Niall Ferguson tackles Ken Livingstone's facts with facts of his own was there a lie?

[ukipwarrior]

ken is a terrorist appeaser. Borrow to consume.

[muhammadsuleman1000]

I will be voting for Boris, not because of his refreshing zest for life and his passion for London, but because of his record and his policies. Despite the Lib Dem/Tory spending cuts to control the debt, police numbers in London have gone UP by 9% under Boris, he has created over 300, 000 new jobs and he has done a lot of work with inter-faith charities to bridge differences between communities. Do we really want to wreck all that by electing some old demagogue like Livingstone?

[fogdentho]

Livingstone's point is totally misleading, you can have the lowest national debt but whether it is sustainable is another issue.

[VanRomPuyArse]

Ken Livingstone is a whining bag of shit!!!!!

[mikesheen741]

Ken Livingstone is a total liar.

[divvy1400yam600]

GDP is such a spurious concept that to focus on it gets you nowhere.

Thus if house prices rise and doctors are given a massive pay increase GDP has risen.

Debt may or may not rise by much so the ratio GDP to debt goes up.

Very little has been achieved.

Also German GDP is more closely related to hard added value assets. Cars High tech. equipment.

The UK's is based on paper assets house prices and consumer/government spending resting on credit.

We are doomed I tell you.

[Dave70100]

Ferguson comes across as a typical public schoolboy, totally brainwashed by his own views with total certainty of his righteousness because that's what mummy, the master and the nanny told him. Yes he's written some good books but he's up his own arse and unlike Ken doesn't have to rely on votes to get anywhere. He's an unelected chin stroker.

[Muwt]

They're both wrong and Ferguson seems to be addressing some claim other than the one Livingstone made.

[james7167]

dont listen to LABOUR AND TORIES KEEP CORPORATE GREED AWAY FROM OUR NHS BAN LABOUR AND TORIES OUT OF POWER SPREAD THE WORD LABOUR AND TORIES HAVE BEEN IN POWER IN UK FOR OVER 30 YRS THERES NO POSITIVE CHANGE FOR THE PUBLIC THE POLITICIANS ARE RICHER WAKE UP LABOUR AND TORIES OUT OF POWER DONT BE MANIPULATED BY THE BBC AND QUESTION TIME ITS STAGED PROPAGANDA

[myroseaccount]

Ferguson is a liar! 400% debt to GDP would mean a debt of 6 TRILLION pounds. This is nonsense and he knows it! The UK debt is about the same % as Germany. UK debt is also mostly long term and will not need to be renewed for 15 to 20 years. Labour's management of the 2007/8 financial crisis was actually pretty good. And I'm a Conservative. Of course Ferguson is actually not a Conservative, but rather a reactionary right wing neo-liberal wing nut!

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@myroseaccount

"Labour's management of the 2007/8 financial crisis was actually pretty good"

Brown was praised by the world for the G20 bail-out plans. Yet in the last election Labour did not highlight this, nor the low deficit they had pre-CC and the LONG economic boom created. The way he walked out of No. 10 when a deal with the LIbs was imminent, was that Labour did not want power in these times - seeing it as a poison chalice. Election campaign was low-key not shouting the many successes

[NearAbbeyRoad]

Ferguson was wrong - pontificating with no facts. Up until the CC the deficit was small. It rocketed bailing out Northern Rock and then spiraled when it hit the fan fro the USA. The UKs debt was no different to France, Germany.

[conocabron1]

Forget the looney left. Ferguson has the historical knowledge and acumen to make the point. Way to go Niall.

[drflynn73]

@conocabron1 He has the knowledge alright and he's not stupid. So it makes you wonder why he is Lying. He obviously knows the difference between gross and net debt. Why would he take the risk to looking so stupid, sprouting these lies? I suppose the career of an academic is determined by what you publish rather than by what you say on TV.

[aecoulson]

Niall Ferguson, what an absolute legend!

[CredoCordis]

@aecoulson I doubt that .. I am not a 'leftie' but I am certainly would not be swayed by a self admitted "vindictive thatcherite" who is arrogant, will not take criticism and never forgets .. I'm paraphrasing but that is essentially his own words.

His "ascent of money" plainly paints him as someone who contributes nothing but the usual diatribe of the usefulness of the evil that is money. His is a puppet who knows which side of the bed is softest. Move on, nothing to see here.

[orwashepushed]

I really wouldn't know who to trust on this one HA! On the one hand you have Niall Ferguson who is a professor in financial and economic history at Harvard university, Harvard business school and the London school of economics and a "loony left" half wit who would pull up "any" statistic in order to mislead and confuse - lies, damn lies and statistics... The United Kingdom is bankrupt.. The only thing I can't understand is why it took as long as 13 years for this tosser and his cohorts to do it.

[RussMaxable]

@orwashepushed He is right wing, i would not trust anyone because they ALL have an agenda.Left wing is Stalin, right wing is hitler, what exactly is great about either.Time to evolve and get some new idea's.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@RussMaxable

Look up Geoism and LVT.

[nem700]

@orwashepushed

like russ said, you cannot trust ferguson. he has a hidden agenda.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@orwashepushed

"a "loony left" half wit "

You do not remember London before Ken came in. It was a disgrace, strewn with black rubbish bags on the pavements as the Tories wanted to cut costs in public services . Ken was the best thing London has had. He concentrated on the quality of life of its people, not those in Surrey who make money out of the place. Now we have a buffoon.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@orwashepushed

"a "loony left" half wit who would pull up "any" statistic in order to mislead and confuse - lies, damn lies and statistics... "

What tripe! Ferguson was 100% WRONG! Livingstone was right.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@orwashepushed

" On the one hand you have Niall Ferguson who is a professor in financial and economic history at Harvard university, "

He never studied economics!!!

[stronzoassoluto]

I'm a liar! ahahah

[drflynn73]

Why's Niall talking about GROSS debt? Isn't NET debt what matters? If gross debt was 71% then I imagine that net debt would have been 40% or less.

[m1trekker]

@drflynn73 Exactly, I found this very biased from Ferguson, in 1997 net national debt was around 38%, around 2007 prior to the financial crisis it was around 34%. I would not have expected such political bias from a so-called independent academic.

[drflynn73]

@m1trekker Yes. I'm actually almost a fan of Niall. He has some unique insights into historical stuff (including things relating to banking and finance). But a lot of his arguments and conclusions are clearly affected by strong political motivations. So it's hit and miss with him. Though at least it's usually pretty obvious when he's talking out of his ass.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@drflynn73

Ferguson is clearly a right wing nut. He hides behind a facade of intellectualness. He is popular in the USA because of his right wing stance.

His books are full of small errors all over.

[drflynn73]

Respond to this video... One valid point though wrt Gross vs Net debt. If countries start defaulting left right and centre then net debt will go up as you figure out how much of the money people owe you will be written off.

[ijclark76]

Ferguson was wrong

Search Google using "Why Niall Ferguson, Ken Livingstone and Toby Young got it wrong on national debt"

[media1512]

@ijclark76 Good point and well spotted! The excellent post which answered my question has now been added to the description.  Details matter!

[equsnarnd]

@ijclark76 You should put up or shut up.  Give a url for your assertion or go away.

[ijclark76]

@equsnarnd Haha! Good one :)

[Reido2828]

@ijclark76

Is Ferguson credible in the UK?

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@ijclark76

Ken was right if he said before the Credit Crunch rather than when Brown left office - I think is what he meant. Ferguson was way out – as usual.

The right wing say Brown ruined the economy which is total bunkum. He never created the CC. He ran the economy well until the CC, all figures prove that. The booming economy was for all to see. 1 million Poles here to do the immense tasks.

Ferguson claims to be some sort of economic historian. He did not do economics to my knowledge

[Reido2828]

@NearAbbeyRoad

Go re check your facts fool. Read about Fergusons policies in the current state of the market and you will change your mind. Typical leftist crackpot distorting facts with fictions

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@Reido2828

You are a right-wing brainwashed idiot incapable of analyzing facts. Ferguson portrays pseudo intelligence. He hasn't a clue on how to interpret the research he does for his books - which at times is OK. He DID NOT do economics - he was WRONG!

BTW, I am no leftist - a free marketeer. I do not support the Tories who uphold a privileged power class of military, judiciary, monarchy, etc, via public schools/Oxbridge, etc. system. Read Paxman's book Who Rule Britain for a starter.

[Reido2828]

@NearAbbeyRoad

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha right wing? Where did that come from? I was in England a year ago and a lot of it is dieing. London has every ethnicity except British. Labour mislead you for decades lol

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@Reido2828

Nothing dying in London. London is a "world city", hence the different ethnics.

[Reido2828]

@NearAbbeyRoad

Ha ha Ha Ha Ha Ha a world city becoming poorer and poorer due to failed integration and distortion of immigrant numbers. Don't make lies with lies. Labour already tried that and almost destroyed the british identity.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@Reido2828

You are barking mad.

[Reido2828]

@NearAbbeyRoad

Britain owes 986 billion and counting, an increase in interest rates, direct money control by the government (Mr. socialist, Labour had the amazing idea of a huge increase in Public sector spending. Many western countries are having these same Keynesian problems and its driving it as a whole to a slow decline. Go read the IMF report on Londons debt But the point I am trying to make is the UK has potential BUT the current political climate will drive you into a third world place.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@Reido2828 stuopidly says:

" Labour had the amazing idea of a huge increase in Public sector spending."

Again for the hard of thinking...

The right wing say Brown ruined the economy which is total bunkum. He never created the CC. He ran the economy well until the CC, ALL FIGURES PROVE THAT. The booming economy was for all to see. 1 million Poles here to do the immense tasks.

Show us some verifiable figures that Brown overspent pre the CC.

[Reido2828]

@NearAbbeyRoad

What was the labour party's spending deficit when things started to decline? 1.3 trillion. Was Gordon Browns policy to increase public spending to stimulate the economy? Yup and many question on the level as well. Didn't labour claim there was nothing wrong with britains economic growth before the crisis? Did Mr Ed try and silence his critics including the many in the IMF? Yup and they provided 0 for deficit reduction in the midst of browns election other than fast statements

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@Reido2828

You are prattling balls. Pre Northern Rock bailout, the deficit was small. FACT!

Labour had a plan after CC bailout to cut half the deficit in four years and no cuts. FACT!

Pre CC economic growth was fine.

Stop making things up or reading the Daily Mail or both.

[Reido2828]

@NearAbbeyRoad

Wow what a brilliant response. So your saying UK's debt problem was not a result of labours 13 years in power? Was it not the result of the fiscal policies and bailouts? Any fool who thinks spend spend spend is the answer then I'm sorry your argument is finished.

[MrGilles1990]

@NearAbbeyRoad Which party bailed out the banks? which party was in bed with them for 13 years? which party pursued the economics of Benito Mussolini?

Despite all this comrade, the bank bailouts were in the billions while the total debt is in the trillions.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@MrGilles1990

For God's sake! All western gvmts bailed out their banks otherwise there would be soup lines.

The "deficit" figure is what matters.

It is obvious that few here have any grasp of basic economics.

[MrGilles1990]

@NearAbbeyRoad Iceland didn't and it is in a much better position because of it.

Why should governments collude with private business? it's the economics of Mussolini.

The deficit does matter, but it obsessed about and people do not realise how much debt is accumulated.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@MrGilles1990

Iceland at a few 100,000 cannot be equated to the UK at 62m. All western gvmts collude with private corporations. We have had corporate fascism for the past 50 years no matter what party.

Search Youtube on:

RSA Animate - Crises of Capitalism

This gives a good overview of why we are in the position we are. Thatcher & Reagan are responsible for a lot - outsourcing to China came from them

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@MrGilles1990

The deficit figure is what matters IN to OUT, not the total debt. You sound like the Daily Mail - the mouthpiece of the Daft Tories.

BTW, the deficit is less than when Major was in power.

[MrGilles1990]

@NearAbbeyRoad Debt does matter! more than the deficit. The deficit might have been bigger in majors time but the net debt was much lower. I agree the Tories are daft for they are not cutting enough, they should be privatising the NHS, stopping unnecessary wars, stop funding other countries and bankers.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@MrGilles1990

"Debt does matter! more than the deficit. "

It does not. Stop regurgitating Tory & Daily Mail ripe. Privatizing the NHS? To have an expensive inferior system like the USA? Look at Michael Moore's "Sicko". In short episodes on YouTube. If you think we need a system like that you need therapy.

Cut more? Your knowledge of economics is NIL. Maybe you hate humanity.

[MrGilles1990]

@NearAbbeyRoad I would rather have a superior system like France or Germany. I have seen Sicko, have you seen "Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story - 4oD - Channel 4"? The tories do not care about cutting the debt they cut care about cutting the deficit. Debt does not matter? seems to me like gardianista responsibility dodging.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@MrGilles1990

Again the deficit is the REAL figure to judge. FInd out.

The Tories care only about maintaining a privileged ruling class - public school Oxbridge, etc.. Look at the cabinet. A joke.

[MrGilles1990]

@NearAbbeyRoad I agree, but it's not only the tories, both the liberals and labour both did the same thing.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@MrGilles1990

Labour did little to break up the ruling class strata. Their way was to allow more state kids into Oxbridge - not break it up. All top posts in Military, education, judiciary, monarchy. etc, are public school kids. Only two unis matter to them which is an insult to the other 97. Look up ex MI5 Annie Machon on Youtube, who says predominately ex public school, MI5, are defending their privileged class not the country.

Coups were planned against Labour in 1960/70s - they tread softly

[Reido2828]

@NearAbbeyRoad

Daily Mail reader? Don't insult me

[kkwillsaveus]

@NearAbbeyRoad One question, what did Brown do to run the economy well that Clarke hadn't done before him? He inherited an economy that had grown for 14 consecutive quarters, with unemployment low and falling, 2.6% inflation, low interest rates, a deficitof £6 billion. It wouldn't have been hard to run that economy.

Facts of Brown's overspending, he stuck to Ken Clarke's spending plans for 2 years, and had debt at 32% of GDP and falling, then ran deficits of £30 billion a year.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@kkwillsaveus

Are you serious? The brainwashers have made a good job on you. Brown gave us the longest period of economic growth in history. Unemployment was ZERO. etc. etc. Shissssh!

[kkwillsaveus]

@NearAbbeyRoad Did he ever take us from recession to growth? No. The economy was growing when he took it over and had been for years. To say he gave us growth implies he took us out of recession. Brown spent all the money, and did nothing about the asset bubble in order to lower unemployment in the short run, that period of growth is what caused the mess we're in. Longest period of growth, try long recession and biggest deficit.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@kkwillsaveus

The economy was not growing in ay significant way under the Tories!!!!

Brown spend no money - you are a Daily Mail reader.

[Pepotamo1985]

@kkwillsaveus

Not to mention that, bar the mortgage and credit bubbles, which were inevitably going to tumultuously burst sooner rather than later, the UK economy STAGNATED in real terms from 2000 until 2007, allegedly a golden era of sustained growth.

[orwashepushed]

@NearAbbeyRoad... I'll have whatever you've been drinking

[VanRomPuyArse]

@NearAbbeyRoad Gordon Brown is the biggest bag of shit in the history of the Universe!!!!

[timebandit71]

@VanRomPuyArse lol well it doesnt get much worse then that.........

[Reido2828]

@ijclark76

Livingston is a cunt and England is weak

[incredibleXMan]

@ijclark76 Niall Ferguson cannot be trusted, you are right.

[tom3t0]

People are confusing two measures of debt; (government debt) relative to GDP = 60%

and (government + nationalised banks + personal + corporate debt) relative to GDP = 400%

, for the record(government + naionalised banks) relative to GDP = 150%

[youfatstinkypoo]

400%? In how many decades?

[Stephanavich]

Sorry im confused, whos lying? both?

[mangoswiss]

What a liar! I was just looking for this and you posted it just in time.