Can Anarchists Support a Palestinian State?

[TheLordIdanZiegeL]

zionism is only demonized by arabs and muslim without even knowing what it means. it means only one thing: establishment of a jewish state in israel. that's it! in israel zionism is a blessing and warming word.

[SanguineBullet667]

zionism is pure evil

[anarksee]

No.Because statism - in any form - is anathema to the Anarchistic program.

[smmeegal]

Free-state lol

[anarchophilia]

I think one can fight against imperialism and not support any state.

[AaranAardvark]

Anarchists just like everybody else are confronted with compromises and contradictions. We cannot abolish the state we can only substitute its structures and work toward non-state solutions to local problems.

[Irtidad]

I would suggest to all to read Wayne Price's article "The Palestinian Struggle and the Anarchist Dilemma." It's in part a response to Uri Gordon's position as described in his book "Anarchy Alive!"

[Irtidad]

You can find it online in various places, I believe.

[AfricanPrince]

states are unethical because they do not involve the explicit consent of EVERY individual who will be considered subordinate to that state. I haven't watched the entire video, I admit. but I don't see how you can be pro-state and anarchist at the same time.

[buddhagem]

I'd really encourage you to watch the video. He answers it as well as anybody I've seen.

[ABEZH]

@buddhagem

Still couldn't escape the cognitive dissonance. You are beating a dead horse with this one. As an anarchist, one cannot support any state for some perceived short term benefits. This video is an excercise in absurdity.

[Sammaelhain]

@AfricanPrince

the same way you can be pro union and anti capitalist at the same time. life is not an all or nothing wager. sometimes change must come in increments

[ABEZH]

@Sammaelhain

Your analogy is false. A union is not to capitalism what a state is to another state.

[Sammaelhain]

@ABEZH

Declaring something false without actually supporting the assertion is not a rebuttal,much less an argument.

[ABEZH]

@Sammaelhain

I will not go into the trouble of elaborating on the obvious (not that youtube's wankish comment system would allow such an endeavour anyway).

[AfricanPrince]

I don't see how a consistent anarchist can support a Palestinate state as a temporary solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict anymore than an anarchist can support the existence of a 'dictatorship of the proletariat' as a temporary solution to capitalism, that's Marxism. What makes you think that all Palestinians want to live under the authority of any state, Israeli or Palestinian. What makes you think a Palestinian state couldn't violate human rights to the extent the Israeli one has. ALL

[ZullGostnu2]

comprise your principles show you had no principles. NO STATE is acceptable.

[dopeskies]

Fuck Zionist Israel Down with Zionism FREE PALESTINE

[Nederlandac]

Very nice.

[VaQm10]

Maximum respect and solidarity with Anarchist Against the Wall!

[Irtidad]

This guy makes fresh arguments for anarchism, I like that.

[Cres45]

Noam Chomsky has a very similar position:

Democracy Now April 3, 2009

AMY GOODMAN: Were just wrapping up right now, but I want to ask if you support a one- or two-state solution there?

[Cres45]

NOAM CHOMSKY: Nobody supports—I mean, you can talk about a one-state solution, if you want. I think a better solution is a no-state solution. But this is pie in the sky. If youre really in favor of a one-state solution, which in fact Ive been all my life—accept a bi-national state, not one state—you have to give a path to get from here to there. Otherwise, its just talk. Now, the only path anyone has ever proposed is through two states as the first stage.

[RevolutionaryJam]

hey gr8 timing!!!! there is a debate going on along here: watch?v=HotnTmLI7b4&feature=pl­ayer_profilepage

[oldhacks]

two state solution. while everyones talking "no state. and american jews are spending Millions on keeping the border moving..

[oldhacks]

bhuto was the JFK of the middle east. I imagine the CIA had some play in her assassination...

[mr1001nights]

What??? He supports a state??? That guy ain't an anarchist! How come he didn't mention the free market? The Israeli-Palestinian conflict just needs people to start trading apples and oranges

[spawk1993]

I know right, i mean, sense when does anarchism have anything to with with opposing the state?!?!?!?!

[spawk1993]

since*

[Rockerboy2007]

r u high?

[mr1001nights]

Yeah, there ain't no weed like free market weed, rockerboy

[organdva]

mr1001nights , you are missing the über alles supply and demand here. If Palestinians demand freedom it will be supplied to them. We must conclude then, that there is some kind of freedom scarcity on the market.

[mr1001nights]

Well, ok, ok, free trading may not be the only thing needed. Free market charity will do the trick though: I'm guessing a shipment of 30-40 thousand Ludwig von Mieses and Murray Rothbard books to the region will solve the conflict in a matter of hours.

[organdva]

In the end, I'm not sure there is justification for that. We must have open possibility of voluntary submission to the occupier. Who can calculate the cost benefit? The state? Maybe this charity will lead them to over-philosophize property rights to death.

[petermaquire]

organdva, you are missing the fact of state monopoly on the supply of freedom. Clearly everything would be jolly nice for the palestinians if freedom was supplyed by the private sector. Also, you are missing the fact that there is clearly much demand for oppression on the palestinian market. You can't force the palestinian consumer to buy freedom from freedom entrepenuers if they want to buy oppression from the IDF instead! That would be violent.

[organdva]

I must confess to you petermaquire. Yesterday I tried to sell 2x2 meters box full of free market freedom on eBay and nothing. My initial price was 1 kilogram of social security. People this days don't get the true values. Especially the kids around 20 years or so who don't support child labor. Disgusting.

[SocialAnarchism]

Not to mention a monopoly on violence.

[Propagandhi900]

The majority of Anarchist support communist, socialist and syndicalist economies.

Free Market Anarchy is not Anarchy, as capitalism is inherently authoritarian and maintains the hierarchical power structure that Anarchists are supposed to be against.

If you listened to him he didn't mention the free market, but he mentioned ABOLISHING capitalism.

[ZullGostnu2]

Communism, socialism and syndicalist economies all lead to authoritarianism. Just like Capitalism leads to authoritarianism. WAKE UP! The only way to avoid these traps is being willing to die to defend a stranger. Otherwise, the state will overwhelm your single defense. I propose a release of all moral or ethical constraints when defending a stranger at the cost of your life.

[Propagandhi900]

Someone hasn't heard of the Spanish Revolution.

[ZullGostnu2]

Spanish Revolution failed. When fighting your enemy, you must be more vicious than they. Look at the South during the Civil War, they could have taken Washington and New York. But they failed to do what was later done to them by Sherman. Some anarchist hide behind false moral constructs like NAP. I am fully aware of the Spanish revolution.

[Propagandhi900]

They won the revolution, they lost the civil war.

Read a book.

What economic system do you propose?

[ZullGostnu2]

I wish they won the Civil war really. I propose mutual aid and (capitalism) free trade, just no state. Currently anarchy is a failure. No system exists, unless you say Somalia. They knew how to be more vicious than the US and Ethiopians.

Any books you care to recommend?

I've not given up on Anarchy, just something needs to change to make it work. When Anarchy is ready, it will naturally take over the world by emergent order...everybody doing their own thing.

[Propagandhi900]

If the Anarchists in Spain won the civil war, according to you they would have eventually created a state.

Anarchy and capitalist are antithetical. Capitalism is inherently authoritarian, and would, in a stateless society, only bring about a new state, especially laissez faire.

Homage to Catalonia, the Communist Manifesto, Das Kapital, anything by Noam Chomsky, Statism and Anarchy (a work by Mikhail Bakunin) and What is Property? Or, an Inquiry into the Principle of Right and of Government.

[ZullGostnu2]

The Anarchist in Spain never considered themselves a state. I never considered them a state.

I've know about Chomsky for a long time. He is a poser. His career in language studies is a joke. He did nothing but rip apart everyone and anyone to keep his precious theories in tack. He hasn't a clue what makes speech work.

Capitalism and Communism as we know it are not compatible with anarchism. They are unstable. Be careful words are defined differently to everyone. Read those books.

[ZullGostnu2]

Ever read "Mein Kampf"? It is the end result of communism and capitalism. They get there in the end. Chomsky advocated the state.  As I said, he is a poser, a Charlatan..

Oh...democracy is a failure too, stop dreaming. Dictatorship of the majority is still a dictatorship.

Try reading a little Nietzsche.

[Propagandhi900]

Mein Kampf is Hitler's fascists policy.

Hitler's economy was based on corporatism and capitalism. Communism was not involved.

When/where did Chomsky advocate the state?

It doesn't literally mean a totalitarian regime. It just means that the proletariat runs the system so ideals are geared to wards the worker.

Neitzsche? I'd rather not go back there. It bores me.

[jianenohashi]

Brilliant!  Well said.

[TheBigHo111]

*****

[Chomskyan]

Very nice! He sees it very clearly.