanford released a landmark study demonstrating a 50% decrease in verbal aggression, and a 40% decrease in physical aggression, just by encouraging kids to turn off their TVs and video games.
@SgtRum The Stanford data was gathered at two similar San Jose elementary schools. Researchers first carefully assessed the baseline level of aggressive behavior in 192 third- and fourth-graders through playground observations and interviews. Then, they introduced a curriculum at one school meant to encourage children to cut back on video games and to watch less TV.
@SgtRum Two-thirds of the pupils agreed to participate in an initial, 10-day effort
to turn off television altogether, which was monitored by slips signed by parents. Over half of them continued to limit their television watching to under seven hours per week during the next 20 weeks.
@SgtRum After 20 weeks the researchers found a 40 percent reduction in physical
aggression, and a 50 percent reduction in the level of verbal aggression in the overall population at the experimental school compared with the one that did not follow the curriculum.
@SgtRum The children who were the most aggressive at the outset of the study had the most to gain, and they showed the greatest benefit. The researchers also noted significant reduction in obesity and overeating problems in the school where the curriculum was introduced. But, nevermind all of that. What kind of studies have you done in your basement?
@oldschoolpaulie , anyone can cook "Studies" to show what they wish them to. EX: Global Warming. Which they have renamed "Climate Change" when they were discovered to be using cooked data.
@oldschoolpaulie , Legislation would gladly be the next logical step of the DoGooder banners on the left, and Mr. Grossman is just another useful idiot to them. It's hard to believe that a man such as Grossman, who served to protect Constitution and the rights that we Americans enjoy would then participate in such a farce that would enable the DoGooders to take those same rights away.
@SgtRum And of course, you can't consider for a moment that its about objectivity, i.e. the truth, regardless about whether it's convenient or not. I can't debate with you when you use imaginary arguments or positions that the subject (Grossman) and I aren't even making. And now you're pretending that I'm "hurt." I thought martial arts were supposed to impart patience and maturity. I feel like I'm arguing with a child.
@SgtRum That will be impossible with someone so invested in his embrace of these video games; you're not open to even consider the evidence, but rather, you lean on your personal anecdotal points to convince yourself as a layman. Your agenda is to defend the games, regardless, because you like them.
@oldschoolpaulie , My "Agenda" is one of common sense. Something your police trained mind cannot grasp. The evidence is available to anyone who will look at it. The use of video games has risen since their inception. That means that exposure of video games to the target group (Teens) has also risen. Yet you have only a handful of crimes purportedly inspired by video game exposure. Based on your idol's premise, the cases of video game induced crime should be at epidemic porportions by now.
@SgtRum Yeah, I've just somehow managed to fumble my way through dozens of armed encounters and rise to the level of watch commander after over two decades on the street because common sense is something my "police trained mind" cannot grasp. You're a genius. Our crime and violence levels ARE at an all time high right now. Go to takethechallenge now . net You'll see that their premise of removing TV and gaming results in drastic changes in violence and better performance.
@SgtRum That's because the murder rate is "artificially" suppressed due to modern medical technology. The violence of the "Old West" is a largely a myth when you compare it to the modern murder rates of, say, D.C. The difference is that back in the day, if the bullet didn't kill you, the infection would. No anesthesia, anesthetic, or antibiotics. Technology saves even 10% more lives now than in the 70s. The docs are keeping the stats down.
@oldschoolpaulie , "Artificially Suppressed" Oh please, now you are parroting the anti-gun lobby diatribe of "Modern Medical Technology". And besides that it was the Violent CRIME RATE which encompasses all violent crimes that was down not just the Murder Rate. Now you sound like a first year rookie.
@SgtRum Yeah, that's right. Medical science and technology hasn't progressed at all since the days of the "Wild West," or even the 70's. The survivability rate hasn't gone up at all. What was I thinking.
@oldschoolpaulie violent video games are not a direct root cause of anything violent, sure they can be used by people to fuel their aggression but so could a lot of other mediums, sometimes it could be things that dont even make sense. i agree kids shouldnt be playing violent games but i think more time needs to be spent on the root of the problem rather than wasting time focusing on indirect ways
@SgtRum studies in over 30 schools produced average decrease in student aggression on the playground of 55 percent. There was a 48 percent decrease in negative classroom behavior. Schools implementing the curriculum during the state assessment increased math and writing achievement at the elementary level. A Youth Correctional Center implemented the program and saw a 43 percent decrease in aggressive incidents. Marijuana, alcohol, and other drug use was reduced by 50%. Common sense says what?
@oldschoolpaulie , So what you are saying is that the Youth Correctional Center served as a surrogate parent and Imposed strict rules regarding the use of TV, and Video Games thereby improving student behavior. See, proper parenting does work.
@SgtRum No shit. That's why, in addition to the normal conservative values and supervision I impose upon my kids, they won't be playing violent video games or watching R rated films. MY responsibility... yes.
@oldschoolpaulie , I am on topic, as this was mentioned in the video above. So are you saying that trying to win a court case to prove that there is a link to Violent Video games and school shootings, thereby setting legal precedence would be absolutely useless to entities trying to impose yet more useless bureaucratic legislation on the public?
@SgtRum The case he testified in was a CIVIL SUIT by Sabrina Steger against manufacturers of games used by the punk in the Paducha massacre by and it was dismissed. Even if she'd won, ever heard of the 1st Amendment? Any such laws would be challenged and overturned; the fact of the matter, is that it's never going to happen. The fact remains that Grossman never calls for "prohibition." The closest he comes is recommending that parents disallow them for their children.
Good job, Gary. You had a great one sided, uninformed argument, ADMITTING that you know nothing about firearms. I also found it pretty amusing how defensive you were getting. Im not gonna say that it's a sign that you know you are wrong, but.....
And quite why Mr Whitta thinks that he doesn't feel safe if that is part of how soldiers and police officers are trained I don't know. Instead of acting like an authority on the psychology of how these things act upon the mind, he should ask Colonel Grossman those questions and listen and learn from the answer. simulations are used precisely because they are so effective.
raccool2 2 weeks ago
Mr Whitta says that there is a world of difference between the simulations the military use, and those available to the public in video games..........well, if anything, some of the video games available to the public are superior simulations, and the people they are available to are not subject to medical examination prior to being allowed access to them as military recruits would be. His argument is not much superior to, "I smoke and dont have cancer, therefore smoking doesnt cause cancer".
raccool2 2 weeks ago
I had a lot of respect for Lt. Col. Grossman until I watched this video, now the only thing I can think about is how ill-informed and downright idiotic he is on the subject.
Really? Playing video games is going to make you an expert marksman? Well if that is the case why are police hit ratios still roughly the same? answer, because to become good at something you actually have to,. You know, do it.
The only guy living in a fantasy world on the subject is Colonel Grossman
bigboss686 1 month ago
And Whitta went on to be the most evil Jedi of all time.
Ashleytb 1 month ago 2
Always be testing.
TheCrazyMuffin 1 month ago 2
the reason he was so accurate was because it was a freaking .22. the gun has no recoil and it makes about as much noise as a firecracker. if he would've had a 9mm or .45 he wouldn't have been near that accurate with it
steven4570 2 months ago
And i can verify the USMC has used DOOM as a training tool back in the day. DOOM was modded to resemble a various combat scenarios and to work as a team, not solo.
Marine2k69 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I was the NCO and FATS/SIMS trainer for my last company. Best training you can get without being there when taken seriously and not a videogame
Marine2k69 2 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , ???
SgtRum 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , No Response? Oh, your shift is over and you can get up from a hard days work behind the police computer and go home now. To Serve and Protect! Way to go junior, all that taxpayer money hard at work, Must Be Nice!
SgtRum 4 months ago
VideoGameVoters . org . Go, Look, Join, to help keep thug cops from stealing your games and rights!
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Yeah, because "cops" are also legislators. Go back to school, "sarge."
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum LOL, I get off at 2200. Nice try, slick.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
That's because they cut him off just as he was getting started. In EVERY SINGLE juvenile school shooting case, the juvenile suspects had ONE thing in common: they dropped out of reality and immersed themselves in violent, visual imagery (Video games, shows, and films) The subconscious mind knows not the difference between fantasy and reality.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
About what?
newt1972 4 months ago
after playing a few levels of doom, I feel like I'm ready for the marines!
ph51 6 months ago
.
.
Sorry Col.Grossman, I have trained and retrained quite a few soldiers on the "Nintendo" Rifle Range Trainer, and when they get to the live range to qualify many of them "Bolo" and FAIL miserably. I consistently score in the 31 to 33 (75- 80% Sharpshooter) out of 40 hit bracket, so it isn't because of my skills as a trainer.
While video games might be a useful tool, Nothing beats live training.
I'm with Garry on this one.
.
.
SgtRum 7 months ago
@SgtRum It's about the repetetive conditioning to kill (And even being rewarded for doing so) and largely relates to point firing in a lot of cases, which is what the child did in the instance Grossman is referring to... but mostly its about conditioning these kids not to hesitate to kill and enjoy it.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Rewards??? What F'ing Rewards? 20 more points on an electronic scoreboard? We are human beings not monkeys. It is the home and school life of the kids that has the greatest impact on them, not a freaking video game that they play maybe 3% of their teenage life.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Again, In EVERY SINGLE juvenile school shooting case, the juvenile suspects had ONE thing in common: they dropped out of reality and immersed themselves in violent, visual imagery (Video games, shows, and films) The subconscious mind knows not the difference between fantasy and reality. We're not talking about the average casual gamer who becomes a school shooter, but individuals who become obsessed with the gaming and besting their scores and those of others.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , And you know exactly what the suspects were thinking HOW?
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Grossman has made it a study of years and years. He has worked with Phil Chalmers, who wrote Inside the Mind of a Teen Killer, Published by Thomas Nelson Inc., 2009. Grossman wrote the forward. Chalmers actually did extensive interviews of the killers in prison... so the short answer is that THEY ASKED THEM.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum Brain scans of gamers and non gamer juveniles even reveal different chemistry... because the stimulus causes common "flight or fight" hormones to be dumped into the blood stream, which take 48 hours to be purged from the system. Adults can handle it... it doesn't affect them in the same way.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , can you provide us with the link to the "Brain Scan" Studies. Because just going to school every day can cause many fight or flight stimuli at any moment these days.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum go to killology daught com (links can't be posted here) and click "search killology" and type "brain scans", the first link that comes up, "on combat, video game violence", click, then scroll down to the bottom.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , yeah, it's Grossman's website. Go Figure!
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Ah. Now he FABRICATED the scans, right?
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
Whitta completely owned with that last statement.
wiitarded23 8 months ago
@wiitarded23 Yeah, I'm sure the fat game boy knows more about what he's talking about than the former Army Ranger with combat experience.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie When it comes to video games and human experience yes. It's hard to believe you're replying to an old comment I made about a topic that is nearly extinct today.
wiitarded23 4 months ago
@wiitarded23 Not really. He has no idea what the Army simulator is like, other than what Grossman told him, so he's working without tools in trying to compare the two, and he definitely knows nothing about combat to make a comparison. As for the studies linking the behavioral aspects of the gaming (In juveniles- it doesn't apply to adults, they can handle it) considering Grossman is both a combat vet AND a psychiatrist from West Point, fat boy is out of his league in this discussion.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , I have known some former Army Rangers, a few were actually my friends. Many of the ones I know would sieze any opportunity to make a buck like Mr Grossman has tried to do in this example. Here is some study material for you: 3w . theppsc . org / Grossman / Main-R . htm
SgtRum 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@oldschoolpaulie , In case you have a hard time figuring it out, just put 3 w's in front and take the spaces out { 3W . THEPPSC . ORG / GROSSMAN / MAIN-R . HTM } . It will take you to "The Police Policy Studies Council" Who I think will be the subject matter experts on crime, rather than some retired Army Ranger out to make a buck on his washed up career.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Oh, well then you need to give me far more credibility since I'm in my 22nd year of service in law enforcement, and as a rangemaster and firearms instructor. Next?
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , So you completely dismiss The Police Policy Studies Council, your fellow officer's opinion on Mr.Grossman?
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Was I not clear? Yes. Besides, we're talking the opinion of ONE man. I just sat in an auditorium of about 700 officers last Friday at one of Grossman's seminars (Of which I've attended a few, besides reading his work) and I can guarantee you that NONE of the talk amongst the officers was about Grossman's lack of credibility.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , EXACTLY! Video games cause violent crime is the opinion of ONE MAN.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Not really. First, the theory isn't quite as simple as "Video games cause violent crime." Secondly, there are scores of experts in the field who hold the same views. Grossman's views aren't "merely one man's opinion," but based upon extensive recent major scientific studies and empirical research.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , The Video Game Voter's . org website is an organization of hundreds of thousands if not millions of video gamers ranging from the teenage to people in their 80's, and none of them have gone crazy and shot up the schools in their areas. So your math just doesn't add up! Mr Grossman is just WRONG on this issue.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum You have no idea what you're talking about. At this point, you just don't want to be wrong. Read the book, "Stop teaching our kids to kill" by Grossman and DeGaetano. There's no way I can begin to cover it all with these BS posts on youtube. Oh, and continue to ignore the fact that these video games were the common thread with EVERY one of the shooters. I realize, as a layman, it doesn't fit into your world view.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , WOW, so the fact that hundreds of thousands, even millions of people have used video games with no ill effects means nothing to your Police Trained mind? And I'm the one who just wants to be right? Did it ever cross your mind that the evil video games were just a convenient excuse for a criminal? Perhaps to get a lighter sentence. I mean Really! You have dealt with lawyer's before right?
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum So, you've done extensive studies of empirical evidence compiled of all of them. reviewed by peers, to determine that NONE of them have suffered any "ill effects?" And what are your qualifications again? You think Grossman is making excuses for criminals? You OBVIOUSLY haven't heard him talk about these maggots. And BTW, there's no apostrophe in "lawyers."
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@oldschoolpaulie , No I haven't but I suppose you will have to to prove your point right?
SgtRum 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie, I mean you have been to a Dave Grossman seminar and that qualifies you right?
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Make up your mind. You earlier stated, "The Police Policy Studies Council" Who I think will be the subject matter experts on crime, rather than some retired Army Ranger..." No, Grossman stands on his qualifications, and I'll take those over the "sarge's." His observations and positions dovetail perfectly with my 2 decades + experience in LE,
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Mr. Grossman is your idol, that explains your embrace of him and his flawed premise. I lay blame for this phenomena on the Liberal social engineering policies, instead of some magical video game effect that has teens going nuts like Curly when he hears Pop Goes The Weasel. Parents can no longer discipline their children for fear of Childrens Services getting involved. There is no real consequences for teens when they do wrong these days. So go on Idolizing Mr Grossboy.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Oh, that's part and parcel of it. Throw in a certain personality, parents who aren't paying any damned attention, and the psychological effects on children who immerse themselves in violent visual imagery, (Desensitization to violence and killing) and you have a recipe for an individual out of every thousand or so who might become a big baby with a gun.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum Did you know that in WWII, the average soldier would actively try to shoot the enemy only 15-20% of the time? They were training by shooting at bullseyes, and other shapes. By the time Korea came around, they'd learned to use the visual imagery of human silhouettes... this increased the number to 55%. The target images became more and more lifelike, and today, those numbers are much higher. (95% in Vietnam)
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , No need to parrot quotes from the video. I watched the whole video and I'm still not convinced of what Mr. Grossman has to say on this subject.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum I have no idea what video you're referring to.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum As to your jab that Grossman is my idol, that's largely an emotional response on your part. I used to hold the same views that you do about the effects of media on violent tendencies. Grossman presents the data, studies and information in a way that makes perfect sense. I don't simply accept what I'm told; explain it to me, make your case, and if it seems logical and makes sense to me, you can change my view.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Its obcvious that you idolize him since you can't accept the possibility that he is wrong on this.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Actually, its so obvious you're so enamored with your visual/video fantasy world that you can't bring yourself to admit that it's not good for young, developing minds.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie ,Yes, I am quite fond of computer games, but I do not live in a fantasy world such as yours where you and your DoGooder ilk are enamoured with the idea that banning something out of existence will stop violent crimes. And you never heard me say that it was good for young developing minds.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Apparently, you DO live in a fantasy world (Mr. "I've been playing video games since Commodore 64) because no one here has called for the banning of anything. Nor has anyone claimed that doing so "will stop violent crimes." You've definitely ridiculed the idea that it's not good for young people.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Apparently you are living in a fantsy world (Mr. I'm going to save the world DoGooder Cop), since the supreme court has already ruled in favor of Video games as a freedom of speech issue. Yet you and your DoGooder ilk still attempt to stifle Freedom Of Speech, and deprive your fellow Americans of their freedoms. "To Serve And Protect" Way To Go Junior!
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Junior? What makes you assume that you're older than I? This personal attack (Which has nothing to do with your argument) is as ridiculous as your "spending the shift online" nonsense. How am I attempting "to stifle freedom of speech and deprive your fellow Americans of their freedoms? HOW? Go ahead, I'll wait. Resorting to pretending that I advocate prohibition as you do with Grossman makes it pretty obvious you have no argument.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Oh don't get all but hurt now, especially since you are ok with insinuating that I have a Video Game addiction, and am detached from reality. If you are helping to foster a flawed hypothesis that will enable the DoGooders to deprive others of their rights, then you may as well be pulling the trigger, so to speak, on those rights.
SgtRum 4 months ago
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oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
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oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum Not sure where you conjured up any idea that I was "hurt." You don't even have any idea what the research consists of, let alone whether or not it's "flawed." You just don't LIKE the conclusion.
"I have played video games since the Commodore64 (None of which made me crazy or want to kill anyone) and I build my own gaming computers." Nah, no addiction there. How silly of me. What was I thinking?
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , You do feel hurt at some level because you continue to "Argue" your point with me when there are millions of Gamers who have NONE of the effects that you and your idol claim they should have. Thats why you have to insinuate that there is something wrong with me as a person, by claiming that I am addicted to games and therefore can't be objective about the topic..
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Then by your own reasoning, you "feel hurt at some level because you continue to argue your point with me." Let's see your educated scientific studies. (Not your blanket assumptions) I implied you are not objective, because you make a judgement without even considering Grossman's studies or even examining them or his arguments. You've made a judgement based upon a soundbite and your penchant for video games. That is NOT objective.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , And if you are not trying to promote Legislation against V V Games, then where is your argument going? Is it just another Public Service Message???
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum My argument is very simple: Grossman is right about what he's saying. That was the debate he and Whitta were engaging in that started the debate here. Tricky?
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum You still have yet to answer my question as to what you're doing these days "just for a buck," so I'll assume it's definitely not rocket science.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , I just manufacture jet engine components for the aerospace industry and military services. I honorably served 23 + a 2 year homeland defence activation with the Army National Guard before retiring. I studied the Martial Arts since the age of 9 earning a 5th degree black belt. I have played video games since the Commodore64 (None of which made me crazy or want to kill anyone) and I build my own gaming computers. Not as illustrious a career as your idol, but I'm ok with it.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum So, you manufacture jet engine components, "just for a buck?" Or is that for the altruistic benefit of mankind? (For free) Try to focus. Adults can handle the imagery. It desensitizes children to violence and killing. It induces poor behavior and social interaction in most. (Children) Under the right circumstances in SOME individuals, this can lead to actual violence.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , I work for a living, not just to make a buck like Mr. Grossman. BTW I'm not against Mr. Grossman's right to make a buck on his lectures, I'm just saying that he is wrong on this issue. Prohibition seldom works even in totalitarian environs.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Who's calling for prohibition? In both seminars I sat in, Grossman NEVER called for prohibition. A little more parental involvement and supervision, maybe.... you know, sort of in line with your conservative view of where responsibility for juveniles lies.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , well if you watch the video above you'll hear Mr. Grossman list a bunch of organizations such as the Surgeon General, and the U.N. who are "Looking Into" the problem Violent Video Games. And then you'll hear him state that "We" are going to prove there is a link to violence and violent video games in a court of law. I think that is the precursor to prohibition.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum I see. We're now arguing about what he's not arguing, based upon your assumptions. Again, Grossman never calls for any legislation or prohibition in his lectures nor his books. Straw man argument.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Mr. Grossman is using Violent Video games as a Strawman for his hypothesis of there being a link to V V games and teen violence. I don't know why he would lower himself to the status of an ambulance chaser by using this argument, unless he is just trying to gain some quick public notoriety and more profit for himself.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum You're right, you don't know. Your enthusiasm for the games has prevented you from being objective, especially based only on your own theory and conjecture as a layman and "gamer" and a short video of Grossman. It's far more complex than that. You need to get into the details and studies Grossman presents far deeper than a soundbite or internet shouting contest can allow.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Normally I would investigate such matters with extreme prejudice, however in this case it would be a waste of time, since I do not belive the premise is correct. I know Alot of gamers and not a single one has flipped their wig and spazzed out.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum I see. So you're SO objective, you're not willing to even consider the evidence. Now how can I argue with that?
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Time has proven that your idols premise is just wrong. How can I be objective and consider a premise that is WRONG?
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Actually, considering that every last one of the school shooters in history had one consistent factor in common: they dropped out of reality and immersed themselves in a world of violent, visual imagery (I.E., VV games) time has proven that the premise has merit. How can you be objective and consider a premise that is wrong? I don't know, explain it to me, since you're holding to an obviously errant premise right now, based on your emotional attachment to video games.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum But you've shown me the light. There's no point in debate you any further. I'm convinced. I was wrong. From now on, when I want to understand something about the complex workings of the human mind, I won't waste my time with Westpoint psychiatrists with combat experience, and the AMA, APA, NIMH, National Institute of Mental Health, Attorney General, Surgeon General, and American Academy of Pediatrics.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum What would those knuckleheads know about it with their ridiculous scientific, peer reviewed studies and such? No, from now on, when I want an expert opinion, I'll message the lifelong gamer and factory worker with "rum" in his user name. Glad we chatted.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum The AMA, APA, NIMH, National Institute of Mental Health, Attorney General, Surgeon General, and American Academy of Pediatrics all agree with Grossman's "strawman." Laymen and gamers dissent because they don't understand the research and don't want to. All they know is that they like their games.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , These organizations are not neccessarily bastions of conservative thinking, and are known to espouse the banning of personal firearms ownership as well. So Yes Gamers Will Dissent against flawed research.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum That its flawed is simply your emotional, uninformed response. There's no examination, no investigation and no objectivity to your 'determination" that Grossman's research is "flawed," just your reflexive knee jerk reaction. You haven't read his books, or articles, I'm willing to bet, or even looked at the studies. You watched a sound bite and decided you didn't "like" his theories, and that was that. Grossman carries concealed. He's not remotely a gun grabber or of the mindset.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Reading Mr. Grossman's books is not high on my priority list. Especially when there are MILLIONS of gamers who do not suffer from Mr. Grossman's claimed adverse effects. MILLIONS OF GAMERS!
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum May I see your study of millions?
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , From: 3w . 1up . com / news / digital-sales-pc-games-eclipse-physical-retail website,
Article: Digital Sales of PC Games Eclipse Physical Retail in 2010, NPD Claims...
"The NPD Group numbers (via Gamasutra) suggest 11.2 million units have been sold in the United States digitally to 8.2 million units at physical retailers in the period running from January 2010 through June of 2010"
AND: "That's a drop of 14% in total unit sales, and a 21% decline in total revenue"
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Sorry. That's the number of games sold. It's not an in-depth study of users by professionals, peer reviewed, and... oh, never mind. I guess it makes sense to a factory worker.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , OK maybe next time you are at one of Mr.Grossman's seminars you can ask him to study why so few kids are adversly affected by V V Games? That would be a better use of his and my time.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , So anyone who did even a little Google homework on this issue would see that there were over 10 MILLION PC Games (Units) sold in the first two quarters of 2010. Thats 10 MILLION in just PC Games alone!!! Not including any of the consoles, Just PC Games Alone!!! In 2009, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 sold 4.7 million copies in the month of November alone! (NPD Group). If you factor out the percent of ages that were over the teen age group it would still be in the MILLIONS!!!
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Congratulations. You've proven that they sold a lot of games. Sweet.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Yes they sold MILLIONS of games to teens, many of whom are not programmed to kill by just playing the games.
I respect Mr. Grossman's service to our country, but I wish he would just stop lowering himself to the level of an ambulance chaser. He CAN be better than that if he so chooses.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum About your emotive language about "ambulance chaser." If you knew more than what you've gleaned from a sound bite, you'd understand that he spends the majority of his time training police and military when he could be quietly, comfortably retired. Subtract operating costs, like airfare, hotel, and meals to be traveling 6 days/week, and I'm guessing it's worth his while, but not lucrative. Besides, your logic assumes that he couldn't possibly be doing this out of principle.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , He Lectures to people, he doesnt "Train" them.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Oh, absolutely, because training is always " hands-on," right? Ranger would never be capable of that) (And we all know a combat No training is every conducted in a classroom setting. In depth study of the science and psychology of killing could never possibly be "training." Glad you set me straight on that one.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Oh, What have you learned at his "Training" Seminar besides a load of useless "Facts" that you can throw at people who don't believe Mr.Grossman's hypothesis?
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Quite a bit about what makes people "tick" both from the bad guys' side of things, AND our own, and how to prepare for it. You may be enjoying this, but I've got better things to be doing on a Friday night, so I'm out. You like video games, so no amount of reasoning with you is going to budge you in considering there is anything negative about them. THAT much, we've established. 10-98.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , "no amount of reasoning with you is going to budge you in considering there is anything negative about them"
Not true, Some games are priced way too high. Others are of shoddy quality and should have been worked on a little longer before being released. And sometimes they are just too time consuming.
10-98 2 U 2
SgtRum 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , and you have MAYBE a dozen cases where teens were induced to violence by V V Games? Wrongful shooting deaths by the POLICE were more than your lousy 12 cases!
Common sense says you are WRONG on this issue.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum As usual, you haven't done your homework. The research points to an increase in aggressive behavior, which sometimes leads to school shootings. In 1998 alone, according to the US Secret Service, there were 35 murders, and almost a quarter-of-a-million American children "seriously injured" by school violence.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum The possibility of your child being killed or injured by school violence is
small, but it is thousands of times more likely than the possibility of a
school fire, and we have the moral obligation to do at LEAST as much prep for a shooting as for a fire.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum In July, 2000, a joint statement was made to the US Congress by the AMA, the APA, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. What they said was: "Well over 1,000 studies point overwhelmingly to a causal connection between media violence and aggressive behavior in some children."
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , a 1000 cases is still .00something % of the MILLIONS.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum If you ONLY count school murders, and ignore other, very common instances of aggressive behavior and assaults. Try to concentrate.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum That's all of our doctors, psychologists, pediatricians and child
psychiatrists telling the US Congress that media violence causes violence in children. Over a 1,000 studies have demonstrated that if you put media violence in a child's life, you will get an increase in violent behavior. So far, though, no one has demonstrated the reverse: If we take media violence out of a child's life, will violent behavior go down?
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Yes those liberal agencies tend to tell us these things about CHILDREN.
CHILDREN do not play Quake, DOOM, or Call Of Duty, nor do they have much interest in doing so. We were talking about TEEN violence here.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Really? Not long ago, I took a call where a 9 yoa walked into his living room where all of his friends were sitting, racked a round into a 9mm Beretta, and told them all to "STFU." We go out on children out and about at all hours of the morning, and the first gun I found on anyone, some 22 years ago, was on a 14yoa. Don't tell me what children do and don't do. You're only good at ONE thing: lots of assumptions.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , And you know that V V Games caused the 9 yoa to do this?
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum No, we all know, according to you, that never happens, based on your years of personal study of VV games. We don't need no stinkin' case studies!
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Since you like to cite my gaming history in a disparaging way, such as my having played games since the Commodore64, I can spot a bullshit argument from miles away. BTW in YOUR studies have you ever tried playing VV Games???
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum You like to play video games. Awesome. I couldn't care less. My POINT is that it doesn't qualify you to assess their psychological effects; you don't have THAT sort of training, and besides, you're making a judgement as an ADULT. Grossman CLEARY states that adults can handle it.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , WOW, I'm not qualified to asses my psychological effects of my own gaming? And you don't think I would have noticed changes in my own behavior? Well even if that were true, My wife, friends, and or family would have, they know me well enough to have noticed. As for being an adult, the same applies to my teenage sons and daughter, as they are gamers as well. My wife however has NO interest in games.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Besides, my arguments have been far more involved and included stats, specific studies, and listing the authorities on the subject, etc., and you know it. You might not agree with my argument, but don't pretend the focus of my articulations has been on your gaming. To answer your question, they never held my attention for very long; my wife loved a particular arcade game w/ pistols and zombies, (Don't remember the name) and I played it w/ her when we were dating,
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum I was far more into the hot woman who wanted me to play than the game itself. BTW, it was very similar, in many ways to the video/scenario training tool that law enforcement used for quite some time. (FATS) They've evolved at this point, and actual force-on-force training is used quite a bit. (SIMS training) Believe it or not, paint ball is also regarded as a useful training tool. And, believe it or not, this is MY area of expertise. (Combat pistol/rifle, shooting decisions, etc.)
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Believe it or not I've done a little FATS, SIMS, and live training in the military in addition to my gaming time. So if Grossman's Theory holds true, I should be hitting the bullseye every time and have reflexes faster than RoboCop.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum The bullseyes are usually at longer ranges; FATS and SIMS almost always feature scenarios at point-firing distances.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
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Marine2k69 2 months ago
Respond to this video... And one of the Jonesboro, Ark shooters was 11...
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , What Video?
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Stanford University has demonstrated exactly that. Less TV equals less violence. Earlier this year Stanford released a landmark study demonstrating a 50% decrease in verbal aggression, and a 40% decrease in physical aggression, just by encouraging kids to turn off their TVs and video games.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum The Stanford data was gathered at two similar San Jose elementary schools. Researchers first carefully assessed the baseline level of aggressive behavior in 192 third- and fourth-graders through playground observations and interviews. Then, they introduced a curriculum at one school meant to encourage children to cut back on video games and to watch less TV.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum Two-thirds of the pupils agreed to participate in an initial, 10-day effort
to turn off television altogether, which was monitored by slips signed by parents. Over half of them continued to limit their television watching to under seven hours per week during the next 20 weeks.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum After 20 weeks the researchers found a 40 percent reduction in physical
aggression, and a 50 percent reduction in the level of verbal aggression in the overall population at the experimental school compared with the one that did not follow the curriculum.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum The children who were the most aggressive at the outset of the study had the most to gain, and they showed the greatest benefit. The researchers also noted significant reduction in obesity and overeating problems in the school where the curriculum was introduced. But, nevermind all of that. What kind of studies have you done in your basement?
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , anyone can cook "Studies" to show what they wish them to. EX: Global Warming. Which they have renamed "Climate Change" when they were discovered to be using cooked data.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , I don't have a basement.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Isn't your shift over soon?
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum I'm sitting in my living room. Can you stay on topic? Maybe it's an assumption because you're at work on the graveyard shift?
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Wrong.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Legislation would gladly be the next logical step of the DoGooder banners on the left, and Mr. Grossman is just another useful idiot to them. It's hard to believe that a man such as Grossman, who served to protect Constitution and the rights that we Americans enjoy would then participate in such a farce that would enable the DoGooders to take those same rights away.
SgtRum 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@SgtRum And of course, you can't consider for a moment that its about objectivity, i.e. the truth, regardless about whether it's convenient or not. I can't debate with you when you use imaginary arguments or positions that the subject (Grossman) and I aren't even making. And now you're pretending that I'm "hurt." I thought martial arts were supposed to impart patience and maturity. I feel like I'm arguing with a child.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum That will be impossible with someone so invested in his embrace of these video games; you're not open to even consider the evidence, but rather, you lean on your personal anecdotal points to convince yourself as a layman. Your agenda is to defend the games, regardless, because you like them.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , My "Agenda" is one of common sense. Something your police trained mind cannot grasp. The evidence is available to anyone who will look at it. The use of video games has risen since their inception. That means that exposure of video games to the target group (Teens) has also risen. Yet you have only a handful of crimes purportedly inspired by video game exposure. Based on your idol's premise, the cases of video game induced crime should be at epidemic porportions by now.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Yeah, I've just somehow managed to fumble my way through dozens of armed encounters and rise to the level of watch commander after over two decades on the street because common sense is something my "police trained mind" cannot grasp. You're a genius. Our crime and violence levels ARE at an all time high right now. Go to takethechallenge now . net You'll see that their premise of removing TV and gaming results in drastic changes in violence and better performance.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , The FBI annual crime report indicates that crime is not at an all time high, and is in fact down from previous years.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum That's because the murder rate is "artificially" suppressed due to modern medical technology. The violence of the "Old West" is a largely a myth when you compare it to the modern murder rates of, say, D.C. The difference is that back in the day, if the bullet didn't kill you, the infection would. No anesthesia, anesthetic, or antibiotics. Technology saves even 10% more lives now than in the 70s. The docs are keeping the stats down.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , "Artificially Suppressed" Oh please, now you are parroting the anti-gun lobby diatribe of "Modern Medical Technology". And besides that it was the Violent CRIME RATE which encompasses all violent crimes that was down not just the Murder Rate. Now you sound like a first year rookie.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Yeah, that's right. Medical science and technology hasn't progressed at all since the days of the "Wild West," or even the 70's. The survivability rate hasn't gone up at all. What was I thinking.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie violent video games are not a direct root cause of anything violent, sure they can be used by people to fuel their aggression but so could a lot of other mediums, sometimes it could be things that dont even make sense. i agree kids shouldnt be playing violent games but i think more time needs to be spent on the root of the problem rather than wasting time focusing on indirect ways
steven4570 2 months ago
@steven4570 Then we agree; the violent games aren't for children. I'll leave it at that.
oldschoolpaulie 2 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie ok then, i was just was reading through the mass of your comments but couldn't get a clear view of what your stance was, good enough
steven4570 2 months ago
@SgtRum studies in over 30 schools produced average decrease in student aggression on the playground of 55 percent. There was a 48 percent decrease in negative classroom behavior. Schools implementing the curriculum during the state assessment increased math and writing achievement at the elementary level. A Youth Correctional Center implemented the program and saw a 43 percent decrease in aggressive incidents. Marijuana, alcohol, and other drug use was reduced by 50%. Common sense says what?
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , So what you are saying is that the Youth Correctional Center served as a surrogate parent and Imposed strict rules regarding the use of TV, and Video Games thereby improving student behavior. See, proper parenting does work.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum No shit. That's why, in addition to the normal conservative values and supervision I impose upon my kids, they won't be playing violent video games or watching R rated films. MY responsibility... yes.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Congratulations! There is no need for yet more useless bureaucratic legislation in your home.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum Try to stay on topic. "useless bureaucratic legislation" hasn't been brought up in this conversation.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , I am on topic, as this was mentioned in the video above. So are you saying that trying to win a court case to prove that there is a link to Violent Video games and school shootings, thereby setting legal precedence would be absolutely useless to entities trying to impose yet more useless bureaucratic legislation on the public?
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum The case he testified in was a CIVIL SUIT by Sabrina Steger against manufacturers of games used by the punk in the Paducha massacre by and it was dismissed. Even if she'd won, ever heard of the 1st Amendment? Any such laws would be challenged and overturned; the fact of the matter, is that it's never going to happen. The fact remains that Grossman never calls for "prohibition." The closest he comes is recommending that parents disallow them for their children.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
And BTW: you must have missed the point that it doesn't affect adults in the same way. Respond to this video...
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
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oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@SgtRum And how do you know it hasn't affected any of them in violent ways... because none of them have posted from prison, warning you?
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum Oh, and calling a retired Lt. Col who ended his career at West Point "washed up?" What is it you're doing these days?
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , I may not have made it to West Point, but I'm certainly not going around and blaming violent crime on inanimate objects.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@oldschoolpaulie , Just to make a buck I might add.
SgtRum 4 months ago
@SgtRum That's your wrong assumption, based upon spending a few minutes googling Grossman, I'm sure.
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum And exactly WHAT is it you're doing now days, "just to make a buck?"
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
@SgtRum Yeah, you're probably right. It's probably all just a big coincidence that they ALL had this one characteristic in common.
Crap. I should have come to the REAL expert, "Sgt. Rum."
oldschoolpaulie 4 months ago
WHITTA LAYING DOWN THE TRUFAX
Bolrof 8 months ago 4
David Grossman talks like a pompous bastard. Just listen to his voice.
Tairoku 8 months ago 6
Time has proven that this is all bullshit.
It is funny now looking back and seeing how retarded these idiots are who think video games make murderers out of kids.
Ddave73 8 months ago 4
the question is what are the best, most affordable, games to play to build shooting skills?
waypasthadenough 10 months ago
is it just me or does grossman remind you of robocop with the facemask off.
bigcookie83 10 months ago
Good job, Gary. You had a great one sided, uninformed argument, ADMITTING that you know nothing about firearms. I also found it pretty amusing how defensive you were getting. Im not gonna say that it's a sign that you know you are wrong, but.....
newt1972 10 months ago
@newt1972 Wait... are you serious?
tazer95 4 months ago
Gary, you're so cool..why are you dressed like Doug Funnie?
Sniperkitty89 10 months ago