The Atheist and Theist Find Meaning and Purpose in the Same THING....

[chadinterrupted]

Of course I'm a "weirdo" on the internet who doesn't help people or try to make the world a better place. That is where you are very very wrong. Everything I do is to benefit myself, and as a way to benefit myself I like to help other people because I know it sets a good example and promotes a comfortable environment. I know if I do something nice for someone else they may or may not do the same, but at least I'm creating a positive feeling. Same thing you do even though you don't realize it.

[chadinterrupted]

Just because your body breaks down as you get older doesn't mean there's a "God". Doesn't mean there isn't one either, but it doesn't mean there's a flying spaghetti monster or a 82fjnaskdfjcnnc. The metaphysical possibilities are infinite. Human beings all seek the same 2 things, survival and then pleasure. God is an excuse and attempt to alleviate the depressed person's burdens as a way to make themselves feel better. Depression is a reflection of ones environment.

[exchol113]

I applaud you for your expression. Just a word of wisdom. Be careful, there are some really dangerous radicals out there. And no "Patriots" I am not talking about Muslims...

[violentlygraceful]

The expected spiritual benefits of your religious beliefs are as hedonistic and self-centered as the reasons for living AgentOfDoubt provided.

[aveyowyns]

@violentlygraceful

The difference is that I, unlike AOD, do not make pleasure my greatest good. I make God my greatest good which RESULTS in infinite joy - so, my life gains no more or less worth in the instances when I suffer, whether I fail or whether I am emotionally/mentally immobile.

Realize, that the 'topic' of this video is not 'what's in it for me?' ...it is 'Where do we find value.' The atheist finds their value in hedonism, where as I find my value in God, which results in pleasures.

[MyContext]

@aveyowyns I grant that some do, however, that is not true for all. I do find it odd that many Christians seem to want to claim how atheists experience life and are generally off the mark by wide margins. Atheists are NOT a monolithic block - the dismissal of god claims as presented thus far is about the only commonality that can reasonably be claimed.

[aveyowyns]

@MyContext

If there is no God, and nothing that transcends humanity, nor the universe, then all the atheist is left with is the material. When you give to charity, it is not out of the desire to meet some transcendent standard of what it means to be a good person - you do it to relieve yourself of guilt, to feel good, or because you were conditioned to act generously. There is no transcendent reason. If there is no God, then YOU are the measure of all things, therefore you do for yourself!

[MyContext]

@aveyowyns Does a good act preclude it from being "good" if the intent were actually "good" and the results were actually "good"? Isn't the judgement call of whether the act was good/evil a judgement that EVERY individual does regardless of whether there is a god to the backdrop of their action or not. Why would a "transcendent reason" matter? Would it change the nature of what is being done? If so how?

[aveyowyns]

@MyContext

"Why does a transcendent reason matter."

...because you can't refer to objective good and evils if the concepts themselves are not transcendent.

Either way, that is irrelevant. I don't care if you agree with my idea of what is a good act and what is not a good act, the fact is, when you reject God, you adopt some other positive philosophical attitude towards morality, purpose, etc to fill the gap - and it is most often hedonistic in nature.

[MyContext]

@aveyowyns Given the humanistic qualities ascribed, god as depicted is a subjective being just like humans (however, by claim it has all-knowledge, all-power,etc.). So, given the claims, god is a subject which means that the claimed transcendent source is subjective in spite of being a "transcendental source".

[aveyowyns]

@MyContext

This comment is what I mean by pretentious/wordy.

God is not subjective or depicted to be subjective.

[MyContext]

@aveyowyns Do you consider emotions to be subjective? If so, then the claim that god has emotions presents that fact that god is depicted to have subjective experiences. This is what I mean when I say "subjective", by extension this would apply to anything else that is normally considered subjective.

[MyContext]

@aveyowyns I don't see the objective good that you claim. The book of Deuteronomy & Numbers are filled with things that I find to be abhorrent. So, when people make claims of an objective good - I want to know what do they mean by that statement.

[aveyowyns]

@MyContext

You might want to learn to read in context and respond in topic. I said atheists cannot refer to objective goods and evils (as in, I do this because it's the good/right thing to do), if the source of good and evil is not transcendent. So they can only do good for themselves.

I did not make any claim about Christianity and it's beliefs about goodness, so your comment is entirely irrelevant. What's more, 'objective good' is not defined by; what 'humanity likes.'

[MyContext]

@aveyowyns It seems that all most people indulge in hedonistic acts which of course includes Christians. It also seems that believers have a higher rate of criminal activity than non-believers. However, the actions of people in general are a separate matter from whether the claims of  transcend-ency has any bearing on whether a thing is good or evil. I am trying to understand the claim. Since, morality appears to be a biological predisposition with social modifiers.

[aveyowyns]

@MyContext

I never denied that all people indulge in hedonistic acts, only that atheists indulge PURELY in hedonistic acts.

'However, the actions of people in general are a separate matter from ... the claims of transcend-ency..."

Then WTF bring it up! Then what purpose could bringing up the lie that the religious commit more crimes than atheists serve, if your only going to reject its validity within the discussion?

Morality appears TO YOU to be a biological predisposition...

[MyContext]

@aveyowyns What is your basis for the claim that atheists are more hedonistic, since, the few that I have met are more bookish ? I know far more Christians who are hedonistic so I have difficulty with your claim. Nor, could I find any references online with data to support that assertion.

[MyContext]

@aveyowyns You have made comments about how others feel/think without substantiation. I reflected that notion back in an indirect way, since, I find it wrong to make a claim about a person without knowing it to be true. However, claims of the group which have sufficient data can be made. I do acknowledge that it is in poor taste...So, I will refrain from such acts...

[aveyowyns]

@MyContext

...and if it appears TO YOU that morality is a biological predisposition, then what was the purpose of your first comment, were you took offence to me stating the exact same?!

[payasoinfeliz]

so what is the christians meaning in life? live for god? why live for god? why does god need worship and praise? what is the purpose behind these things god wants? or do you just stop looking for meaning once you shoehorn your imaginary friend in? lol. you have no answers, you have rationalizations.

[aveyowyns]

@payasoinfeliz

Christians find value in serving God. That's it. I need to live for God, because he is what sustains my existence... Living for what is meaningless to my existence is senseless. God doesn't need worship and praise, he just warrants it. The purpose in my praising God is to glorify him in his self-glorification. God isn't imaginary. You have no arguments.

[payasoinfeliz]

@aveyowyns is that what you tell yourself? because it sounds like youre just trying to convince yourself there. i mean, surely youd know it would just sound like bald assertions to me. just as someone of another religion appealing to you in the same fashion would accomplish nothing...

[aveyowyns]

@payasoinfeliz

"Surely you'd know it would sound like bold assertions to me."

So? Your comment does not at all invite discussion, so I refuse to give you one.

[payasoinfeliz]

@aveyowyns lol, replying is hardly refusing to discuss. youve got some insecurity issues you need to deal with...

[aveyowyns]

@payasoinfeliz

Thanks... I'll go see a shrink, meanwhile, you get educated.

[payasoinfeliz]

@aveyowyns educated on how to rationalize fairy tales to myself? so i can be like you? i already got that education as a child, but then i grew up. it happens.

[aveyowyns]

@payasoinfeliz

you're still here?

[payasoinfeliz]

@aveyowyns obviously. youre still here too??? lol

[aveyowyns]

@payasoinfeliz

It's my channel you goof...

...troll, you are now blocked.

[CasperTheMeanieGhost]

Great points Avey.

[AgentOfDoubt]

I think the most self serving aspect of my answers was that they were all the things that I found meaningful. I believe individuals have their own purpose and meaning to life.

As far as someone with diminished capabilities still enjoying life and finding a productive purpose, I'd cite Stephen Hawking and YouTube user Qdragon1337 as inspirational evidence that it is possible to enjoy life in spite of constraints.

Thanks for answering the tag. I'll call your giving me the time of day progress.

[aveyowyns]

@AgentOfDoubt

I do not doubt that you find meaning through the things you listed - my problem was that they were self-centered AS WELL AS temporal. How does your life remain meaningful as you lose the capability to do the things you listed?

Stephen Hawkins and Qdragon1337, I assume, have their minds, so they can at least interact with their environment. The example I gave was someone who had a limited mental capabilities.

[AgentOfDoubt]

@aveyowyns I asked my cousin Kyle if Mountain Dew was a good enough reason to keep on living if I don't believe in gods. He said "Nah, man, BUDWEISER is better."

Kyle is 25 and has Down's Syndrome.

He also said family and Taco Bell are awesome. I told him to try ordering a Budweiser the next time he goes to Taco Bell.

It makes me feel bad for all the Canadians with Down's Syndrome who have to suffer with Molson Ice.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns how does giving glory to god give purpose to self?i mean as you and many put it seems like enjoying the fact he created to stroke his ego is purpose to you how is this purpose?

[aveyowyns]

@ThoseGamerguyz

Logically, a self-sufficient entity can only find satisfaction in the glorification of itself. God created humanity and the only reason sufficient enough to justify his creation of humanity is for his own self-glorification ... We can still find intrinsic worth among those who seem to have a worthless life according to the atheistic criteria of what makes a life worth living, because they still fulfill their purpose of glorifying God.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns hmm i could see that,but in the conversation of purpose does'nt this mean we are looking for something to truly live for? i mean i dont see a being which i have no physical evidence of giving it glory as a truly fulfilling purpose. also if it only created you to stroke it's ego why even live i mean this is taking the leap of faith saying god exists,but i mean why live if your purpose is to stroke something's ego?as a man i çould'nt live that way.

[aveyowyns]

@ThoseGamerguyz

It doesn't matter what you SEE. Like I said at the end of my video, the difference between you and I is that I get to take part in God's self-glorification, while you don't (you still serve to glorify God all the same though).

You aren't stroking God's ego - we are so infinitely small and infinitely sinful that we couldn't scratch the surface of God's ego.

...but once again, it all boils down to logic. If you were created to glorify God, then the only truly fulfilling...

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns well just like many tools that are created lol they can serve other purposes just fine. like i if i was created by that rascal yahweh to glorify him i was given free will so i can and do as a versatile tool make up a purpose and fulfill that teleos and honestly i was'nt made that way maybe it's the way i was brought up.But alas iam not one for glorifying something or soemone im to analytical and critical for that especially if i recieve nothing tangible for the glory given.

[aveyowyns]

@ThoseGamerguyz

The ability to serve other purposes does not add to one's purpose.

You don't have free will - if we are speaking under the assumption that the God who exists has complete authority and sovereignty, than you cannot have a will that is free from it.

"I am not one for glorifying something or someone..."

Neither was the Christian once - it is God who gives humanity the heart to glorify him ... and then see the tangible effects of his/her actions.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns ahh,but we are forgetting that the god concept remains concept not something proven fact sitll is a matter of faith so till then i have some sort of free will even though that will is based in biological predispositions but somewhat free because my frontal lobe gives me the ability to choose within my own limitations and the limitations of the natural law.

[aveyowyns]

@ThoseGamerguyz

Proof for God's existence:

Whatever begin's to exist has a cause; the universe began to exists; therefore, it has a cause.

Whatever is the cause of the universe must supersede the universe in every way; therefore, this cause is timeless, without matter and energy, and without space. Numbers and abstract concepts, like logic, fits the criteria, but they do not cause anything.

Therefore the cause of the universe must have a willing mind.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns so that mind must be god? why? why nothing else? is god the only thing that exist outside of existence as we know it with a willing mind?i mean if he be cause then what motivated him to create the vast cosmos we observed? who gave him his nature?also the first premise fails because as many a person (atheist lol) has said before "in our existence everything we know to exist is a reconstitution of prior elements" like we as humans are basically the elements zinc,iron,carbon, etc.

[aveyowyns]

@ThoseGamerguyz

"Why must that mind be God?"

Easily one of the stupid questions I've ever been asked. It is a mind that we CALL God.

"What motivated him to create the vast cosmos we observed?"

SELF-GLORIFICATION!

"Who gave him this nature?"

He is SELF-EXISTING (as well as beyond the properties of this universe so he is TIMELESS, he has always existed.

No, the first premise doesn't fail. You, along with many other atheists just play word games. YOU never began to exist?

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns me as a oncept as a human being as a atheistic ape began to exist,but only in conept but on the atomic level i've always been here just like you.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns hold on how do you know i call a mind god? or do you mean we as in theists in general?

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns also self glorification is a vague purpose in which we could all say everything glorifies god from helping the homeless to raping a child i mean these things exist and are there for his own self glorification right?

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns also self existing here and a mind dont work a mind especially as we know it are very much so finite had a beginning of some sort and you assert with no evidence god is a mind which usually needs a cause of some sort to exist then say he does not have one you basically say "god does not exist" for he has no cause and the claim he is timeless and outside of all things and never began is baseless.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns also we dont exactly know if the universe truly came into existence it could've already existed in some other state then because of inflationary period and such began to inevitably expand. also it could be a circular pattern big expansion then heat deaths or cold deaths back into what we could call singularities or possibly apart of another universe in some multiverse theory which could also be fact,but is not provable multiverse i mean.

[aveyowyns]

@ThoseGamerguyz

No, we know that the world came into existence because of the Laws of Thermodynamics. The universe is using up a finite amount of usable energy, therefore the universe has not existed infinitely. What's worse is that a infinite regress is ALSO logically impossible.

I provide an argument based on logic as to why the world began and why a mind must have been behind it, and you provide a bunch of unintelligible hypothesis - and I'm not interested.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns ahh your appealing to that popular thermodynamics prove a causer logic eh? fine i'll bite even if the energy is finite how do you know there was'nt before the expansion of the universe just more energy and more time? also you assert the universe was created by some deity or mind oustide of all existence who is unobservable and my hypothesis are unintelligible? lol yeah right.also firthermore these things are very much so discussed in theoretical physics and physics in general so...

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns someone must think it's intelligible.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns also the assertion we were made to glorify yahweh is baseless i mean sure you religion says that,but uh it also has a book that says everyone came from two people fully formed ex nihilo people. this alone makes it so when putting forth such logic you must backup the premise seeing how much religion in general has gotten wrong.

[aveyowyns]

@ThoseGamerguyz

I already showed you that a self-sufficient entity's only justification for doing anything is for itself. If this entity created humanity, then he created them for himself and to glorify himself.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns ahh of course,but you have not shown how or even if the god if they're be one created us with intention.more so i was more curious as to how you found purpose in living a god glorifying life?i mean all those restrictions how do you take pleasure in sex when having to apologize if it is outside of marriage? seems so weird and just silly honestly.

[aveyowyns]

@ThoseGamerguyz

God as the greatest conceivable being, must have created us with intention - if he hadn't, then he wouldn't be the greatest conceivable being, as we could conceive of a being greater who does everything intently.

Of course it seems silly to you, you are not of God so his truths sound meaningless and foolish. What's more, if the sum of your existence is equal to how free you are to have sex, then it's a very sad existence indeed.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns god is the greatest conceivable being? truyl how do we know this?furthermore sex is not the sum of my existence i can point to a few men who's it is,but that's not being discussed here. now not of god lol this makes me laugh because even non believers are of god they just dont acknowledge him according to your book and religion.what you mean to say is i dont follow the words of the alleged christ so of course i scoff at his ideals.

[aveyowyns]

@ThoseGamerguyz

Sex definitely is the sum of your existence - or else you would've pointed to something a little more substantial to prove that Christianity is restrictive.

No, I do not claim that atheists are of God - I claim that even though they ARE NOT OF GOD, they still serve a purpose in bringing him glory.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns now your making blind assertions based on one thing did'nt you critique agent ofdoubt for this same thing a few comments and all of sudden you know me and my beliefs? sounding familliar? also to be of something means to be from like im pierce of illinois in united states of america like jesus of nazereth meaning he was from nazereth if your right then god created all and we are all of him or her.

[aveyowyns]

@ThoseGamerguyz

It's called projection - look it up. If sex wasn't that big a deal in your life, then it would be the last thing you would worry about losing if you became a Christian.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns sorry you misused the psychological term "projection" this means when i project onto another individual traits which iam actually in possession of. i never said you valued sex so much you just assert since it's one of my contentions with the doctrine i listed in a comment. now i could sight a bigger problem than that like the lack of physical evidence for the god's existence the apparent crappy design for human beings i mean you have worse eyes than an owl an owl dude an owl. why?

[aveyowyns]

@ThoseGamerguyz

No, there are plenty of ways through which one projects, not just the way you described.

You could've sighted a bigger problem than 'sex,' but you didn't.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns also the sexism throughout the bible ohh not to mention circumcision advocated by the bible. oh and the book is describing what i would'nt even call a good human being and this thing wants worship i mean it kills babies and wants me to worship it with like no evidence except abstract philosophical concepts in my brain. i mean not to mention the fact for some reason he/she never bothered to stop their word from getting revised so many times.look up when the trinity came into existence.

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns in concept in christianity i mean when i say "when the trinity came into existence"

[ThoseGamerguyz]

@aveyowyns although i do remain accepting of your definition of the phrase.

[aveyowyns]

@ThoseGamerguyz

...action we can do is - you guessed it, glorify God.

*In a way, when I actively glorify God, it is still only God glorifying himself as it was God who created me and caused me to glorify him. My glorification of God does not add to his self-glory.

[MyContext]

@aveyowyns Maybe it's me, but the idea of glorification is pointless. It strongly suggests lack in some fashion. The idea of an all-knowing, all-powerful entity actually appreciating worship from what by comparison must be less than microbes (and even that might be too high a pedestal) is just bizarre.

Atheistic criteria? What is your notion of an atheistic criteria? Since, to my knowledge - atheists as a group are extremely varied.

[aveyowyns]

@MyContext

"Appreciating worship from ... microbes."

God doesn't appreciate (or is thankful for) our worship. God demands it because he deserves it. Humanity was created to worship God, so when they do what they ought to do as God created, he is pleased.

I don't know what you're referring to when you say 'atheistic criteria.' ...but the rejection of God and the transcendent automatically form some sort of positive, philosophical stance as a result - i.e. The physical world is all that is.

[MyContext]

@aveyowyns You made a claim about "atheistic criteria" in the message that I responded to...  I was requesting details as to what you meant by that statement.

I understand that you find the idea of worship to be acceptable/demanded, however, I don't understand why that would be the case. Self aggrandizement seems pointless even more so if you know there is nothing that can compare...and the entities doing the worship are inconsequential by comparison.

[aveyowyns]

@MyContext

"Self glorification seems pointless even more so if you know there is nothing that can compare."

...to you. And? You, like so many other atheists, arrogantly think that what 'seems' to you about God, is valued by Christians.

The 'atheistic criteria' of what makes life worth living is pleasure.  If the atheist does not have a pleasurable life, then it is not worth living... If they can be guaranteed that they will NEVER have a pleasurable life, then they might as well commit suicide.

[aveyowyns]

@thickblkpa

...it must suck to have no friends.

[Fitchyfullistening]

Great video.

[aveyowyns]

@Fitchyfullistening

thank you...

[OWC2000]

How does the glorification of god give life any more meaning? Is worship not a form of slavery?

[ask123321]

@OWC2000 loving God is a great thing. you can frame it as slavery ("you gotta serve somebody" as the song goes) but to me, a form of dignified servitude :)

[ask123321]

@ask123321 (("it's a form of servitude" is what i meant - sorry for typos))

[OWC2000]

@ask123321 Yes loving god may well be a great think, but how does that give your life any more meaning than someone who does not love god?

[ask123321]

@OWC2000 thank you for your response. loving God is about so much more than a search for meaning.  with that said, if loving another person gives meaning and depth to life (as many would agree it does), imagine how much more loving God would provide.

i think i understand the confusion... it's hard to imagine just how much a great love for God can do for you when you do not believe in God. you cannot enjoy fruit from a tree that you choose to believe is not there.

blessings,

amy

[aveyowyns]

@OWC2000

It doesn't give life any MORE meaning... It is the meaning of life. Humanity was created to glorify God - actively or passively we do just that. Yes, it is slavery - God's owns us, he owns the air we breathe.

[OWC2000]

@aveyowyns Sorry but that does not sound very meaningful at all. So please enjoy your slavery (though most do not) and I will enjoy my freedom.

[aveyowyns]

@OWC2000

It doesn't sound meaningful because you don't want it to...

You are a slave - to yourself, to others, to your feelings, to your past experiences, etc... It is I who has the freedom, not you.

[OWC2000]

@aveyowyns I am not sure how slavery would sound meaningful to anyone.

You state that 'you are a slave', so can I assume you have no feelings, no past experiences etc?  You may well have freedom (although since you also claim to be god's slave I am not sure how), but by what right do you claim I do not?

[aveyowyns]

@OWC2000

I do have feelings and past experiences - I, unlike you, am free to act despite them.

You are an atheist - you cannot believe there is any more to yourself than chemical's and firing electrons... Nothing you do or desire is of your own volition, it's just a result of your outside stimuli...

[ask123321]

@OWC2000 you already are enslaved. we all are. in the Gospel of John it reads, "We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?” Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."