I thought the main argument of the age of reason was that the bible is total bullshit because it's a immoral,cruel book that contradicts itself in so many ways it is ridiculous and blasphemous.
i somehow think that we will only bring religious people out of the dark ages by showing all the superstition and fictitious stories in the bible and pointing out how it was ultimately used as a means of contol.
You forgot that the Catholics have a different version than the protestants. Don't the Coptic Christians and the Orthodox Christians have different version also?
@TheKilgoretrout Yes the protestant version comes from the british protestant revolution. I forgot which king but he rebelled against the church and set up the first sub branch of christianity; protestantism. So keeping this in mind it just makes any chance of the king james bible being anywhere near true infinitesmal.
BTW: someone dying of crucifixion would be say NOTHING just before they "gave up the ghost". Because crucifixion prevents one from EXHALING. No exhaling, no vocalizing. No vocalizing, no last words.
Something I have been meaning to do. It is fascinating how the beliefs of those who follow this particular religion don't match in the least with the historical facts ... and I just love the KJV crowd. There's a tiny church nearby that proudly boasts its strict adherence that mistranslation. Oh brother.
By comparison, Islam and Mormonism are FAR more coherent. Not that it makes either of those religions any more palatable.
After watching this video i heard a little voice saying..."but god protected the scripture trough time "...and right after that a small farting sound as logic ,reason and askegg's hard work disappears in the Sahara of irrationality..
Not overstating too much,a re you? You are confusing the difference between what actually happened and the corruption of the text. They are two quite different problems (you esp. conflate them in the conclusion). As far as the text of the individual NT texts goes, there are probably no really serious problems. If they truly represent Jesus' ministry is another matter.
@HConstantine "As far as the text of the individual NT texts goes, there are probably no really serious problems. If they truly represent Jesus' ministry is another matter"
That's the entire problem, isn't it? You have no idea what the stories about Jesus really ARE, since we do not have the original texts.
It is true that many scribes were slaves, but they were still professional in the sense that all of their labor was used in copying and were trained accordingly (it would have made them more valuable than household slave). I don;t think your idea about illiterate scribes will be able to find much evidence or good argument.
@Raptor302 What the scribes did is hardly surprising. When any one of us read anything we interpret the texts and try to make sense of what the author is trying to say. If we were to repeat the process in modern times we would see the same phenomenon. People try to clarify and explain the meaning *they* receive from the words - it's the process of language and communication.
For an alternative take on the Jebus myth, I suggest you read Hyam Maccoby's "Jesus and the Jewish Resistance" and "The Problem of Paul." You can find abridged versions at positiveatheism (dot) org (slash) hist (slash) maccoby (dot) htm, maccoby2 (dot) htm and maccoby3 (dot) htm.
Your statement that [paraphrased] "the more difficult the reading the closer to the original because later versions simplified away the inconsistencies" is one school of thought.
Another, especially applicable in books that existed only in verbal form for 70 years, is that those things which contradict the author's clear intent are closer to the original story. The contradictions couldn't be dropped because people already knew them, so they had to be papered over when the story changed.
Apparently in ancient Greek the closest word for 'illiterate' was 'slow writer', which to me suggests the idea that those who could copy but not understand.
There's also the fact that editing a text was often considered perfectly acceptable- the ancients has different notions of authorship/ ownership. In Greek work there are some glaringly obvious examples of explanatory notes (that the original author would never have needed or written) being added at some later stage.
This god, (who ever he/it is) must be painfully weak to have to talk to his creatures as you as through the pen of common man. As failible as people are, how could anyone ever think the same message remains in the thousnads of years and copies later? I have pity on anyone who whould think it is so.
I understand what you are saying in these videos. But current Christians would still say that there is no flaw in the Bible because it was God was speaking to the writers of the Bible, therefore, there is no way that there can be errors. What I would like for current Christians to do, is take a little known line from the Bible, and use that in a game of Telephone and see how the line changes. If they are being driven by God, then the line should NOT change AT ALL.
@incoherentpoet when they talk like that I simply point them to Genisis10:24 vs Luke 3:35,36 and ask them who She'lah's father was. There they are cornered into saying scribal error. Which is like saying yes it's wrong but the heart of the message is inerrant. from there it's onto human sacrifice Judges 11:29-40 and god interfering in free will Exodus 11:10
@Samuria11 Well a scribal error is still an error. And if God was whispering into the writers ears, then shouldn't both lines have the same person as She'lah's father? If God is inerrant, then his book should be inerrant, free of any scribal error. Scribal error, to me, means that it was written by men who are capable of making mistakes, without the help of divine intervention.
@incoherentpoet Agreed, however... if I try to make the poor indoctrinated mind admit this they typically cut the conversation off. That's not what I'm going for normally.
Once I'm onto the other two topics, I'll call them out on their red herrings, appeals to authority, etc. My goal is rarely to change this persons mind as I've found that's impossible... It's to have the silent majority reading these exchanges figure out for themselves who is being more reasonable.
(continued from previous post) Granted you left out how fragmentary the source documents are, which scholars use to create translations of modern Bibles, as well as the fact that we have NO WHOLE copies of the original manuscripts of the Gospels (which date 30 to 60 years after Christs death), but ones hundred years removed from the date of authorship. Yet, I still wish I had this video 15 years ago, when I was researching the Bible. It would have helped me out a lot.
@askegg Yeah, I know that you were limited on time, and that was the reason you could not include all of that. I didn't mean to sound overly critical. Like I said before, this video was highly informative, and it is a great primer for those who are just starting to investigate the claims of apologists who claim that the Bible is infallible. I plan to point many Christians, who still are naive about the problems of Bible, towards your video. Thanks.
Askegg, this was a great series, especially for those who are not familiar with the host of problems that exist with the Bible. You covered most of the problems, such as the propensity for errors and embellishment to occur in a message that is being transmitted through oral tradition and the copying of scribes, the pseudepigraphic nature of the names attached to the Gospels, and the ability for those with power to purposely alter the text towards their aims(continued).
You really should look up the "Wicked Bible" online. Printed in the 17th century, it had the most hilariously embarrassing misprint you could imagine for the Bible, and caused church authorities to frantically hunt down every surviving copy and immolate them all, so that the offending copy could no longer corrupt the people. Only about 10 survive now and they are almost priceless.
I don't think most Christians care whether or not the words, or even stories, are accurate. How often have you heard a Christian apologist say that an atheist is reading something "out of context" when the passage happens to run counter to their particular belief. Most of them start with a belief of some sort and then look for biblical passages that match that belief with all else relegated to the irrelevant category.
@DeoVacuus I have yet to add the text to the video to credit Bart Ehrman. I would have done so in the video but totally ran out of time (unless I spilled into 3 parts).
I've been saying as much for years, but unlike askegg I couldn't be arsed to do the research, so you have my thanks and gratitude for making this excellent video.
Very well done. The worst part is that when you were naming all of the English versions of the Bible...you left out so many more!
The only thing that I would have liked for you to have included was more on the canonization of the Bible and the books that got left out. But I know how that goes...you were already at 20 minutes of material.
I thought the main argument of the age of reason was that the bible is total bullshit because it's a immoral,cruel book that contradicts itself in so many ways it is ridiculous and blasphemous.
ForYeensSake 11 months ago
exactly why my faith crumbled: the absolute,inspired,inerrant validity of the bible was destroyed.
practicalmagic9 1 year ago
excellent job askegg, and I don't believe you even mentioned the translations from Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English of the King James either.
erandonandied 1 year ago
3:27 Just to back up your point, there is no translation for mind numbing in greek. Hence you would only translate, a tedious and boring process.
Titania1 1 year ago
i somehow think that we will only bring religious people out of the dark ages by showing all the superstition and fictitious stories in the bible and pointing out how it was ultimately used as a means of contol.
NotTooObvious 1 year ago
You forgot that the Catholics have a different version than the protestants. Don't the Coptic Christians and the Orthodox Christians have different version also?
TheKilgoretrout 1 year ago
@TheKilgoretrout True, but I already had 20 minutes of material. Perhaps a future video will address these issues.
askegg 1 year ago
@TheKilgoretrout Yes the protestant version comes from the british protestant revolution. I forgot which king but he rebelled against the church and set up the first sub branch of christianity; protestantism. So keeping this in mind it just makes any chance of the king james bible being anywhere near true infinitesmal.
Satanicallyfree 1 year ago
Excellent Summary
robineccles 1 year ago
...and, of course, it gets even worse, because early writings not only did not have punctuation, they had no spaces between words!
For example:
andofcourseitgetsevenworsebecausetheearliestwritingsnotonlydidnothavepunctuationtheyhadnospacesbetweenthewords....
BTW: someone dying of crucifixion would be say NOTHING just before they "gave up the ghost". Because crucifixion prevents one from EXHALING. No exhaling, no vocalizing. No vocalizing, no last words.
middlekk 1 year ago
@middlekk True, but I omitted a *lot* just to keep this video to 20 minutes. The best way to cover every point in depth is to read Bart's book.
askegg 1 year ago
@askegg
Something I have been meaning to do. It is fascinating how the beliefs of those who follow this particular religion don't match in the least with the historical facts ... and I just love the KJV crowd. There's a tiny church nearby that proudly boasts its strict adherence that mistranslation. Oh brother.
By comparison, Islam and Mormonism are FAR more coherent. Not that it makes either of those religions any more palatable.
middlekk 1 year ago
Why would any god have to use very human ways of communications?
Would a god not have more efficient and precise means at "his" disposal?
StopSpamming1 1 year ago
After watching this video i heard a little voice saying..."but god protected the scripture trough time "...and right after that a small farting sound as logic ,reason and askegg's hard work disappears in the Sahara of irrationality..
spotteri01 1 year ago
why did god not just provide the book himself??
NotTooObvious 1 year ago
google has a very limited source of the exact quote: "i petaus, the village scribe, have submitted this"
MinervaInTheBrain 1 year ago
Wow, that was a great video!
Wow, that wos a great video!
Wow, that wos a goat widow!
Wom, that wish a fancy chicken!
Clausfarre 1 year ago 2
248 like this and none don´t. Misquote this, if you can! ;)
martialme84 1 year ago
"The King James bible is the unaltered word of god!"
I've heard this so many times..... and every time it is one of the best jokes.
Paxmax 1 year ago
"the Bible is constant, science changes all the time, have faith in jesus!"
Yeah, right.
DesigningDan 1 year ago 2
Comment removed
NotTooObvious 1 year ago
Not overstating too much,a re you? You are confusing the difference between what actually happened and the corruption of the text. They are two quite different problems (you esp. conflate them in the conclusion). As far as the text of the individual NT texts goes, there are probably no really serious problems. If they truly represent Jesus' ministry is another matter.
HConstantine 1 year ago
@HConstantine "As far as the text of the individual NT texts goes, there are probably no really serious problems. If they truly represent Jesus' ministry is another matter"
That's the entire problem, isn't it? You have no idea what the stories about Jesus really ARE, since we do not have the original texts.
askegg 1 year ago 5
It is true that many scribes were slaves, but they were still professional in the sense that all of their labor was used in copying and were trained accordingly (it would have made them more valuable than household slave). I don;t think your idea about illiterate scribes will be able to find much evidence or good argument.
diffiliclior est, rectior est.
HConstantine 1 year ago
@HConstantine "I don;t think your idea about illiterate scribes will be able to find much evidence ...."
Petaus, among others.
askegg 1 year ago
The fact that the bible needs to be interpreted at all is a dead giveaway that it is not of divine origin.
Raptor302 1 year ago 8
@Raptor302 What the scribes did is hardly surprising. When any one of us read anything we interpret the texts and try to make sense of what the author is trying to say. If we were to repeat the process in modern times we would see the same phenomenon. People try to clarify and explain the meaning *they* receive from the words - it's the process of language and communication.
askegg 1 year ago
For an alternative take on the Jebus myth, I suggest you read Hyam Maccoby's "Jesus and the Jewish Resistance" and "The Problem of Paul." You can find abridged versions at positiveatheism (dot) org (slash) hist (slash) maccoby (dot) htm, maccoby2 (dot) htm and maccoby3 (dot) htm.
bdf2718 1 year ago
Your statement that [paraphrased] "the more difficult the reading the closer to the original because later versions simplified away the inconsistencies" is one school of thought.
Another, especially applicable in books that existed only in verbal form for 70 years, is that those things which contradict the author's clear intent are closer to the original story. The contradictions couldn't be dropped because people already knew them, so they had to be papered over when the story changed.
bdf2718 1 year ago
Well done.
y0nd3r 1 year ago
Well done again!
+10
D34dH053 1 year ago
Great vid!
PragnorVorn 1 year ago
Thanks for your work. Very enjoyable!
rediband 1 year ago
Apparently in ancient Greek the closest word for 'illiterate' was 'slow writer', which to me suggests the idea that those who could copy but not understand.
There's also the fact that editing a text was often considered perfectly acceptable- the ancients has different notions of authorship/ ownership. In Greek work there are some glaringly obvious examples of explanatory notes (that the original author would never have needed or written) being added at some later stage.
golddiggingants 1 year ago
Your best work yet!!! And also the best I've seen on YouTube in a LONG time
AJBonkoski 1 year ago 4
@AJBonkoski Thanks :) I was hoping it would go over well because I had not seen this topic tackled anywhere.
askegg 1 year ago
This god, (who ever he/it is) must be painfully weak to have to talk to his creatures as you as through the pen of common man. As failible as people are, how could anyone ever think the same message remains in the thousnads of years and copies later? I have pity on anyone who whould think it is so.
ktorch 1 year ago
fantastic video :)
kolista 1 year ago
Excellent video!
kelliko70 1 year ago
I understand what you are saying in these videos. But current Christians would still say that there is no flaw in the Bible because it was God was speaking to the writers of the Bible, therefore, there is no way that there can be errors. What I would like for current Christians to do, is take a little known line from the Bible, and use that in a game of Telephone and see how the line changes. If they are being driven by God, then the line should NOT change AT ALL.
incoherentpoet 1 year ago
@incoherentpoet There is no way to falsify such a claim, but that won't stop them from making it.
askegg 1 year ago
@incoherentpoet when they talk like that I simply point them to Genisis10:24 vs Luke 3:35,36 and ask them who She'lah's father was. There they are cornered into saying scribal error. Which is like saying yes it's wrong but the heart of the message is inerrant. from there it's onto human sacrifice Judges 11:29-40 and god interfering in free will Exodus 11:10
Samuria11 1 year ago
@Samuria11 Well a scribal error is still an error. And if God was whispering into the writers ears, then shouldn't both lines have the same person as She'lah's father? If God is inerrant, then his book should be inerrant, free of any scribal error. Scribal error, to me, means that it was written by men who are capable of making mistakes, without the help of divine intervention.
incoherentpoet 1 year ago
@incoherentpoet Agreed, however... if I try to make the poor indoctrinated mind admit this they typically cut the conversation off. That's not what I'm going for normally.
Once I'm onto the other two topics, I'll call them out on their red herrings, appeals to authority, etc. My goal is rarely to change this persons mind as I've found that's impossible... It's to have the silent majority reading these exchanges figure out for themselves who is being more reasonable.
Samuria11 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Fantastic
invisibletime 1 year ago
(continued from previous post) Granted you left out how fragmentary the source documents are, which scholars use to create translations of modern Bibles, as well as the fact that we have NO WHOLE copies of the original manuscripts of the Gospels (which date 30 to 60 years after Christs death), but ones hundred years removed from the date of authorship. Yet, I still wish I had this video 15 years ago, when I was researching the Bible. It would have helped me out a lot.
alphacause 1 year ago
@alphacause All valid points. If I tried to cover everything I would have rewritten Bart's book. Perhaps in a follow up.
askegg 1 year ago
@askegg Yeah, I know that you were limited on time, and that was the reason you could not include all of that. I didn't mean to sound overly critical. Like I said before, this video was highly informative, and it is a great primer for those who are just starting to investigate the claims of apologists who claim that the Bible is infallible. I plan to point many Christians, who still are naive about the problems of Bible, towards your video. Thanks.
alphacause 1 year ago
Askegg, this was a great series, especially for those who are not familiar with the host of problems that exist with the Bible. You covered most of the problems, such as the propensity for errors and embellishment to occur in a message that is being transmitted through oral tradition and the copying of scribes, the pseudepigraphic nature of the names attached to the Gospels, and the ability for those with power to purposely alter the text towards their aims(continued).
alphacause 1 year ago
no point repeating this stuff to the faithful for they have faith not logic or reason!!
soulsanctuarymusic1 1 year ago
You really should look up the "Wicked Bible" online. Printed in the 17th century, it had the most hilariously embarrassing misprint you could imagine for the Bible, and caused church authorities to frantically hunt down every surviving copy and immolate them all, so that the offending copy could no longer corrupt the people. Only about 10 survive now and they are almost priceless.
UppruniTegundanna 1 year ago
I don't think most Christians care whether or not the words, or even stories, are accurate. How often have you heard a Christian apologist say that an atheist is reading something "out of context" when the passage happens to run counter to their particular belief. Most of them start with a belief of some sort and then look for biblical passages that match that belief with all else relegated to the irrelevant category.
1140Cecile 1 year ago 2
lol, I like that little clip at the end...
CraniumOnEmpty 1 year ago
It not the new testament unless it in Greek the English versions compete for best English translation
hens0w 1 year ago
Good vid, but I think you need to site Bart Ehrman.
DeoVacuus 1 year ago
@DeoVacuus I have yet to add the text to the video to credit Bart Ehrman. I would have done so in the video but totally ran out of time (unless I spilled into 3 parts).
askegg 1 year ago
@askegg Well done sir.
DeoVacuus 1 year ago
Oh yes.. :) Great video!!
Vogter2100 1 year ago
Fantastic video!!
DJBerber 1 year ago
Well explained, but you haven't addressed the problems of the old testament, like the 4 "authors" E, J, P and D.
DeletedDelusion 1 year ago
I've been saying as much for years, but unlike askegg I couldn't be arsed to do the research, so you have my thanks and gratitude for making this excellent video.
Sarge084 1 year ago
Very well done. The worst part is that when you were naming all of the English versions of the Bible...you left out so many more!
The only thing that I would have liked for you to have included was more on the canonization of the Bible and the books that got left out. But I know how that goes...you were already at 20 minutes of material.
KingHeathen 1 year ago
@KingHeathen I thought I might tackle the formation of the modern Bible in another video.
askegg 1 year ago
@askegg Well then, GET TO WORK! Slacker!
; )
KingHeathen 1 year ago
@KingHeathen Not a video in months and I get is a mouth full of words :/
askegg 1 year ago
@askegg That'll teach ya!
KingHeathen 1 year ago
@KingHeathen
I say askegg for the transitional species award
AJBonkoski 1 year ago
@AJBonkoski No - I have already received it twice.
askegg 1 year ago
Nice vids askegg, that really hammered home a point that I have been trying to make to Christians for a while...
echoesoftruth 1 year ago
Great video!
Uh oh. Come to think of it, this has probably been altered from .ppt to .wmv to h.264 and finally to flash.
I hope its meaning is still intact.
shockferret 1 year ago
@shockferret Good one, LOL. Christians tell me the meaning will only stay intact when the file is in .kjv format, so you'll need the kjv1611 codec.
moveste 1 year ago
. . . and the winner is *drum roll* askegg!
EnervatedSociety 1 year ago 2
Great job!
CousinoMacul 1 year ago
That was fast ;)
kaxitaksi 1 year ago
So what are you saying? The Bible is just the word of people, not God? :-O
God's gonna get you for that!
(relax folks it's just satire)
Orsbore 1 year ago
@Orsbore , Oh, is god ending his 2000 plus year vacation?? Cool!! I wonder what new threat to non-believers he will have. o.O
99minerkc 1 year ago