Brians and Schonbergs relation was purely romantic and purely on a metaphysical plain. They went on Astral blind dates but never experienced the music of each other, for they were afraid of catching disease.
Do you have any of Ian Pace's recordings of not avant-garde piano music (Beethoven, Liszt, Alkan, Chopin, Bartók, etc.)?? His technique is insane and I bet he plays those pieces very well, but unfortunately I can't find any of those recordings...
I discovered this piece years ago at univ of miami and the score looks nothing like Schoenberg,too long for Webern.Dense,intense,clusters.Entire dialectic even sounds different.DEf could be expressionist but why guess? I need to do some research. so i cant talk with any familiarity : his intention,school or aesthetic.Wonder &Curiosity are a good place to start but they don't provide answers.People should research before comments.I adore Pace is alI I have a right to say.
To me Berg &Webern's piano music esp. are so diff from schoenberg i would not have guessed they studied with him unless i looked at the early small Orchestral "poems".I play the Webernvariationsand feel his humor& delicacy .I have notseriously studiedSchonberg(thoughI have the score to the pf.con)maybe that is why I see few links.There is a German "tendency "in this music you dont find inMessiaen,Boulez,Barraque,or theItalians.I adore Berio.MortonFelman seems closer to Schon than anyone.
i suspect Ian Pace is better live than in the studio-this is quite clinical and dry,i'm sure he'd play it with more rawness and physicality these days.
I hope he records English County Tunes -this he does wonderfully.
I don't believe Nicholas Hodges to possess the same raw, physical ability to perform such impossibly unplayable works as Ian Pace, while still being able to play with the precision and thought to phrasing that Pace can. But yes, Hodges is also a considerable talent.
John11inch: you're wrong to call this style 'New". It's a rehash of the tired old philosophy that Schoenberg began around 1908. Lemma-Icon-Epigram is already 28 years old: to put that in context, 28 years before Chopin's Funeral March Sonata was written Beethoven was still in his 'middle period', still to write 6 more piano sonatas, 3 more symphonies, 5 more string quartets, Missa Solemnis etc., followed by the entire output of Schubert. 28 years ago is NOT NEW, nor 101 years after Schoenberg.
I was very well aware of both A and B (being a professional composer myself who enjoyed regular drinks with Ferneyhough in an Oxfordshire pub years ago) and fully expected that dogmatic response from you! What you're obviously too tone deaf to hear is the extremely obvious difference between 'atonal' music and 'tonal' music, & Schoenberg's pivotal role in the development of the former. By the way, in 1908 Schoenberg didn't introduce serialism - that came later; please get your facts straight.
Your pithing response is both hilariously unprovoked and circumloquacious. If you are "well aware [that this has nothing to do with Schoenberg]", then would you please explain your comment that it is a "rehash of the ...philosophy that Schoenberg began". There seems to be a blatant error in your syllogism. Your comments in regard to any purported "tone deaf" people here is moot and not apropos, due to the fact that nobody has or is making any assertion that this piece of music is tonal [cont]
I would also gleefully note that the person who used the date of 1908 was you, and not me, although it seems as though you have a habit of attempting to argue with someone while arguing yourself, so this may not come as any surprise to you. If you are not referring to the compositional technique of Serialism, then to what do you refer? New Complexity music's defining aesthetic is the lack of repetition and the acknowledgment given to the constraints of the performer. [cont]
Or, are you saying that this is what Schoenberg was writing in 1908? I was under the impression that before he became a serialist, he wrote fairly uninspired, late Romantic music, e. g. Piano Concerto. Are you not aware of the differences between New Complexity and Serialism OR Romanticism? Oh wait, I forgot, you said Schoenberg and Ferneyhough were unrelated. [cont]
Would you be so kind as-to enlighten me to the composer that *did* invent Serialism? I, of course, know the answer, but you will get it wrong, so I am looking forward to that. Schoenberg, in fact, did not introduce Serialism what-so-ever; thusly you are the one that woefully needs to get your facts straight.
Now, I am in very regular correspondence with Brian Ferneyhough. Who should I tell him had such... interesting... things to say about his compositions?
Just mention the Black Prince in Old Woodstock and Brian will know. Of course you, Brian, Michael and the lot of you are completely crazy, as your manic responses prove (N.B. it was you that mentioned serialism not me, and if you're not aware of what Schoenberg did in 1908 you need to study harder). FYI I was a fellow student of Brian's under Lennox Berkeley. It seems to me you have a major psychological problem, but at least it makes arguing with you fun (Brian was a good deal more boring!)
There is nothing "manic" about my response. Would you like a definition of the word you're pitifully failing to use in any moderately appropriate fashion?
I am fully aware of what Schoenberg was doing in 1908. Why don't *you* tell me what he was doing, and how it relates to this piece. You have failed to note any correlations what-so-ever, simply name-dropping what may be the only composer of dissonant music you're aware of, considering the lack of knowledge you're spewing. [cont]
If my comments are "manic" because they are long, it is because you vomit so much shit from your lips that even concision requires what, to you, is apparently great elaboration.
Respond in a meaningful way, i.e. noting how this work is representative of something Schoenberg wrote in 1908, or be blocked.
I'm glad my intellect stimulates you; the feeling is not reciprocated. You lack the knowledge and diction to entertain me, so at least be useful and tell us what the fuck you're on about.
oye. i'm not sure what the original poster meant linking schoenberg to ferneyhough except i guess in reference to free atonality, which originated in his music ca. 1908-9. you don't have to be a schoenberg expert but there's no need to claim that you are. the piano concerto, though romantic in character, is a late (op. 42) and thoroughly twelve-tone work. as for his early atonal works i guess it's up for debate whether they're "uninspired" but i think they're his most inspired by a long shot.
Well, not having any idea what the original poster meant isn't exactly something to be proud of (as you're coming to his defense), when all that's required to read his remarks is scrolling down to the bottom of the screen and clicking "view all [insert number] comments".
Linking Ferneyhough to Schoenberg just because they both employed atonal techniques is ludicrous. Should I start saying that Richard Barrett is ripping off Beethoven because they both wrote piano pieces? [cont]
Please do not call into question my knowledge of Schoenberg. I never said the Piano Concerto Op. 42 was an early work; I *likened* it to his early works, which were heavily Romantic in influence. I have played this work; I believe I am thusly aware of the facts you are presenting as if I did not know them.
You know. I believe Mozart's 40th Symphony had a brief episode of eleven-tone Serialism. Shall we accuse Boulez of ripping him off, now?
i'm not coming to his defense, i'm coming to schoenberg's. i said i don't understand the poster's intention because i don't see the schoenberg-ferneyhough connection either, and he just made the statement without explaining it. i was just trying to clear up the schoenberg thing, because you used op. 42 as an example while discussing his music before serialism. and also dissed some of my favorite music, schoenberg's opp. 11-23.
but obviously you are vastly more intelligent than i, so, cheers.
I am unaware of the implications you intended to make with the comment regarding our comparative intelligence, so I will not comment beyond this on that subject.
And I now understand the reasoning behind your post more. I did not intend for the implication to be made that I believed his Piano Concerto Op. 42 to be an "early piece"; I merely was comparing it aesthetically to the music I was/am under the impression that he was referencing. Also, I very-much like Op. 23.
Linking Ferneyhough to Schoenberg just because they both used atonal techniques would indeed be ludicrous, but Ferneyhough's style is, in fact, rooted in the expressionist period Schoenberg & Webern as well as in the big Stockhausen pieces of the late 50's & early 60's. If you want to hear Ferneyhough writing the expressionist Webern large, just listen to the comparatively early Sonatas & Interludes for string quartet. In that sense, Lemma-Icon-Epigram is ultimately descended from Schoenberg.
Yes, I mean Ferneyhough's Sonatas for String Quartet. (I don't know how I got the title wrong: I bought the Berne Quartet recording a quarter of a century ago and own the study score.)
Ian Pace is without a doubt a great pianists and has an enormous repertoire. I had just recently heard him play Hoban's 'when the panting Starts' and found the performance to be brilliant. There is nothing this man cannot play.
No Ferneyhough score can be played "perfectly" as written, although such virtuosos as the extraordinary Mr. Pace may be able to hit all of the right notes. Ferneyhough's rhythms are notated with a finicky intricacy beyond the reach of even the best human ears to grasp precisely. Obviously, the approximations we hear in performance convey the music well enough.
Brilliant!
faroenmano 4 months ago
Brians and Schonbergs relation was purely romantic and purely on a metaphysical plain. They went on Astral blind dates but never experienced the music of each other, for they were afraid of catching disease.
Hero0fSilence 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Unless I am mistaken, no recordings of Ferneyhough's music are listed in the Penguin Guide to Recorded Classical Music 2010. Discuss.
MisterSimnock 1 year ago
Do you have any of Ian Pace's recordings of not avant-garde piano music (Beethoven, Liszt, Alkan, Chopin, Bartók, etc.)?? His technique is insane and I bet he plays those pieces very well, but unfortunately I can't find any of those recordings...
madlovba2 1 year ago
I discovered this piece years ago at univ of miami and the score looks nothing like Schoenberg,too long for Webern.Dense,intense,clusters.Entire dialectic even sounds different.DEf could be expressionist but why guess? I need to do some research. so i cant talk with any familiarity : his intention,school or aesthetic.Wonder &Curiosity are a good place to start but they don't provide answers.People should research before comments.I adore Pace is alI I have a right to say.
lovesGenet 1 year ago
Thank you so much for posting this.
bogorzelak 1 year ago
To me Berg &Webern's piano music esp. are so diff from schoenberg i would not have guessed they studied with him unless i looked at the early small Orchestral "poems".I play the Webernvariationsand feel his humor& delicacy .I have notseriously studiedSchonberg(thoughI have the score to the pf.con)maybe that is why I see few links.There is a German "tendency "in this music you dont find inMessiaen,Boulez,Barraque,or theItalians.I adore Berio.MortonFelman seems closer to Schon than anyone.
lovesGenet 1 year ago
beautiful playing, John11Inch, why are you so angry ? This is a great piece, stop the arguing guys, get over it !
helenrushful 2 years ago
Why would you assume I'm angry? I have to be angry to disagree with someone?
Perhaps you shouldn't tell me what to do; why so authoritative?
John11inch 2 years ago
Pace is just amazing. It can't be said enough.
flammesombres 2 years ago
i suspect Ian Pace is better live than in the studio-this is quite clinical and dry,i'm sure he'd play it with more rawness and physicality these days.
I hope he records English County Tunes -this he does wonderfully.
japanesesweet 2 years ago
I don't believe Nicholas Hodges to possess the same raw, physical ability to perform such impossibly unplayable works as Ian Pace, while still being able to play with the precision and thought to phrasing that Pace can. But yes, Hodges is also a considerable talent.
John11inch 3 years ago
John11inch: you're wrong to call this style 'New". It's a rehash of the tired old philosophy that Schoenberg began around 1908. Lemma-Icon-Epigram is already 28 years old: to put that in context, 28 years before Chopin's Funeral March Sonata was written Beethoven was still in his 'middle period', still to write 6 more piano sonatas, 3 more symphonies, 5 more string quartets, Missa Solemnis etc., followed by the entire output of Schubert. 28 years ago is NOT NEW, nor 101 years after Schoenberg.
josepharimathea 3 years ago
Dumbest comment with good grammar I've ever received =D
A- This has nothing to do with Schoenberg. It's not serialist.
B- "New Complexity" is the name of the school of composition Brian Ferneyhough belongs to. As well as Finnissy, Dench, Barrett etc.
John11inch 3 years ago
I was very well aware of both A and B (being a professional composer myself who enjoyed regular drinks with Ferneyhough in an Oxfordshire pub years ago) and fully expected that dogmatic response from you! What you're obviously too tone deaf to hear is the extremely obvious difference between 'atonal' music and 'tonal' music, & Schoenberg's pivotal role in the development of the former. By the way, in 1908 Schoenberg didn't introduce serialism - that came later; please get your facts straight.
josepharimathea 3 years ago
Your pithing response is both hilariously unprovoked and circumloquacious. If you are "well aware [that this has nothing to do with Schoenberg]", then would you please explain your comment that it is a "rehash of the ...philosophy that Schoenberg began". There seems to be a blatant error in your syllogism. Your comments in regard to any purported "tone deaf" people here is moot and not apropos, due to the fact that nobody has or is making any assertion that this piece of music is tonal [cont]
John11inch 3 years ago
I would also gleefully note that the person who used the date of 1908 was you, and not me, although it seems as though you have a habit of attempting to argue with someone while arguing yourself, so this may not come as any surprise to you. If you are not referring to the compositional technique of Serialism, then to what do you refer? New Complexity music's defining aesthetic is the lack of repetition and the acknowledgment given to the constraints of the performer. [cont]
John11inch 3 years ago
Or, are you saying that this is what Schoenberg was writing in 1908? I was under the impression that before he became a serialist, he wrote fairly uninspired, late Romantic music, e. g. Piano Concerto. Are you not aware of the differences between New Complexity and Serialism OR Romanticism? Oh wait, I forgot, you said Schoenberg and Ferneyhough were unrelated. [cont]
John11inch 3 years ago
Would you be so kind as-to enlighten me to the composer that *did* invent Serialism? I, of course, know the answer, but you will get it wrong, so I am looking forward to that. Schoenberg, in fact, did not introduce Serialism what-so-ever; thusly you are the one that woefully needs to get your facts straight.
Now, I am in very regular correspondence with Brian Ferneyhough. Who should I tell him had such... interesting... things to say about his compositions?
John11inch 3 years ago
Just mention the Black Prince in Old Woodstock and Brian will know. Of course you, Brian, Michael and the lot of you are completely crazy, as your manic responses prove (N.B. it was you that mentioned serialism not me, and if you're not aware of what Schoenberg did in 1908 you need to study harder). FYI I was a fellow student of Brian's under Lennox Berkeley. It seems to me you have a major psychological problem, but at least it makes arguing with you fun (Brian was a good deal more boring!)
josepharimathea 3 years ago
There is nothing "manic" about my response. Would you like a definition of the word you're pitifully failing to use in any moderately appropriate fashion?
I am fully aware of what Schoenberg was doing in 1908. Why don't *you* tell me what he was doing, and how it relates to this piece. You have failed to note any correlations what-so-ever, simply name-dropping what may be the only composer of dissonant music you're aware of, considering the lack of knowledge you're spewing. [cont]
John11inch 3 years ago
If my comments are "manic" because they are long, it is because you vomit so much shit from your lips that even concision requires what, to you, is apparently great elaboration.
Respond in a meaningful way, i.e. noting how this work is representative of something Schoenberg wrote in 1908, or be blocked.
I'm glad my intellect stimulates you; the feeling is not reciprocated. You lack the knowledge and diction to entertain me, so at least be useful and tell us what the fuck you're on about.
John11inch 3 years ago
oye. i'm not sure what the original poster meant linking schoenberg to ferneyhough except i guess in reference to free atonality, which originated in his music ca. 1908-9. you don't have to be a schoenberg expert but there's no need to claim that you are. the piano concerto, though romantic in character, is a late (op. 42) and thoroughly twelve-tone work. as for his early atonal works i guess it's up for debate whether they're "uninspired" but i think they're his most inspired by a long shot.
minirausch 3 years ago
Well, not having any idea what the original poster meant isn't exactly something to be proud of (as you're coming to his defense), when all that's required to read his remarks is scrolling down to the bottom of the screen and clicking "view all [insert number] comments".
Linking Ferneyhough to Schoenberg just because they both employed atonal techniques is ludicrous. Should I start saying that Richard Barrett is ripping off Beethoven because they both wrote piano pieces? [cont]
John11inch 3 years ago
Please do not call into question my knowledge of Schoenberg. I never said the Piano Concerto Op. 42 was an early work; I *likened* it to his early works, which were heavily Romantic in influence. I have played this work; I believe I am thusly aware of the facts you are presenting as if I did not know them.
You know. I believe Mozart's 40th Symphony had a brief episode of eleven-tone Serialism. Shall we accuse Boulez of ripping him off, now?
John11inch 3 years ago
i'm not coming to his defense, i'm coming to schoenberg's. i said i don't understand the poster's intention because i don't see the schoenberg-ferneyhough connection either, and he just made the statement without explaining it. i was just trying to clear up the schoenberg thing, because you used op. 42 as an example while discussing his music before serialism. and also dissed some of my favorite music, schoenberg's opp. 11-23.
but obviously you are vastly more intelligent than i, so, cheers.
minirausch 3 years ago
I am unaware of the implications you intended to make with the comment regarding our comparative intelligence, so I will not comment beyond this on that subject.
And I now understand the reasoning behind your post more. I did not intend for the implication to be made that I believed his Piano Concerto Op. 42 to be an "early piece"; I merely was comparing it aesthetically to the music I was/am under the impression that he was referencing. Also, I very-much like Op. 23.
John11inch 3 years ago
Linking Ferneyhough to Schoenberg just because they both used atonal techniques would indeed be ludicrous, but Ferneyhough's style is, in fact, rooted in the expressionist period Schoenberg & Webern as well as in the big Stockhausen pieces of the late 50's & early 60's. If you want to hear Ferneyhough writing the expressionist Webern large, just listen to the comparatively early Sonatas & Interludes for string quartet. In that sense, Lemma-Icon-Epigram is ultimately descended from Schoenberg.
TassiloDavid 1 year ago
I think you just mean the Sonatas for String Quartet. No such thing as the "Sonatas and Interludes for String Quartet".
I uploaded the piece yesterday.
John11inch 1 year ago
Yes, I mean Ferneyhough's Sonatas for String Quartet. (I don't know how I got the title wrong: I bought the Berne Quartet recording a quarter of a century ago and own the study score.)
TassiloDavid 1 year ago
@TassiloDavid yeah right
bloozie599 1 year ago
Pace has got a massive technique - one of the best around.
5tgb6yhn5tgb 3 years ago
Dial-a-pianist plays this, Mr. HPopcorn!
BachScholar 3 years ago
Ian Pace is without a doubt a great pianists and has an enormous repertoire. I had just recently heard him play Hoban's 'when the panting Starts' and found the performance to be brilliant. There is nothing this man cannot play.
scriabinwasmydad 3 years ago
crisp performance. thanks.
iwanttowatchsomethin 3 years ago
nice piece, is he playing all the right notes, seems a bit fast, rushed,this is from the CD I imagine
herma57 3 years ago
No Ferneyhough score can be played "perfectly" as written, although such virtuosos as the extraordinary Mr. Pace may be able to hit all of the right notes. Ferneyhough's rhythms are notated with a finicky intricacy beyond the reach of even the best human ears to grasp precisely. Obviously, the approximations we hear in performance convey the music well enough.
TassiloDavid 1 year ago