Is a Two-State Solution Still Possible for Israel / Palestine?

[Prunesqualer]

youtube.com/watch?v=1l1kM9ibX1­k

[Ofanoan]

Fine. Then let the Arabs all leave Israel and go live in Arab states, just as Jews driven out of everywhere live in Israel.

[Prunesqualer]

@Ofanoan Hundreds of millions of people have suffered persecution throughout history, through belonging to the "wrong" race, religion, class etc. My hope is that such persecution will one day end.

suggestions like:

"let the Arabs all leave Israel and go live in Arab states"

ie throwing people off of the land they grew up on (ethnic cleansing) , don't seem very helpful.

[avitaletje]

as you say there are 1500000 arabs in israel. why can't 500000 israeli live within the arabs???who wlll move the palestinians from israel??? what kind of rights dose the israeli people enjoy at the west bank of jordan?? and by the way. dose the fatah have any rights at the gaza? why condemn israel only in that evel part o the world?

[avitaletje]

as you say there are 1500000 arabs in israel. why can't 500000 israely live within the arabs???who wll move the palestinians from israel??? what kin

d of right dose the israely people enjoy at the west bank of jordan??

[0xFFF0]

why transfer jews is ok. but transfer arabs is wrong?

the 2 state solution requires transfer of jews frob the arab area, and transfer of arabs from the jewish erea. this is the only way for peace.

[starcatcher2222]

@0xFFF0 So what you are saying then is that the Arabs should leave Judea and Samaria?

[metalic699]

it is wrong to assume that democracy could work everywhere... Look what happened in gaza they elected a terrorist group to lead them .. look at Afghanistan they cant grasp the concept of democracy. However it seems that some of them are smart enough to use our own system against us and destroy us from within.. why use weapons when you could slowly change the rules and flood the country with millions of stone age refugees that will then vote for whoever is more islamic.

[metalic699]

what this gentlemen is suggesting would mean the end of israel because the muslims would outnumber them and create a muslim state democratically.. its never going to happen because Israel is the Jewish State.. why does no one argue the fact that is forbidden for a Jew to live or even enter Mecca ?

[beancube2008]

Outdated ethnics politics from westerners leaved behind causing problem everywhere. We all know ownerships of local resources were being removed in an attempt to prolong obtained power of those failed invaders. If local people's struggle failed to scale those power back to local sovereignty. The struggle will drag on until all outside domination fail because they are expensive. One state solution is the nature of local people. Mass media is selling poison to us for two state solution for profit.

[Prunesqualer]

I think that Israelis are storing up some terrible Karma for themselves.

Sooner or later the house of cards they rely on, the mighty alliances, financial might, the weaponry, will fail (all empires and civilisations do eventually).

They need a change of attitude, and quickly. Sadly I see no sign of that happening, on anything like, a big enough scale.

[7Christian]

I don't know what country you live in but who would U like it if a group of people came to UR country demanding that U and the people MUST divide this land to accommodate US? The Arabs have an abundance of Land. The palestians are just very greedy. Try mapping Israel and see who tiny it is. THEY SHOULDN'T DIVIDE SHIT!!! According to many reseachers Israel is so small it can be walked in ONE DAY. THE US nor any country has any right telling Israel to give up yet more LAND.

[Prunesqualer]

Its not a question of Israel giving up land. The UN partitioned the land into Israel and Palestine in 1948 creating the state of Israel (where no Jewish state had existed for nearly 2000 years) within defined borders. Since then Israel has encroached on the land that was given to the Palestinians. If you strip away the spin of Israels propaganda machine, your left with Israel occupying land that is not legally theirs. A lot more people will sympathise with Israel if she returns to 67 borders.

[Tom101229]

NO they didn't!

The UN Partitioned the land into Israel and Palestine. They partitioned the land into Jewish and Arab states, but those states never declared themselves at that time. The only state to emerge, because it declare so was Israel.

Palestine made no intention to declare it self, because the Palestinians in the 1940's regarded the word, Palestine to be a Zionist invention. They saw themselves as Syrians, not as Palestinians.

This is something new not form the 1940's.

[Prunesqualer]

The Palestinian people havent been given a chance to form their own nation. Arabs in the aria fought on the side of Britain (and thus France the US etc) against Turkey in WWI. They where shamelessly sold down the river by the allies. In 1917 Britain signed the Balfour declaration giving a commitment to enable Jewish immigration and settlement into Palestine (once victory was achieved).

Continued

[Prunesqualer]

In 1918, mission accomplished, Instead of giving the local Arab population the independence, that Britain had enticed them with, the allies carved up the region into mandates, which they could govern, and take resources from. In The British Mandate of Palestine there followed 40 years of Jewish immigration (mostly from Europe and Russia) contributing to the following population trends.

Continued.

[Prunesqualer]

In 1922, the first British census of Palestine showed a population of 757,182, with 78% Muslim, 11% Jewish and 9.6% Christian.

In 1931, a Second British census of Palestine shows a total population of 1,035,154 with 73.4% Muslim, 16.9% Jewish and 8.6% Christian.

In 1945, a demographic study showed that the population had grown to 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups.

Continued

[Prunesqualer]

In 1948 (thanks partly to the activities of Jewish terrorist groups such as the Stern Gang) Israel declared itself an independent state.

Without regard for the Arab population, the United Nations took it upon themselves to recognise this Jewish state. Despite the fact that Jews constituted far less than half the population of the state, Palestine was partitioned and Israel given 55% of the land, including most of the coastal area. Unsurprisingly many of the regions Arabs resented this.

[Tom101229]

And how many out of that 78% is Druze?

[Tom101229]

I know Mandates are the same thing as Colonies. I am a Soviet. I am largely Anglo-phobic.

But you are ignoring the fact that during the 1940's the arab popution regarded the word Palestine to be ZIonistic and rejected it.

[Tom101229]

You are saying that Palestine isn't even a nation? Thank you!

[starcatcher2222]

@Prunesqualer "Where no Jewish state had existed for nearly 2000 years" Also where no Arab state ever existed. "Not legally theirs?" In fact by international law all area west of the Jordan river was set aside as the Jewish national homeland after WWI. "A lot more people would sympathize with Israel if she returns to the 67 borders" The 1949 Armistice line was never an internationally recognized border. I would rather live than have your sympathy after I am dead take your sympathy and shove it!

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 You said:

"In fact by international law all area west of the Jordan river was set aside as the Jewish national homeland after WWI"

This statement is untrue. I suggest you research the Balfour declaration and the relevant League of nations documents (all of which are available on line). They stipulate a Jewish homeland within Palestine. If English is not your first language I suggest you check the definition of "within".

[starcatcher2222]

@Prunesqualer What is your point "Within" ? Within the geographical Territory reffered to as Palestine. I suggest you do some research yourself "A national Home" does mean a sovereign nation. Palestine as a Sovereign nation has never existed and the PA does not have the ability to function as a state, or the desire to apparantly. It continually worsens the Arabs sitution with refusals and wars. Arabs should pay the price for their wars or there will never be peace, negotiations with PLO must end

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 This video is an old posting. There seems little point in "soap boxing" (ie posturing for the sake of an audience). Kindly drop the "them bad, us good" simplistic re-writing of history.

[starcatcher2222]

@Prunesqualer There seems little point in returning to the 1949 Armistice lines when there is noone willing to work towards peace who can exert any sovereign authority in Israels absence. I think you are being very simplistic to believe that Israels presence in Judea and Samaria is the cause of conflict or that conflict will end if Israel leaves those areas. Israel got no sympathy after it withdrew from Gaza why should it repeat a similar mistake?

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 To paraphrase youre comment I would say: "I think you are being very simplistic to believe that Israels presence in Judea and Samaria is [not part of] the cause of conflict"

Hopefully we both agree that a stable peace is desirable. Unfortunately successive Israeli governments have taken the view that: Time is on our side - we can sit on our military superiority and wait for the Arabs to accept our terms. I think eventually this policy will back fire.

[starcatcher2222]

@Prunesqualer It's no more part of the cause than an Israeli presence in Tel-Aviv is according to the Palestinian leadership. The Arabs are preparing for war with Egyptian backing and a stable peace is farther away today than ever a major regional conflagration is in the works one the likes of which hasn't been seen in nearly 40 years, A retreat by Israel to the 49 lines is national suicide, Israel is going to suffer heavy casualties this round as well.

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 You said that "[Israel's occupation of the West Bank is] no more part of the cause than an Israeli presence in Tel-Aviv is according to the Palestinian leadership". I would suggest that this is a rather disingenuous statement. Maybe you can find a few quotes from Hamas officials, over the years, which can be interpreted in this way, but to say that " the Palestinian leadership" ie Hamas and Fatah, take this view goes way too far.

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 As for your statement " The Arabs are preparing for war with Egyptian backing ". I haven’t seen any good evidence which supports this assertion. If anything the Arab states are currently weak due to internal conflict. I suspect you are being exposed to propaganda produced by those who wish to capitalise on the current disarray in the Arab world. Ie start/provoke a war against the neighbouring states whilst they are weak.

[starcatcher2222]

@Prunesqualer You haven't noticed the calls in Egypt to nullify the long existing peace treaty between the Two countrys? You haven't noticed Abbas call for unity with the Muslim Brotherhood spawned Hamas and Egypts plans to reopen the Rafah crossing in violation of it's agreements which will allow a lot of weaponry into Gaza. Egypt is emboldening Hamas into becoming more and more provocative while counting on some kind of Egyptian protection. Please tell me an instance Israel started a war?

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 An instance when Israel started a war?

How about 29th October 1956 (the Sinai Campaign)? Or the six day war 1967 (or are you one of those who deems Arab rhetoric to be an act of war)?

As for Egypt's new found reluctance to act as Israel's prison wardens around Gaza, I wouldn't consider that an act of war (but then I'm not one of the trigger-happy thugs that runs Israel's foreign policy)

[starcatcher2222]

@Prunesqualer The Sinai campaign of 1956 was in response to incursions from Gaza as well as a blockade instituted in 1953 of the straits of Tiran in 1967 Egypt abrogated its agreement and again blocked the waterway. Are you one of those people who don't consider a naval blockade an act of war? You are so hypocritical to be talking about trigger happy thugs while championing Hamas arming itself through the Philadelphi corridor. I am trigger happy Cast Lead ended to soon and needs to be repeated

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 You said "Are you one of those people who don't consider a naval blockade an act of war" LOL that's rich considering what's happening in Gaza.

I'm getting a little sick of these lies. Where have I "championed Hamas" as you claim?

You suggested that Israel should have pushed it's collective punishment in Gaza even further. I hope for your sake there is no such thing as Karma.

[starcatcher2222]

@Prunesqualer You are championing Hamas right now I can't help if you're too hypocritical to realize that. You seem to think Israel who Hamas is at war with has no right to defend itself by limiting their access to weapons. I'm completely comfortable with my Karma. Israel shouldn't have responded so indesicivively a few weaks ago during the last round of rocket attacks. Yes I'm fully awareof the fact that Israel is blockading Gaza while providing it free electricity and allowing in Aid weekly

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 Criticising Israel's policy of ethnic cleansing, expansionism, illegal settlements, collective punishment etc makes me a Hamas supporter? LOL. You might as well say that anyone who opposed Hitler was a Stalinist.

I think it may be better if we stop wasting each other's time. Tootle pip old chap.

[starcatcher2222]

@Prunesqualer "illegal settlements" Article 49 of the UN charter does not apply to an area that was never the sovereign territory of another nation so that illegality is debatable and the only time Israel ever ethnically cleansed an area was when it removed all the Jews from Gaza. You seem to be supporting the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Judea and Samaria. There was no Gaza blockade until Hamas killed off Fatah and supporting lifting a blockade against Hamas is supporting Hamas.

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 Read "The ethnic cleansing of Palestine" by Jewish Israeli historian Ilan Pappe. It's quite an eye opener.

Your opinion on the legality of Israel's settlements appears to be at odds with that of the International Court of Justice (ICJ). Prehaps you would prefer every state to decide unilaterally what is legal and then just fight it out when there's a difference of opinion?

[starcatcher2222]

@Prunesqualer And the (ICJ)s non binding opinions don't really matter to me, International law is the law of treatys and the relevant treatys established the Jewish right to settle in Hebron, Gush Etzion, Bat Ain, Shechem no AUTHORITY since has established legal sovereignty over any of those areas. In the absence of a bilateral peace there is no practical reason to create a Palestinian state, The Arabs west of the Jordan deserve no more than civil and religious rights, not statehood.

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 You said "The Arabs west of the Jordan deserve no more than civil and religious rights, not statehood".

Our positions seem to be too far apart for reasonable debate. Nice chatting. Bye.

[starcatcher2222]

@Prunesqualer It is sad that you seem to believe in creating a 23rd Arab state to be reasonable, You are the type who would have cosidered Hitlers demand for Czechaslovakias Sudetenland to be a perfectly reasonable request. The Palestinian Mandate territory has an arab state ruled by Hashemites why don't you insist as strongly that Palestinians get their state back from these Bedouin usurpers and instead insist on the ethnic cleansing of Jews from areas beyond the 1949 armistice lines?

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 Please read some balanced history books eg The Iron wall by Avi Shlaim (recommended by Benny Morris as "Highly readable… Shlaim has given us the best, most comprehensive and generally fair minded diplomatic history of the conflict between 1948 and 1999 yet published")- then come back and talk.

[starcatcher2222]

@Prunesqualer The iron wall can be removed the minute the Arabs stop murdering jews

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 Please just try and look at things from a different perspective. What are the roots of Zionism, Islam etc in terms of survival strategies?

[starcatcher2222]

@Prunesqualer I do look at the other side, there are a lot of Arabs caught in the middle who are no threat and simply want to live in peace, they unfortunately suffer they've all lost their jobs to Thais and Indians, as a result of the start of the war after Arafat left camp David, Just as their grandparents lost Homes after the Arabs started a war against the Jews before the State of Israel was ever declared. If the Arabs lost as much land as they claim Israel would be the size of Texas

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 Based on the evidence of what you post you do NOT look on things from the other side.

[Prunesqualer]

@starcatcher2222 PS what I am asking for is not seeing things from the "other" side, but from lots of sides.

[Abbadon380]

@Prunesqualer that land is actually disputed fought in the war for survival Isreal wants peace they accept the nation of palestines right to exist but THE plo Dosent they made many compromises including offering 93% of the west bank to palestine but the palestiniaNS ARE fucking stuborn.

[1330sc]

Yeah, i agree!! I was in jerusalem yesterday and I tried to walk to the shops and ended up in the mediterranean sea! So I just jogged back to St Petersburg and had dinner at a cafe. Many researchers said it was a common problem.

[Tom101229]

Actually the Palestinian in the 1940's regarded the word Palestine an invention of Zionism, which means Palestine doesn't exist. It is an invention of Zionism just as such and such anti-Zionist sheik of some Palestinian community had said.

It is purely true. You can actually research this.

[walterfireson]

why is israel still racist?

[7Christian]

Israel is NOT RACIST they just don't want to be in closer proximity to their enemies (HAMAS!!!). Israel is the size of New Jersey they should not have to give up THEIR LAND to accommodate the people (palentians) who decided to elect Hamas as their government. Israel has already given up LAND for Peace and each time their enemies use it as a way of KILLING THEM. WHY DON'T U TRY LEARNING THE FACTS!!!!

[walterfireson]

Israel has no legal claim to that land (that's why its called occupation) yet the Arab Emirate does hold the title deed to the property on behalf of the Palestinian people. According to your bible God's promise to Israel has nothing to do with land (god is'nt shallow) it had to do with freedom. You need to learn your facts and not live in religious fantasies.

[Tom101229]

What makes you think Palestinians have a right to that land, when Israel took that land from Jordan and Egypt in 1967?

[warmperson2007]

What George Bisharat says in fact, is that we have to go 60 years back into History, and start again as if nothing happened in the meantime.

[samuelmorrison]

I want him on a panel with finkelstein

[warmperson2007]

That will be an interesting debate. I believe Finkelstein is for a two-state solution.

[blackiron60]

In effect they would need something like the system they had under the Ottoman Empire: equality and security for both populations, but that was imposed by an imperial power, who is going to impose it now? Who has the will?