The Bible, in the Chapter of Genesis describes its building when God ordained Abraham to erect a Shrine for worship when Abraham was ordered to go to the Southern desert with his wife Hagera and infant son Ismael. The Old Testament describes this building as the Shrine of God at several places, but the one built at Ma’amoor is very much similar to the one at Makka. There is no doubt that it was referring to the stone built house at Makka.
If what you say is true, who were the Jews jealous of? Of Muslims? If so, when do you think that jealousy occured to make them want to remove scriptures about Abraham and the Kaaba from the "Book" (which makes "People of the Book")?
No rock gets worshipped in Islam. The Kabaa is simply a focal point for the prayer, we dont worship the building or the black stone. We only worship God and use the Kabaa as a focal point to organize the prayers.
The black stone was sent by God to show adam were to build an alter. It is used to count how many times you went around the Kabaa.
If the Kaaba and the black stone don't get worship, how come the Kaaba is the focal point of prayer and the black stone gets kissed, leading Muslims to believe to kiss it absorbs their sins? Is it because Muhammad kissed the black stone?
Its a focal point simply for the organization of the prayer. Like how the Christians pray towards the alter, and the Jews pray towards the temple wall. None are WORSHIPING it, simply using it for organization.
Also kissing the black stone doesnt absorbs sins, and kissing isnt a sign of worship. I assume youve kissed your mom, wife, etc I also assume youve never worshiped them. The black stone is the first alter that God sent from heaven to show Adam where to pray.
[2:125] We have rendered the shrine (the Ka`aba) a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."
Like I said we are worshipping God, not the Kabaa or anything else. Focal point is for organization only.
[2:125] We have rendered the shrine (the Ka`aba) a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."
Wouldn't it be proof that you WERE worshipping Allah, and, not the black stone, IF you could just pray in, say, your mind and NOT have to face a specific object, like, say, the Kaaba? To say you don't worship the black stone when you HAVE to face it's container, seems to ring hollow. It's as if Allah is contained IN the Kaaba and NOwhere else, thus, again, making the black stone, a focus of worship since it's in the Kaaba. How can this not be the case?
idk about you but I live in America and so even though I face the cardnial direction of the Kaaba my wall is what im actually facing.
2. You do pray in your mind and before you start your prayer you state the intention that this prayer is for God.
3. It organizes all muslims on earth. Just as christians face an alter, and Jews face the wailing wall. Its a very simple almost irrelevant concept that you seem to really struggle with.
"a focus of worship since it's in the Kaaba. How can this not be the case?"
-I mean its as if you are inventing your own faith here. I already stated and even posted scripture stating that the Kaaba and the blackstone is nothing more than a focal point. You are falsely making it more than that, no muslim believes this, the Quran never states this, essentially you are creating a nonexistant argument then using it to debate with me.
Muslims claim it's "only a focal point". However, how can this be the case when it's eternal damnation if you DON'T make it your focal point of prayer, but, pray like a regular Christian, who believes God reads thoughts and, thus, will know you are praying to him?
We dont have to face its container in prayer, we can focus to any side of the kaaba, it has four sides. Above the kaaba is the baitul ma'moor, which is a kaaba for angels. We circumbulate around the kaaba anti clockwise just the same way the planet circumbulates around the sun, anti clockwise. And the sun circumbulates around the throne of God as explained by prophet muhammed. scientists today say, the sun also orbits in what is called the solar apex.
You say you don't have to face it's container, but, isn't the Kaaba what it's container is contained in? To say you don't worship the Kaaba when you can't face anywhere else, seems to ring hollow. Face it, you MAY not be out-right worshipping the black stone, but, you ARE worshipping the Kaaba.
We dont have to face the KAABA, we face it because its the right thing to do. We dont consider the KAABA to be God, neither do we ask for help from it, neither do we direct prayer to it as a mediatory.
Who are you some expert on islam, by your arguements i can see you dont know anything.
"rightiousness is not to face to the east or the west." Quran, "which ever direct you face, there you will find the face of Allah." The kaaba creates unity of purpose in prayer
Mega: (Cont): or, of a Saint or icon, bowing to it in the hopes it will please Allah to keep Allah from sending you to hell. But that's NOT Allah forcing you to worship it, true?
MINOT: neither do we direct prayer to it as a mediatory.
Mega: No, you bow down to it and TREAT it as if Allah is in it in the hopes Allah won't hurt you in the grave, but, reward you in Jenna. Again, you don't see it as being forced by Allah to worship the Kaaba, do you?
This is laughable, you obviously have not done your research, i can stop right now because islam does not preach that Allah is in this house, not at all, its is merely a mosque.
The Quran tells us that Allah, is above heaven, not even in it, above the seven heavens infact and above his throne, which he will sit on on judgment day.
Doesn't the Qur'an say Allah is closer to you than your juglar vein? If so, sounds like Al could be in the Kaaba as well. Especially being that you can't face any other place BUT the Kaaba.
That makes you think you are qualified enough to interpret the Quran? The actual meaning of this verse is that Allah is closer to a man even than himself by his knowledge, Allah knows our very inner most thoughts. You interpreted the verse incorrectly, and that is understandable, because you are probably and christian and are already confused with the idea that God can be within his creation, but such is not the case in reality, nor is this notion believed among muslims.
Where in the Quran does it say that that closer to you than your juglar is "closer to a man even than himself by his knowledge"? You haven't performed bid'ah by saying that, have you? By the way, IF being closer to you than your juglar just means Al knows your innermost thoughts, doesn't that mean Al CAN get into us? HOW would Al know IF Al wasn't inSIDE our minds?
In the very verse you mentioned about the jugular vein. "Verily, we created man, and we know what his soul whispers to him, and we are closer to him than his jugular vein."
Allah knows because he created us, he knows the software and the hardware "and we know" means he knows by his knowledge.
Allah says throught the Quran, that he knows all things. He even knows what every atom is doing, and that not a single leaf falls but he knows it.
Why do you think people pray in congregation? because it increases the blessing, the muslims are told to face this place because it doing this creates a global congregation, and you cant bring people together from different nations unless there is a focul point ie the kaaba with its 4 corners which point towards all directions.
Mega: Did you know that in the "Book" (Bible), you don't have to bow down to something that once held over 300 idols, but can simply pray in your clauset and NOT make a show of it?
IMnotSAS: Why do you think people pray in congregation?
Mega: Because they think they will either please God, or, get something from God.
MINOT: because it increases the blessing,
Mega: Possibly.
MINOT: the muslims are told to face this place because it doing this creates a global congregation,
Mega: I wonder if that was the reason behind Nebuchadrezzer's desire to have Babylonians bowing to the image he created.
MINOT: and you cant bring people together from different nations unless there is a focul point ie the kaaba with its 4 corners which point towards all directions.
Mega: Did you know that there are millions of Catholics in different nations, and, they aren't all pointed at ONE idol at the same time for their focul point? By the way, I'm not Catholic.
Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab (580-644) came to kiss the Stone, he said in front of all assembled: "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] kissing you, I would not have kissed you."
Since the black stone is in the corner of the Kaaba, and, Muslims bow to the Kaaba, how is this NOT bowing to the black stone as well? And, by the way, why is the black stone kissed? Because Muhammad kissed it. And, why did he kiss it?
Thats like saying "well since the wall in your house is in the direction of the Kaaba, and muslims bow to the Kabaa, how is this not bowing to the wall as well. Its all about intentions. When you pray you are bowing and prostrating to God, not the wall, not the Kabaa, not the black stone. It was kissed because it is believed to be a rock from heaven.
He kissed it because, it is a stone from heaven and hence gave it the respect it deserves. kissing someone doesnt mean you worship them, have you ever kissed a women.
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Mirza5100 3 months ago
The Bible, in the Chapter of Genesis describes its building when God ordained Abraham to erect a Shrine for worship when Abraham was ordered to go to the Southern desert with his wife Hagera and infant son Ismael. The Old Testament describes this building as the Shrine of God at several places, but the one built at Ma’amoor is very much similar to the one at Makka. There is no doubt that it was referring to the stone built house at Makka.
kunfayakun1000 7 months ago
@kunfayakun1000
Where does it say Abraham built the Kaaba in the "Book" (Bible)?
MegaBoxer77 6 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
It does talk about the valley bakka, bakka is the ancient name of makka, the Jews removed further verse regarding it because of their jealousy.
IMnotSAS 6 months ago
@IMnotSAS
If what you say is true, who were the Jews jealous of? Of Muslims? If so, when do you think that jealousy occured to make them want to remove scriptures about Abraham and the Kaaba from the "Book" (which makes "People of the Book")?
MegaBoxer77 6 months ago
So there are TWO rocks in Mecca that get veneration. But, it sounds like the Ibrahim rock doesn't get the worship.
MegaBoxer77 1 year ago
@MegaBoxer77
No rock gets worshipped in Islam. The Kabaa is simply a focal point for the prayer, we dont worship the building or the black stone. We only worship God and use the Kabaa as a focal point to organize the prayers.
The black stone was sent by God to show adam were to build an alter. It is used to count how many times you went around the Kabaa.
ACEDcomputers 1 year ago
@ACEDcomputers
If the Kaaba and the black stone don't get worship, how come the Kaaba is the focal point of prayer and the black stone gets kissed, leading Muslims to believe to kiss it absorbs their sins? Is it because Muhammad kissed the black stone?
MegaBoxer77 1 year ago
@MegaBoxer77
Its a focal point simply for the organization of the prayer. Like how the Christians pray towards the alter, and the Jews pray towards the temple wall. None are WORSHIPING it, simply using it for organization.
Also kissing the black stone doesnt absorbs sins, and kissing isnt a sign of worship. I assume youve kissed your mom, wife, etc I also assume youve never worshiped them. The black stone is the first alter that God sent from heaven to show Adam where to pray.
ACEDcomputers 1 year ago
@ACEDcomputers
Where does it say that in the Quran or Hadith?
MegaBoxer77 1 year ago
@MegaBoxer77
[2:125] We have rendered the shrine (the Ka`aba) a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."
ACEDcomputers 1 year ago
@ACEDcomputers
Since a Muslim HAS to pray in one direction, how does that focal point NOT become a place of worship?
MegaBoxer77 10 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
Like I said we are worshipping God, not the Kabaa or anything else. Focal point is for organization only.
[2:125] We have rendered the shrine (the Ka`aba) a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."
ACEDcomputers 10 months ago
@ACEDcomputers
Wouldn't it be proof that you WERE worshipping Allah, and, not the black stone, IF you could just pray in, say, your mind and NOT have to face a specific object, like, say, the Kaaba? To say you don't worship the black stone when you HAVE to face it's container, seems to ring hollow. It's as if Allah is contained IN the Kaaba and NOwhere else, thus, again, making the black stone, a focus of worship since it's in the Kaaba. How can this not be the case?
MegaBoxer77 10 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
"have to face a specific object"
idk about you but I live in America and so even though I face the cardnial direction of the Kaaba my wall is what im actually facing.
2. You do pray in your mind and before you start your prayer you state the intention that this prayer is for God.
3. It organizes all muslims on earth. Just as christians face an alter, and Jews face the wailing wall. Its a very simple almost irrelevant concept that you seem to really struggle with.
ACEDcomputers 10 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
"a focus of worship since it's in the Kaaba. How can this not be the case?"
-I mean its as if you are inventing your own faith here. I already stated and even posted scripture stating that the Kaaba and the blackstone is nothing more than a focal point. You are falsely making it more than that, no muslim believes this, the Quran never states this, essentially you are creating a nonexistant argument then using it to debate with me.
ACEDcomputers 10 months ago
@ACEDcomputers
Muslims claim it's "only a focal point". However, how can this be the case when it's eternal damnation if you DON'T make it your focal point of prayer, but, pray like a regular Christian, who believes God reads thoughts and, thus, will know you are praying to him?
MegaBoxer77 10 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
We dont have to face its container in prayer, we can focus to any side of the kaaba, it has four sides. Above the kaaba is the baitul ma'moor, which is a kaaba for angels. We circumbulate around the kaaba anti clockwise just the same way the planet circumbulates around the sun, anti clockwise. And the sun circumbulates around the throne of God as explained by prophet muhammed. scientists today say, the sun also orbits in what is called the solar apex.
IMnotSAS 6 months ago
@IMnotSAS
You say you don't have to face it's container, but, isn't the Kaaba what it's container is contained in? To say you don't worship the Kaaba when you can't face anywhere else, seems to ring hollow. Face it, you MAY not be out-right worshipping the black stone, but, you ARE worshipping the Kaaba.
MegaBoxer77 6 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
We dont have to face the KAABA, we face it because its the right thing to do. We dont consider the KAABA to be God, neither do we ask for help from it, neither do we direct prayer to it as a mediatory.
Who are you some expert on islam, by your arguements i can see you dont know anything.
"rightiousness is not to face to the east or the west." Quran, "which ever direct you face, there you will find the face of Allah." The kaaba creates unity of purpose in prayer
IMnotSAS 6 months ago
IMINOT: We dont have to face the KAABA,
Mega: You don't? Where does it say in the Qur'an or Hadith you can pray in any direction?
MINOT: we face it because its the right thing to do.
Mega: That seems to be an understatement.
MINOT: We dont consider the KAABA to be God,
Mega: No, you just treat it as Allah, being that you bow down to it as if Allah is housed in it.
MINOT: neither do we ask for help from it,
Mega: Basically, you treat it the way a Catholic treats a statue of Mary
MegaBoxer77 6 months ago
Mega: (Cont): or, of a Saint or icon, bowing to it in the hopes it will please Allah to keep Allah from sending you to hell. But that's NOT Allah forcing you to worship it, true?
MINOT: neither do we direct prayer to it as a mediatory.
Mega: No, you bow down to it and TREAT it as if Allah is in it in the hopes Allah won't hurt you in the grave, but, reward you in Jenna. Again, you don't see it as being forced by Allah to worship the Kaaba, do you?
MINOT: Who are you some expert on Isl
MegaBoxer77 6 months ago
MINOT: Who are you some expert on islam,
Mega: I'm just a student of Islam, studying Islam on the net with Muslims.
MINOT: by your arguements i can see you dont know anything.
Mega: And if I know a lot about Islam? What would that mean to you?
Minot: "rightiousness is not to face to the east or the west."
Mega: No, "rightiousness" seems to mean bowing down (not worshipping?) the Kaaba.
MINOT: Quran, "which ever direct you face, there you will find the face of Allah."
MegaBoxer77 6 months ago
MINOT: Quran, "which ever direct you face, there you will find the face of Allah."
Mega: So, don't look at pigs and dog doodoo, true?
MegaBoxer77 6 months ago
MINOT: The kaaba creates unity of purpose in prayer
Mega: Well, you ARE "not worshipping it" at the same time with a LOT of people.
IMnotSAS: What i am mean by the right thing to do is that Allah himself advises it
Mega: Not forces, just advises?
IMINOT: because he says he "guides whom he wills to a straight way".
Mega: Also says he "guides off as he pleases".
IMINOT: Its all about creating a global congregation united in worship of one God,, for that you need a focul point.
MegaBoxer77 6 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
This is laughable, you obviously have not done your research, i can stop right now because islam does not preach that Allah is in this house, not at all, its is merely a mosque.
The Quran tells us that Allah, is above heaven, not even in it, above the seven heavens infact and above his throne, which he will sit on on judgment day.
IMnotSAS 6 months ago
@IMnotSAS
Doesn't the Qur'an say Allah is closer to you than your juglar vein? If so, sounds like Al could be in the Kaaba as well. Especially being that you can't face any other place BUT the Kaaba.
MegaBoxer77 6 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
That makes you think you are qualified enough to interpret the Quran? The actual meaning of this verse is that Allah is closer to a man even than himself by his knowledge, Allah knows our very inner most thoughts. You interpreted the verse incorrectly, and that is understandable, because you are probably and christian and are already confused with the idea that God can be within his creation, but such is not the case in reality, nor is this notion believed among muslims.
IMnotSAS 6 months ago
@IMnotSAS
Where in the Quran does it say that that closer to you than your juglar is "closer to a man even than himself by his knowledge"? You haven't performed bid'ah by saying that, have you? By the way, IF being closer to you than your juglar just means Al knows your innermost thoughts, doesn't that mean Al CAN get into us? HOW would Al know IF Al wasn't inSIDE our minds?
MegaBoxer77 6 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
In the very verse you mentioned about the jugular vein. "Verily, we created man, and we know what his soul whispers to him, and we are closer to him than his jugular vein."
Allah knows because he created us, he knows the software and the hardware "and we know" means he knows by his knowledge.
Allah says throught the Quran, that he knows all things. He even knows what every atom is doing, and that not a single leaf falls but he knows it.
IMnotSAS 6 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
What i am mean by the right thing to do is that Allah himself advises it because he says he "guides whom he wills to a straight way".
Its all about creating a global congregation united in worship of one God,, for that you need a focul point.
IMnotSAS 6 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
Why do you think people pray in congregation? because it increases the blessing, the muslims are told to face this place because it doing this creates a global congregation, and you cant bring people together from different nations unless there is a focul point ie the kaaba with its 4 corners which point towards all directions.
IMnotSAS 6 months ago
Mega: Did you know that in the "Book" (Bible), you don't have to bow down to something that once held over 300 idols, but can simply pray in your clauset and NOT make a show of it?
IMnotSAS: Why do you think people pray in congregation?
Mega: Because they think they will either please God, or, get something from God.
MINOT: because it increases the blessing,
Mega: Possibly.
MINOT: the muslims are told to face this place because it doing this creates a global congregation,
MegaBoxer77 6 months ago
Mega: I wonder if that was the reason behind Nebuchadrezzer's desire to have Babylonians bowing to the image he created.
MINOT: and you cant bring people together from different nations unless there is a focul point ie the kaaba with its 4 corners which point towards all directions.
Mega: Did you know that there are millions of Catholics in different nations, and, they aren't all pointed at ONE idol at the same time for their focul point? By the way, I'm not Catholic.
MegaBoxer77 6 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab (580-644) came to kiss the Stone, he said in front of all assembled: "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] kissing you, I would not have kissed you."
ACEDcomputers 1 year ago
@ACEDcomputers really is that true
lufffy561 1 year ago
@lufffy561
I wouldnt say it if it wasnt true.
ACEDcomputers 1 year ago
@ACEDcomputers
Does one bow down to his mom five times a day and become threatened with eternal damnation if he doesn't, though?
MegaBoxer77 10 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
None bow down to the black stone, hence what I said in my first post. People only kiss the black stone, thats it.
ACEDcomputers 10 months ago
@ACEDcomputers
Since the black stone is in the corner of the Kaaba, and, Muslims bow to the Kaaba, how is this NOT bowing to the black stone as well? And, by the way, why is the black stone kissed? Because Muhammad kissed it. And, why did he kiss it?
MegaBoxer77 10 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
Thats like saying "well since the wall in your house is in the direction of the Kaaba, and muslims bow to the Kabaa, how is this not bowing to the wall as well. Its all about intentions. When you pray you are bowing and prostrating to God, not the wall, not the Kabaa, not the black stone. It was kissed because it is believed to be a rock from heaven.
ACEDcomputers 10 months ago
@MegaBoxer77
He kissed it because, it is a stone from heaven and hence gave it the respect it deserves. kissing someone doesnt mean you worship them, have you ever kissed a women.
IMnotSAS 6 months ago
the hour is nearing...subhan allah
ESMALLPANJOOL 3 years ago