I am glad you are trying to explain you point of view in such a calm manner. It's refreshing to be able to debate with someone who's arguments go further than "You're wrong, because you're racist, because whites are racist - unless they vote ANC" I do have some problems with your argument, however.
Just to get this straight: Are you saying that any song sung under a democratic flag - regardless of its meaning - is naturally good and harmless? Are you implying that a liberation song is magically impervious to elements of racism, hate speech etc?
Applying mathematical terminology to social phenomena might sound very impressive, but it's tricky ground. Further, if whites felt disenfranchised enough to start their own 'liberation movement', would their songs automatically be righteous?
This is a new concept,people fighting for their liberation caring about the invaders feelings,racism, hate speech etc?
...that's a new one.
Whites can't start a liberation movement in south Africa, United states, shit anywhere on the planet except Europe.
the only reason Europeans are tolerated all over the globe is because they control things at this time in history. mark my word the day the United States falls watch for a flight of Europeans back to Europe.
Whatever it refers to , the simple minded masses and the ANC youth league understand that it means to kill all the whites , Boer or English , just so long as we are dead and only then will they feel free. You might be an intellectual but the ignorant politicians are capitalising on using this slogan to move the masses , and it works .........unfortunately.
Mr Mthimkhulu, you have proven to be a well articulated black men. You argument is sound and accurate and please do not be discouraged by hatred-filled white South Africans who have now been relegated to fight a war of a losing dog. And unfortunately most of the boers can not seem to understand the content of your argument, all they see in you is a black man who has brains brighte than theirs. That is why they dismiss you my African brother. Stay black and proud.
i would rather say stay "south african" and proud......i may not be BLACK but i do love SA with all it's people.......Mr Mthimkhulu is an icon of what i would wish all of our our brothers and sisters to be...........THINKING!!!!! do not follow someone just because they sing songs and make u feel warm and fuzzy for a day or two, question your leaders, demand better from them, vote for whom u feel will deliver the best........Siyabonga unfowethu!!
good video. i do take exception to you referring to Neslon Mandela as the first "african" president. he was the first "black" president of SA. all previous presidents of SA were all "African" that happened to be white.
We as south africans needs to move away from this divisive speech that whites are not Africans!!!!
Nelson Mandela was the 1st president of the country if you consider that the white 'presidents' were elected through criminal means. Does 'apartheid' and racism ring a bell? We have never regarded Verwoeds and the like as our presidents that is why we revolted until equality prevailed. However, be entitled to your opinions but please note it does not apply to black people.
He was right to say Mandela was the first African president of South Africa. Just as Obama is the first African American president of the USA.
To be African is to be Nubian, Negroid, Ethiopian, Kemetic, BLACK. To be Black is to be African.
Europeans that live in Africa can have their passports say they are SA, Namibian, Ugandan, Zimbaweian, Angolan but the paasports wont say they are African.
Anyway, a set can be just any random collection of items with no collective intrinsic value.
Only under a group structure in a set can there be definite meaningful mathematical interpretation such as equivalence relation. And you have clearly provided no metaphoric/mathematical explaination why the flag can be considered a group and the song to be a subgroup or an element.
Hence you have simply illustrated your opinion without mathematical coherence.
Mtimkulu - I would imagine you to be far more of a logical thinker than a philosopher but could you make a video on Steve Biko's Black Consciousness? I would feel that true freedom is found in the liberation of the mind, away from sway from many of the derogatory comments below placed by the Boer colonialists, as a means to keep Black masses mentally suppressed. Just by the by, I am white, but cannot handle the disgusting boer slave drivers who have lost their slave hold. They must leave
The past, present and future are not separate but a continuation of time. you cannot have any without the others. the past will always follow us closely in the present while we try to grasp the future. Umshini Wami will always follow those related to it. i.e South Afrikans. the same applies to other parts of the world.
I like your video, clear and obviously thoughtful. But in a country blighted by violence "Bring me my machine gun" is not a tactful song. It will inspire fear into those on the wrong side of Zuma, and echoes too closely the words of Julies Malema who declared the Youth League would take up arms and kill for Zuma if he went to jail.
A powerful army (if Malema gets his way), legal impunity, far fetched promises and an extremely blighted personality. Adolf, Joseph, Chairman, Robert, Jacob?
Brother such hate songs charged with so much energy are only a recipe for dissaster. We used to have similar songs during colonial/ mau mau era and early 60's in kenya and the kenyatta government banned them all. One such energy charged song in ki-Kamba language had the lines "lets kick out the "mzungu" back to europe, where he belongs, God is great, Kenyatta is Kenya". Avery dangerous song indeed. there were incidences, the artist was arrested and all hate songs banned. Zuma is openly evil.
I don't know why people always try to over complicate simple issues.
Ten thousand Zuma supporters show up at a rally and are charged up by the promoters with the same energy that was used to violently mobilise against white people not so long ago. Now, I don't think they got the memo about the change in meaning so either Zuma is a racist or he shows very poor judgement (again), both of which could not be very good for South Africa.
Good job mate. Your points were well express and understood. The point that most people fail to get, is that the so called credible sources( CNN, TIME, BBC and etc) can are sometimes bais when delivering their news.
Look mate, the crowds were singing Ushimi Wami in the Alexandra township when they were rounding up the foreigners to kill them during the last xenophobic attacks. This is a fact.
To you the song may mean peace. But that's certainly not the case for the people who chose to sing it while performing such atrocious acts. To me, this song means violence and prejudice. In this particular case, prejudice against foreigners. But who will be the next scape goat?
Reading all your comments really impresses me Mtimkhulu. You are a man among men and I am so glad to have seen your perspective and informed opinion. We South Africans could do well with more of us being as positive and upbeat about the future. I do try to bring a positive approach myself and I will aim to make such positive takes on video myself. Keep your videos coming, SA needs more positive approach reflection on youtube!
Absolutely. South Africa is examplary in terms of assertively making the multiethnic society work. In many ways you are ahead of many and the world looks to South Africa for moral guidance. I know there are some neo-apartheid attempting to reverse the clock but the inexorable march of time has left them behind. Phambili. Siyabonga.
South Africa is examplary in holding records for crime rates, murder, rape AIDS, corruption and legislated racial discrimination in the form of AA and BEE.
Won't be long until SA has caught up with your liberation struggle comrades in Zimbabwe. Now are you going to justify the other "struggle" songs like "kill the farmer..", "with these matches..." and "one settler, one bullet"? No wonder SA is the murder capital of the world!!
Guys, God will help heal South Africa, we need faith and to pray to him and ask for help. Its a beautiful place with amazing people. God bless all of you
Zuma himself has said it means bring me my machine gun, and was a rebel song that he still sings and it refers to violence. Just google it--- "Zuma" + "umshini wami" I expect you to remove this comment though as you have with others that point this fact out and give links!!
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Go back to africa you dumb ass. Why do you live in a white country if you feel so strong about defending the circus animals in SA. Freeking idiot!!!! Eish!
You are right and there is no reason to be in this kind of situation. I personally don't understand how we ended here in the first place. Energy is computable in terms of our needs and cost even many years down the road. We shouldn't have been in this situation and maybe we are being sabotaged here i.e. paying for our strides in building an egalitarian society.
How many year does South Africa have left before...what? Please clarify. Your problem is not purely mathematical but is very much economical and that requires an economist. The energy crisis poses a threat to the economic growth although the top rating agencies say there is no reason to panick for now. Eskom oversold energy to African countries and ignored its main motherland and now we suffer the consequences. What do you think?
I think SAcans are paying for poor planning of the power echelons in this instance and so many others, such as health care, crime management, battling corruption. The country will never be able to function as long as you have greedy baboons pulling the strings from the top
ps. "baboons" is not used to refer to race - just to very stupid people - any racially related similarities are coincidental
Sawubona mfowethu. Your Zulu is great. Your comments are appreciated. I particularly like your good faith attempt in expressing yourself in the Zulu language and are doing a superb job at that.Keep up the good work.
Mr "M" I'll get to my tagged video as soon as possible but I'm going through a bit of sticky wicket at this time...thanks in advance for your patience.
Take your time ShiekUrBooty and we shall appreciate it when it comes. Someone who owed me money for a long time eventually paid me back and made this comment "money is good anytime". So anytime you have it ready we shall appreciate it. This goes to others as well who plan to honour us this way. Siyabonga. Many thanks.
You are most welcome. Siyabonga means thank you. In a more literal translation it means "we are grateful" using plurality. That's because Zulus of long ago lived as part of the collective and so you could only express yourself as the collective and not as an individual under our modern capitalist society. The singular form is "Ngiyabonga" meaning I am grateful. A convoluted explanation.
This is an interesting perspective and Thomas Hobbs was such a thinker. This puts you up there with the great thinkers. On the other hand since social contract implies social agreement, it goes without reason that your prior input is fundamental to the contract gaining its legitimacy. Great thoughts.
Theres no point in discussing the meaning of the Umshini Wami words. If youre not part of a Zulu culture you wont understand it as they do...they see it as a happy song in order to provoke & encourage some people in the hope that they will win the next vote. Look the country is a complete fuck-up anyway since mandela has left...and it will keep going down the drain. Let them drown in their own current doings and their future sorrows. Nothing can save that country anymore...
I sense a deep hurt in you. have you lately visited your beautiful motherland South Africa? I was there not too long ago and was imbued with the natural physical beauty and the ability of the ordinary people to transcend the ravages of crime to enjoy the unspoken beauty of the land. One of the places I enjoyed was the coast of Port Elizabeth. Nothing compares. The Waterfront in Cape Town was like the cherry on the ice. Give them time.
I agree it remains a country with beautifull and georgeous people and the best picturesque landscapes. I am a very lucky man for growing up there. I have nothing against the people as I form part of the 12 nations. I love the people and its the occasional (too many) criminals that spoil this for those who'd like to move forward. The goverment dont look after their people and only do it for corrupt personal gain. It remains a lovely place...
I like that optimism in you and in good time we must overcome the security concerns that face everyone. There are lots of hardworking people within the government trying to make a difference but on the other hand reading about some who fail to live up to the stringent standards of serving others is regrettable and discouraging. All that being said siya phambili - forging ahead. Your points are understandable. Many thanks.
This is why I thought that if Mr. Zuma released an album he would do well. I am not sure where you can find the full text of the song. If I come across one (not making promises) I will pass it along unless if the gods visit me at night to do the translation.
You shouldn't easily give up like that. Remember in the jungle you can't give up. You must be strong and determined to preserve your survival to the end rain or shine.
That's the rumour going around, and its bloody scary. Surely you can understand if I'm trying to hear other people's opinions? I can't believe that it is true, this country has its problems but we're working on that. I just wanted your opinion.
Hello Britsie111 I did look at the Google search; circulating rumours discounted by Police Commissioner Sally de Beer as scary mongering that when Mandela dies Blacks will attack and kill Whites. It's regrettable that Whites are easily spooked by these unfounded stories. Given the same circumstence I would be scared off too and Whites are understandably spooked however unfounded. Opportunists are preying on these natural fears.
Oh believe me I'm far from giving up. Thanks for taking the time to look into these rumours, and for understanding whites' fears. But..the majority of white people who heared this story believe firmly that it is just that...a story. We've come a long way from apartheid, and even though there's still a few issues, the majority people of my generation are positive about the future of this beautiful country.
Being strong and true is paramount to survive in the jungle. Yes there is a lot of goodwill in the South African society. I was shocked by those rumours because they can spook anyone. What the South African administration needs to do right now is embark on an aggressive economic policy to eradicate extreme poverty. This is where the Betrayal of democracy will ensue unless definitive steps are taken. South Africa is doing a superb job and I respect Mr. Thabo Mbeki for visionary economics.
Government is like many of those big charities. They take in money one way or another and only 10 percent of that money is used to help people who are supposed to be served by government, the blood suckers.
If govt and the private sector can move in a positive direction toward improving the economy and societal issues, then almost all will fall into place.
Economic solidarity between the private enterprise and the public enterprise would benefit the common folk at least by removing stonewalling which stands in the way of progress. instead of wasting resources competing against each other now they become engaged in collaborative competition.
yahoo search uhuru sa....you'll see what I'm talking about. above top secret. again I'm not saying this is true, I just really want to know what your opinion is on this. thanx alot
hi im from sa, and lately theres been wild stories flying around, about uhuru aka night of the long knives...im white, and not racist. i wasnt part of the apartheid, so why is it that i must live in fear for me and my children, about something that i didnt do wrong?
Dear britsie111 your commentary is appreciated. I checked your channel but there is nothing there about you. You have no history and as so I have no way of corroborating what you are saying. I will give you the benefit of doubt and take you at your word. So be honourable and don't let me down. I don't believe anyone should be punished for what they didn't do otherwise there's no fairness there.
Hi Mtimkhulu I have nothing on my channel, because Ive only joined youtube yesterday.I'm not saying that I believe all these stories, I can't imagine that it really could happen.I've never been a racist and I firmly believe in equality, seeing that God made everyone.What the apartheid regime did was very wrong,I know that.But I can't see why the next generations must suffer because of it.Google this and you'll see the stories.
Googling South African stories is that Black South Africans are effectively absent from those Google results. The last research I did about Blacks in internet connectivity in South Africa was less than 1% and most of those connected were through their employement which does not allow free expression. South African Whites controll and dominate the media as you know and so Googling is no comfort.
I don't believe Black people of South Africa will engage in some ethnic cleansing of their White brothers and sisters. There is no basis for that. However what we need to do as a society is eradicate poverty because we have already seen these unacceptably high levels of crime that need to be rooted out. Some of the things we hear about are beyond my comprehension. What poses a threat to the democracy of South Africa is extreme poverty in more than 50% of the population.
I have no objections to others' opinion as a matter of fact I encourage discussion. What is not acceptable and I have zero tolerance for are racist, sexist, vulgar epithets. I don't believe in evangelizing and converting racists because that is doomed to fail. I only share ideas with those that reciprocate respect, honour and ideas in an open-minded way. You have nothing to fear if you are devoid of profanity.
I can completely understand why black South Africans would be signing Umshini Wami in the past, but in 2008, it's inappropriate. Most of the white bigots have gone to Europe or Australia. The Afrikaners in South Africa today are trying to get back in tune with the continent and their neighbors. Hopefully Zuma soon sees this and comes to his senses.
Umshini Wami has nothing to do with violance. The reliable way of gauging freedom is the economic wellbeing of the oppressed. If they continue to live under extreme suffering in an affluent society then we know that racial oppression persists via economics. The reason for apartheid was economic control.
On all of that I agree, but that takes time to fix, and in this day and age you can't just take from the rich to give to the poor, or the rick are gonna get the heck outta there. Economic growth, the policy that Mbeki and Mandela took, is the way to go - because then everybody benefits.
I couldn't agree more hence this is the policy of the government. What is being reevaluated is how far it has benefited everybody and whether any adjustments are overdue to ensure that.
Hi, there. Check out the following link my friend. Joseph Zuma himself has admitted it was a song about a machine gun. So have other ANC members who believe the song is inappropriate now---- it was and is a fighting song--- time does not change meaning!
Trying to discuss something worthwhile, I would like to know what you think about a southern africa bloc. I.e. using a single currency; holding presidential elections for each country concurrently to help facilitate a sort of peer review (post Mugabe); rotating heads of central banks and limited to 5 year terms.
I feel this could maximize resources, minimize graft, and minimize european and asian exploitation.
There is already an organization SADC (Southern African Development Community) which started in 1980 (same year Zimbabwe became independent from the colonial Britain) as SADCC with nine countries but now has 14 member countries. One such member Congo is being assisted heavily by South Africa (formerly assisted militarily by Zimbabwe, Namibia) to avoid civil war.
However, I woul dnot waist much energy on this reindeer fellow. As I've said before, he is highly transparent and is just a relic of the old guard in SA. It's like trying to discuss the capital asset pricing model with a 5 year old....they just won't get it.
mtimkhulu said that his neck of the woods is the evnvy of the world...that is true. It will come later...but it is true. I bet that president Putin, Mushariff or Ahmadinejad knows it.
If the song just refers to a political machine - can you maybe clarify why hundreds of Zuma supporters are running aroung with wooden replicas of assault rifles with the words "Umshini Wami" emblazoned on the butt of these? It is a joke that somebody that is still facing massive corruption charges could be the next president. Banana republic here we come.
GENLdelaREY if take a look at Zuma's supporters photos you will notice that the people with wooden replicas are very few maybe 1 or 2? Where have you seen "hundreds of Zuma supporters are running aroung with wooden replicas of assault rifles"? This shows that the majority are singing in support of a political machine which they feel has been taken away from them.
this just show that they either did not have time or wood to make "guns". I have been to a few of Zuma's rallies because of my work and I have seen hundreds of these weapons. Also I saw alot of dancing simulating a firing position.
In the new South Africa if you make yourself the enemy of the government they will arrest you which is why we should all be peaceful law abiding citizens.
GendelaRey is racism is a term reserved purely for the benefit of the weaker races. I.e. it's impossible for blacks to be racist towards whites. So a black can run around with wooden AK47 singing the Machine gun song, however if a white dressed up as a boer commando, & rode a horse into Pretoria there would be a fuckin outcry. Or Blacks can have channel called BET (Black Entertainment TV) but if whites launched a similar channel called WET the blacks would have a fuckin baby.
Why spend so much energy trying to justify your views about racism? It's stressful to strenuously advocate a viewpoint that is not shared by the free people of the world. If you keep your views private then at least you don't have to try that hard.
Its funny I have been battling with my racist views for a while, which are effecting me in a negative way. If I met you I would have nothing against you personally. Its not okay for black people to do certain things that offend other races, just purely because of events like apartheid. Personally I think the old SA flag & Umshini Wami should be banned as they are both offense to some South Africans. This is in the spirit of reconciliation & moving forward.
In order to reconcile and move forward, the mistakes of the past have to be rectified adn acknowledged.
It would be very convenient for poor blacks in South Africa to just "forget and move forward" for those who have benefitted from that system wouldn't it though?
To help you understand this using your own example...blacks in america have BET because whites have CBS, NBC, MTV, ABC, FOX, and myriad other channels that cater to their thoughts and wishes on cable (satellite).
So blacks will just attain and own their own channel and not "have a fuckin baby" because whites have theirs.
It is only outright ignorant discrimmination that us blacks "have a fuckin baby" about.
I understand what you are saying. Probably a bad example on my behalf. I just wish in SA, that people could realise that certain symbols which are offense to blacks and others that are offense to whites should both be avoided. It just feels that white people have to tip toe around black people's feelings, however Black people totally disregard white people's feelings. We get the attitude if we don't like it we should leave like we are not South African.
I don't advocate "total disregard" for White people's feelings. We all, as members of the human race, must forward without the hangups of race. Some fundamentals have to be in place to facilate this.
What?? None of the channels you mentioned are catering to the whites. In fact they are all petrified of offending blacks. Thats why CNN's Kyra Phillips has led her viewers to believe that dangling a noose—an impolite and impolitic form of expression—is a hate crime; a black man beating a white man to a pulp—not so much. And I was specifically referring to name chosen for the BET channel not the channel itself.
I don't watch or own a TV and am not familier with Kyra Phillips. BET was formed nearly 30 years ago for Black audience. Today is owned by Jewish people (Summer Redstone) via Viacom same people who own CBS, inter alia. BET targets young urban audience and they are more of a business than anything ideological.
Mfundza your positive feedback is appreciated. Let's hope that we can inject some civility into this very important discussion. South Africans are ahead of North Americans because they can confront painful issues and talk about them. It is not easy but must be done in order to heal. Your children and my children can all live in peace regardless of race, gender, religion, culture, creed or whatever.
SA held its first elections some 13 years ago, and till this day I have never met a black person who acknowledges voting for the ANC in niether the first election nor any since. This is just the way blacks people are, they all talk shit.
FLESH1973 your restless mind is so spontaneous you are unable to exercise selective judgment. You are still raw at the core and rough on the edges. Your misguided mind betrays you. Your tempestuous soul is raging like a crazy barbarian in the untamed jungle of ignorance. Your undomesticated behaviour makes you afraid of the coming black storm and yet a reaction to the figment of imagination. There is nothing to be afraid of. Exit the jungle and the civilized society will embrace you.
FLESH1973 we don't hate you or plan any revenge against you or anyone. We are all brothers and sisters. I appreciate your reconsideration on this issue. Change is not easy but life must go on and we can do this as a graceful people of an extremely beautiful motherland South Africa. There is no country like this on the planet. We are the envy of the world.
Many thanks. Black and White South Africans are brothers and sisters. We have a common destiny and moreover the Afrikaaner have an African mother's maternal instinct and so we are all sons and daughters of the African soil.
If the words used to imply violence and death targeted specifically at one race then it is high time the ANC wrote some more lyrics, REGARDLESS of the terrible crimes of the past (and I do believe the regime had to come to an end), white people are the most targeted ethnic group in SA when it comes to violent crime so it's a bit nasty to say the least for the government to sing about killing them.
ANC does not target White folks nor do they intend to do so. The last time I checked African descendents were the most targetted in Europe, North America by some and god knows where else yet Africans remain disciplined and graceful to coexist with others. Africans love and embrace White folks as brothers and sisters. There is nothing nasty there.
I never said that the ANC does target white people. I did say that seeing as white people are the most targeted group in SA in terms of violent crime and it is therefor a bit bloody much of the government to sing songs about killing them.
You are probably referring here to "One settler one bullet"? Nobody sings that today. The person who sang that passed away long ago. No need to be afraid.
I'm referring to the machine gun lyrics. And judging by the crime statistics (black on white rape in America has increased by a factor of more than 10 since the end of segregation), and the demographic changes happening in all white countries I would say there is ever reason to be afraid for my children and their children because they will be a hated minority who are constantly picked on for the crimes of my ancestors.
Most victims of crime in South Africa are the Black township residents. You are safer in a car than being a pedestrian. White areas have better defence than townships. I understand the concerns about the past and your children. It's same here in Canada where minority kids are subject to racial slurs. South Africa is better because they confront those issues whereas Canadians find it taboo to talk about racism. So in Canada we suffer in silence.
There are no machine gun lyrics. Any evidence of your statement? No one rapes a White woman or any woman except for a criminal. You prefer a racist analysis. One reason for apartheid was sexual fear (swaart gevaar). Apartheid Immorality Act of 1950 forbade sex between Whites and Blacks and underwear was used as forensic evidence. You fondly recall those good laws, is that right?
sorry, I posted the last comment twice. Just to tackle the second part of your statement. I really think you need to do your homework if you think Africans are the most targeted group western countries. This is just no the case, there is a far higher percentage of blacks attacking whites in every country in which they co-exist than the other way round. If you like I can find the information for you. Africans are not disciplined when it comes to co-existing, think Rwanda 1994.
In which country do you live? If you hear about police shooting citizens or immigrants, it's usually African descendants i.e. USA and Canada. That is changing though but remains a problem. They say is due to mistaken identity. Somehow Africans look alike. In South Africa White folks marry Black girls and vice versa. So people are now accepting and respecting each other. Rwanda is a collonial problem from Belgium. Are you not hopeful of the future? You can only see the negative?
I have been very hopeful for the future. But I have to admit that for hope to continue people will have to bite the bullet and work with the racial differences that do exist. I agree that a disproportionate number of African immigrants are shot, but the reality is that a disproportionate number of them are violent criminals.
Atleast blacks sing and not kill. How many blacks died in the hands of boers?I cannot say whites,that would make me ignorant and racist like some of you b.... I lost my father, brothers and sisters but guess what I have forgiven all those involved and moved on, however that cannot stop me from singing the songs of struggle,we sing these songs to remember our fallen heroes like my father.black race what a loving race.I say that with pride as African sister struggling in USA
"A 19-year-old woman was raped after she was kidnapped by a man who wanted to make her his wife, said Eastern Cape police on Sunday.
Captain Jackson Manatha said the 25-year-old man was following the old "Xhosa Thwala Custom, where men would kidnap women and declare them their wives without consent and rape them".
This comes from a black man and it seems he is saying that rape is a cultural thing amongst black xhosa men in SA. Source - news24
It's a criminal offence to commit rape and no society or culture condones this. My heart bleeds for the victim. RSAJones do you honestly believe that "rape is a cultural thing amongst black xhosa men in SA"? News 24 is a White media of the Afrikaaners Nationale Pers that defames Black people in South Africa and says nice things about White people.
Well I certainly hope it isn't however this was not my opinion but a Xhosa man's opinion, and I assume he would know more than me. Unless of course he was misquoted - care to share some in sight into the Xhosa Thwala Custom? I doubt it was simply made up by News24 to discredit black people.
If it has no refference to machine guns, could you explain why Zuma's supporters, outside his rape trial, were carrying wooden machine guns with "Umshini Wami" painted on the side?
Wooden machine guns are great because they don't shoot. If I became a president I would ban all the deadly machine guns and instead authorize the wooden replicas. This is merely a nostalgic fervor of the anti-apartheid era but definitely no violence.
In that case, JoeFelice is completely and utterly correct in voicing concern over dual usage of symbols. It would be an incredibly easy thing to do, to turn those who are nostalgic about the anti-apartheid era, from wooden guns used as a show of semi peaceful (as threatening Zuma's accuser wasn't very "nice") support, to real ones. All one would need to do was to imply that there was once again a struggle to be fought.
JoeFelice motivated the debate to look at the dual meaning. If you have not eaten rough cereal before you get started on baby cereal and when you can stomach that you must graduate to an adult cereal. The political machine is the adult cereal with lots of moral fibre.
So if I have deciphered your metaohor corectly, the current state of South African politics, is mature and those involved would in no way move toward violent action, becuase they have morals?
Absolutely! It's not in anyone's interest to engage in violent action. One thing that preempts violence is an intellectual honesty in expressing and dealing with issues. The economically disenfranchised people need to be taken care of. South Africa is beautiful and there is no room for extremists.
There is a book A Goodbye To My Little Troubles which poetically says "Via neo-apartheid some vilify / Via a sacred blade we fortify". Basically the task of fortifying the foundations of peace is sacred and we shall do this in spite of the forces of reaction. So my brother we are the sons of the African soil and siya phambili.
Pretty much the same as you, South African but working in the UK. Heading back to SA in Feb for two months to see if it still has a future for a pale face like me.
What are your thoughts on SA's future? Do you believe that Zuma can be trusted by the people?
Why the obsession with "pale face"? I was born under the brutal system of apartheid and yet I have no obsession with skin pigmentation. I love all people. North Americans are not that obsessed. You are giving me a negative rating, because I don't deserve a better rating?
I have no obsession with having a 'pale face' and apologies if I offended you. I was merely asking you indirectly if you think that SA has a future for me being a white person brining into consideration our past history and the governments attitude to the reformation process. I would like go back to SA and hopefully give something back to the country that has given me so much but only if I'm wanted there hence the reason for me asking you your valued opinion on Jacob Zuma's imminent presidency.
Thanks for clarifying. White South Africans must feel at home in South Africa. Some Black South Africans are born in North America or Europe and it would be inhuman if they were told they don't belong. We need you to contribute to the beautiful motherland. What is not acceptable are those neo-apartheid extremists.
I left SA 6 months ago, was born there and spent 45 years of my life there, My roots are there, my family, the graves of loved ones... How can you say whites MUST feel at home in SA. Feeling welcome in any place can never be an imperative. It can only be an instinctive response to being wanted and quite frankly, whites are not wanted. Your governments policies backed with action is proof of that. I was on the receiving end of that. I left
It's regrettable that you had to leave your beautiful motherland. Maybe you developed new instincts for where you are now. It happens. I can only wish you well over there but one thing for sure you will feel another instinct to return. I lived most of my life outside but now I feel that instinctive response you talk about. Don't lose heart. Just trust your instincts. Check this book out An African in Greenland.
You have nothing to fear from the great Mr. Jacob Zuma. He will embrace all South Africans. Yet he is going to be aggressive in the fight against poverty, crime and elitism. The patience of the economically disenfranchised is not endless. It's prudent to open the economy to all South Africans. You have a positive role to pay if you love South Africa. There is no country like South Africa.
I know that there is no country like SA. I was born and lived there for 24 years of my life. Can I presume that you are going to go back to South Africa one day to play a positive role?
This has been flagged as spam show
You are 100% right. Anyybody can easily grab this mp3 file at mp3tuber..net
Mattie38146 1 year ago
Excellent post. Context is everything.
Everyone (Asian, Black and White) should join the struggle against social inequality, economic inequality, and for social harmony.
Umshini Wami!
tigerone1970 2 years ago
I am glad you are trying to explain you point of view in such a calm manner. It's refreshing to be able to debate with someone who's arguments go further than "You're wrong, because you're racist, because whites are racist - unless they vote ANC" I do have some problems with your argument, however.
deelman 2 years ago
Just to get this straight: Are you saying that any song sung under a democratic flag - regardless of its meaning - is naturally good and harmless? Are you implying that a liberation song is magically impervious to elements of racism, hate speech etc?
Applying mathematical terminology to social phenomena might sound very impressive, but it's tricky ground. Further, if whites felt disenfranchised enough to start their own 'liberation movement', would their songs automatically be righteous?
deelman 2 years ago
This is a new concept,people fighting for their liberation caring about the invaders feelings,racism, hate speech etc?
...that's a new one.
Whites can't start a liberation movement in south Africa, United states, shit anywhere on the planet except Europe.
the only reason Europeans are tolerated all over the globe is because they control things at this time in history. mark my word the day the United States falls watch for a flight of Europeans back to Europe.
ODNAbc 2 years ago
Whatever it refers to , the simple minded masses and the ANC youth league understand that it means to kill all the whites , Boer or English , just so long as we are dead and only then will they feel free. You might be an intellectual but the ignorant politicians are capitalising on using this slogan to move the masses , and it works .........unfortunately.
crossbow121 2 years ago
Thank you for your opinion - I am blessed to have heard such a wonderful reasoning
jillhenning 2 years ago
"The FIRST AFRICAN PRESIDENT OF S.A
FABAOtv 2 years ago
Mr Mthimkhulu, you have proven to be a well articulated black men. You argument is sound and accurate and please do not be discouraged by hatred-filled white South Africans who have now been relegated to fight a war of a losing dog. And unfortunately most of the boers can not seem to understand the content of your argument, all they see in you is a black man who has brains brighte than theirs. That is why they dismiss you my African brother. Stay black and proud.
bougga1 2 years ago
i would rather say stay "south african" and proud......i may not be BLACK but i do love SA with all it's people.......Mr Mthimkhulu is an icon of what i would wish all of our our brothers and sisters to be...........THINKING!!!!! do not follow someone just because they sing songs and make u feel warm and fuzzy for a day or two, question your leaders, demand better from them, vote for whom u feel will deliver the best........Siyabonga unfowethu!!
ODINexpat 2 years ago 2
fuck black if you read this you suck black amen even though god doesnt exist
badboygbd 2 years ago
Comment removed
MnrKhaba 2 years ago
good video. i do take exception to you referring to Neslon Mandela as the first "african" president. he was the first "black" president of SA. all previous presidents of SA were all "African" that happened to be white.
We as south africans needs to move away from this divisive speech that whites are not Africans!!!!
ODINexpat 2 years ago
Nelson Mandela was the 1st president of the country if you consider that the white 'presidents' were elected through criminal means. Does 'apartheid' and racism ring a bell? We have never regarded Verwoeds and the like as our presidents that is why we revolted until equality prevailed. However, be entitled to your opinions but please note it does not apply to black people.
bougga1 2 years ago
He was right to say Mandela was the first African president of South Africa. Just as Obama is the first African American president of the USA.
To be African is to be Nubian, Negroid, Ethiopian, Kemetic, BLACK. To be Black is to be African.
Europeans that live in Africa can have their passports say they are SA, Namibian, Ugandan, Zimbaweian, Angolan but the paasports wont say they are African.
FABAOtv 2 years ago
What is a "super set" to begin with?
Anyway, a set can be just any random collection of items with no collective intrinsic value.
Only under a group structure in a set can there be definite meaningful mathematical interpretation such as equivalence relation. And you have clearly provided no metaphoric/mathematical explaination why the flag can be considered a group and the song to be a subgroup or an element.
Hence you have simply illustrated your opinion without mathematical coherence.
viewerize 2 years ago
Mtimkulu - I would imagine you to be far more of a logical thinker than a philosopher but could you make a video on Steve Biko's Black Consciousness? I would feel that true freedom is found in the liberation of the mind, away from sway from many of the derogatory comments below placed by the Boer colonialists, as a means to keep Black masses mentally suppressed. Just by the by, I am white, but cannot handle the disgusting boer slave drivers who have lost their slave hold. They must leave
happyness01 2 years ago
Why not wrap up Umshini Wami in the old SAcan flag & leave it in the past??
If your arms are laden with the past you'll never be able to embrace the future.
Juggellnaut 2 years ago
The past, present and future are not separate but a continuation of time. you cannot have any without the others. the past will always follow us closely in the present while we try to grasp the future. Umshini Wami will always follow those related to it. i.e South Afrikans. the same applies to other parts of the world.
handsomeboy490 2 years ago
I like your video, clear and obviously thoughtful. But in a country blighted by violence "Bring me my machine gun" is not a tactful song. It will inspire fear into those on the wrong side of Zuma, and echoes too closely the words of Julies Malema who declared the Youth League would take up arms and kill for Zuma if he went to jail.
A powerful army (if Malema gets his way), legal impunity, far fetched promises and an extremely blighted personality. Adolf, Joseph, Chairman, Robert, Jacob?
incredibleschalk 2 years ago
I like this video very much sir,
jabzulani 2 years ago
I like your math Brother......it adds up.
Natturner187 2 years ago
Brother such hate songs charged with so much energy are only a recipe for dissaster. We used to have similar songs during colonial/ mau mau era and early 60's in kenya and the kenyatta government banned them all. One such energy charged song in ki-Kamba language had the lines "lets kick out the "mzungu" back to europe, where he belongs, God is great, Kenyatta is Kenya". Avery dangerous song indeed. there were incidences, the artist was arrested and all hate songs banned. Zuma is openly evil.
handsomeboy490 3 years ago
A great video. The times magazine is a jewish magazine. So what would you expect from these people.
makheyi 3 years ago
To say that a Song can'y be a "Super-set" where a Physical Object is "Super-Set" without proof is false.
To use mathematics and personal opinion nulifies your equation.
Is not a "National Anthem" a "Super-set" for a country?, equally as powerful as the Flag of said country?
Could it be that that song was infact the "Confederate Flag" for those in the struggle they faced in Apartheid?
Wrahns 3 years ago
I don't know why people always try to over complicate simple issues.
Ten thousand Zuma supporters show up at a rally and are charged up by the promoters with the same energy that was used to violently mobilise against white people not so long ago. Now, I don't think they got the memo about the change in meaning so either Zuma is a racist or he shows very poor judgement (again), both of which could not be very good for South Africa.
Bravowon 3 years ago 6
Good job mate. Your points were well express and understood. The point that most people fail to get, is that the so called credible sources( CNN, TIME, BBC and etc) can are sometimes bais when delivering their news.
austineoe 3 years ago
Look mate, the crowds were singing Ushimi Wami in the Alexandra township when they were rounding up the foreigners to kill them during the last xenophobic attacks. This is a fact.
To you the song may mean peace. But that's certainly not the case for the people who chose to sing it while performing such atrocious acts. To me, this song means violence and prejudice. In this particular case, prejudice against foreigners. But who will be the next scape goat?
crzdude 3 years ago
awesome video..
tjoepie 3 years ago
You make some good points. But surely a song which sings about violence should not have a place in the most violent country in the world.
macafricascot 3 years ago 3
Tour de force..
mzimb 3 years ago
Wish more people shared your view and wisdom. By that I mean putting things in perspective.
Crimefighter9mm 3 years ago
Many thanks.
Mtimkhulu 3 years ago
Reading all your comments really impresses me Mtimkhulu. You are a man among men and I am so glad to have seen your perspective and informed opinion. We South Africans could do well with more of us being as positive and upbeat about the future. I do try to bring a positive approach myself and I will aim to make such positive takes on video myself. Keep your videos coming, SA needs more positive approach reflection on youtube!
happyness01 4 years ago
Absolutely. South Africa is examplary in terms of assertively making the multiethnic society work. In many ways you are ahead of many and the world looks to South Africa for moral guidance. I know there are some neo-apartheid attempting to reverse the clock but the inexorable march of time has left them behind. Phambili. Siyabonga.
Mtimkhulu 3 years ago
South Africa is examplary in holding records for crime rates, murder, rape AIDS, corruption and legislated racial discrimination in the form of AA and BEE.
Won't be long until SA has caught up with your liberation struggle comrades in Zimbabwe. Now are you going to justify the other "struggle" songs like "kill the farmer..", "with these matches..." and "one settler, one bullet"? No wonder SA is the murder capital of the world!!
globalnomad62 3 years ago 3
preciate the wisdom...
psiko20 4 years ago
Thanks for the encouragement.
Mtimkhulu 3 years ago
Guys, God will help heal South Africa, we need faith and to pray to him and ask for help. Its a beautiful place with amazing people. God bless all of you
bokke81 4 years ago
I personally don't subscribe to religiosity but I respect your point of view and many others who share your views. Many thanks.
Mtimkhulu 3 years ago
Zuma himself has said it means bring me my machine gun, and was a rebel song that he still sings and it refers to violence. Just google it--- "Zuma" + "umshini wami" I expect you to remove this comment though as you have with others that point this fact out and give links!!
pjmr71 4 years ago 3
Deceptive reasoning and self-deception do not result in a correct answer. Just review your own words and verify the source.
Mtimkhulu 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Go back to africa you dumb ass. Why do you live in a white country if you feel so strong about defending the circus animals in SA. Freeking idiot!!!! Eish!
BlouBulUSA 4 years ago
you are the idiot.
rasaldo 4 years ago
man you take ages to get to the point, were you stoned when you made this video?
moocdo 4 years ago
its called presenting a reasoned argument, something you are obviously not well versed in.
mzimb 3 years ago
above comment for moocdo
mzimb 3 years ago
The maths are simple. The mines had to shut down for three days at beginning of February. Cost to the economy--about US$600 million per day.
The rest of industry was effectively on a four day week--cost to the economy, about 6% of growth per annum ( meaning -2% growth, )
Damage already done. Cannot be recovered--about 1500 jobs to go from AngloPlats alone--probably 8000 -10000 jobs this year.
GAPTECH 4 years ago 3
You are right and there is no reason to be in this kind of situation. I personally don't understand how we ended here in the first place. Energy is computable in terms of our needs and cost even many years down the road. We shouldn't have been in this situation and maybe we are being sabotaged here i.e. paying for our strides in building an egalitarian society.
Mtimkhulu 3 years ago
Being a mathematician how many years do South Africa have left now that there are regular power cuts that in turn effects the economy
bonkInc 4 years ago
How many year does South Africa have left before...what? Please clarify. Your problem is not purely mathematical but is very much economical and that requires an economist. The energy crisis poses a threat to the economic growth although the top rating agencies say there is no reason to panick for now. Eskom oversold energy to African countries and ignored its main motherland and now we suffer the consequences. What do you think?
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
I think SAcans are paying for poor planning of the power echelons in this instance and so many others, such as health care, crime management, battling corruption. The country will never be able to function as long as you have greedy baboons pulling the strings from the top
ps. "baboons" is not used to refer to race - just to very stupid people - any racially related similarities are coincidental
GENLdelaREY 4 years ago
Dear GENLdelaREY are you actually a baboon yourself? How do you know about baboons unless you are one of them?
Mtimkhulu 3 years ago
I am actually an animal lover and conservationist, I enjoy observing baboons as I find their near human behaviour quite amusing.
GENLdelaREY 3 years ago
you are the most interesting person i have ever listened to. your a great man and i look forward to more of your wisdom
dinobravo420 4 years ago 2
Your positive comments are appreciated. Thank you and I will be working on more videos.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Pfft! So what makes your view on this credible?
streetemail 4 years ago
Sawubona mfewthu. Ngiyajabula uthi ...
My Zulu fails me now. Glad to hear this explanation posted here.
Sala Kahle
ricko1111 4 years ago
Sawubona mfowethu. Your Zulu is great. Your comments are appreciated. I particularly like your good faith attempt in expressing yourself in the Zulu language and are doing a superb job at that.Keep up the good work.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Mr "M" I'll get to my tagged video as soon as possible but I'm going through a bit of sticky wicket at this time...thanks in advance for your patience.
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
Take your time ShiekUrBooty and we shall appreciate it when it comes. Someone who owed me money for a long time eventually paid me back and made this comment "money is good anytime". So anytime you have it ready we shall appreciate it. This goes to others as well who plan to honour us this way. Siyabonga. Many thanks.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
thank you brother...I see you put "Siyabonga"
Thank you very much, "Siyabonga" back to you! :0)
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
by the way, what is "Siyabonga"? :o)
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
See above.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
You are most welcome. Siyabonga means thank you. In a more literal translation it means "we are grateful" using plurality. That's because Zulus of long ago lived as part of the collective and so you could only express yourself as the collective and not as an individual under our modern capitalist society. The singular form is "Ngiyabonga" meaning I am grateful. A convoluted explanation.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
We are grateful! Thank you.
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
You are most welcome. Emile Durkheim once talked about "conscience collectif"
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
I am novice studier of "social contract theory", which I think I think may be related.
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
This is an interesting perspective and Thomas Hobbs was such a thinker. This puts you up there with the great thinkers. On the other hand since social contract implies social agreement, it goes without reason that your prior input is fundamental to the contract gaining its legitimacy. Great thoughts.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Theres no point in discussing the meaning of the Umshini Wami words. If youre not part of a Zulu culture you wont understand it as they do...they see it as a happy song in order to provoke & encourage some people in the hope that they will win the next vote. Look the country is a complete fuck-up anyway since mandela has left...and it will keep going down the drain. Let them drown in their own current doings and their future sorrows. Nothing can save that country anymore...
Po10ccc 4 years ago
I sense a deep hurt in you. have you lately visited your beautiful motherland South Africa? I was there not too long ago and was imbued with the natural physical beauty and the ability of the ordinary people to transcend the ravages of crime to enjoy the unspoken beauty of the land. One of the places I enjoyed was the coast of Port Elizabeth. Nothing compares. The Waterfront in Cape Town was like the cherry on the ice. Give them time.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
I agree it remains a country with beautifull and georgeous people and the best picturesque landscapes. I am a very lucky man for growing up there. I have nothing against the people as I form part of the 12 nations. I love the people and its the occasional (too many) criminals that spoil this for those who'd like to move forward. The goverment dont look after their people and only do it for corrupt personal gain. It remains a lovely place...
Po10ccc 4 years ago
I like that optimism in you and in good time we must overcome the security concerns that face everyone. There are lots of hardworking people within the government trying to make a difference but on the other hand reading about some who fail to live up to the stringent standards of serving others is regrettable and discouraging. All that being said siya phambili - forging ahead. Your points are understandable. Many thanks.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
were can i get a full english translation of this song
plgahan 4 years ago
This is why I thought that if Mr. Zuma released an album he would do well. I am not sure where you can find the full text of the song. If I come across one (not making promises) I will pass it along unless if the gods visit me at night to do the translation.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
what the heck...Doesn't really matter does it? Whatever will be will be.
britsie111 4 years ago
You shouldn't easily give up like that. Remember in the jungle you can't give up. You must be strong and determined to preserve your survival to the end rain or shine.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
That's the rumour going around, and its bloody scary. Surely you can understand if I'm trying to hear other people's opinions? I can't believe that it is true, this country has its problems but we're working on that. I just wanted your opinion.
britsie111 4 years ago
Hello Britsie111 I did look at the Google search; circulating rumours discounted by Police Commissioner Sally de Beer as scary mongering that when Mandela dies Blacks will attack and kill Whites. It's regrettable that Whites are easily spooked by these unfounded stories. Given the same circumstence I would be scared off too and Whites are understandably spooked however unfounded. Opportunists are preying on these natural fears.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Oh believe me I'm far from giving up. Thanks for taking the time to look into these rumours, and for understanding whites' fears. But..the majority of white people who heared this story believe firmly that it is just that...a story. We've come a long way from apartheid, and even though there's still a few issues, the majority people of my generation are positive about the future of this beautiful country.
britsie111 4 years ago
Being strong and true is paramount to survive in the jungle. Yes there is a lot of goodwill in the South African society. I was shocked by those rumours because they can spook anyone. What the South African administration needs to do right now is embark on an aggressive economic policy to eradicate extreme poverty. This is where the Betrayal of democracy will ensue unless definitive steps are taken. South Africa is doing a superb job and I respect Mr. Thabo Mbeki for visionary economics.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
right on.
Government is like many of those big charities. They take in money one way or another and only 10 percent of that money is used to help people who are supposed to be served by government, the blood suckers.
If govt and the private sector can move in a positive direction toward improving the economy and societal issues, then almost all will fall into place.
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
Economic solidarity between the private enterprise and the public enterprise would benefit the common folk at least by removing stonewalling which stands in the way of progress. instead of wasting resources competing against each other now they become engaged in collaborative competition.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Well said. Too bad that will NEVER happen. =(
SirAlfredSourcock 4 years ago
yahoo search uhuru sa....you'll see what I'm talking about. above top secret. again I'm not saying this is true, I just really want to know what your opinion is on this. thanx alot
britsie111 4 years ago
hi im from sa, and lately theres been wild stories flying around, about uhuru aka night of the long knives...im white, and not racist. i wasnt part of the apartheid, so why is it that i must live in fear for me and my children, about something that i didnt do wrong?
britsie111 4 years ago
Dear britsie111 your commentary is appreciated. I checked your channel but there is nothing there about you. You have no history and as so I have no way of corroborating what you are saying. I will give you the benefit of doubt and take you at your word. So be honourable and don't let me down. I don't believe anyone should be punished for what they didn't do otherwise there's no fairness there.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Hi Mtimkhulu I have nothing on my channel, because Ive only joined youtube yesterday.I'm not saying that I believe all these stories, I can't imagine that it really could happen.I've never been a racist and I firmly believe in equality, seeing that God made everyone.What the apartheid regime did was very wrong,I know that.But I can't see why the next generations must suffer because of it.Google this and you'll see the stories.
britsie111 4 years ago
Googling South African stories is that Black South Africans are effectively absent from those Google results. The last research I did about Blacks in internet connectivity in South Africa was less than 1% and most of those connected were through their employement which does not allow free expression. South African Whites controll and dominate the media as you know and so Googling is no comfort.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
ok....so you're saying that its not true. fine by me
britsie111 4 years ago
It's better for you to make a specific comment on a specific issue so that we can deal with that. I don't want to be sent on a wild goose chase.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
ok so I'll do that...do you think that the black people of sa will kill all the white people after Madiba dies?
britsie111 4 years ago
I don't believe Black people of South Africa will engage in some ethnic cleansing of their White brothers and sisters. There is no basis for that. However what we need to do as a society is eradicate poverty because we have already seen these unacceptably high levels of crime that need to be rooted out. Some of the things we hear about are beyond my comprehension. What poses a threat to the democracy of South Africa is extreme poverty in more than 50% of the population.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
and yahoo????
britsie111 4 years ago
Mtimkhulu
I find it funny how you can object to outside opinions, but your opinions and insights in the matter are made out to be total and legitimate truths.
But I guess that is rightly what an opinion is and you are granted yours.
Consider this opinion of mine.
pyproker 4 years ago
I have no objections to others' opinion as a matter of fact I encourage discussion. What is not acceptable and I have zero tolerance for are racist, sexist, vulgar epithets. I don't believe in evangelizing and converting racists because that is doomed to fail. I only share ideas with those that reciprocate respect, honour and ideas in an open-minded way. You have nothing to fear if you are devoid of profanity.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
I can completely understand why black South Africans would be signing Umshini Wami in the past, but in 2008, it's inappropriate. Most of the white bigots have gone to Europe or Australia. The Afrikaners in South Africa today are trying to get back in tune with the continent and their neighbors. Hopefully Zuma soon sees this and comes to his senses.
TheMann2000 4 years ago
Umshini Wami has nothing to do with violance. The reliable way of gauging freedom is the economic wellbeing of the oppressed. If they continue to live under extreme suffering in an affluent society then we know that racial oppression persists via economics. The reason for apartheid was economic control.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
On all of that I agree, but that takes time to fix, and in this day and age you can't just take from the rich to give to the poor, or the rick are gonna get the heck outta there. Economic growth, the policy that Mbeki and Mandela took, is the way to go - because then everybody benefits.
TheMann2000 4 years ago
I couldn't agree more hence this is the policy of the government. What is being reevaluated is how far it has benefited everybody and whether any adjustments are overdue to ensure that.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Hi, there. Check out the following link my friend. Joseph Zuma himself has admitted it was a song about a machine gun. So have other ANC members who believe the song is inappropriate now---- it was and is a fighting song--- time does not change meaning!
usuk66 4 years ago
Please provide a specific evidence of what you are saying. This channel is not based on hearsays or suppositions but factual evidence.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
However,
Trying to discuss something worthwhile, I would like to know what you think about a southern africa bloc. I.e. using a single currency; holding presidential elections for each country concurrently to help facilitate a sort of peer review (post Mugabe); rotating heads of central banks and limited to 5 year terms.
I feel this could maximize resources, minimize graft, and minimize european and asian exploitation.
What's your take?
lionzion22 4 years ago
There is already an organization SADC (Southern African Development Community) which started in 1980 (same year Zimbabwe became independent from the colonial Britain) as SADCC with nine countries but now has 14 member countries. One such member Congo is being assisted heavily by South Africa (formerly assisted militarily by Zimbabwe, Namibia) to avoid civil war.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
That is a great idea, and furthermore it can be a currency backed by GOLD, which Africa has plenty of.
Shevlane 3 years ago
Mtimkhulu--nice beads ;)
However, I woul dnot waist much energy on this reindeer fellow. As I've said before, he is highly transparent and is just a relic of the old guard in SA. It's like trying to discuss the capital asset pricing model with a 5 year old....they just won't get it.
lionzion22 4 years ago
Thanks about your compliments. Even though I am North American, I continue to be the loyal son of the African soil.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
mtimkhulu said that his neck of the woods is the evnvy of the world...that is true. It will come later...but it is true. I bet that president Putin, Mushariff or Ahmadinejad knows it.
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
If the song just refers to a political machine - can you maybe clarify why hundreds of Zuma supporters are running aroung with wooden replicas of assault rifles with the words "Umshini Wami" emblazoned on the butt of these? It is a joke that somebody that is still facing massive corruption charges could be the next president. Banana republic here we come.
GENLdelaREY 4 years ago
GENLdelaREY if take a look at Zuma's supporters photos you will notice that the people with wooden replicas are very few maybe 1 or 2? Where have you seen "hundreds of Zuma supporters are running aroung with wooden replicas of assault rifles"? This shows that the majority are singing in support of a political machine which they feel has been taken away from them.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
this just show that they either did not have time or wood to make "guns". I have been to a few of Zuma's rallies because of my work and I have seen hundreds of these weapons. Also I saw alot of dancing simulating a firing position.
GENLdelaREY 4 years ago
that is sad.
In my country, we don't fake wooden rifles with "umshini wami" on them. We have real rifles and the "wami" is implied.
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
In the new South Africa if you make yourself the enemy of the government they will arrest you which is why we should all be peaceful law abiding citizens.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
GendelaRey is racism is a term reserved purely for the benefit of the weaker races. I.e. it's impossible for blacks to be racist towards whites. So a black can run around with wooden AK47 singing the Machine gun song, however if a white dressed up as a boer commando, & rode a horse into Pretoria there would be a fuckin outcry. Or Blacks can have channel called BET (Black Entertainment TV) but if whites launched a similar channel called WET the blacks would have a fuckin baby.
RSAJones 4 years ago
Why spend so much energy trying to justify your views about racism? It's stressful to strenuously advocate a viewpoint that is not shared by the free people of the world. If you keep your views private then at least you don't have to try that hard.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Its funny I have been battling with my racist views for a while, which are effecting me in a negative way. If I met you I would have nothing against you personally. Its not okay for black people to do certain things that offend other races, just purely because of events like apartheid. Personally I think the old SA flag & Umshini Wami should be banned as they are both offense to some South Africans. This is in the spirit of reconciliation & moving forward.
RSAJones 4 years ago
In order to reconcile and move forward, the mistakes of the past have to be rectified adn acknowledged.
It would be very convenient for poor blacks in South Africa to just "forget and move forward" for those who have benefitted from that system wouldn't it though?
lionzion22 4 years ago
To help you understand this using your own example...blacks in america have BET because whites have CBS, NBC, MTV, ABC, FOX, and myriad other channels that cater to their thoughts and wishes on cable (satellite).
So blacks will just attain and own their own channel and not "have a fuckin baby" because whites have theirs.
It is only outright ignorant discrimmination that us blacks "have a fuckin baby" about.
lionzion22 4 years ago
I understand what you are saying. Probably a bad example on my behalf. I just wish in SA, that people could realise that certain symbols which are offense to blacks and others that are offense to whites should both be avoided. It just feels that white people have to tip toe around black people's feelings, however Black people totally disregard white people's feelings. We get the attitude if we don't like it we should leave like we are not South African.
billygee99 4 years ago
I don't advocate "total disregard" for White people's feelings. We all, as members of the human race, must forward without the hangups of race. Some fundamentals have to be in place to facilate this.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
What?? None of the channels you mentioned are catering to the whites. In fact they are all petrified of offending blacks. Thats why CNN's Kyra Phillips has led her viewers to believe that dangling a noose—an impolite and impolitic form of expression—is a hate crime; a black man beating a white man to a pulp—not so much. And I was specifically referring to name chosen for the BET channel not the channel itself.
RSAJones 4 years ago
I don't watch or own a TV and am not familier with Kyra Phillips. BET was formed nearly 30 years ago for Black audience. Today is owned by Jewish people (Summer Redstone) via Viacom same people who own CBS, inter alia. BET targets young urban audience and they are more of a business than anything ideological.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
right on brother........
BrooklynNYC777 4 years ago
Well done, keep up the calm argument approach Mtimkulu.
Mfundza 4 years ago
Mfundza your positive feedback is appreciated. Let's hope that we can inject some civility into this very important discussion. South Africans are ahead of North Americans because they can confront painful issues and talk about them. It is not easy but must be done in order to heal. Your children and my children can all live in peace regardless of race, gender, religion, culture, creed or whatever.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
I agree with both of your posts.
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
SA held its first elections some 13 years ago, and till this day I have never met a black person who acknowledges voting for the ANC in niether the first election nor any since. This is just the way blacks people are, they all talk shit.
FLESH1973 4 years ago
FLESH1973 your restless mind is so spontaneous you are unable to exercise selective judgment. You are still raw at the core and rough on the edges. Your misguided mind betrays you. Your tempestuous soul is raging like a crazy barbarian in the untamed jungle of ignorance. Your undomesticated behaviour makes you afraid of the coming black storm and yet a reaction to the figment of imagination. There is nothing to be afraid of. Exit the jungle and the civilized society will embrace you.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
OK - because you said so my BROTHER.
FLESH1973 4 years ago
FLESH1973 we don't hate you or plan any revenge against you or anyone. We are all brothers and sisters. I appreciate your reconsideration on this issue. Change is not easy but life must go on and we can do this as a graceful people of an extremely beautiful motherland South Africa. There is no country like this on the planet. We are the envy of the world.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
excuse the swearing...but what fucking awesome post! :0)
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
Fantastic! Thanks for posting such an eloquant and intelligent point of view Mtimkhulu.
ShiekUrBooty 4 years ago
Many thanks. Black and White South Africans are brothers and sisters. We have a common destiny and moreover the Afrikaaner have an African mother's maternal instinct and so we are all sons and daughters of the African soil.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Thanks for this video and your view on this subject. It cleared a lot of the issues for me.
swapie 4 years ago
I am glad it helps to enlighten the subject. As more people show interest we will do more high quality videos.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
If the words used to imply violence and death targeted specifically at one race then it is high time the ANC wrote some more lyrics, REGARDLESS of the terrible crimes of the past (and I do believe the regime had to come to an end), white people are the most targeted ethnic group in SA when it comes to violent crime so it's a bit nasty to say the least for the government to sing about killing them.
civilizedperson 4 years ago
ANC does not target White folks nor do they intend to do so. The last time I checked African descendents were the most targetted in Europe, North America by some and god knows where else yet Africans remain disciplined and graceful to coexist with others. Africans love and embrace White folks as brothers and sisters. There is nothing nasty there.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
I never said that the ANC does target white people. I did say that seeing as white people are the most targeted group in SA in terms of violent crime and it is therefor a bit bloody much of the government to sing songs about killing them.
civilizedperson 4 years ago
You are probably referring here to "One settler one bullet"? Nobody sings that today. The person who sang that passed away long ago. No need to be afraid.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
I'm referring to the machine gun lyrics. And judging by the crime statistics (black on white rape in America has increased by a factor of more than 10 since the end of segregation), and the demographic changes happening in all white countries I would say there is ever reason to be afraid for my children and their children because they will be a hated minority who are constantly picked on for the crimes of my ancestors.
civilizedperson 4 years ago
Most victims of crime in South Africa are the Black township residents. You are safer in a car than being a pedestrian. White areas have better defence than townships. I understand the concerns about the past and your children. It's same here in Canada where minority kids are subject to racial slurs. South Africa is better because they confront those issues whereas Canadians find it taboo to talk about racism. So in Canada we suffer in silence.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
There are no machine gun lyrics. Any evidence of your statement? No one rapes a White woman or any woman except for a criminal. You prefer a racist analysis. One reason for apartheid was sexual fear (swaart gevaar). Apartheid Immorality Act of 1950 forbade sex between Whites and Blacks and underwear was used as forensic evidence. You fondly recall those good laws, is that right?
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
sorry, I posted the last comment twice. Just to tackle the second part of your statement. I really think you need to do your homework if you think Africans are the most targeted group western countries. This is just no the case, there is a far higher percentage of blacks attacking whites in every country in which they co-exist than the other way round. If you like I can find the information for you. Africans are not disciplined when it comes to co-existing, think Rwanda 1994.
civilizedperson 4 years ago
In which country do you live? If you hear about police shooting citizens or immigrants, it's usually African descendants i.e. USA and Canada. That is changing though but remains a problem. They say is due to mistaken identity. Somehow Africans look alike. In South Africa White folks marry Black girls and vice versa. So people are now accepting and respecting each other. Rwanda is a collonial problem from Belgium. Are you not hopeful of the future? You can only see the negative?
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
I have been very hopeful for the future. But I have to admit that for hope to continue people will have to bite the bullet and work with the racial differences that do exist. I agree that a disproportionate number of African immigrants are shot, but the reality is that a disproportionate number of them are violent criminals.
civilizedperson 4 years ago
Your reference to "a disproportionate number" reminded me of this poem:
"Disproportionate lines of parallelism
The asymmetrical beauty of trapezium
To conceal their origin in the structure
To conceal indomitable claws like a vulture
Great trapezoid Ndengese's legend
Mathematically aware Ndengese's descendant"
The Trapezoidal Drum.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Atleast blacks sing and not kill. How many blacks died in the hands of boers?I cannot say whites,that would make me ignorant and racist like some of you b.... I lost my father, brothers and sisters but guess what I have forgiven all those involved and moved on, however that cannot stop me from singing the songs of struggle,we sing these songs to remember our fallen heroes like my father.black race what a loving race.I say that with pride as African sister struggling in USA
simokanya 4 years ago
Mtimkhulu - you want some evidence. Here is some:
"A 19-year-old woman was raped after she was kidnapped by a man who wanted to make her his wife, said Eastern Cape police on Sunday.
Captain Jackson Manatha said the 25-year-old man was following the old "Xhosa Thwala Custom, where men would kidnap women and declare them their wives without consent and rape them".
This comes from a black man and it seems he is saying that rape is a cultural thing amongst black xhosa men in SA. Source - news24
RSAJones 4 years ago
It's a criminal offence to commit rape and no society or culture condones this. My heart bleeds for the victim. RSAJones do you honestly believe that "rape is a cultural thing amongst black xhosa men in SA"? News 24 is a White media of the Afrikaaners Nationale Pers that defames Black people in South Africa and says nice things about White people.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Well I certainly hope it isn't however this was not my opinion but a Xhosa man's opinion, and I assume he would know more than me. Unless of course he was misquoted - care to share some in sight into the Xhosa Thwala Custom? I doubt it was simply made up by News24 to discredit black people.
RSAJones 4 years ago
If it has no refference to machine guns, could you explain why Zuma's supporters, outside his rape trial, were carrying wooden machine guns with "Umshini Wami" painted on the side?
Blackholeofintelect 4 years ago
Wooden machine guns are great because they don't shoot. If I became a president I would ban all the deadly machine guns and instead authorize the wooden replicas. This is merely a nostalgic fervor of the anti-apartheid era but definitely no violence.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
In that case, JoeFelice is completely and utterly correct in voicing concern over dual usage of symbols. It would be an incredibly easy thing to do, to turn those who are nostalgic about the anti-apartheid era, from wooden guns used as a show of semi peaceful (as threatening Zuma's accuser wasn't very "nice") support, to real ones. All one would need to do was to imply that there was once again a struggle to be fought.
Blackholeofintelect 4 years ago
JoeFelice motivated the debate to look at the dual meaning. If you have not eaten rough cereal before you get started on baby cereal and when you can stomach that you must graduate to an adult cereal. The political machine is the adult cereal with lots of moral fibre.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
So if I have deciphered your metaohor corectly, the current state of South African politics, is mature and those involved would in no way move toward violent action, becuase they have morals?
Blackholeofintelect 4 years ago
Absolutely! It's not in anyone's interest to engage in violent action. One thing that preempts violence is an intellectual honesty in expressing and dealing with issues. The economically disenfranchised people need to be taken care of. South Africa is beautiful and there is no room for extremists.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
There is a book A Goodbye To My Little Troubles which poetically says "Via neo-apartheid some vilify / Via a sacred blade we fortify". Basically the task of fortifying the foundations of peace is sacred and we shall do this in spite of the forces of reaction. So my brother we are the sons of the African soil and siya phambili.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Mtimkhulu,
Are you based in Canada? if so why?
DaleRoxBoy 4 years ago
I am a South African schooled in Canada. What about you?
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
Pretty much the same as you, South African but working in the UK. Heading back to SA in Feb for two months to see if it still has a future for a pale face like me.
What are your thoughts on SA's future? Do you believe that Zuma can be trusted by the people?
DaleRoxBoy 4 years ago
Why the obsession with "pale face"? I was born under the brutal system of apartheid and yet I have no obsession with skin pigmentation. I love all people. North Americans are not that obsessed. You are giving me a negative rating, because I don't deserve a better rating?
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
I have no obsession with having a 'pale face' and apologies if I offended you. I was merely asking you indirectly if you think that SA has a future for me being a white person brining into consideration our past history and the governments attitude to the reformation process. I would like go back to SA and hopefully give something back to the country that has given me so much but only if I'm wanted there hence the reason for me asking you your valued opinion on Jacob Zuma's imminent presidency.
DaleRoxBoy 4 years ago
Thanks for clarifying. White South Africans must feel at home in South Africa. Some Black South Africans are born in North America or Europe and it would be inhuman if they were told they don't belong. We need you to contribute to the beautiful motherland. What is not acceptable are those neo-apartheid extremists.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
I left SA 6 months ago, was born there and spent 45 years of my life there, My roots are there, my family, the graves of loved ones... How can you say whites MUST feel at home in SA. Feeling welcome in any place can never be an imperative. It can only be an instinctive response to being wanted and quite frankly, whites are not wanted. Your governments policies backed with action is proof of that. I was on the receiving end of that. I left
optixit 4 years ago
It's regrettable that you had to leave your beautiful motherland. Maybe you developed new instincts for where you are now. It happens. I can only wish you well over there but one thing for sure you will feel another instinct to return. I lived most of my life outside but now I feel that instinctive response you talk about. Don't lose heart. Just trust your instincts. Check this book out An African in Greenland.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
You have nothing to fear from the great Mr. Jacob Zuma. He will embrace all South Africans. Yet he is going to be aggressive in the fight against poverty, crime and elitism. The patience of the economically disenfranchised is not endless. It's prudent to open the economy to all South Africans. You have a positive role to pay if you love South Africa. There is no country like South Africa.
Mtimkhulu 4 years ago
I know that there is no country like SA. I was born and lived there for 24 years of my life. Can I presume that you are going to go back to South Africa one day to play a positive role?
DaleRoxBoy 4 years ago