The comments like "these airlines keep shorting these pilots on fuel loads" and "You should have so much fuel for a diversion to an alternate plus 30 mins or something." - umm, how do you know what happened just prior to this clip? Are you assuming the pilots were just off initial descent and approaching the NY area? Any chance that this clip BEGAN after a holding pattern?
1:45 - that controller should have been fired for that moment. And then for pretty much the entire rest of the approach, should just ensure the appeal would last less than 5 minutes. Of course, his union probably made sure he got a promotion and raise..
PIC means Pilot in Command. He is in charge. Absolutely not ATC. Pilots can basically do whatever they want in a may day or a Pan Pan. I had a Pan Pan and was given the entire airport and airspace at my discretion. And yes, management does like to cut fuel short for efficiency. I know this.
@lindo745 I'm afraid you are wrong. The correct phrase would have been to ave declared a PAN. Saying "I declare an emergency" means nothing to air traffic. By saying the words PAN or MAYDAY to ATC, creates a whole different ball game...also from a legal stand point too.
What the hell is "we have declared an emergency"? Isn't the correct phraseology "PAN PAN" or "MAYDAY"?? No wonder ATC didn't understand, and the pilot was incredibly vague about the whole thing. Amazing really, American ATC is much more informal than in Australia, this sort of shit would never fly here, thats for sure..... for the record I have thousands of multi crew RPT hours :)
@aviationboy8 The correct phraseology in aviation is exactly what the the pilot said. "We (or I) am declaring and emergency". It leaves no ambiguity except of this moron of a controller. Pan Pan is for marine and May day is military although Mayday can be used in civil aviation. As to your experience anyone can be anything on the internet.
@lindo745 Things might be different in the USA but here in Australia the phrases are definitely Pan and Mayday, and I know this because I have over 4 years of airline flying experience. My point is the pilot was pretty vague about his emergency, had I not read the story I wouldn't have known what it was either. Something along the lines of "Pan/Mayday we are at critical fuel request immediate landing 31R" would have been much clearer... but then again, I wasn't there so.....
@lindo745 I should also add that a Pan is a state of urgency, which would apply here. Mayday would not unless the tanks were basically empty because that only applies to a life threatening situation, for example if you were on fire or lost all engines.
@aviationboy8 The pilot of American 2 is going to land where he wants anyway. Who cares if he says 'Mayday' or Pan Pan. The real question is why did he not have enough fuel to circle and follow instructions?
I outted myself by saying "we". I fly for an airline. Approach controllers constantly tell us to "intercept the localizer" on visual approaches so even the controllers know we fly the ils.
@donjo19 Actually that's against regulation. They only tell you to intercept the localizer when you are on an ILS or LOC app. Vatsim airlines are not real airlines my friend.
Alright buddy, you're delcaring an emergency, congratulations, now don't push it by saying "clear the runway" what do you think ATC and Ground will do start a parade on your desired runway? Show some appreciation man.
This guy is a knob and obviously fucked up with his fuel. He has less than 10kts of tailwind and depending on what his company uses as crosswind computation less than 35kts which for an a/c like that should be no problem.
He should be hauled up in front of his chief pilot for his conduct and lack of professionalism
@4wheelerDJ not even a number to call when they landed. That's why us pilots, are fighting for the american heavy pilots. All of these guys saying he was in the wrong need to go back to flying their computers.
If anyone takes the time to read the story they will see that the pilot saved some lives that day as the aircraft was not capable of landing in that strong of cross wind, he also didn't have enough fuel to get back in line which is why he turned to the runway he wanted and put it down, this pilot rocks, I hope the air traffic controller got fired for second guessing the pilot!
@40joel Not surprising at all. For example: MD11's max crosswind allowance at landing is only 24 knots. I know this AA is not a MD11, but 35 knots is 50% higher than MD11's limit.
@SMiller5488 Pilot is ultimately at fault for failing to recognize the fuel emergency earlier and landing at an alternate, No matter the cause of the "low fuel" problem...he should have landed at the nearest facility rather than pushing for his destination. He also never gave a nature of the emergency. I would like to hear the rest of the tape.
@psyjpg That's what i was thinking. You should have so much fuel for a diversion to an alternate plus 30 mins or something. At least I read that somewhere.
Is the Air traffic controller deaf or idiot?? Like the pilot said: Three times we've declared an emergency...!! Let the pilot do their job, he IS the one in control of that aircraft.
@altbust Well I'm sure he knows how to spell, for one (its douche). And actually, when he declares an emergency, he does own the airspace. If you were a pilot, you would know that you are the sole commander of the aircraft. ATC has NO AUTHORITY, the directions they give are merely suggestions. Pilots use these suggestions because if they don't, the controller can report them to the FAA for putting other in danger.
@acherasover Hey retard! When you declare an emergency ATC are doing all they can to help you. As a commander you are responsible for your the safety of the aircraft. When you flying around a busy TMA doing whatever they hell you want, you are putting your aircraft and others around you at risk. You can't have a one dimensional approach during an emergency. Its guys like you that make flying dangerous for the rest of us. I hope to God you aren't a captain. Douche bag! Did I spell it right?
@altbust when you don't know about the rules of flying you shouldn't talk like you do. The Pilot in Command can deviate from any ATC instruction if he determines it puts himself or others in danger. From what somebody else said, the story was he was low on fuel and couldn't go into the pattern or deal with the cross wind for whatever reason
@altbust Well, if you listened to the sound bite, you would know that he was already on final. That being said, he told the ATC his intentions of "breaking off" or side stepping to the other runway. Being that he was already cleared to land, I don't think there were other aircraft in his immediate vicinity. Simply side stepping to the right did put any other aircraft in danger. And seeing as how the pilot was not reprimanded for any of his actions, I'd say the FAA is on my side.
hello, If you solo,have any pilot license from any country in this earth,or any galaxy,you have a very special skill .Only 0000000000.1% of the galactic population poses this knowledge.Let no forget the aviation support technicians,and last but no least those ho just love aviation,they are the most intelligent humans known in this universe.So if you are commenting you are one.God speed
@mrXirish Then I'm sorry. I didn't want to offend you, or anyone.. I just had been following this story for about a year, and being a pilot it bothers me when people make judgement on another who has to make a decision. I'm not here to hate, or be angry at anyone. Also, I don't think I'm smarter than anyone... and sorry if I acted that way. I just honestly believe that I, as a pilot.. would have done the same thing.. I want to keep people safe... That's all man!
@mrXirish But all you did at first was bash the facts that I stated... The PIC has the final CALL. No matter what. It's up to the FAA, or (In Canada) Transport Canada) To decide what happens afterwards. You said we "Interpreted the report differently" which is false, because it seems like you just read it now..
No matter what, the winds were high, he was low on fuel, the ILS was having issues... I would have done the same thing he did. He was not fined or disciplined for his actions.
@TheMeslava You're don't have to keep saying facts to look smarter than me. It's obvious you're much smarter than me. Once again I apologize for not reading the report in to much depth in the first place before I replied to your comments. Though it would have been nice if you would have responded on the way you treated the situation instead of ignoring it.
sparky739 Had it right. THEY ASKED FOR RUNWAY 31 AND WERE VECTORED TO 22L WHERE THE ILS IS NOT WORKING ON 22L, WIND 310 AT 23 GUSTING TO 35 AND THEY ARE LOW ON FUEL...IT WOULD BE A TOUGH CROSSWIND LANDING, AND WHAT HAPPENS IF HE HAS TO GO AROUND? BETTER TO FORCE THE ISSUE...PIC DID THE RIGHT THING.
That's what he said. All you idiots that do not know what you are talking about READ IT. Winds are 20+ gusting to 34, He COULD NOT go around without a problem
@mrXirish Teaching stance in the US? I'm Canadian you idiot. And I didn't actually report you, I ignored you as a user, where on youtube do you see a feature like that besides "report spam". You really have your logic messed up. Read the NTSB report. NOT the video description report, but the ACTUALLY SAFETY BOARD report. That might help to clear up what you can't see.
@TheMeslava 1. How am I supposed to now that you're Canadian?? I apologize for not knowing where someone lives base on youtube dialect. 2. You said you reported me so I guess I just believed you. 3. I was wrong. You're right, he was low on fuel based on the ntsb report. Don't say my logic is messed up just because I didn't know random things about you like where you lived and whether you actually did report me or not.
sparky739 Had it right. THEY ASKED FOR RUNWAY 31 AND WERE VECTORED TO 22L WHERE THE ILS IS NOT WORKING ON 22L, WIND 310 AT 23 GUSTING TO 35 AND THEY ARE LOW ON FUEL...IT WOULD BE A TOUGH CROSSWIND LANDING, AND WHAT HAPPENS IF HE HAS TO GO AROUND? BETTER TO FORCE THE ISSUE...PIC DID THE RIGHT THING.
That's what he said. All you idiots that do not know what you are talking about READ IT. Winds are 20+ gusting to 34, He COULD NOT go around without a problem. It's justified. Fuck off.
@xZepii I think you need help. I'm not wrong. I never said anything that was wrong. You people need a bit of education. No wonder people say teachers need to be paid more. I can see why.
@TheMeslava See now you're appearing to be rather pathetic as you've changed the base of your argument to the faults of "us" and the entire teaching force in the U.S. That's rather sad as any teacher's shit makes more sense that your argument. Perhaps if you've continued to argue your stance on the video instead of calling me out and reporting me, maybe we could've actually agreed on something.
@mrXirish It's nice to know that you've been reported for using language like that in a simple discussion. It just proves how wrong you are when you can't talk decently.
@TheMeslava You told scuzzydirtbag to "fuck his top comment shit" and you told all of us "ignorant assholes" to grow up so I don't know why you're complaining about me when you swore as well in earlier posts. Don't get mad at other people for something you do to.
@RealTalkOnlyBro Flight Sim is a game... A game that aviation enthusiastic people should want to play. So I play it, it's fun. That's what a video game is. Flying is serious, and too much of it can be bad for your health as well.
Besides that fact, I said I was a pilot, not that I had a job flying. But I do know enough about aviation to read facts and reports... And I can say that the other persons comments were wrong when he said that I don't actually fly a plane, which is false.
@TheMeslava 1. I never said you didn't fly a plane. 2. I never deleted that comment...you're still retarded. 3. It appears my interpretation of the flight report is different than yours...
@mrXirish Did you even listen to the whole video? He said that he couldn't go around, and he needed that runway. The NTSB report for this says all the facts I commented and told you.
And also, just because I have a few flight sim videos on my account doesn't mean I don't fly a real aircraft, there is a video, actually 2 videos on my profile of me flying a real one, so don't sit here and tell me off like you think you know everything. Also, don't call me retarded like your deleted comment.
@TheMeslava no no no...the only reason that pilot did that was because he probably had a timetable to keep at JFK due to the U.S. airline industry being stressed to the limits. Stop saying all this kiss-ass stuff about SAFETY and "any pilot would have done it". That stuff goes without saying for anyone who actually flies a plane. We don't need flight simulator people like you here trying to act like authority.
@scuzzydirtbag No he didn't. He was very professional and blunt. He told the controller what he wanted and NEEDED. That is as simple as it is. He had no ILS, the crosswind was out of his limitations, and he COULD NOT do a go around without being low on fuel. Would you want the pilot to keep flying around and wait for the controller to get him a turn and maybe run out of fuel?? I don't think so. Keep your mouth shut and fuck your top comment shit. Learn something people, maybe take a lesson.
@TheMeslava Stop acting like you're some sort of pro pilot just because you play microsoft flight simulator...we're all here just watching youtube so none of us really understand the full extent of what was happening. He also never said anything about fuel u tryhard
A number of years ago, I elected to land on a closed runway that was directly into a high wind (C-47) as opposed to landing on the active with a severe crosswind...No emergency, just pilot choice. Tower said ...Pilot Assumes Responsibilty..(It was night and rain).
In the case of American, he should have told them Minimun Fuel early on...if that was the case.
see what you don't see in the video is that early in the flight this pilot was being vectored off course a few times due to weather and once he got to the field he was low on fuel, then the localizor on the ils goes out, thirdly the crosswind he was dealing with exceeded his landing limitations so he told atc that he needed 31r and if he didn't get it he would need to declare an emergency. This pilot is a hero for everything he had to deal with.
All you people that don't know how to fly, you have no idea what is going on. He NEEDS that runway, because he can't make a certain approach and go around safely without a fuel problem. Simply put, next time your ass is in the plane, remember that the pilots WANT to keep you safe, they will do what they need to do to get you down ,regardless of how it sounds to you ignorant assholes. Grow up.
Good pilot is the one that stays allive and keeps the passengers safe. Not the one that we read about in news "that crashed yesterday cuz of fuel shortage". Than all of you would judge stupid pilot that didn't declare an emergency and killed peopple and himself. There already was a story, when plane crashed in to a house in NYC Long Island, cuz he ran out of fuel.
The FAR's need to include an appendex stating proper etiquette when it comes to dealing with ATC matters. This is just creating unneeded tension in the air.
It´s American Airlines for god sake. The pilots are dead tired and over worked and payed shit for what they do not to mention the rest of the crew. American Airlines, one star in Skytrax in 2011 and we working hard to loose that one. Avoid this airline at all cost.
First of all the radio procedures of this pilot are pretty bad. If he is min fuel he should have repeated that in every single radio call, same goes for the emergency, have to repeat it.
Once an emergency is declared the pilot gets control and he decides what happens, ATC will simply have to make it happen, they become advisory only. The switch from 22 to 31R is logic, it is quick and easy landing.
But....if you declare an emergency for the fun of it you are in deep shit.
Pilot IS a dick. You don't threaten to declare an emergency just because you don't like the runway that ATC has directed you to. If you declare an emergency you damn well better have an emergency.
@ret74pilot Declaring an emergency gives you ability to violate every rule in a book, but only in the interest of safety. That ability ends on a ground and is followed by investigation, in which, if you are found to not legitimately exercise emergency authority, you will not only have to answer for all broken rules, but may encounter new charges like ATC impairment.
Declaring Emergency doesn't give you a blank check to do whatever you want. You will have to prove its necessity at a later hour.
THE ATC should be fired and put into jail. When an emergency landing is declared they should be given priority over any operations to safely land the plane and close any inbound and outbound flights.
@travelplus1 You're a rated tower ATC are you? Or at least involved in tower control in some way?
I am.
Just because a pilot declares an emergency does not give him carte blanche to do what they want. It is meant to be a co-ordinated effort between the ATC, the PIC and other aircraft in the air. Your emergency must not endanger the lives of other air users.
If the PIC was that low on fuel he should have declared an emergency before that. He had to be deep in his reserves already
Having declared an emergency with sufficient time it would not have ended up like that. Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
With a zone that sounded like there were a couple of other planes airborne, the ATC does need some time to move them out the way.
The pilot is the final responsibility for safety of his aircraft, but the other planes on frequency are the ATC's problem, and he does need to move them around.
PIC did the right thing here. They know their plane and what they can and cannot do. They are not going to risk the lives of their passengers or their equipment because the ATC wants them to make a bad approach. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.
The pilot is the captain of his ship, period. Also, a controller should be mindful at all times of emergency contingencies, e.g. if this then that. The best controller will have contingencies two or three deep. It is something that should be practiced in the mind regularly for a variety of circumstances. It is piss poor performance, and ultimately unsafe, when a controller takes time to argue. At the very least, it is non-standard phraseology that has no place on a control frequency.
I keep hearing the same comments about the PIC having a good grip of the big picture... How on earth can a pilot know where other planes are in proximity to him? The ATC is obligated to accommodate the pilot in an emergency, but this should be a coordinated effort. Other planes in the area on final have to be moved to keep proximity requirements and so forth. In this case, from the audio, one aircraft has their approach cancelled to accommodate for AAL 2heavy.
@lookingne cleared for the approach means you are cleared for the published approach. Seeing as how he was at 2000, he probably wasn't on final approach. You are not on final until you have landing clearance.
@donjo19 not true, what about a visual approach? Those don't have FAFs. And RNAV (GPS) approaches often are not even lined up with the runway.. you come down to your DA (or decision altitude), find the airport and land on the runway that, at your FAF you are [often] perpendicular to. You are on final approach when you are lined up with the runway, and plan on no other changes in direction, other than to correct your path onto the runway. And generally, cleared to land.
@acherasover Very true and the majority of your responses are incorrect. Visual approaches aren't considered as instrument approaches. The majority of RNAV approaches are lined up with the runways and do not have a DA unless it is a LPV approach, they will have a MDA. VOR/NDB/SDF are various approaches that do not necessarily line up with runways. The final approach segment as defined by the IFH "begins at the FAF and ends at the MAP or landing".
@donjo19 so then by your logic, only aircraft on instrument approaches have final approaches? And I stand corrected, I confused VOR/NDB/SDF approaches with RNAV approaches. However, RNAV approaches DO have DAs, even without it being an LPV approach. such as LNAV and VNAV approaches. And what is the IFH (instr. flying handbook?)? The FAR/AIM definition for FAF is "defines the beginning of the FA segment and the point where final segment descent may begin." You don't have to be IFR to be on final.
@acherasover The logic I'm using is that of IFR. All airlines operate IFR, this is why I stated the final approach segment as per the flying handbook beginning at the FAF, even though we do Visual Approaches, we still do the published ILS approaches. And you're correct with the LNAV/VNAV.
@donjo19 Well way to out yourself, you're not a commercial pilot. Airliners do not follow the published ILS approaches when on a visual. Visual approaches usually have you perpendicular to the approach course well before the IAF and IF. Meaning you wouldn't be following the same approach course. Maybe you're thinking of following the glide slope, but even then the FARs don't state that you have to be on the glide slope. You just can't see 4 red. Assuming there is a PAPI.
@donjo19 I would agree with you BUT I would have to know what all the MDA"S LPV'S and all the rest mean to a person who has not been in an aircraft before
Meh, if a pilot wants to declare emergency then just pull the crash phone, file the paperwork and let FSDO handle it after the fact. There's no reason to get any type of attitude.
There could have been other factors aboard the aircraft to prompt the decision. The article implies he was emergency fuel. There's no cause for attitude on either end of this.
In the case of Logistics 569, to me it seemed the ATC challenged her into taking the Greensboro approach,she had been diverted from her original destination which was 100 overcast to Greensboro which was also 100 overcast. The end result was she crashed into a house after a low Altitude alert. True, a lack of IFR skill may have played a part, but if you listen to the audio it's clear she wasn't comfortable with the situation and after ATC told her everyone was getting in, she reluctantly said ok
If the pilot is wrong in declaring an emergency, deal with it after he lands on whatever runway he wants. Let the FAA deal with him if he was violating procedures. To me with the wind out of 310 and he wants 31 ti land, that seems ideal and the best solution, given they had gusts to 35 and he had a fuel issue. I've only had my PPL for 2 years but i know there's no room for ego, either in the cockpit or in the tower. If I was a pass. on that flight, I would want my PIC to get WHATEVER he wanted..
My opinion is this 1st, the ATC needs to lose the attitude, the PIC is ultimately in charge of all souls and as such whatever he wants he should get regardless of his attitude- tone.A good example of ATC attitude is Logistics 569 crash.Pilot Marcia Salmons Keaton was diverted to Greensboro which was 100 overcast at the time, she really didn't want Greensboro but the ATC said "Everybody's getting into Greensboro" So she attempted. The result was she crashed after a low Alt alert. PIC & pass.died
THEY ASKED FOR RUNWAY 31 AND WERE VECTORED TO 22L WHERE THE ILS IS NOT WORKING ON 22L, WIND 310 AT 23 GUSTING TO 35 AND THEY ARE LOW ON FUEL...IT WOULD BE A TOUGH CROSSWIND LANDING, AND WHAT HAPPENS IF HE HAS TO GO AROUND? BETTER TO FORCE THE ISSUE...PIC DID THE RIGHT THING.
After listening to this conversation again and finding out that the pilot falsified the emergency, it remains clear to me in my experience that this sort of selfish behavior and action only puts people's lives in danger. Thank you to the truly professional pilots. You guys make people like this stand out like a sore thumb!
@harrysonmiller132- I believe what you keep referring to is really "priority over other aircraft", not "priority over controllers". I would love for you to come watch us work some traffic sometime. I understand that your lives are in danger during an emergency. Please trust me when I say this: every single controller working knows just how much danger there is in flying. You can't be a controller and not work a LOT of emergencies. Yes, our job at that point is to assist you in any way possib
@smoverstreet1 Im curious, do you enjoy ATC work? Is it a bit like playing a video game or something? Im just curious because it must be something you like in order to deal with such a stressful work
PIC was spot on. He brought her home in one piece, regardless of why he chose to do what he did. ATC can't fly the aircraft...they are only there for support but often they don't see the whole picture the way the PIC does. Conversely, the PIC can't always see everything the ATC sees...but he sure can hear it and create an instant mental image. PIC is always the one to make the final decisions. All things being equal, it would be absurd to go 22L instead of 31R when the wind is 310 at 23.
This is one of those intense moments that was handled well by the PIC. The ATC handled it ok. I dont think he quite got the jist of the situation, which forced the PIC to declare an emergency to get the plane safely down. The main factor here I think was unexpected wind...
Just read the full story, looks like the emergency was they didn't have enough fuel for a go around, and the crosswind correction for that landing was beyond the published limits for the aircraft. Pilots are the final authority to the flight, so they had the right to do this. All they have to do, is write a letter to the administrative if one is requested. And judgement of the emergency really isn't in the FAR's. Personally, they felt they needed to, then they needed to. ATC handled it OK too.
There was another flight years ago that kept getting shuffled and finally crashed in the Hamptons, (I think the Hamptons) but if fuel was the issue the pilot is right to declare emergency because ny atc is organized chaos in the best of times. They do a great job considering. It's not the pilot or atc who is at fault, it's the overburdened system.
@18erhammerdown Avianca Flight 52 is the flight you're thinking of. They kept getting shuffled from ATC to ATC and finally crashed in cove neck, ny when they ran out of fuel. The mistake they made was not finally saying "declaring an emergency, we're landing, get the fuck out of the way!". Instead they "played nice" and kept getting pushed around until the engines died.
LOL you guys are strange. Agreed that if an aircraft is in distress and has declared an emergency then all priority goes to him and all the regulations are out of the window. Just bring down the aircraft safely. HOWEVER, a pilot can not declare an emergency if there is no real emergency onboard the aircraft, period. In this case he just did not want to use runway 22L and wanted 31R. Should be fired.
@contemporarymonk You are hearing the last 5 minutes of the flight. How do you know everything was fine? Whats to say that his fuel levels may have been dangerously low. That doing a missed approach, and approach all over again would put the flight in serious risk?
You don't, simple as that. It is the PICs choice to declare an emergency, he did, so ATC must comply
@FightingFalc0n yeah... and you are not hearing it? "American 2 heavy cleared to land 22L". So he is cleared to land on 22L and then decides to use 31R when he is low on fuel? That makes no sence. Furhtermore, "heavy" means a long flight and they are required to carry an additional 45 minutes of fuel after landing. If he really did have a fuel emergency he should have declared "fuel emergency" a long time before, not on final. The reason he went emergency is because of the wind.
@contemporarymonk like i said, this is the last portion of the flight. Whats to say he hasn't had to divert from his original destination. Whats to say they didnt have some unexpected head winds, burning more fuel than they thought.
Yes he wanted to change runways because of the wind. But he never said that was the emergency. I dont know what it was, and you dont know what it was.
Oh and have a look at that link in the description
What is he doing declaring an emergency? He states that he has visual on the RW, and therefore should be capable of performing an approach without ILS!
Absolutely this pilot was in the right. NYC ATC is quite often out of control. As another commenter said, when an aircraft declares an emergency, it is not at the convenience of ATN.
Maybe nature of emergency was fuel. Or crosswind/tailwind landing on 22L, with even a slightly poor technique could cause an aircraft overrunning the runway or maybe even to the left. I agree he should've stated the nature of emergency though.
The Emergency onboard was fuel, this was a bad weather day in JFK and there was tons of heading deviations, Heading deviations are deviated paths from the Flight Plan, therefore costing fuel.
Hang on a minute, there must have been a reason for him declaring an emergency otherwise he would have been in deep shit with the company and it certainly would have been frowned on. His main duty was to get the aircraft on the ground. He told ATC that if he was given a particular instruction, he was unable to comply and would have to declare an emergency but doesnt state what the reason was, thats not to say there wasnt one so you should maybe read the full transcript or cut him some slack.
@debiassi Fuel, thats the reason, before this flight, the pilot was constantly on heading deviations because of bad weather.HDG deviations cost fuel, if you don't meet the FAA requirements, then you are forced to declare an emergency whether the ATC likes it or not.
@mainerunner100 it wasnt a fake. You cant just get away with declaring an emergency. Tons of paperwork and investigation goes into why you declared the emergency.
The comments like "these airlines keep shorting these pilots on fuel loads" and "You should have so much fuel for a diversion to an alternate plus 30 mins or something." - umm, how do you know what happened just prior to this clip? Are you assuming the pilots were just off initial descent and approaching the NY area? Any chance that this clip BEGAN after a holding pattern?
rexdrob 8 hours ago
1:45 - that controller should have been fired for that moment. And then for pretty much the entire rest of the approach, should just ensure the appeal would last less than 5 minutes. Of course, his union probably made sure he got a promotion and raise..
rexdrob 8 hours ago
PIC means Pilot in Command. He is in charge. Absolutely not ATC. Pilots can basically do whatever they want in a may day or a Pan Pan. I had a Pan Pan and was given the entire airport and airspace at my discretion. And yes, management does like to cut fuel short for efficiency. I know this.
GeoffreyGodshall 15 hours ago
these airlines keep shorting these pilots on fuel loads to save dollars creates situations such as this... friggen shame....
redifreddy14 1 day ago
Phrase, not please. Stupid auto correct...
AZLetendre 2 days ago
The please is Mayday. Pan-Pan-Pan is to decal and Urgency situation. You can find the difrence in the FAA 7110.10.
AZLetendre 2 days ago
@AZLetendre The please is PAN PAN PAN even if there is smoke in the cockpit. Where do you think the smoke is coming from?
psyjpg 1 day ago
@lindo745 I'm afraid you are wrong. The correct phrase would have been to ave declared a PAN. Saying "I declare an emergency" means nothing to air traffic. By saying the words PAN or MAYDAY to ATC, creates a whole different ball game...also from a legal stand point too.
gedlingjc 2 days ago
What the hell is "we have declared an emergency"? Isn't the correct phraseology "PAN PAN" or "MAYDAY"?? No wonder ATC didn't understand, and the pilot was incredibly vague about the whole thing. Amazing really, American ATC is much more informal than in Australia, this sort of shit would never fly here, thats for sure..... for the record I have thousands of multi crew RPT hours :)
aviationboy8 3 days ago
@aviationboy8 The correct phraseology in aviation is exactly what the the pilot said. "We (or I) am declaring and emergency". It leaves no ambiguity except of this moron of a controller. Pan Pan is for marine and May day is military although Mayday can be used in civil aviation. As to your experience anyone can be anything on the internet.
lindo745 2 days ago
@lindo745 Pan pan pan is used if you experience smoke in the cockpit ( e.g.,SwissAir 111).
psyjpg 2 days ago
@lindo745 Things might be different in the USA but here in Australia the phrases are definitely Pan and Mayday, and I know this because I have over 4 years of airline flying experience. My point is the pilot was pretty vague about his emergency, had I not read the story I wouldn't have known what it was either. Something along the lines of "Pan/Mayday we are at critical fuel request immediate landing 31R" would have been much clearer... but then again, I wasn't there so.....
aviationboy8 2 days ago
@lindo745 I should also add that a Pan is a state of urgency, which would apply here. Mayday would not unless the tanks were basically empty because that only applies to a life threatening situation, for example if you were on fire or lost all engines.
aviationboy8 2 days ago
@aviationboy8 The pilot of American 2 is going to land where he wants anyway. Who cares if he says 'Mayday' or Pan Pan. The real question is why did he not have enough fuel to circle and follow instructions?
psyjpg 1 day ago
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theonewhoassist 1 week ago
Asshole NYC ATC...
hibypass 1 week ago
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theonewhoassist 1 week ago
This is the same controller that spoke to Captain Sully during his ditch in the hudson.
sennetor 1 week ago
@sennetor And is Capt. Sully really a 'hero'? He flew everyone into a flock of geese and then ruined a completely good airplane.
psyjpg 1 day ago
you dumbasses all need to go back to embry riddle and ask for a refund.
beergut111 2 weeks ago
I outted myself by saying "we". I fly for an airline. Approach controllers constantly tell us to "intercept the localizer" on visual approaches so even the controllers know we fly the ils.
donjo19 2 weeks ago
@donjo19 Actually that's against regulation. They only tell you to intercept the localizer when you are on an ILS or LOC app. Vatsim airlines are not real airlines my friend.
acherasover 5 days ago
@acherasover Lol vatsim....no but seriously we get told to intercept the localizer all the time for visuals including speed restrictions to markers.
donjo19 5 days ago
@donjo19 That is only if the localizer has been 'reset'. You can't establish a glide slope of 3 deg. without a working localizer.
psyjpg 1 day ago
He declared an emergency one time, not three lol what a dick face...
alexancia5279 1 month ago
Retraining definitely needed no wonder American Airlines is circling the toilet......
smartiepantzbabe69 1 month ago
Alright buddy, you're delcaring an emergency, congratulations, now don't push it by saying "clear the runway" what do you think ATC and Ground will do start a parade on your desired runway? Show some appreciation man.
aceflyer89 1 month ago
haha, so when did AA start allowing chided 15-year-old emo-schoolboys to fly their planes?
MrLegoMan88 1 month ago
This guy is a knob and obviously fucked up with his fuel. He has less than 10kts of tailwind and depending on what his company uses as crosswind computation less than 35kts which for an a/c like that should be no problem.
He should be hauled up in front of his chief pilot for his conduct and lack of professionalism
flapsto60 1 month ago
low fuel? not enough for a go-around procedure? something wrong about that
camilobeze 1 month ago
Anyone get fired over this?
4wheelerDJ 1 month ago
@4wheelerDJ not even a number to call when they landed. That's why us pilots, are fighting for the american heavy pilots. All of these guys saying he was in the wrong need to go back to flying their computers.
acherasover 1 month ago
Hey altbust, according to FAR 91.3 the pic can deviate from any atc directions in order to meet the extend of the emergency.
NelsonCollado 1 month ago
@NelsonCollado Thats Correct
Carpfish29 1 month ago
If anyone takes the time to read the story they will see that the pilot saved some lives that day as the aircraft was not capable of landing in that strong of cross wind, he also didn't have enough fuel to get back in line which is why he turned to the runway he wanted and put it down, this pilot rocks, I hope the air traffic controller got fired for second guessing the pilot!
SMiller5488 1 month ago 17
@SMiller5488 I have not read it but it seems odd that a heavy would reject a clearance for 35 knot gusts. He said the ILS was out.
40joel 1 week ago
@40joel Not surprising at all. For example: MD11's max crosswind allowance at landing is only 24 knots. I know this AA is not a MD11, but 35 knots is 50% higher than MD11's limit.
raylee17 6 days ago
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@SMiller5488 Pilot is ultimately at fault for failing to recognize the fuel emergency earlier and landing at an alternate, No matter the cause of the "low fuel" problem...he should have landed at the nearest facility rather than pushing for his destination. He also never gave a nature of the emergency. I would like to hear the rest of the tape.
theonewhoassist 1 week ago
@SMiller5488 Its not the controllers fault that this pilot miscalculated fuel requirements. If ATC gives you a runway, you take it.
psyjpg 2 days ago
@psyjpg That's what i was thinking. You should have so much fuel for a diversion to an alternate plus 30 mins or something. At least I read that somewhere.
directorphilip2 1 day ago
@SMiller5488 ATC cannot refuse a rumway request on landing.
sonex424 2 days ago
yep he declared screw everyone else. Pilots in control if he thinks its what he needs.
braneden 1 month ago
Is the Air traffic controller deaf or idiot?? Like the pilot said: Three times we've declared an emergency...!! Let the pilot do their job, he IS the one in control of that aircraft.
sdgirlbebe 1 month ago
Good job on the pilot.
MrMrwilem 1 month ago
great vid!!!!!111
freechello 1 month ago
What a dousch bag american airlines pilot....he doesn't own the airspace...he just can't handle his crosswinds
altbust 1 month ago
@altbust Well I'm sure he knows how to spell, for one (its douche). And actually, when he declares an emergency, he does own the airspace. If you were a pilot, you would know that you are the sole commander of the aircraft. ATC has NO AUTHORITY, the directions they give are merely suggestions. Pilots use these suggestions because if they don't, the controller can report them to the FAA for putting other in danger.
Try reading the FAR/AIM then open your mouth.
acherasover 1 month ago
@acherasover Hey retard! When you declare an emergency ATC are doing all they can to help you. As a commander you are responsible for your the safety of the aircraft. When you flying around a busy TMA doing whatever they hell you want, you are putting your aircraft and others around you at risk. You can't have a one dimensional approach during an emergency. Its guys like you that make flying dangerous for the rest of us. I hope to God you aren't a captain. Douche bag! Did I spell it right?
altbust 1 month ago
@altbust when you don't know about the rules of flying you shouldn't talk like you do. The Pilot in Command can deviate from any ATC instruction if he determines it puts himself or others in danger. From what somebody else said, the story was he was low on fuel and couldn't go into the pattern or deal with the cross wind for whatever reason
popkorn66 1 month ago
@altbust Well said. He fucked up badly and puts the rest of the pilot community in a bad light
flapsto60 1 month ago
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@altbust Well said. He fucked up badly and puts the rest of the pilot community in a bad light
flapsto60 1 month ago
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@altbust Well said. He fucked up badly and puts the rest of the pilot community in a bad light
flapsto60 1 month ago
@altbust Well, if you listened to the sound bite, you would know that he was already on final. That being said, he told the ATC his intentions of "breaking off" or side stepping to the other runway. Being that he was already cleared to land, I don't think there were other aircraft in his immediate vicinity. Simply side stepping to the right did put any other aircraft in danger. And seeing as how the pilot was not reprimanded for any of his actions, I'd say the FAA is on my side.
acherasover 1 month ago
hello, If you solo,have any pilot license from any country in this earth,or any galaxy,you have a very special skill .Only 0000000000.1% of the galactic population poses this knowledge.Let no forget the aviation support technicians,and last but no least those ho just love aviation,they are the most intelligent humans known in this universe.So if you are commenting you are one.God speed
pavelavietor1 1 month ago
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TheMeslava 1 month ago
@mrXirish Then I'm sorry. I didn't want to offend you, or anyone.. I just had been following this story for about a year, and being a pilot it bothers me when people make judgement on another who has to make a decision. I'm not here to hate, or be angry at anyone. Also, I don't think I'm smarter than anyone... and sorry if I acted that way. I just honestly believe that I, as a pilot.. would have done the same thing.. I want to keep people safe... That's all man!
TheMeslava 1 month ago
@mrXirish But all you did at first was bash the facts that I stated... The PIC has the final CALL. No matter what. It's up to the FAA, or (In Canada) Transport Canada) To decide what happens afterwards. You said we "Interpreted the report differently" which is false, because it seems like you just read it now..
No matter what, the winds were high, he was low on fuel, the ILS was having issues... I would have done the same thing he did. He was not fined or disciplined for his actions.
TheMeslava 1 month ago
@TheMeslava You're don't have to keep saying facts to look smarter than me. It's obvious you're much smarter than me. Once again I apologize for not reading the report in to much depth in the first place before I replied to your comments. Though it would have been nice if you would have responded on the way you treated the situation instead of ignoring it.
mrXirish 1 month ago
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Also, @mrXirish I comment this AGAIN.
sparky739 Had it right. THEY ASKED FOR RUNWAY 31 AND WERE VECTORED TO 22L WHERE THE ILS IS NOT WORKING ON 22L, WIND 310 AT 23 GUSTING TO 35 AND THEY ARE LOW ON FUEL...IT WOULD BE A TOUGH CROSSWIND LANDING, AND WHAT HAPPENS IF HE HAS TO GO AROUND? BETTER TO FORCE THE ISSUE...PIC DID THE RIGHT THING.
That's what he said. All you idiots that do not know what you are talking about READ IT. Winds are 20+ gusting to 34, He COULD NOT go around without a problem
TheMeslava 1 month ago
@mrXirish Teaching stance in the US? I'm Canadian you idiot. And I didn't actually report you, I ignored you as a user, where on youtube do you see a feature like that besides "report spam". You really have your logic messed up. Read the NTSB report. NOT the video description report, but the ACTUALLY SAFETY BOARD report. That might help to clear up what you can't see.
TheMeslava 1 month ago
@TheMeslava 1. How am I supposed to now that you're Canadian?? I apologize for not knowing where someone lives base on youtube dialect. 2. You said you reported me so I guess I just believed you. 3. I was wrong. You're right, he was low on fuel based on the ntsb report. Don't say my logic is messed up just because I didn't know random things about you like where you lived and whether you actually did report me or not.
mrXirish 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
sparky739 Had it right. THEY ASKED FOR RUNWAY 31 AND WERE VECTORED TO 22L WHERE THE ILS IS NOT WORKING ON 22L, WIND 310 AT 23 GUSTING TO 35 AND THEY ARE LOW ON FUEL...IT WOULD BE A TOUGH CROSSWIND LANDING, AND WHAT HAPPENS IF HE HAS TO GO AROUND? BETTER TO FORCE THE ISSUE...PIC DID THE RIGHT THING.
That's what he said. All you idiots that do not know what you are talking about READ IT. Winds are 20+ gusting to 34, He COULD NOT go around without a problem. It's justified. Fuck off.
TheMeslava 1 month ago
@xZepii I think you need help. I'm not wrong. I never said anything that was wrong. You people need a bit of education. No wonder people say teachers need to be paid more. I can see why.
TheMeslava 1 month ago
@TheMeslava See now you're appearing to be rather pathetic as you've changed the base of your argument to the faults of "us" and the entire teaching force in the U.S. That's rather sad as any teacher's shit makes more sense that your argument. Perhaps if you've continued to argue your stance on the video instead of calling me out and reporting me, maybe we could've actually agreed on something.
mrXirish 1 month ago
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TheMeslava 1 month ago
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TheMeslava 1 month ago
@TheMeslava it definitely is worse then calling someone out lol just quit trying to argue when you know your wrong... lol
xZepii 1 month ago
Typical American Airlines pilots... they're assholes.
samuelts 1 month ago
@mrXirish It's nice to know that you've been reported for using language like that in a simple discussion. It just proves how wrong you are when you can't talk decently.
TheMeslava 1 month ago
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mrXirish 1 month ago
@TheMeslava You told scuzzydirtbag to "fuck his top comment shit" and you told all of us "ignorant assholes" to grow up so I don't know why you're complaining about me when you swore as well in earlier posts. Don't get mad at other people for something you do to.
mrXirish 1 month ago
@RealTalkOnlyBro Flight Sim is a game... A game that aviation enthusiastic people should want to play. So I play it, it's fun. That's what a video game is. Flying is serious, and too much of it can be bad for your health as well.
Besides that fact, I said I was a pilot, not that I had a job flying. But I do know enough about aviation to read facts and reports... And I can say that the other persons comments were wrong when he said that I don't actually fly a plane, which is false.
TheMeslava 1 month ago
@TheMeslava 1. I never said you didn't fly a plane. 2. I never deleted that comment...you're still retarded. 3. It appears my interpretation of the flight report is different than yours...
mrXirish 1 month ago
they can barely communicate and hear each other and yall monkeeys think we went to the moon.
caessarion 1 month ago
The underlying reason a pilot is ultimately in charge is that they must always remember that the pilot is always the first to arrive at an accident.
Dutch2236 1 month ago
@mrXirish Did you even listen to the whole video? He said that he couldn't go around, and he needed that runway. The NTSB report for this says all the facts I commented and told you.
And also, just because I have a few flight sim videos on my account doesn't mean I don't fly a real aircraft, there is a video, actually 2 videos on my profile of me flying a real one, so don't sit here and tell me off like you think you know everything. Also, don't call me retarded like your deleted comment.
TheMeslava 1 month ago
@TheMeslava you should do overtime and get paid instead of playing Flight Sim :)
RealTalkOnlyBro 1 month ago
@fyadcorp How is that wrong? It's exactly what anyone would have done. Did you not read what happened?
TheMeslava 1 month ago
@TheMeslava no no no...the only reason that pilot did that was because he probably had a timetable to keep at JFK due to the U.S. airline industry being stressed to the limits. Stop saying all this kiss-ass stuff about SAFETY and "any pilot would have done it". That stuff goes without saying for anyone who actually flies a plane. We don't need flight simulator people like you here trying to act like authority.
mrXirish 1 month ago
How the hell did I get from makeup ideas to airplane pilots talking on the radio??? @_@
TayTayL0V3Ya 1 month ago
@scuzzydirtbag No he didn't. He was very professional and blunt. He told the controller what he wanted and NEEDED. That is as simple as it is. He had no ILS, the crosswind was out of his limitations, and he COULD NOT do a go around without being low on fuel. Would you want the pilot to keep flying around and wait for the controller to get him a turn and maybe run out of fuel?? I don't think so. Keep your mouth shut and fuck your top comment shit. Learn something people, maybe take a lesson.
TheMeslava 1 month ago
@TheMeslava wrong
fyadcorp 1 month ago
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mrXirish 1 month ago
@TheMeslava Stop acting like you're some sort of pro pilot just because you play microsoft flight simulator...we're all here just watching youtube so none of us really understand the full extent of what was happening. He also never said anything about fuel u tryhard
mrXirish 1 month ago
A number of years ago, I elected to land on a closed runway that was directly into a high wind (C-47) as opposed to landing on the active with a severe crosswind...No emergency, just pilot choice. Tower said ...Pilot Assumes Responsibilty..(It was night and rain).
In the case of American, he should have told them Minimun Fuel early on...if that was the case.
joe63383 1 month ago
see what you don't see in the video is that early in the flight this pilot was being vectored off course a few times due to weather and once he got to the field he was low on fuel, then the localizor on the ils goes out, thirdly the crosswind he was dealing with exceeded his landing limitations so he told atc that he needed 31r and if he didn't get it he would need to declare an emergency. This pilot is a hero for everything he had to deal with.
xangba23 1 month ago
That pilot was completely in line. Save lives and screw the rules and the idiot air controller!!!
kevenater 2 months ago
All you people that don't know how to fly, you have no idea what is going on. He NEEDS that runway, because he can't make a certain approach and go around safely without a fuel problem. Simply put, next time your ass is in the plane, remember that the pilots WANT to keep you safe, they will do what they need to do to get you down ,regardless of how it sounds to you ignorant assholes. Grow up.
TheMeslava 2 months ago
@TheMeslava ur fuckin retarded
mrXirish 1 month ago
Good pilot is the one that stays allive and keeps the passengers safe. Not the one that we read about in news "that crashed yesterday cuz of fuel shortage". Than all of you would judge stupid pilot that didn't declare an emergency and killed peopple and himself. There already was a story, when plane crashed in to a house in NYC Long Island, cuz he ran out of fuel.
vityok3000 2 months ago
The FAR's need to include an appendex stating proper etiquette when it comes to dealing with ATC matters. This is just creating unneeded tension in the air.
WickedWings07 2 months ago
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WickedWings07 2 months ago
It´s American Airlines for god sake. The pilots are dead tired and over worked and payed shit for what they do not to mention the rest of the crew. American Airlines, one star in Skytrax in 2011 and we working hard to loose that one. Avoid this airline at all cost.
Sooksawaspakdee961 2 months ago
@Sooksawaspakdee961 Paid shit? I'd debate that any day.
oAndJoegottago 2 months ago
@Sooksawaspakdee961 bad comment AA is the best ( BEST PILOTS )
MCHIBullDog 2 months ago
How many AMR pilots does it take to screw-in a lightbulb?
One.....he just holds it above his head, and the whole world revolves around him.
tiverton 2 months ago
What an complete ass! I guess runway 31L has your name written on it too huh?!
nascarfan154 2 months ago
What sort of new protocol is this? Don't declare minimum fuel when you
are burning up your reserves...let's wait until the situation becomes critical
and then start making ultimatums to ATC..."give me what I want NOW or I am declaring
an emergency". WTF is that?
This self absorbed jerk is in need of some signifcant attitude adjustments.
YOU are not the only one in the NY airspace, other pilots seem to be able to
mesh smoothly into the system without undue drama.
You should too. [asshat!]
eaterofclams 2 months ago 5
This pilot is such an ass!
Mickiemike1 2 months ago
First of all the radio procedures of this pilot are pretty bad. If he is min fuel he should have repeated that in every single radio call, same goes for the emergency, have to repeat it.
Once an emergency is declared the pilot gets control and he decides what happens, ATC will simply have to make it happen, they become advisory only. The switch from 22 to 31R is logic, it is quick and easy landing.
But....if you declare an emergency for the fun of it you are in deep shit.
mambo4269 2 months ago
Wow, look at all these Commercial Pilots and ATC's commenting on a YouTube video.
bhbrklyn 2 months ago
@bhbrklyn Yeah for FSX
finalcitrus 2 months ago
Pilot IS a dick. You don't threaten to declare an emergency just because you don't like the runway that ATC has directed you to. If you declare an emergency you damn well better have an emergency.
bkljal 2 months ago 5
hey kayback, as soon as apilot declares an emergency he has carte blanche! end of story
ret74pilot 2 months ago
@ret74pilot Declaring an emergency gives you ability to violate every rule in a book, but only in the interest of safety. That ability ends on a ground and is followed by investigation, in which, if you are found to not legitimately exercise emergency authority, you will not only have to answer for all broken rules, but may encounter new charges like ATC impairment.
Declaring Emergency doesn't give you a blank check to do whatever you want. You will have to prove its necessity at a later hour.
tiverton 2 months ago
It's all about the stupid Yankee idiot in the booth with the stupid accent. Noone can understand that nasal crap.
Get a real person in there.
mudball100 2 months ago
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izzyortiz18 2 months ago
hello, the boss is not in the ground, is in the air.
pavelavietor1 2 months ago 28
@pavelavietor1 TRUE THAT!
Trauncher 1 month ago
THE ATC should be fired and put into jail. When an emergency landing is declared they should be given priority over any operations to safely land the plane and close any inbound and outbound flights.
travelplus1 2 months ago
@travelplus1 You're a rated tower ATC are you? Or at least involved in tower control in some way?
I am.
Just because a pilot declares an emergency does not give him carte blanche to do what they want. It is meant to be a co-ordinated effort between the ATC, the PIC and other aircraft in the air. Your emergency must not endanger the lives of other air users.
If the PIC was that low on fuel he should have declared an emergency before that. He had to be deep in his reserves already
Kayback 2 months ago
Having declared an emergency with sufficient time it would not have ended up like that. Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
With a zone that sounded like there were a couple of other planes airborne, the ATC does need some time to move them out the way.
The pilot is the final responsibility for safety of his aircraft, but the other planes on frequency are the ATC's problem, and he does need to move them around.
Kayback 2 months ago
@Kayback Absolutely spot on!
mWongAero 2 months ago
PIC did the right thing here. They know their plane and what they can and cannot do. They are not going to risk the lives of their passengers or their equipment because the ATC wants them to make a bad approach. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.
topgun966 2 months ago
The pilot is the captain of his ship, period. Also, a controller should be mindful at all times of emergency contingencies, e.g. if this then that. The best controller will have contingencies two or three deep. It is something that should be practiced in the mind regularly for a variety of circumstances. It is piss poor performance, and ultimately unsafe, when a controller takes time to argue. At the very least, it is non-standard phraseology that has no place on a control frequency.
shortist2003 2 months ago
I keep hearing the same comments about the PIC having a good grip of the big picture... How on earth can a pilot know where other planes are in proximity to him? The ATC is obligated to accommodate the pilot in an emergency, but this should be a coordinated effort. Other planes in the area on final have to be moved to keep proximity requirements and so forth. In this case, from the audio, one aircraft has their approach cancelled to accommodate for AAL 2heavy.
lookingne 2 months ago 8
@lookingne cleared for the approach means you are cleared for the published approach. Seeing as how he was at 2000, he probably wasn't on final approach. You are not on final until you have landing clearance.
acherasover 1 month ago
@acherasover youre on final when you pass the final approach fix
donjo19 1 month ago
@donjo19 not true, what about a visual approach? Those don't have FAFs. And RNAV (GPS) approaches often are not even lined up with the runway.. you come down to your DA (or decision altitude), find the airport and land on the runway that, at your FAF you are [often] perpendicular to. You are on final approach when you are lined up with the runway, and plan on no other changes in direction, other than to correct your path onto the runway. And generally, cleared to land.
acherasover 1 month ago
@acherasover Very true and the majority of your responses are incorrect. Visual approaches aren't considered as instrument approaches. The majority of RNAV approaches are lined up with the runways and do not have a DA unless it is a LPV approach, they will have a MDA. VOR/NDB/SDF are various approaches that do not necessarily line up with runways. The final approach segment as defined by the IFH "begins at the FAF and ends at the MAP or landing".
donjo19 1 month ago
@donjo19 so then by your logic, only aircraft on instrument approaches have final approaches? And I stand corrected, I confused VOR/NDB/SDF approaches with RNAV approaches. However, RNAV approaches DO have DAs, even without it being an LPV approach. such as LNAV and VNAV approaches. And what is the IFH (instr. flying handbook?)? The FAR/AIM definition for FAF is "defines the beginning of the FA segment and the point where final segment descent may begin." You don't have to be IFR to be on final.
acherasover 4 weeks ago
@acherasover The logic I'm using is that of IFR. All airlines operate IFR, this is why I stated the final approach segment as per the flying handbook beginning at the FAF, even though we do Visual Approaches, we still do the published ILS approaches. And you're correct with the LNAV/VNAV.
donjo19 4 weeks ago
@donjo19 Well way to out yourself, you're not a commercial pilot. Airliners do not follow the published ILS approaches when on a visual. Visual approaches usually have you perpendicular to the approach course well before the IAF and IF. Meaning you wouldn't be following the same approach course. Maybe you're thinking of following the glide slope, but even then the FARs don't state that you have to be on the glide slope. You just can't see 4 red. Assuming there is a PAPI.
acherasover 2 weeks ago
@donjo19 I would agree with you BUT I would have to know what all the MDA"S LPV'S and all the rest mean to a person who has not been in an aircraft before
flammabletube 3 weeks ago
@lookingne The answer to your question: TCAS.
brumblerful 1 month ago
Air support within against the "United States" would be greatly appreciated by those cognizant, prepared and capable.
BillyJimOMFG 2 months ago
Meh, if a pilot wants to declare emergency then just pull the crash phone, file the paperwork and let FSDO handle it after the fact. There's no reason to get any type of attitude.
There could have been other factors aboard the aircraft to prompt the decision. The article implies he was emergency fuel. There's no cause for attitude on either end of this.
vaughnteper 2 months ago
In the case of Logistics 569, to me it seemed the ATC challenged her into taking the Greensboro approach,she had been diverted from her original destination which was 100 overcast to Greensboro which was also 100 overcast. The end result was she crashed into a house after a low Altitude alert. True, a lack of IFR skill may have played a part, but if you listen to the audio it's clear she wasn't comfortable with the situation and after ATC told her everyone was getting in, she reluctantly said ok
LWPD327 2 months ago
If the pilot is wrong in declaring an emergency, deal with it after he lands on whatever runway he wants. Let the FAA deal with him if he was violating procedures. To me with the wind out of 310 and he wants 31 ti land, that seems ideal and the best solution, given they had gusts to 35 and he had a fuel issue. I've only had my PPL for 2 years but i know there's no room for ego, either in the cockpit or in the tower. If I was a pass. on that flight, I would want my PIC to get WHATEVER he wanted..
LWPD327 2 months ago
My opinion is this 1st, the ATC needs to lose the attitude, the PIC is ultimately in charge of all souls and as such whatever he wants he should get regardless of his attitude- tone.A good example of ATC attitude is Logistics 569 crash.Pilot Marcia Salmons Keaton was diverted to Greensboro which was 100 overcast at the time, she really didn't want Greensboro but the ATC said "Everybody's getting into Greensboro" So she attempted. The result was she crashed after a low Alt alert. PIC & pass.died
LWPD327 2 months ago
THEY ASKED FOR RUNWAY 31 AND WERE VECTORED TO 22L WHERE THE ILS IS NOT WORKING ON 22L, WIND 310 AT 23 GUSTING TO 35 AND THEY ARE LOW ON FUEL...IT WOULD BE A TOUGH CROSSWIND LANDING, AND WHAT HAPPENS IF HE HAS TO GO AROUND? BETTER TO FORCE THE ISSUE...PIC DID THE RIGHT THING.
sparky739 2 months ago
Every Pilot knows when a aircraft declares he can do what ever he feels it safe if he thinks that the ATC is incompetent
TheWhaler98 2 months ago
After listening to this conversation again and finding out that the pilot falsified the emergency, it remains clear to me in my experience that this sort of selfish behavior and action only puts people's lives in danger. Thank you to the truly professional pilots. You guys make people like this stand out like a sore thumb!
smoverstreet1 2 months ago in playlist Atc
Do you people make good money ? If not get another job. Maybe a cop for example.
aerogrape 2 months ago
@aerogrape they do,, more than pilots..
afgrocks123 2 months ago
I have no problem with the pilot declaring an emergency, but he did display an unprofessional smart ass attitude.
scuzzydirtbag 2 months ago 12
@scuzzydirtbag agree 100%
9003187 2 months ago
@harrysonmiller132- I believe what you keep referring to is really "priority over other aircraft", not "priority over controllers". I would love for you to come watch us work some traffic sometime. I understand that your lives are in danger during an emergency. Please trust me when I say this: every single controller working knows just how much danger there is in flying. You can't be a controller and not work a LOT of emergencies. Yes, our job at that point is to assist you in any way possib
smoverstreet1 2 months ago
@smoverstreet1 Im curious, do you enjoy ATC work? Is it a bit like playing a video game or something? Im just curious because it must be something you like in order to deal with such a stressful work
BlackLabelSlushie 2 months ago
PIC was spot on. He brought her home in one piece, regardless of why he chose to do what he did. ATC can't fly the aircraft...they are only there for support but often they don't see the whole picture the way the PIC does. Conversely, the PIC can't always see everything the ATC sees...but he sure can hear it and create an instant mental image. PIC is always the one to make the final decisions. All things being equal, it would be absurd to go 22L instead of 31R when the wind is 310 at 23.
oceanjockey1000 2 months ago 3
This is one of those intense moments that was handled well by the PIC. The ATC handled it ok. I dont think he quite got the jist of the situation, which forced the PIC to declare an emergency to get the plane safely down. The main factor here I think was unexpected wind...
ScudRunnR 2 months ago
Just read the full story, looks like the emergency was they didn't have enough fuel for a go around, and the crosswind correction for that landing was beyond the published limits for the aircraft. Pilots are the final authority to the flight, so they had the right to do this. All they have to do, is write a letter to the administrative if one is requested. And judgement of the emergency really isn't in the FAR's. Personally, they felt they needed to, then they needed to. ATC handled it OK too.
jmitterii2 2 months ago
There was another flight years ago that kept getting shuffled and finally crashed in the Hamptons, (I think the Hamptons) but if fuel was the issue the pilot is right to declare emergency because ny atc is organized chaos in the best of times. They do a great job considering. It's not the pilot or atc who is at fault, it's the overburdened system.
18erhammerdown 2 months ago
@18erhammerdown Avianca Flight 52 is the flight you're thinking of. They kept getting shuffled from ATC to ATC and finally crashed in cove neck, ny when they ran out of fuel. The mistake they made was not finally saying "declaring an emergency, we're landing, get the fuck out of the way!". Instead they "played nice" and kept getting pushed around until the engines died.
gobo760 2 months ago
LOL you guys are strange. Agreed that if an aircraft is in distress and has declared an emergency then all priority goes to him and all the regulations are out of the window. Just bring down the aircraft safely. HOWEVER, a pilot can not declare an emergency if there is no real emergency onboard the aircraft, period. In this case he just did not want to use runway 22L and wanted 31R. Should be fired.
contemporarymonk 2 months ago
@contemporarymonk where did you obtain this information?
SilverOnemi 2 months ago
@contemporarymonk You are hearing the last 5 minutes of the flight. How do you know everything was fine? Whats to say that his fuel levels may have been dangerously low. That doing a missed approach, and approach all over again would put the flight in serious risk?
You don't, simple as that. It is the PICs choice to declare an emergency, he did, so ATC must comply
FightingFalc0n 2 months ago
@FightingFalc0n yeah... and you are not hearing it? "American 2 heavy cleared to land 22L". So he is cleared to land on 22L and then decides to use 31R when he is low on fuel? That makes no sence. Furhtermore, "heavy" means a long flight and they are required to carry an additional 45 minutes of fuel after landing. If he really did have a fuel emergency he should have declared "fuel emergency" a long time before, not on final. The reason he went emergency is because of the wind.
contemporarymonk 2 months ago
@contemporarymonk like i said, this is the last portion of the flight. Whats to say he hasn't had to divert from his original destination. Whats to say they didnt have some unexpected head winds, burning more fuel than they thought.
Yes he wanted to change runways because of the wind. But he never said that was the emergency. I dont know what it was, and you dont know what it was.
Oh and have a look at that link in the description
"too low on fuel to perform a new approach"
FightingFalc0n 2 months ago
What is he doing declaring an emergency? He states that he has visual on the RW, and therefore should be capable of performing an approach without ILS!
guyjos 2 months ago
what the hell is he declaring an emergency for, just because of the wind conditions
derekwall82 2 months ago
Since ATC keep telling him wind 310 @23 it makes 31 a pretty good choice of runway to land on!
R44ChopperII 2 months ago
Alota stuff goes on behind the scenes of ATC that no-one knows about!!!! risks are taken all the time
coco9439 2 months ago
One thing some people forget, if the ATC makes a mistake, the pilot is the one who dies....
ralphebrandt 2 months ago 2
I love it when you guys debate so professionally
Chris08TT 2 months ago
Absolutely this pilot was in the right. NYC ATC is quite often out of control. As another commenter said, when an aircraft declares an emergency, it is not at the convenience of ATN.
oldcatadjuster 3 months ago 2
What. A. Complete. Cock.
christoffNY 3 months ago
Maybe nature of emergency was fuel. Or crosswind/tailwind landing on 22L, with even a slightly poor technique could cause an aircraft overrunning the runway or maybe even to the left. I agree he should've stated the nature of emergency though.
TakingOverCAST 3 months ago
The Emergency onboard was fuel, this was a bad weather day in JFK and there was tons of heading deviations, Heading deviations are deviated paths from the Flight Plan, therefore costing fuel.
trechan 3 months ago
Hang on a minute, there must have been a reason for him declaring an emergency otherwise he would have been in deep shit with the company and it certainly would have been frowned on. His main duty was to get the aircraft on the ground. He told ATC that if he was given a particular instruction, he was unable to comply and would have to declare an emergency but doesnt state what the reason was, thats not to say there wasnt one so you should maybe read the full transcript or cut him some slack.
debiassi 3 months ago
@debiassi Fuel, thats the reason, before this flight, the pilot was constantly on heading deviations because of bad weather.HDG deviations cost fuel, if you don't meet the FAA requirements, then you are forced to declare an emergency whether the ATC likes it or not.
trechan 3 months ago
@trechan Yep, that makes sense. I knew there would be a valid reason.
debiassi 3 months ago
The pilot should be fired. Faking an emergency is not right.
mainerunner100 3 months ago
@mainerunner100 That wasn't faking, if you are low on gas and are not able to meet FAAs 45 minutes of fuel, you are forced to declare an emergency.
trechan 3 months ago
@mainerunner100 it wasnt a fake. You cant just get away with declaring an emergency. Tons of paperwork and investigation goes into why you declared the emergency.
cavok84 3 months ago
tower people r dumb ,dear godd,what is wrong with this people.?
tlemcenusa 3 months ago