He only said that he would think your a bad person for thinking that he will burn in hell for all eternity, didn't say all atheists (going by the quote)! You beat the sh*t out of a dog for humping yours, that makes you a bad person. You should now that's actually normal through other species!
You are a Ambassador of Dog Toturing , you are not a good person. What about the suffering of that poodle you tortured , just because it boned your dog ? Your dog was not RAPED , she wanted it, she called him over, ask all your laughing neighbours. No matter what you do now , you will go to HELL .
My problem with the you choose hell defense is that it misrepresents hell as a negative punishment (withholding something good) which may be just, as you aren't obligated to give blessings to someone who doesn't want them, however Hell is really a positive punishment (giving something bad) it also assumes an Arminian view of soteriology, when I am convinced that at least some of the Bible teaches predestination
What a nice exit plan innit? To stand and be judged for your actions and thoughts by a god who supposedly created EVERYTHING, your soul, your body (well, Adam and Eve, in the case of Christianity), your past, the present, everybody's future, time itself (again, everything).
I'm still trying to "get" how it is that anyone is even responsible for anything they ultimately do. Free will, sure, but it supposedly fits into this god's "Divine Plan" or whatever. There's no escaping destiny, right?
Im am enraged by the idea that you have a voice to even argue your point ,shut up and fuck your city you never saw and fuck your condescending attitude .
You condoning torture make you repulsive to me ,i feel ill being here i have to go.
Again if your child didn't want to watch Barney the dinosaur and you told your child,it a great show and still your child wanted to watch Dora instead ,how long would you hold your Child's hands on the stove burner? or would you instead light all four and roast your child ,but never let your child die from burns ,how sick would that be ,if you try to bring us to a god like that ,you really are a horrible person a would joint Satan and try to overthrow this sadistic child killer you call God.
You are hurt because a man does not agree with you while the stakes are immensely higher ,if God made everything would it be necessary to go in the city and why do we have to thank a God before we see this city to get in and would this God build a hell of endless torture for these who decide not to thank him before seeing.
If your feeling are hurt ,dont you think it would be immensely more painful to be tortured for ever? think about it (FOREVER TORTURED) where do i signed up?
It's simple, if you believe that human beings deserve to be punished for eternity because of the actions of one of our ancestors, you are a bad person, as in, you are unethical.
As a little thought excercise, replace the god in this hypothetical situation with a powerful dictatorship whom you have absolutely no conceivable hope of overthrowing. That dictatorship operates a utopian city that is perfect in every way. In order to be allowed entry into this city you must agree to unconditionally love and obey the dictatorship. On top of that, anyone outside of the city will be tortured and set on fire.
Now argue how being their ambassador makes you a good person.
No, the suffering is NOT because you have decided you don't want to be in the city.
The suffering is because GOD has decided that if you don't want to be in the city, you will suffer.
This is the crux of the argument. It's why as even if there was any kind of conclusive proof (which there is not) of the god that your religion proposes, my moral code would REQUIRE me, in theory, to actively oppose that god.
It isn't so much that believing in a god of judgement makes you a bad person, what makes most christians bad is that they believe in a god who is willing to dole out the WORST possible punishment for the most minor infraction. Example: if I happened to be born in say...Pakistan, and Islam is what I knew...I go to hell for simply being misguided, for not knowing the truth...whatever. Burn forever if you don't believe in me bullshit. That's part of why I'm an atheist.
If you agree with the scripture then you think he is a bad person, there is no wiggle room there if you accept Gods word. If you dont, then you are at odds with scriptures morality, which of course is god morality, being the true word of god.
You have to believe it or you are a heretic.
Just admit that you think he deserves it and we can all go home.
I dunno if you're a good person or not, you seem like a good person. Having your entire country (pretty much) believing in Christianity could be a little intimidating, and I can see how people just want to join the crowd.
You can think I'm going to a bad place after I die if you want, I don't care. But don't call me a bad person either, and we'll co-exist peacefully.
If your god has created only three realms, earth, heaven, and hell; and everyone who doesn't accept your god gets tortured because only good things happen in heaven, and only horrific things happen in hell; after all everyone must die and go to either heaven or hell. Then your god is evil, and for following an evil god you are in fact evil because of that choice.
So yes, you are in fact not a "good" person because you follow the dictates of on evil being, knowingly and willingly.
What makes a person "good"? Standards? Good is subjective. To some, many even, believing that they'll be tortured for all time for your own indifference to human suffering on the basis of religion would rank you as not good (Certainly not conducive to the collective survival of their lifestyle).Actions may speak louder than words, but words do tell. You may claim to love, but remember. Speaking is an action. Beliefs don't make you good.
So are you saying the only way not to suffer, is to accept christianity? or God through Jesus Christ? I like you Jack and you have great intentions my man, but it is a little strong, how your coming on to some of the viewers, I urge you to find better ways to articulate your message.. I AM a good person Jack, as I think your are. Have a good day and stay safe brother.
I'm mostly known as a popper here on youtube, but my biggest love is God. In truth, I'm a Biblical Studies major in Biola University. Even so, what I came here to say is that no matter how Christians present themselves, as long as they take a stand for Christ, I'm really happy. Live for the Lord and present the Gospel with love my fellow agape-tos en Christos :). Bye.
A city is real, God and heaven are up for debate. Would I travel half way around the world to a place that someone told me exists but it isn't on any map apart from a 2,000 year old map drawn by 40 different people. I understand were you're coming from in this video but if the bible is wat you base your beliefs and you determine your actions because of this, then yes your are a bad person. However there are some good teachings in the bible too, some contradictory.
But unlike hitler, He also CREATED humanity. And any time that he has "exteminated" any people he has given them many chances to turn from theyre "wicked" ways... (aka the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the plagues of Egypt) Hes a God of mercy, not a psycho tyrant... (even though he was a genius, but so is Obama, and look how well hes getting along....)
"I brought you into this world, I can take you out" Is this really what you christians think is the perfect moral standard? There's NO evidence that god created humanity, TONS of evidence for evolution. EVEN IF god hand-placed us on earth, he's immoral for killing. Wake up, people.
EXACTLY!!!!! If you worship a leader who punishes people eternally for not loving him, you accept the leader's actions as ok. If you accept the leader's actions as ok, YOU ARE JUST AS BAD!! This isn't a passive process here. everytime you worship him, you're supporting his immoral and unjust "actions".
Well if thats the way you think, then so be it. See, the beauty of this nation is that we can worship as we please without condemnation. HAving said that, its just about impossible for a Muslim, Buddhist, pegan, or any other non christian belief, to practice what they believe without a christian bombarding them with attacks with an up turned nose. BUT it works from the other side as well. So in all, humans are ugly, period. God bless.
2 things: 1st, thank you for not being condescending or hateful; those two things are all too common in discourse such as these; you seem to speak from a place of common respect. second, you seem to be a pius man- so don't be coy. you know exactly the SUFFERING to which you two are referring- be honest. to follow your analogy- it would be like kindly rejecting your offer for citizenship and being informed that your King God will torture me and thinkers-alike henceforth for our choice. no?
hi im a bornagain believer in ireland and i want to say what you said was absolutely excellent im gonna put that in my favs god bless you all the way from ireland.
Belief is not a choice. I cannot choose to believe something that seems absurd to me. If I am created by god, he made me skeptical of him. Thinking that people should be punished for something that is not a choice is what makes you a bad person.
Atheists are bad because they lie, especially to young children. Atheists claim that we all came from yogurt that generated life and that nothing exploded into everything. They fill childrens minds with this fake life without any moral value.
& that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Do you see how empty arguments are when you use rhetorics?
quite frankly arguing with someone who automatically says that they are right and I'm wrong is a debate that is absolutely useless. You don't know what you are talking about. The Bible and evolution don't really have too many conflicts. I personally do not care to know whether or not the earth is old or young because in the Bible it doesn't even stress either to an extent that it even specifically notes either ideas. So you shouldn't even say that evolution has anything to do with the Bible.
hey, don't feed pearls to swine, all they'll do it trample on it.
this guy you're arguing with is not willing to even think about changing his mind. dont waste your time on him. you tried, he rejected. it's his choice. and the ironic thing is, he's the one screwing himself over.
I Feel sorry for you. You will never understand what it is to be free or all gods. We do not fear hell you do. Hell is not real. I know that my mind will die with me. All that we are is our body and our mind. I got in a car accident 2 years ago ,and lost most of my memories.All that I knew of Jesus an god was gone. For a long time I could not even read. If one could say the soul is our memory then on that day my soul was destoried,and a new soul was formed.I hope this helps you to understand.
Your mayor has written, in a book, how long I have to conform and worship him/her. If not, he will come and drag me kicking and screaming and lock me away into a place where a torturer will spend 24 hours a day entertaining me.
The mayor will give me drugs to keep me alive and conscious for a very long time so the torturer has job security.
You will let my family know where I have gone, and threaten them with the same fate.
but entrance into this city is not a choice, i cannot choose to enter this city, because my entrance is based on something i have no control over (what i assess to be true), i cant choose to beleive god is real, i wanna get into this heaven, it sounds pretty sweet, yet somehow i cant get in, no matter how hard i try because i cant believe its there. also, so when i die i get judged, i fail the exam of beleiving in him, why am i damned forever? what if after im dead i am convinced and love him
continued- what if after i die and i realize the error of my ways, im sorry and i want to be with god, is god so petty he wont let me in? if he loves me, and after i die i realize i love him, why would he not let me in? why would he keep us separated eventhough we both want to be together? is he so petty that he cant forgive me for something i had no choice in? that doesnt sound loving, if i love him, but he still wont be with me. this is what i dont understand,why would my suffering be eternal?
There is no evidence of any "city" that you keep referring to. Agreeing that I should burn in hell for eternity for not believing in an invisible man in the sky that you worship does make you a bad person.
If a man set up the paradise city in "Together's" analogy and was somehow going to kill everyone outside the city, then Christians would be willing to assess whether this man was good or bad. But if it's God who sets up the city, they assert or unquestioningly accept that God is good, that God is the yardstick by which goodness is measured, and they never question whether the actions of God described in the Bible are good by average standards, or even by standards within the Bible. It's a mess.
but it doesnt matter how we act or how we treat or speak to other people or how we live our lives now does it? all that matters is that we dont accept jesus and that is why we are going to hell. and if you can life your life and be okay with that then that makes you a douchebag. sorry.
How can it be that God sends all none Christians to hell, but flat out allows his son to help a pagan?
How can it be that God would use these pagans throughout biblical history as his pawns and tools to judge Israel if he doesn't want to associate with them?
It isn't that you're a bad person. You're just delusional. Atheists do not believe your "city" exists. When you tell them that they have a choice between your "city" or something called "hell," consider how insulting that is to what they believe. That if they don't join your illusion, the alternative is eternal suffering. "Join my club or suffer."
This is why he was saying you're a bad person, because you insist that if one doesn't join your exclusive club, that they will suffer.
Plus I'm more then a little concerned with all the baggage that usually comes with it, anti science, apathy to nature, pro end of the world, stuff that isn't helping the world.
No Jack, the suffering is because your God is a jealous evil Tyrant. if he really wanted to he could let "good" people into the city, instead he chooses to let sheep in regardless if they are good or not. Your god is an asshole.
According to you, you are not a good person. You failed the "Are you a good person?" test.
What SuperFlyNB is saying is in response to all Christians who tell us what your bible, and you, say directly to us. That we are condemned to hell for not believing. Period. Full Stop. Fini.
Maybe you'remissing eh point, jack. I mean, if you look at suicide bommers, they have also been sent by their god to do good deeds based on their own subjectivity. To them they are cleansing the world. You could argue that they are far more dedicated believers than you are.
you've never been to the city of god so how could you know of its existence, there would be physical evidence, you have NO physical evidence of this place,oh btw you always seem to be so angry at people & tend to show a general melancholy in your videos, if religion is good, why aren't you happy? i know this is beside the point but 90% of your videos are directed at atheists which make up a small demographic, maybe spend your time doing something which is actually productive, like charity work.
heh well christians will claim the physiical evidence is the bible...and the crazier ones will say the proof is the empty tomb :> Though would that be nonephyscal since it's empty?
casting wisdom and logic before fools is a futile cause
despite your rationality and authenticity,
some people do not believe or accept simply because they do not want to despite what they claim
anywho evolution is silly in every aspect, you know that; i know that; most ppl know that but most will also sweep what they know under the rug because it is inconvenient
I have learnt the facts ! I have been learning the facts since 1966; there is no evidence in the fossil record for evolution: Darwin did not see any. (he hoped one day for some) 150 years later any honest evolutionist does not see any, and looks elsewhere. If there is so much evidence for evolution, why is there so much rancour with the likes of Dawkins. Is it not because so many scientists are going over to "Intelligent Design "? Darwin is dead; Long live The Creator !!!
But I love my city what wrong with the City that All my ancestors lived in. Are all The People born in the 'Wrong' Going to suffer for eternity. There Are even those that Say your city is Wrong.
How do you know your City is the Only Good city? Why should I Buy a Used car from you?
The only thing you have to do for eternal happiness is accept the idea of a purple teapot with elven ears orbiting the planet of saturn. For it is written in a book long lost to us, that this teapot will come to earth and save us from our selves.
However, if you dont believe you will be punished.
Ah but in gods presents perfection is a gift as the air you breath. Here on earth nobody but Jesus Christ was perfect...he demonstrated to us the standard god commands us to strive for and in doing so we please god thus we are forgiven for our many failures as sinners. Its really that simple. God Bless
ANd no one in heaven even by the Christian belief will be perfect, your all still sinners, and no god can change that. You kill someone, some god forgiving you isn't going to change anything, the person you killed is still dead, you've changed nothing, but taken the idea of responsability and removed it. We are responsible for our actions, and no god can change them or make them right, the best that one can do is try to make ammends some how himself, not ask god to forgive them..
Just a quick tip for you, saying 'God Bless' to an atheist can be considered quite offensive. Better off taking a tip from Jack and sticking with a more neutral, much more pleasant 'peace be with you' or something along those lines if you have to say anything at all. Thanks.
Why should I not say god bless ? because an atheist might find it offensive... Jesus Christ and the things he said was very offensive to many people but sometimes the truth hurts. I'm not going to let satan's spirit persuade me to stop saying god bless no matter what he may convince the world of how its offensive..of course it is offensive....to satan. many people don't realize how subtle he can be to lead people away from Christ one little thing at a time. Its the same thing with bc and bce
"Why should I not say god bless ? because an atheist might find it offensive..." You just answered your own question. You are offending my beliefs and sensibilities. Nothing to do with Satan or whatever, just a common courtesy that you should extend to people, that's all. Say God bless all you want to your fellow believers but try to remember that not everyone subscribes to your belief.
i am not going to stop saying shut the fuck up bitch because people find it offensive. i am not going to let Isis spread her evil influence on me and force me into conformity of this sinful human culture that she has created. many people don't realize how Isis attempts to lead us away from the teachings of horus and away from our eternal afterlife in the stars.
=D there now we have an equally valid arguement based on the same premise.
That's great Keep believing whatever you want that's the beauty of it all..god gave us choice. He doesn't force us to love him but at the same time he will not allow sin to continue forever. Hell is where gods spirit does not dwell..Jesus experience this on the cross when he said "my god my god why have you forsaken me" imagine spending your eternity crying that out and knowing that you have nobody to blame but yourself. Jesus said "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me
Yeah.....your still a "Sinner" all the things you did are still on your head, your not forgiven for anything, all the harm you have caused is still your responsability, pretending some god's forgiveness is all you need is just BS. It's a copout of responsability, you don't want to be held responsible for your own actions.
yeah...were judgemental, Christians are the ones claiming to know everything and saying that not believing your fairy tale will send us to hell. And then make lame excuses for why it's not true. the entire idea of hell is just stupid, it rewards based on blind faith rather then how you act.
We can drop the word fundamentalist if you wish, but "judgemental"? Yes, absolutely. Everyone gets irritated once in a while, that's human nature. But non stop perpetually angry personal attacks, hostility and hatred, whether coming from Westboro Baptist or Youtube Atheists, gets really old after a while. What is the point of all of this? Do these arguments actually get anywhere? I don't think so. I don't know how or why Jack puts up with it. Who needs this in their life?
I'm sure I'm not the only one who misses the old days when there used to be courteous, respectful dialogue between christians and atheists on youtube. Meaningful discussion about ideas rather than what we see today.
A belief system gets only as much respect as it deserves, should we be respectful to KKK and those that think that people should be treated like scum or killed because of the colour of their skin or something like that?
I see no reason to respect a belief system that is intrinsicly immoral, and lacks any sense of justice, or caring for humanity. And these kind of things should be discussed, it's time to stop babying destructive wrong beliefs, Christians wouldn't for things they disagree with.
I agree, to an extent. However, regarding "Do these arguments actually get anywhere?", would you say that calm discourse does? I've talked to enough religonists over the years to realise that reason is very rarely productive. On the other hand, ridicule is a more dramatic invitation to self-examination than calm reasoning (which is more easily ignored).
That said, aggressive language is not the best policy, causic humour on the other hand can be very effective.
wolfwing: Do you view the torture and death of Jesus Christ as being immoral? Christianity is based on the death and resurrection of Christ. What is it about those events which you find to be immoral? It was immoral in the sense that it certainly was not fair to Christ, that is for sure. He did no wrong. He took the punishment we deserved. Now you can say you don't believe it, fine, that is your choice. I'm just asking what is it that you find to be immoral?
No no, sorry if I put that wrong. I don't think that part is any more immoral then killing anyone for wrong reasons. If I had lived at that time, and Jesus had existed, then I would have a moral obligation to try to stop it.
I'm refering to the immorality of, this idea that no good deed lets you into heaven, but no evil bad horrible deed keeps you out, if you repent at the last moment. The idea that someone can absolve us for the wrongs we have done, instead of being responsible.
Its Immoral that With out Belief in a Blood Sacrifice of God to for God to forgive and save of from being born Condemed to eternal hell that is Immoral.
Its the core of Christianity thats Immoral.
Would a perfect Loving god Plan for a world where he Knowing sends most Souls to eternal Hell?
At least you're succeeding to demonstrate what is wrong with christianity.
It's not just the thoughts that you hold, it's the fact you choose to support an idea that is immoral to the extreme. If you'd support any other idea that is equally disgusting, you'd not be considered a good person.
If you were a nazi, even if you live a good life, you didn't hurt anyone, you'd still not be a good person, because you support the idea Jews should die.
Same with your religion. Atheists should suffer...
This is the whole point. Once you believe your god will make people suffer for not having the same ideas as you, and you agree with this immoral act, you are by definition not a good person.
I don't hear you saying, my god should not do this, you accept and therefore approve of sending people to hell... That makes you immoral.
Good way of putting it. If a nazi is tells you "there is this a glorious nation, and in order to be accepted in it, you must bow down to a cruel dictator", he would be considered a bad person. The scenario is not all that different.
Im sure this must have come up before, but in your opinion i am going to hell because i don't believe in god but surely god must have made me not believe in god? So god is punishing me for being the way he made me?
Thats my biggest problem with this, im sure this must have been said before by somebody and answered already.
Yes but an earthly judge has not made me! This is my point.
Let me put it another way, i make a vase, i then paint it blue, i then procede to smash the vase up for being blue which is a colour i do not like.
It makes no sense to me. I was hoping for some sort of explanation of why this is the case, i am sure there must be some christian out there who believes they know the reason.
ElroyHarveyYou seem to have fallen into the error of believing that God has made mankind in their present condition. God made man perfect and the pinnacle of His Creation: man chose rather to believe the lie of Satan and so was cursed along with the world that was made for his benefit. Romans 9 says Gods makes 1 vessel unto honour,and another unto dishonour: this does not mean God is responsible for the sin and corruption in the vessel made for destruction,only for the good in the other.
Yeah, all thats a load of BS, if there was no disease why do we have a perfectly functioning imune system? Did god make that before hand knowing we fail? Or did he give it to us after we failed? Why are there so many disign stupidities in the human body that wouldn't have been formed by sin. OUr apendix wich has virtually no use, other then to kill some of us off, tonsils, a human eye with a blind spot? A back that causes problems due to it being made to walk on all fours, and so on.
(2) ElroyHarvey. God could have made all mankind into vessels of destruction: he never provided salvation for the Devil and all the fallen angels. As the farmer is not responsible for the spring he channels for irrigation, or the authorities who place barriers to stop the destruction of the sea; so God is not responsible for the fountain and sea of mans corruption. God puts in place laws and restraints of various types to channel man away from the self destruct button, if He so chooses.
I don't know why people hate on Jack. He clearly has a lot of front temporal lobe activity and feels profoundly religious. No amount of argument is going to change that feeling. It doesn't mean he is a nasty or insincere guy though.
If god is unjust, it doesn't make Jack evil for supporting god. ALL morality MUST have some utilitarian features. Since Jack's god is omnipotent & presumably unwavering on this heaven hell "thingie", to oppose god would have no upside. Opposition should be considered an act of evil to a true believer, EVEN IF GOD IS EVIL! The reason such action is typically considered noble is negated by the presumptive powers of Jack's god i.e., when absolutes are involved the rules of morality must change.
I didn't say it made him evil, though I would argue it would make him immmoral. Would we consider someone that backed up a evil dictator on earth a good person? Were those that accepted hitlers way because they might die if they refused good people or wrong?
And tehre are no absolutes, if Jack's god doesn't exist, then he is just a blind person following a evil doctrine, all the things that he believes that are immoral become meaningless if there is no god, and questionable if there is.
The analogy between backing a evil dictator as compared to an unwavering, omnipotent and evil god is invalid. It is not necessarily immoral to back an unwavering, omnipotent and evil god. In fact doing so IS MORAL and justified because doing so saves people from eternal hell. Not backing god does no good, in fact it may lead to more individuals going to hell. All the moral reasons to oppose evil disappear when absolutes such as "unwavering" and "omnipotent" are part of the equation.
So this video is all about the city analogy, which itself is BS. SFNB's video was not about wanting to get into paradise but about being damned for all eternity, which cannot be conveyed simply with the a paradise city analogy. If the analogy were to grasp the situation of eternal hell vs paradise in the afterlife, which atheists generally don't believe in in the first place, there would have to an element of being stranded on a desert and struggling for life, because the hell vs paradise...
...choice is more like the choice between life and death. So the better interpretation is either trust a book or die in an unknown desert. And if TFP truly believes one should die for not believing a book, it would be perfectly logical to assume that he is not a good person.
Also, if you just appeared to someone and said: if you want to go to a paradise city, all you have to do is believe a book, the answer would probably be more like: Jack, youre not a BAD person.
When I was a christian I would have been confused also.
But when you feel that you are going to go to heaven... and that I am going to go to HELL if I continue to be myself........... THAT feels VERY condescending!
It .... in a way.... says :
"I'm better than you"
"I'm smarter than you"
"I'm more worthy than you"
"I pity you"
and you might as well be saying:
"You are a filthy piece of shit.... unless you believe what I believe...."
Exactly, it's a bit of a ego trip, it makes one feel better then others because you get eternity in heaven and they don't, it's a pretty easy thing to get with these beliefs.
It is absolutely irrelivant how Jack percieves gods actions and rules!
Jack doesn't make the rules. If Jack believes that the rules are immutable (no matter how unfair) then Jack actions are those of a good person. WHY? because god is omnipotent, for Jack to act otherwise may cause great harm. If Jack supported Hitler that would be an evil act, but since god cannot be stopped, as Hitler was, to fail to act in the manner in which Jack is acting, would be evil!
Except it's more like this, the artist knows everything he is omniscient, so he knows the past present and the future, and he knows when he creates the world of clay dolls, that he is dooming many to eternal suffering, a sadistic act, he knows he is creating us with original sin, why would a loving god want to hurt anything? It makes no sense.
Can anyone say straw man? I never chose to not believe in god. I REALIZED that I don't believe in god. I am simply unconvinced of the existence of god.
I remember TAA asking the atheists in his audience a long time ago "If you could go back to believing in god, would you?" I remember one saying she wishes that she could still believe.
Now why would she have the desire to believe yet not believe if she could believe? Your argument is completely invalid.
Exactly, I have no reason to believe, and quiet honestly the whole idea of hell sounds more like a con job, scare someone into believing soimething they wouldn't normally.
Lets not forget that if Jesus exists, he probably isn't stupid enough to fall for someone worshipping him just in case.
The point he was making is that if you do not judge a deity, who would condemn those who do not believe in his improbable existence without absolute evidence to eternal unhappiness and/or torture, as being an evil entity and if you support the behavior of an evil entity or work in the service of an evil that makes you evil yourself and, therefore, not a good person. I am inclined to agree with that line of reasoning.
While you may see your efforts to help people avoid the wrath of the evil entity as being an act of goodness, lending your support to evil in any way makes you evil, too. If everyone universally rejected his plan what would your god do then? Would he send us all to hell leaving himself, yet again, alone in the universe?
He clearly does not want that. He wants to be surrounded by a bunch of ego inflating yes men (with free will LOL!). Perhaps to save himself from his own miserable fate without mankind, he would come up with a better plan. Send him back to the drawing board if you really do believe in him. If you dont really believe in him, let this religion fade into obscurity like most human religions have done. Frankly, it isnt one of the better ones.
And, let me ask you this, Jack. Let's say you exclude torture as being a part of being in hell. Would you, then, want to spend eternity in the companionship of an evil entity? I certainly would not.
Another note. some christians say that god sends the person to hell, and some christians say that hell is a consequence of you actions. One is a threat, and one is a warning. You really need to get your position on that articulated in a clear manner first, otherwise you may be (which it appears) to be arguing past each other. just my opinion
Well to be honest, there really is no difference, god still sets the rules, and still arbitrarily decides that some don't get punished for eternity others do. It still comes down to, worship Jesus, or burn for eternity in both cases. God set the rules about sin and such, of course his forgiveness is meaningless, I go out and kill someone, his forgiving me for doing it doesn't mean jack ****, because the person is still dead, he's done nothing.
Well of course. But unless that is first understood (which position he thinks is true), argueing against it as being unjust to a person who thinks its mere consweunce will get one no where. |If Jack thinks its consequence and makes that clear, then you argue against that . Neither one is true in my opinion, but it helps when communicating to be specific and clear on these things.
That Jack is "evil" does seem a very dubious statement.
However, the concept that Jack and other Christians put forward as their "God," is a belief system of highly dubious morality. "Either worship me and live in paradise forever, of burn in the pits of Hell forever. Your choice, which I've already knew before you were even created." With an god like that, who needs a devil?
According to you (by which I mean christians in general) none of us are good people. You take great pleasure in informing us that we will suffer for all eternity. You go to great pains to point out that it is a wonderful thing that we will suffer in this way.
You're basically complaining because the same accusation has been returned to you with better justification.
Btw, we do not CHOOSE not to believe in your god, in exactly the same way that you do not choose not to believe in anasi or zeus.
All humans are born in sin and deserve eternal hellfire including babies and all the Jews that were tortured and murder by Hitler. Christian theology is repulsive and people that ascribe to it are morally bankrupt.
I bet most of the people who watch your stupid videos are atheist!
theinfobro 2 months ago in playlist More videos from TogetherForPeace
He only said that he would think your a bad person for thinking that he will burn in hell for all eternity, didn't say all atheists (going by the quote)! You beat the sh*t out of a dog for humping yours, that makes you a bad person. You should now that's actually normal through other species!
theinfobro 2 months ago in playlist More videos from TogetherForPeace
You are a Ambassador of Dog Toturing , you are not a good person. What about the suffering of that poodle you tortured , just because it boned your dog ? Your dog was not RAPED , she wanted it, she called him over, ask all your laughing neighbours. No matter what you do now , you will go to HELL .
MyBarry2009 5 months ago
My problem with the you choose hell defense is that it misrepresents hell as a negative punishment (withholding something good) which may be just, as you aren't obligated to give blessings to someone who doesn't want them, however Hell is really a positive punishment (giving something bad) it also assumes an Arminian view of soteriology, when I am convinced that at least some of the Bible teaches predestination
redcommander27 8 months ago
What a nice exit plan innit? To stand and be judged for your actions and thoughts by a god who supposedly created EVERYTHING, your soul, your body (well, Adam and Eve, in the case of Christianity), your past, the present, everybody's future, time itself (again, everything).
I'm still trying to "get" how it is that anyone is even responsible for anything they ultimately do. Free will, sure, but it supposedly fits into this god's "Divine Plan" or whatever. There's no escaping destiny, right?
GabSte1989 9 months ago
fuck god
ImTheKobold 10 months ago
the atheist is right.
GodsDontExist 10 months ago
Im am enraged by the idea that you have a voice to even argue your point ,shut up and fuck your city you never saw and fuck your condescending attitude .
You condoning torture make you repulsive to me ,i feel ill being here i have to go.
FrankaDith 1 year ago
Again if your child didn't want to watch Barney the dinosaur and you told your child,it a great show and still your child wanted to watch Dora instead ,how long would you hold your Child's hands on the stove burner? or would you instead light all four and roast your child ,but never let your child die from burns ,how sick would that be ,if you try to bring us to a god like that ,you really are a horrible person a would joint Satan and try to overthrow this sadistic child killer you call God.
FrankaDith 1 year ago
You are hurt because a man does not agree with you while the stakes are immensely higher ,if God made everything would it be necessary to go in the city and why do we have to thank a God before we see this city to get in and would this God build a hell of endless torture for these who decide not to thank him before seeing.
If your feeling are hurt ,dont you think it would be immensely more painful to be tortured for ever? think about it (FOREVER TORTURED) where do i signed up?
FrankaDith 1 year ago
Pretty unfair fore some people to go to hell when they have never heard of Jesus and Jave. Don´t you think?
retroHC 1 year ago
It's simple, if you believe that human beings deserve to be punished for eternity because of the actions of one of our ancestors, you are a bad person, as in, you are unethical.
cplusplusish 1 year ago
As a little thought excercise, replace the god in this hypothetical situation with a powerful dictatorship whom you have absolutely no conceivable hope of overthrowing. That dictatorship operates a utopian city that is perfect in every way. In order to be allowed entry into this city you must agree to unconditionally love and obey the dictatorship. On top of that, anyone outside of the city will be tortured and set on fire.
Now argue how being their ambassador makes you a good person.
rabidsi 1 year ago
No, the suffering is NOT because you have decided you don't want to be in the city.
The suffering is because GOD has decided that if you don't want to be in the city, you will suffer.
This is the crux of the argument. It's why as even if there was any kind of conclusive proof (which there is not) of the god that your religion proposes, my moral code would REQUIRE me, in theory, to actively oppose that god.
rabidsi 1 year ago
I respect an atheist like this because he is sincere with his conscience and don't bullie nobody, as fanatic believers does.
Salaminguana 1 year ago
It isn't so much that believing in a god of judgement makes you a bad person, what makes most christians bad is that they believe in a god who is willing to dole out the WORST possible punishment for the most minor infraction. Example: if I happened to be born in say...Pakistan, and Islam is what I knew...I go to hell for simply being misguided, for not knowing the truth...whatever. Burn forever if you don't believe in me bullshit. That's part of why I'm an atheist.
Xiao6996 1 year ago
i think you are probably moral, but i think your thinking is very stupid
blazereef 1 year ago
"Am I not a good person because I believe that God will judge people?"
No.....but if you believe it is just (infinite punishment for finite "crimes", then in m opinion, that would make you not a good person.
SiriusMined 1 year ago
"I dont think you deserve it, god does"
If you agree with the scripture then you think he is a bad person, there is no wiggle room there if you accept Gods word. If you dont, then you are at odds with scriptures morality, which of course is god morality, being the true word of god.
You have to believe it or you are a heretic.
Just admit that you think he deserves it and we can all go home.
LouisPlume 1 year ago
I would respond by asking to see this city to make sure it's real. Because other people are offering perfect, mutually-exclusive cities, cities.
kyledavidbyron 1 year ago
I wonder why it is important for you to have other people confirm or deny whether they think you are a good person?
soulbern 1 year ago
I dunno if you're a good person or not, you seem like a good person. Having your entire country (pretty much) believing in Christianity could be a little intimidating, and I can see how people just want to join the crowd.
You can think I'm going to a bad place after I die if you want, I don't care. But don't call me a bad person either, and we'll co-exist peacefully.
bp56789 1 year ago
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wizen2002 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
We do not care what you believe or don't believe.
We, personally, just don't worship a god and don't believe he exists.
Now, whatever the atheist says is in no way a resemblance how atheists think of christians, it's his personal opinion.
Also, good is entirely subjective, what one sees as good, is evil in another person's opinion.
88gertjan88 1 year ago
We do not care what you believe or don't believe.
We, personally, just don't worship a god and don't believe he exists.
Now, whatever the atheist says is in no way a resemblance how atheists think of christians, it's his personal opinion.
Also, good is entirely subjective, what one sees as good, is evil in another person's opinion.
88gertjan88 1 year ago
If your god has created only three realms, earth, heaven, and hell; and everyone who doesn't accept your god gets tortured because only good things happen in heaven, and only horrific things happen in hell; after all everyone must die and go to either heaven or hell. Then your god is evil, and for following an evil god you are in fact evil because of that choice.
So yes, you are in fact not a "good" person because you follow the dictates of on evil being, knowingly and willingly.
13shadowwolf 2 years ago
Of course that is operating under the assumption that the being in question exists.
13shadowwolf 2 years ago
Great example!
Coolguy111606 2 years ago
What makes a person "good"? Standards? Good is subjective. To some, many even, believing that they'll be tortured for all time for your own indifference to human suffering on the basis of religion would rank you as not good (Certainly not conducive to the collective survival of their lifestyle).Actions may speak louder than words, but words do tell. You may claim to love, but remember. Speaking is an action. Beliefs don't make you good.
UTubeBrowzer 2 years ago
So are you saying the only way not to suffer, is to accept christianity? or God through Jesus Christ? I like you Jack and you have great intentions my man, but it is a little strong, how your coming on to some of the viewers, I urge you to find better ways to articulate your message.. I AM a good person Jack, as I think your are. Have a good day and stay safe brother.
JohnThePheonix 2 years ago
You seem a good person to me. (I'm an atheist :P)
Katicsvi 2 years ago
oh, and the vid: narcissism ftl
skwiskar664 2 years ago
@ghghes
faulty assumption.. plain and simple
and if u dont know these 'big' words, think about it, give up, then consult a dictionary.
logic fail
skwiskar664 2 years ago
Unbelief is not the only, greatest sin committed, people. Why won't you understand that? It is A sin.
ghghes 2 years ago
Duh, 'the city' doesn't exist silly,except in creatardland.
Rockster969 2 years ago
I'm mostly known as a popper here on youtube, but my biggest love is God. In truth, I'm a Biblical Studies major in Biola University. Even so, what I came here to say is that no matter how Christians present themselves, as long as they take a stand for Christ, I'm really happy. Live for the Lord and present the Gospel with love my fellow agape-tos en Christos :). Bye.
poppingseonghoon 2 years ago
A city is real, God and heaven are up for debate. Would I travel half way around the world to a place that someone told me exists but it isn't on any map apart from a 2,000 year old map drawn by 40 different people. I understand were you're coming from in this video but if the bible is wat you base your beliefs and you determine your actions because of this, then yes your are a bad person. However there are some good teachings in the bible too, some contradictory.
fredjk351 2 years ago
You see, God is kind of like Hitler. He runs around exterminating people, and people like you support him. Yes, that makes you a bad person.
200609 2 years ago
But unlike hitler, He also CREATED humanity. And any time that he has "exteminated" any people he has given them many chances to turn from theyre "wicked" ways... (aka the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the plagues of Egypt) Hes a God of mercy, not a psycho tyrant... (even though he was a genius, but so is Obama, and look how well hes getting along....)
Sweatshopmedia 2 years ago
"I brought you into this world, I can take you out" Is this really what you christians think is the perfect moral standard? There's NO evidence that god created humanity, TONS of evidence for evolution. EVEN IF god hand-placed us on earth, he's immoral for killing. Wake up, people.
TBucker 2 years ago
EXACTLY!!!!! If you worship a leader who punishes people eternally for not loving him, you accept the leader's actions as ok. If you accept the leader's actions as ok, YOU ARE JUST AS BAD!! This isn't a passive process here. everytime you worship him, you're supporting his immoral and unjust "actions".
TBucker 2 years ago
Well if thats the way you think, then so be it. See, the beauty of this nation is that we can worship as we please without condemnation. HAving said that, its just about impossible for a Muslim, Buddhist, pegan, or any other non christian belief, to practice what they believe without a christian bombarding them with attacks with an up turned nose. BUT it works from the other side as well. So in all, humans are ugly, period. God bless.
Sweatshopmedia 2 years ago
2 things: 1st, thank you for not being condescending or hateful; those two things are all too common in discourse such as these; you seem to speak from a place of common respect. second, you seem to be a pius man- so don't be coy. you know exactly the SUFFERING to which you two are referring- be honest. to follow your analogy- it would be like kindly rejecting your offer for citizenship and being informed that your King God will torture me and thinkers-alike henceforth for our choice. no?
superzerox1 2 years ago
hi im a bornagain believer in ireland and i want to say what you said was absolutely excellent im gonna put that in my favs god bless you all the way from ireland.
laura686979 2 years ago
Belief is not a choice. I cannot choose to believe something that seems absurd to me. If I am created by god, he made me skeptical of him. Thinking that people should be punished for something that is not a choice is what makes you a bad person.
apaulo91 2 years ago
Comment removed
fungku777 2 years ago
Theists are bad people because they are liars. "god exists" & "heaven is real" are the 2 most common ones.
They also fill the minds of children with their corrupt thoughts of invisible wizards who live on clouds.
& that's just the tip of the iceberg.
paspax 2 years ago
Atheists are bad because they lie, especially to young children. Atheists claim that we all came from yogurt that generated life and that nothing exploded into everything. They fill childrens minds with this fake life without any moral value.
& that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Do you see how empty arguments are when you use rhetorics?
SpartanOstrich15 2 years ago
SpartanOstrich15 .
Thanks for that. That was very good satire.
paspax 2 years ago
When an Atheist tells their child about evolution they are telling the truth.
When a theist tells their children that the bible (etc) is true, they are lying.
I didn't use any rhetoric. You on the other hand, lied.
Just thought I'd better clarify that.
paspax 2 years ago
quite frankly arguing with someone who automatically says that they are right and I'm wrong is a debate that is absolutely useless. You don't know what you are talking about. The Bible and evolution don't really have too many conflicts. I personally do not care to know whether or not the earth is old or young because in the Bible it doesn't even stress either to an extent that it even specifically notes either ideas. So you shouldn't even say that evolution has anything to do with the Bible.
SpartanOstrich15 2 years ago
"So you shouldn't even say that evolution has anything to do with the Bible. "
When did I do that??... I didn't.
"quite frankly arguing with someone who automatically says that they are right and I'm wrong is a debate that is absolutely useless."
You're right. The delusion of theists is difficult to eradicate.
paspax 2 years ago
"When an Atheist tells their child about evolution they are telling the truth.
When a theist tells their children that the bible (etc) is true, they are lying."
You compared evolution towards the Bible in your analogy.
And broseph, please. The delusion of theists, do you know how to argue without using a rhetoric? At all? Evidently I'm wasting my time.
SpartanOstrich15 2 years ago
"You compared evolution towards the Bible in your analogy. "
Did I? I'm not seeing it.
"do you know how to argue without using a rhetoric? "
It seems that you have a very broad definition of rhetoric. I have simply made factual statements.
paspax 2 years ago
hey, don't feed pearls to swine, all they'll do it trample on it.
this guy you're arguing with is not willing to even think about changing his mind. dont waste your time on him. you tried, he rejected. it's his choice. and the ironic thing is, he's the one screwing himself over.
aiG0oChamNa 2 years ago
Comment removed
GarlandPoison 2 years ago
no you are not a good person because you use God to judge people, in his name. That's exactly why you are a bad person.
OvanAlexander 2 years ago
I Feel sorry for you. You will never understand what it is to be free or all gods. We do not fear hell you do. Hell is not real. I know that my mind will die with me. All that we are is our body and our mind. I got in a car accident 2 years ago ,and lost most of my memories.All that I knew of Jesus an god was gone. For a long time I could not even read. If one could say the soul is our memory then on that day my soul was destoried,and a new soul was formed.I hope this helps you to understand.
jackmacshack 2 years ago
In what way is God's message clear to you? Does he speak to you with a voice only you hear?
BMS1974 2 years ago
Just because the radio is broken or malfunctioning, doesn't mean there is no signal.
Jestepher 2 years ago
You are so good at dodging the point and creating the illusion that you have infac answered it. You should become a magician =p
ragnarok297 2 years ago
You look like Agent Smith from The Matrix.
Meatwad1102 2 years ago
I think I can complete the analogy.
Your mayor has written, in a book, how long I have to conform and worship him/her. If not, he will come and drag me kicking and screaming and lock me away into a place where a torturer will spend 24 hours a day entertaining me.
The mayor will give me drugs to keep me alive and conscious for a very long time so the torturer has job security.
You will let my family know where I have gone, and threaten them with the same fate.
What a great city to grow up in.
x246869 2 years ago
but entrance into this city is not a choice, i cannot choose to enter this city, because my entrance is based on something i have no control over (what i assess to be true), i cant choose to beleive god is real, i wanna get into this heaven, it sounds pretty sweet, yet somehow i cant get in, no matter how hard i try because i cant believe its there. also, so when i die i get judged, i fail the exam of beleiving in him, why am i damned forever? what if after im dead i am convinced and love him
FireStorm821 2 years ago
continued- what if after i die and i realize the error of my ways, im sorry and i want to be with god, is god so petty he wont let me in? if he loves me, and after i die i realize i love him, why would he not let me in? why would he keep us separated eventhough we both want to be together? is he so petty that he cant forgive me for something i had no choice in? that doesnt sound loving, if i love him, but he still wont be with me. this is what i dont understand,why would my suffering be eternal?
FireStorm821 2 years ago
There is no evidence of any "city" that you keep referring to. Agreeing that I should burn in hell for eternity for not believing in an invisible man in the sky that you worship does make you a bad person.
rx7lover86 2 years ago
If a man set up the paradise city in "Together's" analogy and was somehow going to kill everyone outside the city, then Christians would be willing to assess whether this man was good or bad. But if it's God who sets up the city, they assert or unquestioningly accept that God is good, that God is the yardstick by which goodness is measured, and they never question whether the actions of God described in the Bible are good by average standards, or even by standards within the Bible. It's a mess.
deidzoeb 2 years ago
If you believe that it's all right to greatly punish someone because they don't share your beliefs, then yes you are not a "good" person.
qanazir 2 years ago
but it doesnt matter how we act or how we treat or speak to other people or how we live our lives now does it? all that matters is that we dont accept jesus and that is why we are going to hell. and if you can life your life and be okay with that then that makes you a douchebag. sorry.
TuplaP 2 years ago
How can it be that God sends all none Christians to hell, but flat out allows his son to help a pagan?
How can it be that God would use these pagans throughout biblical history as his pawns and tools to judge Israel if he doesn't want to associate with them?
Gormanmod 2 years ago
If a person do not believes, does not mean he will not enter into the city, he can be judged by the facts of his soul.
VyckRo 2 years ago
worst metaphor ever.
niceonetom 2 years ago
Your so monotone it made my ears bleed
NewFoundAnima 2 years ago
actually I think they beleive you don't exist...
DALSU 2 years ago
It isn't that you're a bad person. You're just delusional. Atheists do not believe your "city" exists. When you tell them that they have a choice between your "city" or something called "hell," consider how insulting that is to what they believe. That if they don't join your illusion, the alternative is eternal suffering. "Join my club or suffer."
This is why he was saying you're a bad person, because you insist that if one doesn't join your exclusive club, that they will suffer.
alienamnesiac 2 years ago
Plus I'm more then a little concerned with all the baggage that usually comes with it, anti science, apathy to nature, pro end of the world, stuff that isn't helping the world.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
No Jack, the suffering is because your God is a jealous evil Tyrant. if he really wanted to he could let "good" people into the city, instead he chooses to let sheep in regardless if they are good or not. Your god is an asshole.
rjestin 2 years ago
According to you, you are not a good person. You failed the "Are you a good person?" test.
What SuperFlyNB is saying is in response to all Christians who tell us what your bible, and you, say directly to us. That we are condemned to hell for not believing. Period. Full Stop. Fini.
Are you that person?
RyuDarragh 2 years ago
Maybe you'remissing eh point, jack. I mean, if you look at suicide bommers, they have also been sent by their god to do good deeds based on their own subjectivity. To them they are cleansing the world. You could argue that they are far more dedicated believers than you are.
Domzdream 2 years ago
you've never been to the city of god so how could you know of its existence, there would be physical evidence, you have NO physical evidence of this place,oh btw you always seem to be so angry at people & tend to show a general melancholy in your videos, if religion is good, why aren't you happy? i know this is beside the point but 90% of your videos are directed at atheists which make up a small demographic, maybe spend your time doing something which is actually productive, like charity work.
caseisclosed94 2 years ago
heh well christians will claim the physiical evidence is the bible...and the crazier ones will say the proof is the empty tomb :> Though would that be nonephyscal since it's empty?
wolfwing1 2 years ago
well said
sgtOOX 2 years ago
There's a big difference between bad person and misguided person.
ubergossen 2 years ago
TheNakedAtheist
Jesus Christ woke me up long ago and clothed me with Himself. Perhaps it is time He woke you up and covered up your nakedness. Isaiah 61 : 10-11
Denbighcastle 2 years ago
Why is he ashamed of the human form? Considering all the problems there is with it, it's understandable.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
casting wisdom and logic before fools is a futile cause
despite your rationality and authenticity,
some people do not believe or accept simply because they do not want to despite what they claim
anywho evolution is silly in every aspect, you know that; i know that; most ppl know that but most will also sweep what they know under the rug because it is inconvenient
sgtOOX 2 years ago
Wolfwing
I have learnt the facts ! I have been learning the facts since 1966; there is no evidence in the fossil record for evolution: Darwin did not see any. (he hoped one day for some) 150 years later any honest evolutionist does not see any, and looks elsewhere. If there is so much evidence for evolution, why is there so much rancour with the likes of Dawkins. Is it not because so many scientists are going over to "Intelligent Design "? Darwin is dead; Long live The Creator !!!
Denbighcastle 2 years ago
and yes To accept an unjust judgment makes you a bad person.
alianchild 2 years ago
No, we have not decided to suffer. your "god" has decided that and then gives insane requirements for salvation.
alianchild 2 years ago
But I love my city what wrong with the City that All my ancestors lived in. Are all The People born in the 'Wrong' Going to suffer for eternity. There Are even those that Say your city is Wrong.
How do you know your City is the Only Good city? Why should I Buy a Used car from you?
gusb232 2 years ago
What If I never Heard of your city? Like most people thru most of history Haven't.
gusb232 2 years ago
Point is, do you think this set-up is fair? If so, you think that injustice is fair, and that can be an aspect of being a 'bad' person.
Uxoriouswidow 2 years ago
The only thing you have to do for eternal happiness is accept the idea of a purple teapot with elven ears orbiting the planet of saturn. For it is written in a book long lost to us, that this teapot will come to earth and save us from our selves.
However, if you dont believe you will be punished.
TheEvilDetector 2 years ago
Oh by the way, as with GOD the purple teapot doesn't have to exist to exist.
LOL
TheEvilDetector 2 years ago
If only such a city existed, we would all go.
rilo2009 2 years ago
I prefer the city I live in. Perfection is too high a standard to maintain.
mungbeanman 2 years ago
Ah but in gods presents perfection is a gift as the air you breath. Here on earth nobody but Jesus Christ was perfect...he demonstrated to us the standard god commands us to strive for and in doing so we please god thus we are forgiven for our many failures as sinners. Its really that simple. God Bless
souleeze 2 years ago
ANd no one in heaven even by the Christian belief will be perfect, your all still sinners, and no god can change that. You kill someone, some god forgiving you isn't going to change anything, the person you killed is still dead, you've changed nothing, but taken the idea of responsability and removed it. We are responsible for our actions, and no god can change them or make them right, the best that one can do is try to make ammends some how himself, not ask god to forgive them..
wolfwing1 2 years ago
Just a quick tip for you, saying 'God Bless' to an atheist can be considered quite offensive. Better off taking a tip from Jack and sticking with a more neutral, much more pleasant 'peace be with you' or something along those lines if you have to say anything at all. Thanks.
mungbeanman 2 years ago
Why should I not say god bless ? because an atheist might find it offensive... Jesus Christ and the things he said was very offensive to many people but sometimes the truth hurts. I'm not going to let satan's spirit persuade me to stop saying god bless no matter what he may convince the world of how its offensive..of course it is offensive....to satan. many people don't realize how subtle he can be to lead people away from Christ one little thing at a time. Its the same thing with bc and bce
souleeze 2 years ago
"Why should I not say god bless ? because an atheist might find it offensive..." You just answered your own question. You are offending my beliefs and sensibilities. Nothing to do with Satan or whatever, just a common courtesy that you should extend to people, that's all. Say God bless all you want to your fellow believers but try to remember that not everyone subscribes to your belief.
mungbeanman 2 years ago
i am not going to stop saying shut the fuck up bitch because people find it offensive. i am not going to let Isis spread her evil influence on me and force me into conformity of this sinful human culture that she has created. many people don't realize how Isis attempts to lead us away from the teachings of horus and away from our eternal afterlife in the stars.
=D there now we have an equally valid arguement based on the same premise.
greycloud24 2 years ago
That's great Keep believing whatever you want that's the beauty of it all..god gave us choice. He doesn't force us to love him but at the same time he will not allow sin to continue forever. Hell is where gods spirit does not dwell..Jesus experience this on the cross when he said "my god my god why have you forsaken me" imagine spending your eternity crying that out and knowing that you have nobody to blame but yourself. Jesus said "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me
souleeze 2 years ago
Yeah.....your still a "Sinner" all the things you did are still on your head, your not forgiven for anything, all the harm you have caused is still your responsability, pretending some god's forgiveness is all you need is just BS. It's a copout of responsability, you don't want to be held responsible for your own actions.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
thanx
greycloud24 2 years ago
you do realize that i believe in hell as much as you believe in never never land right? it really doesn't worry me in the slightest
greycloud24 2 years ago
Seems there are more and more judgmental fundamentalist atheists on youtube every day.
michelle4jesus 2 years ago
yeah...were judgemental, Christians are the ones claiming to know everything and saying that not believing your fairy tale will send us to hell. And then make lame excuses for why it's not true. the entire idea of hell is just stupid, it rewards based on blind faith rather then how you act.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
lol how exactly can you be a fundementalist atheist. What as an atheist are you following as a fundemental?
TokenDrone 2 years ago
What is a fundementalist atheist? How can there be a gradation of belief to be had about a single belief?!
Uxoriouswidow 2 years ago
We can drop the word fundamentalist if you wish, but "judgemental"? Yes, absolutely. Everyone gets irritated once in a while, that's human nature. But non stop perpetually angry personal attacks, hostility and hatred, whether coming from Westboro Baptist or Youtube Atheists, gets really old after a while. What is the point of all of this? Do these arguments actually get anywhere? I don't think so. I don't know how or why Jack puts up with it. Who needs this in their life?
michelle4jesus 2 years ago
I'm sure I'm not the only one who misses the old days when there used to be courteous, respectful dialogue between christians and atheists on youtube. Meaningful discussion about ideas rather than what we see today.
michelle4jesus 2 years ago
A belief system gets only as much respect as it deserves, should we be respectful to KKK and those that think that people should be treated like scum or killed because of the colour of their skin or something like that?
I see no reason to respect a belief system that is intrinsicly immoral, and lacks any sense of justice, or caring for humanity. And these kind of things should be discussed, it's time to stop babying destructive wrong beliefs, Christians wouldn't for things they disagree with.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
I agree, to an extent. However, regarding "Do these arguments actually get anywhere?", would you say that calm discourse does? I've talked to enough religonists over the years to realise that reason is very rarely productive. On the other hand, ridicule is a more dramatic invitation to self-examination than calm reasoning (which is more easily ignored).
That said, aggressive language is not the best policy, causic humour on the other hand can be very effective.
Uxoriouswidow 2 years ago
Heh Fundementalist Athiest are those that don't shut up and let religious people screw up thei world with their immoral backwards beleifs.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
wolfwing: Do you view the torture and death of Jesus Christ as being immoral? Christianity is based on the death and resurrection of Christ. What is it about those events which you find to be immoral? It was immoral in the sense that it certainly was not fair to Christ, that is for sure. He did no wrong. He took the punishment we deserved. Now you can say you don't believe it, fine, that is your choice. I'm just asking what is it that you find to be immoral?
michelle4jesus 2 years ago
No no, sorry if I put that wrong. I don't think that part is any more immoral then killing anyone for wrong reasons. If I had lived at that time, and Jesus had existed, then I would have a moral obligation to try to stop it.
I'm refering to the immorality of, this idea that no good deed lets you into heaven, but no evil bad horrible deed keeps you out, if you repent at the last moment. The idea that someone can absolve us for the wrongs we have done, instead of being responsible.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
Its Immoral that With out Belief in a Blood Sacrifice of God to for God to forgive and save of from being born Condemed to eternal hell that is Immoral.
Its the core of Christianity thats Immoral.
Would a perfect Loving god Plan for a world where he Knowing sends most Souls to eternal Hell?
gusb232 2 years ago
At least you're succeeding to demonstrate what is wrong with christianity.
It's not just the thoughts that you hold, it's the fact you choose to support an idea that is immoral to the extreme. If you'd support any other idea that is equally disgusting, you'd not be considered a good person.
If you were a nazi, even if you live a good life, you didn't hurt anyone, you'd still not be a good person, because you support the idea Jews should die.
Same with your religion. Atheists should suffer...
Atheistblindchick 2 years ago
This is the whole point. Once you believe your god will make people suffer for not having the same ideas as you, and you agree with this immoral act, you are by definition not a good person.
I don't hear you saying, my god should not do this, you accept and therefore approve of sending people to hell... That makes you immoral.
Atheistblindchick 2 years ago
It's all really a ego trip they want to think that they are right to do such things.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
Jesus' purpose was to reconcile us with our creator, to mend the broken bridge.
The problem many people have is that they do not realize they are separated from God.
People commonly mischaracterize God as immoral or evil but this itself is evidence of the broken bridge, evidence of not knowing Him.
God desiring to reconcile people to Himself is not immoral or evil; the cross of Christ was the greatest expression of Love.
michelle4jesus 2 years ago
umm......no, it wouldnt be such a codex...
abysspo 2 years ago
Good way of putting it. If a nazi is tells you "there is this a glorious nation, and in order to be accepted in it, you must bow down to a cruel dictator", he would be considered a bad person. The scenario is not all that different.
Uxoriouswidow 2 years ago
I agree with you Jack, speaking the truth to him was a good thing to do. Remember, do it in love. overlook offenses
forest51690 2 years ago
Im sure this must have come up before, but in your opinion i am going to hell because i don't believe in god but surely god must have made me not believe in god? So god is punishing me for being the way he made me?
Thats my biggest problem with this, im sure this must have been said before by somebody and answered already.
ElroyHarvey 2 years ago
ElroyHarvey
Try and use that sort of reasoning before an earthly judge, and see how far you will get????
Denbighcastle 2 years ago
Yes but an earthly judge has not made me! This is my point.
Let me put it another way, i make a vase, i then paint it blue, i then procede to smash the vase up for being blue which is a colour i do not like.
It makes no sense to me. I was hoping for some sort of explanation of why this is the case, i am sure there must be some christian out there who believes they know the reason.
Thnx for the reply
ElroyHarvey 2 years ago
ElroyHarveyYou seem to have fallen into the error of believing that God has made mankind in their present condition. God made man perfect and the pinnacle of His Creation: man chose rather to believe the lie of Satan and so was cursed along with the world that was made for his benefit. Romans 9 says Gods makes 1 vessel unto honour,and another unto dishonour: this does not mean God is responsible for the sin and corruption in the vessel made for destruction,only for the good in the other.
Denbighcastle 2 years ago
Yeah, all thats a load of BS, if there was no disease why do we have a perfectly functioning imune system? Did god make that before hand knowing we fail? Or did he give it to us after we failed? Why are there so many disign stupidities in the human body that wouldn't have been formed by sin. OUr apendix wich has virtually no use, other then to kill some of us off, tonsils, a human eye with a blind spot? A back that causes problems due to it being made to walk on all fours, and so on.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
(2) ElroyHarvey. God could have made all mankind into vessels of destruction: he never provided salvation for the Devil and all the fallen angels. As the farmer is not responsible for the spring he channels for irrigation, or the authorities who place barriers to stop the destruction of the sea; so God is not responsible for the fountain and sea of mans corruption. God puts in place laws and restraints of various types to channel man away from the self destruct button, if He so chooses.
Denbighcastle 2 years ago
God bless you Jack for trying to reason with some of the people you do!
Peace brother.
Droptopcadillac 2 years ago
What?
how you think of and judge someone is ALWAYS part of judging whether or not someone is a 'good person'.
flamablesteve 2 years ago
I don't know why people hate on Jack. He clearly has a lot of front temporal lobe activity and feels profoundly religious. No amount of argument is going to change that feeling. It doesn't mean he is a nasty or insincere guy though.
Dangerman5 2 years ago
got a haircut i see
xXBurdmanXx 2 years ago
Answer these question if you can, what happens to all those that never knew about Jesus?
Does someone that believes in Jesus but continues to sin go to heaven?
Do you consider this idea of heaven and hell justice? Where a good person can go to hell, but a evil person can go to heaven?
wolfwing1 2 years ago
If god is unjust, it doesn't make Jack evil for supporting god. ALL morality MUST have some utilitarian features. Since Jack's god is omnipotent & presumably unwavering on this heaven hell "thingie", to oppose god would have no upside. Opposition should be considered an act of evil to a true believer, EVEN IF GOD IS EVIL! The reason such action is typically considered noble is negated by the presumptive powers of Jack's god i.e., when absolutes are involved the rules of morality must change.
premed2 2 years ago
I didn't say it made him evil, though I would argue it would make him immmoral. Would we consider someone that backed up a evil dictator on earth a good person? Were those that accepted hitlers way because they might die if they refused good people or wrong?
And tehre are no absolutes, if Jack's god doesn't exist, then he is just a blind person following a evil doctrine, all the things that he believes that are immoral become meaningless if there is no god, and questionable if there is.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
The analogy between backing a evil dictator as compared to an unwavering, omnipotent and evil god is invalid. It is not necessarily immoral to back an unwavering, omnipotent and evil god. In fact doing so IS MORAL and justified because doing so saves people from eternal hell. Not backing god does no good, in fact it may lead to more individuals going to hell. All the moral reasons to oppose evil disappear when absolutes such as "unwavering" and "omnipotent" are part of the equation.
premed2 2 years ago
So this video is all about the city analogy, which itself is BS. SFNB's video was not about wanting to get into paradise but about being damned for all eternity, which cannot be conveyed simply with the a paradise city analogy. If the analogy were to grasp the situation of eternal hell vs paradise in the afterlife, which atheists generally don't believe in in the first place, there would have to an element of being stranded on a desert and struggling for life, because the hell vs paradise...
Nalsii 2 years ago
...choice is more like the choice between life and death. So the better interpretation is either trust a book or die in an unknown desert. And if TFP truly believes one should die for not believing a book, it would be perfectly logical to assume that he is not a good person.
Also, if you just appeared to someone and said: if you want to go to a paradise city, all you have to do is believe a book, the answer would probably be more like: Jack, youre not a BAD person.
Nalsii 2 years ago
I understand.
When I was a christian I would have been confused also.
But when you feel that you are going to go to heaven... and that I am going to go to HELL if I continue to be myself........... THAT feels VERY condescending!
It .... in a way.... says :
"I'm better than you"
"I'm smarter than you"
"I'm more worthy than you"
"I pity you"
and you might as well be saying:
"You are a filthy piece of shit.... unless you believe what I believe...."
fullygodfullyhuman 2 years ago
Exactly, it's a bit of a ego trip, it makes one feel better then others because you get eternity in heaven and they don't, it's a pretty easy thing to get with these beliefs.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
It is absolutely irrelivant how Jack percieves gods actions and rules!
Jack doesn't make the rules. If Jack believes that the rules are immutable (no matter how unfair) then Jack actions are those of a good person. WHY? because god is omnipotent, for Jack to act otherwise may cause great harm. If Jack supported Hitler that would be an evil act, but since god cannot be stopped, as Hitler was, to fail to act in the manner in which Jack is acting, would be evil!
Pease THINK about this.
premed2 2 years ago
I watched your video with interest Jack but to reject Zeus and Juno seems rather foolish! :(
thruthem 2 years ago
For those of not certain faith, the analogy comes off as this:
World is a nuclear wasteland. People live in a probationary clean zone around the city. Two walls, one around "city" one around clean zone.
Athiest/Agnostic/Other Faith: Before we bow down to your god, can we see him?
Believer: Here's a book and I say he exists.
AAO: How do we know it isn't also a wasteland on the inside?
Believer: I say so, and so does this book my G-g-father wrote by what god told him. So do as I say now.
GideonWells 2 years ago
What he's trying to say is that he doesn't like God's rules, and since you are on God's side that you are just as bad.
The funny part is... That's no different than a clay doll getting made at it's artist because it doesn't agree with how big the artist made it's head.
Regardless of what the clay doll thinks, the artist is going to do what the artist wants. Accept it or not.
shiningcross 2 years ago
Except it's more like this, the artist knows everything he is omniscient, so he knows the past present and the future, and he knows when he creates the world of clay dolls, that he is dooming many to eternal suffering, a sadistic act, he knows he is creating us with original sin, why would a loving god want to hurt anything? It makes no sense.
stankylittleangus 2 years ago
This bitch war between you two is boring. And seems to be about nothing
thornisdan 2 years ago
You're a bad person, Jack!
theman77777777232 2 years ago
Can anyone say straw man? I never chose to not believe in god. I REALIZED that I don't believe in god. I am simply unconvinced of the existence of god.
I remember TAA asking the atheists in his audience a long time ago "If you could go back to believing in god, would you?" I remember one saying she wishes that she could still believe.
Now why would she have the desire to believe yet not believe if she could believe? Your argument is completely invalid.
CWScreepingcharlie 2 years ago
Exactly, I have no reason to believe, and quiet honestly the whole idea of hell sounds more like a con job, scare someone into believing soimething they wouldn't normally.
Lets not forget that if Jesus exists, he probably isn't stupid enough to fall for someone worshipping him just in case.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
The point he was making is that if you do not judge a deity, who would condemn those who do not believe in his improbable existence without absolute evidence to eternal unhappiness and/or torture, as being an evil entity and if you support the behavior of an evil entity or work in the service of an evil that makes you evil yourself and, therefore, not a good person. I am inclined to agree with that line of reasoning.
SSanf 2 years ago
While you may see your efforts to help people avoid the wrath of the evil entity as being an act of goodness, lending your support to evil in any way makes you evil, too. If everyone universally rejected his plan what would your god do then? Would he send us all to hell leaving himself, yet again, alone in the universe?
SSanf 2 years ago
He clearly does not want that. He wants to be surrounded by a bunch of ego inflating yes men (with free will LOL!). Perhaps to save himself from his own miserable fate without mankind, he would come up with a better plan. Send him back to the drawing board if you really do believe in him. If you dont really believe in him, let this religion fade into obscurity like most human religions have done. Frankly, it isnt one of the better ones.
SSanf 2 years ago
And, let me ask you this, Jack. Let's say you exclude torture as being a part of being in hell. Would you, then, want to spend eternity in the companionship of an evil entity? I certainly would not.
SSanf 2 years ago
i havent seen the vid u are responded 2, but from what u've said, maybe what he is saying is:
(if a person 'willingly serves' a tyrant that he knows would torture his children, he himself must be a morally flawed person. )
peace
dankwilliams 2 years ago
Superfly does not deserve your attention Jack.
Another note. some christians say that god sends the person to hell, and some christians say that hell is a consequence of you actions. One is a threat, and one is a warning. You really need to get your position on that articulated in a clear manner first, otherwise you may be (which it appears) to be arguing past each other. just my opinion
cjunk351 2 years ago
Well to be honest, there really is no difference, god still sets the rules, and still arbitrarily decides that some don't get punished for eternity others do. It still comes down to, worship Jesus, or burn for eternity in both cases. God set the rules about sin and such, of course his forgiveness is meaningless, I go out and kill someone, his forgiving me for doing it doesn't mean jack ****, because the person is still dead, he's done nothing.
wolfwing1 2 years ago
Well of course. But unless that is first understood (which position he thinks is true), argueing against it as being unjust to a person who thinks its mere consweunce will get one no where. |If Jack thinks its consequence and makes that clear, then you argue against that . Neither one is true in my opinion, but it helps when communicating to be specific and clear on these things.
cjunk351 2 years ago
Excellent points athywren.
TheNakedAtheist 2 years ago
That Jack is "evil" does seem a very dubious statement.
However, the concept that Jack and other Christians put forward as their "God," is a belief system of highly dubious morality. "Either worship me and live in paradise forever, of burn in the pits of Hell forever. Your choice, which I've already knew before you were even created." With an god like that, who needs a devil?
davidbpearson2 2 years ago
According to you (by which I mean christians in general) none of us are good people. You take great pleasure in informing us that we will suffer for all eternity. You go to great pains to point out that it is a wonderful thing that we will suffer in this way.
You're basically complaining because the same accusation has been returned to you with better justification.
Btw, we do not CHOOSE not to believe in your god, in exactly the same way that you do not choose not to believe in anasi or zeus.
athywren 2 years ago
All humans are born in sin and deserve eternal hellfire including babies and all the Jews that were tortured and murder by Hitler. Christian theology is repulsive and people that ascribe to it are morally bankrupt.
lb10128 2 years ago
I think you are a great messenger my friend!
AwokenSpirit 2 years ago
nice hair cut ! and omG where is your beard ! you trimmed it ? laaaame ;-)
volkan63 2 years ago