Wang Kiu Wing Chun - 108 Wooden Dummy, Ip Man 木人樁 詠春 葉問 王喬

[SagaraSouske]

Wow you're probably the best/traditional back yard wing chun practitioner on yourtube. My hats off to you.

[eternalspring247]

@SagaraSouske what is a back yard wing chun practitioner? haha. I have been training for many year under Wang Kiu lineage, at least more than 10 years.

[SagaraSouske]

@eternalspring247 Actually I meant that as a complement. I train under the pan nam/ linage with pan shuzao. I consider my self a "back yard wing chun practitioner" because ever since I came back to the us I've been practicing at home.

Don't worry there are plenty of people who practice hard in the comfort of their homes.

Have a good day.

[eternalspring247]

@SagaraSouske haha, no worries. Thanks!!!

[MCBosmans]

''Is he alive?! :O''

[ownage4000]

Always wanted to see how the form ends. But why does it look like you're trying to stick to the dummy?

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 It seems that they haven't taught you duality in the Martial Arts system. You can train any form in many different ways. For me personal I like sticking the most, and that is why I post it here. But you can train the dummy or any other form for example: hard/soft, sticky/loos, slow/fast,etc...... and anything in between.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 I've been taught that the techniques in are set, but the idea's behind the techniques can change. So another question is: why are you sticking to the dummy?

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 The dummy is just a replacement of a human body and it aims to refine a the understanding of angles, positions, footwork and more. Sticking to it is just one of the ways of training with a 'human'. It's the same if I would ask you, why do we do Chi Sau. The concept is the same as Chi Sau. I think you know why we do Chi Sao (feeling, angels, sensitivity, soft, openings etc....) But remember this is just one of the ways I train with the dummy.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 I do see a point why you'resticking to the dummy. But I personally think if you break contact every now and then. The dummy can teach much more.

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 You're not listening to what I'm saying. Sticking to the dummy is just one of the methods how I train the dummy. I told you already about duality. Sometimes I train this way and sometimes I train without keeping contact. Other times I train very slow, than fast. Sometimes really hitting hard, than soft. And there are many other ways. This is what duality is about, I hope you understand now.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 My personal view of the dummy is that you can can only train it in one way. It's true that you can train SNT, CK and BG any way you like. But not the dummy, because it can't move. If you stick to the dummy, you might have wrong structures. If you hit it hard, you might hurt yourself and so on. Another fact about the dummy, is that you have to move for it. So the angles in the form are not the angles you would use against a real opponent.

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 So according to you, you can never practice the dummy very slow / fast. So that also means that everybody in the whole world should learn it like you. You're not taking in account that people are different. Some people are stronger/weaker, others are faster/slower. This also means that if someone knows the weakness of your training, they can beat you easily. My training is making you ready for everything. Be just like water, always changing.

[eternalspring247]

@eternalspring247 The dummy is just an instrument. Even if it cannot move, you can still move. So that is not an argument. Sticking to it doesn't mean you will have the wrong structure as long you move in the right angles. So I just have to say I don't agree with you.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 I did not say that people should train like me. I meant to say that some details in the dummy should be the same. Like Chi Sau moving forwards instead of every direction. People should train in their own pace. I mentioned the practitioner moving for the dummy in my previous comment. Again, the dummy can't move so you have to move for it. For example the neck pull. In the form you're slightly shifted. In reality you have the stance when you were punching.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 cont. When you're sticking to the dummy, you'll have limited movement making it very hard to maintain both structure and angle. A very good example is the taahn sau in the first few sections of the form. Another thing about sticking is that you treat the form like a big action scene you would see in movies. Back when I trained Wang Kiu they had something what is called ''living dummy''.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 cont. It was one big sequence fighting scenario, with one punching and the other chasing the arms. Instead of finding a clever way to punch back, I was taught to chase the arms. After a period of time I refused to practise the ''living dummy'' and tried to find out what dummy was all about. I did found out. It's about recovery. If you release contact you can see every concept within the form.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 cont. By breaking contact, every concept in the form can serve as a setup for another concept. The best example is: dai bong-man sau-waang geuk. The dai bong teaches you to use bong sau from your elbow, but also sets you up to learn how to deal with a situation where you ended on the wrong hand. After that you are in the position to learn hot to deal (in a rather traditional way) with a roundhouse kick. The wang geuk and kwan sau.

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 The 'living' is just another way to practice the Dummy form. Very useful if you don't own a dummy. You can still separate every moment and practice it one by one. I don't agree about chasing the hands. You still chase the hands if you do a bong sau (or anything else) on the dummy, since the dummy arm is just there. If you're truly NOT chasing the hands, than the first thing you should do it punch the dummy.

Sticking or not, it is still a choice as how I train. I do both and

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 sometimes I combine them both. My focus is not on the form as it self. When I train, most of the times I just train the techniques separately. Like one students asked Ip Man. I'm finished with the dummy form, what now? Than Ip Man told him, just hit the dummy. The real meaning behind his answer was, don't focus only on the forms. Use your wing chun and do whatever you feel naturally. So the same with your view of the set. If you only think that there is one way, than you will be

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 confined to only one true way. Since everybody moves and punch differently, there is not 1 true way. You have to adept.

For example if you have been doing the Bong Sau on midlevel and you encounter a taller person. Your bong sau on midlevel won't work anymore. You have to move your bong sau higher.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 Actually you are hitting the dummy. The very first technique can be a punch, but is open handed. Thus having a meaning of seeking a bridge. Between the first technique(kiu sau) and the neck-pull, is another punch. But the dummy can't move so it can't remove his arm, making it look like a block. The recovery kaang sau at the end of every section involves a punch(upper kaang sau). But guess what's not moving.

[ownage4000]

@ownage4000 cont. At the paahk sau section, there are paahk sau without punches. In reality there are. Why aren't there any in the form. Because you're shifted. There are a lot ''hidden'' punces in the form, which a lot of practitioners seem to miss. So don't look at it like a black and white picture. As far as I'm concerned about the living dummy. It might be handy but i think it's a living mess. My former teacher seemed to miss the point of the dummy.

[ownage4000]

@ownage4000 cont. He once ''explained'' the dummy treating it like a sequence. When he was done explaining I asked: ''Why don't you hit him at the count of one''. He suddenly was at a loss for words, indicating that he himself didn't know what the dummy or Ving Tsun is all about.

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 Yes that is true. But if you truly don't want to chase the hands, than you should do a 108 punches version of the dummy.

For me personally I treat the dummy just as a tool to REPLACE a human body. Nothing comes close to a real person and that is why the 'living' dummy is very good. Ask yourself this. Will you ever fight with someone that won't move (arms, body and legs)? Will you hit a arm that won't give in because of the applied force? Now we have an immovable object

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 that suppose to tell us how we should use our body. Don't you find it strange that an immovable dummy tells you how you should do your techniques? It's not natural right. The chance that a tree will attack you is probably zero. So why should we prefer a dummy above a real person?

It is said that they created to dummy because they couldn't find a partner to train with. And that is what you should always remind yourself.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 Why 108, I think 15 would be plenty.

Another thing I would like to talk about is training with a partner. Why would you sequence fight with him if you can chi or goh sau with him. You won't waste each others time and both people can learn from it. The dummy is just there to teach how to recover in a less fast, hard and stressful environment.

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 Haha, that is true. Lesser is even better than 108.

Why do you still think it is a sequence? This 'sequence' is created on the dummy. All that Wang Kiu did, was translating the movements to a living person. So this same sequence is also on the dummy. You can take out any step of the dummy and train it separately.

Why not chi or goh sau? Simply the dummy forms was created on the dummy. The 'living' is just a translation of the dummy. But remember, the dummy was created to

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 REPLACE a person. It was not created because we have to perfect the angles etc.... So why would you ever prefer a tool above a human partner?

You don't waste time, because both persons can learn from it. This form is only there because someone created the dummy. You don't need an immovable thing to tell you how to recover. Now this immovable dummy forces you to do things that a normal person would never do or would never occur. So for me, I still prefer living.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 The fact that the dummy is there to replace a human being, only supports my views and theories. The dummy won't hit you or get mad if you do hit him. So in the end it gives you a opportunity to learn how to recover you otherwise wouldn't have. A person won't limit himself to just punches. He is much more clever(or should be) than a piece of wood. A real person would really try to hit you, so it it would be more likely your reaction is random.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 cont. In the living dummy there is only one person punching and standing completely still. A real person would try to close the gap and try to have a distance where he can hit you, instead of thin air. I'm sure there are many more aspects a real person or opponent would do to hit you. Also the way my former teacher used interpret was it was a chi sau device. I'm not accusing you of making the same mistake.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 cont. But if you do, you treat the whole form like a chasing hands sequence instead of a conceptual entity who gives you idea's to recover. And again, the best way to train, is with a person. But there are many ideas that can't be practised, because you're scared, not that fast, not that strong or whatever your personal reason is. The dummy isn't (or shouldn't) be able to hit you.

[ownage4000]

@eternalspring247 Having said that, I personally don't see why a human should replace a dummy. In my own interpretation, The living dummy is doing the exact opposite of what the wooden one does. Which is strange to me actually. Ask yourself this, would you ever be able to do the whole form in a fight. I don't think so.

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 If you follow the real mind of a martial artist, you're supposed to learn from each other and forget your ego. So that is not a very good argument to create a dummy, just because someone gets angry. They say the dummy is created because there was no one around to train with. So the real purpose it not about emotions, but about not having someone around.

If your partner is getting angry and trying to hit you, than that is supposed to be goh sau and not training a form.

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 Training a form and fighting are both different things. And if your partner is getting angry, than it is still a good thing. At least your 'training' is realistic. haha.

Why would you be scared/not fast, not strong? You can always ask your partner to adjust so you can train better. Or does this means that your partners are not able forget about their ego's?

Why do I get the feeling that you're not listening, because I keep explaining the same stuff over and over again.

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 Every form is a sequence and it's still a set of movements. If you had a good teacher during your time in the Wang Kiu lineage, he would have told you that you can break down every step. And practice every step separately on the dummy or living.

Your question can be used on every Wing Chun form, will you ever be able to do the those form in a fight? No, because a fight is not the same as training a form. In a fight there are just too many variables, so you have to be

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 fluid like water and adapt. So that is why I train the forms in duality.

I still think that nothing can replace a real human being. Because we fight against humans and not trees.

[eternalspring247]

@ownage4000 And you're saying that in the living dummy the opponent only punches and stands completely still. Isn't that the same with the wooden dummy? The dummy doesn't move and the arms won't even bend. Isn't it a bit contradicting to say the living version is worse than the wooden dummy just because of this?

[MCBosmans]

I noticed that after your first bong sau in the first section you do a Taahn Da (Taahn Sau hit), just like I saw Wang Kiu doing on an old video on youtube. However, in the school in the Netherlands where they supposedly teach Wang Kiu lineage, there is a Po Pai Jeung (double palm push) right after the bong sau in the first section. I later saw that Joseph Simonet, who studied under Wang Kiu for a week in Canada also does a Po Pai Jeung on the dummy. That is a distinct difference.

[eternalspring247]

@MCBosmans You're right. Actually they teach even more than that. There are more variation. In the living dummy they even teach Paak Da (Paak Sau + Punch). I have learned all of them and they all feel ok. In this video I show what I have learned originally in the Wang Kiu Lineage. No matter which one, Taahn Da, Pak Da or Po Pai. As long it works and don't goes against the Wing Chun Principles than it is ok. Don't follow the forms too strictly, as long as it does it job. ;-)

[arjgro]

Nice to see this early 108 version for a change, as it is what I learned as well.

It's refreshing, after all those modern 116 versions here on youtube ;-)

Anyway, Isn't that dummy hung up a bit too high?

[eternalspring247]

@arjgroThanks. Yes the dummy is too high. This is my friends dummy, I still have to hang up mine. ;)