Its so frusturating to hear this Indyk moron keep talking when you know so many lies are coming out of his mouth. He knows very well Israel broke the ceasefire. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the obvious.
@Greywind30 Do you ever know what i'm talking about when i say "ceasefire" Did you even watch the video here?
What list are yout talking abou, viewed videos? Perhaps i don't have that debate maybe because i didn't see it. In either case i don't remember it, ill check it out now.
You are just another example of a moron zionist trying to discredit a very rational man. As usual you make vague assurtions but as usual cannot explain how they hold up, because they don't.
@Greywind30 Yea i just saw the debate, total waste of time. Gil Troy totally gets destroyed at the end of that debate, you can even tell by his shaking voice he didn't have a good response. He just made the typical (both sides) argument that has absolutely no substence. Because at the end of the day one has to have some perspective and you can clarify the problems of this conflict. Many pro Israeli zionists love to brush it away by saying its complex.
@Greywind30 I am really shocked as to how anybody could think Gil Troy actually beat out Finkelstein in the debate. Out of all the examples you could have used to better support your opinion you have litelarly picked the worst one. Is that the only debate you saw with Finkelstein and someone else?
The simple thing is not to just destroy the opponent because believe it or not there actually is people against Israels terrorism.
@Greywind30 Also there actually is seperation in the jewish community. Jstreet is a good example, many members supported the Goldstone report, whereas the right wing zionists clearly did not.
It does absolutely have signifance for Arabs, they have their homes there. They have lived there for generations. You know what i'm not going to bother debating with you anymore, its clear that you are nothing but a zionist racist piece of crap. You have said absolutely nothing of signifance so far
@Greywind30 Here is a simple fact for you just from recent times. Since 2000 0 jewish homes have been torn down, over 24 thousand Palestinians have been.
Troy has absolutely nothing to say in the whole debate, except for the fact that "it requires both sides" When Finkelstein brings up international law at the end he has absolutely no rebuttal. The only thing that he can say is oh the UN, and the most known human rights groups are all biased towards Israel, its pathetic.
@Greywind30 He doesn't point out anything about the suicide attack. His response was essentially saying we don't exactly know, and i'm pretty sure there was violence before too. Once again vaugue general assertions. He doesn't say anything conclusive in the whole debate. He is just trying to appear to be moderate, but as we can see he goes back on the typical zionist rant about how the whole world is against Israel by calling UN biased and everything else. Like i said pathetic.
@kenzo4000 "He doesn't point out anything about the suicide attack"
"NORMAN FINKELSTEIN VS GIL TROY 2 of 3" at 57sec Troy says terrorism starts in 2000 NF at 8:15 deny it
So you already wrong.
NF lied that between Sep.2000 and March 2003 "there was not a single terrorist attack"! NEXT thing this moron says.... suicide bombing began 5mo after 2nd intifada...
ROFL! LOL
He (NF) is moron and people who follow him are idiots
@Greywind30 lol you are a joke. Gil Troy goes all over the place and doesn't even have a central argument. He starts invoking how there was some Palestinians celebrating after 9/11 lol What does that have to do with what they are talking about. He is constantly making these general statements. The funniest quote he made was "some Israelis want Palestinian land" lol some?? Why doesn't expose the reality, the government wants it.
@Greywind30 Also how is Gil Troy right even in these assesments? The funniest thing you have said so far is "ceasefire is not peace" Yes it is not peace, it is ceasefire which Israel broke. You cannot even debate that fact.
In this debate at least Finkelstein can state sources to support his opinion. Gil Troy is just talking out of his ass. The end of this debate explains everything and Troys shaking voice.
@kenzo4000 You dont get it do you? Let me explain it to you in simples possible terms. NF quote:"between Sep.2000 and March 2003 there was not a single terrorist attack"! That's 3 years without attack starting Sep 2000. Next thing he said: "suicide bombing began 5mo after 2nd intifada" and when 2nd intifada started? Sep 2000 See? No? NF said: No terror attack for 5 yr starting Sep 2000 and first attack happen 5 month from Sep 2000. Still dont get it?
@kenzo4000 "In this debate at least Finkelstein can state sources to support his opinion"
ROFL!
What sources Ben Ami? NF deliberately lie in this debate. If you listen to previous debate Ben Ami said he can understand rejection of Camp David but problem is Taba. NF conveniently forgot this part.
But what am I doing? You dont get simple thing like difference between 5 month and 3 years. LOL
@Greywind30 GIl Troy is full of crap in that debate. The fact that he even mentions the Oslo accords and doesn't admit that it was Israel that did not hold up their end of the bargain is just shameful.
Also i just saw that part you were talking about. I think it's pretty clear that it was just a mixture of words. He says there wasn't terrorism for 5 months, from end of September to march. When he said 2000-2003 that was obviously a mistake.
@kenzo4000 "The fact that he even mentions the Oslo accords and doesn't admit that it was Israel that did not hold up their end of the bargain"
Name me what PLO/Arafat did on their end? I can put a list what Israeli did.
You still dont get it. He also said there were 20 to 1 casualties and that lead to terrorism. But it means there were casualties from Israeli side. Get it?
How do you account for a Goebbels like half true about Ben Ami?
You are obviously bias and deny in your face facts. Bye
@Greywind30 Israel expanded their settlements, did not withdraw from agreed upon areas, nothing was done about the refugee status etc... I really don't need to go into a full length history lesson. Anybody who has internet access can google this stuff.
Also the fact that there were casualties on both sides, does not equal terrorism. According to you any fighting from the Palestinians must be terrorism, and Israel is defending itself LMAO
I ask the question "Name me what PLO/Arafat did on their end?" Where is the answer?
I ask do you have any idea how many ORIGINAL refugies from this conflict? Where is the answer?
You are as dishonest as your idol NF.
YOu dont understand Ben Ami reference? I'm not surprise
Yes all PLO/hamas does is a terrorism. Note. I'm not calling Egyptian, Jordanian or even Syrian that. They fought open in open war as millitary arm of Arab world but PLO etc are not soldiers but terrorist.
@Greywind30 Typical pro-Israeli propogandist. It was Israel that provoked Palestinians and essentially continued their practices of building settlements, not withdrawing, ignoring the refugee question. Arafat's main purpose would have been to stop the terrorism. The problem is Israel did not cease their terrorist activities, so naturally the Palestinians did not as well. Finkelstein says it pretty well in that video. When Israel keeps getting aggresive, they will respond.
@Greywind30 So i answered your question pretty well. Like every typical zionist your responses never deal with cold hard facts. "Israel did plenty on their end" Yep they certainly did, they continued their activities as if nothing was signed at all.
As for the number of original refugees, yes i am quite aware that it is a significant numbers. But Israel was not moving into the direction of even trying to solve the problem.
@kenzo4000 "Arafat's main purpose would have been to stop the terrorism." Did he?
PLO get everything in return for simple promice they never indend to hold. They got back over administrative and police control over WB/Gaza, money, recognition and even weapon. What the give back? Nothing.
In Fact Arafat continue with inflamotory propoganda and continue with hate propoganda for kids as old as 4yr. This end peace.
Again How many original refugies? Its look like u are totally ignorant.
@Greywind30 The Israeli organization is a much bigger terrorist. Just read some international law and take a good look at how many human rights abuses, and breaches of international law they have committed.
@Greywind30 The fact he didn't even say these things at separate parts of the debate should be clear enough. Throughout the debate even with such a clear mistake in phrasing Finkelstein still has a much more coherent viewpoint. Gil Troy goes all over the place and says anything that could place the Palestinians in a negative light, even if it has nothing to do with the specific topic they are talking about.
Uncle99B is not what he seems - blunt, stupid antisemite , consumed by hate and beyond any reason.
He is a ... zionist. Yes Uncle99B is a jew zionist who is trying prove that only strong Israel is safe place for jews in face of such blind unreasonable hate
@Greywind30 For how long, the attitude of Israel is unfair to coming generation (s). Unless they find settlement with Palestineans they will be never at peace.
On what ground you put all burden on Israeli? To make a peace you need two sides and only blind can deny fact that arabs dont want any peace. They want victory. Fact is that masses brainwashed into frenzy and leader can't make a peace with Isreal even IF (big if) they want to. Fact is that hamas is foremost religious group by nature dont want anything less then all land. IN FACT they dont hide it. It is in chatter.
"It is no anomaly that Jews have been kicked out of every European nation"
Uncle, This is the most brainless islamonazi cliché. Tell me uncle is our history as human race so benevolent and peaceful that prosecution of small religious minority so rare and has to be for a good logical reason? So many nations, tribes, states disappear without trace without any other reason then lost war.
Yes people specially in democracy have gov. they deserve. It's simple logic but too much for moron
@Greywind30 . The Jewish people continue to make the same mistakes century after century because they are fed a load of crap about how they are always completely innocent people who are hated irrationally by all Jews. Because they fail to learn the actual history and instead are fed this ridiculous narrative, they repeat the same behavior that inevitabley alienates all non Jews. They work together to accumulate power (and here I mean elite Jewry, not a run of the mill smuck like you) and
@Greywind30. People get the gov they deserve. What horsesh&t. You do understand the difference between an unsubstantiated assertion and simple logic, do you not?
He said hamas is on RECORD they want to keep peace on CONDITION...
Actually hamas on the record they do not recognize Israel and have a goal to destroy it.
At same time they demand welfare.
Other point NF quote UN as moral authority but can take seriously organization that make Syria member of human rights counsel AFTER it execute hundreds of own citizen. Unfortunately majority of members are 3rd world and rest dont want to mess with arab oil mafia
@Greywind30. Has there ever been a bigger welfare state than Israel? Hands deep into the pockets of the Swiss Banks, German Govt, and US taxpayer to the tune of nearly $1 trillion over a period of six decades, they sit there in their smug entitlement, wallowing in their supposed victimhood while they oppress and murder millions. Time to pull the plug on these psychopaths
@Greywind30. When you include all the loans that are not paid back, the direct $3 billion per year, all the specials like the recent iorn dome project, all the tax free donations to Jewish "charities" that go to Israel, all the free loan guarantees, etc., best estimates are that Israel gets $20 billion per year from the USA alone. For decades. Add in 60 plus years of payments plus the massive shakedown of the swiss banks, $1 trillion is a conservative figure.
Till 1967 Israel had no priviliges. None. It got loans to buy EXCESS of food. By 67 Israel made itself regional superpower in every way not just millitary.
Compensation from germany and Swiss, tax free donation are hardly an issue neither morally or by scale.
You obviously dont trust check and balance of democratic system and to degree its healthy. TO DEGREE.
Truth (IMHO) is Israel is still very useful to US because Arabs are unrelieble cold war can return.
@Greywind30 . If the trillion plus dollars that Israle has received from Germany, Switzerland, and the USA ius "hardly an issue" ("neither morally or by scale' -- whatever the fu&k that means), then would they please return all of it. We could use it. The Jewish banksters on wall Street have robbed us all blind and we could use it
@Uncle99B " If the trillion plus dollars that Israle has received "
There are no trillions. Its exactly my point. Your number are hugely overblown. You have intresting way to argue.
"The Germans were much more humane" To UK/USA PoW yes. Not so with Polish or russians and totally inhumene with Gypsy. Anyhow. What does it have to do with our dispute?
@Greywind30. At least a trillion dollars. Between direct gifts of $3 billion per year, loans that are not repaid, free loan guarantees, frequent extra funds such as for the recent Iron Dome, all the tax dollars unpaid due to donations to "Jewish charities" that end up in Israel, the dollars gifted to settle any and every Jew in the world into Israel, and so much more, the US taxpayer alone is out $20 billion per year. For decades. Add in German and Swiss dollars -- do the math
Whatever you think of jews, Israeli, democracy and own goverment the simple fact is ...
If you look at hystory it all make perfect sense. USA did not just support Israel. They had not support it till 67.
In fact US interfere on side of Arabs in 56(?). In 48 US weapon embargo work against Israel. But by 1967 Arab became client of SU and USA had no choice.
Count how much US spend on lost wars in Viet and Cuba and support for Israel will make sense
@Greywind30 The USA only supports Israel because of the treasonous Jewish Lobby that is holding the UAS political system hostage. They have been quite successful but sooner of later they will fall -- and when that happens all Jews will face the consequences. They have made a huge error.
@Uncle99B "The USA only supports Israel because of the treasonous Jewish Lobby "
If that what you BELIEVE...well who can argue with "believer". I can argue on facts, logic etc but look like you made a "leap of faith" so sure you believe anything that support your point of view. Any boggus number any assumption.
BTW. Your threats are best justification for Israel. Personally I'm not zionist (yes I'm jew) but after our conversation....
@Greywind30. It does not take a leap of faith to know Israel gets all the benefits and the USA none from the relationship. To watch the Jewish Lobby at work as it goes after every politician and media person who does not spout the Israeli line. To know that it is not possible that virtually every single national pol from each party would swear loyalty to Israel (and no other foreign nation) were it not for pressure. You are not a Zionist, you are a dupe of the Zionists
@Greywind30 . It is debatable whether Israle was a US ally or not during the Cold War. What is not debatable is that the Cold War ended over 30 years ago and the money is still flowing in a one way direction.
It really is not jewish Lobby. It is more like a crime family made up of Jewish elites. Racketeering, blackmail, extortion, bribery being the tools of their trade.
The relationship is one way, that of a parastite and its host.
@Greywind30 So the US, the most powerful nation in the history of the planet, has to give Israel billions of dollars every year to protect us from a Cold War that ended 30 years ago? You're gonna have to give a little more detail on that claim
"US, the most powerful nation in the history of the planet"
It can't rule on power alone and as matter as fact can't handle talibans.
I dont think I need to explain that while US most powerful nation but it has to take in account Russia and China and emerging superpower like India and Pakistan.
Israel is a power house in hi tech and science as well in military industry. It is a regional super power in very important region. So its just logical to keep it as ally.
@Greywind30 . The USA can't handle "Talibans". So we need tiny, parasitic Israel? Hell, Taliban would not be an enemy to the USA were it not for Israel. Tell Israel to keep itshands off of the USA.
First Taliban are example, an illusration if you will that "brutal" power is not enough.
Second. Israel is not a reason for war. Fact they give cover to Bin Ladin is.
And no. Bin Laden did not attack US because of Israel
Uncle,
Why dont you get the fuck out of US if you think your goverment so corrupt and so stupid? Granted its not perfect but you are just crazy if with your conspiracy and your "arguments"
So and I but unlike you I believe in democratic system and while I believe in your rights to be crazy conspiracy theorist and question goverment I can't help but wander why do you stay? If USA so corrupt and stupid as you think it is.
@Greywind30 . Nope, unlike me your loyalty is not to America but instead to a foreign nation, Israel. America is not corrupt at its highest levels? What, are you two years old?
@Greywind30 . I have no doubt your loyalty is not to justice, not to the USA, but to Jews and Israel. It is no anomaly that Jews have been kicked out of every European nation they have been in.
@Greywind30. The USA is prosecuting alleged Nazi war criminals 65 plus years after the fact. No such prosecution of Japanese -- a nation that treated US prisoners far worse than Germany did. I forgot to mention that the grand-children of Israeli "survivors" have sued Germany for emotional damage. The survivors may all die, but the gravy train goes on
@Greywind30. Google it. Big article in Der Spiegel is all over the net. The young folk of israel are suing the Germans for emotional damage from the events of WWII. That tells you nothing of the Israeli people? The something for nothing attitude of entitlement?
@Uncle99B There is nothing about "young folks" of Israel.
There are GOING to be discussion with German about actual cost of care for holocaust survivors. According quote on NF site.
Germany give to Israel 3.5B and according state controller Israel spend 4x more on them. If its only for covering experiences on survivors its totally legit.
Are you sure that young people in Israel sue Germans on mass scale?
Money by itself is just a paper. Israel was build by Israeli and turn into first class country in every single way not just as military region superpower. It's first class industrial, agricultural and science country. Arab have 1000x time money and .... what?
@Greywind30 . So you see no sickness in a society where young people are trying to get on the Holocaust gravy train more than 65 years after the fact? It has nothing to do with the cost of care of actual survivors; there you are lying or are misinformed. Read the damn article. Google children of Holocaust survivors sue Germany. It's not that hard to do. And if you are not sickened by these parasites...
@Uncle99B "So you see no sickness in a society where young people are trying to get on the Holocaust gravy"
Are you talking about 4 year old case?
Young folks you are talking about NF age and older and I'm not tracking this at all. I had no idea about it and dont care. It irrelavant in every way. Even if its frivoless case so what? It could be greedy law firm trying to make money and who knows how many people it represent. I dont see any follow up after 2007.
@Greywind30 . So now you looked it up and realize you were wrong about the "children of survivors" suing Germany for psychological damages; you were lying about the cost of caring for the survivors. But dismiss its relevance because the class action suit was filed 4 years ago? It could be a greedy law firm. Right. that must be it. The Israeli plaintiffs really aren't looking to continue the gravy train provided by the German taxpayers, they were tricked into it by some greedy goyim lawyers
@Uncle99B "you were lying about the cost of caring for the survivors"
Was I? Only person lying here is you
Dude you suck out of your finger trillions and justifying your numbers with some class action law suit that was filed 4yr ago and as far I can see has no follow up. There is no info about age or number of plaitive. You are milking insignificant and irrelevant case and by doing so you admit ... you have no case.
@Greywind30 . Yes, you were lying. How are you questiong that? You claimed that the Israeli youth were suing for care for survivors, not for psychological damage they claim is being done to them. That is what a lie is. You may think is insignificant that another generation of Israelis is getting onto the German provided gravy train (in addition to the US taxpayer provided gravy train), but I do not share that view. It is pathetic and typical. And you wonder why Israel is despised
Dude, You have to differentiate between nation as whole and a few individual.
I have no idea what is your ethnic background but I'm sure you have some great people and some criminal, some greedy sob etc. How would you like to be branded as greedy sob because actions of few?
I'm not claiming that all jews/israeli are saint but on large scale we have pretty good record.
Fact is Israeli survived and build great country and did it against huge odds
@Uncle99B Ask any American GI from WWII who they rather would be held prisoner by -- the japanese or the Germans. The Germans were much more humane. Yet, 66 years after the end of the war, and 90 year old men are still being tried for being prison guards in nazi camps. Sick sh*t
Martin Indyk will be taking part in Intelligence Squared’s live debate entitled “The Middle East peace process is a charade” in London, Sept 2010. Hear him argue against the motion and ask him questions in person. Go to our website Intelligence Squared for info and tickets. This event can be watched live online worldwide.
Norman Finkelstein is the most truthful voice in the choir of selfrighteous zionists, and believe me, I heard and read many liars tell their fabricated 'thruths'. I wonder when the american people will realize, that they are paying 6-7billions of dollars every year to maintain the murderous regime in Israel....money the american people could use for its own good.
The Rothschild/Rockefeller cabal is slow killing us with bad water, staple foods like corn and potatoes and the msm they owns steady diet of zionshit. Educate your frineds people. This is no joke. We are under attack. I have been threatened and had my kids threatened by men in suits because I have been recruited by masons and shunned them and told them that they are zion stooges and unknowingly doing in their own country. Basically the stop being a sucker speech. I recieved no encore. lol
indyk trying to fool all you idiots just like some of these other pro zionist supporters who are trying to legitimise israel atrocities if you want to no the truth try and do some independant research for yourselves and look at both sides open your eyes learn the truth!!!!!!!!!!!
Well done Embassador Indyk, you are a true, well educated Jew! Finkelstien, is a schmok, who capitalises on alleged Jewishness only when he attacks Israel /Jews & respects terrorists. No Jew would have acted in such a dishonest & irrational way as Finkelstein does. Please expell him out of the USA & send him to Gaza, Syria or Iran, where he will feel at home. Indyk has the of education & experience in this field, that truth distorters like Finkelstien can only dream about.
@wholytraveler - yes it does hurt to know that the are still so many anti-Semites out there who tell lies & incite against Jews/Israelis. Yet, we will overcome & see them parish as happened with all those empires who started with us & are long gone.
@wholytraveler so I wish you a full recovery, though I do have my doubts as those who usuualy like his videos as much as you do, appear to have sucked anti-Semitism in their mother's milk...
I respect that man. Finkestein, you are a true man; we back you up. I wsh that he becomes the presindent of the U.S.A. But he won't, and if he did, he will get assassinated like John F. Kennedy.
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Dumb ass!! Of course he goes on. He was invited without being told that there was another side. If I was on there I would not let a word out of the ignoramus Finkelstein.
It has nothing to do with being afraid. They lied to get indyk on the show. If you want to hold a debate both sides need to be aware beforehand, so that they can prepare. Indyk is right to hold them to their word! I am not afraid of hearing other opinions ,even opinions as far fetched and pathetic as finks, that is how I found this clip.
Finkelstein is the man!! Give it to 'em Norman!! Finkelstein and Chomsky can argue against the entire U.S. and Israeli government and whip their lying asses!!
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Finklestink is a liar. Taba failed because Arafat could not agree to a final settlement. He only knew how to be a terrorist, not a leader. The IJC made no such ruling, nor did it have the jurisdiction to do so. Jerusalem belongs to Israel legally because of the terms of the treaty of San Remo, ratified in 1922. The same treaty is the basis for the legal justification of every Arab country in the region as well - and its terms have NEVER been overturned. Kill one right, kill them all.
The ICJ actually did make this ruling. Do a search for: U.N. court rules West Bank barrier illegal
In that ruling the ICJ says that Israel is illegally occupying Gaza and the West Bank, including Jerusalem and that the West Bank wall is illegal.
How in the hell could Finklestien sit there and say the court made the ruling if it hadn't? And how in the hell does the court not have jurisdiction!? It's the highest court in the world!
The IJC gave an advisory opinion, not a ruling. Their mandate is to settle disputes when both parties agree to allow the case to be heard. As such it acted outside its mandate, and the ICJ has acknowledged that fact.
The ICJ is not "the highest court in the world" - there is no such institution fulfilling that role.
i've wondered the same thing myself. "stein" in german is pronounced "shtine", but Finkelstein himself pronounces the last syllable of his name as "steen"
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Finklestink isn't brave - Amy Goodman's "Democracy if It Suits Me" is extremely friendly territory for Finklestink - she has him on all the time. It's not a "debate" - he gets most of the mike time and drones on without Amy giving Indyk a chance to reply to most of his drivel. See his glaze as he talks - he's reciting the same patter he uses over & over again - he's looking inward not outward.
Brave is being a Christian in Gaza like members of Rami Ayyad's family, or a Copt in Egypt.
yes, i would be rather bored of repeating the same facts all the time. you have a problem with his delivery, or the facts? 10 dead on Israel's side; over 1,300 on the Palestinians. Over 300 children! But what really matters is Finkelstein is droning. oh and that Hamas are evil.
Wrong. Israel may prevent Gazans (as citizens of a belligerent entity) from entering Israel but it does not prevent Christian Palestinians per se from seeing their holy sites.
The same cannot be said of Hamas who prevented hundreds of Fatah supporters from leaving Gaza to go on Hajj to Mecca last year and the year before.
what?? withdraw from Gaza to where? the Mediterranean??
you know it is idiots like you that know nothing of the history of the region who really distract the real argument. whenever Israel gives land, it gives land it had previously illegally occupied. so if anything, Israel should withdraw from all Israel
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Wrong, my friend. Gaza and the West Bank are "disputed territory" according to international law, because Israel won them in a defensive war, and also claims to have a historical connection to that land. Tell me what you know about the history of the region. Who came first, the Muslims or the Jews? Tell me, when did Palestine declare its independence?
Since 1974, every single year a resolution is introduced in the United Nation General Assembly to solve the conflict. In this resolution the whole world agrees on calling it "occupied territory" and every single year only USA and Israel along with some other 3 or four pacific islands the total population of which is roughly 2000 ppl vote against it, the rest of the world votes in favor. So the whole world agrees on calling it "occupied territory" except USA and its master, Israel
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Typical Palestinian logic. So why is it occupied, because the majority calls it that? Do you even know the definition of "occupied territory"? Occupied territory is land captured in war from an established and recognized sovereign state. Is Palestine a recognized sovereign state? No, it is not. Not even Jordan had legal sovereignty over the West Bank since they captured it in an offensive war.
What? There have been "occupied territories" before there was ever ANY such thing as a "recognized sovereign state". Rome OCCUPIED Africa. Spain OCCUPIED South America. Britain OCCUPIED India. All of these immoral.
Call it what it is--conquest.
Your just arguing semantics.
If the Palestinian territories are not OCCUPIED (which they are) then they are CONQUERED and have israeli COLONIES on them. Gaza is BLOCKADED by air, land and sea, so it's a PRISON.
"Occupied" territories are recognized independent sovereign countries which are being controlled by another power. Which country is Israel occupying? Palestine? When did Palestine declare its independence as a sovereign state? It didn't, the Arabs decided to go to war with Israel instead.
The blockade is a different story. Would any other nation do any differently to an area controlled by an organization which has called for its destruction both verbally and in its charter? Didn't think so.
An OCCUPIED territory is an recognized independent sovereign country being controlled by another power. Which sovereign state is Israel controlling? Palestine? When did they declare independence? They didn't, they went to war with Israel instead.
The blockade is a different story. Would any other nation do differently to an area controlled by an organization calling for its destruction verbally and in its charter? Didn't think so.
An OCCUPIED territory is an recognized independent sovereign country being controlled by another power. Which sovereign state is Israel controlling? Palestine? When did they declare independence? They didn't, they went to war with Israel instead.
The blockade is a different story. Would any other nation do differently to an area controlled by an organization calling for its destruction verbally and in its charter? Didn't think so.
An OCCUPIED territory is an recognized independent sovereign country being controlled by another power. Which sovereign state is Israel controlling? Palestine? When did they declare independence? They didn't, they went to war with Israel instead.
The blockade is a different story. Would any other nation do differently to an area controlled by an organization calling for its destruction verbally and in its charter? Didn't think so.
An OCCUPIED territory is an recognized independent sovereign country being controlled by another power. Which sovereign state is Israel controlling? Palestine? When did they declare independence? They didn't, they went to war with Israel instead.
The blockade is a different story. Would any other nation do differently to an area controlled by an organization calling for its destruction verbally and in its charter? Didn't think so.
An OCCUPIED territory is an recognized independent sovereign country being controlled by another power. Which sovereign state is Israel controlling? Palestine? When did they declare independence? They didn't, they went to war with Israel instead.
Palestine is a sovreign state, they have their own government and they WENT TO WAR WITH ISRAEL CUZ ISRAEL KICKED THEM ALL OUT. How can you be sovereign when you lost your land??
a declaration of sovereignty is just a technicality. don't kid yourself. conquest of any people, whether or not they have a piece of paper that says they are a "state", is NEVER justified. you are probably one of the few clowns in the world that thinks Palestine isn't occupied. get a reality check.
1. The Palestinians have their own government, that does not make Palestine a sovereign state. If you don't believe me, why are they still yearning for a state?
2. Israel didn't kick them all out. Most fled by fear, some were encouraged to leave by Arab leaders, some expelled by zionists, and around Gaza, Palestinians were evacuated by force by the Egyptian army (read Yassir Arafat's authorized biography by Alan Hart)
1. they're yearning for a state cuz THEY ARE OCCUPIED. you can't be a state if you are occupied.
2. Israel kicked thousands out, Some fled yes, cuz they were TERRIFIED that israel was going to violently kick them out, which it did. arab leaders told em to leave cuz any sensible person would have told palestinians to leave cuz israel was going to harm to them. the whole fleeing was because of the terror that israel posed to palestinians.
1. Palestine was not a sovereign state before the settlements and outposts came in. Therefore, it is not an occupation. Answer my question: When did Palestine declare its independence as an independent sovereign state?
2. Israel did indeed kick thousands out, but for strategical reasons. For example, many Arab villages where placed right beside highways which Israel needed to transport ammunition and utilities through. Since Arab villages were there, it offered an easy way for Arabs to cut off..
..major Jewish cities from one another. Being a defensive war in which Israel would have been destroyed had it lost, there were no questions asked, and kicking the Arabs out of those villages was what they did in order to get their utilities from place to place.
You're partially right about fleeing. They were terrified about FALSE radio reports showing Israeli "massacres" going around everywhere. If you think it is Israel who was going to terrorize the Palestinians, who started the war?..
..and what did the Arabs promise will happen to Israel and the Jews if they had won the war? Very hypocritical statement you made there, considering that the other side would have done far worse had it won.
oh god i have never heard so much made up BS in my life. the ARABS wanted their land back. do you know what the NATIVE AMERICANS wanted to do to the European Settlers? Do you know what the South American people wanted to do to Spain. All the brutalized indigenous people of the world wanted to murder their conquerors. And we all understand why that is.
The Palestinians were the same. Israel was back by western nations. Palestinians needed people to protect them. Hence the Arabs. IMPERIALISM.
Can you prove my "BS" wrong with something other than propaganda? And what do you mean by "their land"? Zionists came and bought their land (oh and I'm looking forward to you calling this BS too) from the Turkish Sultan (yes, Ottoman Empire time) and British (yup, the British Mandate) and the land belonged to the Jewish National Fund.
And you still think the Arabs were resisting the Jews? Why was it fine to have a dozen empires over Palestine but it's not ok to have a Jewish state?
i think we both already went over this. the British MANDATED the partition of the land to the jews. this was an imperialist, immoral move because they unfairly divvied it up. Now, the jews in Europe use their money and power to make this happen and it does NOT change the fact that the Palestinians were forced off their land by FOREIGNERS who wanted transfered the land amongst themselves. The U.S. said same thing to Indians--"you don't own this land, so we can buy it or take it."
First, the British didn't divide it up, the U.N. did. There was the Peel Commission which would give Arabs 85% of Palestine and the Jews would get about 14-15% (some land still mandated), much on the land they bought.
You're excluding many things in your words. You speak as if Jews have never set foot in Palestine until Zionism, while Jews have indeed lived there 2000 years before Islam landed, and even until the First Aliyah.
I think we went over why Palestinians left. Here's some more info:
*Israeli government
kenzo4000 7 months ago
*even
kenzo4000 7 months ago
Truth Vs Lies&Interests!
Crazy how she introduces the ambassador and then how she introduces the Dr.
Even these medias are on his side!
MrOnlypeace 8 months ago
Listening to Indyk is like watching a turd fall into my drink.
MrDarkbloom 9 months ago
Its so frusturating to hear this Indyk moron keep talking when you know so many lies are coming out of his mouth. He knows very well Israel broke the ceasefire. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the obvious.
kenzo4000 9 months ago in playlist Prof. Norman Finkelstein
@kenzo4000 The only moron here is you. "Ceasefire" is not peace and if one side attempting use it for attack preparation it is a deal breaker.
BTW I see you did not include in your list "NF vs Gil Troy". Why is that? Is it because Troy bitch slat your hero?
NF is demagogy and hypocrite. He is not serious historian and whenever he meet one in debate he get bitch slap.
Greywind30 7 months ago
@Greywind30 Do you ever know what i'm talking about when i say "ceasefire" Did you even watch the video here?
What list are yout talking abou, viewed videos? Perhaps i don't have that debate maybe because i didn't see it. In either case i don't remember it, ill check it out now.
You are just another example of a moron zionist trying to discredit a very rational man. As usual you make vague assurtions but as usual cannot explain how they hold up, because they don't.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
@Greywind30 Yea i just saw the debate, total waste of time. Gil Troy totally gets destroyed at the end of that debate, you can even tell by his shaking voice he didn't have a good response. He just made the typical (both sides) argument that has absolutely no substence. Because at the end of the day one has to have some perspective and you can clarify the problems of this conflict. Many pro Israeli zionists love to brush it away by saying its complex.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
@kenzo4000 "Gil Troy totally gets destroyed" ROFL.
Troy completely destroy NF as provocateur and bias populist without any constructive position
You want simple? Simple thing to do is just to destroy opponent and beat him in submission and Israel has power to do it.
Simple truth is Brits create this problem by giving conflicting promises and dividing territory in a way that promote conflict.
Simple fact is that land of Israel has no value, no significance for Arabs and life line for Israeli
Greywind30 7 months ago
@Greywind30 I am really shocked as to how anybody could think Gil Troy actually beat out Finkelstein in the debate. Out of all the examples you could have used to better support your opinion you have litelarly picked the worst one. Is that the only debate you saw with Finkelstein and someone else?
The simple thing is not to just destroy the opponent because believe it or not there actually is people against Israels terrorism.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
@Greywind30 Also there actually is seperation in the jewish community. Jstreet is a good example, many members supported the Goldstone report, whereas the right wing zionists clearly did not.
It does absolutely have signifance for Arabs, they have their homes there. They have lived there for generations. You know what i'm not going to bother debating with you anymore, its clear that you are nothing but a zionist racist piece of crap. You have said absolutely nothing of signifance so far
kenzo4000 7 months ago
@kenzo4000 "It does absolutely have signifance for Arabs, they have their homes there. They have lived there for generations"
You have no idea about this conflict. Care to tell me how many jews lost home and land as results of arab action?
Troy absolutely destroy NF on subject.
round one. Troy dismiss NF babbling about legitimacy of term.
round 2 Troy point out that NF lie about when suicide attack started
round 3 Troy dismiss NF as nothing more then nihilist without any constructive input
Greywind30 7 months ago
@Greywind30 Here is a simple fact for you just from recent times. Since 2000 0 jewish homes have been torn down, over 24 thousand Palestinians have been.
Troy has absolutely nothing to say in the whole debate, except for the fact that "it requires both sides" When Finkelstein brings up international law at the end he has absolutely no rebuttal. The only thing that he can say is oh the UN, and the most known human rights groups are all biased towards Israel, its pathetic.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
@Greywind30 He doesn't point out anything about the suicide attack. His response was essentially saying we don't exactly know, and i'm pretty sure there was violence before too. Once again vaugue general assertions. He doesn't say anything conclusive in the whole debate. He is just trying to appear to be moderate, but as we can see he goes back on the typical zionist rant about how the whole world is against Israel by calling UN biased and everything else. Like i said pathetic.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
@kenzo4000 "He doesn't point out anything about the suicide attack"
"NORMAN FINKELSTEIN VS GIL TROY 2 of 3" at 57sec Troy says terrorism starts in 2000 NF at 8:15 deny it
So you already wrong.
NF lied that between Sep.2000 and March 2003 "there was not a single terrorist attack"! NEXT thing this moron says.... suicide bombing began 5mo after 2nd intifada...
ROFL! LOL
He (NF) is moron and people who follow him are idiots
Greywind30 7 months ago
@Greywind30 lol you are a joke. Gil Troy goes all over the place and doesn't even have a central argument. He starts invoking how there was some Palestinians celebrating after 9/11 lol What does that have to do with what they are talking about. He is constantly making these general statements. The funniest quote he made was "some Israelis want Palestinian land" lol some?? Why doesn't expose the reality, the government wants it.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
@Greywind30 Also how is Gil Troy right even in these assesments? The funniest thing you have said so far is "ceasefire is not peace" Yes it is not peace, it is ceasefire which Israel broke. You cannot even debate that fact.
In this debate at least Finkelstein can state sources to support his opinion. Gil Troy is just talking out of his ass. The end of this debate explains everything and Troys shaking voice.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
Greywind30 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@kenzo4000 "In this debate at least Finkelstein can state sources to support his opinion"
ROFL!
What sources Ben Ami? NF deliberately lie in this debate. If you listen to previous debate Ben Ami said he can understand rejection of Camp David but problem is Taba. NF conveniently forgot this part.
But what am I doing? You dont get simple thing like difference between 5 month and 3 years. LOL
Greywind30 7 months ago
@Greywind30 GIl Troy is full of crap in that debate. The fact that he even mentions the Oslo accords and doesn't admit that it was Israel that did not hold up their end of the bargain is just shameful.
Also i just saw that part you were talking about. I think it's pretty clear that it was just a mixture of words. He says there wasn't terrorism for 5 months, from end of September to march. When he said 2000-2003 that was obviously a mistake.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
@kenzo4000 "The fact that he even mentions the Oslo accords and doesn't admit that it was Israel that did not hold up their end of the bargain"
Name me what PLO/Arafat did on their end? I can put a list what Israeli did.
You still dont get it. He also said there were 20 to 1 casualties and that lead to terrorism. But it means there were casualties from Israeli side. Get it?
How do you account for a Goebbels like half true about Ben Ami?
You are obviously bias and deny in your face facts. Bye
Greywind30 7 months ago
@Greywind30 Israel expanded their settlements, did not withdraw from agreed upon areas, nothing was done about the refugee status etc... I really don't need to go into a full length history lesson. Anybody who has internet access can google this stuff.
Also the fact that there were casualties on both sides, does not equal terrorism. According to you any fighting from the Palestinians must be terrorism, and Israel is defending itself LMAO
kenzo4000 7 months ago
@kenzo4000
I ask the question "Name me what PLO/Arafat did on their end?" Where is the answer?
I ask do you have any idea how many ORIGINAL refugies from this conflict? Where is the answer?
You are as dishonest as your idol NF.
YOu dont understand Ben Ami reference? I'm not surprise
Yes all PLO/hamas does is a terrorism. Note. I'm not calling Egyptian, Jordanian or even Syrian that. They fought open in open war as millitary arm of Arab world but PLO etc are not soldiers but terrorist.
Greywind30 7 months ago
@Greywind30 Typical pro-Israeli propogandist. It was Israel that provoked Palestinians and essentially continued their practices of building settlements, not withdrawing, ignoring the refugee question. Arafat's main purpose would have been to stop the terrorism. The problem is Israel did not cease their terrorist activities, so naturally the Palestinians did not as well. Finkelstein says it pretty well in that video. When Israel keeps getting aggresive, they will respond.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
@Greywind30 So i answered your question pretty well. Like every typical zionist your responses never deal with cold hard facts. "Israel did plenty on their end" Yep they certainly did, they continued their activities as if nothing was signed at all.
As for the number of original refugees, yes i am quite aware that it is a significant numbers. But Israel was not moving into the direction of even trying to solve the problem.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@kenzo4000 "Arafat's main purpose would have been to stop the terrorism." Did he?
PLO get everything in return for simple promice they never indend to hold. They got back over administrative and police control over WB/Gaza, money, recognition and even weapon. What the give back? Nothing.
In Fact Arafat continue with inflamotory propoganda and continue with hate propoganda for kids as old as 4yr. This end peace.
Again How many original refugies? Its look like u are totally ignorant.
Greywind30 7 months ago
@Greywind30 The Israeli organization is a much bigger terrorist. Just read some international law and take a good look at how many human rights abuses, and breaches of international law they have committed.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
@Greywind30 Also i have no idea what you were trying to say with your comment about Ben Ami.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
@Greywind30 The fact he didn't even say these things at separate parts of the debate should be clear enough. Throughout the debate even with such a clear mistake in phrasing Finkelstein still has a much more coherent viewpoint. Gil Troy goes all over the place and says anything that could place the Palestinians in a negative light, even if it has nothing to do with the specific topic they are talking about.
kenzo4000 7 months ago
I think I also have conspiracy theory.
Uncle99B is not what he seems - blunt, stupid antisemite , consumed by hate and beyond any reason.
He is a ... zionist. Yes Uncle99B is a jew zionist who is trying prove that only strong Israel is safe place for jews in face of such blind unreasonable hate
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 For how long, the attitude of Israel is unfair to coming generation (s). Unless they find settlement with Palestineans they will be never at peace.
bhartek 7 months ago
@bhartek,
On what ground you put all burden on Israeli? To make a peace you need two sides and only blind can deny fact that arabs dont want any peace. They want victory. Fact is that masses brainwashed into frenzy and leader can't make a peace with Isreal even IF (big if) they want to. Fact is that hamas is foremost religious group by nature dont want anything less then all land. IN FACT they dont hide it. It is in chatter.
Greywind30 7 months ago
then use that power to further advance their goals at the expense of the society at large, And do it in an agressive, condescending, obnoxious manner.
Dark ages? This expelling the Jews has gone on or millenia and will have to happen again
Uncle99B 9 months ago
It is an abomination that Israeli Firsters are given such powerful positions in the US power apparatus
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B
"It is no anomaly that Jews have been kicked out of every European nation"
Uncle, This is the most brainless islamonazi cliché. Tell me uncle is our history as human race so benevolent and peaceful that prosecution of small religious minority so rare and has to be for a good logical reason? So many nations, tribes, states disappear without trace without any other reason then lost war.
Yes people specially in democracy have gov. they deserve. It's simple logic but too much for moron
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 . A cliche? I dunno. A fact -- most certainly. No other group you make this claim! Congrats
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B "cliche? I dunno. A fact -- most certainly. "
Yes cliche.
Yes fact but what behind this fact. You imply it because jews deserve it. I'm saying it was such time. Dark ages.
Do you think thousands of women burn by inquisition as witches deserve it too?
No other group making this claim because they gone. Disappear. Killed to last man or assimilate.
So uncle who is responsible for electing gov starting from Truman?
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 . The Jewish people continue to make the same mistakes century after century because they are fed a load of crap about how they are always completely innocent people who are hated irrationally by all Jews. Because they fail to learn the actual history and instead are fed this ridiculous narrative, they repeat the same behavior that inevitabley alienates all non Jews. They work together to accumulate power (and here I mean elite Jewry, not a run of the mill smuck like you) and
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Greywind30. People get the gov they deserve. What horsesh&t. You do understand the difference between an unsubstantiated assertion and simple logic, do you not?
Uncle99B 9 months ago
Here is a problem with NF.
He said hamas is on RECORD they want to keep peace on CONDITION...
Actually hamas on the record they do not recognize Israel and have a goal to destroy it.
At same time they demand welfare.
Other point NF quote UN as moral authority but can take seriously organization that make Syria member of human rights counsel AFTER it execute hundreds of own citizen. Unfortunately majority of members are 3rd world and rest dont want to mess with arab oil mafia
Greywind30 10 months ago
@Greywind30. Has there ever been a bigger welfare state than Israel? Hands deep into the pockets of the Swiss Banks, German Govt, and US taxpayer to the tune of nearly $1 trillion over a period of six decades, they sit there in their smug entitlement, wallowing in their supposed victimhood while they oppress and murder millions. Time to pull the plug on these psychopaths
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B "Swiss Banks, German Govt, and US taxpayer to the tune of nearly $1 trillion"
Some wacky estimate it at 3T only from USA so you are just ¼ crazy.
Israel received about $100 B from US and about 3B comp from Germany.
Considering that US waist ½T on Viet war and lost 100k soldiers and lost war for insignificant country. 100B for winning war on ME is nothing.
Considering what German did and what they robe from jews 3B is small price to pay. BTW Germany paid off comp for WW1 a few yr ago.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30. When you include all the loans that are not paid back, the direct $3 billion per year, all the specials like the recent iorn dome project, all the tax free donations to Jewish "charities" that go to Israel, all the free loan guarantees, etc., best estimates are that Israel gets $20 billion per year from the USA alone. For decades. Add in 60 plus years of payments plus the massive shakedown of the swiss banks, $1 trillion is a conservative figure.
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B
Till 1967 Israel had no priviliges. None. It got loans to buy EXCESS of food. By 67 Israel made itself regional superpower in every way not just millitary.
Compensation from germany and Swiss, tax free donation are hardly an issue neither morally or by scale.
You obviously dont trust check and balance of democratic system and to degree its healthy. TO DEGREE.
Truth (IMHO) is Israel is still very useful to US because Arabs are unrelieble cold war can return.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 . If the trillion plus dollars that Israle has received from Germany, Switzerland, and the USA ius "hardly an issue" ("neither morally or by scale' -- whatever the fu&k that means), then would they please return all of it. We could use it. The Jewish banksters on wall Street have robbed us all blind and we could use it
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B " If the trillion plus dollars that Israle has received "
There are no trillions. Its exactly my point. Your number are hugely overblown. You have intresting way to argue.
"The Germans were much more humane" To UK/USA PoW yes. Not so with Polish or russians and totally inhumene with Gypsy. Anyhow. What does it have to do with our dispute?
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30. At least a trillion dollars. Between direct gifts of $3 billion per year, loans that are not repaid, free loan guarantees, frequent extra funds such as for the recent Iron Dome, all the tax dollars unpaid due to donations to "Jewish charities" that end up in Israel, the dollars gifted to settle any and every Jew in the world into Israel, and so much more, the US taxpayer alone is out $20 billion per year. For decades. Add in German and Swiss dollars -- do the math
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B
Whatever you think of jews, Israeli, democracy and own goverment the simple fact is ...
If you look at hystory it all make perfect sense. USA did not just support Israel. They had not support it till 67.
In fact US interfere on side of Arabs in 56(?). In 48 US weapon embargo work against Israel. But by 1967 Arab became client of SU and USA had no choice.
Count how much US spend on lost wars in Viet and Cuba and support for Israel will make sense
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 The USA only supports Israel because of the treasonous Jewish Lobby that is holding the UAS political system hostage. They have been quite successful but sooner of later they will fall -- and when that happens all Jews will face the consequences. They have made a huge error.
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B "The USA only supports Israel because of the treasonous Jewish Lobby "
If that what you BELIEVE...well who can argue with "believer". I can argue on facts, logic etc but look like you made a "leap of faith" so sure you believe anything that support your point of view. Any boggus number any assumption.
BTW. Your threats are best justification for Israel. Personally I'm not zionist (yes I'm jew) but after our conversation....
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30. It does not take a leap of faith to know Israel gets all the benefits and the USA none from the relationship. To watch the Jewish Lobby at work as it goes after every politician and media person who does not spout the Israeli line. To know that it is not possible that virtually every single national pol from each party would swear loyalty to Israel (and no other foreign nation) were it not for pressure. You are not a Zionist, you are a dupe of the Zionists
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B
"Israel gets all the benefits and the USA none"
Are u denying fact that Israel was valueble ally in cold war?
"watch the Jewish Lobby "
OK. Lets watch it. Lobby is strange but legal custom and reason it successful is support of majority of American people. Hence polititions pendering.
There are objective reasons for this allience and your totally forgo any objectivity by ignoring facts and history.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 . It is debatable whether Israle was a US ally or not during the Cold War. What is not debatable is that the Cold War ended over 30 years ago and the money is still flowing in a one way direction.
It really is not jewish Lobby. It is more like a crime family made up of Jewish elites. Racketeering, blackmail, extortion, bribery being the tools of their trade.
The relationship is one way, that of a parastite and its host.
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B "It is debatable whether Israle was a US ally or not during the Cold War."
No it is not.
"What is not debatable is that the Cold War ended over 30 years ago"
And I dont dispute this. point I made that allience between Israel and USA was forge on perfectly legit base on common interest.
Simple fact is ME too important and volatile and USA needs ally there
Fact is Russia is not a SU but it is not friend either. It is not democracy and cold war can return
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 So the US, the most powerful nation in the history of the planet, has to give Israel billions of dollars every year to protect us from a Cold War that ended 30 years ago? You're gonna have to give a little more detail on that claim
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B
"US, the most powerful nation in the history of the planet"
It can't rule on power alone and as matter as fact can't handle talibans.
I dont think I need to explain that while US most powerful nation but it has to take in account Russia and China and emerging superpower like India and Pakistan.
Israel is a power house in hi tech and science as well in military industry. It is a regional super power in very important region. So its just logical to keep it as ally.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 . The USA can't handle "Talibans". So we need tiny, parasitic Israel? Hell, Taliban would not be an enemy to the USA were it not for Israel. Tell Israel to keep itshands off of the USA.
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B
Dear uncle,
First Taliban are example, an illusration if you will that "brutal" power is not enough.
Second. Israel is not a reason for war. Fact they give cover to Bin Ladin is.
And no. Bin Laden did not attack US because of Israel
Uncle,
Why dont you get the fuck out of US if you think your goverment so corrupt and so stupid? Granted its not perfect but you are just crazy if with your conspiracy and your "arguments"
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30. I am an American. Why don't you Israelis and Israeli Firsters get the hell out and find a new host for your parasitic behavior?
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B "I am an American"
So and I but unlike you I believe in democratic system and while I believe in your rights to be crazy conspiracy theorist and question goverment I can't help but wander why do you stay? If USA so corrupt and stupid as you think it is.
Uncle,
take a blue pill and return to reality.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 . Nope, unlike me your loyalty is not to America but instead to a foreign nation, Israel. America is not corrupt at its highest levels? What, are you two years old?
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B "America is not corrupt at its highest levels?"
Every nation has a gov they deserve. Specially in democracy.
Nothing wrong with being sceptical and critical but you are on whole new level.
I doubt you loyal to USA. More likely to your islamonazi ideas.
Greywind30 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Greywind30 . I have no doubt your loyalty is not to justice, not to the USA, but to Jews and Israel. It is no anomaly that Jews have been kicked out of every European nation they have been in.
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Greywind30 . "Every nation has the gov they deserve"? What nonsense. You are a complete and utter fool.
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Greywind30. The USA is prosecuting alleged Nazi war criminals 65 plus years after the fact. No such prosecution of Japanese -- a nation that treated US prisoners far worse than Germany did. I forgot to mention that the grand-children of Israeli "survivors" have sued Germany for emotional damage. The survivors may all die, but the gravy train goes on
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B "the grand-children of Israeli "survivors""
I have no idea what are u talking about and what relevance it has.
Seems to me you just throw as much accusation as possible and its either totally groundless or groundless and irrelevant to topic
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30. Google it. Big article in Der Spiegel is all over the net. The young folk of israel are suing the Germans for emotional damage from the events of WWII. That tells you nothing of the Israeli people? The something for nothing attitude of entitlement?
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B There is nothing about "young folks" of Israel.
There are GOING to be discussion with German about actual cost of care for holocaust survivors. According quote on NF site.
Germany give to Israel 3.5B and according state controller Israel spend 4x more on them. If its only for covering experiences on survivors its totally legit.
Are you sure that young people in Israel sue Germans on mass scale?
Link?
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Uncle99B
Bottom line dear uncle is...
Money by itself is just a paper. Israel was build by Israeli and turn into first class country in every single way not just as military region superpower. It's first class industrial, agricultural and science country. Arab have 1000x time money and .... what?
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 . So you see no sickness in a society where young people are trying to get on the Holocaust gravy train more than 65 years after the fact? It has nothing to do with the cost of care of actual survivors; there you are lying or are misinformed. Read the damn article. Google children of Holocaust survivors sue Germany. It's not that hard to do. And if you are not sickened by these parasites...
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B "So you see no sickness in a society where young people are trying to get on the Holocaust gravy"
Are you talking about 4 year old case?
Young folks you are talking about NF age and older and I'm not tracking this at all. I had no idea about it and dont care. It irrelavant in every way. Even if its frivoless case so what? It could be greedy law firm trying to make money and who knows how many people it represent. I dont see any follow up after 2007.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 . So now you looked it up and realize you were wrong about the "children of survivors" suing Germany for psychological damages; you were lying about the cost of caring for the survivors. But dismiss its relevance because the class action suit was filed 4 years ago? It could be a greedy law firm. Right. that must be it. The Israeli plaintiffs really aren't looking to continue the gravy train provided by the German taxpayers, they were tricked into it by some greedy goyim lawyers
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B "you were lying about the cost of caring for the survivors"
Was I? Only person lying here is you
Dude you suck out of your finger trillions and justifying your numbers with some class action law suit that was filed 4yr ago and as far I can see has no follow up. There is no info about age or number of plaitive. You are milking insignificant and irrelevant case and by doing so you admit ... you have no case.
if that's all you got...you have no case.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind30 . Yes, you were lying. How are you questiong that? You claimed that the Israeli youth were suing for care for survivors, not for psychological damage they claim is being done to them. That is what a lie is. You may think is insignificant that another generation of Israelis is getting onto the German provided gravy train (in addition to the US taxpayer provided gravy train), but I do not share that view. It is pathetic and typical. And you wonder why Israel is despised
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B
Dude, You have to differentiate between nation as whole and a few individual.
I have no idea what is your ethnic background but I'm sure you have some great people and some criminal, some greedy sob etc. How would you like to be branded as greedy sob because actions of few?
I'm not claiming that all jews/israeli are saint but on large scale we have pretty good record.
Fact is Israeli survived and build great country and did it against huge odds
Greywind30 9 months ago
@Greywind3o. Israel has survived by being a parasite. No other reason
Uncle99B 9 months ago
@Uncle99B Ask any American GI from WWII who they rather would be held prisoner by -- the japanese or the Germans. The Germans were much more humane. Yet, 66 years after the end of the war, and 90 year old men are still being tried for being prison guards in nazi camps. Sick sh*t
Uncle99B 9 months ago
Indyk is a Mossad agent - PERIOD. He is the FIRST ambassador to ever have his clearance revoked.
aipacsucks 1 year ago 2
Mr Finkelstein is kinda creepy, but he shure kicks ass.
wybo2 1 year ago
this is scary,
how do people like Indyk make it to the US government?
smextex 1 year ago
@smextex same way bush did!!!
jaycrazyman 10 months ago
jew-rats and their Hasbara manual coaching other rats to subvert. Wake up world!
Xianman06 1 year ago
God bless you Norman Finkelstein
samibh100 1 year ago 8
This is like watching a UFC fighter (Finkelstein) fighting a white belt in Tai Chi.
Brutal, leaving him in a bloody, broken heap.
jacobin111 1 year ago 2
The last time i saw someone get their ass kicked this bad was Alan Darshowitze. The common link....Norman Finkelstien...HAHA. Norm is a legend
AfghaniNazaaha 1 year ago
Don't fuck with Finkelstein. He'll read your book...and beat you over the head with it.
unabomberman 1 year ago 21
@unabomberman HAHAHA!
leshark 1 year ago
@unabomberman : nice one.....succintly put.
I think the Savon Institute should be looking for a new head.
kevinherbert 6 months ago
Martin Indyk will be taking part in Intelligence Squared’s live debate entitled “The Middle East peace process is a charade” in London, Sept 2010. Hear him argue against the motion and ask him questions in person. Go to our website Intelligence Squared for info and tickets. This event can be watched live online worldwide.
iqsquared 1 year ago
Norman Finkelstein is the most truthful voice in the choir of selfrighteous zionists, and believe me, I heard and read many liars tell their fabricated 'thruths'. I wonder when the american people will realize, that they are paying 6-7billions of dollars every year to maintain the murderous regime in Israel....money the american people could use for its own good.
kalyez 1 year ago 14
Martin Indyk clearly shows his reality as a complete fool with brains not enough even fill an egg cup
ahseeen 1 year ago
The Rothschild/Rockefeller cabal is slow killing us with bad water, staple foods like corn and potatoes and the msm they owns steady diet of zionshit. Educate your frineds people. This is no joke. We are under attack. I have been threatened and had my kids threatened by men in suits because I have been recruited by masons and shunned them and told them that they are zion stooges and unknowingly doing in their own country. Basically the stop being a sucker speech. I recieved no encore. lol
sssssjjjj1 1 year ago
"I stayed up until 1 a.m. and made sure I read until page four hundred and fifteen". Christ, Norman Finkelstein must be great at parties.
borjon23 1 year ago 6
Ehud Barak is a war criminal...the organiser of the murder of 1300 civilians in Gaza...a monster in the Nazi mould...
kevinherbert 1 year ago 5
Indyk is a Zionist stooge...short on accurate facts...full of Zionist shit....Norman rocks
kevinherbert 1 year ago 7
indyk trying to fool all you idiots just like some of these other pro zionist supporters who are trying to legitimise israel atrocities if you want to no the truth try and do some independant research for yourselves and look at both sides open your eyes learn the truth!!!!!!!!!!!
eazzymo 1 year ago
Well done Embassador Indyk, you are a true, well educated Jew! Finkelstien, is a schmok, who capitalises on alleged Jewishness only when he attacks Israel /Jews & respects terrorists. No Jew would have acted in such a dishonest & irrational way as Finkelstein does. Please expell him out of the USA & send him to Gaza, Syria or Iran, where he will feel at home. Indyk has the of education & experience in this field, that truth distorters like Finkelstien can only dream about.
blessings18 1 year ago
@blessings18 truth hurts doesn't
wholytraveler 1 year ago 2
@wholytraveler - yes it does hurt to know that the are still so many anti-Semites out there who tell lies & incite against Jews/Israelis. Yet, we will overcome & see them parish as happened with all those empires who started with us & are long gone.
blessings18 1 year ago
@blessings18 i'm glad you agree that the truth hurts. It's the first step to recovery
wholytraveler 1 year ago
@wholytraveler so I wish you a full recovery, though I do have my doubts as those who usuualy like his videos as much as you do, appear to have sucked anti-Semitism in their mother's milk...
blessings18 1 year ago
@blessings18 So what specific facts do you argue Finkelstien is incorrect about?
FAHayek89 1 year ago
I respect that man. Finkestein, you are a true man; we back you up. I wsh that he becomes the presindent of the U.S.A. But he won't, and if he did, he will get assassinated like John F. Kennedy.
Wahbi90 1 year ago 3
finklestein has always reminded me of john malkovich, just the way he carries himself.
:)
Shabzana 1 year ago
you are so in tune with the subject of this talk.
tareekhnawees 1 year ago
Is that sarcasm?
Shabzana 1 year ago
Holy Crap.
Indyk goes on and on and on.
oldjoe5 2 years ago 5
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Dumb ass!! Of course he goes on. He was invited without being told that there was another side. If I was on there I would not let a word out of the ignoramus Finkelstein.
polack099 1 year ago
@polack099 .
So you too would be afraid to let Fink speak?
oldjoe5 1 year ago 7
It has nothing to do with being afraid. They lied to get indyk on the show. If you want to hold a debate both sides need to be aware beforehand, so that they can prepare. Indyk is right to hold them to their word! I am not afraid of hearing other opinions ,even opinions as far fetched and pathetic as finks, that is how I found this clip.
polack099 1 year ago
@polack099 . Indyk nearly crapped his pants when he discovered his lies would be challenged. Did you not see his face, hear his whiny tone?
oldjoe5 1 year ago 3
@polack099 thats the best criticism you can come up with? ...nothing to do with finks statements....lol..of course.
pengo2007 1 year ago
I looked up Zionist in the dictionary and it said, see; liar.
66605 2 years ago 51
hahahaha true true zionism also holds the same meaning as terrorism
treklar 1 year ago
its unreal how this old fart (Martin Indyk) lie
never trust a weak old fart like that
bananito2 2 years ago 48
By the way'indyk' means a turkey in Polish:Indyk is of Polish jewish stock.
FMOlszynaa44 2 years ago 3
@bananito2 : true
kevinherbert 1 year ago
Finkelstein is the man!! Give it to 'em Norman!! Finkelstein and Chomsky can argue against the entire U.S. and Israeli government and whip their lying asses!!
NYCHustler03 2 years ago 13
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Finklestink is a liar. Taba failed because Arafat could not agree to a final settlement. He only knew how to be a terrorist, not a leader. The IJC made no such ruling, nor did it have the jurisdiction to do so. Jerusalem belongs to Israel legally because of the terms of the treaty of San Remo, ratified in 1922. The same treaty is the basis for the legal justification of every Arab country in the region as well - and its terms have NEVER been overturned. Kill one right, kill them all.
eclecticCircus2 2 years ago
You're confused.
thefreeassociation 2 years ago
The ICJ actually did make this ruling. Do a search for: U.N. court rules West Bank barrier illegal
In that ruling the ICJ says that Israel is illegally occupying Gaza and the West Bank, including Jerusalem and that the West Bank wall is illegal.
How in the hell could Finklestien sit there and say the court made the ruling if it hadn't? And how in the hell does the court not have jurisdiction!? It's the highest court in the world!
thefreeassociation 2 years ago 2
@thefreeassociation
The IJC gave an advisory opinion, not a ruling. Their mandate is to settle disputes when both parties agree to allow the case to be heard. As such it acted outside its mandate, and the ICJ has acknowledged that fact.
The ICJ is not "the highest court in the world" - there is no such institution fulfilling that role.
eclecticCircus2 2 years ago
i almost feel sorry for Indyk's obvious inability to respond to his worthier opponent
dancebaby808 2 years ago 4
is the correct pronunciation of jewish names ending with 'stein' pronounced 'steen', 'shteen', stine' or 'shtine'?
bhvfnhb 2 years ago
i've wondered the same thing myself. "stein" in german is pronounced "shtine", but Finkelstein himself pronounces the last syllable of his name as "steen"
dancebaby808 2 years ago 2
i think it's a german name actually. but i could be wrong with this.
the81kid 2 years ago
martyn indyk does look villainous .. ...
majaap 2 years ago 5
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Too bad Yassir Arafat is no longer around, I'm sure he would have loved having Finkelstein suck his dick.
Maccabeus1897 2 years ago
I love Norman, truth seeker....so brave!!!!!
God bless Norman.....
nafter9 2 years ago 2
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Finklestink isn't brave - Amy Goodman's "Democracy if It Suits Me" is extremely friendly territory for Finklestink - she has him on all the time. It's not a "debate" - he gets most of the mike time and drones on without Amy giving Indyk a chance to reply to most of his drivel. See his glaze as he talks - he's reciting the same patter he uses over & over again - he's looking inward not outward.
Brave is being a Christian in Gaza like members of Rami Ayyad's family, or a Copt in Egypt.
eclecticCircus2 2 years ago
yes, i would be rather bored of repeating the same facts all the time. you have a problem with his delivery, or the facts? 10 dead on Israel's side; over 1,300 on the Palestinians. Over 300 children! But what really matters is Finkelstein is droning. oh and that Hamas are evil.
the81kid 2 years ago 6
@eclecticCircus2 "Brave is being a Christian in Gaza..."
You do know that the Israeli government prevents Christian Palestinians from seeing their holy sites, right?
juliaisafilmbuff123 2 years ago 6
@juliaisafilmbuff123
Wrong. Israel may prevent Gazans (as citizens of a belligerent entity) from entering Israel but it does not prevent Christian Palestinians per se from seeing their holy sites.
The same cannot be said of Hamas who prevented hundreds of Fatah supporters from leaving Gaza to go on Hajj to Mecca last year and the year before.
eclecticCircus2 2 years ago
Finkelstein destroyed Indyk. Almost feel sorry for the guy.
He wouldn't have come on the show had he known Finkelstein would be on.
But he had a book to sell, haha.
crazymulgogi 2 years ago 6
one of the best debators i have ever seen. owned
drgoodvibesxxx 2 years ago 4
Mr. Finkelstein is just unbeatable. He read the damn book last night lol. Owned.
SmokiSounds 2 years ago 6
I can't listin to Indyk. He has a shitty voice.
FaaarLeft 2 years ago 5
This guys looks like Dick Cheyne .....are they brothers? Same evil look.
baboudi 2 years ago 5
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"All the concessions came from the Palestinians"
So.. the Palestinians withdrew completely from Gaza?
OBZ 2 years ago
what?? withdraw from Gaza to where? the Mediterranean??
you know it is idiots like you that know nothing of the history of the region who really distract the real argument. whenever Israel gives land, it gives land it had previously illegally occupied. so if anything, Israel should withdraw from all Israel
peachybeach 2 years ago
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Wrong, my friend. Gaza and the West Bank are "disputed territory" according to international law, because Israel won them in a defensive war, and also claims to have a historical connection to that land. Tell me what you know about the history of the region. Who came first, the Muslims or the Jews? Tell me, when did Palestine declare its independence?
OBZ 2 years ago
Since 1974, every single year a resolution is introduced in the United Nation General Assembly to solve the conflict. In this resolution the whole world agrees on calling it "occupied territory" and every single year only USA and Israel along with some other 3 or four pacific islands the total population of which is roughly 2000 ppl vote against it, the rest of the world votes in favor. So the whole world agrees on calling it "occupied territory" except USA and its master, Israel
lying bastard
peachybeach 2 years ago
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Typical Palestinian logic. So why is it occupied, because the majority calls it that? Do you even know the definition of "occupied territory"? Occupied territory is land captured in war from an established and recognized sovereign state. Is Palestine a recognized sovereign state? No, it is not. Not even Jordan had legal sovereignty over the West Bank since they captured it in an offensive war.
Typical Palestinian propaganda.
OBZ 2 years ago
What? There have been "occupied territories" before there was ever ANY such thing as a "recognized sovereign state". Rome OCCUPIED Africa. Spain OCCUPIED South America. Britain OCCUPIED India. All of these immoral.
Call it what it is--conquest.
Your just arguing semantics.
If the Palestinian territories are not OCCUPIED (which they are) then they are CONQUERED and have israeli COLONIES on them. Gaza is BLOCKADED by air, land and sea, so it's a PRISON.
fahimh 2 years ago
"Occupied" territories are recognized independent sovereign countries which are being controlled by another power. Which country is Israel occupying? Palestine? When did Palestine declare its independence as a sovereign state? It didn't, the Arabs decided to go to war with Israel instead.
The blockade is a different story. Would any other nation do any differently to an area controlled by an organization which has called for its destruction both verbally and in its charter? Didn't think so.
OBZ 2 years ago
An OCCUPIED territory is an recognized independent sovereign country being controlled by another power. Which sovereign state is Israel controlling? Palestine? When did they declare independence? They didn't, they went to war with Israel instead.
The blockade is a different story. Would any other nation do differently to an area controlled by an organization calling for its destruction verbally and in its charter? Didn't think so.
OBZ 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
An OCCUPIED territory is an recognized independent sovereign country being controlled by another power. Which sovereign state is Israel controlling? Palestine? When did they declare independence? They didn't, they went to war with Israel instead.
The blockade is a different story. Would any other nation do differently to an area controlled by an organization calling for its destruction verbally and in its charter? Didn't think so.
OBZ 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
An OCCUPIED territory is an recognized independent sovereign country being controlled by another power. Which sovereign state is Israel controlling? Palestine? When did they declare independence? They didn't, they went to war with Israel instead.
The blockade is a different story. Would any other nation do differently to an area controlled by an organization calling for its destruction verbally and in its charter? Didn't think so.
OBZ 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
An OCCUPIED territory is an recognized independent sovereign country being controlled by another power. Which sovereign state is Israel controlling? Palestine? When did they declare independence? They didn't, they went to war with Israel instead.
The blockade is a different story. Would any other nation do differently to an area controlled by an organization calling for its destruction verbally and in its charter? Didn't think so.
OBZ 2 years ago
An OCCUPIED territory is an recognized independent sovereign country being controlled by another power. Which sovereign state is Israel controlling? Palestine? When did they declare independence? They didn't, they went to war with Israel instead.
OBZ 2 years ago
Palestine is a sovreign state, they have their own government and they WENT TO WAR WITH ISRAEL CUZ ISRAEL KICKED THEM ALL OUT. How can you be sovereign when you lost your land??
a declaration of sovereignty is just a technicality. don't kid yourself. conquest of any people, whether or not they have a piece of paper that says they are a "state", is NEVER justified. you are probably one of the few clowns in the world that thinks Palestine isn't occupied. get a reality check.
fahimh 2 years ago
1. The Palestinians have their own government, that does not make Palestine a sovereign state. If you don't believe me, why are they still yearning for a state?
2. Israel didn't kick them all out. Most fled by fear, some were encouraged to leave by Arab leaders, some expelled by zionists, and around Gaza, Palestinians were evacuated by force by the Egyptian army (read Yassir Arafat's authorized biography by Alan Hart)
I think you're the one who needs a reality check.
OBZ 2 years ago
1. they're yearning for a state cuz THEY ARE OCCUPIED. you can't be a state if you are occupied.
2. Israel kicked thousands out, Some fled yes, cuz they were TERRIFIED that israel was going to violently kick them out, which it did. arab leaders told em to leave cuz any sensible person would have told palestinians to leave cuz israel was going to harm to them. the whole fleeing was because of the terror that israel posed to palestinians.
fahimh 2 years ago
1. Palestine was not a sovereign state before the settlements and outposts came in. Therefore, it is not an occupation. Answer my question: When did Palestine declare its independence as an independent sovereign state?
2. Israel did indeed kick thousands out, but for strategical reasons. For example, many Arab villages where placed right beside highways which Israel needed to transport ammunition and utilities through. Since Arab villages were there, it offered an easy way for Arabs to cut off..
OBZ 2 years ago
..major Jewish cities from one another. Being a defensive war in which Israel would have been destroyed had it lost, there were no questions asked, and kicking the Arabs out of those villages was what they did in order to get their utilities from place to place.
You're partially right about fleeing. They were terrified about FALSE radio reports showing Israeli "massacres" going around everywhere. If you think it is Israel who was going to terrorize the Palestinians, who started the war?..
OBZ 2 years ago
..and what did the Arabs promise will happen to Israel and the Jews if they had won the war? Very hypocritical statement you made there, considering that the other side would have done far worse had it won.
OBZ 2 years ago
oh god i have never heard so much made up BS in my life. the ARABS wanted their land back. do you know what the NATIVE AMERICANS wanted to do to the European Settlers? Do you know what the South American people wanted to do to Spain. All the brutalized indigenous people of the world wanted to murder their conquerors. And we all understand why that is.
The Palestinians were the same. Israel was back by western nations. Palestinians needed people to protect them. Hence the Arabs. IMPERIALISM.
fahimh 2 years ago
Can you prove my "BS" wrong with something other than propaganda? And what do you mean by "their land"? Zionists came and bought their land (oh and I'm looking forward to you calling this BS too) from the Turkish Sultan (yes, Ottoman Empire time) and British (yup, the British Mandate) and the land belonged to the Jewish National Fund.
And you still think the Arabs were resisting the Jews? Why was it fine to have a dozen empires over Palestine but it's not ok to have a Jewish state?
OBZ 2 years ago
i think we both already went over this. the British MANDATED the partition of the land to the jews. this was an imperialist, immoral move because they unfairly divvied it up. Now, the jews in Europe use their money and power to make this happen and it does NOT change the fact that the Palestinians were forced off their land by FOREIGNERS who wanted transfered the land amongst themselves. The U.S. said same thing to Indians--"you don't own this land, so we can buy it or take it."
fahimh 2 years ago
First, the British didn't divide it up, the U.N. did. There was the Peel Commission which would give Arabs 85% of Palestine and the Jews would get about 14-15% (some land still mandated), much on the land they bought.
You're excluding many things in your words. You speak as if Jews have never set foot in Palestine until Zionism, while Jews have indeed lived there 2000 years before Islam landed, and even until the First Aliyah.
I think we went over why Palestinians left. Here's some more info:
OBZ 2 years ago
Acc