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From: TheYoungTurks
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  • "So waterboard the kids for fun, it's all the rage - and be a born again american resistance is the game"

  • I have to ask, what would happen if we lose a whole city of thousands, people you loved. You later found out Achmed knew about it and because no water boarding allowed , he did not give the information. He smiles at you. To top it off if you are one of the soldiers who loses control and hits him You go to the stockade for 15 years. Right now that is what they are doing laughing at us as they plan the next attack. Knowing full well they are not going to be stopped

  • I have to ask, what would happen if we lose a whole city of thousands, people you loved. You later found out Achmed knew about it and because no water boarding allowed , he did not give the information. He smiles at you. To top it off if you are one of the soldiers who loses control and hits him You go to the stockade for 15 years. Right now that is what they are doing laughing at us as they plan the next attack. Knowing full well they are not going to stop

  • It doesn't matter what they do. Not one bit.

    This shit should have NEVER happened in this country. EVER... Not for some obscure moral principle, but because the American people do not endorse it. They do not allow it. It was hidden from them. If we were all in favor of waterboarding, I would be okay with going along with it, in deference to our democratic principles, but ONLY if the people allow it, honestly, transparently.

    Personally, though... I vote "NO". Torture is unamerican.

  • @ParrhesiaJoe we use water torture training on our own navy seals, if we use a torture that dont hurt or mame the prisoner and it gets the info needed to save lives then I say use it. What would you use to get info, keep the cupcake off his meal?

  • @68chargerlover If we want to torture, as a nation, I have no problem with rigging up an electric ball-cuff on the bastards. But the "we want to torture" must be an explicit mandate from the American people...

    As flawed as representational government is, it has not authorized our executive to waterboard. The people are against it, so we must not do it.

    The alternative is to let the executive have the discretion as to what they can and cannot do. That is tyranny.

  • @ParrhesiaJoe Then whats the other recourse? do we refuse them cupcakes with their meal if they dont tell us the information on the strikes against our soldiers or where they plan to strike the USA or other countries? there are too many bleeding hearts out there, let the military or CIA or FBI do their jobs. I say if its going to save lives then torture them to get the info.

  • @68chargerlover This is a question of the extent to which the government can exercise its authority. Questions of this sort must always be guided by the will of the people. Letting the government do what "It judges to be necessary" has always lead to disaster. We not shy from the idea that torture may be justified under some circumstances, but neither can we allow the government to make such decisions in smoke filled room.

    We vote no on waterboarding, so we must not waterboard.

  • @ParrhesiaJoe I bet your the same guy who wants to sue a house owner whos house gets broken into by a burgler and the burgler gets hurts triping over somthing. Give terrorists a hilton to be in and fluff their pillow. Gee I wonder how China or Russia would treat them. Please tell me how do you get info about future terrorist attacks from these people, maybe ask nicely.And I wonder if they make a fuss about how they treat our soldiers they may have hostage,i'm sure they dont torture our guys?

  • Yeah, we use the same torture tactics.... Yep! We hang and stone women for adultery, arrest and kill homosexuals and sponsor terrorists who decapitate people while chanting God is great.

    Yes, we are just like Iran!

    You guys are loons.

  • @BorislavX actually you have sponsored iraque when they were fighting with iran... You may not have killed homosexuals, but there are states in the usa that even in modern days had sodomy laws. I don't wanna claim you are just like iran, but is it really an achievement to be better than iran human rights wise? Most countries should be way beyond that anyway. It's like an adult scientist being proud of knowing more than a baby.

  • First of all, for those who talk shit about Iran's (Persia) human rights, read up on Cyrus the Great my little friends.

    Second I want to point out, USA has to stop criticizing other countries for their actions, besides the fact that USA is a hypocrite, is because not all countries are suppose to be the same... that's the main reason why many people fled to this country... So STFU and fix the problems that are happening here.

  • Fun & fantastic..lol

    But yea it's terrible no matter who does it to who...m

  • Talk about torture?

    What about ABU GRAHIB, GUANTANAMO AND LITHUANIA????

  • fuck usa

  • The fact is that torture does not work. Look at how we got Saddam, we bonded with local elders in Kirkuk and they gave us the info.Now to your point on women being stoned for sodomy. Well guess wat? ur right those countries are not secular, meaning there is not separation between church and state, thus islamic law=civil law. That is different to wat America is. So when you say that America is justified to use torture, then u are putting them in the same league with the other nations u mentioned

  • whatever, anybody can think of an instance where it'd be appropriate to harm one person to stop them from harming many. that's such an incredibly simple moral question.

  • Alright so you say that Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia use torture as interrogation. Well guess wat they do but now so does the U.S., they just call it enhanced interrogations. So wtf they are doing the same things as America and suddenly they are the bad guys. Another thing is that America trys to be the good guy, the one with "higher ethical standards." I don't know how torture fits into that but the fact is that if torture is so effective, y don't we have Bin laden yet?

  • You know, they dont put bamboo under their nails. There is legal torture which is so horrible, it's beyond belief.

  • We now are no longer the moral authority on the matter, which is why we should never have done it in the first place. It's up to someone else to condemn waterboarding now. Even if we don't do it "now," it's still far too recent for the US to be in the driver's seat on this.

  • Hang on hang on - America is often hypocritical with their foreign policy. For example its ok to have missiles in Turkey and Europe (during the cold war) but the USSR cant have anything near America (Cuban missile crisis). Its ok for America to illegally invade countries, but Russia can't even though they were asked to help. Its ok for the US to kill 100,000s of innocent people (Vietnam and Iraq etc etc) using inhumane weapons but 9/11 is the real crime??!!?!

  • @pubuman America is also the only country to actually use WMDs and they used it on civilians.

  • @pubuman well said.

  • Are you all stupids or something? It doesn't matter witch torture is less or more painfull, it's torture and should be banned. That's it. You consider an action wrong and then you do the same? Spock would say that's not logic...

  • Many of these POW's we have in custody live a better life, are fed better, in our prison camps than they were as "soldiers" fighting for groups like Al Queda. SO no I am sorry, by comparison, its NOT true torture!

  • All of these things have been experienced by US POW's since WWI all the way up to Vietnam. Several civilian hostages experienced some of these things in places like Syria and Iraq as recently as a year ago or so. Chinese government still does some of these things to their own people, Saddam did these things to his own people, Iran does these things to its own people. Water boarding is a fucking cake walk by comparison.

  • "Water boarding is a fucking cake walk by comparison."

    I somewhat agree.

    BUT ITS STILL TORTURE !

    "The lesser of two evils principle is today most commonly used in reference to electoral politics, particularly in Western nations, and perhaps in the United States more than anywhere else." Wikipedia

    let me guess, your from the US, right ?

  • Im from Canada and I agree that water boarding is more like very unpleasant treatment. At worst its soft torture. All your body parts stay attached to you so it aint that bad. When I hear torture, I think about cutting fingers, letting someone bleed while filling him with blood or beating someone with a pipe or a whip.

  • So slowly killing someone (which is what water boarding is) isn't torture?

  • Not if America does it.. :)

  • The only problem with the american waterboarding thing is that we knew about it.

  • Anal rape, that's torture, having your fingernails ripped out one by one, that's torture, being exposed to dangerous and or lethal chemicals, that's torture, being infected with potentially deadly diseases, that's torture, having your skin slowly sliced away from various parts of your body, that's torture, having your balls attached to a battery, that's torture.

  • Waterboarding, that's torture.

  • And of course, Cheney and all the cronies in the Bush administrators are going to stand against it.

  • @ 18mym81

    so what does your experience with waterboarding have to do with anything? Just cuase you went through it doesn't mean your opinion is fact. It IS torture, regardless what you say, or what you thought about it as it was happening to you.

  • Water boarding is not torture, I have experienced it when I was in Air Force ROTC! We had an option to experience interrogation techniques and almost all of us chose to do it!

  • hmmmmm I love the smell of bullshit in the morning.

  • Yeah, say that after the 200th time.

  • Hey, did you know?! All my friends volunteered to have our nails ripped out with steak knives! I guess it's not torture!

  • How can this be verified? How do we know this isn't a CIA agent? Some random person can make this up... TYT I thought you were better then this..

  • water boarding compared to what iran regime does in its prisons is a joke!

  • Palin was the choice that they gave me, Palin was the choice that they gave me XD

  • id vote palin if she'll blow me

  • Waterboarding is a water sport

  • I love it.

    The Wide World of Water Boarding

  • .. oh, but we can't look back .. we must turn the page .. let's just forget about the nice Ahmadenejad 'administration' torturing .. after all, we must look forward and not back

    .. (hahrum!!)

  • most of the iran torture claims arnt any evidence of institutionalised torture in iran which iran does not allow but rare circumstantial occasions usuall by irreguler forces

    id still be scepticle of torture claims made though its true those detained recently have been treated quiet roghly a lot of them

  • ROFL, you used "then" instead of "than" in your own nick!

  • Seriously the US is as hypocritical as they are democratic. Like words can't express the degree of hypocracy.

    Really think they need to take the advisory stand point rather then the authoritive cause they will never be taken seriously when actions differ from their words.

  • the guy on the right is an ass

  • These protests aren't going to change anything! Ahmadinjad is still in power and and the ayatollah is still the true and supreme leader! This mousvi guy needs to concede defeat and end this madness! All the lives that were lost are all because of him!!!

  • You dont know what you are saying....

    This is not about Mohsavi, he was just a spark that the people needed.

    The real madness is the currect Iranian government. I am Iranian so i know what im saying.

    PLUS you just dont concede defeat when lives have already been lost. Thats a big slap in the face to the families of lost loved ones.

    Conceding defeat and giving up is the easy route and it is how governments of the world keep their people in check...

  • well what are they gonna di? tell me? they don't have any weapons of any kind and they basically have shit compared to the noble Besij and the Heroic security forces. these troopers risked there lives because they know that the Ahmadinjad Govt and the Ayatollah are the real leaders of Iran!!! Mohsvi is the one who started this buy calling for mass protests on the streets when he clearly lost!!

  • You wont win without a civil war, or at least sharp and decisive killing spree of the current leadership.

  • What are you saying, tommysch? Exactly what? Be specific!

  • I mean a purge, hang the Ayatollahs, the high ranking members of the Police, the revolutionary guards and the Basij. You round them up, then you give them a 15minutes long ''trail'' and you send them before the firing squads.

  • Tommysch could u make it at all more obvious ur a trigger happy neocon?

    Seriously does even the slightest glimmer of rationality even cross your mind?

    I wont dignify your comment with even a response cause I know you will have none of it.

    God... Its always the conservatives from different nations that fight one another.

  • don't worry america, the Kingdom will hold thm accountable, if we had a good prime minister!!!

  • evry fukin country uses torture tactics on pisoners etc. tha only thing is that if u do it dont get caught but like evry country that has a power gets caught bcuz they r showing u they caant run their own fukin country

  • 13 spelling mistakes... How can we take your comment seriously?

  • MAYBE BY SUCKING ON A COCK

  • no news there, they only been trained by CIA...

  • US used and uses many other torture methods also, so in a way americans are quite more advanced in this field.

  • You're not looking at the total picture.

    The issue isn't waterboarding.

    The issue is that Iran is doing it not as a means to get intelligence to hopefully save people's lives but to oppress it's own people.

    You see you just don't get it.

    By getting people to confess things that never happened is a way for the present government to justify their killing people who want to change the country by peaceful methods It's the killing of these individuals that is wrong not the waterboarding..

  • lol so true.

  • I love how Cenk makes it seem like they only waterboard over there. That's just a warmup. They've executed people on camera by chopping their heads off just to prove some point to us. Waterboarding is nothing compared to everything else that's ever been used ever.

  • and america has electricuted people to death.

  • It's not just that.

    There is a connection between the waterboarding and the actions you describe.

    They get people to confess to crimes they didn't commit and then use that as justification to get rid of their opposition in the ways you describe.

    Bush used it as a means to get intelligence to make this country safe from attack.

    Whether it worked is a different issue.

    The point is Bush was trying to save lives and in Iran they were using it to kill people.

  • Set aside what you believe the endall objective was during the Bush Era and in Iran, the result was still the same: false info was obtained, and the Bush admin., despite being aware that the info was fake, associated Iraq with 9/11.

  • Close.. Bush used it to get false confessions as well so he could justify attacking Iraq. Security interest my ass. It was about something else all over. They wanted to attack Saddam even before 9/11, never forget that detail.

  • Saddam was a mad man and everyone knew that.

    The intelligence on how much a threat he was, was not correct butt that intelligence did not come by using waterboarding.

    If you remember the reason people gave for their opposition to waterboarding was that it was torture and therefore inhumane not the fact these people were being interrogated.

    In Iran even Interrogating these people.would have been wrong.

    The only thing they did was to try to win an election.

  • Sure he was a mad man, but not a threat to anyone but his own people.

    Torture in American prisons happened before the invasion into Iraq and Bush did make the link between 9/11 and Iraq based on intelligence obtained from a detainee. Just google "torture timeline".

    The reason was not just the fact it was inhumane, but also damaging to the US rep. in the world and that it isn't working. Also that wrong intelligence was obtained on purpose and that the subjects have never been charged with a crime

  • it isnt????!

  • IRAN IS A MESS

  • People have been making this point since the begining... heck they've been making it since before they intiated these laws on torture 60 years ago.

  • Tell me you're kidding. Iran only has need for a tiny little bit of government reform and we need "miles and miles"?

    What planet are you on?

  • I'm sorry to answer that question we have to live in the same universe, not just the same planet

  • No silly, I'm Iranian myself. My comment was in response to another Iranian who said waterboarding is the least of Iran's problems and that the Americans should not compare: I said: They (Americans) need to fix their government (American government) too, if only by a few inches in comparison to the miles and miles ours (Iranian government) has to go.

  • Of course America can vindicate Iran for torturing... all you have to do is put the Americans that tortured prisoners on trial.

  • like should have happened in the first place.

  • Any country who says, "We don't torture" are liars and hypocrites. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong.

  • This is ridiculous, waterboarding is soft. The Iranians already fired live rounds at their own citizens. They threw some off bridges, they broke bones with clubs. So how is water boarding revelant compared to gunning down protesters?

  • It's very relevant, but if you don't already see it you never will and it's a waste of time explaining it to you.

  • The Iranian protester had it coming anyway. They were dumb to think that they could achieve change in a non violent process. They should have organized death squads in the first day of the uprising. They could have executed most members of the current ruling elite and took over the country.

  • You should go over there and teach them how it's done.

  • Isn't that strange that all those successful ar quasi-successful neolib projects (like DailyKos, HuffPost, Young Tits) turn out to be really pro-war after all?

    HuffPost is the main propaganda post in the case of supporting the CIA-sponsored Iranian riots, they announce a new offensive in Afghanistan with so much fanfare, etc.

    I don't have to talk about other neolibs. The case is obvious.

  • Anybody in his right mind is pro-war... Im not a liberal btw.

  • Yeah... Iran tortures as we do...:)

    I'm starting to believe that as I believe what that CIA stooge Nico Pitney says... :)

    Neocons say: let's bomb Iran, let's torture enemies.

    Neolibs say: ehhh, they torture, too... Let's have CIA orchestrate regime change.

    That's how the machine works.

  • "they've already declared water boarding fun and fantastic..." Lol, you guys.

    "We thought them a lot about democracy."

    I always found it particularly amusing to listen to the mullaah's call the American government evil and vice versa, and then watch both sides do the same things.

  • i'm 16 and i just really want to know

    what is WATERBOARDING?

    someone please  reply :)

  • Waterboarding is when they plug your nose, and pour water down your mouth. You get a feeling of drowning, but much worse.

  • it's restraining someone, placing a cloth over their face and pouring water over the cloth

    they tried it on a few fbi agents and they lasted 18 seconds tops, the known record is 2 minutes

  • when u take a shower next time put your face direct on the water pouring down and try to hold ure breathing. should be an example of waterboarding...

  • Cenk is right on in this video.

  • Only powerhungry nations can trick themselves into believing water is better used to torture people than help them.

  • word life!

  • I dig your comment. Is it a quote.. if so by whom?

  • Where i come from psycho/social abuse is the torture of choice. They could completely ruin a child without ever leaving a single mark or breaking a single bone. RIP MJ.

  • iran does not give a shit

  • 0:55 - Exactly! Obama is such a wimp!

  • we should drop a big ass bomb on their ass like we did too japan.....

  • Yeah, because that wouldn't have horrible consequences =P

  • No it would not, do you really think the russian will give a shit if we tell them fist. We just need to give them a geopolitical compensation. Nobody gives a shit about the people of Iran.

  • Sounds like you're a bit of a terrorist yourself. Care to volunteer to get bombed? :D

  • yeah like all the republicans skin heads and nazis, who shoot cops, and doctors

  • like bush and cheney was so good, cheney started a war for haliburton

  • Don't worry about the waterboarding, worry about the BEHEADING and STONING TO DEATH going on in Iran.

  • I'd rather have a quick beheading then a slow waterboarding though if I was in that situation.

  • Well I'd rather be waterboarded if they weren't going to kill me and just torture me...Unless they were going to hold me for years and just keep doing it then just kill me

  • The point is not that Iran is using Waterboarding, it's that the US cant morally say a damn thing to stop them, because the US also used waterboarding.

    The only thing that could make this situation more delicious is if an American was waterboarded in Iran. Ohhhhh I can feel myself getting hard just imagining that media shitstorm. The government would have NO idea which way to go with that.

  • They probably did (or are doing) with those British reporters they're still holding. Media's keeping nice and quiet about that, gotta wonder why they're not going nuts speculating about that like they usually do.

  • whatever great scientific and technological advancements the people of Iran have made are overshadowed by the archaeic ignorance and duplicity of its "elected" officials who opt only for self gain and spoils.

    America can be viewed in the same light.

  • i'm sure some intelligence agencies have the secret go ahead from obama to do this stuff where people dont know it. obama made a show to convince the rest of the world but everyone else knows this.

  • America steeps to a new low, drags down a innocent country which has nothing to do with torture down with it..

    Fucktards

  • Iran is hardly innocent.

  • Alright, explain to me what Iran has done wrong.

  • Well they invaded Iraq, and used child soldiers while doing so. They are a theocracy, and they have made at least two violent, brutal crackdowns against peaceful protesters.

  • @ssdght: iraq invaded iran.

  • Sorry, I apologize, I read incorrectly.

  • Hahahaha, what do we have hear a dumb fuck who doesn't even know his history.

    Iraq invaded Iran with the help and encouragement of the US. No one used child soldiers, they volunteered which any 13 year old patriot would do.

    No one cracked down on peaceful protests, the protesters were the ones who started targeting their surroundings because they weren't heard..

    Fucking idiot.

  • america is failing, true story

  • for once i agree with you but who is the moral highground in the world

  • Wow i think you just described every single fucking country in the world.

  • Whose fault do you think the crime greed and corruption is a fault of?

    Furtherore liberals aren't FOR all the crime and greed etc... Most of the prejudices and racism is from conservatives that don't want to break from their traditions. My cousin voted for McCain because Obama was black. SHe liked Obama's policies more.

    It's not that liberals don't like standards it's that we believe people should be adult enough to make their own decisions without being baby sat all the time by the government

  • Whenever you say the word "waterboarding" I suffocate and my eyes water.

  • Forget that torture doesn't work for gathering relevant information. Forget that torture makes others hate us and is counterproductive to America's goals. Forget that torturing others makes our enemies want to torture our people. The number one reason not to torture is that it is immoral and wrong! This is the only reason necessary not to torture. We are supposed to have a code of honor in this country, I don't know what happened to it. Happy 4th of fucking July.

  • It's immoral and wrong because of all the things that you just said "forget" about.

  • First of all, using the expression "forget about" in that context doesn't deny the importance of those things, it merely denotes their subordinate nature to the larger point I was making. Second, no, that is not why they are immoral and wrong. We don't define morality based on utility, potential goals, or the possibility of revenge. Morality is based on our collective feelings towards actions that are aimed at promoting "good" over "evil." It is more abstract than the things I listed.

  • You can't just say "that's immoral" and be done with it. It is important to ask why it is immoral. That is why I don't agree with "the number one reason not to torture is that it is immoral and wrong!"

  • Really? Thanks pal. Go think about it and get back to me.

  • ...

    You don't get it.

  • I asked you to think about it and all you can come up with is "you don't get it?" Really, you should try harder because you are seriously off base here. Torture isn't "immoral" because it produces bad information, a proper adjective here may be "inefficient." Torture isn't "immoral" because it makes our enemies angry and they will want revenge, the adjective here may be "counterproductive." Torture IS "immoral" because it inflicts sadistic pain upon helpless people, for example. Get it?

  • YEAH RIGHT!!

  • so when are they going to star fireboarding?

  • Let's see now...........

    Water-board, or

    cut their heads off?

    Hummmm.

  • 1. we still do it, in bagram airbase in iraq and we pay our allies and mercinaries to do it for us.

    2. if the iranians had gun rights like we do there revolution would have had a bite to go with its bark. you cant push over a armed population like there goverment did.

  • Don't the detainees get hung after they've been water boarded?

  • show all political prisoners the tyt show as torture. it surely would work on me.

  • then why you watch it ???

    that seems very fucking dumb to me !

  • then why you watch it? what kind of uneducated idiot are you?

  • Why don't you have them listen to Rush in loops instead?

  • same thing. it's still torture. they're all on the same team. hegelian dialectic.

  • He's crazy..how dare he compare us to Iran are you f'n kidding me? Waterboarding in Iran, honey, that's if your shit lucky ,I should know, I'll put you on the phone with one of my iranian cousins or relatives ...what a stretch

  • do you know what making a point is ????

    he was making a point about waterboarding being a way of torture ... too bad you did not understand that

  • Calm down my friend, we all know waterboarding is what they do to prisoners in Iran when they want to give them fun times. We have read the reports on all the other horrors visited upon people in those torture chambers.

    The point TYT is making is about the irony that America can't object to this particular method of torture for obvious reasons. They need to fix their government too, if only by a few inches in comparison to the miles and miles ours has to go.

  • As much as I support Obama, this line of " Don't look backward, look forward " has got to be one of the stupidest things for a president to say.

    By that EXACT same logic, NOBODY in this country should be arrested for ANY crime, because all crimes committed immediately become " In the past "

    I don't see him mandating that History class be taken out of public schools, do you guys?

    Come on Obama, charge Bush and Cheney with treason or don't expect a second term.

  • You really are a moron. Obama simply doesn't have the political power do even attempt to do such a thing.

  • I's going to take 50 years before america can speak on human rights without being laughed out of the room, sad.

  • Cenk, im sry dude but you dont have to be so happy and have that look on your face that says; "i told you so"!

    we're better then those freakin' ass hole who loves waterboarding!

    p.s! i agree with you on everything tho. and you have a reasonable argument.

  • Iran has lured much from the Bush administration; Bad elections, Tourcher, and when a democrat starts talking to you, you plug your ears as yell "I CAN'T HEAR YOU, YOUR EVIL AND ALWAYS WRONG, I'M ALWAYS RIGHT AND JUST, NAN NAN NAN I CANT HEAR YOU!!!"

  • They hate us for our freedom.

    Our freedom to waterboard them, and nuke them, and bomb them, and invade their countries, and occupy thir cities, and kill their children in their own land.

    Yeah, they hate our freedom.

  • I hope you post with irony, and understand that the left have no different an agenda... because if you don't then *ahhh* bless your a politically naive sucker.. when america and the west and world in general get out of this left/right perspective then maybe we can move forward..

  • I agree. America is a war nation regardless of who's in charge.

    But I do believe it's a little better under Obama. A little.

  • True. When you consider that companies like Pepsico and Tyson Foods and IBM are no small participants in the Defense Contracts game, you will begin to understand that the Military-Industrial Complex which Pres. Eisenhower warned America against back in '61 is as powerful or more than Eis. feared.

    Considering General E's background, very scary. It bothers me a great deal that the avg. Am. has no clue what a huge part the Am. Mil.-Ind.Complex has in our economy. Amer. IS a HUGE purveyor of WAR.

  • The obvious implication is HOW does a country claim to be the Defendor of Freedom and Justice when that country's revenue is largely dependant on WAR and death and destruction around the world?

    If the US really wants a peaceful World, then we need to stop profiting from it!

    Export Peace, not War!

  • Perhaps I need to brush up on my history....but WHEN exactly did we Nuke them?

    I'm with you on everything else, just wondering why you included " Nuking them "

  • Dude, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    Come on, we tell them they can't have nuclear power, and yet not only do we have more nukes than the rest of the world combined, but we're the only ones that used them on civilians.

    Surely the hypocrisy can't escape you.

  • :laughs: The casualty figures for US deaths alone,in an invasion of Japan, were estimated to be 1 million. You bringing up Hiroshima and Nagasaki show me that you have a very one sided view of the subject. We don't tell them they can't have nuclear power, we discourage nuclear weapons production. I am no fan of nukes but to point a condemning finger to the past shows that you have little grasp of real world geopolitics.

  • I am sure there are some Bush appologists who will spin this so Bush can still hold the moral highground.

  • well put fellows. and now i am wondering what the neocons have to say about iran waterboarding people..though i'm thinking they'd like to not say anything at all.