Interestingly, I did not discover your video in my mail box. I decided to type in "Paschals Wager" just to see how my video was doing relative to others'. It was quite serendipitous that I found yours, especially since you just recently posted it.
Woah... I just came in to respond, and all the comment interface has changed... Weird. Maintenance might have something to do with why you didn't get any comment in your inbox.
Anyway, I didn't even intend this video to be constructive criticism, exactly - just that your video got me thinking, so I figured I'd respond. I'm a bit disappointed you'd already thought of it, to tell the truth. ^_^
I do like this video and always appreciate constructive criticism. I did actually address the issue which you've raised, though not in my video--just a slight dig in my description box, which is short. I addressed Paschal's argument in my video as I felt it was presented. I understood that he was saying that he knows many cannot believe, but that we can be conditioned through persistant participation in religious rituals.I'm not sure if I disagree with him on this. I appreciate your speaking up!
If you're the same guy whose comments I remember running across some months ago, I'm sure I'd be prepared to ti give you five -if only I could hear a damn word you're saying.
I can make out just enough to discern a New Zealand accent.
Meh - I'm not too concerned about stars, tell you the truth. ^_^
Sorry about the sound quality though. Truth be told, I never really thought anyone would be all that interested in the kinds of thing I have to say, so whenever I've felt the urge to whip up a YouTube video I just fire off the built-in web camera on my work laptop. The resolution and the mic aren't great.
But since someone's actually gone and complained, I'll be sure to set up the digital camera next time.
I'll probably get around to re-recording this idea later...
The more I think about it, the more I realize that I've never actually seen this particular objection to the Wager before, so I might actually manage to be a little bit original for a change. Which would be nice. ^_^
You shouldn't use a question where the answer is obvious, like the sky blue. Instead use a question like what dessert do you want for dinner. You can only have one, but your Mom lets you choose a favorite. Is it pecan pie w/ ice cream or chocolate fudge? You love both & have trouble deciding. That's when a decision making tool like the Wager is helpful. What are the downsides of each? What are the benefits? Maybe you are getting a bit lactose intolerant, that sways you away from ice cream.
First I am in total agreement that it is wrong to use the Wager on somone who has already decided their belief, like an atheist or a Christian. It is only a decision tool for someone making their decision between their final two choices. That is why it is usually misused on YT.
"But I fail to see how we can choose our beliefs themselves"
Maybe we are hung up on semantics. By choosing a belief, I just mean making a decision. If you come up on a babbling brook, & there is a large tree trunk fallen across it, you decide whether you can safely cross on it. You make a choice, go or not go. To me that can be called a decision or a choice. You believe you can safely cross or not, & thus you have made your choice or decision. Stay away from "choice" & use "decide" instead.
All the Wager recognizes is what we do in real life, we calculate the consequences into any decision. In deciding whether you believe it is safe to cross on the tree trunk, the consequences matter. If it is a fall into water, maybe a bruise or sprain, you may try it. If it is instead a 100ft chasm, or daggers are poking up underneath the tree trunk, you may decide not to go. The tree trunk is the same, your skill level the same, everything is the same, but the consequences of a wrong decision.
I'm sorry Battleship, but I think there's some misunderstanding between us. Consider:
"By choosing a belief, I just mean making a decision."
Again: I don't see how a sincere belief about the state of reality is in any way a *decision*. Upon perceiving the reality of a tree fallen across a river, I may well decide on the best way to cross that river.
But I can't just decide to believe that the river isn't there.
... real life - but for me, I cannot think of how anyone can just *decide* what to sincerely believe about reality.
I can see that people can *decide* to deceive themselves and others about what they believe - but I can't see how a sincere belief about the state of reality is the result of choice, decision, or some other manifestation of free will.
My beliefs about reality inform my decision making processes: How wide is the trunk, how curved, does it look rotten, how far is the fall if I lose balance, what will I be falling onto? Based on these beliefs, I will decide my course of action.
Conversely, my decision making processes do *not* inform my beliefs about reality. I can't just 'decide' that there is water under the tree if my eyes are telling me I'm looking into a thousand-foot drop onto unforgiving granite.
"can't just 'decide' that there is water under the tree if my eyes are telling me I'm looking into a thousand-foot drop."
Of course you can't, because you have a definite opinion about what the answer is. The Wager is for someone who doesn't have that kind of definite opinion. Do you acknowledge there are many of us who really believe God is real? Not really believe he isn't, then deceive ourselves? At some point we decided that. It is our reality. You decided differently.
"I can't just decide to believe that the river isn't there"
Yes, but those are situations where you already know or have a strong belief about what the true facts are. You know the river is there or there is a 1,000 foot drop if you see it. The Wager is worthless for someone who already knows the answer or already has a strong belief about it. The Wager is only useful for those truly on the fence deciding between 2 choices. Someone who sees some merit in both & is deciding between them.
First off the bat - sorry I didn't see your comments sooner. YouTube decided they were spam, I've rectified that now.
And in terms of the Wager's audience, I'll let Pascal speak for himself:
I confess it, I admit it. But, still, is there no means of seeing the faces of the cards?" Yes, Scripture and the rest, etc. "Yes, but I have my hands tied and my mouth closed; I am forced to wager, and am not free. I am not released, and am so made that I cannot believe. What, then, would you have me do?
The Wager is explicitly addressed to those who are so made that they cannot believe.
I'll link to a translation of Pascal's work in the description when I've finished responding to back that up. It's under section 233.
That said, I do acknowledge there are Christians who sincerely believe that God does exist. I disagree with them of course - but I do acknowledge their existence.
If a given Christian claims to believe in God, but they have *chosen* to believe... Is their belief really sincere? Or are they just deceiving themselves, and those around them, with a pretense of sincere belief?
Essentially, if someone does as you suggest, and uses the wager to decide, and come down on the side of belief... I don't see how this is a sincere belief. It strikes me as manufactured. Synthetic. False. A lie, in fact.
As I see it, the Wager cannot possibly persuade anyone towards sincere belief. It can only persuade someone towards self-deception regarding the true state of their beliefs.
If the reader is a belier that finds the Wager persuasive... Then you may want to consider your own beliefs more closely. Do you BELIEVE - or do you 'believe'. Is your belief sincere, or the manufactured result of your choice?
I don't want an answer myself - it's just something I consider to be worth thinking about.
"claims to believe in God, but they have *chosen* to believe ... belief really sincere?"
Everyone who believes has decided (chosen) to believe. Everyone who is atheist has decided (chosen) not to believe. Belief is a decision. You decide to believe or you don't. Everyone who hasn't decided (chosen) either just hasn't considered the question, or is trying but hasn't made up their mind what they believe. You are using "believe" in a weird way, every belief is a result of a decision or choice.
You can easily see this when you talk about a belief that is less controversial. You come to the stream and tree trunk. You decide whether you believe you can make it across or not. Say you decide you can. That's your belief, you think you can make it across. Your belief is obviously the result of your decision after examining the information available to you. Guess what, that's the same with every belief. including what you believe about the existence or non-existence of God.
I'm sorry, Battleship. I feel I have engaged with your points and met you fairly.
I've tried to back up my objections with logic and examples - I've even stuck to your own analogies in an attempt to keep communication even and open.
But you seem unable or unwilling to engage with any of the points I am making beyond simple dismissal and a restatement of the exact same points you made the time before.
I still consider that a sincere belief about the state of reality isn't a choice, and I feel I have provided sound reasoning to that effect.
I have found your argument unpersuasive, and have given reasons and counter-examples as to why that is the case.
As your only response to my rebuttals has been dismissal as opposed to engagement, I've come to the conclusion that there's little more we have to offer one another in this discussion.
I invite you to take the last word, if you'll have it.
"I still consider that a sincere belief about the state of reality isn't a choice"
All the examples you use about "state of reality" is where you already know the answer, where you have a definite opinion. You see the thousand-foot drop below, so you cannot make yourself believe it is not there. I can't get you to focus on a situation where you don't know what answer is correct, where you don't know what is below you. The Wager is useful then, not to change an already formed opinion of reality.
Interestingly, I did not discover your video in my mail box. I decided to type in "Paschals Wager" just to see how my video was doing relative to others'. It was quite serendipitous that I found yours, especially since you just recently posted it.
freetaught 1 year ago
@freetaught
Woah... I just came in to respond, and all the comment interface has changed... Weird. Maintenance might have something to do with why you didn't get any comment in your inbox.
Anyway, I didn't even intend this video to be constructive criticism, exactly - just that your video got me thinking, so I figured I'd respond. I'm a bit disappointed you'd already thought of it, to tell the truth. ^_^
UbiquitousChe 1 year ago
I do like this video and always appreciate constructive criticism. I did actually address the issue which you've raised, though not in my video--just a slight dig in my description box, which is short. I addressed Paschal's argument in my video as I felt it was presented. I understood that he was saying that he knows many cannot believe, but that we can be conditioned through persistant participation in religious rituals.I'm not sure if I disagree with him on this. I appreciate your speaking up!
freetaught 1 year ago
Three stars?
If you're the same guy whose comments I remember running across some months ago, I'm sure I'd be prepared to ti give you five -if only I could hear a damn word you're saying.
I can make out just enough to discern a New Zealand accent.
MisappliedRhetoric 2 years ago
Meh - I'm not too concerned about stars, tell you the truth. ^_^
Sorry about the sound quality though. Truth be told, I never really thought anyone would be all that interested in the kinds of thing I have to say, so whenever I've felt the urge to whip up a YouTube video I just fire off the built-in web camera on my work laptop. The resolution and the mic aren't great.
But since someone's actually gone and complained, I'll be sure to set up the digital camera next time.
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
I'll probably get around to re-recording this idea later...
The more I think about it, the more I realize that I've never actually seen this particular objection to the Wager before, so I might actually manage to be a little bit original for a change. Which would be nice. ^_^
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
There we go - a better response is up.
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
You shouldn't use a question where the answer is obvious, like the sky blue. Instead use a question like what dessert do you want for dinner. You can only have one, but your Mom lets you choose a favorite. Is it pecan pie w/ ice cream or chocolate fudge? You love both & have trouble deciding. That's when a decision making tool like the Wager is helpful. What are the downsides of each? What are the benefits? Maybe you are getting a bit lactose intolerant, that sways you away from ice cream.
BattleshipTx 2 years ago
Hmm... Interesting point, but I respectfully disagree.
You're describing choice - and I grant in the video that the Wager is all about choice.
Genuine belief about the state of reality isn't a choice.
We can choose to deceive people about the true nature of our beliefs. We can even choose *self* deception regarding the true nature of our beliefs.
But I fail to see how we can choose our beliefs themselves. I just don't see how that could ever be possible, although I remain open to correction.
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
First I am in total agreement that it is wrong to use the Wager on somone who has already decided their belief, like an atheist or a Christian. It is only a decision tool for someone making their decision between their final two choices. That is why it is usually misused on YT.
BattleshipTx 2 years ago
"But I fail to see how we can choose our beliefs themselves"
Maybe we are hung up on semantics. By choosing a belief, I just mean making a decision. If you come up on a babbling brook, & there is a large tree trunk fallen across it, you decide whether you can safely cross on it. You make a choice, go or not go. To me that can be called a decision or a choice. You believe you can safely cross or not, & thus you have made your choice or decision. Stay away from "choice" & use "decide" instead.
BattleshipTx 2 years ago
All the Wager recognizes is what we do in real life, we calculate the consequences into any decision. In deciding whether you believe it is safe to cross on the tree trunk, the consequences matter. If it is a fall into water, maybe a bruise or sprain, you may try it. If it is instead a 100ft chasm, or daggers are poking up underneath the tree trunk, you may decide not to go. The tree trunk is the same, your skill level the same, everything is the same, but the consequences of a wrong decision.
BattleshipTx 2 years ago
I'm sorry Battleship, but I think there's some misunderstanding between us. Consider:
"By choosing a belief, I just mean making a decision."
Again: I don't see how a sincere belief about the state of reality is in any way a *decision*. Upon perceiving the reality of a tree fallen across a river, I may well decide on the best way to cross that river.
But I can't just decide to believe that the river isn't there.
I'm not sure about your experiences...
1/2
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
... real life - but for me, I cannot think of how anyone can just *decide* what to sincerely believe about reality.
I can see that people can *decide* to deceive themselves and others about what they believe - but I can't see how a sincere belief about the state of reality is the result of choice, decision, or some other manifestation of free will.
2/3
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
To put it another way:
My beliefs about reality inform my decision making processes: How wide is the trunk, how curved, does it look rotten, how far is the fall if I lose balance, what will I be falling onto? Based on these beliefs, I will decide my course of action.
Conversely, my decision making processes do *not* inform my beliefs about reality. I can't just 'decide' that there is water under the tree if my eyes are telling me I'm looking into a thousand-foot drop onto unforgiving granite.
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
"can't just 'decide' that there is water under the tree if my eyes are telling me I'm looking into a thousand-foot drop."
Of course you can't, because you have a definite opinion about what the answer is. The Wager is for someone who doesn't have that kind of definite opinion. Do you acknowledge there are many of us who really believe God is real? Not really believe he isn't, then deceive ourselves? At some point we decided that. It is our reality. You decided differently.
BattleshipTx 2 years ago
"I can't just decide to believe that the river isn't there"
Yes, but those are situations where you already know or have a strong belief about what the true facts are. You know the river is there or there is a 1,000 foot drop if you see it. The Wager is worthless for someone who already knows the answer or already has a strong belief about it. The Wager is only useful for those truly on the fence deciding between 2 choices. Someone who sees some merit in both & is deciding between them.
BattleshipTx 2 years ago
First off the bat - sorry I didn't see your comments sooner. YouTube decided they were spam, I've rectified that now.
And in terms of the Wager's audience, I'll let Pascal speak for himself:
I confess it, I admit it. But, still, is there no means of seeing the faces of the cards?" Yes, Scripture and the rest, etc. "Yes, but I have my hands tied and my mouth closed; I am forced to wager, and am not free. I am not released, and am so made that I cannot believe. What, then, would you have me do?
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
The Wager is explicitly addressed to those who are so made that they cannot believe.
I'll link to a translation of Pascal's work in the description when I've finished responding to back that up. It's under section 233.
That said, I do acknowledge there are Christians who sincerely believe that God does exist. I disagree with them of course - but I do acknowledge their existence.
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
However, that's nothing to do with my point.
If a given Christian claims to believe in God, but they have *chosen* to believe... Is their belief really sincere? Or are they just deceiving themselves, and those around them, with a pretense of sincere belief?
Essentially, if someone does as you suggest, and uses the wager to decide, and come down on the side of belief... I don't see how this is a sincere belief. It strikes me as manufactured. Synthetic. False. A lie, in fact.
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
As I see it, the Wager cannot possibly persuade anyone towards sincere belief. It can only persuade someone towards self-deception regarding the true state of their beliefs.
If the reader is a belier that finds the Wager persuasive... Then you may want to consider your own beliefs more closely. Do you BELIEVE - or do you 'believe'. Is your belief sincere, or the manufactured result of your choice?
I don't want an answer myself - it's just something I consider to be worth thinking about.
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
"claims to believe in God, but they have *chosen* to believe ... belief really sincere?"
Everyone who believes has decided (chosen) to believe. Everyone who is atheist has decided (chosen) not to believe. Belief is a decision. You decide to believe or you don't. Everyone who hasn't decided (chosen) either just hasn't considered the question, or is trying but hasn't made up their mind what they believe. You are using "believe" in a weird way, every belief is a result of a decision or choice.
BattleshipTx 2 years ago
You can easily see this when you talk about a belief that is less controversial. You come to the stream and tree trunk. You decide whether you believe you can make it across or not. Say you decide you can. That's your belief, you think you can make it across. Your belief is obviously the result of your decision after examining the information available to you. Guess what, that's the same with every belief. including what you believe about the existence or non-existence of God.
BattleshipTx 2 years ago
I'm sorry, Battleship. I feel I have engaged with your points and met you fairly.
I've tried to back up my objections with logic and examples - I've even stuck to your own analogies in an attempt to keep communication even and open.
But you seem unable or unwilling to engage with any of the points I am making beyond simple dismissal and a restatement of the exact same points you made the time before.
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
I still consider that a sincere belief about the state of reality isn't a choice, and I feel I have provided sound reasoning to that effect.
I have found your argument unpersuasive, and have given reasons and counter-examples as to why that is the case.
As your only response to my rebuttals has been dismissal as opposed to engagement, I've come to the conclusion that there's little more we have to offer one another in this discussion.
I invite you to take the last word, if you'll have it.
UbiquitousChe 2 years ago
"I still consider that a sincere belief about the state of reality isn't a choice"
All the examples you use about "state of reality" is where you already know the answer, where you have a definite opinion. You see the thousand-foot drop below, so you cannot make yourself believe it is not there. I can't get you to focus on a situation where you don't know what answer is correct, where you don't know what is below you. The Wager is useful then, not to change an already formed opinion of reality.
BattleshipTx 1 year ago