Line Upon Line Part 2. Loyalty vs. Honesty

[tattoodfreeek]

I'm so glad that I left, I still believe in Christ, but wouldn't say that I am a Christian. I find it funny that Mormons will go on about people reading anti-mormon literature, but a lot of the time it's the only way of learning the truth

[mrdarrickevenson]

I'm a former Mormon missionary, and I wrote a book defending the Church against anti-Mormon attacks ("The Gainsayers"). Ken Clark was a hypocrite to continue to work for the Church while secretly not believing it. True! However, he did not promise young girls that they and their families would be Exalted "if" they slept with Joseph Smith, as Joseph Smith promised them. He did not have people murdered who got into his way, as DID Brigham Young. Compared to them Ken Clark looks DAMN good! Darrick

[CounterCultureLives]

L.D.S. = L.ie + D.eceive + S.idestepping

[shadow50429]

Hey, cute red headed girl in this video...

Ummm... any chance we could meet sometime and discuss your concerns? I'm single. I like thoughtful women (and people, generally), even if they question my views.

My beliefs would not be half so cherished if I had not questioned them consistently for the past 10 years of my return to activity in the Church. QUESTION EVERYTHING, while humbly acknowledging and seeking help from Him who knows all things.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Hmmm,every human on the earth is a direct ancestor to one female that lived around 160,000 years ago named by scientists as "Mitochondrial Eve." All men trace their ancestry from a man who lived 60,000 years ago named "Y-chromosomal Adam". It would seem that your claims regarding Mormonism just don't seem to get past that sticky issue known as evidence. N. American origins of man,Garden of Eden & Global Floods. Kolob, we have a problem.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[shadow50429]

@ExmormonFoundation

Thank goodness that not all claims (especially those that we need for our salvation) that are not yet proven or even hypothesized in science must wait for science to reach a strong certainty. That would mean nobody has been saved until the scientific "saviors" came along in the late 19th century.

It's clear people of faith use a different epistemology, admitting divine revelation, but they would have to or else God could save virtually nobody who has ever lived.

[ExmormonFoundation]

@shadow50429

No Adam & Eve, no Fall, no Fall, no need for an atonement. No atonement, no need for a blood sacrifice to save us all from the wrath of the bloodthirsty desert tyrant Yahweh, who according to your narrative is ultimately responsible for the whole drama in the first place.

The claims of Mormonism are not supported by the evidence. They never have been, just as Scientology's DC9 shaped spacecraft continue to elude discovery, so do the absurd claims of Smith et al. Evidence is key.

[shadow50429]

@ExmormonFoundation

There are also huge problems with having a problem with "Thou shalt not steal" on the basis that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[ExmormonFoundation]

@shadow50429

Are you referring to the Hammurabi Code which predated your version of the ten commandments? Otherwise, yes, extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence.

[BrotherMichael1000]

@ExmormonFoundation I'm a Christian and I wonder did your experience totally sour you on the idea of God. I've helped many people get away from mormonism and the jehovah witnesses. I've seen a few just reject Theism all together. Is this true for you? Do you not believe in God now because of the lies in mormonism?

[ExmormonFoundation]

@BrotherMichael1000

No, when I left Mormonism I still considered myself a Christian. However, once I had begun to investigate the realities of Mormonism I then used the same skill set to continue to scrutinize the claims of Christianity. Following my studies, my conclusion was that Christianity was just as bogus as Mormonism, it has just been around longer to give it some air of respectability. When the requirements of evidence are set forth the claims of religions fail again and again.

[CounterCultureLives]

@ExmormonFoundation Speaking as a Non-Christian, I have also studied The Bible from the perspectives of objective scrutiny and critical analysis. Actually, there ARE certain parts of The Bible that ARE supported through the sciences, just as the sciences discredit other parts of The Bible. While The Bible is far from inerrant, The Book of Mormon is total fiction.

[shadow50429]

It's why Harvard has had symposiums on the "American Prophet."

Of course, scholarly recognition of historical and cultural contribution hardly proves the truth of something, but it should, at least, show that Joseph Smith asked and answered some questions in a very serious manner, even by the standards of those who study these questions academically.

[shadow50429]

It me, the Church's doctrines and precepts are simply too perfect to deny that it was not inspired of God. It's blasts through darkness as the daylight to the darkest hour of the night.

If Mormonism is a cult, it is the cult of Jesus Christ. I know who I want to be. Even as he is.

[shadow50429]

My study of philosophy has demonstrated to me how consistent LDS doctrine is, much more so than the "traditional God" of mainstream Christianity. While LDS doctrines leaves loose ends (as do all theologies), LDS theology is both more consistent with scripture and the things known about Judeo-Christianity by scholars of ancient religion, as well as more ethically defensible (e.g., the Problem of Evil in philosophy).

[Jeanikins]

@shadow50429 When all else fails, appeal to your own education. Once more for the record; what you know and feel is completely irrelevant to those who actually have studied. The church is a fraud and so are you. Do you have a degree in philosophy, theology? No, I thought not.

[shadow50429]

@Jeanikins

Yes I have a BA in Philosophy, and I have studied it for a long time, mostly theology and political philosophy. Almost all of modern philosophy's objections to mainstream Christian theology either do not hold up with the Church or are partially answered by LDS doctrine, which is why scholars are increasingly impressed with so-called "Joseph Smith's theology"--really God's theology given through the instrument of Joseph.

[shadow50429]

Unfortunately, so often it's easily demonstrable FACTS that ex-Mormons have to deny to continue to believe what they believe. It's an act of willful ignorance.

[exmoagogo]

@shadow50429

If you search "I'm sorry I knocked on your door" on Youtube you'll find ex-Jehovah's Witnesses apologizing for waking you up on a Saturday morning.

Comments on the videos by believing Jehovah's Witnesses sound exactly the same as comments by believing Mormons on ex-Mormon videos.

[shadow50429]

Very interesting that they should put Southerton on here. Southerton left the Church because of folk doctrine about the Book of Mormon teaching of an uninhabited Western Hemisphere colonized solely by Lehi's family. So sad to leave the Church for (1) not knowing what constitutes doctrine and (2) not knowing what the scriptures contain. Unfortunately, even when so many ex-Mormons are objectively and conclusively rebutted, they simply ignore any disconfirming evidence against their conclusion.

[Jeanikins]

@shadow50429 You seriously need help.

[shadow50429]

@Jeanikins

You seriously need to stop propping up your beliefs with ad hominem appeals to emotion, as you just did.

[shadow50429]

Chemistry is wrong. Quantum physics doesn't explain everything. I feel "very disturbed" about quantum physics.

I've heard these "arguments" before. Who are the rational people, again?

The Church is true, regardless of people's feelings. If you look only at possible objections to anything, you can be talked out of anything. If you look at the arguments from both sides, and rely upon God, you will know. This takes some time sometimes.

I have seen it all. The Church is still true.

[Jeanikins]

@shadow50429 But did you see it all with your spiritual eyes or the eyes of rational thinking? The church is true because you believe it to be so. You will never convince anyone of your own personal feelings about the LDS Church - they are not relevant are they? I believe in unicorns and in my heart I just know they are true. How hard will it be to try to convince others? Hard! So I won't try, I'll keep my silly beliefs to myself.

[shadow50429]

@Jeanikins

I have a degree in Philosophy precisely because I LOVE rational thinking. Revelation, as the Prophet Joseph Smith has taught, requires "constant mental exertion." God requires his children to approach him with real intent--meaning real exertion.

When I see ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons (or both) consistently failing to get even the simplest facts straight about THE CONTENT OF DOCTRINE (not to mention what doctrine is true), it's the critics of the Church who become suspect.

[LDStothecore]

@shadow50429 Amen.

[LDStothecore]

One man on the first part said he realized the LDS church was man made like all the other churches. Personally, I would never go to a church made by man.

[ExmormonFoundation]

@LDStothecore

"Personally, I would never go to a church made by man." Hmmm, who started the Mormon Church? I could get this wrong, but as one who no longer has the constant guidance of the Mormon Holy Ghost, but wasn't it Joseph Smith jr.? Was he not a man? Hmmm, this is quite a conundrum you've got there.

Please research. Mormonism is not what it claims to be.

[LDStothecore]

@ExmormonFoundation The LDS church was started by Jesus Christ.

[ExmormonFoundation]

@LDStothecore

And you know this how? Do you have any evidence to support this claim or are you just trusting what someone told you? You came by this "knowledge" how? Born into it? Converted to it? Warm fuzzied it? But did you ever investigate it? Probably not.

Just remember as you investigate, Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

It is not what it claims to be. It is a fraud and fabrication.

[LDStothecore]

@ExmormonFoundation I have done plenty of research and none of the anti claims hold any water. Also, I have the witness of the Spirit. You all could have it too, if you are humble.

[LDStothecore]

@ExmormonFoundation I know by the power of God. You will never know yourself if you don't humble yourself.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Ok, since you know the Mormon Church is "true" that means that Mormon claims are also "true" correct? Fine. Does our sun get its light from Kolob as stated in the BoA & considered by your branch of Mormonism as scripture? Was there really an Adam & Eve despite the DNA & anthropological evidence which shows that humans are not descended from two people in North America? Are blacks & Ameri-Indians truly descendants from cursed peoples with dark skins despite the evidence to the contrary?

[exmoagogo]

@LDStothecore

Did Jesus tell you this in person or just in your head?

[LDStothecore]

@exmoagogo The Spirit.

[exmoagogo]

@LDStothecore

You know, there are Muslim videos on Youtube that show spots on a cow that

spell "Allah". To them this is proof that Islam is the one true religion.

Of course, you would think that's down right silly now wouldn't you. Then again, they think you are silly too.

[LDStothecore]

@exmoagogo Although I don't believe what Muslims believe, I do respect them for their faith and I respect their right to believe what they do. I will not criticize them for believing differently than I believe.

[exmoagogo]

@LDStothecore Of course you won't criticize the Muslims for seeing "Allah" spelled on the side of a cow because the same standard would then be applied to you.

When you engage in irrationality you can't exercise the privilege of pointing it out in someone else.

And by your standards there is nothing to distinguish your beliefs from theirs or Scientologists', no matter how strongly you feel about it. Your feelings are a rubber check on a bankrupt account. It won't pass here.

[LDStothecore]

@exmoagogo You are a fool.

[exmoagogo]

@LDStothecore

I know it hurts the Mormon ego to be thrown on the same pile as Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists but hey, you'll just have to tough it out. They don't like being compared to you either.

They "feel" that they are right and you are wrong. You "feel" that you are right and they are wrong. God tells them that you are wrong. God tells you that they are wrong.

Who is the fool?

[LDStothecore]

@exmoagogo Doesn't hurt me at all. I respect anyone who has a strong conviction and belief and actually practices what they believe. We all have the same right to believe and worship as we see fit.

[exmoagogo]

@LDStothecore Are you pretending not to get it just to save face?

All of your verbose declarations about Mormonism being true and deeming ex-Mormons as fools simply because you say so adds up to diddly squat.

The Great LDStothecore has spoken! So let it be written, so let it be done! Take that to 7/11 with a few bucks and you can get a Slurpee.

You are armed with hot air and your fellow travelers in make believe sound just like you. Wouldn't you like to be taken seriously?

[LDStothecore]

@exmoagogo It's sad because you don't know what you are talking about and you have not had the witness of the Spirit of God.

[exmoagogo]

@LDStothecore Spare me your unctuous condescension. Are you so bewitched by your own sense of Mormon superiority that you fail to see the same psychosis at work in your religious competitors? Or is looking in that mirror a little too frightening?

[exmoagogo]

@LDStothecore See your last post?

I'll raise you my last post. Whadda ya think of them apples, huh?

[MorrisonEnterprise]

3:29 bike fail

[MorrisonEnterprise]

Is the available on DVD? Will pay ca$h!

[LDStothecore]

@MorrisonEnterprise Why?  It's bunk.

[ratm2112]

GREAT video !!!

[orlovna2]

LOYALTY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN TRUTH.

(That really sums up what LDS is all about)

When Brigham Young was indicted for murder (in the MMM), by the then non-mormon presence, in SLC, after Brigham was ousted, as Governor of Utah Territory, the Church members--almost to the man--closed ranks around him, to "protect him": thus, in effect, all becoming "accessories to murder", by giving him aid and comfort.

(THIS IS ABOUT AS DAMNABLE AS IT GETS, concerning "loyalty trumping truth")

[orlovna2]

At 0.38, who is Robert Oaks? Does the church have nepotism still going on, like that? Even that Hinckley--only a short while before he died--appointed both his sons (a much older one and his youngest), to high positions, in the Church. I guess Hinckley "looked around, and saw none better qualified than his two boys!"

(That reminds me of Brigham's presenting two of his own progeny, to be accepted, into the Quorum of the Twelve. Brig died 6 weeks before he could carry that plan out.

[eam137]

Yes, the mormons don't have a clue about the real miracle of forgiveness.

[awolLDSasap]

Truth is a deadly concept for Mormons. Historical truth = mormon persecution.

[Suzyqalso]

I'll be dead before my family has a chance to shun me for 40 years. And they don't really "shun" me. But in subtle ways every day I am reminded that I am a "fallen soul" to them. I float over it most of the time, but it's a heart-prick that sits there all the time -- that I no longer "measure-up" -- to my parents, my siblings, my children, and my grandchildren.

[orlovna2]

@Suzyqalso

A person sometimes wishes that they could sit down and have a "fireside chat", with all of their children and grandchildren, and be given a respectful chance to help them see that "dissing you" is not the right thing, to do.

And, to "clear the air", with them, about some basic fallacies and falsehoods, within the church.

[eam137]

I was a fifth generation mormon who left in 1970. See my testimony of leaving mormonism on youtube: Edy Meredith

Testimony. Even 40 years later, my family still shuns me.

[ExmormonFoundation]

@eam137

Thanks for stopping by.

All the best, -EMF

[awolLDSasap]

@eam137 It's always nice to hear from an apostate who found the truth. Sorry to hear about the shunning, but you know how the members have been taught to hold a grudge for all time and eternity.

[rcolombiahoyos]

There's is this girl her name is Natalie. She was in my 136th Ward and I even went on a date with her. Does anyone have any contact with her. I really do appreciate her views regarding Mormonism (she was the one that stated that she went to BYU and she enjoyed her first year but started questioning the church because of her reading).

[ExmormonFoundation]

Hi there, we have not had any contact information from her since the filming of the documentary. I'm sorry I could not be more helpful.

All the best, -EMF

[ToolFan68]

10 Signs of a CULT

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

[ToolFan68]

10 Signs of a CULT (cont.)

6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

9. The group/leader is always right.

10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

[Rusikre]

Why does LDS INC. delete temple rituals and then never even tell their next generation what they were. Sociopaths and crooks, you could at least give them a heads up, it's not like no one else knows.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Cults such as Mormonism are not about truth and accurate information. To disclose such would lessen and eliminate their control over their members and future converts. The "milk before meat" concept which is at its core dishonest is very effective and keeping the sheep content and in compliant silence.

Having the courage to step up to the plate of integrity and embrace truth regardless of personal cost is lacking in the cowardly Mormon leadership & many Mormons. Truth matters, it really does.

[JediMormon]

The "milk before meat" is a Biblical concept, and is taught by the Bible. "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able." (1st Corinthians 3:2). Makes sense that the Lord would not give us all knowledge at once, for what knowledge he does give us, He expects us to follow. Thus, milk before meat, line upon line, here a little and there a little, in His wisdom, not giving us more than we are able to handle at one time.

[ExmormonFoundation]

And what sort of "meat" should be held back? Underwear which protects one from the power of the destroyer? The Endowment? Blood Atonement? The reason for these and other absurd doctrines not being disclosed upfront is because folks would never buy the Mormon product. It's the same reason why Scientologists don't disclose to the believer that Xenu is the Galactic Overlord & humans are filled with Thetens until they have paid their money & submitted to Scientology leadership.

Truth matters.

[hondakawa83]

This is sad to me, whoever is lds, dont argue with them, love and help

[JediMormon]

honda...wise advice, but I fear that it falls on deaf anti-Mormon ears. These guys revel in contention. They are not truly interested in loving or helping Mormons. Sad, but factual. I've had dealings with anti-Mormons almost on a daily basis for literally years. They seem to glory in playing God and taking it upon themselves to determine who is going to hell (if you're a Mormon, you automatically qualify in their eyes), and who isn't. It's sad, it's pathetic, and it's definitely not Biblical.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Uh, we are a non sectarian organization which does not endorse any particular religious persuasion or point of view. So if you want us to condemn you to hell, you'll have to find another group of exmormons. We are here for support for those who are leaving and making their way out of the Mormon maze.

I would highly recommend the following site to aid you in your continued studies:

MormonThink d o t c o m

All the best in your studies young Padawan.

[annpetasupporter]

Actually, JediMormon, in my experience, all the people I've known who have left mormonism have been told by their family members and mormon friends that they will go to hell because of their leaving. My aunt was actually seriously sick and was being told by her mormon friends and family that it was because she was leaving mormonism and god was punishing her for it. I think that is absolutely horrible and definitely not what jesus would do.

[djwright44]

I disagree with Grant's statement that people become bitter because they were "lied to". There were no lies in the church or it's teachings.

There is no "cult tactics" used by the LDS church. As evidenced by these folks, they left the church, have continued their lives and speak freely. To disagree with the doctrine is just fine: but to call it a cult really sinks to the Ed Decker mentality.

[ExmormonFoundation]

A brilliant response by a cult member. Funny how similar your response is to those who defend the JW's, the Scientologists, the Moonies etc. Everyone else is in a cult, yet the Mormons are different. Please for the love of Elohim, pull your head out and do some research. Why not start at mormon think d o t c o m to aid in your Mormon studies adventure.

All the best in your continued studies, it's not what it claims to be.

-EMF

[djwright44]

I do read and while yes I have come across some things I do not understand, it does not impact "the big picture".

Perhaps you can explain away all the mysteries of life, God, etc. etc. I cannot nor do I need that.

[Rusikre]

Yeah, people only leave the church because they are offended, sinful, faithless, and/or prideful in their own wisdom. They never leave because of logic, critical thinking, and because the people around them are sociopaths to black sheep. sigh.........

[HaykakanBanak]

Yeah, right. Sure.

[bmflix]

All you people talking about dod. There is no god. There is just Science. Nobody can prove the existence f god. It is just a delusion.

[Suzyqalso]

Sibelius 19,

You would have to go much deeper than these videos and be willing to spend some time with authenticated written facts before you dismiss what other people have found. Just because you think you're not seeing it here doesn't mean that it's not available.  Believe me, it's available. The preponderance of evidence is what prompted my eventual exit from the church after 50+ years as an active, dedicated Mormon - and 20+ years of researching.

[Sibelius19]

So, are we talking about the Veiw of the Hebrews and stuff? These things have alarmed me for some time. My skepticism is not with Jesus Christ, but with J. Smith, and it always has been. But I am not forced to do anything. I am 25 and I haven't gone on a mission. I have never been in the Temple, and I have not even received the Melkezidek Priesthood. I have had virtually no pressure. I feel closer to Chirst. It is all I know. So, in a way, "spinning facts a certain way, etc" these thing show...

[Sibelius19]

"Spinning facts a certain way in order to get others to join" shows his character. I have never been urged to spin facts. It is our very unwillingness to believe in Morminsim which causes us to spin facts. We feel ashamed of it. We want to spin facts when we are afraid that others will laugh at what we "believe" This does not prove Morminism true, but our minds can trick us toward the positive or the negative. We can fool oursevles either way. Pride can take us anywhere.

[ExmormonFoundation]

I think you are on the right path already. Take your time, research, research, research.

A major issue for many Exmormons is dealing with the deceptions and outright lies of Mormonism. I would suggest you watch the presentation "Lying for the Lord" found on our main page. See if the claims made in that presentation have merit or not, and then perhaps that will lead you to further research about the subject of Smith being trustworthy.

If truth really matters, you'll find it. All the best.

[Sibelius19]

We must think critically and skeptically about things, but we must also know that there are many imperfect people within any Church, who may seem to go against the very things they should be standing for. I have still not heard any specific examples of highly contradictory findings which show the Church is a fraud. They only state that they found it. It seems like a Catch 22, but when we lose the Spirit of Truth by following things which are leading us down the wrong path we may believe anything

[ExmormonFoundation]

Well, where would you like to begin? What must be true in Mormonism for your testimony to be valid?

You say you are critical, yet you are really not. You want Mormonism to be true, so your investigations will only lead you to information from fellow believers to confirm your belief. Objective study is in order if you want to assess the validity of the claims made by Mormonism.

May I suggest MormonThinkdotCom a great site run by active Mormons. All the best in your studies!

[Sibelius19]

The same can be said to individuals seeking to disprove the Church--they will find things which confirm their desired belief. That's why I am skeptical, I do not want to be duped either way, and I don't trust only my own powers in coming to an ultimate truth. I am still a believer in God, if I am not in the authority of my Church. It is not a question of my beliefs, it is a question of how one goes about discovering and uncovering the truth.

[ExmormonFoundation]

You are right, that is why you have to do something like this in an objective way. That is why I suggested you start with something which must be true for your testimony to remain intact. For me it was the BoM. I clinged to Mormonism far longer than I should have simply because the BoM had to be true. So I began to study the claims, the doctrines, the history etc. in an objective way to see if this so called "most correct book on earth" would hold up to honest and open scrutiny.

[ExmormonFoundation]

You also have to trust yourself, something which is not encouraged by the Mormon Church. Take for example a claim made in the BoM about there being an actual tower of Babel. Did this really exist? Is this where the varied languages of mankind originated? Why or why not, and what evidence do we have that can support such a claim? If this is the truth, then the evidence and facts will bear it up, if not, what does that mean for the so called claims of truth?

Keep researching & all the best.

[Sibelius19]

well, this is interesting. I am still a brainwashed member it seems. I am pretty skeptical about things. I must say, I never heard anyone say that "you will never be a good parent if you are not a mormon". These kinds of statements tell me that some of these individuals may have developed the wrong mindset on their own, independent of the "teachings" of the Church. When you are in a group that states that we are to be in the world but not part of the world, it may seem like a horrible cult...

[ExmormonFoundation]

It's easy to take offense & describe yourself as persecuted, but do the claims of your religion stand with fact and verifiable evidence? Mormonism makes many claims which demand empirical evidence to support them.

Take the world wide flood for example, did this actually occur? If not, what does that mean for scriptural accounts & supposed prophetic utterance on the subject?

Keep investigating. If you are truly someone who values truth over being right, you may be surprised by what you find.

[Sibelius19]

these are very true statements, but at the same time we must remember that our wisdom is foolishness to God. Knowledge--or at least what we believe is knowledge--puffs us up. We don't know everything there is to know. Can that be refuted? That is a fact in itself. This is not rationalization either, yet it does NOT prove Morminism true, or Joseph Smith, for that matter. What I'm saying is, "evidence" can be interpreted differentially, almost precisely because we do not know everything...

[ExmormonFoundation]

Well, you are putting yourself into a category where supposedly one cannot know anything. Let me explain. Why would a God such as the Mormon God, give us information which describes the way things are and then give us the ability to discover that the opposite is true? Is this some sort of sick joke? Truth, all truth should be able to come together and verify and validate the claim. Another example, does the Sun get its light from Kolob as it says in the Book of Abraham?

[ExmormonFoundation]

By giving you these examples, you should be able to determine for yourself if the claims of Mormonism are valid by using a rigorous process of examination, observation and research. We can know things, and know a great many things. The very fact that you and I are conversing using the internet & our computers indicates a great deal of knowledge employed for this conversation to exist. The same can be applied in discovering the realities behind the claims of Mormonism. Is it fantasy or reality?

[Sibelius19]

I know that we are aware of a great deal in this world, and I do not disagree there. I was just stating that some explanations are inadequate (on either side) and the ultimate truth may not be known by direct examination of evidence. With things such as Kolob, well, we don't know if that was literal, but it is a good question. I watched all of the "Lying for the Lord videos" and I must say that it was very alarming and my ominous feelings have increased towards the LDS foundation--namely JS.

[ExmormonFoundation]

I agree. We really can't know something 100%, even science never claims such; it just boils down to establishing some sort of solid & reliable foundation. Just keep researching, and then research some more. I'm glad you watched the other series.

I guess the question that requires an answer is "Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?" If the very founder of the "true church" cannot be trusted, how does one accept anything he put forth as valid, real and worthy of our sacrifice?

All the best to you.

[SunshineHelmet]

This is an excellent series, I look forward to finishing it. I feel like i've found an excellent resource of like-minded folks who've had to deal with just how complicated it is to leave what you know is BS. It is really simple once you figure it out (that the church is a total fraud perpetuated to this day). But the psychological restructuring is very complex... LIke the lady in red said "i feel like I missed out on my formative years. I was never allowed to feel ok about finding out who I am

[rotturbrain]

I love you Exmormon Foundation..thank you for helping me stand up for myself and my family and to discover the TRUTH for myself.

[MrNirom]

Spit in the face of Christ and tell him that his reference to the flood that never happened was ridiculous and that he should be ashamed of himself for perpetuating such lies and beliefs. To even acknowledge anything that could not be proven by the great and mighty mankind.. he should have been crucified.. for his teachings were certainly of the devil!

[ExmormonFoundation]

Tsk, tsk. Retreating to testimony again. If Christ, Mohamed, Joesph Smith, David Koresh or Tom Cruise stated that there was a world wide flood, then they would be wrong. Period.

It is not a matter of faith, but evidence Mr. Nimrom.

The evidence shows us that such an event did not occur. Why would God allow us to discover this evidence, and then place contradictory statements in scripture? What kind of deity is this you worship Mr. Nimrom?

[ExmormonFoundation]

Me thinks you are in the throws of cognitive dissonance thrashing against the magical thinking.

I know it is not easy, many of us were once in your shoes. It is not easy to come to terms with evidence which clearly shows our faith to be in error, hence the anger, pain and testimony bearing.

Your retreating from fact, science and evidence does not serve you well my friend. No flat or hollow earth, no floods or light borrowing suns.

All the best to you in your studies.

[MrNirom]

So what religion do you profess to be true.. as by your comments.. one can not even rely on the Bible as truth as long as Man proved it wrong. Like.. man has never been wrong in the past. You put your faith greatly in man don't you?

[1MoNoMo]

I'll answer "which church".

If there is a church that worships God and makes NO CLAIMS touching this real, physical world we live in, that cannot be shown to be REAL WORLD claims, then THAT is a good religion. It is those like Mormonism, that make absurd, real world claims that cannot be substantiated

with real world evidences, ought to be summarily dumped back into the dung heap from whence they came.

If Moism made no absured, unproven CLAIMS, there'd be no problemo.

[1MoNoMo]

As to "putting "your faith...in man".

It is YOU that are doing that very thing.

Rationalists do NOT put their faith in a single man as you do with JosephsMYTH.

Rather, we WILL put our trust in an idea that has been shown to be true that MANY disparate "men (and women)" have researched thoroughly and agree on. Even THEN we are not 'married" to that idea such that our whole world will crumble if that idea is shown to be incorrect. YOU, OTOH, DO so with ONE MAN--JosephsMYTH!!

[MrNirom]

Wow.. you people are the kind that needs proof to believe. Sign seekers. Hey.. you need what you need. I don't buy into your world of I have to see it to believe it. I am glad that you have found your "truth". Still.. you evaded my question. Which Church do you worship in? What is the name of that Church?

[1MoNoMo]

Gee! You finally figured that out (proof needed), MrNimrom? Just like the bible says, "PROVE ALL THINGS". If anything, the blind faith, that you are so proud of championing, has been preached against by many, even the LDS.

Which church? I personally am not affiliated with ANY church. They're ALL man-made and bogus, using fear tactics and trancendental blackmail to further their agenda. Were I to "join" any of them I would be an "enabler" of something I don't believe in.

[MrNirom]

"PROVE ALL THINGS". I agree. But it is not by man that proves it to me. It is by "soul contact". It is by the testimony of the Holy Ghost. Man does not know everything God does. He does not understand everything that God is. He does not know everything that God has done. So why would I go to man and ask him? All man can do is convey an idea. To verify the idea is a true one.. one must go to God. When it comes to the Kingdom of God.. God is the goto person. Men explain.. God confirms.

[1MoNoMo]

And give us an example that this means "prove" by HG. If I were to ask you to prove to me that the Catholic Ch. is not God's church, you'd give me a long list. Included in that list may be the sale of indulgences or the baptizing of infants.

[1MoNoMo]

Sign seekers? You mean like Thomas was -- in the "upper room"? He wanted (NEEDED) a sign (that this was Jesus standing before him), so what did Jesus do? Berate him? Excomm him? Laugh at him? NO!! He gave Thomas absolute, factual PROOF--and NO HOLY GHOST involved.

Paul and Stephen likewise. Proofs were common. They were called "gifts". Raising the dead, blind to see, water to wine, walking on water. Where are the gifts that Christ promised would follow the true church, in Mormonism?

[1MoNoMo]

Mormons refer to the story of the Prodigal Son (that never happened). Jesus told the story as a parable. Why is it not possible that he referred to the "parable" of the flood from the OT--that never really happened. With God, all things are possible...

[MrNirom]

So let me get this straight.. the LDS church is the only church who teaches a world wide flood? And becasue for you there is no proof.. therefore.. all is false? Does that sum up what you just posted?

[ExmormonFoundation]

The point is to illustrate that your religion, the supposed ONE TRUE CHURCH teaches doctrines which require evidence. Mormonism is not a metaphorical religion. The flood was real, Adam and Eve were real, the Garden of Eden was real and located near Jackson County Missouri,USA to boot, the Sun receives its light from Kolob, Ameri-indians descended from Jews etc. etc.

These and many other Mormon claims are claims which require evidence, if they are to be considered the truth, real and valid.

[ExmormonFoundation]

In order for your faith to be valid as you and other Mormons claim, then the evidence for these claims should be self-evident, they are the "truth" after all.

So if contradiction is found in these claims, it naturally leads one to question the other claims as well until someone like yourself is forced to retreat to the unassailable realm of the metaphysical wherein no one can prove definitively whether you felt the warm fuzzies or not. You cannot escape the literal claims of your religion.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Even now, you still believe and will continue to do so. I did, and so did countless others like us. We wanted it to be true, and so it was for us, despite the evidence to the contrary. In the end, the self evaluation of honesty and ethic must be presented to oneself. Does honesty matter? Does fact and verifiable truth matter? Or does my ego, pride and certainty blind me from what is so plainly seen, yet not easily recognized.

Don't obfuscate. These claims must be true or it is a fraud.

[MrNirom]

Can you prove Moses saw God.. or saw the angel?

So I am to guess that all religions fall into this catagory as it can not and has never been proven about anything dealing with God.

So it is not just Mormonism.. it is Christianity.. Islam.. all of them. They all fit into that boat of making claims that are not provable.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Mr. Nimrom, you're doing it again. You retreat to the realm of the metaphysical to shield your testimony from the clear contradictions in the claims of your Mormon faith. This is not honest,but it is human. The bottom line is that the claims of the spiritual when applied to the physical realm, MUST have evidence to support the claim. Hence my example of the world wide flood.

Many other faiths have retreated to the realm of the metaphorical, yet Mormonism holds firm to the literal.

[MrNirom]

Ok.. so what you are saying here is that Mormons are the only ones who believe the flood was real?

And because we believe this.. and can not prove it.. we are then false?

Is that right?

[ExmormonFoundation]

One of the major attractions for early Mormon converts was the literal interpretation of the Bible and Smith's pronouncements. They were told that the physical were truly combined with the spiritual, and that they were living in fulfillment of prophecy.

When they like you were shown that this was not the case, they retreated to the realm of the metaphysical to keep their testimony, in short discarding faith for delusion. Faith is to bridge the known to the unknown, not to ignore what is known.

[ExmormonFoundation]

The Mormons are no different from the 7th Day Adventists, the JW's and countless other sects who have made prophetic pronouncements which have not come true. The believer when confronted with this retreats, obfuscates, denies and twists his world view in order to maintain a belief in the cause. You my friend Mr. Nimrom are doing the same. It is understandable, as we all want to be right.

All the best to you in your studies.

[MrNirom]

All religions have truth. But not all religions have knowledge of all truth. And the Mormon Church does not claim to have all knowledge of all truth. It proclaimed to have more truth at that point in time and those that clung to it.. expanded their knowledge.

Your definition of "what is known" eludes me. I am sure you are referring to something that was determined by the "experts". We need to remember, the Godhead are not bound by physical laws of this planet.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Mr. Nimrom, again you retreat to the magical and metaphorical. Truth is what can be shown, proven and validated by multiple sources and individuals. Like you, I too once discounted, obfuscated, scoffed and retreated from the evidence which clearly showed Mormonism to be in error.

This is why I used the example of the flood. There is absolutely no evidence of a world wide flood, period. But there is a great deal of evidence to show that nothing of the sort ever happened.

[MrNirom]

Wow.. such arrogance! You can't prove it so therefore it didn't happen. Anyone who does it becomes "magical" to you. I don't care that you don't believe.. and the way I look at it.. you can believe what you want. There is too much out there for me that shows that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I can not discount that. And I won't discount things becasue I can not explain them... or to trust in man and his version of "flat" earth. Time reveals all.

[ExmormonFoundation]

But you see, you are the one who is arrogant. You do not want to see the world as it is, but rather as you believe it to be, that is an amazing display of hubris my friend, not unlike stating the Earth is the center of the universe. My claims demand to be proven incorrect, yours are supposedly unassailable because you cloak them in faith.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Which of our paths will discover truth and lead one to greater understanding of the world around us?

Testimony is the last bastion of defense for you. Evidence and truth are not on your side hence your continual retreat to the realm of the metaphysical to shield and protect you from fact.

All the best to you in your continued studies.

[MrNirom]

A man believed at one time that there was tiny creatures that infected man and caused him to be sick. Of course.. at this time it was impossible to prove for the technology was not available. In time.. it was proven to be so. It took the faith of the unseen world to figure out a way to see it. Just because you don't have it today.. doesn't mean it isn't there. I do continue to study and as thing become clearer.. I do adjust. Lack of evidence is not proof.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Your stance seems to be advocating that all religions are true, so why have the singular claim that Mormonism is the only TRUE church?

To believe in the spiritual is not wrong, but to believe in spiritual claims which involve the physical world without evidence to back up such claims is absurd. What sort of deity would do this anyway? Loki,the trickster Norse God?

When you hide behind your faith to ignore what is known and provable, it has ceased to be faith and has become delusion.

[MrNirom]

As I have stated before.. all religions have truth.

But just because your idea of the flood has not been proven.. to then claim it is not true is not even logical. For if we went on that basis.. people who believed there were micro organisms before they were proved to exist.. people like you would have called their claims absurd as well. What happens when the time comes that the flood is proved? What do you say then? Oh OH.. so sorry people for leading you astray? Yea right.

[ExmormonFoundation]

LOL! You are too much Mr. Nimrom. Again you miss the point. The evidence clearly shows that the flood did not occur. There is not going to be some hidden evidence that will suddenly make all of the other evidence irrelevant.

That's magical thinking my friend, not one based in logic or evidence. Hence the reason many other faiths have retreated to the metaphorical in regards to scripture, whereas you and Mormonism remain with a literal interpretation.

[MrNirom]

I take it that you don't believe in the New Testament either then. For if the OT Prophets where Metaphorically speaking of it.. then why did Christ himself refer to it? For what reason? to continue the charade?

Matt. 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

[MrNirom]

Honestly.. there has not been one reason presented yet.

It doesn't bother me.. and to say that I am filled with the zeal of blood atonement.. I hope when you said that you where using a deep voice and having Klingon music being played in the back ground.

What amazes me is that if you think Joseph was a fraud because he used a stone.. don't you think he could have thought of a more eloquent way in which to be a fraud than to say yuppers.. I stuck my head into a hat and the stone lit up?

[ExmormonFoundation]

Mr. Nirom, you have just proven my point. You want to believe so you do, despite the absurdity of the faith claim. You are probably a good guy, who believes that Mormonism is exactly what it claims to be, and because of your good heart and desire to stand for truth you come here to "contend" for the faith. Many, many of us who are now on the outside of Mormonism were just like you once upon a time.

You ask for reasons, I guess expecting honesty is not enough?

[ExmormonFoundation]

It is really very simple. Your religion makes claims which demand empirical evidence. For example, the world wide flood is a doctrine of Mormonism. You cannot employ the old Mormon duck and turn ploy to get out of these claims, trying to hide in doctrinal ambiguity. Your scriptures are clear. Yet no evidence whatsoever backs up this fantastic event. Why? Continue to suspend logic, reality means nothing to the true believer. Either there was a world wide flood or there was not.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Thhe works which LDS canon accept as "revelations from God" make it clear that the Noachic flood was worldwide, and killed every human except the eight people aboard Noah's ark.

A few references:

[ExmormonFoundation]

Genesis 7:19-20 (even the highest mountains were covered with water)

Genesis 7:21-23 (every human on earth drowned except for the eight on the ark)

1 Peter 3:18-20 (only eight souls saved by water)

D&C 138:8-9 (ditto)

Moses 8:25, 30 (God vows to "destroy all flesh from off the earth" except for

the eight people on the ark)

Abraham 1:23-24 (Noah's daughter-in-law "Egyptus" discovers the land of Egypt

when "it was under water",referring to the receding flood waters.

[ExmormonFoundation]

It really is that simple. No need to delve into the mysticism of Smith and the gullible antics of others. No evidence = not true. If you make a claim, be prepared to back it up.

You want to believe Mr. Nimron so you do, even when the evidence shows that faith to be in error. As Mark Twain once said, "Faith is used to believe in something you know aint true."

All the best to you in your studies. Please watch the "Releasing the Bonds" videos next.

[MrNirom]

Ok.. this is the 2nd 10 min video I have watched and there is nothing here that would convince me to follow the new "truth" you have discovered.

I can remember when I joined the Church and went from drinking and smoking to not. For a long time I felt I left my life behind. So to go from being Mormon to not being would be identical and is not necessarily as a result of being Mormon. I am sure that when one leaves the "gang" and later joins them again.. it is very similar.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Good Mr.Nimron, stay Mormon. Your being here is proof that the believer will continue to believe despite the evidence which shows such a faith to be absurd. We know, we all did the same thing for many years in most cases. We know these videos bother you, we know they cause you to be filled with the zeal of blood atonement to defend your faith, but so did many of us who left Mormonism, and now we see it for what it is, a fraud.

Believe the absurd, and the indefensible.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Remember, you're talking again about that religious organization that was started by a guy who used a rock in his hat to get messages from God. Okay, yes, good luck with that. You've got your work cut out for you.

All the best to you in your studies.

[divinegoddessartemis]

8:46 I too lost EVERY single Mormon friend. I was immediately questioned about my what sins I was committing to make me stop coming to church. Who had done what to offend me. When the answer was that I wasn't sinning and no one had offended me, my children and I were shunned. It was hurtful at first but we have since chosen our own friends instead of letting our religion choose our associations.

[testskriftene]

You bring up some very good points!

God bless

[johnPhilos]

Some truths are unpleasant. Learning the church my family for generations had built up was a fraud was the most unpleasant truth I've ever learned.

[johnPhilos]

Some mormon apologists are creating sock puppet accounts in order to rate videos down. It is a type of censorship.

[opntheirhartzJesus]

it was bittersweet seeing simon southerton,,, seemed to me that i could see remnants of the pain lingering still. he is a hero, and should be to all mormons, ex- or current, who truly seek the truth.

as has been pointed out, many who leave mormonism are leaving a trans-generational social order; church, business, recreational/leisure, family, neighbors. every facet of a multi-generational mormon's life is permeated by the culture. for those leaving my heart goes out to you. may you find peace

[AKEVELFAN]

Hey osmi...

When are you going to quit insulting your own founders ? If Joe Smith or Brigham Young heard some of the things you've said about the "reliability" of the Journal of Discourses or History fo the Church ?

[bagpiper2005]

Thanks for posting. It's time we ex-Mormons had a voice on YouTube.

[osmiolos]

"It's time we ex-Mormons had a voice on YouTube. "

what a joke. You guys all ready do. It is your EXmormons that are YELLING at families and children in the videos posted on youtube!

I hope every is NOT afraid to look!

a8hRrvWPotY

These are EXmormons! Quality bunch!

[bagpiper2005]

Don't jump to conclusions. These "Street Preachers" probably aren't ex-Mormons at all, they're just like you, believing their way is the only way and will twist arms and manipulate people into believing it however they can.

Most ex-Mormons are atheists or agnostics, by the way, not Christians.

[osmiolos]

" These "Street Preachers" probably aren't ex-Mormons at all"

you are the ONE that jumped to conclusions. James is an EXmormon probably excommunicated for the samethings.

Notice, how I do my homework......

you should try that before responding.

BTW, did Richard Packham's first wife accuse him of abuse?

[bagpiper2005]

I was not excommunicated. I had my name removed. Once I petition for name removal, called "resigning," the church no longer has any power over me, and if they tried to ex me after that, I could have sued their little butts off.

Richard Packham is innocent of all charges regarding abuse. Just talk to him, he'll tell you. His first wife was just looking for another excuse to divorce him.

[johnPhilos]

Some of us "exmormons" are still members, because we haven't all taken the time to officially resign.

[divinegoddessartemis]

some of us "exmormons" are still trying to resign but are being ignored, or the paper work is somehow continually being misplaced. Guess they don't want to lose the numbers.

[1MoNoMo]

There are a boatload of LDS Priesthood holders (BYU Professors, Bishops and Stake Presidents, etc.) locked up in State Prisons that were not just "accused" of abuse but found guilty. Make sure LDS are pure before you go spreading rumors about others. BTW. What does abuse have to do with JosephsMYTH lying?

[MrNirom]

A "boatload" of em eh? LOL Yea.. you have some names and numbers on this "boatload"? Boatload.. easy to say.. it is somewhat ambiguous.. no? Not sure just how bit the boat is.. but the way you say it.. it sounds like a very big boat. But it could be a very small boat.. but who would know for sure? You just said "boatload". So I guess you know what you are talking about and I should believe what you say. LOL Now believing in your "boatload" would be BLIND FAITH!

[1MoNoMo]

If you want a list of them google for them.

MUST I do all the work for you?

I live in Utahrd County and it seems a week doesn't go by but what some LDS guy is brought up on charges of abuse--teachers, BYU personnel, bishops SP's etc. Regardless of how many (boatload or coverd wagon, or SUV) LDS are guilty of this crime, one should not point at others crimes in order to prove how righteous you are (or your org.). It's not only stupid to do so but classless and juvenile.