Jct: People use to think that inflation and deflation were opposites. But now you've convinced us that interest causes both. Yes, if would be fun to hear you try to explain what you think is so easy. If if were that easy, you wouldn't be conned by Shift B inflation you'd never heard of before I discovered it.
@chelonia1663 you definately learned a thing or two from Mike Montagne
Jct: Mike Montagne! The guy who did a 14-segment diatribe about my beating him up in an interview on banking systems engineering when he missed how Shift B inflation works. Har har har. What a dolt, publishing proof he couldn't keep up. I wish to had time to laugh at it again.Bet you can't explain Shift B inflation like I do in 500 characters or less.
Jct: Yes, we'll borrow enough to start business and to pay the banker his service charge, he spends it so we can earn it to pay it back. Search "bankmath" for an example at the end of the difference between living on Interest Island and on Service Charge Island.
Only removing the interest wouldn't solve the problem. If there would be a fixed amount of money in circulation, and someone decided to withhold some money (saving), sooner or later there would be a need to print new money, which would cause inflation and decrease the value of the currency. Before you know it, we would be back with the haves and the have-nots. Personally, I believe the main problems with money to be that a) it's not timerestricted (doesn't expire) and b) it's non-personal
@ladulaser :"If there would be a fixed amount of money in circulation,"
Jct: Starting with a wrong premise usually leads to a wrong conclusion. So if you think casinos work with a fixed number of chips, I'm not going to read the rest.
I believe the theory of debt based money is entirely sound, however it's not as black and white as you explain it. You cannot account for every variable linked to such a system. it's the manipulation of the debt based money and the often resultant exploitation of people which is the problem. As such, I believe the debt based money system is massively abused. So.. you're right! but you miss a few grandiose points in regard to exploitation.
Brother John! You miss the entire point. The chips aren't in your cage! They never were and never will be. You don't have something tangible, so you write an IOU, which is exchanged around. How does the bank lose when it puts up nothing? And how does foreclosing on my crop "make good" on anything? If people served me, they were paid, not with anything tangible, but the belief in the value of your intangible IOU certificate or token or Federal Reserve Note.
John, banks have been writing contracts without consideration since this system was implemented. How can a private business create money to collateralize a loan and reserve a right to foreclose if the loan is not repaid, interest or no? This is immoral. Interest can and should be charged for those who want things they cannot afford to buy in whole, but the bank MUST put up an asset and incur risk of loss.
@earlofedgewood If you pledged your crop to get chips from my cage, and then spend the chips, of course, I have a right to foreclose to make good on the chips in the hands of the people who served you for them. So it is not immoral to take possession of the collateral you promised for the credits you got.
But interest should not be charged because there were no chips printed to pay it. Can't pay 11 when you only got 10 without getting someone else's.
Student loans are also egregiously unsecured debt, and the loan guarantees made by government for these, houses, debentures of all sorts, really, nearly triple the debt we are on the hook for. So, according to David Walker, former head of the GAO in the U.S., was on the hook for $54 trillion as of August 2008. Have you read Zarlenga's book and the text of the American Monetary Reform Act? His ideas are to end bank-created money and fractional-reserve lending.
@earlofedgewood "Zarlenga's ideas are to end bank-created money and fractional-reserve lending."
There's nothing wrong with bank-created chips, some bank has to do it.
There's nothing particularly wrong with fractional reserve banking other than impedance of flow but not imbalance malfunction. No, the only problem with the 1/(s-i) banking system is not that banks create it, nor that it's a fraction of savings, but that it has "i".
My friend, John! I have watched many of your videos and want to tell you thanks for taking the time to educate people about this insoluble problem in the current state of the world. I would like to answer one of the questions you ask very emphatically, "Can you name someone who can go to a bank and get a loan without pledging collateral?" And "all new money is backed by the collateral they pledge?" What do you say about credit cards? This is nearly $1 trillion in circulation in the US alone.
Banks over-collaterlize loans for some so they can make loans to personal friends with no colletaral. Credit cards may be creation without collateral other than human time.
Jct: History is replete with examples of humankind sitting down unemployed for lack of yellow rocks. As for the debt-based part, I'm only saying that with no interest, my cashier exchanges chips whether you buy in with cash (asset) or with marker IOU (debt). My point is that the backing, whether asset or debt, is irrelevant. The problem is the demand for more than they printed.
Ellen Brown differentiates between systems that use debt to the community of traders as currency versus debt to banks as currency. She and Tom Graco as well use the term credit based system for the former and debt based system for the latter. Credit is not the same thing as debt. Money is credit. Usury is the highjacking of credit to put debt-money into play. There's a big difference between a government IOU (Lincoln greenback) and a government IOthebank (US Dollar). Greenback good,IOthebank bad
Jct: As long as there's no usury, interest on money, I don't care whether the chip was created by a bank or my community and I don'[ care whether it's based on a debt or an asset.
There's something I dont quite understand yet, without interest and without care for who creates credit and why(unlike the argentinian provinces which issued bonds to pay public services), would there not be a larger potential for it being used(abused) to finance corporate acquisitions/raids/etc (which appears to foster cartels), danger of corruption, and speculative transactions or opportunist transactions, thus giving the issuer of money(if private bank) a certain advantage over others.
Jct: Just like ordinary interest-bearing money can be abused? As to whether there would be greater abuse, when everyone can see your account and your transactions, how are you going to explain them? Besides, if everyone as access to interest-free credits, who do you think you are going to loanshark them to?
Jct: 1 Hour = $10 Greendollar chips in the US, 12 Greendollar chips in Canada, #6 Greenpound chips in UK, 60 Greenfranc chips in France, etc.
But because we spend Hours equally doesn't mean we earn Hours equally. At the previous Timebank convention in King City Ontario, I earned 4 Hours per hour busking with my accordion. I'm pretty good. Do you think many people could score 4 Hours per hour? Probably few.
So timebanking gives everyone an equal opportunity, not an equal score.
I agree! The Gold standard is as empty as the paper. A man or woman's WORD is what is important...Is 1 hour worth 10 CHIPS? 1 hour makes me equal with you, PERIOD...Our debt is settled. It's all madness.
Isn't this still IMAGINARY? Promises have been proven hollow, correct? I'm an American with a president who has back-flipped on nigh EVERYthing! AS A CATHOLIC-RAISED MAN, I SAY USURY IS UNETHICAL. How do i prove it?
Jesus proves it in Thomas 95 for Christians. Mohammed proves the same thing for Muslims. Nehemiah 5:10 proves it for jews. And Turmel's Miracle Equation proves Shift B inflation for scientists and engineers. See my Shift B video so you can also bet that usury creating death-gamble mort-gage is not only evil, it's stupid too.
Section 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts;
No " state " is doing so !!! Learn to read the law Massvocals. The international banks are using their "right to contract " protected by this statute to ensnare all of us in their game. It may be corrupt but it is not unconstitutional.
Turmel is one of the few monetary reformers who understands the simplicity of the problem. Most monetary reformers go through such a long learning / unlearning process that they feel the need to heap all their new found learning on everyone. This is particularly true of those who write books on the topic. They feel they have to put lots of "stuff " into the book ( trying to look smart)so they get carried away trying to appear knowledgeable instead of focusing on the correct solution.
Jct: People use to think that inflation and deflation were opposites. But now you've convinced us that interest causes both. Yes, if would be fun to hear you try to explain what you think is so easy. If if were that easy, you wouldn't be conned by Shift B inflation you'd never heard of before I discovered it.
kingofthepaupers 4 months ago
@chelonia1663 you definately learned a thing or two from Mike Montagne
Jct: Mike Montagne! The guy who did a 14-segment diatribe about my beating him up in an interview on banking systems engineering when he missed how Shift B inflation works. Har har har. What a dolt, publishing proof he couldn't keep up. I wish to had time to laugh at it again.Bet you can't explain Shift B inflation like I do in 500 characters or less.
kingofthepaupers 4 months ago
If you remove interest from the system, like Aristotele would have it, wouldn't the banks in our situation stop operating?
Will we just pay them for their services?
How will they sustain themselves?
whahas 8 months ago
@whahas Will we just pay them for their services?
Jct: Yes, we'll borrow enough to start business and to pay the banker his service charge, he spends it so we can earn it to pay it back. Search "bankmath" for an example at the end of the difference between living on Interest Island and on Service Charge Island.
kingofthepaupers 8 months ago
Jct: Go ahead and explain to me how the problem you forsee would affect the chips in our poker game.
kingofthepaupers 1 year ago
Only removing the interest wouldn't solve the problem. If there would be a fixed amount of money in circulation, and someone decided to withhold some money (saving), sooner or later there would be a need to print new money, which would cause inflation and decrease the value of the currency. Before you know it, we would be back with the haves and the have-nots. Personally, I believe the main problems with money to be that a) it's not timerestricted (doesn't expire) and b) it's non-personal
ladulaser 1 year ago
@ladulaser :"If there would be a fixed amount of money in circulation,"
Jct: Starting with a wrong premise usually leads to a wrong conclusion. So if you think casinos work with a fixed number of chips, I'm not going to read the rest.
kingofthepaupers 1 year ago
I believe the theory of debt based money is entirely sound, however it's not as black and white as you explain it. You cannot account for every variable linked to such a system. it's the manipulation of the debt based money and the often resultant exploitation of people which is the problem. As such, I believe the debt based money system is massively abused. So.. you're right! but you miss a few grandiose points in regard to exploitation.
Iaganatzi 1 year ago
Brother John! You miss the entire point. The chips aren't in your cage! They never were and never will be. You don't have something tangible, so you write an IOU, which is exchanged around. How does the bank lose when it puts up nothing? And how does foreclosing on my crop "make good" on anything? If people served me, they were paid, not with anything tangible, but the belief in the value of your intangible IOU certificate or token or Federal Reserve Note.
earlofedgewood 1 year ago
John, banks have been writing contracts without consideration since this system was implemented. How can a private business create money to collateralize a loan and reserve a right to foreclose if the loan is not repaid, interest or no? This is immoral. Interest can and should be charged for those who want things they cannot afford to buy in whole, but the bank MUST put up an asset and incur risk of loss.
earlofedgewood 1 year ago
@earlofedgewood If you pledged your crop to get chips from my cage, and then spend the chips, of course, I have a right to foreclose to make good on the chips in the hands of the people who served you for them. So it is not immoral to take possession of the collateral you promised for the credits you got.
But interest should not be charged because there were no chips printed to pay it. Can't pay 11 when you only got 10 without getting someone else's.
kingofthepaupers 1 year ago
Student loans are also egregiously unsecured debt, and the loan guarantees made by government for these, houses, debentures of all sorts, really, nearly triple the debt we are on the hook for. So, according to David Walker, former head of the GAO in the U.S., was on the hook for $54 trillion as of August 2008. Have you read Zarlenga's book and the text of the American Monetary Reform Act? His ideas are to end bank-created money and fractional-reserve lending.
earlofedgewood 1 year ago
@earlofedgewood "Zarlenga's ideas are to end bank-created money and fractional-reserve lending."
There's nothing wrong with bank-created chips, some bank has to do it.
There's nothing particularly wrong with fractional reserve banking other than impedance of flow but not imbalance malfunction. No, the only problem with the 1/(s-i) banking system is not that banks create it, nor that it's a fraction of savings, but that it has "i".
kingofthepaupers 1 year ago
My friend, John! I have watched many of your videos and want to tell you thanks for taking the time to educate people about this insoluble problem in the current state of the world. I would like to answer one of the questions you ask very emphatically, "Can you name someone who can go to a bank and get a loan without pledging collateral?" And "all new money is backed by the collateral they pledge?" What do you say about credit cards? This is nearly $1 trillion in circulation in the US alone.
earlofedgewood 1 year ago
@earlofedgewood
Banks over-collaterlize loans for some so they can make loans to personal friends with no colletaral. Credit cards may be creation without collateral other than human time.
kingofthepaupers 1 year ago
Jct: History is replete with examples of humankind sitting down unemployed for lack of yellow rocks. As for the debt-based part, I'm only saying that with no interest, my cashier exchanges chips whether you buy in with cash (asset) or with marker IOU (debt). My point is that the backing, whether asset or debt, is irrelevant. The problem is the demand for more than they printed.
kingofthepaupers 1 year ago
Ellen Brown differentiates between systems that use debt to the community of traders as currency versus debt to banks as currency. She and Tom Graco as well use the term credit based system for the former and debt based system for the latter. Credit is not the same thing as debt. Money is credit. Usury is the highjacking of credit to put debt-money into play. There's a big difference between a government IOU (Lincoln greenback) and a government IOthebank (US Dollar). Greenback good,IOthebank bad
cryosun 2 years ago
Jct: As long as there's no usury, interest on money, I don't care whether the chip was created by a bank or my community and I don'[ care whether it's based on a debt or an asset.
kingofthepaupers 2 years ago
There's something I dont quite understand yet, without interest and without care for who creates credit and why(unlike the argentinian provinces which issued bonds to pay public services), would there not be a larger potential for it being used(abused) to finance corporate acquisitions/raids/etc (which appears to foster cartels), danger of corruption, and speculative transactions or opportunist transactions, thus giving the issuer of money(if private bank) a certain advantage over others.
Rickdeckard2020 1 year ago
Jct: Just like ordinary interest-bearing money can be abused? As to whether there would be greater abuse, when everyone can see your account and your transactions, how are you going to explain them? Besides, if everyone as access to interest-free credits, who do you think you are going to loanshark them to?
kingofthepaupers 1 year ago
Jct: 1 Hour = $10 Greendollar chips in the US, 12 Greendollar chips in Canada, #6 Greenpound chips in UK, 60 Greenfranc chips in France, etc.
But because we spend Hours equally doesn't mean we earn Hours equally. At the previous Timebank convention in King City Ontario, I earned 4 Hours per hour busking with my accordion. I'm pretty good. Do you think many people could score 4 Hours per hour? Probably few.
So timebanking gives everyone an equal opportunity, not an equal score.
kingofthepaupers 2 years ago
I agree! The Gold standard is as empty as the paper. A man or woman's WORD is what is important...Is 1 hour worth 10 CHIPS? 1 hour makes me equal with you, PERIOD...Our debt is settled. It's all madness.
jeremiahsineiii 2 years ago
Help us understand the time standard better - maybe I need more time for it to register.
I'm gong to check out the rest of your videos, this is the first one I stumbled upon.
thedesignstudent 3 years ago
Jct: The Hours of service you receive are the Hours you promise to return in Hour notes or in hours of time.
kingofthepaupers 3 years ago
Isn't this still IMAGINARY? Promises have been proven hollow, correct? I'm an American with a president who has back-flipped on nigh EVERYthing! AS A CATHOLIC-RAISED MAN, I SAY USURY IS UNETHICAL. How do i prove it?
jeremiahsineiii 2 years ago
Jesus proves it in Thomas 95 for Christians. Mohammed proves the same thing for Muslims. Nehemiah 5:10 proves it for jews. And Turmel's Miracle Equation proves Shift B inflation for scientists and engineers. See my Shift B video so you can also bet that usury creating death-gamble mort-gage is not only evil, it's stupid too.
kingofthepaupers 2 years ago
Section 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts;
No " state " is doing so !!! Learn to read the law Massvocals. The international banks are using their "right to contract " protected by this statute to ensnare all of us in their game. It may be corrupt but it is not unconstitutional.
Hard to accept but factually correct.
hardwaterwalleye 3 years ago
Jct: All I'm saying is that it isn't the medium that's the problem, it's the growth of debt on the medium that's the problem.
kingofthepaupers 3 years ago
You're a moron.
tomozope 3 years ago
Jct: One of us certainly is.
kingofthepaupers 3 years ago
Turmel is one of the few monetary reformers who understands the simplicity of the problem. Most monetary reformers go through such a long learning / unlearning process that they feel the need to heap all their new found learning on everyone. This is particularly true of those who write books on the topic. They feel they have to put lots of "stuff " into the book ( trying to look smart)so they get carried away trying to appear knowledgeable instead of focusing on the correct solution.
hardwaterwalleye 3 years ago