The last section of this video is something that I am making a video about which is that the Trinity is proven in the resurrection of Christ. If you are wondering how that can be done wait and see that all three persons of the Trinity are credited for raising him from the dead.
On another note there are other scriptures that clearly show there is two separate entities. Such as John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. If Jesus was the Almighty God shouldnt the scripture read: For God loved the world so much that he gave himself, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life
@bossmanjef, I am not epidome. Also, the Greek we are dealing with is the common, so the classical would be of no use to me in this discussion. U seem to be in the same state of mind that Nicodemas was in when the Lord tried to explain to him how one must be born again. There is only 1 God. There is only 1 Lord. The terms Lord and God are used in the same respect in the New Testament. The Father is called Lord. Likewise, Jesus is called God.
The Greek we are dealing with is Classical The New Testament was written in classic Greek and that is what it was translated from. Thats what causes the issue. Its an issue of readers not understanding Greek to English. You compared this convo to that of Jesus and Nicodemas. He could not understand. Would you please explain the scripture i mentioned above?
@bossmanjeff, It can only be concluded that they are indeed individuals. But they are co- eternal. Creation itself is indeed Jesus's handiwork. For God the Father Himself acknowledges this in Hebrews 1:8-11. He calls Jesus God and He also calls Him Lord. Jesus said that whoever sees Him has seen the Father. He told the pharasees that He and the Father are 1, not 2. The pharasees took up stones to throw at Him because they knew that He was saying that He was God.
Again I believe you are taking this out of context. You are only looking at one section of Heb and not the full book. If you look above in vrs 1-6 of Chap 1 you can clearly see Jesus was Gods firstborn of all creation and given the title of Son. He helped God create the heavens ect. They are one ONLY in the aspect that they agree. ((Example) Agree on right from wrong)
@bossmanjef, I did not take the Heb. 1:8-11 out of context. I've read the whole book many times over, and Heb. 1:8-11 is a complete thought. There is nothing in Hebrews that contadicts that God called Him both God and Lord, as He did very vividly in Heb. 1:8-11. U are arguing against the clear text of scripture, not me.
Sir, then why have you not explained the above ver 1-6 that I mentioned. I did not say Heb1:8-11 was not not a complete thought, You prolly should say that the Whole Book of Heb. is a complete thought and not just 1:8-11. Also i am just having a conversaton why are you getting so angry?
@bossmanjeff, Heb. 1:8-10, "But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Please look at that scrip. you quoted. "therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" God anointed Jesus a (god). it can get confussing. You must look at it as a whole book and not just certian scrip
@bossmanjeff, Now, what part of God & Lord don't u understand? Simply put, if Jesus is not God then He is a sinner for not rebuking Thomas for worshipping Him and calling Him his Lord and His God. U are the one with the explaining to do.
@bossmanjeff, U disagree with John 1:1. He was given the glory He had before the world was. Jesus was never created. His has no beginning, even as the Father who has no beginning. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and God was the Word. Jesus gave it all up to become the Son of God. He was equal to God and humbled Himself and walked as a Man. God said of Him that "He shall be to Me a Son and I shall be to Him a Father." Before this Jesus existed co- eternally with Him.
Are u serious? I never said that Jesus and the Father were one individual, but one God in essence though they agree as individuals. Like how the church is one, but is not one member. Jesus is a member of the Godship as a christian is a member of the church. It is obvious that u have not paid attention to anything I have posted before.
I am sorry but you did 3 posts down from the top you say 1 God and then again25 posts down you say 1 God. Maybe this was just a mistake on how you were explaining it or how I was understanding it. On another note PLEASE EXPLAIN ALL OTHER SCRIPTURES I MENTIONED instead of avoiding them.
The whole point is that nouns in the greek are affected by grammer. You thought 2 different Gods were mentioned in John 1:1 because of ur misinterpretation of the greek text. I am not going to go tick for tat. I mentioned Thomas's worship of Jesus and his calling Him his Lord and His ((God)). I challenged another person to that many days before u surfaced. Why don't u just go and explore the comments in this video and answer these things that no one who has been in opposition could answer?
So let me get this straight you asked me to point out where YOU said God and Jesus were 1 and I DID. Now you dont even notice it. This must be because you see you made a mistake. You just go on like a broken record back to Thomas calling Jesus Lord and God. I guess in your mind you are telling yourself I will go back to the same point I made and forget that I even messed up in my posting.
So I will answer this again but I will break it down for you. He called him Lord and God because that is what was prophesied to Israel that is who would come. The king of the JEWS aka Lord. Thomas recognized Jesus was given authority and power like God.
Not a mess up. If this is what u do to get credibility, while at the same time avoid answering the obvious, then u are allowing yourself to be a tool of Satan. Don't u know that course jesting is sin? The only way for ur point to stand is for Jesus to be a sinner for not rebuking Thomas for calling Him his Lord and his God, if indeed He was not his God. This refutes ur blasphemous position. Again don't blame me, u have the truth to blame for this.
U seem to claim some authority in the knowledge of the greek. Why don't u break down the rules for us so that we may receive edification? Break it down for us. I did some research, but I cannot say that I am an expert in the greek language.
I am weary of debating new ppl who come along with the same tired arguments, when they can just read recent and former debates where ppl who have taken their position have been utterly refuted. It's pointless. I don't have the capacity to debate thousands of people individually who come one after the other with the same arguments. Just go into the archives and look at the last man who got shut down with ur arguments and put urself in his shoes. Don't blame me. U have the truth to blame for this.
Why do you keep asking me to answer your questions about scriptures you present yet you will not even answer any of mine. Well I will tell you why because YOU CANT ANSWER THEM, YOU DONT KNOW. So to sum it up. Jehovah is GOD almighty and Jesus was the first born of all creation and assist god in making the rest of this universe. Jesus even acknowledged that his father God Jehovah is GREATER. I provided scriptures to prove this.
This question was already raised before u ever decided to even come around looking for a debate. If u want to be fair, answer the matter with Thomas, as no one who took ur fallacious stance was successful in answering. Personal attacks cannot cloak the fact that u came into a place where the question existed here before u. Now answer it or hold ur peace.
I answered this already. Do you just skip my answer and ask another question when you are stuck as I have seen? I will answer this question again.
Heb 1:8-10 Jesus was appointed to that title /headship as a god/lord. Is 9:6,7 also state about Jesus birth he was a god. That is why Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for calling him god. Because Jesus is a god but not the Almighty God or Most High God as stated in Psa 83:18
After u consider this, u should be able to see why calling Jesus "a god", as in a different god from the God of heaven, is blasphemous. This is because Jesus was receiving worship in the same timeframe where He told the devil, "It is written, thou shall worship the Lord thy God and Him only shall thou serve." If He was not the Lord thy God as the Father is the Lord thy God, then that would make Him guilty for receiving worship according to the scripture that He quoted to the devil...
Let me start by saying that I have not been at all distressed by u, though you've implied that I was somehow upset. And these things you've said in a taunt. Nevertheless, I am not moved by these things. Ur answer pointing at Heb. 1:8-10 did not answer the Godship Jesus had before leaving His glory to become a Man. U are looking at Christ as having been a Man 1st before ever having the title of God, when Phi. 2 and Jn. 1:1 says differently. He was always God. He became a Man in due time.
Well it seemed you were upset with the words you were using, it looked to me as if you were upset. I am sorry if I was wrong. My reply to your question was not to answer Jesus Godship before leaving Heaven. It was to explain why Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for calling him god. I am not sure why you even thought it.
Lets get back to our main disagreement. You state God is 1. I think we both may not be understanding each other. Do you believe that the Father , the Son, and the Holy Ghost are 1?=Meaning 1 person, 1 entity, or 1 supernatural creature? Or do you mean they are in Union with each other? =Meaning they agree, Or work together?
They are individuals and member of one Godhead bodily, just like the church is not one individual member but many making up 1 body. God is 1 in 3 persons. Also, my answer concerning His Godship was in response to ur saying He was appointed the title of "a god"., as to make Him a lesser god. The Father is greater, but in essence They are equal. Like in the church there are elders, yet everyone in the church are equally members of the same body.
They are individuals and members of one Godhead bodily, just like the church is not one individual member but many making up 1 body. God is 1 in 3 persons. Also, my answer concerning His Godship was in response to ur saying He was appointed the title of "a god"., as to make Him a lesser god. The Father is greater, but in essence They are equal. Like in the church there are elders, yet everyone in the church are equally members of the same body.
If you are stating they are three separate entities then we agree. We all should just keep in mind that God almighty (Jehovah)is greater than his son Jesus. He is show in John 5:19 and John 14:28. And that Jesus is just the mediator between man and God Almighty
U have not answered correctly. This is because of what I said before. Your position is blasphemous. If Jesus is not the Lord thy God as the Father is the Lord thy God, then Jesus is guilty and is a sinner because He received worship when the scripture He quoted to Satan said, "you shall worship the Lord thy God and Him ((only)) shall thou serve." He cannot be belittled to "just a mediator" between man and God Almighty. He is not guilty therefore He is Almighty God. No other way could He be right
The scripture gave no room for anyone other than God Almighty to receive worship. There is no way for any JW to reconcile this fact to justify their theology against the nature of who Christ is. From this direct commandment that Jesus Himself quoted to the devil, we know that it was never altered, even in the New Testament where He quoted it. This will never change. According to this Christ is either God or a sinner. If u say He isn't Almighty God, then u are guilty of blasphemy...
This is my last reply because our posts have been marked as SPAM.2 posts up you say "U have not answered correctly. There was no question asked by you. Also you quoted a scrip you shall worship the Lord thy God and Him only shall thou serve" Jesus says THY God and to HIM alone thou serve. SO why did Jesus state himself in the 3rd person. Since you believe he is Almighty God then he should have said you shall worship the ME and shall thou serve" Thanks for helping me end this disagreement.
@bossmanjef - You have not answered correctly. A question does not have to be asked when it is implied. If there is a disagreement, when either party who is in opposition speaks, it is in answer to support his/her position, such as you have failed to do. Yes, I've quoted Jesus telling the devil that the LORD God is to be worshipped, and He "only" to be served. He often spoke in the 3rd person. Your argument has no bearing.
@bossmanjef-People worshipped Him. Bottom line, if He was not Almighty God, He would not be our Redeemer. He would be a sinner for receiving worship and for being a hypocrite for telling the devil that only the LORD God is to be worshipped and He "only" to be served, then went about straightway and received worship, if in fact He was not God. You are not listening. Your position is blasphemous! If what you say were true, then there wouldn't be a christian faith. He would then need to be redeemed
@bossmanjef-People worshipped Him. Bottom line, if He was not Almighty God, He would not be our Redeemer. He would be a sinner for receiving worship and for being a hypocrite for telling the devil that only the LORD God is to be worshipped and He "only" to be served, then went about straightway and received worship, if in fact He was not God. You are not listening. Your position is blasphemous! If what you say were true, then there wouldn't be a christian faith. He would then need to be redeemed
@bossmanjef-People worshipped Him. Bottom line, if He was not Almighty God, He would not be our Redeemer. He would be a sinner for receiving worship and for being a hypocrite for telling the devil that only the LORD God is to be worshipped and He "only" to be served, then went about straightway and received worship, if in fact He was not God. You are not listening. Your position is blasphemous! If what you say were true, then there wouldn't be a christian faith. He would then need to be redeemed
@bossmanjef-People worshipped Him. Bottom line, if He was not Almighty God, He would not be our Redeemer. He would be a sinner for receiving worship and for being a hypocrite for telling the devil that only the LORD God is to be worshipped and He "only" to be served, then went about straightway and received worship, if in fact He was not God. You are not listening. Your position is blasphemous! If what you say were true, then there wouldn't be a christian faith. He would then need to be redeemed
Also I need to point out how u give Him the title "a god" when that is clearly not what the bible says. I am not a master of the greek, but I know that the term God for Jesus is not coupled w/ an indefinite article. He is "God" just like the Father is God. They were 1 God when the Father said "Let Us make man in Our image." In Gen. 1 where ever u see it saying "God said" that is the Father. Where ever u see it saying "God made", that is Jesus. Look at it very closely in light of Heb. 1:8-10...
@bossmanjeff, Is the Father the Lord? Of course He is. Is not also Christ called Lord? Then how many Lords are there? Eph. 4:5 says there is only one, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism..." Jesus is God because God said so. Since God called Him God, then they are one as God because God could not break His own commandment by allowing another god to be worshipped. Ur theology is blasphemous, because ur position declares Christ as being another God who can be worshipped, when God's law says no other
Sir, again I believe you are taking this out of context. At Eph 4:5 it does state One Lord, one faith, one baptism I would suggest looking at Ephesians as a whole book and not just a part. Because if you look down further into he book you will see in eph. 4:15-onward Paul explains 4:5 he likens that scrip to the human body as working together. So as with the Father God and his Son Jesus, they work harmoniously together and cooperate.
Further more at Ex 33:18-20 God tells moses no man has seen god and lived. So i would conclude that man cannot see god or they will die. On another note would you explain all teh below scrip i posted?
Also while you quote Ex. 33, U did not mention where Philip said to Christ, " Show us the Father and it will suffice us." What was the divine response? " Have I not been with you so long and yet you have not known Me Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. So why say show us the Father?" Are u saying that He lied?
@bossmanjef, Now if they being the enemies of the Lord could understand this, why is your heart hardened to where u cannot grasp this concept. Even as Nicodemus could not go a 2nd time into his mother's womb to be born again, the Lord Jesus cannot be considered a 2nd God. For the Lord does not share His glory with another. Only God can forgive sins and be worshipped. No other God is worthy of that than the one true God who is revealed in the Person of Christ.
There are a whole slew of scriptures that dispute that God is one. Jhn 14: 28 Jesus says God is greater than I. Also Jesus prayed as shown in the following Luke 3:21)Luke 6:12,13)(Luke 9:28,29)Luke 11:1-4)Matthew 6:9-13)Mark 1:35-39(Mark 6:45,46)Luke 22:32)John 17:1-26). So who was Jesus preying to? Himself? No his father.
Also at (Math3:16) Jesus was baptized and Gods Spirit descending like a dove above Jesus then we heard Gods voice out of heaven state This is my SON. If you would please explain all these 1 by 1. Please understand. I am just attempting to understand your viewpoint
@bossmanjef, Notice how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost all have 1 name in Matthew 28:19? This is because they are 1 God. The Holy Ghost is called the Spirit of God. He is also called The Spirit of Christ. The Holy Ghost was also called the Father by Jesus when He said "It is My Father in Me who does the works..." Paul the Apostle called Him Christ in you the hope of glory. The Trio are equally 1 body as how the church should be. We were made in Their image and likeness...
Mat 28:19 does not state that. all it says is to baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Ghost. Below i will provide further scrip to explain why i do not believe in that manner as you. If you can please disprove each scripture i provide.
Math 20:20-23 20.Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. 21.And he said unto her, What wilt thou ? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit , the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22.But Jesus answered and said , Ye know not what ye ask . Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of , and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with ? They say unto him, We are able
.23.And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with : but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give , but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
(If the Holy Spirit were a person and were God, this text would flatly contradict the Trinity doctrine, because it would mean that in some way the Holy Ghost was greater than the Son. Instead, what Jesus said shows that the Father, to whom the Spirit belonged, is greater than Jesus, the Son of man.)
1 Cor 11:3 3.But I would have you know , that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (Clearly, then, Christ is not God, and God is of superior rank to Christ. It should be noted that this was written about 55 C.E., some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. So the truth here stated applies to the relationship between God and Christ in heaven.)
bossmanjef, what you seem to be stumbling over is the nature of God, yes they are two people yet one in nature and purpose. They share the same nature which is divinity and substance, they are both God. One is not greater than the other this is clearly shown in Philippians ( 2:6) Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. You see Jesus pre-incarnate was God equal with the Father but chose to relinquish it for a time.
@bossmanjef, epidome is right. The Father and Christ are equally divine as God, as it says in Phi. 2:6; but I want to address an issue before it arises. Someone will try to use Jn. 14:28 as a rebuttal to this fact. As to say since Jesus says in this scripture that the Father is greater than He, how then can He be equal to Him? The same way Jesus was called the Son of David, and yet David called Him Lord. He who has ears to hear let him hear!
Jhn 14:28 I will not touch it. I think you should read further down below Phil 2:6 because you will see that you are taking phil 2:6 out of context. Because below in verses 7-11 you will see that God gave Jesus the title of god, a superior position before all others and the angels would bend there knees because of his new position((This position as being god)OR like god) BTW why does no one bother explaining the others scriptures I posted to prove my point?
@rentz46 I do not see how Gen 26:5 proves that Jesus is God himself. I read that scrip you sighted many times in a few different bible translations and it is Jehovah God speaking about his promise to Abraham and his seed. Nowhere in any translation does in say or imply that is Jesus talking.
@JehovahIsSalvation Those two versus of many proves the trinity. Jesus speaking in John 8:58 stating " before Abraham ,IAM. " Why would Chirst say that if it wasnt him taking in Gen 26 5. The essence of Christ existed before God's manifestation of the flesh.
So it is with the Greek; but with nouns. Well there is the issue in itself I believe you are referring koine, or Common Greek. Classical Greek is much MUCH more complicated than koine. If you would be willing Please purchase this book written by an independent person. The book is called Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament.
WOW this is a hot thread lol. Anyways epidome, you said it was a grammar error on my part about not understanding the Greek word for god and you gave me the example , I can give u sort of an example. Look at how I use an English pronoun in a couple of sentences. "Unto whom does this belong?" "Who had this?" Do u see how the word "who" is transformed because of grammar?
onewatchingoneself, are you so sure that I don't learn from myself or grow in my own personal critiques of myself? Believe me I am one of my critics but I also listen to the message and ponder on it and examine Scripture. Remember I may have made this video but it is composed of the Word of God not sourced in me so of course this message has much to offer me as well for the Word of God is living and the Holy Spirit reveals.
onewatchingoneself, The Bible said, He who thinks he knows anything knows nothing yet as he ought to know. (1 Corinthians 8:2). Wisdom says in the Book of Proverbs, "keep my commands and live!". Jesus said "he who has ears to hear, let him hear!" Elihu in the Book of Job said, "There is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding". Cont...
onewatchingoneself, Paul said in 1 Corinthians. 2:14, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned." Peter said, "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God...". (1 Pe 4:11). So on and so forth. Read the Bible, believe it, live and breath it; then u will be in harmony with everything that God made when He looked and saw everything that He made and it was very good.
Jehovah does not give his glory to false gods of the pagan nation Isa 42:8 " I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images", but those who serve him,like Jesus he will give is glory,just as Jesus will do the same,John 17:22"Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one"
Jg 3:9, 10,Jg 3:15 both Ehud and Othniel were apoointed as SAVIORSalso Moses was a savior of the nation of Israel which Jehovah used agents just like Jesus but in a lesser degree.Acts 2:26 ... God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom YOU impaled.'; 13:23 God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus,.".Jude 25 to [the] only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might and authority for all past eternity and now and into all eternity. Amen. Jeus is the agent!
Yes we just konor the son as they honour the Father ,but never does it say worship also Jesus says he has his oum glory you are trying to make it the same by implying it to prove the tinity but it never says it. Plus you don't mean Jesus is God because that wpuld mean Jesus is a trinity which you don't believe,only the Father and God of Jesus Rev3:12 is worshiped in heaven why would that worship include Jesus just he Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, is giving to him.
stut9882iwxk, I am a Trinitarian based on Sola Scriptora - Scripture Alone. Your denial of the Trinity requires sources and guides outside of the Bible.
Jesussaid the glory "I HAD" it says nothing that they share the same glory you're reading that into the text that's special pleading.2 Cor actually saysThe one who did not know sin he made to be sin for us, that we might become Gods righteousness by means of him" With Jesus sacrifice he atoned for our sins because he remained faith to GOD. Your wrong in so many way Jesus is our savior because of GOD Jude 1:25, Jesus saved us because he reconcilled God to us,that's enough corrected of now
stut9882iwxk, I am sorry but you are going to have a hard time separated Jesus Glory from God's. The Father and the Son share the same glory - Isaiah (42:8) "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. John (5:23) that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. In these two Scriptures we see that Jesus must be God because he shares his glory with no one!
stut9882iwxk, Revelation(5:13) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Here the Father and the Son both receive the same worship, here the Father and the Son share the same glory, they are both glorified and worshiped together the same!
stut9882iwxk, 1879 "His position is contrasted with men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having 'all power in heaven and earth'. Hence it is said, 'Let all of the angels of God worship him' [that must included Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has 'by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.'" (C.T. Russell, Watchtower Nov. 1879, bracketed comment in the original)
stut9882iwxk, alright then lets look at Revelation (5:13) Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" This plainly shows the Father and the Son sharing the same glory!
John 17:22"Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. Also it Jehovah that made lord and christ Act 2:36.Also It really was NOT Jesus causing any miracles for Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;" and Act 2:24 and GAL 1:1.
Jesus is God (Theos) in the flesh according to the Original Text 1 Tim. 3:16. Why did the Watch Tower change the title "God" to "he". This is because JWs have a fundamental problem with the fact that Jesus is God in this text. This is only one discrepancy among many. Micah 5:2 show Jesus as having goings forths from eternity. Jesus was not a Son in eternity, only when He became a Man. God said, "He shall be to Me a Son...". Cont...
You must do more research. Many bibly don't use GOD at I Tim 3:16,because it is NOT in the Greek,so the comment "Why did the Watch Tower change the title "God" to "he". This is because JWs have a fundamental problem with the fact that Jesus is God in this text." is a dogmatic presupposition of yours bias againt the WT and quote vs 4 not just 2.Mic 5:4 And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God. Only The Father is GOD
stut9882iwxk, God is not in the Greek Original Text of 1 Tim. 3:16? : "καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον ((Θεὸς)) ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ ἀνελήφθη ἐν δόξῃ".
Please get serious,if you continue to make these mistakes this conversation,will not be fruitfull.I will let yourself contradict yourself. Question ,Why is "Theos" in brachets,if is originally there"
stut9882iwxk, I put the ((brackets)) there to highlight it to u, but it is present in the Original Text without the parenthesis. My point is irrefutable.
There are 2 variants at 1 TIM. "WHO" and "GOD",but still you dogmatically try to defend your position by saying "My point is irrefutable" Please,research more. Only Jehovah is GOD both Paul and Jesus said so John 17:3 and Pauls' Definitional Creed at 1 Cor 8:6
stut, We don't say that YHWH is not the God of Jesus. The Father is God. Yet Jesus is acknowledged by YHWH as God in Hebrews 1:8. My point has not and cannot be refuted. If Jesus was not God, Thomas would have been rebuked for worshipping Jesus calling Him God when he seen Him after His resurrection. In the same manner the angel rebuked John for worshipping him, so also would Jesus have done. If He wasn't God, He would have been in sin to receive that honor from Thomas.
stut, The title "God" used for the Father, is fittingly used to define the Son. Jesus said that all judgment has been delivered to the So that all may fear the Son as they fear the Father. I fear Him as God. That is what makes me a christian. This is how u can tell christianity from false religion.
Hebrew 1:8 Can be taken nominativly "GOD is THY Throne" or vocativley "Thy throne O GOD". But the next verse shows "Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows." which is fitting because this is a quote from Psa 45:6 which is originally apllied to a OT King. Hebrews 1"8 is qualified and in no way by it's second application to Jesus prove he is GOD.
stut, Titus 2:13 speaks of the appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ. God the Father isn't going to appear physically with Him. So the great God and our Savior in this text is Jesus Christ.
stut, Back to Heb. 1:8. God said, "Your throne O God is forever and ever...". It is what is says plainly. The second application does not refute it's 1st plain application. We don't argue that the Father is the God of Jesus Christ. U just don't accept the diety of Christ.
stut, 1 Cor. 8:6 does not contradict my point. Why did the Pharasees take up stones to stone Jesus? It was because He said , "I and My Father are One.". They understood this as I and other christians understand this. He clearly in this passage declared that He was God. They even said this when they were trying to stone Him.
Paul said for HIM and others thee is the ONE GOD who is the Father,that is Pauls defintion of the ONE GOD. also read Joh 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be ONE, even as we are. and 22"Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are ONE".I accept the Paul's definition as to what and who GOD is 1 Cor.8:6
stut, That "they may be one" is in reference to the church as a body. So why can u not accept the "as We are One" in Jn 17:22 to be in reference to the Godhead bodily being one as easily as u can understand the church being one? This Godhead Bodily can be seen in tact in Gen. 1:26 when God said let Us make man in Our image. God said in Heb. 1 that creation is the work of Jesus's hands. So every scripture in Gen. 1 that says "God made" is Jesus in action. Where it says "God said" is the Father.
The apostles are one with Jesus and GOD in purpose.They are ONE just as Jesus and GOD are one.Both Jesus and Paul defintion of the ONLY and ONE GOD is the Father,which is the GOD of Jesus.Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.Rom 16:2 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory for ever. him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 15:6 that with one accord ye may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
stut, I don't deny God the Father, but u are denying the diety of Christ. Why are u ignoring the fact that Jesus is referred to as God in Genesis 1 in all the verses that say "God made", when God makes this clear in Hebrews 1:10? Answer this.
I never said you are denying that God is the Father.but you take GOD the Father as one "Person" in GOD.Scripturally,GOD is for PAUL his ONE GOD,a seperate being and person than Jesus.When the bible seaks of Only and ONE God it is the Being The Father a distinct entity from Jesus.Never is the word ONLY and ONE or ONE WISE GOD in reference to Jesus. GOD is a seperate being, created the world THROGH this onlybegotten,firstborn son. Hebrew 1:1-3,shows that GOD spoke in the OT but now it is his SON.
stut, It becomes circular reasoning when u don't tackle the reference source of ur opposition in a debate. I commented on ur scripture references. U should be fair and answer my points of reference to the connection between what God said in Heb, 1:10 and the reference to Jesus in Gen. 1:7, 16, 25, Gen. 2:3-4. Answer this in particular. Even in Isaiah 9:6 one of the titles for Jesus is "The everlasting Father", among the other titles in this verse. There is no denying the fact that He's God.
"Circular Reasoning" there is nothing circular about Paul Definitional Cread 1 Cor 8:6(ASV) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him." You are ignoring what I said or you just don't understand. Jehovah,Yes the God of the Messiah was talking to his Son,THROUGH whom HE Jehovah created the earth. By Calling the SON the LITERAL Everlasting Father you are teaching Sabelianism.
stut, Sabelianism? I simply gave u Is. 9:6 which clearly speaks of Jesus and what His name shall be called. One of which is "The everlasting Father". Isaiah 9:6 should not be labeled Sabelianism. This is simply confirmation of the points that I made concerning my references to Hebrews 1:8-10 and Genesis chapters 1 & 2, Titus 2:13, etc. He is God. As far as ur perception circular reasoning, I acknowlegded 1 Cor. 8:6 as it does not contradict my position. No one can explain away Isaiah 9:6.
If you use Is.9:6 in any way other than EVERLASTING FATHER in a lesser sence then it is indeed Modalism.Jesus became out "Father" so to speak only when his GOD resurected him Gal 1:1. Paul at 1 Cor,gave to us HIS definition of who and what GOD is,and Jesus at John 17:3 stated who GOD his GOD was and does indeed contradict your trinity.I already adressed Gen by stating that GOD was speaking to his son.Titus does NOT say the appearing "of the Great GOD" but his Glory,Jesus comes in that Glory.
stut, Ur saying Titus does not say the appearing "of the Great God", but on the contrary, it does. U must be coming out of the New World's Translation. It does not accurately translate what the Original Text says. U are biased to make such a statement when the Original Text literally says in Titus 2:13 "μεγάλου θεοῦ " i.e "of the great God".
stut, u said u addressed Genesis by stating that GOD was speaking to his son. Jesus was not God's Son until He was born into this world. So ur reasoning is in error. U did not properly address Genesis because u assumed that Jesus was the Son of God in Genesis. He was the Word in the beginning with God; and God was the Word according to the Original Text of John 1:1. For our sakes He became the Son of God. Heb. 1:5 reveals that Jesus was to become the Son of God.
stut, What do u have to say about John 1:1? Everything I said is confirmed by every scripture I cited to u. Jesus is God with YHWH in Genesis when YHWH said "Let Us make man in Our image.". He is God in all the verses in Genesis 1 that says "God made". Thomas (called Didymas) was right to call Jesus his Lord and his God. Jesus in response to this called him a believer. No one has nor can refute this. If He wasn't God, He would be a sinner for receiving that honor from Thomas.
stut, u have not touched the point I've made concerning Thomas. According to ur position, u would consider him wrong for worshipping Jesus as his Lord and his God. Well, what do u say? Was he right or was he wrong? If he was right, then u agree that Jesus is God. But if u say that he was wrong, then u contradict Jesus for calling him a believer as a result of this thing. It's really simple. Consider this a challenge to ur position.
stut, As u can see by now, u might as well be reading a novel. The New World's Translation would be tempting if I ran out of toilet paper. U need to switch to something more reliable like the KJV, or NKJV, or something else. I see u have not met my challenge concerning Thomas. I'm still waiting for a reply to that. Was he right or was he wrong?
Your "Christin" words "TOILET PAPER" should also be apllied to the following bibles because they stres the manifestinf or apearance of the "GLORY" of the Great GOD" not "the glorious appearing of the GREAT GOD"ASV,BBE,Bishops,Darby,DRB,EMTV,ESV,FLS,Geneva,GNB,GNT,GW,INR,LBLA,LITV,Murdock,PJFA,RV,WNT and YLT. I will correct of for the last time the greek read "τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ" literally "of the GLORY of the Great GOD".
John 20:28 use of the article HO,does NOT mean he is a "TRINITARIAN" GOD.If you researched more you would know that in Greek when a noun has a or atteched to a possesive it can have the definite article.John 20:17 Jesus said he was going to his GOD(Micah 5:4) and then vs 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name." Chist means anointed by the Being Jehovah. I accept Pauls Creed "One GOD the FATHER. ENDS
stut, I've done plenty research. I don't need to go into details with u concerning the Greek, because u will not agree with me though I make myself clear in that matter. Let's just get to the creme filling, shall we? Ur explanation of Jn. 20:28 does not explain away the obvious. Everyone w/ common sense knows he said God. What else could he have said? Was Thomas right or was he wrong for falling down before Jesus in worship calling Him his Lord and his God? Why have u avoided this question?
stut, I must admit, I am not a Greek scholar. I am not fluent in this language.I don't really need to have that skill in full to bring out an important point concerning Titus 2:13 I have studied the words as they appear in the bible word for word. Here is the Literal Translation: Expecting the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Jesus Christ. He is the God and Savior of us; no matter the point that it does literally says "glory of the great God".
I am the one who said it should be "of the GLORY" and NOT Glrious which you insisted ,and It is indeed extremely important that it says the apearance of GLORY the GREAT GOD,which makes since the Son will come in his Fathers Glory with the angels Mt 16:27.The bible is FULL of confession by the Apostles and Jesus had a GOD. I worship the Great and Almighty GOD,the same one that Jesus prayed to.The son is a diferent being than his GOD John Joh 14:1 ...believe in God, believe also in me.
Thomas surpise was NOT Jesus indentity,but his resurrection, that Thomas doubted. Thomas could have apllied THEOS to Jesus because of Is 9:6 and it does say Mighty but NOT Almighty GOD. Also in vs 18 Jesus as a resurrecting being said he was going to his GOD, that qualifies Thomas statment that Jesus was the MESSIAH the Mighty GOD after his resurrection.Jesus was the Son of the MOST high not the most high.God raised his SON,Rom 10:9,Act 3:14,Act 5:30,and Gal 1:1. Theos is not a proper name in GR
(ASV) looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Bishops) Lokyng for that blessed hope and appearyng of the glorie of the great God, and our sauiour Iesus Christe,DRB) Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
Even you KJV is ambiguous for it reads" of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. .The 1611 ED. has"appearing of the great God, and our Sauiour Iesus Christ, "
stut, Our debate is like Elijah the prophet when he challenged the prophets of Baal. JWs are like Baal's prophets in this case, of which u are unable to answer John 2:19. Usually when my opposition lose a debate, they never return to concede. I count their absence as a concession. Not that it's about winning a debate. My biggest hope is that u are converted. Otherwise, I wouldn't be doing this. All christians are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Cont...
stut, That name is Jesus! Because after that the Holy Ghost has came upon Peter and the others, they preached and baptized people in the name of Jesus. Notice the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is one, and there is no other name under heaven whereby one can be saved other than the name of Jesus, according to Peter's gospel in Acts 4:12. Case closed...
stut, if ur going to apply that theory to Thomas using the title "Mighty God" in Is. 9:6, then u must also apply the title "Everlasting Father" in the same verse. Also, how can JWs accept the title "the Lord" for Jesus with the definite article, but can only accept the title "a god" with an indefinite article for Jesus, when the Father is called "the Lord" with the definite article in Acts 4:26, and Jesus is called "the Lord" with the definite article in Acts 4:33. They are both "the Lord".
You are indeed not paying attention to what I wrote,for I did deed do acknowledge that the SON is the Everlasting in a secondary sence,because it was THROUGH him that we have the possibilty to Gain everlasting life From Jehovah,seperate entity the Almight GOD .Again you are arguing without considering that Jesus is Lord because the Almighty gave his onlybetton the TITLE and Authority Acts 2:36.Lord when applied to GOD is Jehovah,the GOD of Jesus.
stut, Did Jesus raise Himself up according to Jn. 2:19? If u say yes, then He is God. He has to be, otherwise the scriptures would be contradictory, because it said in Acts that God raised Him from the dead. Jesus did not lie. He clearly said "destroy this temple and in 3 days "I" will raise it up." If u say He didn't, then u call Him a liar. Also, u didn't use the whole title used in Is. 9:6. It is "Everlasting Father", not "Everlasting". How come u didn't say the whole title?
I forgot add add Father which is quite evident.I have already shown you ,that Jesus placed FAITH in his GOD. It was by his FAITH in God that he "RAISED" himself,that is why It is always GOD that receives credit for Jesus resurection. Also Mar 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy FAITH hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague." It was her FAITH that healed her. She placed faith in Jesus and the Scripotures show that it was Jehovah doing the Miracles THGROUGH Jesus.
stut, I'm not denying that the Father is the God of our Lord Jesus. He was and is faithful to the Father, but this does not change the fact that He is God. Jesus is equal with God according to Phi. 2:6. Vs. 7 says that He emptied Himself and took on the form of a slave. U can't compare Him to the woman with the issue of blood. He became God's Son when He left His glory to become a Man. He eternally existed before the beginning as a part of the Godhead bodily. Jesus Christ = God.
You are NOT Denying? Yes you indeed are,The NT Apostles make it clear that Jesus had a GOD the Almighty,and it is evident that Jesus prayed and worshiped Jehovah a seperate Entity,not just a seperate Trinitarian concept of "Person". I worship the God of our lord Jesus Christ.If you worship the Son,then you are NOT worshipping the Same God that the Jesus worshipped.Phil 2:6actually proves my point, it shows that thew WORD EMPTIED himself of the divine form and became a man.Jesus was a man.
stut, No I am not denying that the Father is the God of our Lord. I'm just pointing out Jesus's divinity, because the Bible also makes it clear that Jesus is God. U said, "If you worship the Son,then you are NOT worshipping the Same God that the Jesus worshipped." How not? According to what u just said, everyone in the NT who worshipped Him is guilty of not worshipping the same God as Jesus did. Their examples kill ur argument. Look as how the Watch Tower butchered Jn. 1:1.
The word "worship" is translated from proskuneo which also means "to show homage,obeisance or to prostrate onesself". Of course they showed homage to Jesus for he was the CHRIST(the anointed one of GOD)Again The NT writesr knew that Jehovah was the GOD of Jesus,and they along with Jesus prayed to that GOD.Your circular reasoning is continuously refuted by the Scriptures. The true axiom is that Jesus was anointed by his GOD and was resurrected by his GOD Gal 1:1.
I am very familiar with the Greek,what is your point,and please make it very specific. Make sure you are indeed familiar with all the issues regarding this "most debated text".
@epw0003 Sir if you would please look at the Greek scripture you pointed out. I will try to point out something without getting into too much detail. As you posted above τὸν = The, θεόν = God, καὶ = and, θεὸς = God". Look at the Greek word for god in your post. There are two different Greek words for god. θεόν = God, θεὸς = God. So this would mean that it is speaking of two different types of the word. Two different gods.
@bossmanjef, What u pointed out is not 2 different words, but a difference between greek and english grammer. The rules are different. In english, grammer never affects the spelling of a noun, but in the greek nouns are affected. Not 2 Gods, but 1...
@bossmanjeff, I can give u sort of an example. Look at how I use an english pronoun in a couple of sentences. "Unto whom does this belong?" "Who had this?" Do u see how the word "who" is transformed because of grammer? So it is with the greek; but with nouns.
stut, This is word for word. Nothing omitted and nothing supplied. Notice how "a god" does not appear here in the Original Text with the indefinite article and the lower cased "g". Why did the WT distort John 1:1? Nowhere in this text is the title "god" with a lower cased "g". It didn't say "and the word was a god" (like the WathchTower would try to decieve people to believe); but it simply said, "and God was the word".
stut, How can u call a clean exergesis of the scriptures circular reasoning? It's the JWs who can't explain why the WatchTower has corruptedly mistranslated God's Holy Word. From just looking at how they have corrupted Jn. 1:1 shows that the New World's Translation should not be considered as a reliable resource for reproof and instruction. They should all be burned. Jesus is the word. God was "the word" (Jesus). He was made a little lower than the angels for our sakes. He chose to do this.
stut, ur argument is weak because u only speak of Jesus in reference to Him being a man. His essence has never changed since the beginning. Jn. 1:1 says He was God. This agrees with Heb. 1:8 when God acknowledges Him as such. Why do JW's not concentrate on the identity of Jesus as the Word of God? The answer is simple. It is because of John 1:1! U focuses on the status of Him after that He left His glory to become a Man for our sakes. This never changed who He was before He became a Man.
stut, Along with all the damaging refutation to u weak and beggarly positon, I must address the issue of worship. Regardless of Jesus being the Christ, if He wasn't God it would be sin to worship Him as Thomas clearly did after His resurrection. U defining the greek word for "worship" to say what it "also" means does not change the tenor of the scriptures. These people worshipped Him as one worships God. He even forgave sin as a result of receiving worship. So don't try to spin the word worship
You assume,what you have not proven,I have proven that both Jesus and the Apostles worshipped the same GOD. I also showed plenty of texts without any gramatical dificulties that it was GOD ,Yes the Father AND God of Jesus that is actually given that credit for the resurrection. I already adressed Hebrews 1:8.The word proskuneo does ALSO mean to show homage,like it or not,and it does NOT change the NT theme.Jesus forgave sin because he recieved that authority from his GOD.
stut, Is it because u have a problem acknowleding Him as the Everlasting Father? He said He is the Almighty in Rev. 1:8. He is the Alpha and Omega in this context. The Father and the Lamb are the temple of the Holy City in Rev. 21:22. They are one temple, not temples. How can JWs understand these things, but can't understand that Jesus and the Father are one God?
stut, ur position also convicts Thomas of having more than one God. This would violate what God said when he said, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Jesus said to Satan "It is written, you shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve." If Jesus is not the great "I am", then why did He tell the jews to destroy the temple of His body and in 3 days "He Himself" would raise it up in John 2:19? If u say He didn't raise it, then u make Him a liar because He said He would.
stut, With this being said, Who do u think rested from all His works in Genesis 2:2? The heavens and the earth are the works of Jesus's hands. Since creation is His handiwork, then it's only logical to conclude that Jesus is indeed "God" who rested on the 7th day in Gen. 2:2.
stut9882iwxk, I hope to hear from u soon. This is all about edification. Jesus is drawing all men to Himself. The Watch Tower is exposed as a work of darkness.
stut9882iwxk, U told a bold faced lie! Do u not see how I highlighted the word θεός in double parenthesis in the Original Text? This is the Greek term Theos and is translated "God" in the English language. U must do more research. The fact is that Jesus is God in the text of 1 Tim. 3:16. This is not a dogmatic presupposition of my alleged bias against the WT. It's good scholarship. God called Jesus God in Heb 1:8. Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus referred to as "a god". Do ur due diligence.
stut9882iwxk, Also, If Jesus was not God, then He would have been guilty for not rebuking Thomas after that he had finally seen the risen Christ. He said, "my Lord and my God". Rather than rebuking him, Jesus calls him a believer because he had seen Him. The angel in Revelation rebuked John for doing what Thomas did to Jesus.
stut9882iwxk, Also, Jesus said among those born of women there has not risen a greater prophet than John the Baptist. Jesus (called a Prophet by Moses) is obviously greater than John, seeing that John was not worthy to stoop down to unloose Jesus's sandles. If John is the greatest prophet born among women, then Jesus here alludes to Himself as being God just as it says in 1 Tim 3:16 in the Original Text of the Bible.
Hi Epidome. Long time no hear. I just watched this video. I actually have the '85 translation and the 1955 translation. The older translation actually says in John chapter 1: "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God." They keep getting further away from the exact translation. Love ya bro.
jdrahn, I am sorry it has been a little while since I have checked this video. Is there a way that I could get the 85 and 55 translations myself. They keep trying to revise the NWT to fit their doctrine yet they serve only to further break t
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Ever notice that Only the Father is referred to as "God the" like "God the father". nowhere does it say God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit
.And what is the Holy Spirits name? Father = Jehovah Son = Jesus Christ Holy Spirit = ???
Also Jesus said many times he Loves the Father, And The Father says he Loves the Son.
Can anyone show us where it is ever stated That the Holy Spirit Loves the Son or the Father?
Do they not love the HS? or does it love the other two?
pcbarter 1 year ago
bossmanjef, I don't understand. Our comments are being marked as spam?
epidome 1 year ago
The last section of this video is something that I am making a video about which is that the Trinity is proven in the resurrection of Christ. If you are wondering how that can be done wait and see that all three persons of the Trinity are credited for raising him from the dead.
epidome 2 years ago
On another note there are other scriptures that clearly show there is two separate entities. Such as John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. If Jesus was the Almighty God shouldnt the scripture read: For God loved the world so much that he gave himself, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life
bossmanjef 2 years ago
@bossmanjef, I am not epidome. Also, the Greek we are dealing with is the common, so the classical would be of no use to me in this discussion. U seem to be in the same state of mind that Nicodemas was in when the Lord tried to explain to him how one must be born again. There is only 1 God. There is only 1 Lord. The terms Lord and God are used in the same respect in the New Testament. The Father is called Lord. Likewise, Jesus is called God.
epw0003 2 years ago
The Greek we are dealing with is Classical The New Testament was written in classic Greek and that is what it was translated from. Thats what causes the issue. Its an issue of readers not understanding Greek to English. You compared this convo to that of Jesus and Nicodemas. He could not understand. Would you please explain the scripture i mentioned above?
bossmanjef 2 years ago
@bossmanjeff, It can only be concluded that they are indeed individuals. But they are co- eternal. Creation itself is indeed Jesus's handiwork. For God the Father Himself acknowledges this in Hebrews 1:8-11. He calls Jesus God and He also calls Him Lord. Jesus said that whoever sees Him has seen the Father. He told the pharasees that He and the Father are 1, not 2. The pharasees took up stones to throw at Him because they knew that He was saying that He was God.
epw0003 2 years ago
Again I believe you are taking this out of context. You are only looking at one section of Heb and not the full book. If you look above in vrs 1-6 of Chap 1 you can clearly see Jesus was Gods firstborn of all creation and given the title of Son. He helped God create the heavens ect. They are one ONLY in the aspect that they agree. ((Example) Agree on right from wrong)
bossmanjef 2 years ago
@bossmanjef, I did not take the Heb. 1:8-11 out of context. I've read the whole book many times over, and Heb. 1:8-11 is a complete thought. There is nothing in Hebrews that contadicts that God called Him both God and Lord, as He did very vividly in Heb. 1:8-11. U are arguing against the clear text of scripture, not me.
epw0003 2 years ago
Sir, then why have you not explained the above ver 1-6 that I mentioned. I did not say Heb1:8-11 was not not a complete thought, You prolly should say that the Whole Book of Heb. is a complete thought and not just 1:8-11. Also i am just having a conversaton why are you getting so angry?
bossmanjef 2 years ago
@bossmanjeff, Heb. 1:8-10, "But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
epw0003 2 years ago
Please look at that scrip. you quoted. "therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" God anointed Jesus a (god). it can get confussing. You must look at it as a whole book and not just certian scrip
bossmanjef 2 years ago
@bossmanjeff, Now, what part of God & Lord don't u understand? Simply put, if Jesus is not God then He is a sinner for not rebuking Thomas for worshipping Him and calling Him his Lord and His God. U are the one with the explaining to do.
epw0003 2 years ago
I do not agreee because God appointed jesus to the position a god.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
@bossmanjeff, U disagree with John 1:1. He was given the glory He had before the world was. Jesus was never created. His has no beginning, even as the Father who has no beginning. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and God was the Word. Jesus gave it all up to become the Son of God. He was equal to God and humbled Himself and walked as a Man. God said of Him that "He shall be to Me a Son and I shall be to Him a Father." Before this Jesus existed co- eternally with Him.
epw0003 2 years ago
Wait a moment you said they are one, now you say "Jesus existed co- eternally with Him." Which is it??
bossmanjef 2 years ago
Is Jesus and God one? Or did Jesus exist with God co-eternally???
bossmanjef 2 years ago
Are u serious? I never said that Jesus and the Father were one individual, but one God in essence though they agree as individuals. Like how the church is one, but is not one member. Jesus is a member of the Godship as a christian is a member of the church. It is obvious that u have not paid attention to anything I have posted before.
epw0003 2 years ago
I am sorry but you did 3 posts down from the top you say 1 God and then again25 posts down you say 1 God. Maybe this was just a mistake on how you were explaining it or how I was understanding it. On another note PLEASE EXPLAIN ALL OTHER SCRIPTURES I MENTIONED instead of avoiding them.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
Also you did not bother to touch on the common greek to classic greek comment i made 3 posts down
bossmanjef 2 years ago
The whole point is that nouns in the greek are affected by grammer. You thought 2 different Gods were mentioned in John 1:1 because of ur misinterpretation of the greek text. I am not going to go tick for tat. I mentioned Thomas's worship of Jesus and his calling Him his Lord and His ((God)). I challenged another person to that many days before u surfaced. Why don't u just go and explore the comments in this video and answer these things that no one who has been in opposition could answer?
epw0003 2 years ago
So let me get this straight you asked me to point out where YOU said God and Jesus were 1 and I DID. Now you dont even notice it. This must be because you see you made a mistake. You just go on like a broken record back to Thomas calling Jesus Lord and God. I guess in your mind you are telling yourself I will go back to the same point I made and forget that I even messed up in my posting.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
So I will answer this again but I will break it down for you. He called him Lord and God because that is what was prophesied to Israel that is who would come. The king of the JEWS aka Lord. Thomas recognized Jesus was given authority and power like God.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
Not a mess up. If this is what u do to get credibility, while at the same time avoid answering the obvious, then u are allowing yourself to be a tool of Satan. Don't u know that course jesting is sin? The only way for ur point to stand is for Jesus to be a sinner for not rebuking Thomas for calling Him his Lord and his God, if indeed He was not his God. This refutes ur blasphemous position. Again don't blame me, u have the truth to blame for this.
epw0003 2 years ago
U seem to claim some authority in the knowledge of the greek. Why don't u break down the rules for us so that we may receive edification? Break it down for us. I did some research, but I cannot say that I am an expert in the greek language.
epw0003 2 years ago
I am sorry but I do not feel I need to point out classical Greek grammar to you when you cant even debunk my statement on it.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
I am weary of debating new ppl who come along with the same tired arguments, when they can just read recent and former debates where ppl who have taken their position have been utterly refuted. It's pointless. I don't have the capacity to debate thousands of people individually who come one after the other with the same arguments. Just go into the archives and look at the last man who got shut down with ur arguments and put urself in his shoes. Don't blame me. U have the truth to blame for this.
epw0003 2 years ago
Why do you keep asking me to answer your questions about scriptures you present yet you will not even answer any of mine. Well I will tell you why because YOU CANT ANSWER THEM, YOU DONT KNOW. So to sum it up. Jehovah is GOD almighty and Jesus was the first born of all creation and assist god in making the rest of this universe. Jesus even acknowledged that his father God Jehovah is GREATER. I provided scriptures to prove this.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
Yet you cannot explain to my how I am wrong. I hoped this would be a peaceable debate yet I see we cannot. I am sorry to have upset you
bossmanjef 2 years ago
This question was already raised before u ever decided to even come around looking for a debate. If u want to be fair, answer the matter with Thomas, as no one who took ur fallacious stance was successful in answering. Personal attacks cannot cloak the fact that u came into a place where the question existed here before u. Now answer it or hold ur peace.
epw0003 2 years ago
I answered this already. Do you just skip my answer and ask another question when you are stuck as I have seen? I will answer this question again.
Heb 1:8-10 Jesus was appointed to that title /headship as a god/lord. Is 9:6,7 also state about Jesus birth he was a god. That is why Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for calling him god. Because Jesus is a god but not the Almighty God or Most High God as stated in Psa 83:18
bossmanjef 2 years ago
I will wait until you have had chance to explain how OR IF my reasoning is incorrect on why Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for calling him god and lord.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
After u consider this, u should be able to see why calling Jesus "a god", as in a different god from the God of heaven, is blasphemous. This is because Jesus was receiving worship in the same timeframe where He told the devil, "It is written, thou shall worship the Lord thy God and Him only shall thou serve." If He was not the Lord thy God as the Father is the Lord thy God, then that would make Him guilty for receiving worship according to the scripture that He quoted to the devil...
epw0003 2 years ago
This is why the matter concerning Thomas remains unanswered by those who don't receive Jesus as God, rather than "a god".
epw0003 2 years ago
Let me start by saying that I have not been at all distressed by u, though you've implied that I was somehow upset. And these things you've said in a taunt. Nevertheless, I am not moved by these things. Ur answer pointing at Heb. 1:8-10 did not answer the Godship Jesus had before leaving His glory to become a Man. U are looking at Christ as having been a Man 1st before ever having the title of God, when Phi. 2 and Jn. 1:1 says differently. He was always God. He became a Man in due time.
epw0003 2 years ago
Well it seemed you were upset with the words you were using, it looked to me as if you were upset. I am sorry if I was wrong. My reply to your question was not to answer Jesus Godship before leaving Heaven. It was to explain why Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for calling him god. I am not sure why you even thought it.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
Lets get back to our main disagreement. You state God is 1. I think we both may not be understanding each other. Do you believe that the Father , the Son, and the Holy Ghost are 1?=Meaning 1 person, 1 entity, or 1 supernatural creature? Or do you mean they are in Union with each other? =Meaning they agree, Or work together?
bossmanjef 2 years ago
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epw0003 2 years ago
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epw0003 2 years ago
So it is with God who revealed this mystery in the New Testament.
epw0003 2 years ago
Your Comment was removed. Not sure why so i have reposted it per the email that was sent to me via Youtube
bossmanjef 2 years ago
They are individuals and member of one Godhead bodily, just like the church is not one individual member but many making up 1 body. God is 1 in 3 persons. Also, my answer concerning His Godship was in response to ur saying He was appointed the title of "a god"., as to make Him a lesser god. The Father is greater, but in essence They are equal. Like in the church there are elders, yet everyone in the church are equally members of the same body.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
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They are individuals and members of one Godhead bodily, just like the church is not one individual member but many making up 1 body. God is 1 in 3 persons. Also, my answer concerning His Godship was in response to ur saying He was appointed the title of "a god"., as to make Him a lesser god. The Father is greater, but in essence They are equal. Like in the church there are elders, yet everyone in the church are equally members of the same body.
epw0003 2 years ago 2
If you are stating they are three separate entities then we agree. We all should just keep in mind that God almighty (Jehovah)is greater than his son Jesus. He is show in John 5:19 and John 14:28. And that Jesus is just the mediator between man and God Almighty
bossmanjef 2 years ago
U have not answered correctly. This is because of what I said before. Your position is blasphemous. If Jesus is not the Lord thy God as the Father is the Lord thy God, then Jesus is guilty and is a sinner because He received worship when the scripture He quoted to Satan said, "you shall worship the Lord thy God and Him ((only)) shall thou serve." He cannot be belittled to "just a mediator" between man and God Almighty. He is not guilty therefore He is Almighty God. No other way could He be right
epw0003 2 years ago
The scripture gave no room for anyone other than God Almighty to receive worship. There is no way for any JW to reconcile this fact to justify their theology against the nature of who Christ is. From this direct commandment that Jesus Himself quoted to the devil, we know that it was never altered, even in the New Testament where He quoted it. This will never change. According to this Christ is either God or a sinner. If u say He isn't Almighty God, then u are guilty of blasphemy...
epw0003 2 years ago
This is my last reply because our posts have been marked as SPAM.2 posts up you say "U have not answered correctly. There was no question asked by you. Also you quoted a scrip you shall worship the Lord thy God and Him only shall thou serve" Jesus says THY God and to HIM alone thou serve. SO why did Jesus state himself in the 3rd person. Since you believe he is Almighty God then he should have said you shall worship the ME and shall thou serve" Thanks for helping me end this disagreement.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
@bossmanjef - You have not answered correctly. A question does not have to be asked when it is implied. If there is a disagreement, when either party who is in opposition speaks, it is in answer to support his/her position, such as you have failed to do. Yes, I've quoted Jesus telling the devil that the LORD God is to be worshipped, and He "only" to be served. He often spoke in the 3rd person. Your argument has no bearing.
epw0003 1 year ago
@bossmanjef-People worshipped Him. Bottom line, if He was not Almighty God, He would not be our Redeemer. He would be a sinner for receiving worship and for being a hypocrite for telling the devil that only the LORD God is to be worshipped and He "only" to be served, then went about straightway and received worship, if in fact He was not God. You are not listening. Your position is blasphemous! If what you say were true, then there wouldn't be a christian faith. He would then need to be redeemed
epw0003 1 year ago
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@bossmanjef-People worshipped Him. Bottom line, if He was not Almighty God, He would not be our Redeemer. He would be a sinner for receiving worship and for being a hypocrite for telling the devil that only the LORD God is to be worshipped and He "only" to be served, then went about straightway and received worship, if in fact He was not God. You are not listening. Your position is blasphemous! If what you say were true, then there wouldn't be a christian faith. He would then need to be redeemed
epw0003 1 year ago
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@bossmanjef-People worshipped Him. Bottom line, if He was not Almighty God, He would not be our Redeemer. He would be a sinner for receiving worship and for being a hypocrite for telling the devil that only the LORD God is to be worshipped and He "only" to be served, then went about straightway and received worship, if in fact He was not God. You are not listening. Your position is blasphemous! If what you say were true, then there wouldn't be a christian faith. He would then need to be redeemed
epw0003 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bossmanjef-People worshipped Him. Bottom line, if He was not Almighty God, He would not be our Redeemer. He would be a sinner for receiving worship and for being a hypocrite for telling the devil that only the LORD God is to be worshipped and He "only" to be served, then went about straightway and received worship, if in fact He was not God. You are not listening. Your position is blasphemous! If what you say were true, then there wouldn't be a christian faith. He would then need to be redeemed
epw0003 1 year ago
Also I need to point out how u give Him the title "a god" when that is clearly not what the bible says. I am not a master of the greek, but I know that the term God for Jesus is not coupled w/ an indefinite article. He is "God" just like the Father is God. They were 1 God when the Father said "Let Us make man in Our image." In Gen. 1 where ever u see it saying "God said" that is the Father. Where ever u see it saying "God made", that is Jesus. Look at it very closely in light of Heb. 1:8-10...
epw0003 2 years ago
Jesus gave it all up to redeem us and then to receive it all back as He said to the Father in John chapter 17.
epw0003 2 years ago
Jesus was always God.
epw0003 2 years ago
@bossmanjeff, Is the Father the Lord? Of course He is. Is not also Christ called Lord? Then how many Lords are there? Eph. 4:5 says there is only one, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism..." Jesus is God because God said so. Since God called Him God, then they are one as God because God could not break His own commandment by allowing another god to be worshipped. Ur theology is blasphemous, because ur position declares Christ as being another God who can be worshipped, when God's law says no other
epw0003 2 years ago
Sir, again I believe you are taking this out of context. At Eph 4:5 it does state One Lord, one faith, one baptism I would suggest looking at Ephesians as a whole book and not just a part. Because if you look down further into he book you will see in eph. 4:15-onward Paul explains 4:5 he likens that scrip to the human body as working together. So as with the Father God and his Son Jesus, they work harmoniously together and cooperate.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
Further more at Ex 33:18-20 God tells moses no man has seen god and lived. So i would conclude that man cannot see god or they will die. On another note would you explain all teh below scrip i posted?
bossmanjef 2 years ago
Also while you quote Ex. 33, U did not mention where Philip said to Christ, " Show us the Father and it will suffice us." What was the divine response? " Have I not been with you so long and yet you have not known Me Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. So why say show us the Father?" Are u saying that He lied?
epw0003 2 years ago
@bossmanjef, Now if they being the enemies of the Lord could understand this, why is your heart hardened to where u cannot grasp this concept. Even as Nicodemus could not go a 2nd time into his mother's womb to be born again, the Lord Jesus cannot be considered a 2nd God. For the Lord does not share His glory with another. Only God can forgive sins and be worshipped. No other God is worthy of that than the one true God who is revealed in the Person of Christ.
epw0003 2 years ago
There are a whole slew of scriptures that dispute that God is one. Jhn 14: 28 Jesus says God is greater than I. Also Jesus prayed as shown in the following Luke 3:21)Luke 6:12,13)(Luke 9:28,29)Luke 11:1-4)Matthew 6:9-13)Mark 1:35-39(Mark 6:45,46)Luke 22:32)John 17:1-26). So who was Jesus preying to? Himself? No his father.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
Also at (Math3:16) Jesus was baptized and Gods Spirit descending like a dove above Jesus then we heard Gods voice out of heaven state This is my SON. If you would please explain all these 1 by 1. Please understand. I am just attempting to understand your viewpoint
bossmanjef 2 years ago
@bossmanjef, Notice how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost all have 1 name in Matthew 28:19? This is because they are 1 God. The Holy Ghost is called the Spirit of God. He is also called The Spirit of Christ. The Holy Ghost was also called the Father by Jesus when He said "It is My Father in Me who does the works..." Paul the Apostle called Him Christ in you the hope of glory. The Trio are equally 1 body as how the church should be. We were made in Their image and likeness...
epw0003 2 years ago
Mat 28:19 does not state that. all it says is to baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Ghost. Below i will provide further scrip to explain why i do not believe in that manner as you. If you can please disprove each scripture i provide.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
Math 20:20-23 20.Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. 21.And he said unto her, What wilt thou ? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit , the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
22.But Jesus answered and said , Ye know not what ye ask . Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of , and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with ? They say unto him, We are able
bossmanjef 2 years ago
.23.And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with : but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give , but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
(If the Holy Spirit were a person and were God, this text would flatly contradict the Trinity doctrine, because it would mean that in some way the Holy Ghost was greater than the Son. Instead, what Jesus said shows that the Father, to whom the Spirit belonged, is greater than Jesus, the Son of man.)
bossmanjef 2 years ago
1 Cor 11:3 3.But I would have you know , that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (Clearly, then, Christ is not God, and God is of superior rank to Christ. It should be noted that this was written about 55 C.E., some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. So the truth here stated applies to the relationship between God and Christ in heaven.)
bossmanjef 2 years ago
bossmanjef, what you seem to be stumbling over is the nature of God, yes they are two people yet one in nature and purpose. They share the same nature which is divinity and substance, they are both God. One is not greater than the other this is clearly shown in Philippians ( 2:6) Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. You see Jesus pre-incarnate was God equal with the Father but chose to relinquish it for a time.
epidome 2 years ago
@bossmanjef, epidome is right. The Father and Christ are equally divine as God, as it says in Phi. 2:6; but I want to address an issue before it arises. Someone will try to use Jn. 14:28 as a rebuttal to this fact. As to say since Jesus says in this scripture that the Father is greater than He, how then can He be equal to Him? The same way Jesus was called the Son of David, and yet David called Him Lord. He who has ears to hear let him hear!
epw0003 2 years ago
Jhn 14:28 I will not touch it. I think you should read further down below Phil 2:6 because you will see that you are taking phil 2:6 out of context. Because below in verses 7-11 you will see that God gave Jesus the title of god, a superior position before all others and the angels would bend there knees because of his new position((This position as being god)OR like god) BTW why does no one bother explaining the others scriptures I posted to prove my point?
bossmanjef 2 years ago
BTW i wanted to tell you both I appreciate the polite conversation we are having without anyone getting to up tight.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
@bossmanjef You are trying to comprehend God from a humanistic perspective. GENENSIS 26:5 and John 8:58 prove Jesus is the God in the flesh.
rentz46 7 months ago
@rentz46 I do not see how Gen 26:5 proves that Jesus is God himself. I read that scrip you sighted many times in a few different bible translations and it is Jehovah God speaking about his promise to Abraham and his seed. Nowhere in any translation does in say or imply that is Jesus talking.
JehovahIsSalvation 7 months ago
@JehovahIsSalvation Those two versus of many proves the trinity. Jesus speaking in John 8:58 stating " before Abraham ,IAM. " Why would Chirst say that if it wasnt him taking in Gen 26 5. The essence of Christ existed before God's manifestation of the flesh.
rentz46 7 months ago
So it is with the Greek; but with nouns. Well there is the issue in itself I believe you are referring koine, or Common Greek. Classical Greek is much MUCH more complicated than koine. If you would be willing Please purchase this book written by an independent person. The book is called Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
WOW this is a hot thread lol. Anyways epidome, you said it was a grammar error on my part about not understanding the Greek word for god and you gave me the example , I can give u sort of an example. Look at how I use an English pronoun in a couple of sentences. "Unto whom does this belong?" "Who had this?" Do u see how the word "who" is transformed because of grammar?
bossmanjef 2 years ago
A philospher once said, unless one can learn from himself he can not understand his teachings. SO LEARN !!!!!!!!!!!
onewatchingoneself 2 years ago
onewatchingoneself, are you so sure that I don't learn from myself or grow in my own personal critiques of myself? Believe me I am one of my critics but I also listen to the message and ponder on it and examine Scripture. Remember I may have made this video but it is composed of the Word of God not sourced in me so of course this message has much to offer me as well for the Word of God is living and the Holy Spirit reveals.
epidome 2 years ago
onewatchingoneself, The Bible said, He who thinks he knows anything knows nothing yet as he ought to know. (1 Corinthians 8:2). Wisdom says in the Book of Proverbs, "keep my commands and live!". Jesus said "he who has ears to hear, let him hear!" Elihu in the Book of Job said, "There is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding". Cont...
epw0003 2 years ago
onewatchingoneself, Paul said in 1 Corinthians. 2:14, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned." Peter said, "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God...". (1 Pe 4:11). So on and so forth. Read the Bible, believe it, live and breath it; then u will be in harmony with everything that God made when He looked and saw everything that He made and it was very good.
epw0003 2 years ago
Jehovah does not give his glory to false gods of the pagan nation Isa 42:8 " I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images", but those who serve him,like Jesus he will give is glory,just as Jesus will do the same,John 17:22"Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one"
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
God's glory will be shared with no one, that's good info thanks
newtubevision 2 years ago
Jg 3:9, 10,Jg 3:15 both Ehud and Othniel were apoointed as SAVIORSalso Moses was a savior of the nation of Israel which Jehovah used agents just like Jesus but in a lesser degree.Acts 2:26 ... God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom YOU impaled.'; 13:23 God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus,.".Jude 25 to [the] only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might and authority for all past eternity and now and into all eternity. Amen. Jeus is the agent!
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
Yes we just konor the son as they honour the Father ,but never does it say worship also Jesus says he has his oum glory you are trying to make it the same by implying it to prove the tinity but it never says it. Plus you don't mean Jesus is God because that wpuld mean Jesus is a trinity which you don't believe,only the Father and God of Jesus Rev3:12 is worshiped in heaven why would that worship include Jesus just he Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, is giving to him.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut9882iwxk, I am a Trinitarian based on Sola Scriptora - Scripture Alone. Your denial of the Trinity requires sources and guides outside of the Bible.
epidome 2 years ago
Jesussaid the glory "I HAD" it says nothing that they share the same glory you're reading that into the text that's special pleading.2 Cor actually saysThe one who did not know sin he made to be sin for us, that we might become Gods righteousness by means of him" With Jesus sacrifice he atoned for our sins because he remained faith to GOD. Your wrong in so many way Jesus is our savior because of GOD Jude 1:25, Jesus saved us because he reconcilled God to us,that's enough corrected of now
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut9882iwxk, I am sorry but you are going to have a hard time separated Jesus Glory from God's. The Father and the Son share the same glory - Isaiah (42:8) "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. John (5:23) that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. In these two Scriptures we see that Jesus must be God because he shares his glory with no one!
epidome 2 years ago
stut9882iwxk, Revelation(5:13) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Here the Father and the Son both receive the same worship, here the Father and the Son share the same glory, they are both glorified and worshiped together the same!
epidome 2 years ago
stut9882iwxk, 1879 "His position is contrasted with men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having 'all power in heaven and earth'. Hence it is said, 'Let all of the angels of God worship him' [that must included Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has 'by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.'" (C.T. Russell, Watchtower Nov. 1879, bracketed comment in the original)
epidome 2 years ago
stut9882iwxk, alright then lets look at Revelation (5:13) Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" This plainly shows the Father and the Son sharing the same glory!
epidome 2 years ago
John 17:22"Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. Also it Jehovah that made lord and christ Act 2:36.Also It really was NOT Jesus causing any miracles for Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;" and Act 2:24 and GAL 1:1.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
Jesus is God (Theos) in the flesh according to the Original Text 1 Tim. 3:16. Why did the Watch Tower change the title "God" to "he". This is because JWs have a fundamental problem with the fact that Jesus is God in this text. This is only one discrepancy among many. Micah 5:2 show Jesus as having goings forths from eternity. Jesus was not a Son in eternity, only when He became a Man. God said, "He shall be to Me a Son...". Cont...
epw0003 2 years ago
You must do more research. Many bibly don't use GOD at I Tim 3:16,because it is NOT in the Greek,so the comment "Why did the Watch Tower change the title "God" to "he". This is because JWs have a fundamental problem with the fact that Jesus is God in this text." is a dogmatic presupposition of yours bias againt the WT and quote vs 4 not just 2.Mic 5:4 And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God. Only The Father is GOD
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut9882iwxk, God is not in the Greek Original Text of 1 Tim. 3:16? : "καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον ((Θεὸς)) ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ ἀνελήφθη ἐν δόξῃ".
epw0003 2 years ago
Please get serious,if you continue to make these mistakes this conversation,will not be fruitfull.I will let yourself contradict yourself. Question ,Why is "Theos" in brachets,if is originally there"
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut9882iwxk, I put the ((brackets)) there to highlight it to u, but it is present in the Original Text without the parenthesis. My point is irrefutable.
epw0003 2 years ago
There are 2 variants at 1 TIM. "WHO" and "GOD",but still you dogmatically try to defend your position by saying "My point is irrefutable" Please,research more. Only Jehovah is GOD both Paul and Jesus said so John 17:3 and Pauls' Definitional Creed at 1 Cor 8:6
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, We don't say that YHWH is not the God of Jesus. The Father is God. Yet Jesus is acknowledged by YHWH as God in Hebrews 1:8. My point has not and cannot be refuted. If Jesus was not God, Thomas would have been rebuked for worshipping Jesus calling Him God when he seen Him after His resurrection. In the same manner the angel rebuked John for worshipping him, so also would Jesus have done. If He wasn't God, He would have been in sin to receive that honor from Thomas.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, The title "God" used for the Father, is fittingly used to define the Son. Jesus said that all judgment has been delivered to the So that all may fear the Son as they fear the Father. I fear Him as God. That is what makes me a christian. This is how u can tell christianity from false religion.
epw0003 2 years ago
Hebrew 1:8 Can be taken nominativly "GOD is THY Throne" or vocativley "Thy throne O GOD". But the next verse shows "Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows." which is fitting because this is a quote from Psa 45:6 which is originally apllied to a OT King. Hebrews 1"8 is qualified and in no way by it's second application to Jesus prove he is GOD.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, Titus 2:13 speaks of the appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ. God the Father isn't going to appear physically with Him. So the great God and our Savior in this text is Jesus Christ.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, Back to Heb. 1:8. God said, "Your throne O God is forever and ever...". It is what is says plainly. The second application does not refute it's 1st plain application. We don't argue that the Father is the God of Jesus Christ. U just don't accept the diety of Christ.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, 1 Cor. 8:6 does not contradict my point. Why did the Pharasees take up stones to stone Jesus? It was because He said , "I and My Father are One.". They understood this as I and other christians understand this. He clearly in this passage declared that He was God. They even said this when they were trying to stone Him.
epw0003 2 years ago
Paul said for HIM and others thee is the ONE GOD who is the Father,that is Pauls defintion of the ONE GOD. also read Joh 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be ONE, even as we are. and 22"Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are ONE".I accept the Paul's definition as to what and who GOD is 1 Cor.8:6
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, That "they may be one" is in reference to the church as a body. So why can u not accept the "as We are One" in Jn 17:22 to be in reference to the Godhead bodily being one as easily as u can understand the church being one? This Godhead Bodily can be seen in tact in Gen. 1:26 when God said let Us make man in Our image. God said in Heb. 1 that creation is the work of Jesus's hands. So every scripture in Gen. 1 that says "God made" is Jesus in action. Where it says "God said" is the Father.
epw0003 2 years ago
The apostles are one with Jesus and GOD in purpose.They are ONE just as Jesus and GOD are one.Both Jesus and Paul defintion of the ONLY and ONE GOD is the Father,which is the GOD of Jesus.Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.Rom 16:2 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory for ever. him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 15:6 that with one accord ye may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, I don't deny God the Father, but u are denying the diety of Christ. Why are u ignoring the fact that Jesus is referred to as God in Genesis 1 in all the verses that say "God made", when God makes this clear in Hebrews 1:10? Answer this.
epw0003 2 years ago
I never said you are denying that God is the Father.but you take GOD the Father as one "Person" in GOD.Scripturally,GOD is for PAUL his ONE GOD,a seperate being and person than Jesus.When the bible seaks of Only and ONE God it is the Being The Father a distinct entity from Jesus.Never is the word ONLY and ONE or ONE WISE GOD in reference to Jesus. GOD is a seperate being, created the world THROGH this onlybegotten,firstborn son. Hebrew 1:1-3,shows that GOD spoke in the OT but now it is his SON.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, It becomes circular reasoning when u don't tackle the reference source of ur opposition in a debate. I commented on ur scripture references. U should be fair and answer my points of reference to the connection between what God said in Heb, 1:10 and the reference to Jesus in Gen. 1:7, 16, 25, Gen. 2:3-4. Answer this in particular. Even in Isaiah 9:6 one of the titles for Jesus is "The everlasting Father", among the other titles in this verse. There is no denying the fact that He's God.
epw0003 2 years ago
"Circular Reasoning" there is nothing circular about Paul Definitional Cread 1 Cor 8:6(ASV) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him." You are ignoring what I said or you just don't understand. Jehovah,Yes the God of the Messiah was talking to his Son,THROUGH whom HE Jehovah created the earth. By Calling the SON the LITERAL Everlasting Father you are teaching Sabelianism.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, Sabelianism? I simply gave u Is. 9:6 which clearly speaks of Jesus and what His name shall be called. One of which is "The everlasting Father". Isaiah 9:6 should not be labeled Sabelianism. This is simply confirmation of the points that I made concerning my references to Hebrews 1:8-10 and Genesis chapters 1 & 2, Titus 2:13, etc. He is God. As far as ur perception circular reasoning, I acknowlegded 1 Cor. 8:6 as it does not contradict my position. No one can explain away Isaiah 9:6.
epw0003 2 years ago
If you use Is.9:6 in any way other than EVERLASTING FATHER in a lesser sence then it is indeed Modalism.Jesus became out "Father" so to speak only when his GOD resurected him Gal 1:1. Paul at 1 Cor,gave to us HIS definition of who and what GOD is,and Jesus at John 17:3 stated who GOD his GOD was and does indeed contradict your trinity.I already adressed Gen by stating that GOD was speaking to his son.Titus does NOT say the appearing "of the Great GOD" but his Glory,Jesus comes in that Glory.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, Ur saying Titus does not say the appearing "of the Great God", but on the contrary, it does. U must be coming out of the New World's Translation. It does not accurately translate what the Original Text says. U are biased to make such a statement when the Original Text literally says in Titus 2:13 "μεγάλου θεοῦ " i.e "of the great God".
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, u said u addressed Genesis by stating that GOD was speaking to his son. Jesus was not God's Son until He was born into this world. So ur reasoning is in error. U did not properly address Genesis because u assumed that Jesus was the Son of God in Genesis. He was the Word in the beginning with God; and God was the Word according to the Original Text of John 1:1. For our sakes He became the Son of God. Heb. 1:5 reveals that Jesus was to become the Son of God.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, What do u have to say about John 1:1? Everything I said is confirmed by every scripture I cited to u. Jesus is God with YHWH in Genesis when YHWH said "Let Us make man in Our image.". He is God in all the verses in Genesis 1 that says "God made". Thomas (called Didymas) was right to call Jesus his Lord and his God. Jesus in response to this called him a believer. No one has nor can refute this. If He wasn't God, He would be a sinner for receiving that honor from Thomas.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, u have not touched the point I've made concerning Thomas. According to ur position, u would consider him wrong for worshipping Jesus as his Lord and his God. Well, what do u say? Was he right or was he wrong? If he was right, then u agree that Jesus is God. But if u say that he was wrong, then u contradict Jesus for calling him a believer as a result of this thing. It's really simple. Consider this a challenge to ur position.
epw0003 2 years ago
Titus says the appearing of the GLORY of the Great GOD,not just Great God.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, Titus 2:13, "προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ"
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, Titus 2:13, προσδέχομαι = Looking for, μακάριος = that blessed, ἐλπίς = hope, καί = and, δόξα = the glorious, ἐπιφάνεια = appearing, μέγας = of the great, θεός = God, καί = and, ἡμῶν = our, σωτήρ = Savior, Ἰησοῦς = Jesus, Χριστός = Christ.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, As u can see by now, u might as well be reading a novel. The New World's Translation would be tempting if I ran out of toilet paper. U need to switch to something more reliable like the KJV, or NKJV, or something else. I see u have not met my challenge concerning Thomas. I'm still waiting for a reply to that. Was he right or was he wrong?
epw0003 2 years ago
Your "Christin" words "TOILET PAPER" should also be apllied to the following bibles because they stres the manifestinf or apearance of the "GLORY" of the Great GOD" not "the glorious appearing of the GREAT GOD"ASV,BBE,Bishops,Darby,DRB,EMTV,ESV,FLS,Geneva,GNB,GNT,GW,INR,LBLA,LITV,Murdock,PJFA,RV,WNT and YLT. I will correct of for the last time the greek read "τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ" literally "of the GLORY of the Great GOD".
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
John 20:28 use of the article HO,does NOT mean he is a "TRINITARIAN" GOD.If you researched more you would know that in Greek when a noun has a or atteched to a possesive it can have the definite article.John 20:17 Jesus said he was going to his GOD(Micah 5:4) and then vs 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name." Chist means anointed by the Being Jehovah. I accept Pauls Creed "One GOD the FATHER. ENDS
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, I've done plenty research. I don't need to go into details with u concerning the Greek, because u will not agree with me though I make myself clear in that matter. Let's just get to the creme filling, shall we? Ur explanation of Jn. 20:28 does not explain away the obvious. Everyone w/ common sense knows he said God. What else could he have said? Was Thomas right or was he wrong for falling down before Jesus in worship calling Him his Lord and his God? Why have u avoided this question?
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, I must admit, I am not a Greek scholar. I am not fluent in this language.I don't really need to have that skill in full to bring out an important point concerning Titus 2:13 I have studied the words as they appear in the bible word for word. Here is the Literal Translation: Expecting the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of the great God and Savior of us, Jesus Christ. He is the God and Savior of us; no matter the point that it does literally says "glory of the great God".
epw0003 2 years ago
I am the one who said it should be "of the GLORY" and NOT Glrious which you insisted ,and It is indeed extremely important that it says the apearance of GLORY the GREAT GOD,which makes since the Son will come in his Fathers Glory with the angels Mt 16:27.The bible is FULL of confession by the Apostles and Jesus had a GOD. I worship the Great and Almighty GOD,the same one that Jesus prayed to.The son is a diferent being than his GOD John Joh 14:1 ...believe in God, believe also in me.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
Thomas surpise was NOT Jesus indentity,but his resurrection, that Thomas doubted. Thomas could have apllied THEOS to Jesus because of Is 9:6 and it does say Mighty but NOT Almighty GOD. Also in vs 18 Jesus as a resurrecting being said he was going to his GOD, that qualifies Thomas statment that Jesus was the MESSIAH the Mighty GOD after his resurrection.Jesus was the Son of the MOST high not the most high.God raised his SON,Rom 10:9,Act 3:14,Act 5:30,and Gal 1:1. Theos is not a proper name in GR
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
(ASV) looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Bishops) Lokyng for that blessed hope and appearyng of the glorie of the great God, and our sauiour Iesus Christe,DRB) Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
Even you KJV is ambiguous for it reads" of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. .The 1611 ED. has"appearing of the great God, and our Sauiour Iesus Christ, "
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, Our debate is like Elijah the prophet when he challenged the prophets of Baal. JWs are like Baal's prophets in this case, of which u are unable to answer John 2:19. Usually when my opposition lose a debate, they never return to concede. I count their absence as a concession. Not that it's about winning a debate. My biggest hope is that u are converted. Otherwise, I wouldn't be doing this. All christians are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Cont...
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, That name is Jesus! Because after that the Holy Ghost has came upon Peter and the others, they preached and baptized people in the name of Jesus. Notice the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is one, and there is no other name under heaven whereby one can be saved other than the name of Jesus, according to Peter's gospel in Acts 4:12. Case closed...
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, if ur going to apply that theory to Thomas using the title "Mighty God" in Is. 9:6, then u must also apply the title "Everlasting Father" in the same verse. Also, how can JWs accept the title "the Lord" for Jesus with the definite article, but can only accept the title "a god" with an indefinite article for Jesus, when the Father is called "the Lord" with the definite article in Acts 4:26, and Jesus is called "the Lord" with the definite article in Acts 4:33. They are both "the Lord".
epw0003 2 years ago
You are indeed not paying attention to what I wrote,for I did deed do acknowledge that the SON is the Everlasting in a secondary sence,because it was THROUGH him that we have the possibilty to Gain everlasting life From Jehovah,seperate entity the Almight GOD .Again you are arguing without considering that Jesus is Lord because the Almighty gave his onlybetton the TITLE and Authority Acts 2:36.Lord when applied to GOD is Jehovah,the GOD of Jesus.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, Did Jesus raise Himself up according to Jn. 2:19? If u say yes, then He is God. He has to be, otherwise the scriptures would be contradictory, because it said in Acts that God raised Him from the dead. Jesus did not lie. He clearly said "destroy this temple and in 3 days "I" will raise it up." If u say He didn't, then u call Him a liar. Also, u didn't use the whole title used in Is. 9:6. It is "Everlasting Father", not "Everlasting". How come u didn't say the whole title?
epw0003 2 years ago
I forgot add add Father which is quite evident.I have already shown you ,that Jesus placed FAITH in his GOD. It was by his FAITH in God that he "RAISED" himself,that is why It is always GOD that receives credit for Jesus resurection. Also Mar 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy FAITH hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague." It was her FAITH that healed her. She placed faith in Jesus and the Scripotures show that it was Jehovah doing the Miracles THGROUGH Jesus.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, I'm not denying that the Father is the God of our Lord Jesus. He was and is faithful to the Father, but this does not change the fact that He is God. Jesus is equal with God according to Phi. 2:6. Vs. 7 says that He emptied Himself and took on the form of a slave. U can't compare Him to the woman with the issue of blood. He became God's Son when He left His glory to become a Man. He eternally existed before the beginning as a part of the Godhead bodily. Jesus Christ = God.
epw0003 2 years ago
You are NOT Denying? Yes you indeed are,The NT Apostles make it clear that Jesus had a GOD the Almighty,and it is evident that Jesus prayed and worshiped Jehovah a seperate Entity,not just a seperate Trinitarian concept of "Person". I worship the God of our lord Jesus Christ.If you worship the Son,then you are NOT worshipping the Same God that the Jesus worshipped.Phil 2:6actually proves my point, it shows that thew WORD EMPTIED himself of the divine form and became a man.Jesus was a man.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, No I am not denying that the Father is the God of our Lord. I'm just pointing out Jesus's divinity, because the Bible also makes it clear that Jesus is God. U said, "If you worship the Son,then you are NOT worshipping the Same God that the Jesus worshipped." How not? According to what u just said, everyone in the NT who worshipped Him is guilty of not worshipping the same God as Jesus did. Their examples kill ur argument. Look as how the Watch Tower butchered Jn. 1:1.
epw0003 2 years ago
The word "worship" is translated from proskuneo which also means "to show homage,obeisance or to prostrate onesself". Of course they showed homage to Jesus for he was the CHRIST(the anointed one of GOD)Again The NT writesr knew that Jehovah was the GOD of Jesus,and they along with Jesus prayed to that GOD.Your circular reasoning is continuously refuted by the Scriptures. The true axiom is that Jesus was anointed by his GOD and was resurrected by his GOD Gal 1:1.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, Jn. 1:1, "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" Ev = in, ἀρχῇ = beginning, ἦν = was, ὁ = the, λόγος = word, καὶ = and, ὁ = the, λόγος = word, ἦν = was, πρὸς = with, τὸν = The, θεόν = God, καὶ = and, θεὸς = God, ἦν = was, ὁ =the, λόγος = word.
epw0003 2 years ago
I am very familiar with the Greek,what is your point,and please make it very specific. Make sure you are indeed familiar with all the issues regarding this "most debated text".
.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
@epw0003 Sir if you would please look at the Greek scripture you pointed out. I will try to point out something without getting into too much detail. As you posted above τὸν = The, θεόν = God, καὶ = and, θεὸς = God". Look at the Greek word for god in your post. There are two different Greek words for god. θεόν = God, θεὸς = God. So this would mean that it is speaking of two different types of the word. Two different gods.
bossmanjef 2 years ago
@bossmanjef, What u pointed out is not 2 different words, but a difference between greek and english grammer. The rules are different. In english, grammer never affects the spelling of a noun, but in the greek nouns are affected. Not 2 Gods, but 1...
epw0003 2 years ago
@bossmanjeff, I can give u sort of an example. Look at how I use an english pronoun in a couple of sentences. "Unto whom does this belong?" "Who had this?" Do u see how the word "who" is transformed because of grammer? So it is with the greek; but with nouns.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, This is word for word. Nothing omitted and nothing supplied. Notice how "a god" does not appear here in the Original Text with the indefinite article and the lower cased "g". Why did the WT distort John 1:1? Nowhere in this text is the title "god" with a lower cased "g". It didn't say "and the word was a god" (like the WathchTower would try to decieve people to believe); but it simply said, "and God was the word".
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, How can u call a clean exergesis of the scriptures circular reasoning? It's the JWs who can't explain why the WatchTower has corruptedly mistranslated God's Holy Word. From just looking at how they have corrupted Jn. 1:1 shows that the New World's Translation should not be considered as a reliable resource for reproof and instruction. They should all be burned. Jesus is the word. God was "the word" (Jesus). He was made a little lower than the angels for our sakes. He chose to do this.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, ur argument is weak because u only speak of Jesus in reference to Him being a man. His essence has never changed since the beginning. Jn. 1:1 says He was God. This agrees with Heb. 1:8 when God acknowledges Him as such. Why do JW's not concentrate on the identity of Jesus as the Word of God? The answer is simple. It is because of John 1:1! U focuses on the status of Him after that He left His glory to become a Man for our sakes. This never changed who He was before He became a Man.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, Along with all the damaging refutation to u weak and beggarly positon, I must address the issue of worship. Regardless of Jesus being the Christ, if He wasn't God it would be sin to worship Him as Thomas clearly did after His resurrection. U defining the greek word for "worship" to say what it "also" means does not change the tenor of the scriptures. These people worshipped Him as one worships God. He even forgave sin as a result of receiving worship. So don't try to spin the word worship
epw0003 2 years ago
You assume,what you have not proven,I have proven that both Jesus and the Apostles worshipped the same GOD. I also showed plenty of texts without any gramatical dificulties that it was GOD ,Yes the Father AND God of Jesus that is actually given that credit for the resurrection. I already adressed Hebrews 1:8.The word proskuneo does ALSO mean to show homage,like it or not,and it does NOT change the NT theme.Jesus forgave sin because he recieved that authority from his GOD.
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
stut, In what name were u baptized?
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, Is it because u have a problem acknowleding Him as the Everlasting Father? He said He is the Almighty in Rev. 1:8. He is the Alpha and Omega in this context. The Father and the Lamb are the temple of the Holy City in Rev. 21:22. They are one temple, not temples. How can JWs understand these things, but can't understand that Jesus and the Father are one God?
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, Yes, it's the same with the title God
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, ur position also convicts Thomas of having more than one God. This would violate what God said when he said, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Jesus said to Satan "It is written, you shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve." If Jesus is not the great "I am", then why did He tell the jews to destroy the temple of His body and in 3 days "He Himself" would raise it up in John 2:19? If u say He didn't raise it, then u make Him a liar because He said He would.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut, With this being said, Who do u think rested from all His works in Genesis 2:2? The heavens and the earth are the works of Jesus's hands. Since creation is His handiwork, then it's only logical to conclude that Jesus is indeed "God" who rested on the 7th day in Gen. 2:2.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut9882iwxk, I hope to hear from u soon. This is all about edification. Jesus is drawing all men to Himself. The Watch Tower is exposed as a work of darkness.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut9882iwxk, U told a bold faced lie! Do u not see how I highlighted the word θεός in double parenthesis in the Original Text? This is the Greek term Theos and is translated "God" in the English language. U must do more research. The fact is that Jesus is God in the text of 1 Tim. 3:16. This is not a dogmatic presupposition of my alleged bias against the WT. It's good scholarship. God called Jesus God in Heb 1:8. Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus referred to as "a god". Do ur due diligence.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut9882iwxk, Also, If Jesus was not God, then He would have been guilty for not rebuking Thomas after that he had finally seen the risen Christ. He said, "my Lord and my God". Rather than rebuking him, Jesus calls him a believer because he had seen Him. The angel in Revelation rebuked John for doing what Thomas did to Jesus.
epw0003 2 years ago
stut9882iwxk, Also, Jesus said among those born of women there has not risen a greater prophet than John the Baptist. Jesus (called a Prophet by Moses) is obviously greater than John, seeing that John was not worthy to stoop down to unloose Jesus's sandles. If John is the greatest prophet born among women, then Jesus here alludes to Himself as being God just as it says in 1 Tim 3:16 in the Original Text of the Bible.
epw0003 2 years ago
Hi Epidome. Long time no hear. I just watched this video. I actually have the '85 translation and the 1955 translation. The older translation actually says in John chapter 1: "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God." They keep getting further away from the exact translation. Love ya bro.
jdrahn 3 years ago
jdrahn, I am sorry it has been a little while since I have checked this video. Is there a way that I could get the 85 and 55 translations myself. They keep trying to revise the NWT to fit their doctrine yet they serve only to further break t